Print Page - Banned Xbox Live Users Class Action Investigation *Update*

Banned Xbox Live Users Class Action Investigation *Update*
Posted by XanTium | November 18 23:53 EST | News Category: Xbox360

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Abington IP, a law firm specialising in consumer class actions posted this on their website.
*Update* They updated their text (also including HDD Crippling now. Still no diff made between GT and Console Bans however). Here's their new txt:

Quote

An investigation is currently being conducted regarding business practices of Microsoft with respect to its recent cancellation of certain modified Xbox consoles for use with Xbox Live.

As has been reported widely in the media, tens of thousands of Xbox owners have had their modified Xbox consoles banned from Microsoft's online gaming service Xbox Live. Although modification of Xbox consoles is against the terms of use for Xbox/Xbox Live, Microsoft "conveniently" timed the Xbox console ban to occur just after the release of the new Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 game and less than two months after the release of the very popular Halo 3: ODST game. This "convenient" timing may have resulted in more Xbox Live subscription revenues for Microsoft than it would have generated had these Xbox console bans taken place at some time before the release of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 and Halo 3: ODST. Additionally, sales of both Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (published by Activision) and Halo 3: ODST (published by Microsoft Game Studios) would likely have been greatly diminished had the Xbox console ban occurred prior to the release of these games.

Additional *reported* problems resulting from the bans include, but are not necessarily limited to:
* Disabling/altering Xbox functionality *NOT* associated with Xbox Live (HDD functionality for example),
* Disabling/altering Xbox functionality *NOT* associated with piracy,
* Obtaining information from Xbox consoles without permission of the owner,
* There are other problems/consequenses associated with these bans that have been reported here and elsewhere.

As an aside, PIRACY IS A LEGITIMATE CONCERN for Microsoft and other content producers -- however, (to use a poor analogy) Microsoft has chosen to use one of the most indiscriminate "weapons" in its arsenal in an effort to combat piracy -- as a result, the use of this "weapon" has resulted in a great deal of collateral damage -- many people were affected who had nothing to do with piracy and Xbox console functions that have nothing to do with piracy were also affected or disabled. Details aside, Microsoft's bans could have been more measured.

If you are an Xbox Live subscriber, had your modified Xbox console banned from Xbox Live, were not refunded a prorated sum for the time left on your subscription or have experienced other problems as a result of being banned, and would like to participate in a class action against Microsoft, please submit your information below.

Full Story/Submit Form: abingtonlaw.com

Interesting. Nothing in regards to corrupting hard drive files or the removal of the ability to install to the hard drive though.

QUOTE(The_Flash @ Nov 19 2009, 06:01 AM)

Interesting. Nothing in regards to corrupting hard drive files or the removal of the ability to install to the hard drive though.

yea, I'm surprised too ... the HDD Crippling would make more sense than what they are trying to go after.
They are probably clueless about the whole thing ... maybe someone should inform them.

Hahaha, i love it lol, i'm getting in on this

And yeah, I think a good part of the case might be a friend witbout live hooked up a hard drive to a banned console not knowing about hard drive corruption, signed in, then back in his xbox and then his profile is corrupt and he cannot recover it because no live.

I do not agree with this crap at all. It's simple if you mod your 360 it will get banned plain and simple. I agree with what Microsoft has done. Everyone by now should know the risks of modding your xbox, and if you understand the risks then you should wine, cry, or whatever when Microsoft bans your console. If you really must mod an xbox keep it offline and buy one just for online play. I mean if you mod it your going to end up buying another one anyways.

While I don't like frivolous lawsuits, I believe this class action lawsuit will only benefit the community as a whole. I also believe it's a legitimate lawsuit. The most important bit of information I gathered from this is "were not refunded a prorated sum for the time left on your subscription". Microsoft could have prevented this suit but they got a little too greedy and thus may end up paying for it in the end. I realize their TOS may have covered them in situations like this but a lot of people fail to realize that while a TOS may hold some sort of legal protection it certainly isn't bulletproof. Such a clause in their TOS could be deemed unfair and I'm assuming that's the primary complaint here. I'd urge anyone banned who didn't receive a refund for the remainder of their subscription term to forward their information but that's just me. Realistically, even if this case is won you'll only see a few dollars but it'll most likely improve Xbox Live in the process. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by sgr215: Nov 19 2009, 06:11 AM

Yeah, it doesn't seem like the Law firm knows anything about the bannings, just that lots of 360's were banned.
The live account is still active but the modded xbox can't use the account to access it. And I believe that MS will refund the money from LIVE that is not used.
I think they are mixing up the EARLY GAME PLAY gamertag ban with the xbox mod ban.
In either case, I think if they look into this area, that they could come up with interesting way to spin to make a class action suit.

This post has been edited by tactical: Nov 19 2009, 06:10 AM

I just want to point out that it is talking about Live service, not the console itself. We all know they are not banning gamertags! That would be foolish since you could easily spend $50 to get back online on the modded systems!

This is a real low for this community! Before you come back screaming and bitching"I didnt do that" or Cry foul, I am not talking about all of you, just MOST of you. I don't care if you modded your box, or if you own legit copies that you back-up! MOST of you need to man up and move on! I know that is pretty much not going to happen! it is more disturbing to me that there are dozens of identical posts because YOU, yes YOU cannot scroll down and find the thread that already exists and add to it. Instead, you start up a duplicate thread, potentially burying important information!

GROW UP PEOPLE! YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE! Those of you getting all defensive claiming you are innocent just reminds me of "HEY STUPID" and you are the one that looks!

As for the lawsuit, make sure you really know what you are signing up for! For most of you, like the TOS, it will be something you will skim over and click ok, only to face the sad reality that you are only digging a deeper hole!

Honestly, I see no good coming of this. The TOS for Live are very clear and if you were using a modded console with a legit backup or a non-legit one there is no difference. You chose to modify their hardware and use it on Live. While I'm not happy about it, MS owes us no refund, partial or full. The HDD crippling is crappy on their part, yes, but again, it is their hardware to do with as they please.

And for the record, yes, I was banned too.

And please don't forget to send all the information so Micro$oft can counter sue you for copyright infringement

QUOTE(Puffer @ Nov 19 2009, 06:10 AM)

Honestly, I see no good coming of this. The TOS for Live are very clear and if you were using a modded console with a legit backup or a non-legit one there is no difference. You chose to modify their hardware and use it on Live. While I'm not happy about it, MS owes us no refund, partial or full. The HDD crippling is crappy on their part, yes, but again, it is their hardware to do with as they please.

And for the record, yes, I was banned too.

Once you buy it its your hardware. While this lawsuit is stupid, as modding the system clearly violates the TOS and they are perfectly allowed to ban you for that. The HDD crippling though is something that would be a much more reasonable complaint. A piece of hardware had its abilities lessened because you violated an agreement that had nothing to do with that piece of removable external hardware.

QUOTE(Puffer @ Nov 19 2009, 12:10 AM)

The HDD crippling is crappy on their part, yes, but again, it is their hardware to do with as they please.

Not theirs, mine, I bought and paid for it

QUOTE(tactical @ Nov 18 2009, 11:09 PM)

Yeah, it doesn't seem like the Law firm knows anything about the bannings, just that lots of 360's were banned.
The live account is still active but the modded xbox can't use the account to access it. And I believe that MS will refund the money from LIVE that is not used.
I think they are mixing up the EARLY GAME PLAY gamertag ban with the xbox mod ban.
In either case, I think if they look into this area, that they could come up with interesting way to spin to make a class action suit.

If your gamertag was banned for playing a game early, any lawyer would jump on the case, provided you can give 1 very simple piece of evidence. A RECEIPT, from the store, where you bought your legitimate retail copy of the game, before the official street date! In this case, with your lawyer behind you, M$ might be inclined to correct your specific issue, as they now have proof to go after the retailer. Here they can fine or seek action against an entity they know they can hurt!

So, with that said, how many people here have a banned gamertag and a receipt? I am sure 99.99999999% of the people here don't even have a banned GT. As for receipts, lol!

Lets not forget that the HDD installs are NOT part of the original functionality of the hardware, but an added benefit given by MS through a system update. So, technically, no they didn't limit the hardware, they returned it to its original state.

QUOTE(biscoito @ Nov 19 2009, 01:11 AM)

And please don't forget to send all the information so Micro$oft can counter sue you for copyright infringement

Just so people aren't scared off from handing over their information:

This person clearly doesn't understand the legal system. Your information will be safe and a counter-suit wouldn't even apply here. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence of a copyright violation on Xbox Live but rather evidence you've modified your console to play "backed up games". There is no evidence to show you're playing a pirated game versus a legitimate, backed up game. Luckily modifying your console isn't illegal... yet.

Nice try at scaring people off though.

Is it just me or do the words 'waste of time' spring to mind..

and for the record, I was banned with 9 months to go on my sub.. oh well

Wow this is a bullshit lawsuit

We don't know what LAWS are on the books and if MS crossed the LINE. We don't know. Law is specialized AREA and even if MS tells you something which they can do, it doesn't mean it will hold up in a court of LAW.
Messing up hard drive is one area that I would like to investigate as to whether something you own can be dis-abled like that. I don't know and you don't unless you studied this AREA of the LAW.

MS has lawyers that were consulted at every step and they believe it would hold up in a court of LAW, but , who knows, taking them to court will let us know if it holds up.

Also, in cross examination would come up with method of checking they are doing. And hopefully the LAW firm will find people that were BANNED and shouldn't have been. If it can find a few people that were BANNED and can prove they didn't do anything wrong, that could have big impact on MS.

QUOTE(XanTium @ Nov 19 2009, 06:04 AM)

yea, I'm surprised too ... the HDD Crippling would make more sense than what they are trying to go after.
They are probably clueless about the whole thing ... maybe someone should inform them.

+1
being banned from live is just what we deserve for modding. The crippling thing is much more likely to succeed in a lawsuit, as it's diminushing the console capacbilities for a non-suscribed use...

This is frivolous. You broke TOS by modding so they ban your console, NOT your gamertag. They don't owe you shit because your live account is still valid. You can still access live, just not on that modded console. Now if they were talking about peoples gamertag's that got banned, that might be a little different, but even then you still broke TOS so they could hit back at you with a breach of contract. It's a no win situation and a waste of time.

how are they screwing with your harddrive? they block a feature not make your harddrive unusable.

QUOTE(OmegaSix @ Nov 19 2009, 06:21 AM)

This is frivolous. You broke TOS by modding so they ban your console, NOT your gamertag. They don't owe you shit because your live account is still valid. You can still access live, just not on that modded console. Now if they were talking about peoples gamertag's that got banned, that might be a little different, but even then you still broke TOS so they could hit back at you with a breach of contract. It's a no win situation and a waste of time.

I agree. There's no getting out of this.

If it means that Microsoft refund Live subs to those with banned consoles, that's good. The only ones whining that it's not good are the "I'm alright Jacks" who aren't banned, because they're all goody-two-shoes who've never done a thing wrong in their lives. Apparently.

QUOTE(makavelif50 @ Nov 18 2009, 09:06 PM)

I do not agree with this crap at all. It's simple if you mod your 360 it will get banned plain and simple. I agree with what Microsoft has done. Everyone by now should know the risks of modding your xbox, and if you understand the risks then you should wine, cry, or whatever when Microsoft bans your console. If you really must mod an xbox keep it offline and buy one just for online play. I mean if you mod it your going to end up buying another one anyways.

I think what a lot of people are upset about, myself included, is the removal of functionality, deletion of data, and corruption of hard drives. It's not just being removed from their service it's one great big fuck you from Microsoft.

I'm surprised so many Americans believe legit backups are okay. I'm not an American, but from what I know of the way the DMCA has been applied you are not allowed to make backups. Even if the backups would be considered fair use (which is not that likely imo) modifying hardware to circumvent copyright protection is certainly a violation of the DMCA.

That said, microsoft's error was in not offering these users to prorate refunds. But even then, they banned the hardware and not the gamertags, so these people haven't been denied the ability to access live. Just denied to access it on their modified console.

I have no problem with removing the HDD install functionality. My objection is the corruption of profile data. That's not going to win microsoft any friends.

This post has been edited by SupaDawg: Nov 19 2009, 06:36 AM

1: the Harddrive is 100% fully functional. Nothing has been done to it with the bans

2: The Idiots who are doing this have fucking clue. A console ban is not one in the same as a gamertag ban

3: The data is not "corrupt" is blacklisted from use on another console. Plug your drive back in the banned console and it will work without issue. Its only on different consoles that you get the corrupt data results. *At least this what I have gathered is the case)

Why in the fucks name did this make the front page.
I hope the judge dis0bars the entire firm over this.

This post has been edited by No_Name: Nov 19 2009, 06:40 AM

What about those who got their GAMERTAG banned due to hack, cheat, etc... Does M$ refund their remaining Gold subscribtions and Microsoft Points balance that they bought using a prepaid card ? I think they don't, so that would be a reason for suing the crap out of Microsoft

Two facts people whining about the complaint need to be aware of:

1) There is no suit... yet. It's simply being researched.

2) In regards to the law, banning a console could be considered the same as banning your live account; depending on the judges interpretation. A console ban would effectively remove your ability to play on live unless you do one of two things;

a) Own more than one 360

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Buy another 360

Again, this could be considered unjust depending on the judge. Some of you tend to think your interpretation of the law is the law. Furthermore, a TOS doesn't void all liability but rather acts as a shield which can, and often is, legally scrutinized.

This post has been edited by sgr215: Nov 19 2009, 06:49 AM

wow people...we all knew the risks when we modified our consoles.

beware - that website is not secure so your personal information is not safe

class action law suits are stupid....you're not the one that will be on the winning end, it's the lawyers.....even if you get back your measly $50 xbox live subscription, the lawyers will walk away with millions....

It seems more like the lawsuit is because the law firm is saying that M$ knew about these systems that were modded but waited to ban people to try and make more money since Halo ODST and MW2 came out within a few months of each other so M$ wanted to make people have to buy new systems because of being banned. I have a banned system and see nothing wrong with M$ saying I cannot play on that system online, but the fact that they seem to wait until the holiday times seems suspicious that they don't, or didn't, do this ban wave in like June or April, but waited until holiday bundles and the MW2 system came out to do it. That is the only part I don't like and I can see how any law firm would see that and say they are trying to bump sales during Christmas shopping time and during the launch of what may be the best selling game of all time in MW2. I think when we all see the sales numbers for the 3 big companies for the month of November and December, the 360 will be on tops again which only makes M$ look good during the biggest shopping time of the year. October they were below the other two big consoles. Maybe that is the big reason for a lawsuit is because of M$ doing the bans right now to inflate numbers. It's just a thought as to why any sort of lawsuit would come now so I am in no way saying this is the reason, just a thought that's all.

QUOTE(Puffer @ Nov 19 2009, 06:17 AM)

Lets not forget that the HDD installs are NOT part of the original functionality of the hardware, but an added benefit given by MS through a system update. So, technically, no they didn't limit the hardware, they returned it to its original state.

Lets not forget that update that makes the HDD installs possible will be spread out also on gamedisks, and is indeed a added benefit given by MS through gamedisks.
They UPgreaded the hardware and now took a hammer and smashed the HDD, they returned it to the original state.

ok how about this example? You are a father of a 12 or 16 year old. You obviously have to pay the subscription fees for your son/daughter... The xbox gets banned and/or the live account with it. You have no idea why because you never did anything with it (maybe the kids did).. Anyway you call microsoft to get your money back because you just purchased 12 months on live 2 weeks before the banning and now your children can't play it.

The person who paid never did anything wrong and they were the one who abide by the contact.. The kids can't be held accountable and the parents didn't do anything wrong..

Shouldn't they get their money back for time they didn't use?

I think that's more what this lawsuit is protecting. The kids who use the xbox 360's aren't always the ones paying the bills.

QUOTE(phistyle @ Nov 19 2009, 01:11 AM)

class action law suits are stupid....you're not the one that will be on the winning end, it's the lawyers.....even if you get back your measly $50 xbox live subscription, the lawyers will walk away with millions....

Yes, but Microsoft will likely not be able to ban us anymore. Still a win IMHO

Of the many things people sue for, I'm surprised it took this long for this one to happen. I mean, disk scratching? Unless you're epileptic and need to cling to the xbox while playing a game, your disk isn't going to scratch.

@dezfarfa - Calm down killer. Some of us don't feel like reading an article when we could be doing other things. It's common to read a headline and make an assumption. Is it really such a big deal that you need to go nazi?

Also about the "re-distributing". If I didn't get my own console back *fixed* I got back a brand new one. I've sent in four "used" consoles so far. Don't know where you get your information.

Don't ask me why I know it was my console I got back

This message pertains to any ignorant fool that posted reply's in this thread saying that M$ is right and this lawsuit is bogus! How did you all pass to the 1st grade? Read the details of the suit! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PROCESS OF BANNING MODIFIED CONSOLES! RATHER THE TIMING OF M$ SHUTTING THE ACCOUNTS DOWN WAS TOO CONVENIENT! Let me break it down in leymens terms because I'm sure there will still be some ignorant posts to follow. M$ already had a database filled with those of whom there consoles were modified for quite some time now! They found it in there best interest to wait until the end of the year and take action during the holidays in which blockbuster games were set to be released to make profits skyrocket ten fold. How you might ask? Well, people that have banned consoles are going to purchase ANOTHER console! Not just an Arcade 360 but one with a new HD, meaning $299 straight out of pocket! That on top of the purchase of MW2! If any of you remember the ban that took place last year was also around this time. COINCIDENCE? OF COURSE NOT!! M$ has thee best marketing group on the face of this planet! EVERYTHING IS SET UP TO MAKE MORE MONEY! Let's not forget about the RROD. All M$ did is avoid legal action by increasing there warranty 3 years only to redistribute refurbished consoles with the EXACT SAME PROBLEM! M$ never addressed the core issue! We assume that the Jasper is finally a revision that will out due a 3 year or less life span! Seriously, people M$ does not deserve any sympathy or compassion! Educate yourselves!

This post has been edited by dezfarfa: Nov 19 2009, 07:39 AM

Well DAMN! I never that one coming! Fact is that such class action definately does have potential to be successful!

A) By corrupting your saves for use on other consoles they are technically damaging your property.

Banning a console from life for violating the tos would be viewed by many in the legal community as blocking the owner of the console from the service and would require a refund as returning access to the service technically costs $200 and that valuation exceeds the value of the service cost.

C) The install feature is included in all new units and is therefore retroactive on all old units. I.e. it is a feature that one paid for in the purchase of the 360 (free updates) and therefore microsoft can not technically deprive you of this garnered functionality (once given)without violating the consumer protection act as well as possibly a number of other laws.

D) Microsoft has crossed the line as much as those who have modded their boxes and two wrongs don't make a right in court.

E) proving you used your modded xbox360 for copyright infringement is a very difficult and costly proposition as they would have to literally catch you with physical copies of the game. Searching hard drives, houses, etc for said evidence would be time consuming and cost exhorbitant amounts of money, as well as violate privacy laws. Microsoft may have a lot of money but they don't have enough to sustain this type of action. As for records of playing possible burned games. It would be a battle of the experts and without physical evidence would end up being all uphill for microsoft.

F) As much as people are like "you took the risk modding your box quit whining", I'd like to remind them that no matter what no one is above the law, not even Microsoft, so banning people people is completely legal but changing the functionality of the modded 360 in regards to the hard drive is essentially damaging the product. And for those who keep going the hard drive isn't damaged, you are correct it is physical nand in the 360 that has been damaged, and the corrupted saves and profiles are damaged which is a biproduct of what for all intents and purpose was an illegal middle finger from microsoft. Yes I say illegal because it is.

The refund factor does play into the the idea that even with a legit customer bans which does and has happened M$ response will and has been " Your account is not banned just your system , recovering your gamertag on a unmodified system will allow you to use it" so basicly there telling people to use what they paid for they need to spend another $200 on hardware to access there pre paid purchase.

I could care less about a class action suit for sub refunds most true pirates spend more then $50 a pop on burnable media. I got my money back by canceling my account as soon as I was banned so I am squared away with M$ for my sub. The more important factor that this lawsuit doesn't cover is the paid arcade titles that people have paid money for that M$ has cut them off from.

As for people hesitant about signing up for a lawsuit for fear M$ will ger there personal info , M$ can just pull it from there servers , I bet 50% if not more of people who were banned paid for subs or other content from their credit cards

Guys, I can't believe im saying this...

...but unless the HDD crippling and Media Center crippling is brought into this, I think we need to stand up for Microsoft here.

MS had every right to ban systems, regardless of what date they did it.

QUOTE(Puffer @ Nov 19 2009, 06:10 AM)

Honestly, I see no good coming of this. The TOS for Live are very clear and if you were using a modded console with a legit backup or a non-legit one there is no difference. You chose to modify their hardware and use it on Live. While I'm not happy about it, MS owes us no refund, partial or full. The HDD crippling is crappy on their part, yes, but again, it is their hardware to do with as they please.

And for the record, yes, I was banned too.

I agree MS can do what they want with their service....but I PAID for my xbox...and my hdd..... the TOS doesnt say anyhting about HDD crippling..... Im not a lawyer but I dont think a company can amend their TOS without the end user first agreeing to the terms.... MS may have goofed that part up and since the Federal Government just LOVES em soooo much......... I guess they'll wind up losing SOMETHING..... we'll see.

Let see people if you were able to put the original dashboard
included in the 360 into a brand new jasper do you guys think
it will be able to install games to the HDD???

If you intelligently answered NO then stop crying about the HDD feature
crippling, i know it is mean from M$ but they can do it as it has never being a
100% hardware feature.

And im so surprise for the reading comprehension in this thread,
for god sake they are investigating into timing of the bans not why
you guys were banned or what features they took from you.

This post has been edited by prmaster: Nov 19 2009, 08:08 AM

QUOTE(xrkahn76 @ Nov 19 2009, 05:09 AM)

I just want to point out that it is talking about Live service, not the console itself. We all know they are not banning gamertags! That would be foolish since you could easily spend $50 to get back online on the modded systems!
This is a real low for this community! Before you come back screaming and bitching"I didnt do that" or Cry foul, I am not talking about all of you, just MOST of you. I don't care if you modded your box, or if you own legit copies that you back-up! MOST of you need to man up and move on! I know that is pretty much not going to happen! it is more disturbing to me that there are dozens of identical posts because YOU, yes YOU cannot scroll down and find the thread that already exists and add to it. Instead, you start up a duplicate thread, potentially burying important information!
GROW UP PEOPLE! YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE! Those of you getting all defensive claiming you are innocent just reminds me of "HEY STUPID" and you are the one that looks!

As for the lawsuit, make sure you really know what you are signing up for! For most of you, like the TOS, it will be something you will skim over and click ok, only to face the sad reality that you are only digging a deeper hole!

What about the people who've got unmodded consoles & have been banned? Got one in our office at work, store he bought Forza 3 from broke the street date & he played it a few hours early. Result = banned.
He's done nothing wrong.

Epic fail. Bottom line is if you wanna mod your box then keep it off live. I dont blame Microsoft. Hell I pay for my subscription and games. I dont want to play with some hacks that may have hacked the game or what ever. Who know. But these people are tards for putting hacked 360's on live anyway.

QUOTE(americanv8 @ Nov 19 2009, 12:06 AM)

What about the people who've got unmodded consoles & have been banned? Got one in our office at work, store he bought Forza 3 from broke the street date & he played it a few hours early. Result = banned.
He's done nothing wrong.

if he was banned for playing a legit copy of forza 3 early and not for modding his console, then he should be able to submit a copy of his receipt to xbox and be unbanned. at least, that was the rumor. forza 3 bans happened before the modded console wave ban.

QUOTE(americanv8 @ Nov 19 2009, 08:06 AM)

What about the people who've got unmodded consoles & have been banned? Got one in our office at work, store he bought Forza 3 from broke the street date & he played it a few hours early. Result = banned.
He's done nothing wrong.

stop whining, you know M$ ban people for playing games early, if
the copy was purchase legally he should be able to use the receipt
to get himself back on live.

And you really want M$ to revert a million ban for 50 or so people??? Go
take some statistic classes man.

QUOTE(No_Name @ Nov 18 2009, 10:39 PM)

3: The data is not "corrupt" is blacklisted from use on another console. Plug your drive back in the banned console and it will work without issue. Its only on different consoles that you get the corrupt data results. *At least this what I have gathered is the case)

That qualifies as crippling. I should be able to use MY hard drive, My saves, on any console without the saves being corrupted. M$ is just being a jerk with this.

Hmmm, with a million banned consoles, I wonder how many people actually call up M$ to request a refund. I still have 3 month left on my 1 year subscription and I have no intention of calling them up for like $10 without hassle.

QUOTE(iceman72 @ Nov 19 2009, 02:09 AM)

Epic fail. Bottom line is if you wanna mod your box then keep it off live. I dont blame Microsoft. Hell I pay for my subscription and games. I dont want to play with some hacks that may have hacked the game or what ever. Who know. But these people are tards for putting hacked 360's on live anyway.

Epic fail, if you had any idea what you were talking about, you'd realize that modders have no way of editing game data. Microsoft would like you to believe we are "haxors" so that you can feel better about sucking so hard at Halo 3. No, you just suck.

QUOTE(xbones @ Nov 19 2009, 12:24 AM)

The person who paid never did anything wrong and they were the one who abide by the contact.. The kids can't be held accountable and the parents didn't do anything wrong..

What world do you live in? I may not be a lawyer, but I can tell you with no uncertainty, in the U.S. as a parent, you are 100% responsible for what your kids do(under 18) and while a kid may be sent to Juvi for something serious, a Judge can and will hold the parent liable! Then he will give the parent an earful for not keeping a better eye on their kids. Same thing applies if the kid takes the car without the parents knowledge and wraps it around a light pole!

It is a sad day for this world as you all expect something for nothing and take Zero responsibility for your actions!

QUOTE(tactical @ Nov 18 2009, 09:09 PM)

Yeah, it doesn't seem like the Law firm knows anything about the bannings, just that lots of 360's were banned.
The live account is still active but the modded xbox can't use the account to access it. And I believe that MS will refund the money from LIVE that is not used.
I think they are mixing up the EARLY GAME PLAY gamertag ban with the xbox mod ban.
In either case, I think if they look into this area, that they could come up with interesting way to spin to make a class action suit.

exactly! the subscription is not cancelled without refund. you still have xbox live, just no system to play it on. i think this is stupid! i have had most of customers calling me to get their boxes unbanned, or to put back the original firmware and im getting tired of telling them to screw off, they knew the side effects, and they chose to do it anyways.

its against the TOS and everyone knows it. deal with it.

Only in America!

Seriously, you were banned for knowingly breaching the terms and conditions of xboxlive. Surely your not going to now cry the victim? Everyone I've ever known to mod a console has known the risk of a ban (The amount of post about the very issue goes to back that up, hell there is even softwaqre designed to help hide the fact your using a copied game). It's a sad world where people can't learn to take responsibility for their own actions.

As far as the HDD crippling goes, it's not a factory ability, it was supplied as a feature from connecting to live, so again I fail to see your complaint.

The high failure rate early on and M$ initially refusing to repair or replace is the only complaint that has ever been legitimate. Really people please get a life if you think this class action is resonable on any level.

Additionally, you didn't get a refund as your subscription because it wasn't cancelled, it is fully usuable on a non-banned unmoddified console. So why exactly should you get a refund? You still have full access to it!

PS> Yes I got a console banned.

QUOTE(Puffer @ Nov 18 2009, 11:17 PM)

Lets not forget that the HDD installs are NOT part of the original functionality of the hardware, but an added benefit given by MS through a system update. So, technically, no they didn't limit the hardware, they returned it to its original state.

If you buy a brand-new 360 and take it home, doesn't it have that system update preinstalled? What about moving games to a memory card, playing on another console and back again? If you can those things without ever connecting a box to Live, then they have crippled some out-of-the-box functionality.

looks pretty bogus to me... the xbox-live subscription is not banned, the modified ass console was...so... you can still play xbox live, just not on a bullshit console.

I got banned and i'm not bitching. I bought a new box and intend to go out and buy a few of the games that I originally pirated but was too cheap to go buy.

The banned box will either be sold or used to play pirate games. If I decide I want to try the game on live- I will rent it or buy it.

Come now people.

The barring of a modded thus uncertified console on the network is perfectly fine. But the crippling of the hard drive & data corruption is a blatant move to devalue the consoles and destroy the secondhand market. Protect, as well as increase the sales of new consoles during the holiday season.

Furthermore, 360 hardware breaks down from regular use. Obviously we have no proof but there is a chance it's fragile state was deliberate to create a disposible product. It backfired by being overly popular and too fragile, a trend became evident with the infamous RROD. M$ had no choice but to extend warranties at a heafty cost. The banning of systems on a mass scale voids warranties and saves on the inevidable repair expenses - which would be greater than live subs.

There is shady underhandidness going on here, bolstered by the Class rational of milking subs prior to the bans. Pirates are wrong, but lets be clear - the corporate greed on display here is unprecedented, and in no way legitimate.

QUOTE(InvidiousDemise @ Nov 19 2009, 02:39 AM)

I got banned and i'm not bitching. I bought a new box and intend to go out and buy a few of the games that I originally pirated but was too cheap to go buy.

The banned box will either be sold or used to play pirate games. If I decide I want to try the game on live- I will rent it or buy it.

LOL, I'm doing the opposite. I PAID for all my games and ripped them due to the rug rats. (well I have made an extra copy or two for when I have a LAN party) In my eyes it was the same thing as all four of us playing on one tv Vs. four FULL screens! However since I'm now dubbed a "pirate" I have SOLD ALL of my games, and started DOWNLOADING them. I'm NEVER paying for another 360 game again. TY Microsoft.

QUOTE(dezfarfa @ Nov 19 2009, 07:31 AM)

This message pertains to any ignorant fool that posted reply's in this thread saying that M$ is right and this lawsuit is bogus! How did you all pass to the 1st grade? Read the details of the suit! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PROCESS OF BANNING MODIFIED CONSOLES! RATHER THE TIMING OF M$ SHUTTING THE ACCOUNTS DOWN WAS TOO CONVENIENT! Let me break it down in leymens terms because I'm sure there will still be some ignorant posts to follow. M$ already had a database filled with those of whom there consoles were modified for quite some time now! They found it in there best interest to wait until the end of the year and take action during the holidays in which blockbuster games were set to be released to make profits skyrocket ten fold. How you might ask? Well, people that have banned consoles are going to purchase ANOTHER console! Not just an Arcade 360 but one with a new HD, meaning $299 straight out of pocket! That on top of the purchase of MW2! If any of you remember the ban that took place last year was also around this time. COINCIDENCE? OF COURSE NOT!! M$ has thee best marketing group on the face of this planet! EVERYTHING IS SET UP TO MAKE MORE MONEY! Let's not forget about the RROD. All M$ did is avoid legal action by increasing there warranty 3 years only to redistribute refurbished consoles with the EXACT SAME PROBLEM! M$ never addressed the core issue! We assume that the Jasper is finally a revision that will out due a 3 year or less life span! Seriously, people M$ does not deserve any sympathy or compassion! Educate yourselves!

Glass houses mate. Think before you throw that stone.

You seem to want to introduce irrelevant facts as well (RROD has nothing to do with the law suit).

QUOTE

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PROCESS OF BANNING MODIFIED CONSOLES! RATHER THE TIMING OF M$ SHUTTING THE ACCOUNTS DOWN WAS TOO CONVENIENT!

Well you see my educated friend it has everything to do with banning of modified consoles (By the way saying process would actually be the word in that statement which is linked to the timings of the bans), and nothing to do with shutting the accounts down, as they are all still active, just not useable on live on the banned console.

So instead of being rude about other peoples opinions how about you stop and think about stuff for yourself.

So what if M$ chose suitable timing for the ban? I sure as hell would want impact if I was banning someone using something of mine against the rules as well. Timing is everything in life my friend, I hope you feel educated now. Oh and by the way M$ is right and this lawsuit is bogus!

OFF topic:

Just had a thought? Did anyone else get the automated message reminding them it was time to re-up their account, the day before they were banned?

Seriously happened! Literally the day before they reminded my yr subscription was up in two months, and I needed to re-up it. Good thing I ignored it...

QUOTE

Microsoft "conveniently" timed the Xbox console ban to occur just after the release of the new Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 game and less than two months after the release of the very popular Halo 3: ODST game.

the ban wave started almost two weeks before COD:MW2 was released
http://uk.xbox360.ig.../1040853p1.html
http://www.vgrelease...ate-385136.aspx

....nice try

The problem falls in with the fact that MS are going to have lots of Banned consoles circulating out there and people are going to be caught out when its not there fault they bought a second hand console and didnt realise it was banned because of someone elses actions. MS should have stuck to revoking peoples live accounts, sure they can sign up for another but again they must pay to do so. Leave the consoles out of the battle I say and focus on the live users breaking the rules not their consoles because those can be moved around, esp now that there is a million or more floating about.

QUOTE(Misterturtle @ Nov 19 2009, 05:05 AM)

Hahaha, i love it lol, i'm getting in on this

And yeah, I think a good part of the case might be a friend witbout live hooked up a hard drive to a banned console not knowing about hard drive corruption, signed in, then back in his xbox and then his profile is corrupt and he cannot recover it because no live.

Have a look at this: http://www.se7ensins.com/forums/xbox-360-tutorials/155990-uncorrupt-profile-banned-xbox-360-a.html

^ I have tried & tested it on my Forza 3 save that got corrupter on a banned console - i was getting a corrupt profile error - works perfectly now

I agree - they should be targetting the corruption/blacklisting of profiles and gamesaves (which technically is classed as your personal data) and the revokation of HDD installation.

Installs to HDD were introduced for 3 main reasons:

1. To reduce the laser wear on ODDs (the laser life-span of a DVD-ROM is abysmal when it's being used constantly for 3-4 hours a day and totally impractical for us in a games console for this very reason).

2. To reduce the noise level during gameplay. One of the biggest gripes with the 360 (second only to failure rate) is the horrendous noise the earlier models made once discs got up to 'full spin'. Combine this with a badly balanced DVD-ROM (my launch console and PDZ was awfully loud when vertical) and you have yourself an extremely noisy piece of kit.

3. To reduce the chance of discs being scratched. There were at least half a dozen lawsuits within the EU and US for people claiming compensation for damaged discs where it was no fault of the customer.

None of these issues are attributed to lifting the lid on a games console and so could be argued that revoking the HDD install feature allows banned users to claim from MS.

As for 'HDD installs were an added feature', it's irrelevent. MS now ADVERTISE this as part of the specification. Therefore it's implied it's a standard. By removing the feature you're reducing the standard functionality of the console which was introduced to help increase the life-span of the console.

What I am most aggrieved with is MS can do all this to your console without any proof of wrongdoing. Denying access to a service is one thing, but I cannot find ANYTHING in the ToS which states they're allowed to modify your console to reduce standalone functionality. Imagine being banned on a forum and having your Windows User Account disabled as a result?

I know people with modded consoles had it coming etc. but on the other hand if MS want to rudely kick people off live then I think they should prorata their subscription funds back. Seems only fair. What they are doing is keeping money for a service they are not providing.

How much money do you think the xbox live service costs to run each year? $25 million? Guess what? They made that much profit free and clear by banning a million people.

Xbox live subscription for 12 months = $50
average amount of time left on sub at time of banning = 6 months
Number of xbox live users banned = 1 million

Profit for banning xbox live modded users = (6/12)x 50 x 1,000,000 = $25million

These people paid good money for a service, a service that all other video game users get for free. MS wants them off the service? Fine, it's there service, they can do what they like with it but keeping the money for a service they have withdrawn and refuse to provide? Enough money to run the service for everyone else?

That's fucking iffy and these lawyers have a point. Never mind what it says in the TOS, MS should give back the money for the service they are no longer giving to their customers and stop using them as a pure profit mechanism to provide the service for others.

As for the hard drive corruption? Not only is that nasty but it is tantamount to the damage done by hackers and may be against UK law among others.

Ok, lets get serious people M$ more than likely spends billions of dollars on a top notch legal team. There is no way of winning this again a monopoly corporation.

Oh yes there is. The reason MS might not lose often is that they will settle the most egregious cases as well as those that are cheaper and easier to make go away with a settlement. Not forgetting those ones which might stir up too much bad publicity too. Oh and they got creamed in the european courts several times precisely because of those monopolistic practices to the tune of several billion dollars.

A few questions;

1. Why should MS refund subscriptions which they have not cancelled? The console is banned as it is not as Microsoft manufactured it and therefore breaching the terms of live. Microsoft are within their rights to do this and it is deemed fair.

2. Do you really want people going through your game collection? Chances are you have some games which you shouldn't have. You really want further investigation in to you, at your own will, which could have you brought up on many charges of copyright infringement etc. and get you a nice big fine (or worse)? FYI the firmware used is a breach of Microsoft's copyright... care to take on Microsoft and have that as a counter claim?

3. Why shouldn't Microsoft disable a feature which was enabled through a dashboard update? The spec of the xbox 360 does not specify that hard drive installs are an option. While this may be a bit of a grey area in the whole "fairness" deal I can see a few ways out for Microsoft.

4. Is the cost of a court appearance and legal fees (if applicable) really worth it? A new console can be picked up very cheaply, law firms will charge you more than the value of a new console (if charged for service) or a day off work would cost you more (depending on your salary).

5. Should it be you or your parents doing this? I get the general impression that a lot of people complaining are still in school!! The contract with MS is broken when you signed it as you are a minor. Otherwise it is with your guardian.

Personally, I would stay away from this. Take the ban as a lesson learned.

QUOTE(makavelif50 @ Nov 19 2009, 06:06 AM)

I do not agree with this crap at all. It's simple if you mod your 360 it will get banned plain and simple. I agree with what Microsoft has done. Everyone by now should know the risks of modding your xbox, and if you understand the risks then you should wine, cry, or whatever when Microsoft bans your console. If you really must mod an xbox keep it offline and buy one just for online play. I mean if you mod it your going to end up buying another one anyways.

once agian what do you do for people that where banned that where not modded???

QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 19 2009, 11:20 AM)

A few questions;

1. Why should MS refund subscriptions which they have not cancelled? The console is banned as it is not as Microsoft manufactured it and therefore breaching the terms of live. Microsoft are within their rights to do this and it is deemed fair.

2. Do you really want people going through your game collection? Chances are you have some games which you shouldn't have. You really want further investigation in to you, at your own will, which could have you brought up on many charges of copyright infringement etc. and get you a nice big fine (or worse)? FYI the firmware used is a breach of Microsoft's copyright... care to take on Microsoft and have that as a counter claim?

3. Why shouldn't Microsoft disable a feature which was enabled through a dashboard update? The spec of the xbox 360 does not specify that hard drive installs are an option. While this may be a bit of a grey area in the whole "fairness" deal I can see a few ways out for Microsoft.

4. Is the cost of a court appearance and legal fees (if applicable) really worth it? A new console can be picked up very cheaply, law firms will charge you more than the value of a new console (if charged for service) or a day off work would cost you more (depending on your salary).

5. Should it be you or your parents doing this? I get the general impression that a lot of people complaining are still in school!! The contract with MS is broken when you signed it as you are a minor. Otherwise it is with your guardian.
Personally, I would stay away from this. Take the ban as a lesson learned.

QUOTE(PRiME2008 @ Nov 19 2009, 07:36 PM)

The problem falls in with the fact that MS are going to have lots of Banned consoles circulating out there and people are going to be caught out when its not there fault they bought a second hand console and didnt realise it was banned because of someone elses actions. MS should have stuck to revoking peoples live accounts, sure they can sign up for another but again they must pay to do so. Leave the consoles out of the battle I say and focus on the live users breaking the rules not their consoles because those can be moved around, esp now that there is a million or more floating about.

I totally agree Prime. I got the ban hammer and have since sold on. Out of hundreds of thousands of units, however many get sold on, how many unknowing people that have never even heard a word of this 09 ban wave go straight to the shops and buy a pre-paid card after getting a 2nd hand unit. They then find console is banned, can you imagine the fight for a end user with basic knowledge trying to get a refund from a level 1 agent in Bangladesh.... Not going to happen. I just say the ban's could of been done with more end user focus, not cutting of a million consoles and leaving consumers to sit in their own filth so to speak.

The interesting bit of a class action lawsuit against XBL bannings would be that Microsoft might have to disclose their methods to determine when a console is 'modified'. I'm not an expert on US law but maybe someone who knows how the system works over there, but if I'm correct, any information disclosed in a class action suit is available publicly?

That is a very different legal case.

You will need to seek legal action for that which is totally different to this one. As for lost time, if found incorrect I am sure Microsoft will add on the missed live subscription time much like they do (or did) for repairs.

I would suggest that you contact a legal firm and take up this other matter. Microsoft will pay legal fees, court costs and for anything else you can claim cost you while this investigation/case was ongoing so what do you have to lose?

But how many console which were banned really did nothing wrong? They banned for more than just firmware.

QUOTE(sgr215 @ Nov 19 2009, 06:09 AM)

While I don't like frivolous lawsuits, I believe this class action lawsuit will only benefit the community as a whole. I also believe it's a legitimate lawsuit. The most important bit of information I gathered from this is "were not refunded a prorated sum for the time left on your subscription". Microsoft could have prevented this suit but they got a little too greedy and thus may end up paying for it in the end. I realize their TOS may have covered them in situations like this but a lot of people fail to realize that while a TOS may hold some sort of legal protection it certainly isn't bulletproof. Such a clause in their TOS could be deemed unfair and I'm assuming that's the primary complaint here. I'd urge anyone banned who didn't receive a refund for the remainder of their subscription term to forward their information but that's just me. Realistically, even if this case is won you'll only see a few dollars but it'll most likely improve Xbox Live in the process.

Microsoft is under no obligation to refund you for the remainder of your live sub.. if you are stupid enough to take a modded 360 online with live, then you haven't read the live user agreement that you agreed to that clearly states they have the right to ban you at ANY time. If you played one pirated game, you've already used up your live gold sub cost (as in what the game would cost)

I simply think the lawsuit is ridiculous and reeks of desperation by a bunch of pirates that are pissed off that they got got...lol

QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 19 2009, 10:20 AM)

3. Why shouldn't Microsoft disable a feature which was enabled through a dashboard update? The spec of the xbox 360 does not specify that hard drive installs are an option. While this may be a bit of a grey area in the whole "fairness" deal I can see a few ways out for Microsoft.

Because said feature was introduced to increase the lifespan of the console. MS never give you anything for free. HD installs wasn't a case of 'here you go - we've spent $$$$ developing a way for you to play games from the HDD and it won't cost you a penny'. It's more a case of 'we KNOW the DVD drive is prone to scratching discs, either by the console being accidentally knocked, or even just sat there doing its own thing. In order to stop you from suing us over this, we're giving you a fix in the flavour of HDD installs that only work with THAT console.'

Face it - if it was the first option you wouldn't need to have the content exclusive to one console (since you need the disc itself to authenticate it). Now I know why it was DRM locked.

Here's another thought - if MSs detection system is so good, why not allow people to return their modified console back to an unmodified state and re-test for XBL? Rather than have 100,000s of banned consoles out there, it would allow people who made the mistake (or were unaware they're console was modified) to rectify it.

QUOTE(d-range @ Nov 19 2009, 10:50 AM)

The interesting bit of a class action lawsuit against XBL bannings would be that Microsoft might have to disclose their methods to determine when a console is 'modified'. I'm not an expert on US law but maybe someone who knows how the system works over there, but if I'm correct, any information disclosed in a class action suit is available publicly?

I think it depends on the information and on the outcome of the case.

QUOTE(bobbyblaze @ Nov 19 2009, 11:01 AM)

I know people with modded consoles had it coming etc. but on the other hand if MS want to rudely kick people off live then I think they should prorata their subscription funds back. Seems only fair. What they are doing is keeping money for a service they are not providing.

How much money do you think the xbox live service costs to run each year? $25 million? Guess what? They made that much profit free and clear by banning a million people.

Xbox live subscription for 12 months = $50
average amount of time left on sub at time of banning = 6 months
Number of xbox live users banned = 1 million

Profit for banning xbox live modded users = (6/12)x 50 x 1,000,000 = $25million

These people paid good money for a service, a service that all other video game users get for free. MS wants them off the service? Fine, it's there service, they can do what they like with it but keeping the money for a service they have withdrawn and refuse to provide? Enough money to run the service for everyone else?

That's fucking iffy and these lawyers have a point. Never mind what it says in the TOS, MS should give back the money for the service they are no longer giving to their customers and stop using them as a pure profit mechanism to provide the service for others.

As for the hard drive corruption? Not only is that nasty but it is tantamount to the damage done by hackers and may be against UK law among others.

As has been pointed out, you can still use your live sub, just not the banned console. so MS is completely covered, best option if you get banned, go online, log into live and suspend your sub till you get a new console...
otherwise it is on YOU to manage your own live sub...

QUOTE(Puffer @ Nov 19 2009, 05:17 AM)

Lets not forget that the HDD installs are NOT part of the original functionality of the hardware, but an added benefit given by MS through a system update. So, technically, no they didn't limit the hardware, they returned it to its original state.

yes it is. you buy a new xbox 360 and it cames with that functioinality.
and in some sort you buy it because of it. or you would buy a arcade version.
and on the sudent you don´t have anymore what you´ve paid for.

seems to be a good point on a law suit
i doub´t that in the agreement it previews that you could lose this function

QUOTE(NeO_CooL @ Nov 19 2009, 11:58 AM)

yes it is. you buy a new xbox 360 and it cames with that functioinality.
and in some sort you buy it because of it. or you would buy a arcade version.
and on the sudent you don´t have anymore what you´ve paid for.

seems to be a good point on a law suit
i doub´t that in the agreement it previews that you could lose this function

Actually, the Xbox Live agreement says they have the right to add and remove features at any time without notice...

row row, fight the powah

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 19 2009, 11:00 AM)

Actually, the Xbox Live agreement says they have the right to add and remove features at any time without notice...

maybe that´s the case but don´t know if it´s legal.
remove a updated or new feature received by live is one thing but removing a feature that is advertised to sell and in the console when you buy it is another thing.
think that only work´s in usa as there are lawsuits for everythig...

in europe there is a litle more sense when judging and not treating people that wont just to receive money like dumbasses...
like i know that if i shot a gun in the head i will probably die... why should i have a manual that says that?
jesus... that´s a fact...

i wont be surprised if they restore this feature in a future update.

It's a given that the HDD install/HDD crippling is a grey area however I am sure Microsoft's legal team have it covered. I really wouldn't waste time trying to get past it or take legal action with it.

Fact is, if you have lost HDD functions then you have been banned. Most have been for flashed firmware so your argument about protecting discs is contradicting why you flashed it anyway!

Take the ban as a lesson learned. If you are not going to do it again then buy a new console, sell the banned, you actually end up making money doing this if you get one of the many great deals on at the moment.

Oh, and not all games support hdd installation anyway, such as crackdown. Are you planning to sue Microsoft over that too as it says on your console that you can install games to hard drive?

Feel free to join in with this joke of a lawsuit but I can tell you that the subscription issue will be thrown, no laughed, out almost instantly. It holds no ground! It makes me wonder about the credibility of this law firm to be honest. Publicity through this is going to be big... call me a cynic but I see an alternative reason for them doing this.

Oh no, not another "sue everyone for everything" thread... topics like this are just stupid. Stop whining, you all knew the risks involved!

interesting in what type of lawsuits this firm in in...
http://www.abingtonl...ss_actions.html

seem´s they are used to consumer point of view lawsuits

QUOTE

Sony VAIO Touchpad Class Action Investigation

Do you think I could get one started against Win7 64bit Ultimate product, alot of my warez no longer work like they did on XP.

Unfair.

Could not they attack it from another angle. Lets say for instance that as a result of MS TOS that they hold a monopoly of some type. By this I mean, for arguements sake I own a 360 console which has run out of warrantly and the dvdrom fails. And just to throw in another curla, its a Liteon drive. Everything else is ok, just the dvdrom needs to be replaced. Now this leaves me with 3 options.

1. Buy a new console - shouldn't have to if a simple replacement drive could fix it.
2. Replace the drive with a replacement firmware - Can't because the original firmware is not available (Liteons) and if I flash it with a replacement firmware then I go against their TOS and get banned.
3. Send to MS and have it fixed - because you can't send it anywhere else as you have the same problem with firmware.

So you have a situation where the only ones allowed to fix the console is MS. Isn't that illegal?

luckly I haven't banned yet.

Miscrosoft getting me very annoying

- I spend 400 for my first xbox 360, then it die, because of RROD. then I spend 180 for second xbox 360

- I payed 35 for 1 year live. ( which I can't play yet)

- I have update my dvd-drive every wave.

the only reason I still playing on xbox 360, because I can play backups

so all that banning actions of Miscrosoft, I still can accept it.

for peoples who saids :" get a new xbox360 for xbox live" are you stupid? why don't you just get a PS3? that's alot cheaper.

QUOTE(sportz103 @ Nov 19 2009, 07:15 AM)

Once you buy it its your hardware. While this lawsuit is stupid, as modding the system clearly violates the TOS and they are perfectly allowed to ban you for that. The HDD crippling though is something that would be a much more reasonable complaint. A piece of hardware had its abilities lessened because you violated an agreement that had nothing to do with that piece of removable external hardware.

And that was the point I was also thinking of. Indeed, we violate the terms of Xbox LIVE and nothing else, I agree they have banned my console, and off course I ain't mad at M$, the have all the rights to do that. But I also agree they can't/ may not lessen the ability of the console (even offline). It's completely something else.

I also think you are stupid to fill in the form, it's just showing your account to MS saying, here am I, using downloaded games and I also going to suit you. Maybe you get your 30 bucks back for your live, but maybe you also have to pay for the copyright using copyed games. Don't think M$ is stupid, they have all te rights.

For a firm who specialise in Intellectual Property Law & Consumer Class Actions I wonder if they would realise that the firmware used is a breach of intellectual property law and copyright?

If you are banned legitimately you will not beat Microsoft in a court for any reason.

As for repairs, monopoly etc. You can repair elsewhere, some have the tools and means to fix all but the latest drives (which are under warranty). BUT you wont be able to use live. The live thing is a term of lives use and doesn't contradict any laws etc. That isn't a case.

In all honesty there is no case against Microsoft for those caught with a modified console. There is for those who were incorrectly banned (if they really exist) but remember they can ban for hdd changes (i.e. home made ones), cooling mods, pretty much anything that means you have altered the console from how it was when it come out of the box.

QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 19 2009, 11:59 AM)

For a firm who specialise in Intellectual Property Law & Consumer Class Actions I wonder if they would realise that the firmware used is a breach of intellectual property law and copyright?

If you are banned legitimately you will not beat Microsoft in a court for any reason.

As for repairs, monopoly etc. You can repair elsewhere, some have the tools and means to fix all but the latest drives (which are under warranty). BUT you wont be able to use live. The live thing is a term of lives use and doesn't contradict any laws etc. That isn't a case.

In all honesty there is no case against Microsoft for those caught with a modified console. There is for those who were incorrectly banned (if they really exist) but remember they can ban for hdd changes (i.e. home made ones), cooling mods, pretty much anything that means you have altered the console from how it was when it come out of the box.

A slight contradiction - you assume that people are only being banned for firmware changes, yet state you know they ban for other things which are NOT infringing on intellectual property. Bottom line is not only are the depriving your console from online use but for many, it's less functional offline than purchased.

I see no contradiction on my part, I said I wonder if they realise that the firmware used is a breach of copyright. I never said, nor implied, that all banned users used this firmware, it was a general statement about the firmware used on most modified consoles. How is that contradictory? Not that it matters.

The only mod which has been reported as a cause for a ban which doesn't breach copyright is the cooling one (which I don't believe was the only mod on that system).

This law firm is obviously clueless.. Firstly Microsoft will give you a refund on your remaining XBOX LIVE subscription. Also the user has obviously modified their system voiding their user agreement therefore there legal access to the XBOX software. Microsoft could technically disable the entire ability for a user to power on the xbox. You own the hardware but are simply "borrowing" the software under very strict user guidelines. Considering you have violated the DMCA in the United States and many other countries there will be no legal recourse for what they have done. They could argue they are protecting their intellectual property, by disabling use of the xbox360.

Again this is just a law firm looking to cash in at the expense of everyone else. You'll get 10cents on the dollar back for your xbox live subscription after they were done with any case anyway.

QUOTE(sgr215 @ Nov 19 2009, 12:09 AM)

While I don't like frivolous lawsuits, I believe this class action lawsuit will only benefit the community as a whole. I also believe it's a legitimate lawsuit. The most important bit of information I gathered from this is "were not refunded a prorated sum for the time left on your subscription". Microsoft could have prevented this suit but they got a little too greedy and thus may end up paying for it in the end. I realize their TOS may have covered them in situations like this but a lot of people fail to realize that while a TOS may hold some sort of legal protection it certainly isn't bulletproof. Such a clause in their TOS could be deemed unfair and I'm assuming that's the primary complaint here. I'd urge anyone banned who didn't receive a refund for the remainder of their subscription term to forward their information but that's just me. Realistically, even if this case is won you'll only see a few dollars but it'll most likely improve Xbox Live in the process.

"I realize their TOS may have covered them in situations like this but a lot of people fail to realize that while a TOS may hold some sort of legal protection it certainly isn't bulletproof."

+1

QUOTE(Puffer @ Nov 19 2009, 12:17 AM)

Lets not forget that the HDD installs are NOT part of the original functionality of the hardware, but an added benefit given by MS through a system update. So, technically, no they didn't limit the hardware, they returned it to its original state.

That could depend on when you bought your system. Say new consoles, could have the latest update, so to a new owner it could be something that appears to be a function out of the box.

HDD Crippling issue: Does the advertisement/specification of the console state that games can be installed to hard drive? If not then there is no issue. If so then check the terms of use agreement and spot the bit where they say they can remove features without notice.

It will be interesting to see if this holds any water legally. Microsoft have a strong argument that modifying your console is against the terms and conditions of Xbox Live and so reserve the right to ban modified consoles - by signing up to Live users have agreed to these terms, which will be a legally binding contract, so can't complain about being banned. That's before they even go into the fact that modified firmware breaches their copyright and can pretty much only be used for playing backup/pirated games.

As for complaining about the timing of the ban, I'm sure Microsoft will argue that waiting until after the releases of Halo 3 ODST and Modern Warfare 2 was NOT a ploy to generate as much revenue as possible before initiating the bans because people with modified consoles are far less likely to actually purchase games (although, granted, there are people that get banned for having the 12v fan mod, or a homemade hard drive, or who genuinely only use modified firmware to play backups of games they've bought, but I'm willing to bet Microsoft could dig up statistics from somewhere that show people with modified firmware are 80% less likely to purchase a game, or something). They can also demonstrate that it's common practice for them to put console bans into effect en mass at around this time every year and that the timing is likely due to the fact that they have other things to work on year round (such as the yearly dashboard update - it always looks like they finish work on that and then start looking for consoles to ban at the same time every year).

As for generating revenue from Live subscriptions bought by players of ODST and MW2 (whether genuine copies or not), I'm sure they can argue again that the subscriptions are non refundable, as that is probably in the terms and conditions. But a court may be able to rule that an unfair term and force them to refund Live subscriptions to banned players, I don't know, I'm not a lawyer.

As someone has already said, the lawsuit may hold more water if it targeted Microsoft for removing functions such as hard drive installs and corrupting gamertags and save games between banned and unbanned consoles. It makes sense that if you violate the terms of use of Live that you get banned from Live, but what does being able to install games to hard drive have to do with anything? I'm sure if they wanted to they could disable the entire console (like by wiping the dashboard) on banned consoles, but how would they legally justify that? Removing offline features for an online violation is just petty and if the lawsuit focused on that they might get somewhere (unless Microsoft have slipped something about them disabling offline features into the Live ToS).

I mentioned it earlier , if this LAW FIRM can find a number of people that were BANNED and they bought the 360 NEW and never modded or did anything wrong, then that could remove all bans.
Some of you guys think because MS says something , it's Legal, but it may not be, a Judge has to decide or a Jury.
Even if someone switched 360's at store and a number of people in store bought that 360 , these type cases could be very interesting to see how Judge or Jury see's it.
1 Million people being Banned, I'm sure we have a number that were Wrongly Banned, and if we law firm can find them, it COULD unban everybody.
The way it is now, MS states , their is nothing you can do about it once it's banned, don't call us about it. So, a number of people that are WRONGLY Banned, could have BIG, BIG benefit for all 360 owners.

Can somebody answer this for me? If you join this lawsuit, wouldn't that give M$ your personal info, as in they could go after you for piracy? If i was banned, i would stay the hell away from this lawsuit. I mean what other reason is there to mod your system other than to play backups?

Corruption issues/no installs.

Why is it done? Security. The console is no longer a trusted console as far as Microsoft is concerned. The console with it's modified whatever may be used to create saves and/or content that are not intended by Microsoft. Therefore, to secure the integrity of the platform they have removed the consoles ability to sign anything thus not being able to check game installs, saves etc. and not allowing them to work on any other console or on xbox live.

Hope that makes sense.

That may not be the reason but it could be a reason and could be used in their defence.

QUOTE(Lsd @ Nov 19 2009, 12:42 PM)

Can somebody answer this for me? If you join this lawsuit, wouldn't that give M$ your personal info, as in they could go after you for piracy? If i was banned, i would stay the hell away from this lawsuit. I mean what other reason is there to mod your system other than to play backups?

I don't know what this firm ask for but yes, it would/could lead to a conviction for piracy which is a lot worse than losing up to $60.

QUOTE(tactical @ Nov 19 2009, 12:41 PM)

I mentioned it earlier , if this LAW FIRM can find a number of people that were BANNED and they bought the 360 NEW and never modded or did anything wrong, then that could remove all bans.
Some of you guys think because MS says something , it's Legal, but it may not be, a Judge has to decide or a Jury.
Even if someone switched 360's at store and a number of people in store bought that 360 , these type cases could be very interesting to see how Judge or Jury see's it.
1 Million people being Banned, I'm sure we have a number that were Wrongly Banned, and if we law firm can find them, it COULD unban everybody.
The way it is now, MS states , their is nothing you can do about it once it's banned, don't call us about it. So, a number of people that are WRONGLY Banned, could have BIG, BIG benefit for all 360 owners.

True but they are asking for those who did modify their console to step up.

Those wrongly banned (if any) are just "collateral damage" and numbers are probably very minimal.

QUOTE(OmegaSix @ Nov 19 2009, 06:21 AM)

This is frivolous. You broke TOS by modding so they ban your console, NOT your gamertag. They don't owe you shit because your live account is still valid. You can still access live, just not on that modded console. Now if they were talking about peoples gamertag's that got banned, that might be a little different, but even then you still broke TOS so they could hit back at you with a breach of contract. It's a no win situation and a waste of time.

This law suit is about Microsoft's timing, not about whether banning you is legal or not. In essence they are saying MS knew how to detect for some time, and chose to ban people after they knew there would be a big sign up to live period. This would mean that they took money off people, knowing that they were going to turn around and ban them later, potentially pocketing that money. You can argue all you like about whether the bans are legal for people who just want to back up their files, or you can argue that everyone is a pirate, but the case is about MS taking money when they knew a banhammer was coming.

Timing? It happened this time last year, and the year before... it's the same every year, november = ban season.

It wont hold up. Microsoft can prove they choose to do this at this time of the year every year and big releases have nothing to do with it.

QUOTE(Lsd @ Nov 19 2009, 01:42 PM)

Can somebody answer this for me? If you join this lawsuit, wouldn't that give M$ your personal info, as in they could go after you for piracy? If i was banned, i would stay the hell away from this lawsuit. I mean what other reason is there to mod your system other than to play backups?

No, they cannot access the list of names for a 'counter suit'. As well, some have modded their console to replace a defective DVD-ROM drive, others to improve the cooling, others just out of interest as to how this stuff works.

QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 19 2009, 01:54 PM)

Timing? It happened this time last year, and the year before... it's the same every year, november = ban season.

It wont hold up. Microsoft can prove they choose to do this at this time of the year every year and big releases have nothing to do with it.

That could easily go against them, that they time their bans during the big-release season every year, maximising their income from banned accounts. It could show a policy of doing so, which would cause problems for MS. It would only take an e-mail or something to that effect to bring them undone, and if this gets to court, they will have to pony that sort of stuff up. At the very least their TOS may be deemed void, which it most likely would be if taken to court, in many country it contravenes local laws, can't be sure for the US, but it definitely does in Australia, the UK and New Zealand, it is just that it has never been challenged.

QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 19 2009, 01:34 PM)

HDD Crippling issue: Does the advertisement/specification of the console state that games can be installed to hard drive? If not then there is no issue. If so then check the terms of use agreement and spot the bit where they say they can remove features without notice.

Microsoft advertises these features extensively through trade shows, press releases and other marketing.

Be warned people. This is legal stuff, and we all know what 99% of modded xboxes were used for.

From what it said at the bottom, this lawsuit would only win you a few dollars... It costs $40-60/year for a XBL membership, missing a month or two wont get you anything, especially in a class action lawsuit.

Now, this needs to get changed to the hard drive part. Im not a lawyer, but Im pretty sure when a company can completely disable a part at will, something is wrong and for some reason, I doubt the HDD part was in M$ legal documents.

you have to be a 100% baby back bitch to sign up for this banned or not

QUOTE(insanityforall @ Nov 19 2009, 02:49 AM)

However since I'm now dubbed a "pirate" I have SOLD ALL of my games, and started DOWNLOADING them. I'm NEVER paying for another 360 game again. TY Microsoft.

Add to that that i am now modifying consoles for free, and pointing those ppl to where to get games. and also telling them not to get a new 360 and to get a ps3 instead.

Side note - since cracking the encryption on the 360 would take too long, who do we have to take hostage to get their private key?

I am unfortunately one of the ~1 million banned and here's my 2 cents on the whole thing.

1) I knew the risks of modding my 360 (as should all other modders), and am not too distraught about being banned. I really don't care about the 3 months left on my Live subscription/Gamerscore/etc. It was a dick move by MS to start the ban wave before MW2/holiday season in an effort to boosts Q4 sales figures, but hey, that's MS. However, I'm still incredibly pissed about...

2) ... the HD crippling. A few posters brought up a great point that if MS advertises HD installs as a feature, they don't have the right to take it away. Hopefully there's something to this and the feature will be restored soon (or at least somebody will figure out how to fix it).

3) I was thinking about buying a new 360 to play MW2 with my buddies back home, but the thought of giving money to MS now makes me sick. This gives me another reason to finally buy a PS3, and I'll just use my 360 offline. I'm really interested to see if the sales figures for the new few months reflect banned people buying a replacement console or jumping ship to Sony.

4) Although MS's legal team's probably covered all the bases before giving whoever the go for the ban, I hope somebody, anybody, really takes it to them over this. The RROD lawsuit definitely had stronger legs than this one, but hopefully this will cause enough commotion/bad publicity that they somehow get theirs.

All in all, the situation sucks, but that's life sometimes. If you are too invested in your Gamertag, you'll unfortunately have to give more money to MS. If not, maybe you should grab a PS3 and even out the console war a bit. And if nothing else, you can thank MS for all the extra free time you'll have that would've been spent on Live. Your girlfriend/wife won't complain nearly as much or you can head to the gym to help snag you one. Personally, I'm going to dust off my guitar and sign up for some Muay Thai classes.

P.S. Anybody want to buy a wireless headset?

QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 19 2009, 12:54 PM)

Timing? It happened this time last year, and the year before... it's the same every year, november = ban season.

It wont hold up. Microsoft can prove they choose to do this at this time of the year every year and big releases have nothing to do with it.

You've actually bolstered the argument there. Every November? Just before holiday season, when they're looking to shift games consoles?

Under the Freedom of Information act, we should be permitted to see WHEN a console was flagged for a ban. If someone was flagged back in May/June, any law firm would have a very strong case against Microsoft.

the problem here is, how will they prove that MS is flagging the consoles before banning them.

and also, who says MS has to ban right when they catch you?

well, its obvious they want more money so they wait to the right time to ban you.

so basicly, all the money you saves from not buying the games, you pay to MS for the live subscription and a new console.

THis is the stupidest thread i have ever seen Microsoft banned the system, you can still use your live service if you bought a next console

epic fail by law firm
Ms did nto rip those people off they did it to them selves

This suit will be thrown out because MS has taken the best action it could to protect it's customers fair use of their live service. All MS will have to do is provide proof that the modded consoles could be used to cheat in online games, and circumvent the DRM and the case is won. MS will also be able to point out that the consoles themselves are not useless, and can still be used offline, while the harddrive while not useable on the banned console, will be usable on another. Since the gamer tag is not banned, any content you purchase can easily be moved to another console or hard drive for that matter. Since you are violating the contract you have with MS for the use of live, you will not be able to recoup any monies for the remainder of your time left on your gold subscription, all you would have to do is buy another unit, or restore the banned 360 to an unmodifed state with the instructions available on this site.

We all know the risks for what we do, but very few a willing to deal with the consequences of our actions. To me the live service is worth more than the ability to back up my games, or run linux so I have not modified my consoles,what ever else can be done with the console once it is modified has yet to be seen, and at the current rate of modification, when something actually worth while doing with a modified console the console itself will be last gen, and the next console will be on the market. While some in the scene will still continue to work on freeing the machine and completely open it up, most will move on to cracking and opening up the next gen system.

Do the ends really justify the means as far as modification goes? I don't think so.

The bottom line is if out of 1 million banned users , a number can be found that store bought 360 NEW and found out it was Banned, or , never did anything wrong and were BANNED, that would CHANGE EVERYTHING. Everything. Because MS states there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO UNBAN.
"we don't want to hear about it".
This could come back and bite them.
If a FEW people can be found that were BANNED wrongly, and taken to court, then MS's BANNING practice WOULD have to stop, court's could make them.
Stop talking about how wrong it is to mod or other crap like that, I'm talking, BANNING people that did no wrong. If they can be found, that WILL CHANGE everything. The courts agreed that these people did NO wrong, and MS states "nothing you can say to us to unban you", the COURTS could say to MS, "well, we are the LAW and we are telling you UNBAN everybody since your BANNING method is "catching legit people".
You guys are focusing on wrong thing. If you modded your 360, YES , you got banned, BUT I'm focusing on the exception "people who did nothing wrong", and out of 1 million people, there have got to be some people, even if people went into walmart and bought a "returned" 360 but bought it NEW.
If court rules , "unban" then MS would have to come out with NEW method to check and ban or have more flexible method of banning and unbanning.

QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 19 2009, 07:54 AM)

Timing? It happened this time last year, and the year before... it's the same every year, november = ban season.

It wont hold up. Microsoft can prove they choose to do this at this time of the year every year and big releases have nothing to do with it.

Maybe they could add to the lawsuit

MS does it at this time to create larger fake sales number for the holiday as well.

Yeah the HDD should have been the main focus. It's like when we buy a new car and want to install a new radio so does that give the dealer the right to disable the speakers.

Yeah the timing is always been @ the end of the year we should all know that

Is there anywhere in the TOS that specifically states Microsoft will disable HDD functionality if the agreement is violated?

How do they expect MS to pay prorated refunds... if the Xbox is banned not the account?

Good luck with that one.
Easy argument "they can simply buy a new 360 and not modify it" Case dismissed

QUOTE(sgr215 @ Nov 18 2009, 10:09 PM)

While I don't like frivolous lawsuits, I believe this class action lawsuit will only benefit the community as a whole. I also believe it's a legitimate lawsuit. The most important bit of information I gathered from this is "were not refunded a prorated sum for the time left on your subscription". Microsoft could have prevented this suit but they got a little too greedy and thus may end up paying for it in the end. I realize their TOS may have covered them in situations like this but a lot of people fail to realize that while a TOS may hold some sort of legal protection it certainly isn't bulletproof. Such a clause in their TOS could be deemed unfair and I'm assuming that's the primary complaint here. I'd urge anyone banned who didn't receive a refund for the remainder of their subscription term to forward their information but that's just me. Realistically, even if this case is won you'll only see a few dollars but it'll most likely improve Xbox Live in the process.

You violate the terms of service, you don't get a refund. You only get a refund if it is Microsofts fault. This clearly isn't. MS didn't make you mod the console. This whole thing is bs. In no way does anyone think that downloading games and cheating on live would be "unfair" in the TOS. They know full well what they are doing. This wont help Live at all. It will only make MS more reluctant to ban, when they need to be banning more. I frakking hate cheaters. There is a special level of hell just for them.

QUOTE(xbones @ Nov 19 2009, 07:24 AM)

ok how about this example? You are a father of a 12 or 16 year old. You obviously have to pay the subscription fees for your son/daughter... The xbox gets banned and/or the live account with it. You have no idea why because you never did anything with it (maybe the kids did).. Anyway you call microsoft to get your money back because you just purchased 12 months on live 2 weeks before the banning and now your children can't play it.
The person who paid never did anything wrong and they were the one who abide by the contact.. The kids can't be held accountable and the parents didn't do anything wrong..

Shouldn't they get their money back for time they didn't use?

I think that's more what this lawsuit is protecting. The kids who use the xbox 360's aren't always the ones paying the bills.

Get their money back? No

Ignorance is not a defense.

QUOTE(Jbasto @ Nov 19 2009, 01:45 PM)

Yeah the HDD should have been the main focus. It's like when we buy a new car and want to install a new radio so does that give the dealer the right to disable the speakers.

Yeah the timing is always been @ the end of the year we should all know that

Actually, when you buy a new car and want to change the stereo you void the warranty if you change anything from stock. You also need to use an adapter on most looms for it to fit the new head unit and in some the speakers don't work, or it can affect other parts of the car. My old MR2 had amps which I removed, once removed it disabled the starting circuits (or the whole electrics, I never looked too hard in to it, just put the amps back).

QUOTE(Rev666 @ Nov 19 2009, 01:48 PM)

Is there anywhere in the TOS that specifically states Microsoft will disable HDD functionality if the agreement is violated?

Yes. They state they may add, remove or change services and/or features without notice. But the HDD still works in a banned console, game installs do not. This is due to the console no longer having the rights/ability to sign the content.

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Nov 19 2009, 01:19 PM)

You've actually bolstered the argument there. Every November? Just before holiday season, when they're looking to shift games consoles?

Under the Freedom of Information act, we should be permitted to see WHEN a console was flagged for a ban. If someone was flagged back in May/June, any law firm would have a very strong case against Microsoft.

Under the Freedom of Information Act Microsoft MUST give you ALL information they hold on you. They can charge an admin fee for this (and will do). There is no guarantee they will give info on the consoles though.

I almost mentioned this earlier then thought, what if Microsoft log the bans etc to the console not the person. This will not have to be disclosed if that is the case.

It's worth a try. I think there is a maximum admin fee of about £15 for this info, check the PPI reclamation guides as people do this for their loans etc. and the rules are the same. Then send a cheque off for the amount to Microsoft demanding all information. If you are not satisfied with the information sent and believe there is more they haven't sent you keep hassling them and they have to send it (if it exists)... if nothing else it'll piss someone there off.

QUOTE(dezfarfa @ Nov 19 2009, 02:31 AM)

This message pertains to any ignorant fool that posted reply's in this thread saying that M$ is right and this lawsuit is bogus! How did you all pass to the 1st grade? Read the details of the suit! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PROCESS OF BANNING MODIFIED CONSOLES! RATHER THE TIMING OF M$ SHUTTING THE ACCOUNTS DOWN WAS TOO CONVENIENT! Let me break it down in leymens terms because I'm sure there will still be some ignorant posts to follow. M$ already had a database filled with those of whom there consoles were modified for quite some time now! They found it in there best interest to wait until the end of the year and take action during the holidays in which blockbuster games were set to be released to make profits skyrocket ten fold. How you might ask? Well, people that have banned consoles are going to purchase ANOTHER console! Not just an Arcade 360 but one with a new HD, meaning $299 straight out of pocket! That on top of the purchase of MW2! If any of you remember the ban that took place last year was also around this time. COINCIDENCE? OF COURSE NOT!! M$ has thee best marketing group on the face of this planet! EVERYTHING IS SET UP TO MAKE MORE MONEY! Let's not forget about the RROD. All M$ did is avoid legal action by increasing there warranty 3 years only to redistribute refurbished consoles with the EXACT SAME PROBLEM! M$ never addressed the core issue! We assume that the Jasper is finally a revision that will out due a 3 year or less life span! Seriously, people M$ does not deserve any sympathy or compassion! Educate yourselves!

Ok, first off M$ did nothing wrong but defend there TOS and they are allowed to defend in anway they see fit. If they soley choose to ban a couple months before before a majority of ppl are due to renew, then so be it. And as far the good parrents and naughty kids defense thats called guilty by association. For the ppl who got baned for having games earley shame on the store for selling it earley and shame on you for being stupid enough to play it. As for me my console got baned so i got another one formated my HDD and redowload my Live account and remodded my 360. We all now the the possible outcome of our choices, the real question is are your man or woman enough to reap what you sowed! PEACE!

QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 19 2009, 03:20 AM)

A few questions;

1. Why should MS refund subscriptions which they have not cancelled? The console is banned as it is not as Microsoft manufactured it and therefore breaching the terms of live. Microsoft are within their rights to do this and it is deemed fair.

2. Do you really want people going through your game collection? Chances are you have some games which you shouldn't have. You really want further investigation in to you, at your own will, which could have you brought up on many charges of copyright infringement etc. and get you a nice big fine (or worse)? FYI the firmware used is a breach of Microsoft's copyright... care to take on Microsoft and have that as a counter claim?

3. Why shouldn't Microsoft disable a feature which was enabled through a dashboard update? The spec of the xbox 360 does not specify that hard drive installs are an option. While this may be a bit of a grey area in the whole "fairness" deal I can see a few ways out for Microsoft.

4. Is the cost of a court appearance and legal fees (if applicable) really worth it? A new console can be picked up very cheaply, law firms will charge you more than the value of a new console (if charged for service) or a day off work would cost you more (depending on your salary).

5. Should it be you or your parents doing this? I get the general impression that a lot of people complaining are still in school!! The contract with MS is broken when you signed it as you are a minor. Otherwise it is with your guardian.
Personally, I would stay away from this. Take the ban as a lesson learned.

1) because they timed the console ban after many people renewed the sub expecting to use it with MW2 and ODST. I am in favour of the lawsuit because their detection method is so good that they could unban a console after a retest but won't, yet they will let your sub fees auto renew to your credit card...

2) seriously, do you think they are going to knock on your door? The suit mentioned here is for the unrefunded live subscription. No one is questioning the validity of tha ban with this law suit

3)That feature was advertised, included with new systems therefore it would be considered part of the included console software.

4) Do you know how a class action suit works?

5)I think the parents, heck many buy these instead of paying babysitters. Heck they prolly don't even know what this is all about, lol. The kids prolly tell them they are just fixing it...

QUOTE(seemless75 @ Nov 19 2009, 07:23 AM)

Ok, first off M$ did nothing wrong but defend there TOS and they are allowed to defend in anway they see fit.

ok, so if GM said you have to get your oil changed at a dealership or they will void your warranty, then they are defending their product by ensuring proper service and then that would be OK?

hmmm...

Give the people who can fine you thousands of dollars and put you in prison...your name and information over an Xbox Live banning? Um...no

QUOTE(dezfarfa @ Nov 19 2009, 06:31 AM)

This message pertains to any ignorant fool that posted reply's in this thread saying that M$ is right and this lawsuit is bogus! How did you all pass to the 1st grade? Read the details of the suit! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PROCESS OF BANNING MODIFIED CONSOLES! RATHER THE TIMING OF M$ SHUTTING THE ACCOUNTS DOWN WAS TOO CONVENIENT! Let me break it down in leymens terms because I'm sure there will still be some ignorant posts to follow. M$ already had a database filled with those of whom there consoles were modified for quite some time now! They found it in there best interest to wait until the end of the year and take action during the holidays in which blockbuster games were set to be released to make profits skyrocket ten fold. How you might ask? Well, people that have banned consoles are going to purchase ANOTHER console! Not just an Arcade 360 but one with a new HD, meaning $299 straight out of pocket! That on top of the purchase of MW2! If any of you remember the ban that took place last year was also around this time. COINCIDENCE? OF COURSE NOT!! M$ has thee best marketing group on the face of this planet! EVERYTHING IS SET UP TO MAKE MORE MONEY! Let's not forget about the RROD. All M$ did is avoid legal action by increasing there warranty 3 years only to redistribute refurbished consoles with the EXACT SAME PROBLEM! M$ never addressed the core issue! We assume that the Jasper is finally a revision that will out due a 3 year or less life span! Seriously, people M$ does not deserve any sympathy or compassion! Educate yourselves!

Microsoft may have held information on these consoles for a while and chosen to choose now to ban, that is their choice, they have other commitments and November has always been ban season. They are defending their terms of use and protecting other live members. You really think your argument will stand up in court because I highly doubt it. Yes it's almost holiday season, yes there are big games coming, so what? Games are out every week, one could make that argument any week of the year (to me COD6 isn't a big deal, other games throughout the year have been).

Why would a banned user buy a new console with hdd when they have a hdd on their banned one? An arcade console did me just fine, a good bundle and selling off the unwanted stuff (inc. banned console) made money, not lost it. The timing of the bans is not an issue. The delayed ban tactics are not an issue.

Who's giving MS sympathy? We are pointing out the flaws in this case and finding a better reason/case. But I doubt there is one.

QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 19 2009, 02:59 PM)

Actually, when you buy a new car and want to change the stereo you void the warranty if you change anything from stock. You also need to use an adapter on most looms for it to fit the new head unit and in some the speakers don't work, or it can affect other parts of the car. My old MR2 had amps which I removed, once removed it disabled the starting circuits (or the whole electrics, I never looked too hard in to it, just put the amps back).

Actually they can't refuse warranted work unless they can prove that the modifications to your car caused the problem, i.e. you got an aftermarket stereo and your fuel pump breaks, if its not related it doesnt affect your warranty. thats how it is in texas anyway.

QUOTE(liteon6x @ Nov 19 2009, 08:22 AM)

THis is the stupidest thread i have ever seen Microsoft banned the system, you can still use your live service if you bought a next console

epic fail by law firm
Ms did nto rip those people off they did it to them selves

Maybe not every person can afford a new xbox, therefore the live account is useless.

------------------

I think the law firm would have a good case if they included the following:

-Forza 3 early play bans Permanent LIVE account suspensions, users can lose access to purchased DLC say if they changed consoles due to RROD or other mishap or just upgraded from a xenon to a jasper.
-Hard drive crippling
-Unable to stream videos to banned console

The fact of the matter is if you are banned and you actually are legit game buyer and you didn't mod the console or you bought the console used from a gamestop or such or any other mishap that gets your console perm banned, MS makes it hard to contact them. Calling 18004myxbox, well they will blow you off there too. MS makes it almost impossible to reverse the ban, nearly impossible to contact them and prove your are legit. I don't know if MS actually bans legit players, basically I am saying they do not give anyone a chance to prove them wrong really. You have to go through hoops to get through to them. They should have a ban appeal process on their web page where people can submit anything such as a game receipt, ie early forza players.

I will call or email the law firm to give them more details maybe they dont know.

I don't know why all you people come in here defending MS. They are an evil corp. They have stolen to get where they are, they are no better then the pirates the ban. Remember that lady that spilled coffee on her lap at McD's and sued and won, well duh we all know coffee is hot and it will burn if it spills on you. We don't need a label on a coffee cup saying "Hey dumbass this shit is hot don't spill it on yourself" Thats a bad lawsuit for example there and was won, so with that this lawsuit could have a hope.

I have a question also: (may sound stupid)

Isn't putting a new faceplate on your console "modifying" your CONSOLE. It does not say motherboard, or DVD drive. Console is the whole thing. What does it say in the TOS exactly. Does it say modify your DVD drive, or Motherboard to play COPIED games? Then why aren't blank CD's illegal??? This is such a THIN line. I can understand banning for playing PIRATED games, but not your own backups.

Or if I paint it isn't that modifying it?

What happens if I put better heatsink on my CPU and GPU isn't that modifying it? or a better fan to keep it cooler.

There is A LOT they can argue on this. But I think this is a bad idea.

Look im dissapointed that i got banned, we all are. But WE all knew what could happen, and it did. So now we sue M$, yeah great. It cost them millions to sort out thier badly made consoles and this could cost them millions as well. I dont care 2 shits if they loose millions or even billions! But I do love the Xbox and I can see them just taking it off the shelves. The new f/w will be here soon. If you cant wait then buy a Benq and flash it with a non-stealth version of ixtreme 1.41. They were crafty but just swallow your toungue and ride the storm

QUOTE(Lsd @ Nov 19 2009, 01:42 PM)

Can somebody answer this for me? If you join this lawsuit, wouldn't that give M$ your personal info, as in they could go after you for piracy? If i was banned, i would stay the hell away from this lawsuit. I mean what other reason is there to mod your system other than to play backups?

um did you not give personal info when you signed up for live
name adress cc numbers etc/???

QUOTE(moddrboy @ Nov 19 2009, 04:15 PM)

Look im dissapointed that i got banned, we all are. But WE all knew what could happen, and it did. So now we sue M$, yeah great. It cost them millions to sort out thier badly made consoles and this could cost them millions as well. I dont care 2 shits if they loose millions or even billions! But I do love the Xbox and I can see them just taking it off the shelves. The new f/w will be here soon. If you cant wait then buy a Benq and flash it with a non-stealth version of ixtreme 1.41. They were crafty but just swallow your toungue and ride the storm

for banning my 2 unmodded systems and others i know where banned without mods i hope they give it up
tired of companies over stepping

if you can see firmware great if you can see copied dvds greeat
but stop banning people not modded nad accept the mistake and fix them already
or go to hell and stop making junk systems

QUOTE(nafeasonto @ Nov 19 2009, 04:09 PM)

I have a question also: (may sound stupid)

Isn't putting a new faceplate on your console "modifying" your CONSOLE. It does not say motherboard, or DVD drive. Console is the whole thing. What does it say in the TOS exactly. Does it say modify your DVD drive, or Motherboard to play COPIED games? Then why aren't blank CD's illegal??? This is such a THIN line. I can understand banning for playing PIRATED games, but not your own backups.

Or if I paint it isn't that modifying it?

What happens if I put better heatsink on my CPU and GPU isn't that modifying it? or a better fan to keep it cooler.

There is A LOT they can argue on this. But I think this is a bad idea.

from what customer suport says all the above maybe not faceplate but all others above is groudns for ban
fan upgrades gpu cpu rrod fixes drive replacements abnormal voltage draws you name it its grounds for banning or flaggin that leadds to banning

QUOTE(Darkelysium @ Nov 19 2009, 01:35 AM)

A) By corrupting your saves for use on other consoles they are technically damaging your property.

Banning a console from life for violating the tos would be viewed by many in the legal community as blocking the owner of the console from the service and would require a refund as returning access to the service technically costs $200 and that valuation exceeds the value of the service cost.

C) The install feature is included in all new units and is therefore retroactive on all old units. I.e. it is a feature that one paid for in the purchase of the 360 (free updates) and therefore microsoft can not technically deprive you of this garnered functionality (once given)without violating the consumer protection act as well as possibly a number of other laws.

D) Microsoft has crossed the line as much as those who have modded their boxes and two wrongs don't make a right in court.

E) proving you used your modded xbox360 for copyright infringement is a very difficult and costly proposition as they would have to literally catch you with physical copies of the game. Searching hard drives, houses, etc for said evidence would be time consuming and cost exhorbitant amounts of money, as well as violate privacy laws. Microsoft may have a lot of money but they don't have enough to sustain this type of action. As for records of playing possible burned games. It would be a battle of the experts and without physical evidence would end up being all uphill for microsoft.

F) As much as people are like "you took the risk modding your box quit whining", I'd like to remind them that no matter what no one is above the law, not even Microsoft, so banning people people is completely legal but changing the functionality of the modded 360 in regards to the hard drive is essentially damaging the product. And for those who keep going the hard drive isn't damaged, you are correct it is physical nand in the 360 that has been damaged, and the corrupted saves and profiles are damaged which is a biproduct of what for all intents and purpose was an illegal middle finger from microsoft. Yes I say illegal because it is.

And who says us modders aren't educated? That thar is sum gud lawyerin son.

QUOTE(moddrboy @ Nov 19 2009, 04:15 PM)

Look im dissapointed that i got banned, we all are. But WE all knew what could happen, and it did. So now we sue M$, yeah great. It cost them millions to sort out thier badly made consoles and this could cost them millions as well. I dont care 2 shits if they loose millions or even billions! But I do love the Xbox and I can see them just taking it off the shelves. The new f/w will be here soon. If you cant wait then buy a Benq and flash it with a non-stealth version of ixtreme 1.41. They were crafty but just swallow your toungue and ride the storm

Dude , it's not the point of being banned for pirating games. It's the point of being banned for modding your system.

MS doesn't let you use third party HD's, third party Memory cards. It's BS. Sony does. PLus the fact modifying your xbox to play Backups was the entire point to having blank cd's. Fine ban for PIRATING. That makes sense, and is justifiable. But don't ban for backing up your game, because if your cd scratches because the Xbox 360 does it, i am supposed to pay another 35 to 65 dollars on the same copy of the game, it's BS.

Or, send in the UPC label of your game and the Receipt where you bought to prove your COPIED game is legal and not pirated.

QUOTE(death69inc @ Nov 19 2009, 04:21 PM)

um did you not give personal info when you signed up for live
name adress cc numbers etc/???
for banning my 2 unmodded systems and others i know where banned without mods i hope they give it up
tired of companies over stepping

if you can see firmware great if you can see copied dvds greeat
but stop banning people not modded nad accept the mistake and fix them already
or go to hell and stop making junk systems
from what customer suport says all the above maybe not faceplate but all others above is groudns for ban
fan upgrades gpu cpu rrod fixes drive replacements abnormal voltage draws you name it its grounds for banning or flaggin that leadds to banning

You can't be serious, painting my XBox 360 is cause for banning? That's bullshit. Absolute bullshit. And keeping the CPU cooler. Wow that is just BULLSHIT.

This to me Just sounds like a way to draw people out and get the to admit to doing something wrong and if it wasn't microsoft could turn around and counter and end up getting them for playing pirated software. I'd be a little scared of giving my name and info out to anyone. Just like sounds like some kind of trap to me.

QUOTE(death69inc @ Nov 19 2009, 04:21 PM)

um did you not give personal info when you signed up for live
name adress cc numbers etc/???

People actually give their real addresses?

QUOTE(mike171562 @ Nov 19 2009, 02:46 PM)

Actually they can't refuse warranted work unless they can prove that the modifications to your car caused the problem, i.e. you got an aftermarket stereo and your fuel pump breaks, if its not related it doesnt affect your warranty. thats how it is in texas anyway.

It varys in country, and in what you actually do. It's comparing apples and oranges so lets not go there.

QUOTE(BoNg420 @ Nov 19 2009, 02:50 PM)

I think the law firm would have a good case if they included the following:

-Forza 3 early play bans Permanent LIVE account suspensions, users can lose access to purchased DLC say if they changed consoles due to RROD or other mishap or just upgraded from a xenon to a jasper.
-Hard drive crippling
-Unable to stream videos to banned console
The fact of the matter is if you are banned and you actually are legit game buyer and you didn't mod the console or you bought the console used from a gamestop or such or any other mishap that gets your console perm banned, MS makes it hard to contact them. Calling 18004myxbox, well they will blow you off there too. MS makes it almost impossible to reverse the ban, nearly impossible to contact them and prove your are legit. I don't know if MS actually bans legit players, basically I am saying they do not give anyone a chance to prove them wrong really. You have to go through hoops to get through to them. They should have a ban appeal process on their web page where people can submit anything such as a game receipt, ie early forza players.

I will call or email the law firm to give them more details maybe they dont know.

I don't know why all you people come in here defending MS. They are an evil corp. They have stolen to get where they are, they are no better then the pirates the ban. Remember that lady that spilled coffee on her lap at McD's and sued and won, well duh we all know coffee is hot and it will burn if it spills on you. We don't need a label on a coffee cup saying "Hey dumbass this shit is hot don't spill it on yourself" Thats a bad lawsuit for example there and was won, so with that this lawsuit could have a hope.

Playing games early is against their TOS. We all know the street dates. You'll find that a lot of F3 players who were banned actually had a dodgy copy. I played early, by a day, I am fine. Others have played early by more and are fine.
HDD Crippling is a grey area as to the fairness of this however there are reasons they could use with regards to security of xbox live etc. as the consoles were modified to run unsigned content so now lose the right/ability to sign content.
Video streaming to a banned console works fine if you have the codec. As an extender it doesn't work but I can still stream movies and music to my banned consoles.

Those who claim to be blameless and banned all seem to be on here and all have the knowledge. I find it harder and harder to believe these "I was banned for no reason" or "I was banned for cutting a window in the side of my console" claims. However, they have a case and should take it up with Microsoft or the store they purchased it at.

Out of interest, what have Microsoft stolen?

QUOTE(nafeasonto @ Nov 19 2009, 03:09 PM)

I have a question also: (may sound stupid)

Isn't putting a new faceplate on your console "modifying" your CONSOLE. It does not say motherboard, or DVD drive. Console is the whole thing. What does it say in the TOS exactly. Does it say modify your DVD drive, or Motherboard to play COPIED games? Then why aren't blank CD's illegal??? This is such a THIN line. I can understand banning for playing PIRATED games, but not your own backups.

Or if I paint it isn't that modifying it?

What happens if I put better heatsink on my CPU and GPU isn't that modifying it? or a better fan to keep it cooler.

There is A LOT they can argue on this. But I think this is a bad idea.

Changing faceplate does not cause bans and is no cause for a ban. The faceplate is an accessory much like your controller, headset, av cable etc.

Blank CDs and DVDs are sold for more than just so you can pirate stuff. I use CDs and DVDs daily for backing up my files, creating installation discs for applications, issuing digital documentation, creating music CDs for people who have recorded their own stuff, making DVDs of "home movies". The line is not at all thin.

If you open your console you may be compromising the security of your console, regardless of if you add a fan, heatsink or whatever. This is enough ground for Microsoft to ban you to protect the security of xbox live and it's other users.

Haha the only people who make money on class action suits of this nature is the lawyers..

Though the idea of suing the shit out of Microsoft because we got caught doing stupid shit is a great idea in this economy, I wouldn't be surprised if everyone got permanently banned from Live! because of this ridiculous lawsuit. You have to take into account all of the legal shit Microsoft tied into there TOS, for example:

1) You own the hardware, you do not own the software wich is on the hardware or makes the hardware work, you are licensed by Microsoft to use the software wich in turn runs the hardware.. Shitty yes, legal yes, yours? Nope.. You can in fact legally replace the software that operates the hardware, if it ALL gets replaced. This is why projects like Xbox-Linux Free60 and libxenon are legal.

2) They do not cripple your save games, your Xbox can in fact still function as a gaming console. You just cant use your saves on another Xbox, this sadly is also perfectly legal. The xbox runs on a license system everything is hardcoded with DRM, If your console gets banned it can no longer sign personal content, therefore it cannot be used on another system.

3) Downloadable Content, again.. Licensing, You do not own the DLC, you own a license to use it. This license can be revoked at anytime for any number of reasons. If your gamertag is still active and you are using your DLC on the same xbox you have purchased it on, then it will still work on THAT xbox. If you are using it on a different xbox you have to be signed into live to use it.

4) Physical Media, this is where it kind of boggles me... But according to Microsoft/The Videogame Industry, You don't really own this. You own a license to use it in your game console, You can not make a digital copy unless authorized by the owner of the software. When you sell/trade/lend out your copy of the game, you are transfering your license to a 3rd party and are no longer legally allowed to use it, hence the reason you can not run it from your HDD anymore and a disc is needed in the drive.

Microsoft has everyone by the balls, They are a multi billion dollar corporation that employs hackers AND modders to battle everything that we throw at em. They know how to word everything in order to keep there asses out of trouble. Obviously Microsoft would do this seeing as its CEO is the richest pirate in the world. Gotta love a country where a company can start up by stealing an operating system, re-branding it, and earn billions.

[/rant]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 19 2009, 05:00 AM)

Actually, the Xbox Live agreement says they have the right to add and remove features at any time without notice...

the key words here are "xbox live", the hard drive install does not need it to function, it does not function as a result of xbox live. If you never connected to xbox live it would still work. In this way its more of a case of ownership. Let us not forget some countires do not have laws forbidding the modification of hardware you own. In most countries making a "personal" backup is a right by law.

You could argue that you pay for the liscence to use the hardware. It's just not so, you pay to physically own it, there's no "rental" or hardware liscencing agreement at the point of sale. You agree when you sign up to the live TOS to abide by the rules of the service or face forfieture of that service. You do not agree for them to remove functionality of the console that was sold as part of the package you bought.

Not everyone is a pirate, in some territories if some people took this to court microsoft would have to prove an infringer was indeed infirnging the copyright laws. Statutory right always will over ride a broad reaching EULA, or TOS if it's found that it infringes on a persons rights as a consumor.

And you have those poor people who try to save a few bucks buy getting a pre owned console from EB games gamestop etc etc only to find out 10 months later its banned because the store sold them a modified console that was pre owned. Technically the end user did not "knowingly or willfully" break the TOS.

Lastly, more importantly and why this case should go to court. How do we know that microsofts detection system does not produce false positives. There's no right to appeal, and you have no right way of having their enforcement policies and techniques reviewed by a third party.

Piracy effects the industry there's no dount about it. But companies need to learn punishing infringers does not work, it creates animosity, you'll never convert someone into a consumor that hates you. Unfortunatly a class action lawsuit like this is small potatoes for microsoft. They settle lawsuits everyday, they have the kind of capital to quietly settle the problematic ones before they ever get to a court. Unfortunaly the ONLY way to hurt a company as a big as microsoft and force a re evaluation of their operating policies is when a government agency takes intrest. And with the current climate regarding copyright infringement, its highly unlikley anyone will push the issue.

i did something that was against the toc's of microsoft. I pressed the button and said I agree to them. I didn't obey them! I got banned. End of. if you dont like thire toc's then dont accept them. buy a PS3 and buy your originals for that. sorry for being blunt but it is all there clearly in black and white

QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 19 2009, 04:40 PM)

If you open your console you may be compromising the security of your console, regardless of if you add a fan, heatsink or whatever. This is enough ground for Microsoft to ban you to protect the security of xbox live and it's other users.

from microsofts own customer service
if you buy a controller that is not microsoft certified
a 3rd party fan or hdd
anything basically microsoft doesnt get money for you can get banned

painting your case doesnt get you banned but does void warentee

i will say a class action suit for xbl lstt time isnt going to hurt microcrap much
i want to see full blown suit over the hdd tampering and the false bannings
antitrust issues with the terms of use etc etc

I dont know about you but i still say i never signed anything never recorreded my voice agreeing to anything a button push to me that anyone can do doesnt mean i agreed to the new terms
my old terms of use i agreed to did not have the #20 line in it it has been added with last update or so was not included in terms 2 yearsa ago when i signed up for live and had it a big 48 hours lol i dotn remebr seeing it 2 monthas ago when i didi my 12month now getting wasted

To all those bitching about not being able to install to HD..give it up.. Microsoft is simply protecting their IP...
the console is banned, so they should continue to allow you to install pirated games on the HD???
It is being blocked BECAUSE you can use pirated games on it offline.. thats the entire reasoning...
They might not be able to stop you from using disk's but that doesn't mean they shouldn't stop you from using the HD installs...

And the ones bitching that they can't afford to get a new 360... WTF?? Why did you take that risk to begin with then?? It is stupid to mod a console you KNOW you can't replace and you KNOW will likely get banned and it is stupid to take said modded console on line to get caught..
Sorry but I have zero sympathy.. you made the choice so you must live with that choices consequences...

Now as to the lawsuit in particular...
So what if M$ chooses Nov??? they have NO obligation to choose a convenient month for pirates to bring the ban hammer. In fact, I suspect Nov and the imminent release of High profile games is a driving factor to USE Nov. What better way to get pirates legal than by depriving them of high profile games unless they go legit? It is not illegal and the case has zero merit.

Did anyone cruise through the lawfirms site? According to the info they provide on their site, they have 1 attorney. I'd think a respectable "go getter" law firm would have more then 1 attorney. Maybe some partners?

Ambulance chasing anyone?

While I don't agree with the lawsuit, some folks have brought up some very valid points in this thread. It's interesting to read and see what other folks think about this, how they feel about it, and what their perspective is about the subject.

My 2 cents here:
Crippling the hard drive - yeah pretty hoakie, but as someone mentioned, it's returning it to original functionality. (Or is it?) My question - if I go buy a new xbox today, does it have this functionality already or do I have to connect to Live for a downloaded update like the DiVX install?

If the xbox was your product and Live was your product - how could you determine who was playing a legitimit backup vs an illegal copied game? You can't. So it doesn't matter where you got your backup, the only recourse was to block all the consoles found playing backups. Legit or not. Don't know why folks love to beat that one up. Yes, some countries and even states allow you to make a backup of you property - but if a company trying to protect its product cannot determine which is which, they have no choice but to ban them all. Tough love there I think.

As for the lawsuit stating going after those who have not received a refund: well, your account is not banned. (Not going there with the gamer tag bans - different story). You can get another xbox and still use the product (Live). Not sure what MS will say if you call and state - I want to cancel my service - I'd like a prorated refund. Anyone have the official response?

I'd hate to see something like this effect the future of the Xbox console line. It may not as the Live service is a good money maker for MS - the hardware as we all know, is not a money maker for MS. (The consoles that is.) - Either way, I'm looking forward to a next generation xbox and all of the challenges it will bring with it to modding community.

Ok I'm done - just wanted to throw all that in here.

without agreeing or disagreeing with the possibility of a class-action lawsuit (because quite frankly, its still up in the air for me as I see both sides) but the law firm IS investigating the HDD crippling and corrupting of gamesaves/profiles as stated on their website. hxxp://www.abingtonlaw.com/Xbox-Live-class-action.html

"Additional *reported* problems resulting from the bans include, but are not necessarily limited to:
* Disabling/altering Xbox functionality *NOT* associated with Xbox Live (HDD functionality for example),
* Disabling/altering Xbox functionality *NOT* associated with piracy,
* Obtaining information from Xbox consoles without permission of the owner,
* There are other problems/consequenses associated with these bans that have been reported here and elsewhere. "

Just wanted to add this in here since so many people claim this should be their focus (and I agree) but it will only become their focus if we speak up and tell them instead of griping about it here.

one can argue that you are FORCED to:

1. PAY and play on their xbox live service when there no alternative and xlink crippled on purpose (antitrust)

2. take updates with new games, no option around it. and by doing so crippling your console.

if you were not forced to use live noone would accept the eula

also corrupting YOUR keyvault and saves cant be legal. even tho they made the key you bought it with the console. (see 1)

20. Changes to the Service; If We Cancel the Service.

We may change the Service or delete or discontinue features, games, or other content at any time and for any reason (or no reason). We may cancel or suspend your Service at any time. Our cancellation or suspension may be without cause and without notice. Upon Service cancellation, your right to use the Service stops right away. Once the Service is cancelled or suspended, any data you have stored on the Service may not be retrieved later. Our cancellation of the Service will not alter your obligation to pay all charges made to your billing account. If we cancel the Service in its entirety without cause, then we will refund to you on a pro-rata basis the amount of payment that you have made corresponding to the portion of your Service remaining at the time ofcancellation.

I see features being the marketplace and stuff like that games being arcade downloads and other content being netflix which is all related to xbox live or use of xbox live but not the xbox it self. when did using windows media center on xbox affect xbox live or installing games to the hdd affect xbox live it is called "Xbox LIVE and Games for Windows LIVE Terms of Use" not xbox terms of use.

In my eyes even tho i am not a lawyer it should state we can disable your offline ability when you violate the online Terms of Use which it don't.

good luck with your groundless lawsuit, I hope your lawyer is slick enough to win.

I was under the impression that if you sign a contract (or agree to a virtual TOS) while you were intoxicated, then the contract is void.

Maybe we should all claim drunk! lol

You guys arent understanding the purpose for the law suite. Its all about the timing of the ban. For example ..imagine me with a modded system, but I dont have a gold account, only silver. So, when Halo or MW2 comes out and I want to play them, so I go and purchace a gold account. Now, M$ knew my system was modded earlier in the year, but they wait until there is a game I want to play on live before the do a "million ban march". Now because I dont want to waste my live gold sub, Im forced to buy a new system ..which is even more revenue for m$.

Basically saying.. why wasnt the "million ban march" in the spring/summer when there was no good games coming out!

QUOTE(nitussi @ Nov 19 2009, 05:54 PM)

You guys arent understanding the purpose for the law suite. Its all about the timing of the ban. For example ..imagine me with a modded system, but I dont have a gold account, only silver. So, when Halo or MW2 comes out and I want to play them, so I go and purchace a gold account. Now, M$ knew my system was modded earlier in the year, but they wait until there is a game I want to play on live before the do a "million ban march". Now because I dont want to waste my live gold sub, Im forced to buy a new system ..which is even more revenue for m$.

Basically saying.. why wasnt the "million ban march" in the summer when there was no good games coming out!

Additional *reported* problems resulting from the bans include, but are not necessarily limited to:
* Disabling/altering Xbox functionality *NOT* associated with Xbox Live (HDD functionality for example),
* Disabling/altering Xbox functionality *NOT* associated with piracy,
* Obtaining information from Xbox consoles without permission of the owner,
* There are other problems/consequenses associated with these bans that have been reported here and elsewhere.

straight from class action website

QUOTE(Puffer @ Nov 18 2009, 11:17 PM)

Lets not forget that the HDD installs are NOT part of the original functionality of the hardware, but an added benefit given by MS through a system update. So, technically, no they didn't limit the hardware, they returned it to its original state.

They weren't a part of the original launch consoles, but every console currently sold has this function and it is now considered part of the hardware. Technically they ARE crippling the functionality of a piece of hardware that I own. (FWIW, one of my consoles was banned a couple of years ago, I was not part of the recent ban wave and I do have an unmodded console).

Please remember that a EULA or TOS are neither laws nor written in stone. Companies can change them at any point, and the public has no choice in the matter unless the courts get involved. Let the courts decide if MS's timing was illegal or just good business practice.

QUOTE(nitussi @ Nov 19 2009, 06:54 PM)

You guys arent understanding the purpose for the law suite. Its all about the timing of the ban. For example ..imagine me with a modded system, but I dont have a gold account, only silver. So, when Halo or MW2 comes out and I want to play them, so I go and purchace a gold account. Now, M$ knew my system was modded earlier in the year, but they wait until there is a game I want to play on live before the do a "million ban march". Now because I dont want to waste my live gold sub, Im forced to buy a new system ..which is even more revenue for m$.

Basically saying.. why wasnt the "million ban march" in the spring/summer when there was no good games coming out!

Not sure about this but havent people been saying ban waves happen this time every year?

I will eat my shoes if they win this case......

being banned for modified dvd drive... = no win easy... its in the TOS for christ sakes...lol so you wont win with that argument...

the crippling of the hdd tho... is where they have the chance to win the argument...just because u are banned from live because of *&backups* is one thing, disabling the entire system from being able to play offline.... is not a good thing for M$

show me in the TOS or anything where it says anything about the HDD crippling....

(they probly have some small print at the bottom of the tos they slipped in last patch to say *we have the right to fuck up your system at will*

<3 the competition even more because of micronazis pathetic moves!

Hmm not sure if this was pointed out since I did not go through all the pages but if you sign up to be part of the Class Action Law Suit to 'get back' at Microsoft, you're basically signing up saying 'Yes I admit I have a Modded Console!'

I don't think Microsoft should have to refund the money for the Xbox Live Service time not used. You paid for the Xbox Live Service and it's still there, you just don't have an Xbox that can go on Live (because the terms of service was broken by using a modded console online).

QUOTE(Mr_Milenko @ Nov 19 2009, 09:48 AM)

4) Physical Media, this is where it kind of boggles me... But according to Microsoft/The Videogame Industry, You don't really own this. You own a license to use it in your game console, You can not make a digital copy unless authorized by the owner of the software. When you sell/trade/lend out your copy of the game, you are transfering your license to a 3rd party and are no longer legally allowed to use it, hence the reason you can not run it from your HDD anymore and a disc is needed in the drive.

Microsoft has everyone by the balls, They are a multi billion dollar corporation that employs hackers AND modders to battle everything that we throw at em. They know how to word everything in order to keep there asses out of trouble. Obviously Microsoft would do this seeing as its CEO is the richest pirate in the world. Gotta love a country where a company can start up by stealing an operating system, re-branding it, and earn billions.
[/rant]

I'm not going to argue with your other points, although I have issues with them as well.
The fact that MS and the videogame industry as a whole insist that we are licensing the video game doesn't matter. The law is what matters. Stop perpetuating the myth that we don't own a video game. We do. Game publishers are currently trying to end the secondary market (reselling of video games), they just haven't come up with a tactic that the public will stomach yet, be it single use codes or legislation that would force retailers to pay a portion of the game sales back to the publisher. We, as the buying public, don't have to stand for these strong-armed tactics. Force the issue with your wallets.

QUOTE(nitussi @ Nov 19 2009, 08:54 AM)

You guys arent understanding the purpose for the law suite. Its all about the timing of the ban. For example ..imagine me with a modded system, but I dont have a gold account, only silver. So, when Halo or MW2 comes out and I want to play them, so I go and purchace a gold account. Now, M$ knew my system was modded earlier in the year, but they wait until there is a game I want to play on live before the do a "million ban march". Now because I dont want to waste my live gold sub, Im forced to buy a new system ..which is even more revenue for m$.

Basically saying.. why wasnt the "million ban march" in the spring/summer when there was no good games coming out!

Can't really fault Microsoft for the timing of the banning. What does it matter that they decided to ban the systems that went against their terms of service at the start of the year or the end of the year? Either way, the Terms of Service was still broken. It's like saying ' they have evidence of me robbing a bank but they decided to throw me into jail 5 months later right after I booked a trip to Hawaii. Why diden't they throw me into jail right away?'

I just love all the morons who were posting about all the people "bitching and whining" about being banned chiming in by the dozens, and what are they doing? BITCHING AND WHINING about how this is a BS lawsuit and "everyone that mods should take it like a man!" If it doesn't effect you fine, upstanding, law obiding citizens, then why do you care? Oh yeah, you gotta whine about something!!!

Face it, Microsoft overstepped their boundaries and it is gonna end up costing them one way or another in the long run, be it people switching to PS3, not renewing their Live subscriptions, etc... And they deserve it!!! As I've said before, there are PLENTY of good reasons other than piracy to modify a console, and for them to not ban, but screw with people's already saved data and stuff like that is just plain horsecrap. I suppose my son's gamertag which WAS NOT Live enabled deserved to be corrupted and all his Gamerscore and Game Saves lost because his dad modified the console to make backups of games like Lego Indiana Jones and Halo, so the kids don't scratch the crap out of them and then the household has NO GAME and out the $60 right? YEAH, that's fair!

How about people just get off their high horses and STFU if it doesn't effect you! Go form an anti-piracy advocate group where you can all hug and kiss and share stories of the horrors of the piracy running wild across the world!!! TARDS!

QUOTE(sippin40ozs @ Nov 19 2009, 12:24 PM)

I just love all the morons who were posting about all the people "bitching and whining" about being banned chiming in by the dozens, and what are they doing? BITCHING AND WHINING about how this is a BS lawsuit and "everyone that mods should take it like a man!" If it doesn't effect you fine, upstanding, law obiding citizens, then why do you care? Oh yeah, you gotta whine about something!!!

Face it, Microsoft overstepped their boundaries and it is gonna end up costing them one way or another in the long run, be it people switching to PS3, not renewing their Live subscriptions, etc... And they deserve it!!! As I've said before, there are PLENTY of good reasons other than piracy to modify a console, and for them to not ban, but screw with people's already saved data and stuff like that is just plain horsecrap. I suppose my son's gamertag which WAS NOT Live enabled deserved to be corrupted and all his Gamerscore and Game Saves lost because his dad modified the console to make backups of games like Lego Indiana Jones and Halo, so the kids don't scratch the crap out of them and then the household has NO GAME and out the $60 right? YEAH, that's fair!

How about people just get off their high horses and STFU if it doesn't effect you! Go form an anti-piracy advocate group where you can all hug and kiss and share stories of the horrors of the piracy running wild across the world!!! TARDS!

You can preach all you want about Microsoft just trying to protect their IP, and they have the right to do so but I bought my Xbox at which time it became my property they shouldn't have the right to disable features in the console itself that have no affect on xbox live.

The harddrive crippling and the removing the ability to use it as a media center extender aren't protecting anything they are just being vengeful. If they were truely concerned about protecting the console from piracy they would disable the dvd-rom not the harddrive. You can still play games on a banned console they are removing just enough functionality to piss you off.

I do buy games, games that I will actually play for any considerable amount of time, if its a game I will play a few times and then toss it aside no I will not pay $60 for that, but I did just pay damn near $100 for Forza 3 with shipping and tax and two weeks later I get banned. Hell I haven't even had a pirated game in my xbox in months. That will change though I will not pay for another game for the remainder of the XBox 360 life span.

I admit fault I modded my Xbox, you want to ban me from Xbox Live fine Xbox Live is their property don't fuck with the console I paid for that is mine. Fuck Microsoft and fuck any of you that take their side in these childish vindictive practices.

QUOTE(xbones @ Nov 19 2009, 01:24 AM)

ok how about this example? You are a father of a 12 or 16 year old. You obviously have to pay the subscription fees for your son/daughter... The xbox gets banned and/or the live account with it. You have no idea why because you never did anything with it (maybe the kids did).. Anyway you call microsoft to get your money back because you just purchased 12 months on live 2 weeks before the banning and now your children can't play it.
The person who paid never did anything wrong and they were the one who abide by the contact.. The kids can't be held accountable and the parents didn't do anything wrong..

Shouldn't they get their money back for time they didn't use?

I think that's more what this lawsuit is protecting. The kids who use the xbox 360's aren't always the ones paying the bills.

Your responsible for your kids actions. If your kids break a window your paying for it.

Maybe the peeps at the law firm had modded systems and were banned so they are trying to sue because of it, lol. Would be funny if they had been banned.

Adding to my earlier post, crippling the HDD only means if you want to still use your banned system with that HDD and not worry about corrupt data you need a second HDD which means buying an Elite or the new MW2 bundle system, not an Arcade unless you already have a second HDD or can get one very cheap. Does seem even more like a marketing move along with trying to stop pirating.

I just feel bad for people who didn't flash their drives but added lights or fans to the inside of their system and got banned. Maybe some people had the 12v fan mod done to their system because having that done was much cheaper than buying a new system. I understand that still is modifying from the original, but seems like crap they would be banned since they just were trying to lengthen the life span of their system. Sucks for them but M$ was in the right since it was a modification.

My question is for anyone who had a system banned, did you go buy a new system and if so which one?

I personally bought the MW2 bundle since it would seem pointless to go with an Elite and buy MW2 when I could spend $40 more and get double the HDD and an extra controller. M$ will hit over 1 million consoles sold, or very close to it, this month and if not between this month and next they will be around 1.5 million consoles sold and I bet they will be 200k more than the Wii and 350k more than the PS3. Not bad if it happens considering they keep sliding on system sales to Nintendo and Sony.

If the lawsuit goes forward to actually happening, even if they loose or when more than likely, at least someone decided to point out that M$ may have known for a while about who had modded systems and that crippling the HDD like they did wasn't just to ban modded systems but to also make as many people as they can buy a new system and need to buy one with a HDD.

So ummm... if his live tag wasn't online enabled, why not just unplug the network cable and not get banned? Turns out his dad, in trying to protect his investment, was actually a TARD and didn't protect the larger investment in the picture. If you don't want the ban, don't hook your 360 up to live. Plain and simple, Just don't. you got no one to blame but yourself.

What it comes down to is, microsoft owns the system, the same as you own your property. You don't like people walking in to your house, jacking your shit and bailing. Why should they let you do the same with their property?

The difference here, is all microsoft is saying is please don't do it again, rather than coming after you with their 12-gauge for stealing from them.

Personally, I'm laughing pretty hard about all this. If you're gonna mod you 360, don't play on live. If the 360 is modded, don't plug in a network cable. Ever. Can't ban you then.

What I do regret, is that all these cheap banned xboxes up for sale can't be free60'ed anymore

This type of lawsuit, while interesting, gives me the feeling that they'll end up like TPB's.

QUOTE(jayneo8 @ Nov 19 2009, 06:27 PM)

http://img27.imageshack.us/i/ffffuuuu.jpg/ http://g.imageshack.us/img27/ffffuuuu.jpg/1/

Funny that's exactly how I picture you guys too!

KInd of hard for at least seeing myself admitting to even using a modified Xbox and then adding my name to a suit and giving them my info for Ms to possibly see if it goes to in front of a judge. By joining the suit you are, yourself admitting to having knowledge that the console is/ was modded becuase it does say if you had your modified Xbox banned please sign up and not leaving the vaguenes that maybe you purchased it that way or that Ms made a mistake and banned you for a false positive.

It would be funny if people who are not banned start signing up. Then M$ would have to detect those that are NOT banned.

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 06:34 PM)

So ummm... if his live tag wasn't online enabled, why not just unplug the network cable and not get banned? Turns out his dad, in trying to protect his investment, was actually a TARD and didn't protect the larger investment in the picture. If you don't want the ban, don't hook your 360 up to live. Plain and simple, Just don't. you got no one to blame but yourself.

What it comes down to is, microsoft owns the system, the same as you own your property. You don't like people walking in to your house, jacking your shit and bailing. Why should they let you do the same with their property?

The difference here, is all microsoft is saying is please don't do it again, rather than coming after you with their 12-gauge for stealing from them.
Personally, I'm laughing pretty hard about all this. If you're gonna mod you 360, don't play on live. If the 360 is modded, don't plug in a network cable. Ever. Can't ban you then.

Hey genius, I BUY the online games I like to play, and PAY for Live service for 2 OTHER people in the household... so am I not allowed to play legit games that I buy and pay for either? How is that fair to me when I'm paying for the console, the game, the service, I SHOULD GET IT!

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 06:34 PM)

rather than coming after you with their 12-gauge for stealing from them.

Still trying to figure out where I stole from them? It always comes back to you idiots preaching without knowing a damn thing about what you're talking about!!

I'm pretty sure I was helping their bottom line by buying all this crap... which I won't anymore obviously, and it looks like there are plenty of people that feel the same way!

So, again, why do you TARDS feel the need to chime in on this lawsuit when it doesn't effect you?

Maybe a good example for you simple minded guys that can't grasp why people are pissed is this:
If you had sat. tv and in the TOS for that it said you MUST keep your phone line plugged in at all times so the box can upload your purchasing data. Well, you have no phone line plugged in because well, you don't have a phone line by your TV and you never order pay per view... Would it be okay if they cut off your subscription for service to your Digital receiver even though you already payed and offered you no refund... Then, they came in your house and smashed that receiver since it wasn't plugged in to the phone line... I mean your Sat. dish is still there and it technically is still pulling a signal and works so all you need to do is buy a new receiver and you can watch again right!!! Yeah, that's fair!! Oh wait, that's right your banned xbox is still perfectly fine right they just disabled certain things, things YOU PAY FOR, like corrupting your data on your HD, or not to mention the people that modded fans to keep their CRAP made consoles from overheating? So I guess if they just made it so you could only watch one channel on that receiver that's cool then right? It works, it's just it can't do all the features you paid for... So that's cool right?

It amazes me you guys continue to argue as to why this is UNIVERSALLY right. If someone was caught playing a PIRATED game, ban the console, hell like someone said, disable the dvd drive and put that in the TOS that it will happen. NO, they don't do that, cuz they can't try to sell a TON of Live memberships and turn them into even more new consoles that way. THEY GOT GREEDY and they are gonna suffer in the long wrong. Just look at the backlash brewing already.

could be interesting, at least m$ will have to commit why and how they banned people!
as for 12v mods etc, there is absolutely no reason to ban people for that!
I rather see those bitches banned with rapid fire controllers!

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 19 2009, 05:14 PM)

To all those bitching about not being able to install to HD..give it up.. Microsoft is simply protecting their IP...
the console is banned, so they should continue to allow you to install pirated games on the HD???
It is being blocked BECAUSE you can use pirated games on it offline.. thats the entire reasoning...
They might not be able to stop you from using disk's but that doesn't mean they shouldn't stop you from using the HD installs...
And the ones bitching that they can't afford to get a new 360... WTF?? Why did you take that risk to begin with then?? It is stupid to mod a console you KNOW you can't replace and you KNOW will likely get banned and it is stupid to take said modded console on line to get caught..
Sorry but I have zero sympathy.. you made the choice so you must live with that choices consequences...
Now as to the lawsuit in particular...
So what if M$ chooses Nov??? they have NO obligation to choose a convenient month for pirates to bring the ban hammer. In fact, I suspect Nov and the imminent release of High profile games is a driving factor to USE Nov. What better way to get pirates legal than by depriving them of high profile games unless they go legit? It is not illegal and the case has zero merit.

WOW talk about a corporate whore.

QUOTE(sippin40ozs @ Nov 19 2009, 06:24 PM)

I just love all the morons who were posting about all the people "bitching and whining" about being banned chiming in by the dozens, and what are they doing? BITCHING AND WHINING about how this is a BS lawsuit and "everyone that mods should take it like a man!" If it doesn't effect you fine, upstanding, law obiding citizens, then why do you care? Oh yeah, you gotta whine about something!!!

Face it, Microsoft overstepped their boundaries and it is gonna end up costing them one way or another in the long run, be it people switching to PS3, not renewing their Live subscriptions, etc... And they deserve it!!! As I've said before, there are PLENTY of good reasons other than piracy to modify a console, and for them to not ban, but screw with people's already saved data and stuff like that is just plain horsecrap. I suppose my son's gamertag which WAS NOT Live enabled deserved to be corrupted and all his Gamerscore and Game Saves lost because his dad modified the console to make backups of games like Lego Indiana Jones and Halo, so the kids don't scratch the crap out of them and then the household has NO GAME and out the $60 right? YEAH, that's fair!

How about people just get off their high horses and STFU if it doesn't effect you! Go form an anti-piracy advocate group where you can all hug and kiss and share stories of the horrors of the piracy running wild across the world!!! TARDS!

+1

Seriously if you so much as touch your console with a game in it, the game is instantly destroyed. I hope this lawsuit does work out in the long run.

QUOTE(sippin40ozs @ Nov 19 2009, 07:24 PM)

Face it, Microsoft overstepped their boundaries and it is gonna end up costing them one way or another in the long run, be it people switching to PS3, not renewing their Live subscriptions, etc... And they deserve it!!!

Yeah i hope MS go bust

Personally I dont think that this will work. Microsoft have got one easy answer. "You can still use Xbox live, just not on that console." I.E. You are still getting the service you pay for. Im not sure about this but I didnt think that M$ gave refunds if a genuine user cancels early? If so why should someone who is banned get special treatment?

As for the timing, it was a very cleaver move by M$, I mean who doesn't want free money

. Still not sure if im banned yet, dont want to turn the console on until the new LT is released.

QUOTE(krwz @ Nov 19 2009, 12:10 PM)

Hmm not sure if this was pointed out since I did not go through all the pages but if you sign up to be part of the Class Action Law Suit to 'get back' at Microsoft, you're basically signing up saying 'Yes I admit I have a Modded Console!'

I don't think Microsoft should have to refund the money for the Xbox Live Service time not used. You paid for the Xbox Live Service and it's still there, you just don't have an Xbox that can go on Live (because the terms of service was broken by using a modded console online).

Why does that matter, you could be a legit play that got banned.

Also Im sure MS could hunt you down other ways. You login at your house, trace your connection, most people give them a real address when signing up, trust me if they wanted to hunt you down for a modded console they have all the tools they could to find you.

QUOTE(BoNg420 @ Nov 19 2009, 07:09 PM)

Why does that matter, you could be a legit play that got banned.

Also Im sure MS could hunt you down other ways. You login at your house, trace your connection, most people give them a real address when signing up, trust me if they wanted to hunt you down for a modded console they have all the tools they could to find you.

And more importantly, it's not ILLEGAL to have a modded console... Just against MS's money grubbing, BS terms of service! I have gotten more use out of my old xboxes by having them modded to use as media centers than I ever would have from my 360's, or set top dvd players, etc... But now MS just wants to screw it's biggest fan base. Not a smart move IMHO.

QUOTE(XanTium @ Nov 19 2009, 12:04 AM)

yea, I'm surprised too ... the HDD Crippling would make more sense than what they are trying to go after.
They are probably clueless about the whole thing ... maybe someone should inform them.

maybe they added this in after the original post.

Additional *reported* problems resulting from the bans include, but are not necessarily limited to:
* Disabling/altering Xbox functionality *NOT* associated with Xbox Live (HDD functionality for example),
* Disabling/altering Xbox functionality *NOT* associated with piracy,
* Obtaining information from Xbox consoles without permission of the owner,
* There are other problems/consequenses associated with these bans that have been reported here and elsewhere

But they are aware and are listing it as an issue of law.

People keep talking about the affect on the end user. I don't really get how its Microsoft's fault if your dishonest enough to sell a console and not say it is banned..Seems like another classic case of a lot of you not taking any responsibility for your actions.It's no wonder we live in the nanny state we do now..

I hope that Microsoft countersues everyone involved in this, because they are basically admitting guilt in playing illegal copies online (don't give me the legit backup BS, you're all pirates). It's not like your Live account was taken away, just the privileges of using the illegal modifications made to that specific console (which by the way you agreed to in the TOS). This case won't be going anywhere.

What would screw MS is if 100 people or 1,000 people got banned and did nothing wrong. That in my opinion is the direction to go, if they can't find 5 people or 10 people that didn't do anything wrong, then I don't think you would have case.
Now if 100 people can prove that they never modded their system and got banned, that would be VERY BAD PR for MS and if those people didn't take settlement (off the record), but won the case, the JUDGE may order MS to remove all prior bans. You can't ban people who did nothing wrong and obviously MS way of banning is faulty and NEEDS to be reversed. That would help all of us. Forget the money part if it, it can go to lawyers, but unbanning because of Flawed method, could be Major Headache for MS.

The problem is that in the Xbox Live TOS it doesn't say that they will or even can cripple the offline features of the system just that they can take action on the Xbox Live service. Feel free to point out where it says that they can screw with the offline features.

Not even commenting on the plausibility of this case, it's really disheartening to see many people's arguments amount to "they are soooo huge and rich, you can't possibly win, just give up!". No one is above the law, no matter how rich they are, and if you feel like your legal rights have been stepped on, you SHOULD take action.

Although the supposed crime here is nothing this bad, consider if you got raped by a random person on the street. If it turns out that person is Bill Gates, are you automatically going to throw up your hands and say "Welp, he has too much money for me to prosecute, so I'll just let it go." Do you know how stupid that argument sounds? It's true that money often plays a large part in the world and in the legal system, but it's by no means the only thing that matters. Just because you're a "little" person doesn't mean you don't have any power...giving the common person empowerment is the whole idea behind the founding of the USA. You have rights, so if you feel like you have a case on this xbox banning, you should by all means pursue.

If this case does happen, the burden of proof will be on MS. They will have to provide solid evidence that these bans were just. If they are banning solely because of "different response times of commands", I think they will have to do a LOT better than that to hold up. I'm pretty sure that's the reason this case is even being considered, apart from the timings of the bans. Law is a tricky thing...just because they have a "good hunch" that you're doing something wrong will not get them a favorable ruling....they better pony up some hard evidence.

QUOTE(tactical @ Nov 19 2009, 12:37 PM)

What would screw MS is if 100 people or 1,000 people got banned and did nothing wrong. That in my opinion is the direction to go, if they can't find 5 people or 10 people that didn't do anything wrong, then I don't think you would have case.
Now if 100 people can prove that they never modded their system and got banned, that would be VERY BAD PR for MS and if those people didn't take settlement (off the record), but won the case, the JUDGE may order MS to remove all prior bans. You can't ban people who did nothing wrong and obviously MS way of banning is faulty and NEEDS to be reversed. That would help all of us. Forget the money part if it, it can go to lawyers, but unbanning because of Flawed method, could be Major Headache for MS.

What about the people that buy used consoles, I am sure there are a few consoles out there that have been modded and then traded in or sold before they were banned and now someone else is going to have to deal with the loss. They have obviously been keeping track for quite sometime and you didn't have to actually use a pirated game recently to have gotten banned. So if the person that owned it before trading it into Gamestop played pirated games on it you can still be banned and you have no way of fighting it.

Are you guys serious? We all got caught violating the tos and others on here probably violating copyright laws. Its all in their rights to punish us. I'm grateful they aren't doing anything else but banning. We agreed to the tos. Am I the only one thats sees this as like a robber breaks into someone's house and the owner beats them up to protect their possession and yet somehow sometime later they are in court getting sued by the robber for injury?

QUOTE(sippin40ozs @ Nov 19 2009, 12:11 PM)

And more importantly, it's not ILLEGAL to have a modded console... Just against MS's money grubbing, BS terms of service! I have gotten more use out of my old xboxes by having them modded to use as media centers than I ever would have from my 360's, or set top dvd players, etc... But now MS just wants to screw it's biggest fan base. Not a smart move IMHO.

*sigh* you are both wrong and right, depending on where you live. If you live in the united states modifying something to circumvent drm anti copying is illegal. So modifying your drive you are essentially doing that.

Everyone is quick to point out that modders know the risks and they should quit whining. Look at it like this. Say you bought a ford and you wanted to modify the engine, whilst it might void any warranty ford arent going to say disable to radio from working because you modified the engine. Same thing with the TOS, what worked before you signed up for live "should" work after you have been banned.

QUOTE(ynwa @ Nov 19 2009, 10:04 AM)

Yeah i hope MS go bust

Then what? Switch over to the Playstation? In my opinion the Xbox 360 and Live Experience is far superior to the Playstation and Playstation Network.

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 12:34 PM)

So ummm... if his live tag wasn't online enabled, why not just unplug the network cable and not get banned? Turns out his dad, in trying to protect his investment, was actually a TARD and didn't protect the larger investment in the picture. If you don't want the ban, don't hook your 360 up to live. Plain and simple, Just don't. you got no one to blame but yourself.

What it comes down to is, microsoft owns the system, the same as you own your property. You don't like people walking in to your house, jacking your shit and bailing. Why should they let you do the same with their property?

The difference here, is all microsoft is saying is please don't do it again, rather than coming after you with their 12-gauge for stealing from them.
Personally, I'm laughing pretty hard about all this. If you're gonna mod you 360, don't play on live. If the 360 is modded, don't plug in a network cable. Ever. Can't ban you then.

What I do regret, is that all these cheap banned xboxes up for sale can't be free60'ed anymore

The internet cable may very well have been connected to use as a Media Center Extender or as a networked WMP device etc.
The problem is the system first off sends information to MS servers both without your knowledge and without your authorization and to do so it has to use your internet that you pay for so technically it has stolen or hijacked your internet.

The xbox was sold with it saying it could be used as a Media Center Extender.
The console was given a function to install games to the hard drive and play them from there to save life on the console.
The DVD not spinning will both vreate less heat over the GPU which is the most affected area by heat which causes the RROD.
They purposely disabled that function so your console will die quicker because now they don't have to warranty this console.
So the sooner this console dies the better it is for MS !

They had the right to ban consoles possibly yes even though the console is also sold as Xbox Live capable and I don't have to agree to the TOS when I buy it nor are those posted on the outside of the box.
So that is a gray area there as well.
But I can understand them keeping the console off of Xbox Live.

Everything else they did was done in a malicious way and done so for no other reason then to cause damage to the 360 console which was owned by you the consumer.

QUOTE(rupheos @ Nov 19 2009, 12:43 PM)

Are you guys serious? We all got caught violating the tos and others on here probably violating copyright laws. Its all in their rights to punish us. I'm grateful they aren't doing anything else but banning. We agreed to the tos. Am I the only one thats sees this as like a robber breaks into someone's house and the owner beats them up to protect their possession and yet somehow sometime later they are in court getting sued by the robber for injury?

This happens, in places like the UK if the police deem you used excessive force. Under UK law you are allowed to use "reasonable force", in canada same thing reasonable force

Yarrrrr!

Arrrr angry pirates!

Arrrrr

QUOTE(BoNg420 @ Nov 19 2009, 10:09 AM)

Why does that matter, you could be a legit play that got banned.

Also Im sure MS could hunt you down other ways. You login at your house, trace your connection, most people give them a real address when signing up, trust me if they wanted to hunt you down for a modded console they have all the tools they could to find you.

Yea they could hunt you down in other ways BUT being handed over a list makes it much easier. So for all the people that are so strongly against Microsoft, have you guys filled out the form to join the Class Action Law Suit? There's so much anger against Microsoft it seems but i'm wondering if you guys would honestly even go to court and speak your mind on this.

Good luck. What a waste of the court system. MS can ban you for anything non-legit...on Christmas Day if it pleases them. They are business people, AND they provide an AWESOME gaming experience. If you were banned, GOOD. Waste your dollars with a lawsuit...

QUOTE(rupheos @ Nov 19 2009, 10:43 AM)

Are you guys serious? We all got caught violating the tos and others on here probably violating copyright laws. Its all in their rights to punish us. I'm grateful they aren't doing anything else but banning. We agreed to the tos. Am I the only one thats sees this as like a robber breaks into someone's house and the owner beats them up to protect their possession and yet somehow sometime later they are in court getting sued by the robber for injury?

Agreed

Also, MS won't have to release any numbers. Those things are so closely protected, some dinky pee-on lawsuit is not going to open their books to the public. See you all online with my legit un-modded console.

QUOTE(rupheos @ Nov 19 2009, 01:43 PM)

Are you guys serious? We all got caught violating the tos and others on here probably violating copyright laws. Its all in their rights to punish us. I'm grateful they aren't doing anything else but banning. We agreed to the tos. Am I the only one thats sees this as like a robber breaks into someone's house and the owner beats them up to protect their possession and yet somehow sometime later they are in court getting sued by the robber for injury?

See I think this is where you're getting this wrong. MS isn't God...they can punish us "to the extent the law allows them to". This same thought pattern is why the excessive force thing exists in the case of a robber...yes I can protect my home and property. But that doesn't mean I get to decide that the robber should be tied up and have his skin stripped off. YOU don't get to decide punishments, the court does.

That's mainly what this is about: Have they overstepped their limits by crippling HDD's?

edited in cae of causing argument

QUOTE(cagmere @ Nov 19 2009, 07:28 PM)

I hope that Microsoft countersues everyone involved in this, because they are basically admitting guilt in playing illegal copies online (don't give me the legit backup BS, you're all pirates). It's not like your Live account was taken away, just the privileges of using the illegal modifications made to that specific console (which by the way you agreed to in the TOS). This case won't be going anywhere.

Why would you wish this? Why are some people on here haters? Why are you so busy sucking Microsoft's d**k? If you dont like what these guys are doing, then don't read the thread. If somebody has the balls to take on Microsoft then I say good luck to ya.

QUOTE(evans05 @ Nov 19 2009, 02:14 PM)

ok you lot are idiots agreeing with this, you MODDED, YOU PLAYED, YOUR FAULT, SHUT THE FECK UP, GROW UP DEAL WITH IT, go buy a ps3 if you want or get another xbox and go legit like alot of users. just shut up crying

persuasive argument bro

QUOTE(Mcegan @ Nov 19 2009, 12:58 PM)

See I think this is where you're getting this wrong. MS isn't God...they can punish us "to the extent the law allows them to". This same thought pattern is why the excessive force thing exists in the case of a robber...yes I can protect my home and property. But that doesn't mean I get to decide that the robber should be tied up and have his skin stripped off. YOU don't get to decide punishments, the court does.

That's mainly what this is about: Have they overstepped their limits by crippling HDD's?

bravo!! This is exactly what it is about. Disabling the live service is a risk you take if you "knowingly" chose to break the TOS after accepting it. Microsoft have every right to do so.

The points here are

1) Microsoft should offer a refund where apllicable territorial law dictates there should be one (in some places even tho you are banned you are entitled to a refund. (Despite what you think if the law says you are entitled to it then microsoft should honor the laws of the territory)

2) How this effects customers who buy pre owned consoles from reputable chain stores in good faith that they are unmodified. Not a microsoft liability granted but still, someone gets screwed, and when you're out of the stores pre owned console warranty period you're out of pocket.

3) The legality surrounding disabling features not covered in the live TOS, and are essentially out of the box features. They do state in the console lisence that if you modify your console they can not garuntee features will continue to work. (this is what they seemingly are hding behind with the install disabling) They can say their live system update made hard drive installs no longer compatible with modified consoles. But un modified consoles work fine. A lawyer would have to prove they were punishing the user purposley and it was not a result of a "required" update

But as far as a point of law, whilst it would appear they are activly targetting systems to disable features that essentially prolong the life of the console, and features that work independantly of live, you have to prove it

The live TOS does not explicitly state that they will activly disable features of the console upon breach of the TOS. Modifying and corrupting personal data (grey area) theyre not stopping you from using that data "on the modified console" its complex, and i'm not a consumor lawyer but i do deal with contractual disputes daily. Honestly i think the class action is unwinable unless a court forces them to disclose...what amounts to "trade secrets" highly unlikley

QUOTE(evans05 @ Nov 19 2009, 01:14 PM)

ok you lot are idiots agreeing with this, you MODDED, YOU PLAYED, YOUR FAULT, SHUT THE FECK UP, GROW UP DEAL WITH IT, go buy a ps3 if you want or get another xbox and go legit like alot of users. just shut up crying

Its FUCK as in FUCK OFF, just because you think you are clever and spell it with an E doesn't change anything other than making you look like a fucking moron. If you don't like the discussion then don't read the thread, you are obviously against this topic and have no interest in the actual discussion so why even bother joining in

QUOTE(AddNtoX @ Nov 19 2009, 01:21 PM)

3) The legality surrounding disabling features not covered in the live TOS, and are essentially out of the box features. They do state in the console lisence that if you modify your console they can not garuntee features will continue to work. (this is what they seemingly are hding behind with the install disabling) They can say their live system update made hard drive installs no longer compatible with modified consoles. But un modified consoles work fine. A lawyer would have to prove they were punishing the user purposley and it was not a result of a "required" update

But as far as a point of law, whilst it would appear they are activly targetting systems to disable features that essentially prolong the life of the console, and features that work independantly of live, you have to prove it

Its not hard to prove that it wasn't the update itself that cause the crippling since I know several people off hand that own more than one modded Xbox 360 and only had 1 banned and crippled out of two or three modded systems and are still playing on Live with all the updates on those modded consoles.

another thing i notice is theyre trying to say microsoft purposly banned 1 million at this time to inflate revenues. Tis wont hold up in court, not a chance. Microsoft can show a banning pattern, the ban wave comes at the same time pretty much every year. Every regular on this forum knows this

QUOTE(AddNtoX @ Nov 19 2009, 01:34 PM)

another thing i notice is theyre trying to say microsoft purposly banned 1 million at this time to inflate revenues. Tis wont hold up in court, not a chance. Microsoft can show a banning pattern, the ban wave comes at the same time pretty much every year. Every regular on this forum knows this

And you don't think that they picked this time of year for a reason? They ban this time of year to get more sales for the holidays so that their end of year sales figures look good.

QUOTE(Demigawd @ Nov 19 2009, 01:31 PM)

Its FUCK as in FUCK OFF, just because you think you are clever and spell it with an E doesn't change anything other than making you look like a fucking moron. If you don't like the discussion then don't read the thread, you are obviously against this topic and have no interest in the actual discussion so why even bother joining in
Its not hard to prove that it wasn't the update itself that cause the crippling since I know several people off hand that own more than one modded Xbox 360 and only had 1 banned and crippled out of two or three modded systems and are still playing on Live with all the updates on those modded consoles.

which could lead us to believe it priovides false negatives, since people have been banned after only running their console once, on the day they were banned on live. You are right, again in a sense, the point i was trying to make is the burdon of proof lies on you, and trust me their lawyers will have an answer for just about any question you can think of. You just have the prove the answer they give is bullshit.

QUOTE(Demigawd @ Nov 19 2009, 01:36 PM)

And you don't think that they picked this time of year for a reason? They ban this time of year to get more sales for the holidays so that their end of year sales figures look good.

Thats what you think, again it falls down to burden of proof. They will clearly present to the court a pattern of banning over the past few years. You have to prove it was their intention to use this time period to inflate revenues, and not because its a high traffic time for live where they can catch the lions share of pirates/modders/violaters of the TOS.

EDIT; i asked one of our corp lawyers here what he thinks, and he thinks its unlikley it'll ever see a court, and they could counter sue using DMCA. He agrees a better suit would be a non modified console banned through a false positive. The hard drive issue about installing he thinks might have some credibility, but that essentially they would say modifying the drive made it incompatible...simply hiding behind the lisence

QUOTE(AddNtoX @ Nov 19 2009, 02:21 PM)

bravo!! This is exactly what it is about. Disabling the live service is a risk you take if you "knowingly" chose to break the TOS after accepting it. Microsoft have every right to do so.

The points here are

1) Microsoft should offer a refund where apllicable territorial law dictates there should be one (in some places even tho you are banned you are entitled to a refund. (Despite what you think if the law says you are entitled to it then microsoft should honor the laws of the territory)

2) How this effects customers who buy pre owned consoles from reputable chain stores in good faith that they are unmodified. Not a microsoft liability granted but still, someone gets screwed, and when you're out of the stores pre owned console warranty period you're out of pocket.

3) The legality surrounding disabling features not covered in the live TOS, and are essentially out of the box features. They do state in the console lisence that if you modify your console they can not garuntee features will continue to work. (this is what they seemingly are hding behind with the install disabling) They can say their live system update made hard drive installs no longer compatible with modified consoles. But un modified consoles work fine. A lawyer would have to prove they were punishing the user purposley and it was not a result of a "required" update

But as far as a point of law, whilst it would appear they are activly targetting systems to disable features that essentially prolong the life of the console, and features that work independantly of live, you have to prove it

The live TOS does not explicitly state that they will activly disable features of the console upon breach of the TOS. Modifying and corrupting personal data (grey area) theyre not stopping you from using that data "on the modified console" its complex, and i'm not a consumor lawyer but i do deal with contractual disputes daily. Honestly i think the class action is unwinable unless a court forces them to disclose...what amounts to "trade secrets" highly unlikley

Proving that things are disabled when a console is banned is not hard to do at all.
Many people used the service request method to see that they were banned and have not reconnected to xbox live since because they didn't want those features disabled on them.

So simply connecting a couple of those consoles to xbox live would do the trick since the numbers of the console are already in the system flagged for banning next time it connects.

So when those features no longer work after connecting and getting banned case is proven and it has nothing to do with a update that anyone accepted.

this is plain bullshit and if they win this case, it will say more about american morality...

only thinh which could be defendable, is the disabling of the hdd. all rest is crap

QUOTE(manu_xl @ Nov 19 2009, 02:04 PM)

this is plain bullshit and if they win this case, it will say more about american morality...

only thinh which could be defendable, is the disabling of the hdd. all rest is crap

Why is the rest all crap, the people being banned should get a prorated refund for thier unused subscription. Microsoft will give you a refund if you cancel any other time, I have canceled my Live account in the past, why should you have to pay for a service that you will no longer use.

QUOTE(Demigawd @ Nov 19 2009, 02:14 PM)

Why is the rest all crap, the people being banned should get a prorated refund for thier unused subscription. Microsoft will give you a refund if you cancel any other time, I have canceled my Live account in the past, why should you have to pay for a service that you will no longer use.

You are dead on, if legally you are entitled to a refund (remember not every one would be) microsoft should offer a refund.

And to the other guy about proof of burden its never ever as simple as that. They will have something up their sleeves to argue in their defense. You forget, before they do this in corporations (i know i work in a huge one) everything regarding TOS, EULA, Lisence is vetted by a team of lawyers. Law is simply a game of trumping them, remember alot of law is open to "interpretation" and rarely is a meaning as simple as something the way you read it back.

I really like the comment about MS "Obtaining information from Xbox consoles without permission of the owner." I haven't read the entire TOS but it seems to me they gathered info they weren't entitled to.

How about MS corrupting my data (savegames) so that they won't work on another console? I can't even buy a new unmodified Xbox and expect to use the same HD without reformating. Some people are saying that using a friend's HD on a banned console can corrupt their savegames. How would a person know that the console is banned and will corrupt their data?

Banning from Xbox Live I can understand. But corrupting data and crippling your console just isn't right. If a person stole something from me, I don't have the right to tamper with their car that they used to steal from me.

The point about the timing is completely meaningless. Disabling features that are not Live-related is the main issue. Also, there's another thing I rarely see mentioned: on what basis do they ban? I'm sure a vast majority of those banned did modify their consoles and play burned games, but still:

- why is someone banned? where's the proof?
- does the Live contract allow M$ to ban without proof, without explanations and without refunds?
- are they allowed to impose such draconian rules in their contract? corporate-consumers commercial relationships are regulated, even in the US I believe, and not everything that's written in a contract is legally valid.

About the saves "corruption" and the loss of the HDD install functionality, they are direct consequence of revoking the console's certificate instead of simply disallowing it to connect to Live. Whether this effect was intentional or merely tolerated, I don't know and frankly I don't think it matters.

QUOTE(nevernow @ Nov 19 2009, 02:47 PM)

The point about the timing is completely meaningless. Disabling features that are not Live-related is the main issue. Also, there's another thing I rarely see mentioned: on what basis do they ban? I'm sure a vast majority of those banned did modify their consoles and play burned games, but still:

- why is someone banned? where's the proof?
- does the Live contract allow M$ to ban without proof, without explanations and without refunds?
- are they allowed to impose such draconian rules in their contract? corporate-consumers commercial relationships are regulated, even in the US I believe, and not everything that's written in a contract is legally valid.

Yes it pretty much says so right in their TOS that they can terminate your service at anytime with out reason or recourse, and you agreed to that TOS when you signed up.

What it does not state is that in the process of terminating you online service that they have the right to keep the fees charged for the remaining unused subscription, damage the offline functionality of the console, or corruption of any data including gamesaves for all games including any legally purchased or originally saved on an unmodded console. No one agreed to that and it should be fought in court.

QUOTE(sgr215 @ Nov 19 2009, 07:18 AM)

Just so people aren't scared off from handing over their information:

This person clearly doesn't understand the legal system. Your information will be safe and a counter-suit wouldn't even apply here. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence of a copyright violation on Xbox Live but rather evidence you've modified your console to play "backed up games". There is no evidence to show you're playing a pirated game versus a legitimate, backed up game. Luckily modifying your console isn't illegal... yet.

Nice try at scaring people off though.

modifying for "backups" and the "backups" themselves are illegal in lots of countries too: it's circumvention of copy protection.

Those who got banned simply violated the XBL terms or service or the person they got their console from modified it.
Either way, MS doesn't offer warranty on 2nd hand consoles and using unlicensed equipment also voids the warranty, it's not just opening the console that does that.

Plus the XBL EULA states Microsoft reserves the right to terminate the XBL service at any time they see fit.
Before finalizing your XBL signup you had to agree to this EULA. You basically accepted they reserved the right to terminate the service at any time they see fit.
Microsoft has you by the balls.

QUOTE(Enygma @ Nov 19 2009, 03:24 PM)

I really like the comment about MS "Obtaining information from Xbox consoles without permission of the owner." I haven't read the entire TOS but it seems to me they gathered info they weren't entitled to.

How about MS corrupting my data (savegames) so that they won't work on another console? I can't even buy a new unmodified Xbox and expect to use the same HD without reformating. Some people are saying that using a friend's HD on a banned console can corrupt their savegames. How would a person know that the console is banned and will corrupt their data?

Banning from Xbox Live I can understand. But corrupting data and crippling your console just isn't right. If a person stole something from me, I don't have the right to tamper with their car that they used to steal from me.

I agress with this 100% and this is what i dont mind fighting in court about

they messed up the banned console so u cant even tranfer your saves or stuff on to the new xbox all my saves r messed up and lost, and plus if someone goes to a friends house and has a banned system it kinda messes there data and now u are adverting falsely by saying u can take your hdd to someone house and play there save game when u know if it resave on the ban system the file is now damage and he has to start over pissing him off and other people

QUOTE(Col_Pwnage @ Nov 19 2009, 07:58 PM)

Also, MS won't have to release any numbers. Those things are so closely protected, some dinky pee-on lawsuit is not going to open their books to the public. See you all online with my legit un-modded console.

yeah just wait till its banned smart azz
my legit unmodded systems where banned what stops them from banning yours ?????

and anyother smart ass many people on this forum are as bad as microsoft if your banned you did something wrong but its clearly not tha case and they will nto fix there errors

some maybe modded and people didnt not know but I made sure mine wasnt when i bought it 2 years ago
and it hasnt been modded to this day
ask microsoft to fix there error I get you broke the TOS im like no i did not they never asked for my console id or serial or profile name nothing so how woudl they know ...they dont care if your banned to them your guilty no questions asked me and many others I have found some boxes less than 2 day old MW2 edition that was banned you get form letter responces from emails and get your screwed from phone.

they need to get there heads out there butts and admit they have flaws in there system and fix them already

Just a defense on MS' part on the added "features" of the bans;

HDD Install Disabling - It is possible to install illegitimate games to the HDD as the real thing, so while you may have not installed a copy on your xbox, there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth, so everyone gets hit for safety.

HDD Isolation - The saves created by the copies are just as illegitimate as the games themselves. While you may have not played a copy on your xbox, there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth, so everyone gets hit for safety.

But that's just my 2 cents.

Well, I'm not an attorney, but to the best of my knowledge neither is anyone else who has posted in this thread. However, I am reasonable certain about a few things...

-Courts have ruled in the past that modding hardware is not illegal. It's not the usual DMCA crap...if you buy something physically tangible it's yours to do with as you please. Were it not, then it would be illegal to paint our own houses, cut lumber we purchase to build a shed, etc.

-M$'s TOS can not, and will never, trump the law. If something in a contract is illegal then said contract becomes null and void.

-Despite their billions and billions of dollars, M$ has lost several lawsuits in the past, including ones I feel they should have won. Example: Sun systems over Java, and the EU over bundling Windows Media Player with Windows.

Now, for my take...

Yeah, my console is banned. Maybe M$ planned this thinking I would buy another 360. That might work with thousands of other drones, but it wont work on me. I'm not buying another one. I'll either wait for the 720 or whatever it is (assuming there is a next generation), or I'll just refocus on my wife's Wii.

As to the banning, I don't really care. I had zero intention of renewing my XBL subscription. All my gold membership got me is demos and trailers. I had bought it with the understanding that I would get to download cool stuff like dashboard wallpapers and game add-ons...but it wasn't that way. M$ was double-dipping. (Well, triple-dipping if you count the 360 purchase itself). When I go to Golden Corral, I pay $10 or whatever it is to get in. Then, I can eat whatever I want, as much as I want, from the buffet. If I go to a regular sit-down restaurant, I get in for free, and then I have to pay on a per-item basis for each dish I select. Both scenarios are acceptable, but not both. You can't charge someone to get into your restaurant, and then charge them again for the food they buy there. If M$ owned Golden Corral, they would charge the $10 to get in, and then they would charge M$ points for each piece of food you wanted. Not cool, and I am stunned that so many people think that's acceptable. I just can't see their reasoning...

I will say that I take exception to the blacklisting of user game saves, I take issue with the reduced functionality due to the banning (ie, no more installing games to hard drive), and I take HUGE exception to bannings or locking out or whatever a system with a third-party hard drive attached. M$ created a market for the Datel hard drive when M$ decided to charge WAY more for an HDD than it should have ever cost. If you bought an aftermarket product for your car, and the dealer did something to your car to make it stop working, or reject the aftermarket part, there would be hell to pay for the car manufacturer. In my mind, there is no difference between that scenario and the one with M$ and the Datel HDD.

Here's the flaw in the logic with M$ and those defending them...what exactly does installing games to hard drives, game saves, and Datel hard drives have to do with XBL? Correct answer: nothing. This is blatantly a vengeful and spiteful act on the part of M$.

I would like to see a lawsuit against M$, but I think it would be successful if they focused on the issues I outlined, not the ones they're currently focusing on.

QUOTE(TehBanStick @ Nov 19 2009, 10:08 PM)

Just a defense on MS' part on the added "features" of the bans;

HDD Install Disabling - It is possible to install illegitimate games to the HDD as the real thing, so while you may have not installed a copy on your xbox, there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth, so everyone gets hit for safety.

HDD Isolation - The saves created by the copies are just as illegitimate as the games themselves. While you may have not played a copy on your xbox, there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth, so everyone gets hit for safety.

But that's just my 2 cents.

" there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth " and that is the problem

QUOTE(TehBanStick @ Nov 19 2009, 03:08 PM)

Just a defense on MS' part on the added "features" of the bans;

HDD Install Disabling - It is possible to install illegitimate games to the HDD as the real thing, so while you may have not installed a copy on your xbox, there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth, so everyone gets hit for safety.

HDD Isolation - The saves created by the copies are just as illegitimate as the games themselves. While you may have not played a copy on your xbox, there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth, so everyone gets hit for safety.

But that's just my 2 cents.

You're missing the point, they aren't stopping you from playing pirated games they are just removing features that people want just to piss them off. I could understand removing harddrive installs if it actually stopped piracy but it just makes you play the game from the dvd, therefore it stops nothing and its just vindictive.

They are also corrupting gamesaves from legitimate games and possibly from before the console was modded or even from an unmodded console, again just a vindictive attack that does nothing but piss people off.

Good old metallica times..

I hope someone smash a couple of x360 on E3 or any other expo

One thing is fight piracy, other thing is acting like as*h*ol**

I wish that this stupid policy upset x360 customers

QUOTE(TehBanStick @ Nov 19 2009, 04:08 PM)

Just a defense on MS' part on the added "features" of the bans;

HDD Install Disabling - It is possible to install illegitimate games to the HDD as the real thing, so while you may have not installed a copy on your xbox, there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth, so everyone gets hit for safety.

HDD Isolation - The saves created by the copies are just as illegitimate as the games themselves. While you may have not played a copy on your xbox, there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth, so everyone gets hit for safety.

But that's just my 2 cents.

So I guess we'll just start putting people in Jail because we "think" they're guilty....

QUOTE(TehBanStick @ Nov 19 2009, 04:08 PM)

Just a defense on MS' part on the added "features" of the bans;

HDD Install Disabling - It is possible to install illegitimate games to the HDD as the real thing, so while you may have not installed a copy on your xbox, there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth, so everyone gets hit for safety.

HDD Isolation - The saves created by the copies are just as illegitimate as the games themselves. While you may have not played a copy on your xbox, there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth, so everyone gets hit for safety.

But that's just my 2 cents.

Umm if the disabling of hard drive install was to combat piracy then why wouldn't they just disable the dvd drive while they are at it.
Installing a game to the hard drive was intended to do 2 things only.
1st) increase longevity or length of life for the console by decreasing both heat and vibration right above the GPU which is the main culprit in RROD and E-74 Failures which would thus also decrease returns to MS for repair.

2nd) Decrease loading times on games.

That is it .
If MS can be so certain you are running backups then why didn't they just find a way to block the pirated disc from working with a dash or system update etc.
Clearly MS has almost complete control over that console.

i doubt this case has any legs to stand on for the simple fact that when we all click that agree button to the TOS we essentially waved any rights we have in regards to our xbox . im sure no one read the TOS when they agreed so her's a reminder ,

QUOTE

Service Operation and Equipment.

The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer, or other device authorized by us, or by logging into your account via Xbox.com . You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., through unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, or unauthorized downloads), and that we have the right to send data , applications or other content to any software or hardware that you are using to access the Service for the express purpose of detecting an unauthorized modification. Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes the Service, any game , application, or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft's systems or network security ,this contract or any additional terms incorporated or referenced in this contract, and such users may also incur criminal or civil liability.

Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; (

retrieve information from the original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, personal computer, and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this contract; and © upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service, any game or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, including software that prevents you from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral device"

but hey it cant hurt to try .... or can it ?

nice!!! im signing for this for sure.... those people at ms, banned my gamer tag for early play and then 2 weeks later they have the nerves to charge me again for the banned gamertag which i was paying like on a monthly base.... i had it for like 2 month before it got banned... so i guess i got a good case on my part and all the records are in my bank statements... ms will get it right back at them this time.... now im not winning about been banned, but what they did to me is stupid... also i dont agree with what they do to the consoles after the ban, i mean ok ban me from live but to leave my system handicap!!!! now thats low....

QUOTE(shumbora @ Nov 19 2009, 04:27 PM)

i doubt this case has any legs to stand on for the simple fact that when we all click that agree button to the TOS we essentially waved any rights we have in regards to our xbox . im sure no one read the TOS when they agreed so her's a reminder ,
but hey it cant hurt to try .... or can it ?

It's already been said TOS's are not the law and besides that, read it yourself. It says "disable any hardware or software associated with the Service". Really, my game saves are associated with the service? Pretty sure they can be made or used without LIVE's involvement.

Even if I did read the entire thing, understood every part, and accepted, I still did not agree to having my HDD messed up in any way. The only thing I accepted was possible revocation of things revolving around the xbox LIVE service

QUOTE(BanditRW @ Nov 19 2009, 04:22 PM)

So I guess we'll just start putting people in Jail because we "think" they're guilty....

You are missing the point.

Since you got banned for modded FW, there is a possibility that you used the FW to play illegally-obtained games. Since you chose to mod your console, the saves and install functionality must "go down with the ship".

You were already "put in jail" anyway because you got your console banned. The crippling is like having your PC confiscated along with a sentence for a serious computer-related crime. However, since Microsoft has no power to do so, they just prevent you from using your potentially illegal saves on other consoles or putting your potentially illegal games on your HDD.

If your gamertag wasn't virtual data I would have no doubt they would lock that to the console too.
In fact, you're all lucky they didn't ban your account on top of your Xbox. They actually went easy on your guys if you think about it.

And as response to other posts, the extra ban features are not to combat piracy, but to stop you from enjoying faster load times and such on your illegal disks. Why didn't they just stop copies from being installed? It would require extra coding to verify the disk, if it even can. So, they just pulled the plug on the whole thing instead.

As far as "there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth" goes, you understood it wrong. I meant, as somewhat-stated above, that since there is no way to track if you did in fact run a copy and created a save or installed the data to your HDD, it was in MS' best interest to assume you did, since you were already busted with modded FW.

And saying "they did it to piss everyone off" is a real shallow answer to this situation, as even if my thoughts aren't their actual reasoning, a big corporation like MS wouldn't put themselves in danger just to "piss everyone off", no matter how much you wish to think so.

QUOTE(BEVEL @ Nov 18 2009, 11:23 PM)

Lets not forget that update that makes the HDD installs possible will be spread out also on gamedisks, and is indeed a added benefit given by MS through gamedisks.
They UPgreaded the hardware and now took a hammer and smashed the HDD, they returned it to the original state.

the only reason they added the install to hdd feature was because of them (MS) not wanting to take care and warranty the roms that would scratch discs. this whole feature was just for that as you don't get a speed bump when installing to the hdd.

i am sure a lawsuit would have eventually came from the owners of consoles who did no modding and their rom was a bad unit and scratched discs to the point of not being readable, and then ms wanting $$$ for a replacement disc that their unit destroyed.

i have many friends that have bought 3-4 360s because of rrod issues, rom issues and even multiple bad "warranty" fix issues and they don't mod. this is good for me as i take their pos consoles, fix them, use them again until they die the 5th or 6th time, but is hardly fair for people having to buy consoles and also the time spent sending unit back and forth to be repaired, if in fact ms will fix their broken console for your particular failure.

maybe the fact that MS's numbers are highly skewed in their favor because of them building shit hardware is coming back to bite them in the ass. hell, maybe the EPA should get involved too because of how many 360s have been thrown away and put into landfills.

QUOTE(sgr215 @ Nov 19 2009, 12:18 AM)

Just so people aren't scared off from handing over their information:

This person clearly doesn't understand the legal system. Your information will be safe and a counter-suit wouldn't even apply here. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence of a copyright violation on Xbox Live but rather evidence you've modified your console to play "backed up games". There is no evidence to show you're playing a pirated game versus a legitimate, backed up game. Luckily modifying your console isn't illegal... yet.

Nice try at scaring people off though.

Good points made, also.. what about those that got banned that didn't even mod. I know users like this. They can submit their info 100% worry free.

rofl, what a bunch of clowns. You can't be serious. One of the complaints is the timing of the ban? At least this joker of a company should list some valid complaints, such as the HDD crippling. good luck.

QUOTE(TehBanStick @ Nov 19 2009, 03:57 PM)

And as response to other posts, the extra ban features are not to combat piracy, but to stop you from enjoying faster load times and such on your illegal disks. Why didn't they just stop copies from being installed? It would require extra coding to verify the disk, if it even can. So, they just pulled the plug on the whole thing instead.

As far as "there is no way to tell either way if you are telling the truth" goes, you understood it wrong. I meant, as somewhat-stated above, that since there is no way to track if you did in fact run a copy and created a save or installed the data to your HDD, it was in MS' best interest to assume you did, since you were already busted with modded FW.

The whole point of the banning in their own words is to combat piracy and protect the people on Xbox Live, although I will never understand how me playing a pirated disc affects anyone else on Xbox Live, anyway they could easily stop the piracy entirely on these banned consoles all they have to do it alter what ever portion of code that contains the drive key for the dvd-rom esentially disabling the drive from unlocking any xbox discs.

You have already stated that you were punished for modding the drive they have no need to check to see if the disc is valid they can just disable any and all xbox dvd's. They have already taken away functionality regardless of whether it involves a legitimate or pirated disc so why should this be any different. Why because they don't want to, they are doing just enough to be vinidictive, you can say that doing it to piss people off is a shallow answer but if they were serious about stopping piracy they could do it and quite easily.

Now this makes more sense since they have added the updated part. The updated part of the article includes hdd crippling which really has nothing to do with LIVE.

QUOTE(Demigawd @ Nov 19 2009, 05:10 PM)

The whole point of the banning in their own words is to combat piracy and protect the people on Xbox Live, although I will never understand how me playing a pirated disc affects anyone else on Xbox Live, anyway they could easily stop the piracy entirely on these banned consoles all they have to do it alter what ever portion of code that contains the drive key for the dvd-rom esentially disabling the drive from unlocking any xbox discs.

You have already stated that you were punished for modding the drive they have no need to check to see if the disc is valid they can just disable any and all xbox dvd's. They have already taken away functionality regardless of whether it involves a legitimate or pirated disc so why should this be any different. Why because they don't want to, they are doing just enough to be vinidictive, you can say that doing it to piss people off is a shallow answer but if they were serious about stopping piracy they could do it and quite easily.

However completely disabling the disk drive renders the Xbox virtually useless.
Since it isn't illegal to mod your console, MS can only do what they have already done, besides account banning.
Playing games is a sole function of the Xbox 360, while inter-console saves and HDD installs are merely an added feature. Which is why they chose to take them away.

MS will never be able to stop piracy, but they can make an attempt to stop you from doing it by crippling features of your Xbox.

QUOTE(TehBanStick @ Nov 19 2009, 04:22 PM)

However completely disabling the disk drive renders the Xbox virtually useless.
Since it isn't illegal to mod your console, MS can only do what they have already done, besides account banning.
Playing games is a sole function of the Xbox 360, while inter-console saves and HDD installs are merely an added feature. Which is why they chose to take them away.

It would still be useful as a mediaplayer, and yes it is illegal to mod your xbox in most countries. It is illegal to mod it in the USA under the DMCA which states that circumventing copy protection is illegal. Seems no one wants to actually prosecute end users for doing it but that doesn't change the fact that it is illegal. The only grey area about that is modifying a device to provide aditional functionality. This was a vaild argument on the orginal Xbox where modding provided aditional functionality by means of homebrew software. There is no homebrew software on the Xbox 360 modding provides only one function the ability to circumvent copy protection on the games, which is illegal under the DMCA.

Therefore disabling all Xbox 360 games would be with in their right as a method of combatting piracy as you have broken the law by circumventing their copy protection. If they allow them to disable features like the media extender, hardrive installs and corrupting data then they are leaving the door open to something like fully disabling the console.

No one really cared about being banned from Xbox Live, that is proven by the fact that there are so many modded consoles, the crippling while quite agrevating is also not going to sway people from piracy, but if they wanted to crackdown and start fully disabling consoles that are modded people would probably think twice before doing it and that would stop piracy.

QUOTE(sippin40ozs @ Nov 19 2009, 11:54 AM)

Hey genius, I BUY the online games I like to play, and PAY for Live service for 2 OTHER people in the household... so am I not allowed to play legit games that I buy and pay for either? How is that fair to me when I'm paying for the console, the game, the service, I SHOULD GET IT!
Still trying to figure out where I stole from them? It always comes back to you idiots preaching without knowing a damn thing about what you're talking about!!

I'm pretty sure I was helping their bottom line by buying all this crap... which I won't anymore obviously, and it looks like there are plenty of people that feel the same way!

So, again, why do you TARDS feel the need to chime in on this lawsuit when it doesn't effect you?

Maybe a good example for you simple minded guys that can't grasp why people are pissed is this:
If you had sat. tv and in the TOS for that it said you MUST keep your phone line plugged in at all times so the box can upload your purchasing data. Well, you have no phone line plugged in because well, you don't have a phone line by your TV and you never order pay per view... Would it be okay if they cut off your subscription for service to your Digital receiver even though you already payed and offered you no refund... Then, they came in your house and smashed that receiver since it wasn't plugged in to the phone line... I mean your Sat. dish is still there and it technically is still pulling a signal and works so all you need to do is buy a new receiver and you can watch again right!!! Yeah, that's fair!! Oh wait, that's right your banned xbox is still perfectly fine right they just disabled certain things, things YOU PAY FOR, like corrupting your data on your HD, or not to mention the people that modded fans to keep their CRAP made consoles from overheating? So I guess if they just made it so you could only watch one channel on that receiver that's cool then right? It works, it's just it can't do all the features you paid for... So that's cool right?

It amazes me you guys continue to argue as to why this is UNIVERSALLY right. If someone was caught playing a PIRATED game, ban the console, hell like someone said, disable the dvd drive and put that in the TOS that it will happen. NO, they don't do that, cuz they can't try to sell a TON of Live memberships and turn them into even more new consoles that way. THEY GOT GREEDY and they are gonna suffer in the long wrong. Just look at the backlash brewing already.

Didn't want to get too far in to this BUT...

Should have just bought a second 360 for your kids to use. You won't trust them with plastic discs, why do you trust them with the expensive console?

And about the satellite PPV concern. I currently am in EXACTLY this situation. 100% exactly the same, and here's what Bell does. You order a PPV and it has to confirm through the phone line that you are authorized to make this purchase. Because i don't have phone-line set up at my house, i order the PPV online, and Bell uses a certain transponder on their satellite (i'm not 100% sure of the frequency off hand) to beam, on a wide scale, the subscription information. Also, I'm sure that seeing as how they just implemented Nagra 3 encryption on their network, that any smart cards currently viewing the subscription would be updated with the subscription info (IE: Mine.). Once the purchase has been made, the purchase is stored on the smart card, if you PVR the event, you can legally watch it as many times as you'd like. Also, if internet ordering is not available for you, you can order over the phone (1-800-SKY-DISH). I know that this same authentication/verification procedure is used by D!sh Network in the states, and also StarChoice in Canada (although the encryption method is different). The purchases are, at the moment of transaction, added to your running tab (ie: monthly bill). The keys needed to unscramble the Nagra 3 encryption for that frequency (ie: transponder) are broadcast in the same packets with the purchase authentication from the satellite. In a hacked "fta" (although that's somewhat of an oxy-moron for the hobby, as actual fta uses unencrypted satellites) the keys for PPV and subscription channels are automatically "rolled" by the emulators in the FTA Binary Programming, and in the patches (both the programming and the patches are deemed illegal under the DMCA). Unless you've got either a legit subscription to the channel, or using an emulator (or of course satellite/internet key sharing, which i won't get in to on this post...) you wont stand a snowball's chance in hell viewing the PPV.

Nowhere in the Satellite Television Provider's TOS does it say you MUST have a phone line connected to your receiver. I sure don't, and Bell knows this as a fact during the installation.

All that being said, Bell can by all means block your Smart Card (plastic's) ID number, at which point the satellites beam the invalid card down, and the receiver stops receiving programming. This can happen at any moment, just like subscribing to your channels. 100% it is LEGAL for Bell to do this. And let me re-iterate, all purchases are stored on the smart card. In the event your card/receiver is cancelled, you'll still be able to view the PPV purchases stored on your PVR.

As for corrupting the data on your hard drive. You know full well when you signed up for xbox live (or you would if you read the disclaimer) that microsoft owns the software on your xbox. This is why it's illegal under the DMCA to reverse engineer the bios as well as the software (ie: dashboards).

When you're buying a 360, you're buying the rights to USE their software. You do NOT own the rights to the software, that's still microsoft's property. If you're going to steal from Microsoft, then expect them to tighten their security. I can 100% not blame Microsoft for their bannings of your console, nor the cripplings of their software. In the end the hardware itself is fully functional. Don't believe me? Pull out the hard drive, put it in your computer and format it.

As for running back-ups, even 100% legal backups, as you call them. Where in the TOS of XBOX Live does it say that you are allowed to make a backup of their software? Where in the DMCA does it say that you can legally make a back up of the software? Where in your Optical Burner's EULA does it say that you are legally allowed to make a back up of the software?

If you think else wise, then perform a NAND modification, run a hacked bios, and a replacement dashboard. All of that is 100% legitimate, and Microsoft sure as hell won't be banning your console either.

QUOTE(Demigawd @ Nov 19 2009, 05:31 PM)

If they allow them to disable features like the media extender, hardrive installs and corrupting data then they are leaving the door open to something like fully disabling the console.

You are right, but it is highly unlikely because the Xbox 360 above all is a game console, and as such, taking the functionality of playing games would make no sense whatsoever.

QUOTE(The Dude Z @ Nov 19 2009, 12:48 PM)

The internet cable may very well have been connected to use as a Media Center Extender or as a networked WMP device etc.
The problem is the system first off sends information to MS servers both without your knowledge and without your authorization and to do so it has to use your internet that you pay for so technically it has stolen or hijacked your internet.

The xbox was sold with it saying it could be used as a Media Center Extender.
The console was given a function to install games to the hard drive and play them from there to save life on the console.
The DVD not spinning will both vreate less heat over the GPU which is the most affected area by heat which causes the RROD.
They purposely disabled that function so your console will die quicker because now they don't have to warranty this console.
So the sooner this console dies the better it is for MS !

They had the right to ban consoles possibly yes even though the console is also sold as Xbox Live capable and I don't have to agree to the TOS when I buy it nor are those posted on the outside of the box.
So that is a gray area there as well.
But I can understand them keeping the console off of Xbox Live.

Everything else they did was done in a malicious way and done so for no other reason then to cause damage to the 360 console which was owned by you the consumer.

Where does "Capable" imply "Does"? I am fully capable of stripping off all my clothes and runnign around the mall screaming. That doesn't mean that I do it. It's Capable of Live, yes, that doesn't mean that it will always connect to xbox live. You took apart your xbox 360, therefore you voided the warranty. That was clearly a decision the YOU made. By voiding that warranty you are at the same time legally acknowledging that there is a contract to break.

As for the DVD not cooling the GPU, i'm not sure where you're finding this information. I could only assume you're thinking and saying two different things. I don't see how the DVD drive could either produce excessive heat or reduce heat by increasing the airflow. My understanding of physics is that heat dissipates, therefore unless the DVD drive is hotter than the GPU, or reducing airflow (given the 360's design we know this is not the case) that the DVD issue is non-related.

Microsoft is not banning users for watching pirated movies here, they are banning users for playing modded games. If you've got your 360 connected to the internet because you're using it as a WMP Extender, than so be it. There's no harm in that. If Microsoft is banning your xbox because you're playing a back up (legitimate backups are also against the TOS of Xbox live and the DMCA, so that somewhat throws that out the window) and it happens to also disable other features in their software (ie: hdd installs and WMP extender) then all they are doing is restricting your use of their software. I don't see any legality issues there. If someone broke in to your house and stole from you, you should be changing your security methods. There's nothing different going on here than what has happened everywhere else in the world.

*Please note, the "You" my post pertains to may not be you the person, but rather you the fictitious title. Please do not take my post personally, and please do not take offense.*

QUOTE(Demigawd @ Nov 19 2009, 04:31 PM)

yes it is illegal to mod your xbox in most countries. It is illegal to mod it in the USA under the DMCA which states that circumventing copy protection is illegal.

No, its not illegal to mod the 360 in the US. Cite a source, ANY legitimate source that says its illegal to mod the 360. Modchips that use proprietary code are illegal, but most people aren't installing modchips in their 360's. I can legally mod my 360 (by updating the firmware, I'm not talking about painting it, etc.) and no one is going to say "boo" to me.

QUOTE(justtaint @ Nov 19 2009, 04:58 PM)

No, its not illegal to mod the 360 in the US. Cite a source, ANY legitimate source that says its illegal to mod the 360. Modchips that use proprietary code are illegal, but most people aren't installing modchips in their 360's. I can legally mod my 360 (by updating the firmware, I'm not talking about painting it, etc.) and no one is going to say "boo" to me.

Is the firmware legitimate, and authorized by the DMCA? Likely not. The firmware is a reverse engineered copy of the dump created by the owners and manufacturers of the drive.

Unless you've legally purchased the source for the firmware and redistribution rights, you cannot legally modify it, as stated in the DMCA. That'd be why all over the front page you'll see that there are no firmwares hosted on Xbox-scene.

So no, it's not illegal to modify the 360. Yes, it is illegal to have a copy of a modified firmware as protected by the DMCA, and a few other copyright acts as well. No different than an original Xbox bios, previous to the DMCA. Copyright acts (unfortunately i can not quote them off the top of my head) do state that modifying and reverse engineering software that you do not legally own the source to is... ILLEGAL. There are legal alternatives, such as a scratch built BIOS (See X3 flash the comes shipped).

The whole time I'm reading these posts and thinking about the Criminal Justice System, this will take months upon months to go over, unless the guys aren't prepared. If they are not prepared, they'll get shot down instantly. Hopefully they know what they are doing. But really though, when Gates went to court over the monopoly of Internet Explorer and Windows based operating systems, that took a good amount of time to come up with a settlement.

So in all honestly, if the lawyers win, I wouldn't expect any fix to come from M$ until then, IF they even have something to give those that were banned. We're better off trying to find a fix ourselves (besides the Pre-Ban Nand Backups).

@ phrozenfeonix,

There have been a few reported cases that those who only tried to fix a RRoD'ed XBox were also banned in the recent ban wave, my friend being one of them. What about those people?

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 04:39 PM)

As for running back-ups, even 100% legal backups, as you call them. Where in the TOS of XBOX Live does it say that you are allowed to make a backup of their software?

Obviously it doesn't, but that doesn't make it illegal.

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 04:39 PM)

Where in the DMCA does it say that you can legally make a back up of the software?

The DMCA doesn't say you can, but the doctrine of Fair Use, which has been proven in the courts says that you are allowed to make backups for personal use. You can argue all you want against it, but until this is proven to be illegal in a court of law, making backups is perfectly 100% legal. That's not to say that hardware manufacturers can't try and stop you from using said backup.

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 04:39 PM)

Where in your Optical Burner's EULA does it say that you are legally allowed to make a back up of the software?

I didn't sign a EULA for my optical burner, and I didn't sign one when I installed my burning software, so I don't know where this question came from.

From the EFF http://w2.eff.org/IP/eff_fair_use_faq.php
Although the legal basis is not completely settled, many lawyers believe that the following (and many other uses) are also fair uses:
Making a personal back-up copy of content you own - for instance, burning a copy of an audio CD you own.

Remember, its legal until its illegal. Not the other way around.

Are you really so blind as to miss "Unauthorized copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited." On EVERY game manual, as well as some of the discs themselves, and ALSO on the boot of some games? Where's your authorization?

Flip open some game manuals. Unfortunately ignorance is not a valid argument in courts.
"I'm sorry your honor, but how was I to know that driving while under the influence of alcohol is prohibited by law? It doesn't specifically state that on my steering wheel, or my operator's license." See how far that will get you in court.

QUOTE(rastaman108037 @ Nov 19 2009, 04:06 AM)

Epic fail, if you had any idea what you were talking about, you'd realize that modders have no way of editing game data. Microsoft would like you to believe we are "haxors" so that you can feel better about sucking so hard at Halo 3. No, you just suck.

Honestly I dont care what your doing. Bottom line is that you hack to play illegal copies that the rest of us are paying top cash for. If you had half a brain you would not put the hacked console on live. You do that your just a tard and you got what you were asking for. If you want to hack your 360 and want to play live? Then buy two consoles. Have one thats hacked and one thats not. Thats the smart thing to do. Do I know about hacking? Son I have been modding consoles probably since before you were born. I know better to do what you and the rest of the banned tards did.

Look at it like this. Once they can copy games the next step is making ingame cheats. It's gonna happen eventually. The door is open for the next brainiack to come along and do it. Maybe no one has done it yet, but it will happen.

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 05:55 PM)

Where does "Capable" imply "Does"? I am fully capable of stripping off all my clothes and runnign around the mall screaming. That doesn't mean that I do it. It's Capable of Live, yes, that doesn't mean that it will always connect to xbox live. You took apart your xbox 360, therefore you voided the warranty. That was clearly a decision the YOU made. By voiding that warranty you are at the same time legally acknowledging that there is a contract to break.

As for the DVD not cooling the GPU, i'm not sure where you're finding this information. I could only assume you're thinking and saying two different things. I don't see how the DVD drive could either produce excessive heat or reduce heat by increasing the airflow. My understanding of physics is that heat dissipates, therefore unless the DVD drive is hotter than the GPU, or reducing airflow (given the 360's design we know this is not the case) that the DVD issue is non-related.

Microsoft is not banning users for watching pirated movies here, they are banning users for playing modded games. If you've got your 360 connected to the internet because you're using it as a WMP Extender, than so be it. There's no harm in that. If Microsoft is banning your xbox because you're playing a back up (legitimate backups are also against the TOS of Xbox live and the DMCA, so that somewhat throws that out the window) and it happens to also disable other features in their software (ie: hdd installs and WMP extender) then all they are doing is restricting your use of their software. I don't see any legality issues there. If someone broke in to your house and stole from you, you should be changing your security methods. There's nothing different going on here than what has happened everywhere else in the world.

*Please note, the "You" my post pertains to may not be you the person, but rather you the fictitious title. Please do not take my post personally, and please do not take offense.*

The bigger issue than heat is the constant vibration from the disc drive setting flush against a GPU heatsink.
Vibration and heat are not a good combination to avoid broken solder joints !

This is there Killer here "Hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., through unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, or unauthorized downloads)

Well i called the one time to see how much they would repair my out of warranty console it was almost the cost of a new console, so lets do the math buy a drive and replace it or cough up 200+ for a console.

I don't see that being much difference. Ps3s use the same system. I'm on my third PS3 due to the YOD, and yet I'm still on my original launch 360. I don't get extensive use out of either, as my time is full enough with life itself.

That being said, when I do game, i'll set aside a weekend for it, and my console will end up running nearly around the clock. (I don't shut it off if I'm going to the store or taking a break with the girlfriend. I'll leave my consoles on for days on end, and I've yet to have any problems. I think that justifying the HDD install is just another cop-out.

QUOTE(Jbasto @ Nov 19 2009, 05:28 PM)

This is there Killer here "Hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., through unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, or unauthorized downloads)

Well i called the one time to see how much they would repair my out of warranty console it was almost the cost of a new console, so lets do the math buy a drive and replace it or cough up 200+ for a console.

I can agree, while it does seem cheaper, you're still modifying drive code that you don't have legal rights to. This wouldn't be a problem on say, an original xbox, where you could swap optical drives (not so much the hard drives) between xboxes, but unfortunately, to help keep things secure for microsoft, they did bulk up their security with tying optical drives to motherboards.

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 05:19 PM)

Are you really so blind as to miss "Unauthorized copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited." On EVERY game manual, as well as some of the discs themselves, and ALSO on the boot of some games? Where's your authorization?
Flip open some game manuals. Unfortunately ignorance is not a valid argument in courts.
"I'm sorry your honor, but how was I to know that driving while under the influence of alcohol is prohibited by law? It doesn't specifically state that on my steering wheel, or my operator's license." See how far that will get you in court.

Strictly prohibited does not mean illegal.

"Any reproduction, retransmission, or rebroadcast without the expressed written consent of Major League Baseball is strictly prohibited." Says that after every MLB broadcast, but I'm allowed (because of FAIR USE) to take small video clips and use them, am I not?

Just because a large corporation with enough money to bury me in litigation until I can no longer see the sun tells me that something is strictly prohibited does not mean that its illegal. It means they've convinced you not to do it. MS is the one doing the prohibiting, not the law. And I'm talking about backups of your own software, not something downloaded from wherever.

I hate using analogies, but I'll use my second one....
The TSA asks for your ID when you go through security. If you say no, they make it virtually impossible to board a plane. They'll threaten to call the police, kick you from the airport, bodily searches, etc....but they have no legal right to deny you passage.

http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/enhance_id_requirements.shtm

Just because someone says its prohibited does not mean its illegal to do.
I'm not pleading ignorance.

QUOTE(justtaint @ Nov 19 2009, 05:34 PM)

Strictly prohibited does not mean illegal.

"Any reproduction, retransmission, or rebroadcast without the expressed written consent of Major League Baseball is strictly prohibited." Says that after every MLB broadcast, but I'm allowed (because of FAIR USE) to take small video clips and use them, am I not?

Just because a large corporation with enough money to bury me in litigation until I can no longer see the sun tells me that something is strictly prohibited does not mean that its illegal. It means they've convinced you not to do it. MS is the one doing the prohibiting, not the law. And I'm talking about backups of your own software, not something downloaded from wherever.

I hate using analogies, but I'll use my second one....
The TSA asks for your ID when you go through security. If you say no, they make it virtually impossible to board a plane. They'll threaten to call the police, kick you from the airport, bodily searches, etc....but they have no legal right to deny you passage.

http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/enhance_id_requirements.shtm

Just because someone says its prohibited does not mean its illegal to do.
I'm not pleading ignorance.

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+prohibited And keep in mind we're talking Legal definitions here.

Add Strictly in front of that.

This is going to be something alot of people will keep there eyes open.

But i think what people are most mad about is that they corrupted there game saves and profiles im one of them lol !

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 05:39 PM)

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+prohibited And keep in mind we're talking Legal definitions here.

Add Strictly in front of that.

I don't see any of the game manuals saying that its prohibited by law?!
Microsoft says that doing X is prohibited, and the laws of the country say that its not....and you're not going to do it because MS says its "strictly prohibited"???

I'm not saying that this lawsuit is going to win. I don't think it will. I'm arguing against all the people who say that you can't do something strictly because some huge corporation doesn't want you to. Fair Use is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_(law) that has been established by case law and is at odds with the DMCA. Unfortunately MS has enough lobbyists to convince the lawmakers that we (the citizens of this country) should be robbed of Fair Use simply because they can afford to buy the law.

I'm not arguing that circumventing copy protection isn't illegal under the DMCA. I do believe that modifying the game console to play backups (which is legal under Fair Use) is an exemption to the DMCA. And frankly this won't be an issue on the day that MS stops making Xbox 360:

Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace. (A renewed exemption, first approved in 2003.)

I think what's really interesting about this law suit is the fact that Microsoft may have to release information on how they detect a modded console. So the truth will finally come out on what information Microsoft uses and what information is downloaded and/or uploaded to your console.

i haven't read the whole thread, and i'm not going to.

i'd just like to say that this is possibly the most ridiculous thing i have ever read. i know people in america have been known to sue for the most ridiculous things ever, but this just takes the absolute biscuit (and i'm not being racist in anyway at all before anyone tries to suggest this).

at the end of the day, if you've been banned for having a modified console - how can you possibly sue microsoft for banning your console, corrupting your hard drive and whatever else they're talking about. you screwed them by playing copies. whether you have actually backed up your own games, or are just saying this to make it look like you're innocent, you cannot possibly sue a company when you have blatently broke their TOS.

i can see it now - when natal comes out they'll be faced with class action lawsuits because people do roley poley's while playing modern warfare 3 and break their television sets

the world's gone mad

QUOTE(markovts @ Nov 19 2009, 05:56 PM)

i haven't read the whole thread, and i'm not going to.

i'd just like to say that this is possibly the most ridiculous thing i have ever read. i know people in america have been known to sue for the most ridiculous things ever, but this just takes the absolute biscuit (and i'm not being racist in anyway at all before anyone tries to suggest this).

at the end of the day, if you've been banned for having a modified console - how can you possibly sue microsoft for banning your console, corrupting your hard drive and whatever else they're talking about. you screwed them by playing copies. whether you have actually backed up your own games, or are just saying this to make it look like you're innocent, you cannot possibly sue a company when you have blatently broke their TOS.

i can see it now - when natal comes out they'll be faced with class action lawsuits because people do roley poley's while playing modern warfare 3 and break their television sets

the world's gone mad

First, it wouldn't be racism. American is not a race, its a nationality. It would be prejudice.
Second, they aren't suing because they've been banned, they're suing because they believe they are owed a refund on services not rendered. Its not completely far fetched to see them win, but the verdict would have zero outcome on modding/bans/backups/pirating, etc.

QUOTE(Demigawd @ Nov 19 2009, 09:14 PM)

Why is the rest all crap, the people being banned should get a prorated refund for thier unused subscription. Microsoft will give you a refund if you cancel any other time, I have canceled my Live account in the past, why should you have to pay for a service that you will no longer use.

??? go online and cancel and get a refund...
your live account is still fully functional..nothing stopping you from using it on another console so M$ has nothing to refund for...

and whats with all this "Crippling the HD" crap.. the HD still works perfectly fine.. you just can't install games to it (Pirated or real) it is a security measure deployed on a console that is deemed fraudulent.

It's also extremely laughable all the whining..lol
Just like Satellite providers who often send out ECM's to disable or loop smartcards.. M$ has every right to send out code to disable completely a 360 is they so choose

QUOTE(markovts @ Nov 19 2009, 05:56 PM)

i haven't read the whole thread, and i'm not going to.

i'd just like to say that this is possibly the most ridiculous thing i have ever read. i know people in america have been known to sue for the most ridiculous things ever, but this just takes the absolute biscuit (and i'm not being racist in anyway at all before anyone tries to suggest this).

at the end of the day, if you've been banned for having a modified console - how can you possibly sue microsoft for banning your console, corrupting your hard drive and whatever else they're talking about. you screwed them by playing copies. whether you have actually backed up your own games, or are just saying this to make it look like you're innocent, you cannot possibly sue a company when you have blatently broke their TOS.

i can see it now - when natal comes out they'll be faced with class action lawsuits because people do roley poley's while playing modern warfare 3 and break their television sets

the world's gone mad

QFT, i was thinking the exact same thing. It does seem like a frivelous lawsuit. ITT Butt-hurt Pirates, but at the same time, the pirates are butt-hurt, and will take offense to me saying so. Catch 22 I suppose.

Long story short, if you're gonna play ball, remember microsoft plays hardball. In the Major Leagues.

Better than "not giving them a cent" would be to give their competition your money. I sure as hell don't see people playing backups on ps3, and no one complains there. Also, blurays have a thicker and more durable layering of substrate to protect the data layers. Less likely for those discs to get scratched. Perhaps you butt-hurt pirates should support $ony instead? Plus their online is free, so even the most butt-hurt of pirates can not only not worry about being banned from a service they apparently don't use, they can even have it for free! Guess what else? You can stream DivX and Xvid to your ps3 for free as well!

That being said, please don't get all butt-hurt and whiney on me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Then again, if you're not pirating, then this post shouldn't mean anything to you, am I right?

QUOTE(makavelif50 @ Nov 19 2009, 01:06 AM)

I do not agree with this crap at all. It's simple if you mod your 360 it will get banned plain and simple. I agree with what Microsoft has done. Everyone by now should know the risks of modding your xbox, and if you understand the risks then you should wine, cry, or whatever when Microsoft bans your console. If you really must mod an xbox keep it offline and buy one just for online play. I mean if you mod it your going to end up buying another one anyways.

i completely agree. you mod your system, you know that you MIGHT get banned.

But i also agree that M$ timming was well thought out. they waited to ban people untill AFTER halo 3, and also after CODMW2. but hey, its pretty smart, and i personally would do the same thing. if ya tried to screw me over by modding the system. and pirating games.

and for those who got banned for no reason at all, ( no modded consoul) m$ needs to get there head on straight. atleast ASK the person to send in the system to see if its been internally tampered with.

common people its common sense with 99% of all electronic devices. In General "WARRANTY VOID if opened."

QUOTE(justtaint @ Nov 20 2009, 12:34 AM)

Strictly prohibited does not mean illegal.

"Any reproduction, retransmission, or rebroadcast without the expressed written consent of Major League Baseball is strictly prohibited." Says that after every MLB broadcast, but I'm allowed (because of FAIR USE) to take small video clips and use them, am I not?

Just because a large corporation with enough money to bury me in litigation until I can no longer see the sun tells me that something is strictly prohibited does not mean that its illegal. It means they've convinced you not to do it. MS is the one doing the prohibiting, not the law. And I'm talking about backups of your own software, not something downloaded from wherever.

I hate using analogies, but I'll use my second one....
The TSA asks for your ID when you go through security. If you say no, they make it virtually impossible to board a plane. They'll threaten to call the police, kick you from the airport, bodily searches, etc....but they have no legal right to deny you passage.

TSA announcement

Just because someone says its prohibited does not mean its illegal to do.
I'm not pleading ignorance.

actually it IS illegal and MLB could sue you if they so choose to. Are they going to?? probably not cause you are small fry. But that alone doesn't make it Legal for you to do it...

QUOTE(Puffer @ Nov 19 2009, 12:10 AM)

The HDD crippling is crappy on their part, yes, but again, it is their hardware to do with as they please.

No, it's not. Not anymore than your car is GM's to do with as they please, or your TV is Sony's to do with as they please, or your PC is Dell's to do with as they please.

QUOTE(justtaint @ Nov 19 2009, 04:58 PM)

No, its not illegal to mod the 360 in the US. Cite a source, ANY legitimate source that says its illegal to mod the 360. Modchips that use proprietary code are illegal, but most people aren't installing modchips in their 360's. I can legally mod my 360 (by updating the firmware, I'm not talking about painting it, etc.) and no one is going to say "boo" to me.

The DMCA states that it is illegal to circumvent digital copy protections, the only purpose the modified firmware on the Xbox360 dvd-rom serves is to circumvent the digital copy protection. Argue fair use all you want but making a backup is not the same as circumventing the copy protection in the console. Fair use is an out dated concept, the purpose behind it was to make a back up of sources that would degrade over time, a digital source if taken care of should out last the life of the console or player it was designed for.

The only legitimate argument for fair use in regards to digital media is to provide the ability to use it on an device it wasn't originally designed for, such as ripping a CD to use on an MP3 player or a DVD to use on a portable video player. Or to provide an additional function to an existing device beyond what is was designed for such as Xbox Media Center on the original Xbox. When the modification's sole purpose is to defeat a copy protection scheme with out providing any additional feature or function you can left the grey area of fair use.

QUOTE(Puffer @ Nov 19 2009, 06:17 AM)

Lets not forget that the HDD installs are NOT part of the original functionality of the hardware, but an added benefit given by MS through a system update. So, technically, no they didn't limit the hardware, they returned it to its original state.

yes you are quite right, but if that is the case they also should have returned us to the old dashboard. They didn't just returned us to the "original state", they blocked a function we all had got used to and cleary has nothing to do with xbox live, which is a paid service and means a lot of money to M$. I don't know you guys but a still have the botton "install to HDD".... so in my opinion that is not even a bit fair...

They just did this so that we would find ourselves in need of buying a new console...

I'd save my breath on this one.

You guys are never gonna convince these guys that this lawsuit is going to amount to nothing. They need to blame someone else right? why not let them get their hopes up, just to get crushed again by REALITY.

This post has been edited by chorizo1: Nov 20 2009, 01:26 AM

Also:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/legal/LiveTOU.htm
Interesting points are Numbers 6 and 16, as far as live bannings go.

16. Service Operation and Equipment.

The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer, or other device authorized by us, or by logging into your account via Xbox.com . You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., through unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, or unauthorized downloads), and that we have the right to send data , applications or other content to any software or hardware that you are using to access the Service for the express purpose of detecting an unauthorized modification. Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes the Service, any game , application, or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft's systems or network security ,this contract or any additional terms incorporated or referenced in this contract, and such users may also incur criminal or civil liability.

Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) retrieve information from the original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, personal computer, and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this contract; and © upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service, any game or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, including software that prevents you from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices.

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 19 2009, 06:16 PM)

actually it IS illegal and MLB could sue you if they so choose to. Are they going to?? probably not cause you are small fry. But that alone doesn't make it Legal for you to do it...

Sorry, but you're wrong.

FTC complaint flags NFL, MLB, studios for overstating copyright claims

MLB Refuses To Give Permission To Guy To Describe Game To A Friend - not an example, just what could happen if taken too far.

MLB has enough money to have staffers send DMCA takedown notices to Youtube regarding suspect content, and no individual has enough money to take them on. That doesn't make it illegal.

QUOTE(tbb033 @ Nov 19 2009, 06:18 PM)

No, it's not. Not anymore than your car is GM's to do with as they please, or your TV is Sony's to do with as they please, or your PC is Dell's to do with as they please.

You own the hardware but they own the software, you only have a license to use the software and they can revoke that license at anytime if you violate the EULA. You are free to wipe out their software entirely and replace it with your own, just as you can on that Dell PC you mention, at which time you would own the entire console.

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 20 2009, 12:11 AM)

??? go online and cancel and get a refund...
your live account is still fully functional..nothing stopping you from using it on another console so M$ has nothing to refund for...
and whats with all this "Crippling the HD" crap.. the HD still works perfectly fine.. you just can't install games to it (Pirated or real) it is a security measure deployed on a console that is deemed fraudulent.

It's also extremely laughable all the whining..lol
Just like Satellite providers who often send out ECM's to disable or loop smartcards.. M$ has every right to send out code to disable completely a 360 is they so choose

I'm sorry, but what i find "extremely laughable" is your post.

I'm sorry, but disabling the use of a smart card software is totally different. That would be equal to Microsoft disabling there xbox live account not the system its self and would need a new card (live account) to get service again. The Satellite companies don't corrupt there receivers, just the information on the card that shouldn't be there. This would be the same as Microsoft sending down its stock firmware to over right your hacked one so you cant play copied games anymore. They have no right to remove any features that come with the system that you paid for. They can attack people who pirate any way they wish, but they have to do it within the rights of the law. The have no right to corrupt game saves, and your live profile, so you cant put it on another xbox without loosing everything. This was retaliation and is illegal in some countries. If the satellite companies corrupted the receivers of users who illegally obtained channels then they would be sued for destroying someone eases property.

If this lawsuit wins, it'll only do 1 of 2 things. Refund everyone's live accounts, or unbann every system within the USA only, or both. Microsoft would not unban anyone else, but if this happens im sure other countries would attack Microsoft within there own laws as well.

Honestly, I wish Ebgames/gamestop jumped into this lawsuit. They are the ones getting banned systems and loosing alot of money on them. It's not like Microsoft was kind enough to send them a notice a week before hand to be carefully about receiving banned xbox360's. They should have send the company a letter, with a step by step procedure to test every system. You know why Microsoft never did that, They hate companies like gamestop. They don't want anyone to buy used games/system's because they don't get any money from it. Microsoft is way to greedy, they want everyone to buy new systems. With the threat of buying a used ban system out there, everyone will buy new over used. Why do you think they publicized it so much. They figured it would help them more than hurt them.

Look at how greedy Bungi and Microsoft are.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/pre-...says-bungie-dev
http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/207259...ned-game-sales/

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 06:28 PM)

© upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service, any game or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, including software that prevents you from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices.

That says nothing about refunds (which is the real issue of the investigation and the topic of this thread).
Go troll somewhere else butt-pirate.

QUOTE(justtaint @ Nov 20 2009, 01:28 AM)

Sorry, but you're wrong.

FTC complaint flags NFL, MLB, studios for overstating copyright claims

MLB Refuses To Give Permission To Guy To Describe Game To A Friend - not an example, just what could happen if taken too far.

MLB has enough money to have staffers send DMCA takedown notices to Youtube regarding suspect content, and no individual has enough money to take them on. That doesn't make it illegal.

sorry but am not wrong.. a link to an article about someone filing a complaint doesn't make me wrong or make it legal.
They Have exclusive rights to everything involving the respective sports.. even down to images(pictures of players) and their voice. Has nothing to do with money or power and everything to do with copyright laws.
Are they concerned with you giving a play by play to a buddy?? no, but if you try to broadcast that play by play and turn a profit, they can and will come down hard...

QUOTE(mat82284 @ Nov 20 2009, 01:35 AM)

I'm sorry, but what i find "extremely laughable" is your post.

I'm sorry, but disabling the use of a smart card software is totally different. That would be equal to Microsoft disabling there xbox live account not the system its self and would need a new card (live account) to get service again. The Satellite companies don't corrupt there receivers, just the information on the card that shouldn't be there. This would be the same as Microsoft sending down its stock firmware to over right your hacked one so you cant play copied games anymore. They have no right to remove any features that come with the system that you paid for. They can attack people who pirate any way they wish, but they have to do it within the rights of the law. The have no right to corrupt game saves, and your live profile, so you cant put it on another xbox without loosing everything. This was retaliation and is illegal in some countries. If the satellite companies corrupted the receivers of users who illegally obtained channels then they would be sued for destroying someone eases property.

If this lawsuit wins, it'll only do 1 of 2 things. Refund everyone's live accounts, or unbann every system within the USA only, or both. Microsoft would not unban anyone else, but if this happens im sure other countries would attack Microsoft within there own laws as well.

Honestly, I wish Ebgames/gamestop jumped into this lawsuit. They are the ones getting banned systems and loosing alot of money on them. It's not like Microsoft was kind enough to send them a notice a week before hand to be carefully about receiving banned xbox360's. They should have send the company a letter, with a step by step procedure to test every system. You know why Microsoft never did that, They hate companies like gamestop. They don't want anyone to buy used games/system's because they don't get any money from it. Microsoft is way to greedy, they want everyone to buy new systems. With the threat of buying a used ban system out there, everyone will buy new over used. Why do you think they publicized it so much. They figured it would help them more than hurt them.

Look at how greedy Bungi and Microsoft are.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/pre-...says-bungie-dev
http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/207259...ned-game-sales/

and again, if you do a little research you are 100% wrong.. Dishnetwork was notorious for corrupting the tsop in their recievers via ECM when they detected an illegal card.

Microsoft has EVERY right to corrupt your profile and saves that you obtained on a illegally modified console, most likely on pirated software. What you are arguing is like trying to argue that if you rob a bank you still have the right to keep the stuff you bought with the money you stole..lol

is it retaliation?? could be, but that is in their right..as long as they are not harming you physically

Peopl;e whining are acting like it is some crime that M$ wants to make money or turn a profit. Thats is their ENTIRE sole purpose. They live and breath to make money...to me that whole thing just reeks of sour grapes...

**CRY** they corrupted my games saves when they caguht me being a pirate **CRY**

be thankful they are not suing

This post has been edited by medievil: Nov 20 2009, 01:47 AM

QUOTE(justtaint @ Nov 19 2009, 06:36 PM)

That says nothing about refunds (which is the real issue of the investigation and the topic of this thread).
Go troll somewhere else butt-pirate.

Hey now, no need to start insulting people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

20. Changes to the Service; If We Cancel the Service.

We may change the Service or delete or discontinue features, games, or other content at any time and for any reason (or no reason). We may cancel or suspend your Service at any time. Our cancellation or suspension may be without cause and without notice. Upon Service cancellation, your right to use the Service stops right away. Once the Service is cancelled or suspended, any data you have stored on the Service may not be retrieved later. Our cancellation of the Service will not alter your obligation to pay all charges made to your billing account. If we cancel the Service in its entirety without cause, then we will refund to you on a pro-rata basis the amount of payment that you have made corresponding to the portion of your Service remaining at the time ofcancellation.

Yes, it does, Troll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out about the bans, but you can't play any of your XBox Live Indie Games as they require you to be connected to Xbox Live.

QUOTE(DimmuJed @ Nov 19 2009, 06:44 PM)

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out about the bans, but you can't play any of your XBox Live Indie Games as they require you to be connected to Xbox Live.

That would also fall under the TOU i linked and have quoted. It's attached to the account, not the hardware. See also Section 12:

Unless we notify you otherwise, your license to use the software will end on the date your Service ends, and you must promptly uninstall and delete the software. We may disable the software after the date the Service terminates.

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 19 2009, 06:37 PM)

sorry but am not wrong.. a link to an article about someone filing a complaint doesn't make me wrong or make it legal.
They Have exclusive rights to everything involving the respective sports.. even down to images(pictures of players) and their voice. Has nothing to do with money or power and everything to do with copyright laws.
Are they concerned with you giving a play by play to a buddy?? no, but if you try to broadcast that play by play and turn a profit, they can and will come down hard...

Yes, they have exclusive rights and yes it does come down to copyright laws, but you are allowed fair use.

Read the government's own copyright website:
Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Fair use isn't a concept, its a legally practiced doctrine backed by case law.
If you want to allow corporations to take away your rights, that's on you.
I don't want to slowly be stripped of all my rights.

QUOTE(justtaint @ Nov 19 2009, 06:46 PM)

Yes, they have exclusive rights and yes it does come down to copyright laws, but you are allowed fair use.

Read the government's own copyright website:
Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Fair use isn't a concept, its a legally practiced doctrine backed by case law.
If you want to allow corporations to take away your rights, that's on you.
I don't want to slowly be stripped of all my rights.

From the Article: ...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

I wasn't aware that your (butt-hurt) pirated backups were intended for news reporting?

Before you start quoting Fair Use, you should ensure it actually supports your stance on the matter. I would assume that you're simply making backups as just that. A backup means of data preservation for your personal entertainment?

And also from the Article Section 109 (2)(B.)(ii)[...does not apply to...] a computer program embodied in or used in conjunction with a limited purpose computer that is designed for playing video games and may be designed for other purposes.

This post has been edited by phrozenfeonix: Nov 20 2009, 01:56 AM

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 06:43 PM)

Hey now, no need to start insulting people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

20. Changes to the Service; If We Cancel the Service.

We may change the Service or delete or discontinue features, games, or other content at any time and for any reason (or no reason). We may cancel or suspend your Service at any time. Our cancellation or suspension may be without cause and without notice. Upon Service cancellation, your right to use the Service stops right away. Once the Service is cancelled or suspended, any data you have stored on the Service may not be retrieved later. Our cancellation of the Service will not alter your obligation to pay all charges made to your billing account. If we cancel the Service in its entirety without cause, then we will refund to you on a pro-rata basis the amount of payment that you have made corresponding to the portion of your Service remaining at the time ofcancellation.

Yes, it does, Troll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

How convenient that Microsoft is the one determining cause.
It also says nothing about what happens when the service is cancelled with cause, plus (as its what I've been trying to point out all along), that doesn't make it legal.

You're the one slipping in veiled insults "butt-hurt" pirates?

The recent ban waves haven't affected me one bit. I have one unmodded console that is played daily and a another modded one for offline usage. A third console was banned years ago, but I no longer have that device. I have a problem when corporations stick it to citizens, and an even bigger problem when uninformed posters let it happen. I'm not defending the pirating of game discs, I believe that to be illegal and in the end costs jobs. EULA's and TOS's are not law. Just because they say something is prohibited in their TOS does not mean its illegal.

If you can't agree with me on that last point, then there is a serious disconnect somewhere.

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 20 2009, 01:28 AM)

© upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service, any game or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, or personal computer, including software that prevents you from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices.

if you read it, it clearly states with the xbl service on every thing, please tell me when did you need to have a gold or silver account to install games to the hdd and when did you need a gold or silver account to use media center on the xbox 360??

you can download the updates from M$ website and install them with out the service.

if i am wrong someone please quote in the Xbox TOU where it said disable functions of xbox that disables offline abilities not the Disable ability to access xbox live. i under stand the ban but not dissable features that have NOTHING TO DO WITH XBOX LIVE

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 06:52 PM)

From the Article: ...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

I wasn't aware that your (butt-hurt) pirated backups were intended for news reporting?

Before you start quoting Fair Use, you should ensure it actually supports your stance on the matter. I would assume that you're simply making backups as just that. A backup means of data preservation for your personal entertainment?

And also from the Article Section 109 (2)(B.)(ii)[...does not apply to...] a computer program embodied in or used in conjunction with a limited purpose computer that is designed for playing video games and may be designed for other purposes.

Way to misquote, the whole statement is:

((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) This subsection does not apply to —
(i) a computer program which is embodied in a machine or product and which cannot be copied during the ordinary operation or use of the machine or product; or

(ii) a computer program embodied in or used in conjunction with a limited purpose computer that is designed for playing video games and may be designed for other purposes.

You quote a portion of section 109 but not the subsection that this is actually referring to.
The whole of section 109 is referring to the transfer or sale of a copywritten work. I'm not talking about selling backups - go read the section again. Subsection B refers to the disposal of, or the authorization of the disposal of copywritten work.

This post has been edited by justtaint: Nov 20 2009, 02:06 AM

I made a blanket statement, referring to pirates being butt-hurt, while at the same time providing a definition of butt-hurt. If you took offense to what I said, it's far beyond my control that you are considering yourself a pirate.

What you said on the other hand, calling me a butt-pirate, is a direct5 attack on your perception of my sexual orientation.

Please keep flaming off the site.

Also, I agree with you that Microsoft does not set universal laws that apply to everyone. At the same time, i'm sure that you can't possibly be foolish believe that people should be allowed to play pirated games on live. As there's no plausible method of distinction between a legitimate back up and a pirated copy (thanks to optical drive firmware hackers), do you honestly expect Microsoft to let EVERYONE play backups? If that was the case, then they wouldn't put the security measures there in the first place.

Unfortunately, to circumvent these measures means applying a reverse engineered firmware, and therefor illegal.

By all means, make a copy of your purchase for your personal use.

Do not reverse engineer your drive to play the copy. Here's where the DMCA kicks in, and XS would prefer to turn a blind eye on the matter.

This contract covers your use of the Xbox LIVE and Games for Windows LIVE interactive services, and governsany other related services for which you choose to sign up (for example, specific game subscriptions), content, and other media (for example, items downloaded from Xbox LIVE Marketplace or Games for Windows LIVE Marketplaceand their successors)), software, machines, support, papers, updates, or upgrades. We refer to all of these as the "Service" and, except where context requires otherwise and even if not expressly referenced in the applicable section, Service includes any Other Items (defined in Section 8(a)) that you may have obtained access to through or in relation to other aspects of the Service. To avoid any confusion, when you register to use the Service, you are registering for both the Xbox LIVE service sand the Games for Windows LIVE service s.

By connecting your machine to Xbox Live (not necessarily meaning to create an Xbox Live account, nor using that account, obviously, you are agreeing to that TOU. No one forced you to hook your 360 up to the internet, but i'm guessing that at the bare minimum you've set up a silver account, maybe not on the xbox, but once a box has had an account signed on to XBL, you've agreed with that contract. All hardware used to access the service (even if it's just ads on the dashboard) becomes part of the agreement, as clearly stated.

If an xbox has never been on live, you have nothing to worry about. If you've set it up on a personal network, then you should take the responsibility to establis hyour network accordingly. The 360 doesn't need network connection to steam from Windows Media Center either.

I don't have a problem with MS banning people. I've never taken a backup online, and I never plan on it, and I realize that it might be impossible to tell the difference between an original and a backup.

My problem is with the heavy-handed tactics that MS employs to insure their profits.

Ban one of my consoles and I can switch the Live account to another one, but not everyone can do that.
In effect by banning the 360 of single console owners, (and refusing to refund the remaining pro-rated service) they are not fulfilling their legal obligation to render service (or forcing people into ponying up for another 360). That's for the courts to decide the legality, and the TOS or EULA or TOU doesn't make it legal.

This post has been edited by justtaint: Nov 20 2009, 02:18 AM

QUOTE(justtaint @ Nov 20 2009, 01:46 AM)

Yes, they have exclusive rights and yes it does come down to copyright laws, but you are allowed fair use.

Read the government's own copyright website:
Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Fair use isn't a concept, its a legally practiced doctrine backed by case law.
If you want to allow corporations to take away your rights, that's on you.
I don't want to slowly be stripped of all my rights.

Fair use doesn't exist anymore, hasn't for a long time.. but go ahead believe in that pipe dream where you think you can rip a company off in the name of fair use..lol

QUOTE(justtaint @ Nov 19 2009, 06:56 PM)

How convenient that Microsoft is the one determining cause.
It also says nothing about what happens when the service is cancelled with cause, plus (as its what I've been trying to point out all along), that doesn't make it legal.

You're the one slipping in veiled insults "butt-hurt" pirates?

The recent ban waves haven't affected me one bit. I have one unmodded console that is played daily and a another modded one for offline usage. A third console was banned years ago, but I no longer have that device. I have a problem when corporations stick it to citizens, and an even bigger problem when uninformed posters let it happen. I'm not defending the pirating of game discs, I believe that to be illegal and in the end costs jobs. EULA's and TOS's are not law. Just because they say something is prohibited in their TOS does not mean its illegal.

If you can't agree with me on that last point, then there is a serious disconnect somewhere.

You're right just because something is in the TOS or EULA does not make it illegal but it is an agreement between you and the other party in this case Microsoft, if you do not agree with the terms of those agreements you are instructed to return the product for a refund. If you keep it you are bound by that agreement. You would be up in arms and filing a lawsuit if you had a contract with another party and they breeched, how is it you feel this is any different.

You willingly accepted the terms of the EULA or TOS if not you should have returned it.

I don't necessarily agree with the EULA or TOS of most products and I generally do what I want with the things I buy, which is why my Xbox has been banned, but I am not going to argue fair use and all that when they finally catch me.

The only thing that upsets me over this whole ordeal is the fact that they shroud this whole thing in a bunch of talk of anti-piracy, none of it is really about anti-piracy it is all about making more money. If they take away just enough features to just upset you you will probably just shrug it off as oops I got caught, buy a new xbox and continue to spend money. If they really screw you over then you are likely to not buy another xbox, which is why they didn't go all out and stop the piracy entirely.

They have the ability to completely disable the xbox from playing any and all pirated discs, and they would be within their right to do so by revoking your license to the software in the Xbox for violating the EULA or TOS. It would mean disabling the ability to play all games though and that would really piss off the end user and then they wouldn't buy a replacement console and thats why it hasn't happened. I would be far less upset by all of this if they didn't do it half assed, don't take away bits and pieces and say they are just protecting themselves do it right and get it over with.

Re-read the XBL terms of use and you'll find that they are under no legal obligation that you're talking about.
I think also that you keep forgetting something. Your account isn't suspended, why should they be refunding you for it?

Your hardware isn't harmed, why should they be refunding you for that? The hardware works perfectly fine.

Also, they're not forcing you to buy a replacement xbox. Yours works fine. They don't want it connecting to their service, maybe. But again, that falls under the XBL TOU. Which of course means that we're talking about live, in which case your account isn't banned.

I'm not seeing the problem here. If they don't want you using the software they own, they're under no legal obligation to support you.

Your account is not suspended your console is banned, so with that in mind has anyone who has been banned even attempted to get a refund? If you call them up pissing and moaning about how you got banned and you demand your money back you probably won't get far but if you just call and cancel your account they should give you a prorated refund. I have canceled my account before and they refunded the remainder of the fees no questions asked.

QUOTE(phrozenfeonix @ Nov 19 2009, 07:14 PM)

I made a blanket statement, referring to pirates being butt-hurt, while at the same time providing a definition of butt-hurt. If you took offense to what I said, it's far beyond my control that you are considering yourself a pirate.

What you said on the other hand, calling me a butt-pirate, is a direct5 attack on your perception of my sexual orientation.

Please keep flaming off the site.

Also, I agree with you that Microsoft does not set universal laws that apply to everyone. At the same time, i'm sure that you can't possibly be foolish believe that people should be allowed to play pirated games on live. As there's no plausible method of distinction between a legitimate back up and a pirated copy (thanks to optical drive firmware hackers), do you honestly expect Microsoft to let EVERYONE play backups? If that was the case, then they wouldn't put the security measures there in the first place.

Unfortunately, to circumvent these measures means applying a reverse engineered firmware, and therefor illegal.

By all means, make a copy of your purchase for your personal use.

Do not reverse engineer your drive to play the copy. Here's where the DMCA kicks in, and XS would prefer to turn a blind eye on the matter.

This contract covers your use of the Xbox LIVE and Games for Windows LIVE interactive services, and governsany other related services for which you choose to sign up (for example, specific game subscriptions), content, and other media (for example, items downloaded from Xbox LIVE Marketplace or Games for Windows LIVE Marketplaceand their successors)), software, machines, support, papers, updates, or upgrades. We refer to all of these as the "Service" and, except where context requires otherwise and even if not expressly referenced in the applicable section, Service includes any Other Items (defined in Section 8(a)) that you may have obtained access to through or in relation to other aspects of the Service. To avoid any confusion, when you register to use the Service, you are registering for both the Xbox LIVE service sand the Games for Windows LIVE service s.

By connecting your machine to Xbox Live (not necessarily meaning to create an Xbox Live account, nor using that account, obviously, you are agreeing to that TOU. No one forced you to hook your 360 up to the internet, but i'm guessing that at the bare minimum you've set up a silver account, maybe not on the xbox, but once a box has had an account signed on to XBL, you've agreed with that contract. All hardware used to access the service (even if it's just ads on the dashboard) becomes part of the agreement, as clearly stated.

If an xbox has never been on live, you have nothing to worry about. If you've set it up on a personal network, then you should take the responsibility to establis hyour network accordingly. The 360 doesn't need network connection to steam from Windows Media Center either.

There is no DMCA in canada, there's a perfectly legal modchip/console mod store 5 mins drive from my house. Since your profile states you are from alberta i'm assuming tis to be true.

I'm not saying fair use holds up in court here, but the modifying of ones console is perfectly legal.

I'm not banned. I'm not asking for a refund.
I think you're confused about some personal attachment I have to this case.

I posted on this thread to refute the claims of the posters who believe that solely because something is written into a EULA/TOS/TOU that its somehow law. I chose the argument of fair use to disprove a portion of their argument. EULA's are not legally binding contracts. Xbox Live's TOS are not laws. This is a small but very important distinction that some people aren't recognizing.

QUOTE(AddNtoX @ Nov 19 2009, 06:36 PM)

There is no DMCA in canada, there's a perfectly legal modchip/console mod store 5 mins drive from my house. Since your profile states you are from alberta i'm assuming tis to be true.

I'm not saying fair use holds up in court here, but the modifying of ones console is perfectly legal.

Enjoy that while it lasts, no, really, hold on to that sliver of hope with everything you have. The governemnt is currently looking in to a copyright reform VERY similar to the DMCA (Copy Pasta, if you will)

QUOTE(justtaint @ Nov 19 2009, 07:37 PM)

I'm not banned. I'm not asking for a refund.
I think you're confused about some personal attachment I have to this case.

I posted on this thread to refute the claims of the posters who believe that solely because something is written into a EULA/TOS/TOU that its somehow law. I chose the argument of fair use to disprove a portion of their argument. EULA's are not legally binding contracts. Xbox Live's TOS are not laws. This is a small but very important distinction that some people aren't recognizing.

No they are not laws but you are bound to their terms to an extent, they can not write in terms that are blatently against the law, and no where in either the Xbox 360 EULA or Xbox Live TOS do they violate any laws. They simply outline what you can and can not do with their software and services. If you do not agree with those terms you are instructed to either disconnect from Live or return the product to the store.

If you do keep the product or continue to subscribe to the service and then violate the terms they have the right to take action in this case banning your system. It doesn't say that they will keep your money it says that you are still responsible for paying your bill, which is of no consequence in regards to Xbox Live because you pay in advance for service. If you get banned and call to cancel they will refund your money. They are not going to be proactive and refund your money right away because you are not suspended you have to request the refund and therefore they still are not violating any laws or even their own TOS.

Chorizo, was that you that commented the other day about more and more "lawyers" popping up on XBox-Scene? It may or may not have been, but I got quite a laugh.

My post was pointless to this topic, just adding +1 to my overall posts.

HERES A PICTURE OF THE LAWYER HANDLING THE CASE:

IPB Image

QUOTE

When asked about what Microsoft was doing Lawyer Jackie Chiles responded: "What they are doing is lewd, lascivious, salacious, outrageous!"

I just felt the need to log back in after all this time and give my 2cents worth

to those that have been banned off Live....err, tough luck is all I can say

there's no grey area here at all

you either...1 play an original game and live happily ever after
or 2...play a copy/hack/modded game and get banned

I congratulate MS on taking this stance regardless of how nefarious the timing is

you can still play your non original games on the xbox, if you want to be part of the greater paid community that is live...buy original games!

of course there's a million whingers out there that'll argue every possible permutation of outcomes, some people simply have skulls too thick to comprehend that they are wrong

thumbs up for MS from me on this one

QUOTE(bleugh @ Nov 20 2009, 02:26 AM)

thumbs up for MS from me on this one

I appreciate the fact that a lot of us have been banned. What I dont like is the corruption. I don't like that they took away install to HD, I just think its completely underhanded...ask yourself why they did this?? does it stop us playing backups? no....they did this because of laser life, they know that even if we dont go down the legit route we will most likely have to at some point when our lasers die out.

I kinda agree with their not sharing the HD to a legit box, because your still adding to played games and gamerscore with backup games. Game saves should not be corrupted however...especially if those games are originals.

As for any chance of legal action being succesful?? No fuc*ing way. Its microsoft, they can do whatever the f*ck they want.

This is fantastic! LIVE sucks ass in my opinion, I'm not banned... but I do think M$ deserves a lot of crap for messing with peoples hardware, ie the HDD. They deserve to be sued. Again.

To me it comes down to the fact that once you break that seal on your xbox to mod it you have waved all of your rights and microsoft has every right to revoke any part of there software, if they really wanted to go hard on you they could have actually deleted the whole dashboard leaving the console completely using and you still wouldn't be able to do anything about it because they own the rights to the software and can revoke the rights at any time. still leaving the hardware intact as that is what you truly are paying for and software is actually theres and theres alone. That being said I still opened mine up and modded it but don't use it online. lol

QUOTE(not2able @ Nov 20 2009, 03:37 AM)

I appreciate the fact that a lot of us have been banned. What I dont like is the corruption. I don't like that they took away install to HD, I just think its completely underhanded...ask yourself why they did this?? does it stop us playing backups? no....they did this because of laser life, they know that even if we dont go down the legit route we will most likely have to at some point when our lasers die out.

I kinda agree with their not sharing the HD to a legit box, because your still adding to played games and gamerscore with backup games. Game saves should not be corrupted however...especially if those games are originals.

As for any chance of legal action being succesful?? No fuc*ing way. Its microsoft, they can do whatever the f*ck they want.

lots of interpretations of the argument...however, the HDD 'corruption' 100% guarantees that you can't play backups copied to the HDD

consider the slower loading of your original discs and blocking from live as a minor punishment considering the potential other repercussions of making backups

QUOTE(XanTium @ Nov 19 2009, 06:04 AM)

yea, I'm surprised too ... the HDD Crippling would make more sense than what they are trying to go after.
They are probably clueless about the whole thing ... maybe someone should inform them.

I think they are clueless. They claim that Microsoft conveniently banned people after ODST to increase their xbox live subscription sales... ODST is purely a single player game O.o

DO NOT BE AFRAID!!!

we have ms fanboyz telling u to go hide and buy a new console..

SUREEEEEEEE....

just sign up and let the world know!!

here in norway this have made the news and the consumerservice deparytement is looking into it,
why??

BECAUSE BANNING AN XBOX U OWN IS ILLEGAL!!!!

and also making it a "brick" is ILLEGAL!!!

so sign up, u are all protected so dont be afraid,, JEEZZ..

QUOTE(torbjorn @ Nov 20 2009, 04:51 AM)

DO NOT BE AFRAID!!!

we have ms fanboyz telling u to go hide and buy a new console..

SUREEEEEEEE....

just sign up and let the world know!!

here in norway this have made the news and the consumerservice deparytement is looking into it,
why??

BECAUSE BANNING AN XBOX U OWN IS ILLEGAL!!!!
and also making it a "brick" is ILLEGAL!!!

so sign up, u are all protected so dont be afraid,, JEEZZ..

did you agree to M$ terms and conditions for Live?? if so, it is perfectly legal and you are living in a dream world thinking it isn't...be grateful they DIDN'T brick the whole console, cause that is within their right

If I had to hazard a guess I would bet that what MS has done is illegal. Do I think anything will come of this law suit? Probably not.

The issue here that needs to be focused on is this: The moment the ToS is deemed broken the service provider (MS) has all rights to discontinue service. But what they don't have the right to do is to extend service in lieu of the broke ToS just to cause malicious damage. Here's an example.

Legal: Microsoft detects a modded system. The ToS is deemed broken. Microsoft ends service.

Illegal: Microsoft detects a modded system. The ToS is deemed broken. Microsoft continues "servicing" the system. Microsoft modifies the system. Microsoft ends service.

Microsoft can't have it both ways, they can't extend service to their own benefit and then end it at their convenience. The only possible gray area would be if the system was designed in a manner where it was all reactionary. Which is to say the system attempts to connect to xbox live, is told it is banned and is pre-programmed to cripple itself. The question would then be is this "kill-switch" clearly disclosed.

Speaking of disclosure, one thing I'd like to know is when do we knowingly enter into the ToS agreement? Is it given to us upon purchase of the system? Is it given to us when we initially start the system? Or is it given to us when we sign up for Live?

I think that the modification of systems has cost MS money (in so far as the resources they have spent to detect and weed out the modified systems) and as such MS has a right to seek justice against the guilty parties via the courts. They do not however have the right to mete out their own brand of vigilante justice in the form of system crippling.

This is at the very least my 2 cents on the matter. It is mostly conjecture, as I am a philosopher by trade; not a lawyer.

QUOTE

And you have those poor people who try to save a few bucks buy getting a pre owned console from EB games gamestop etc etc only to find out 10 months later its banned because the store sold them a modified console that was pre owned. Technically the end user did not "knowingly or willfully" break the TOS.

Umm your arguement is with EB or Gamestop or whoever sold you the product which does not do what they said it would do when they sold it to you, not M$. This is an issue a second hand reseller will need to take into account when deciding to offer second hand goods. They will need to ensure it works as described.

QUOTE

Lastly, more importantly and why this case should go to court. How do we know that microsofts detection system does not produce false positives. There's no right to appeal, and you have no right way of having their enforcement policies and techniques reviewed by a third party.

Well there is in fact methods for getting your situation reviewed through the xbox.com website. Be warned however, if that upon investigation they find you have in fact modified your machine, they have been known to ban the attached gamertags. You want to be 100% sure it's a justified investigation or it won't come out in your favour.

Oh and the guys going on about the freedom of information act, the bans are done based off the consoles unique id, it has nothing to do with the users details. (Early games play tag bans are a different topic, but not one in the modders favour).

Really people instead of being pissed off for getting caught for doing the wrong thing, how about you man up and cop the consequences of your actions.

As far as arcade games, streaming codecs etc go if they were licenced to the banned console they still work as they should. So M$ hasn't changed anything here. The licencing agreement remains unchanged from pre-banned to banned.

HDD crippling? Well I'm not getting into this one, as I beleive it would come down to regional legislation depending on the countries people live in. Keep in mind though that this "Class Action" is US based. You will have broken the law in that country, so have fun persuing this.

After reading the last 19 pages, I'm really baffled how you can get so many people thinking there is a just cause in this Class action. Though wonder the world is so f'd up. Maybe we really do need laws to protect people from themselves, and here I was being an anti-cencorship supportor, I may just have to reconsider my stance on that.

So if you mod windows 7 in anyway can MS hack into your Windows and stop it from connecting to the internet and then destroy the files on your hard drive and gather all your personal information from your computer...

That's exactly what they did with the XBOX!

Screw MS, I'm loving my PS3, and I must say, the games have come a long way and are just as good if ot better as the 360.. seriously.. PS3 is a great quality system and I'm glad I finally got one!

lol...
thats a win for M$... why would they care if someone who is pirating leaves them??? So sony picks a few more sales... M$ ont he other hand shows hackers they are serious and satisfies shareholders that they are combating piracy...

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 19 2009, 08:41 PM)

lol...
thats a win for M$... why would they care if someone who is pirating leaves them??? So sony picks a few more sales... M$ ont he other hand shows hackers they are serious and satisfies shareholders that they are combating piracy...

IMO Microsoft is the worst place to buy stocks in. Like a roller coaster.

I think I would like to weigh in on this discussion because a lot of people are cutting Microsoft too much slack.

As said before, a TOS is NOT a law by any means. Yes, Microsoft can ban people and what not but there is such a thing as good and bad business practices. Microsoft could add any sort of clause they want to but that doesn't mean what they are doing is legal.

Crippling hardware is definitely very shaky ground, even for microsoft. Also, to those of you who are scoffing at the point being made about the timing of the bans, don't be so sure of yourself. I'm not an expert on law but such profit-making schemes could make a difference in court. Why wouldn't microsoft just ban you when they find out? In fact, the timing really is everything, especially for people who bought used 360s or got them back from a repair center and were banned for it later. If you got your console back, used it legitimately for 3 or more months, and then got banned, you have no recourse whatsoever.

That's another issue. Microsoft is practicing bad business by not allowing the xbox to be inspected.

My point is that Microsoft is not above the law. The law isn't always fair, but sometimes it is. Microsoft is providing a service and selling a product and they are responsible to their customers. I'm sure if this case does get anywhere, Microsoft will try its hardest to put it down with their lawyers. But even so what Microsoft is doing and has done to some people is just wrong and even if they get away with it, it should at least be exposed. I dont care what kind of bullshit is in their TOS, there are still innocent people being banned, and worse having their hard drive crippled

QUOTE(jeffrey92 @ Nov 20 2009, 06:01 AM)

I think I would like to weigh in on this discussion because a lot of people are cutting Microsoft too much slack.

As said before, a TOS is NOT a law by any means. Yes, Microsoft can ban people and what not but there is such a thing as good and bad business practices. Microsoft could add any sort of clause they want to but that doesn't mean what they are doing is legal.

Crippling hardware is definitely very shaky ground, even for microsoft. Also, to those of you who are scoffing at the point being made about the timing of the bans, don't be so sure of yourself. I'm not an expert on law but such profit-making schemes could make a difference in court. Why wouldn't microsoft just ban you when they find out? In fact, the timing really is everything, especially for people who bought used 360s or got them back from a repair center and were banned for it later. If you got your console back, used it legitimately for 3 or more months, and then got banned, you have no recourse whatsoever.

That's another issue. Microsoft is practicing bad business by not allowing the xbox to be inspected.

My point is that Microsoft is not above the law. The law isn't always fair, but sometimes it is. Microsoft is providing a service and selling a product and they are responsible to their customers. I'm sure if this case does get anywhere, Microsoft will try its hardest to put it down with their lawyers. But even so what Microsoft is doing and has done to some people is just wrong and even if they get away with it, it should at least be exposed. I dont care what kind of bullshit is in their TOS, there are still innocent people being banned, and worse having their hard drive crippled

If someone Innocent is banned (Which I highly doubt, even using the Gamestop senerio, that isn't on M$, take it up with Gamestop) then they can contact them and work it out. As has been pointed out it IS possible to get it unbanned if it is really a mistake and M$'s investigation shows that. Otherwise nothing they did in the ban is illegal...
The worst thing they did is block HD installs.. big whoop.... a modded console broke the user agreement and M$ has the right to then limit what you can do on said console..
It's a two way street, you agree to abid by M$'s TOS...once you break that, M$ is no longer obligated to allow you to do anything on the console. They could literally brick them and it would be legal...

QUOTE(Bearhug @ Nov 19 2009, 10:20 PM)

Umm your arguement is with EB or Gamestop or whoever sold you the product which does not do what they said it would do when they sold it to you, not M$. This is an issue a second hand reseller will need to take into account when deciding to offer second hand goods. They will need to ensure it works as described.

It may be the fault of the company that sold the second hand system, but that still doesn't help the person who bought it. If you bought a system from a place like Gamestop, which I have seen they do not check consoles like they should, and 4 months later it was banned, that is past their warranty from Gamestop so what would happen then? I would bet money that Gamestop would not switch you systems or give you money back nor would they buy it back either knowing they would not be able to resell it. I have had a few friends buy systems from Gamestop that have had many things done to them. I have seen spoofed drives, x-clamp fixes, the white case serial number and the metal inside casing serial number not matching, and even once saw a system that someone took out the memory slots off the motherboard and Gamestop bought it and sold it. Anyone who would buy a system from Gamestop, at least in my area, are idiots for doing so, but you would figure a game store like that would take more pride and effort in buying and reselling systems. Anyways if people can prove they bought the system used from Gamestop and they were banned I think they have a right to be part of the lawsuit, at least in my opinion.

QUOTE(djkneegrow @ Nov 20 2009, 06:42 AM)

It may be the fault of the company that sold the second hand system, but that still doesn't help the person who bought it. If you bought a system from a place like Gamestop, which I have seen they do not check consoles like they should, and 4 months later it was banned, that is past their warranty from Gamestop so what would happen then? I would bet money that Gamestop would not switch you systems or give you money back nor would they buy it back either knowing they would not be able to resell it. I have had a few friends buy systems from Gamestop that have had many things done to them. I have seen spoofed drives, x-clamp fixes, the white case serial number and the metal inside casing serial number not matching, and even once saw a system that someone took out the memory slots off the motherboard and Gamestop bought it and sold it. Anyone who would buy a system from Gamestop, at least in my area, are idiots for doing so, but you would figure a game store like that would take more pride and effort in buying and reselling systems. Anyways if people can prove they bought the system used from Gamestop and they were banned I think they have a right to be part of the lawsuit, at least in my opinion.

thats the chance you take buying ANY used system.. look at the number of people in this thread that admit to selling their banned console on ebay...
Honestly knowing that M$ bans consoles why would anyone purchase a used one when you can get a refurbished elite or new arcade (And reformat your HD and use it as normal) for about the same amount of money...

This will end in a settlement with Microsoft awarding each system owner 1 Free Year of Xbox Live Service.

QUOTE(krwz @ Nov 20 2009, 07:25 AM)

This will end in a settlement with Microsoft awarding each system owner 1 Free Year of Xbox Live Service.

lol..what will they use it on??? the new systems they'd have to buy....

again... win/win for M$

I don't think there is much of a case here, after all Microsoft are not actually disabling any specific features of the console, they are just revoking the trusted status of the console. HDD install, game saves, etc are signed to protect from gamerscore cheating, exploited saves or unauthorised content to be installed on the console. If they weren't signed, then people could easily hack saves to boost gamerscore or modify game content installed on the HDD. This is what they are trying to protect by revoking/deleting the certificates on the console.

I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy and was also banned but i don't think there is much of a case here since the trust was broken by the user in modifying the console and, as the issuing authority of the certificates, they are in their right to revoke/remove access to those certificates.

If you want to blame someone, blame all the guys who used saves to boost their gamescore. That's what really started all this.

Good luck to anyone who joins the suiit though.

Wow... To be 100% honest I am surprised to see any kind of class action on this matter.. The people banned have violated the XBL\ Xbox360 TOS... Every one banned was banned for a reason (modified firmware etc pirated copies of games etc...

Modified controllers.... These actions will continue into the future.. You have signed up to abide by the rules so having a class actions is merely a joke to me..

Sorry every1 banned you deserve what you get.. I hope Microsoft takes out another cool million soon ..

As for the disabling of features.. This has been known since day 1 that Microsoft was able to do this on the 360 etc.. You also gave permission for all of this to happen when you signed up for XBL.. It's in the TOS..

I'm not really willing nor do I have the time to read those 20+ pages here, but I may have another point if it hasn't come up yet.

Let's say I'm not interested in playing online, I got banned for whatever reason, but I still buy a game, let's say good ol' Fable 2. How am I supposed to get the current update/patch for the game, as it is known that the stock version might not be fully playable? Isn't the publisher liable for getting the game fully playable? Am I missing here something or is the console bricked in that way too?

To all the people saying "you got what you deserved": Are you THAT much of low lifes that you have to feast on the people that now are suffering and confirm your own actions of always buying originals and never backing them up? It seems you're pretty much jealous of people pirating games (because you paid for it and they have the same fun without paying) or people having the COURAGE to modify their boxes to play backups of legitimate originals (because YOU simply didn't have the balls).
I was banned because I played BACKUPS. I'm not willing to lose an original again thru the "auto-scratch feature", also I'm not willing to pay halve the price of the game for a replacement disc. Some of my save games DON'T WORK ANYMORE ON EXACT THAT CONSOLE THAT WAS BANNED!!! Do you think that is ok too? Of course you do! Why don't you say in clear words what you (unwillingly) paraphrased? "Just do what the big company tells you to!" SHEEP!

This ridiculous lawsuit will get absolutely no where. They are mixing oil and vinegar.

The suit is basically to get a refund on the remainder of your Xbox Live subscription. And they are using the "timing" of the bans as evidence? What does that have to do with anything??

Your XBL subscription DID NOT get suspended. Console bans and XBL subscription bans are totally different. How in the world do they realistically expect to get far with this?

The cable companies "zapped" thousands of modified cable boxes that allowed us to watch free channels and PPV.
Where was the the class action lawsuit then?? Microsoft has the same right to protect their service.

Again, if I have to pay 200$ or more to get back to my XBL account and my MS points, that is simply in no relation to the paid value for the service, and THAT'S what wrong here!

Also, cable companies do NOT zap your settop box because you xeroxed the TV guide!

As for the "MS does what the stockholders want" sayers: Don't you get it? 1 million boxes got banned! And those million people aren't the only ones having their boxes modded. More than half the people I know owning a 360 have flashed drives! I dare to say that most of them only bought the Xbox BECAUSE of the possibility of modding them. With the news that MS is banning more and more people in numbers that can't be called wave anymore (tsunami would be more appropriate) the sales WILL decrease. It can't be too hard to get what this means for the shares. So much for the stockholders!

The proposed lawsuit if done correctly will play out only if it is done on the fact of Marketing/Sales infringement based on 3 things. 1st, a TOS violation doesn't have the right to disable the unit from playing legitimate games and achievements with those games(says so itself in the TOS, can only disable the xbl service), and 2nd is it doesn't state anywhere in the Message received from MS being banned that future game titles purchased (which when opened cant be returned of course) will also not function for the uses they are purchased for, like game saves and achievements. 3rd is that MS cant Market and Sale a device with features that you cannot use (check with any of the multiple cell phone company lawsuits over the past few years) after the ban especially if it was a feature that was included on the device when purchased before having XBL service (its called false advertising). I for one was banned and i don't really care for any retaliation, but this is the same stuff that has been going on for awhile with cell phone companies and they either settled a lawsuit or fixed the problem. I just went through one with Verizon with the Omnia for selling it with open GPS capabilities, but not actually having gps features, only their VZ Nav monthly service which was false advertising. They put out an update to open up the GPS features to avoid the lawsuits.

Hey guys, like many of you, I turned on my 360 today to see it was banned unlawfully. The system in question is NOT MODIFIED yet was banned nonetheless. So I decided to do something about it and fight back. If you're on Facebook, join the fight at http://www.facebook....HT/195454205664 and become a fan, and find out how YOU can join the class action lawsuit! Lets hit these fuckers where it hurts: Their wallets.

What they did was totally fine.

1) It's their system, their rules. You agreed to play by them when you accepted the ToS and CoC when you went on LIVE. Any modification is totally prohibited, Microsoft reserved the right to suspend service to anyone at any given time for any or no reason, as stated in both those Licenses.

2) The flashing of your drive is legal in a sense, but playing backup games (siding the fact of piracy of course) is illegal because you are making an illegal copy without the owners permission. Having that illegal copy is... well... illegal in itself so in law, one of the biggest things they look at is intent. If you flash your drive, your intent is to play an illegal copy of a game (a copy of the software that the owners did not consent to).

3) The console is still fully functional, but the content is locked to that console (easy ways to get around though) to prevent the spread of modified content. You can still buy games and play them, you just can't install games to a Hard Drive and you can't use your profile anywhere else but that console unless:
1) you recover it onto another system
or
2) you mod the STFS Licenses out of the package

It's their console, their rules, there's no such thing as "owners information" that MS is taking because you are using their equipment and their services, they are just collecting data. Their rules, if you don't want to play by them, then don't play their console. Simple as that.

QUOTE(DJ Shepherd @ Nov 20 2009, 05:06 AM)

What they did was totally fine.

1) It's their system, their rules. You agreed to play by them when you accepted the ToS and CoC when you went on LIVE. Any modification is totally prohibited, Microsoft reserved the right to suspend service to anyone at any given time for any or no reason, as stated in both those Licenses.

2) The flashing of your drive is legal in a sense, but playing backup games (siding the fact of piracy of course) is illegal because you are making an illegal copy without the owners permission. Having that illegal copy is... well... illegal in itself so in law, one of the biggest things they look at is intent. If you flash your drive, your intent is to play an illegal copy of a game (a copy of the software that the owners did not consent to).

3) The console is still fully functional, but the content is locked to that console (easy ways to get around though) to prevent the spread of modified content. You can still buy games and play them, you just can't install games to a Hard Drive and you can't use your profile anywhere else but that console unless:
1) you recover it onto another system
or
2) you mod the STFS Licenses out of the package

It's their console, their rules, there's no such thing as "owners information" that MS is taking because you are using their equipment and their services, they are just collecting data. Their rules, if you don't want to play by them, then don't play their console. Simple as that.

it's not microsoft's console once somebody has bought it. broad tos can be beaten in court depending on interpretation. people playing backups on xbox live should have known better. disabling of hdd installs is lame. have 2 xbox's, one for live, one for offline, most people with common sense do this. mw2 is awesome to play on live.

I do think the hard drive and game save issues may be legally questionable on Microsoft's part. If you purchase a new console today it has NXE installed. If you set it up and never connect it to Live, can you copy games to hard drive? Can you move game saves to a memory card and play them on another console? If you can do either, Microsoft has removed out-of-the-box functionality, which goes beyond removing Live-specific features and functionality.

Not what I mean...

You have every right to modify a console, you have the right to do whatever you want, doesn't mean there won't be consequences.

There's laws relating to illegal mods which basically revolve around piracy or mods for the use and intent of pirating, which can conflict wif your rights.

Microsoft has every right to store a database full of serials that are issued to you, they have every right to look at their database.

They also have every right to prevent piracy, anyone committing a mod wif the intent of piracy has the possibility of being banned.

QUOTE(DJ Shepherd @ Nov 20 2009, 03:47 AM)

Not what I mean...

You have every right to modify a console, you have the right to do whatever you want, doesn't mean there won't be consequences.

There's laws relating to illegal mods which basically revolve around piracy or mods for the use and intent of pirating, which can conflict wif your rights.

Microsoft has every right to store a database full of serials that are issued to you, they have every right to look at their database.

They also have every right to prevent piracy, anyone committing a mod wif the intent of piracy has the possibility of being banned.

But that's the thing, they took it passed just banning the unit and instead disabled features that the xbox comes with off the shelf. Because MS doesn't have a clause stating that once you buy your xbox we can disable features that we advertised to you so you would buy it, that's where they had messed up at. If they would of just banned the gamer tag and your IP, then all would of been legal under there TOS. And there are laws that prevent and wave your rights for pirating dont get me wrong, but they do have to prove that each and every million or so users they banned where in deed pirating.

Vigilante justice is not any more right just because your name is microsoft, they designed the system originally with cheap drives, we came up with a backup method that was abused but nonetheless a backup system for poor dvd drives....
They chose to take justice in their own hands...
No one challenged the bans yet so MS figured they would take it one step further, they will do whatever they can get away with, whether right or just right in their opinion

QUOTE(DJ Shepherd @ Nov 20 2009, 10:06 AM)

2) The flashing of your drive is legal in a sense, but playing backup games (siding the fact of piracy of course) is illegal because you are making an illegal copy without the owners permission. Having that illegal copy is... well... illegal in itself so in law, one of the biggest things they look at is intent. If you flash your drive, your intent is to play an illegal copy of a game (a copy of the software that the owners did not consent to).

Why do people insist on making assumptions.

depending on your country's laws, it is NOT illegal to copy a game.

Tell me where on a game disc it says "Do not copy this disc". It doesn't.

It says "Do not make illegal copies of this disc", implying that if your country allows you to make backups of media you own, you are permitted to do so. Look at how many UK websites sell backups of games. If this were illegal, they'd be shut down in matter of days.

As big a company as Microsoft is, they are not above the law.

Furthermore, if your drive is flashed and you weren't aware of the fact (purchased it unknowingly), you cannot be held liable.

Oh and intent is EXTREMELY hard to prove in a court of law, especially something like software piracy.

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Nov 20 2009, 07:22 AM)

Furthermore, if your drive is flashed and you weren't aware of the fact (purchased it unknowingly), you cannot be held liable.

According to MS's website about console bans, it states you are liable if the previous owner had flashed it and they will not reverse the ban.

So if you buy a used console from gamestop and 6 months later you are mysteriously banned, MS will tell you to go suck it and so will gamestop, so where is the innocent consumer protected here. Gamestop will not take it back and MS will not do anything for you. Most likely you would have to go through hoops to get an issue like this taken care of. Also if you think about it if you bought from someone on craigslist, you aren't going to have that person's number say 4-6+ months down the road.

Its just sad that MS would blow someone off if they bought a 2nd hand modded console and it got banned for the unsuspecting owner.

QUOTE(BoNg420 @ Nov 20 2009, 12:33 PM)

According to MS's website about console bans, it states you are liable if the previous owner had flashed it and they will not reverse the ban.

So if you buy a used console from gamestop and 6 months later you are mysteriously banned, MS will tell you to go suck it and so will gamestop, so where is the innocent consumer protected here. Gamestop will not take it back and MS will not do anything for you. Most likely you would have to go through hoops to get an issue like this taken care of. Also if you think about it if you bought from someone on craigslist, you aren't going to have that person's number say 4-6+ months down the road.

Its just sad that MS would blow someone off if they bought a 2nd hand modded console and it got banned for the unsuspecting owner.

Thanks for the reply, however I was talking from a civil prosecution point of view.

I understand Microsoft's 'Witch Hunt' tactics which is why they're not getting a penny more out of me.

Nothing like a bunch of children whining...

QUOTE(thehoweller @ Nov 20 2009, 04:42 AM)

Nothing like a bunch of children whining...

Isn't that what forums where for? JK

What percentage of modified consoles do you all think are used for "legal" backups? If its as much as 5% i would be shocked.

QUOTE(ynwa @ Nov 20 2009, 03:00 PM)

What percentage of modified consoles do you all think are used for "legal" backups? If its as much as 5% i would be shocked.

According to the ppl on these board 95% makes there own backups.

What bothers me is that if you're 360 is broken or had to be repaired, you can be banned for any type of hardware mod if they can detect it. I think that's terrible. First they make a crappy system, then the ban you for it.

I think I completely deserved my bans, but I still believe there are a number of people out there getting screwed with 2nd hand consoles, returns, and even consoles from a repair center. Microsoft is being unreasonable by saying they will not ever unban the consoles, forcing retailers and others to just buy brand new ones.

Why do people think Microsoft can do whatever it wants when a TOS does not guaruntee legality?

QUOTE(brandonbigdog @ Nov 20 2009, 01:07 PM)

But that's the thing, they took it passed just banning the unit and instead disabled features that the xbox comes with off the shelf. Because MS doesn't have a clause stating that once you buy your xbox we can disable features that we advertised to you so you would buy it, that's where they had messed up at. If they would of just banned the gamer tag and your IP, then all would of been legal under there TOS. And there are laws that prevent and wave your rights for pirating dont get me wrong, but they do have to prove that each and every million or so users they banned where in deed pirating.

umm not true they DO have that clause... read your 360 EULA not live's TOS
they reserve the right to alter, add or remove features at anytime without notice...

QUOTE(jeffrey92 @ Nov 20 2009, 04:02 PM)

What bothers me is that if you're 360 is broken or had to be repaired, you can be banned for any type of hardware mod if they can detect it. I think that's terrible. First they make a crappy system, then the ban you for it.

I think I completely deserved my bans, but I still believe there are a number of people out there getting screwed with 2nd hand consoles, returns, and even consoles from a repair center. Microsoft is being unreasonable by saying they will not ever unban the consoles, forcing retailers and others to just buy brand new ones.

Why do people think Microsoft can do whatever it wants when a TOS does not guaruntee legality?

if your 360 had to be repaired, as long as you sent it to M$ (Who is the ONLY group auhtorized to repair them) then you are fine... there is no reason to "repair" it yourself when M$ will do it for free unless your console is a launch one, which in that case, time for a new one anyway

QUOTE(shakeyplace @ Nov 20 2009, 01:39 PM)

You confuse piracy with legal backup, just because many are pirating they cannot punish those that are backing up

No, several consoles are mine... LOL, but true... back to vigilante justice...
Judt because MS puts it in writing does not make it legal! Just ask he EU

they CAN punish anyone for modding the console period...if they detect it has been modded they have the right to ban and disable features on it so it can't be used on their service nor used for piracy purposes.

i love all the ignorance
people saying this wont work cause its in the 360 EULA or xbox live the TOS
the fact of the mater is there hasn't been a solid EULA case because most EULAs and TOS have at least some clauses that break laws
thats why every case or atleast the vast majority (couldn't find case law otherwise) the companies
settled out of court

these corporations would rather pay out a smaller amount and keep there scare tactics than loose it in a court battle

My friend and I got our 360's banned the week before MW2 came out so we both bought a new elite when we went to pick up our pre orders of the game. I made sure to call microsoft to ask if I got a new 360 and used my old HDD i wouldn't get banned and they said that won't be a problem...My friend just called me and his new xbox(un modded) is now banned!!! That is not right if they are going to continue banning people who had xbox 360's that buy new ones and use them inside the TOS!!

Anyone else have there unmodded xbox banned?

"Of the many things people sue for, I'm surprised it took this long for this one to happen. I mean, disk scratching? Unless you're epileptic and need to cling to the xbox while playing a game, your disk isn't going to scratch."

Your wrong. But out of curiousity, how did you come to that conclusion? Actually, don't bother answering that.

Xbox's can scratch DVD's without any outside interference, exclusively in the vertical position.
Have you got any other proof other than the fact that you probably didn't have any of your own discs scratched? I've lost quite a few games due to scratches.

I've already discussed this in great detail; search for the BBC Watchdog thread and follow up on the links i provided within, preferably the ongoing lawsuit. Read the PDF entitled "xbox motion" from the lawsuit on seattlepi.com, which can be found through the washington post link. Also, check the Kassa study. Finally after reading enough, you should come to the conclusion that the Watchdog test is flawed for 2 main reason's; The game being used is not stressing the DVD drive enough (rockband) and the position of the console during the tests (horizontal).

If you don't want to do any of that than stop acting like you have a fucking clue when it come to xbox360's and scratched discs.

An epileptic seizure is what i would have if you can honestly tell me that you believe this lawsuit has more substance in it than that of a legitimate disc scratching lawsuit. Please bear in mind that the TOS weren't broken in this case and no games were pirated so it's a legitimate complaint too! WHA-?, a legitimate complaint?!? Haven't seen one of those in a few weeks...

How can you justify banning a brand new out of the box unmodded xbox 360 elite!

And I knew the consequences of modding the xbox when I did it, that's why when it happened I laughed it off and went and bought a new one so i could continue playing my 32 bought games online and got rid of my modded xbox because all I play is online...I am not complaining about being banned because I deserved it and all the other people who modded there xbox also deserved it but banning a virgin xbox for no reason makes no sense because i was told your gamertag wouldn't get you banned or else I would have just bought a new one!

QUOTE(escloflowne @ Nov 20 2009, 06:43 PM)

How can you justify banning a brand new out of the box unmodded xbox 360 elite!

My whole reply was in sarcasm just summing up what you are going to hear from a bunch of morons that keep posting in this thread that feel that MS is justified in anything they want to do. Just read through the majority of the pages, it's almost comical. They keep ignoring the fact that ALMOST everyone hear says they have every right to ban a MODDED CONSOLE FROM XBOX LIVE. But almost everyone hear also thinks MS is in the wrong for doing all the other crap they are doing from the 3rd party accessories to the banning of unmodded boxes too. But, like I said, you listen to some of these idiots and MS is allowed to do whatever they want. I'd like to hear their tune if they got their box banned for something BS or if it was one of the unmodded ones that got caught in the crossfire, what would they say then? COMPLETE IDIOTS!

QUOTE(ynwa @ Nov 20 2009, 02:00 PM)

What percentage of modified consoles do you all think are used for "legal" backups? If its as much as 5% i would be shocked.

I keep seeing this posted and frankly am now fed up with it.

It's totally irrelevent whether you are using it for legal or illegal purposes, since MS are not able (nor care) to distinguish between the two. Therefore everyone gets tarred with the same brush.

Just blanket banning people (and therefore corrupting data / HDD functionality) on the SUSPICION you are using your 360 for illegal purposes, without any recourse is unlawful in itself. What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

I have to concur with a previous poster who stated that EULAs and ToSs are not legally binding, nor are they always lawful. For instance, a Retailer might have a 'you break it, you buy it' store policy. In the UK this is illegal and against the Statutory Law set out for the Consumer Rights Act. The store could argue that by handling goods in the store you are agreeing to the terms they set out, but this doesn't make it any more lawful.

As for people complaining about the 'whining', grow up or go away. This is what a forum is for, especially with a subject as is. If you don't like it, don't read it.

QUOTE(sippin40ozs @ Nov 20 2009, 05:57 PM)

My whole reply was in sarcasm just summing up what you are going to hear from a bunch of morons that keep posting in this thread that feel that MS is justified in anything they want to do. Just read through the majority of the pages, it's almost comical. They keep ignoring the fact that ALMOST everyone hear says they have every right to ban a MODDED CONSOLE FROM XBOX LIVE. But almost everyone hear also thinks MS is in the wrong for doing all the other crap they are doing from the 3rd party accessories to the banning of unmodded boxes too. But, like I said, you listen to some of these idiots and MS is allowed to do whatever they want. I'd like to hear their tune if they got their box banned for something BS or if it was one of the unmodded ones that got caught in the crossfire, what would they say then? COMPLETE IDIOTS!

+1

escloflowne, he was just agreeing with you

QUOTE(Toddler @ Nov 20 2009, 01:29 PM)

Does anyone know, if you purchase a new console today, does it come with NXE installed?

My gf picked up a new sys for halo, and yes, install to hd was there out of box...however since they inlcude the update on games themselves, it already doesnt have anything to do with live anymore. Most self imposed banners will get nailed and crippled via the upadted revocation list inlcuded in new games.

On a more important note,

up and running on PSN, seems great to me.

Didnt even have to worry about making alias here and on PSN any different. Azuziel for those that want to help blow stuff up.

Sorry sippin40ozs I re read it after and got what you were saying...sarcasm doesn't translate so well on forums haha

why so many haters here, please growup... if you buy something, its yours to do whatever you want with it. that means you can smash your 360 if you want or due anything you want, that includes modding.. if you get caught on live playing with it, then yes ms got the right to ban the console and even the gamertag too but they cant cripple your system, its yours not theirs.. your not paying them rent on it so its yours.. im ok with the bannings myself since i got 3 that got banned i even got a gamertag ban as well so im not crying about that stuff but please accept that if you buy something you are free to do as you please... so console crippling as ms doing its not acceptable and hope this lawsuit can hit them hard... i deserved to get banned for playing live like i did and all of you here too, we all deserved it. i lost game saves too so im really against console crippling and they should reinburse you whatever the rest of your live membership you had left...

QUOTE(Fatalshotz @ Nov 20 2009, 10:04 PM)

why so many haters here, please growup... if you buy something, its yours to do whatever you want with it. that means you can smash your 360 if you want or due anything you want, that includes modding.. if you get caught on live playing with it, then yes ms got the right to ban the console and even the gamertag too but they cant cripple your system, its yours not theirs.. your not paying them rent on it so its yours.. im ok with the bannings myself since i got 3 that got banned i even got a gamertag ban as well so im not crying about that stuff but please accept that if you buy something you are free to do as you please... so console crippling as ms doing its not acceptable and hope this lawsuit can hit them hard... i deserved to get banned for playing live like i did and all of you here too, we all deserved it. i lost game saves too so im really against console crippling and they should reinburse you whatever the rest of your live membership you had left...

thats the fallacy of this entire argument.. the HD is NOT crippled.. it will work fine on the BANNED xbox..you just can't install games to the HD. That in no way cripples anything... did saves get shot up..sure, but that was because you were saving Pirated games.. not originals...and sine there is no way to tell the difference in a save file, they decided to hit them all...

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 20 2009, 05:20 PM)

thats the fallacy of this entire argument.. the HD is NOT crippled.. it will work fine on the BANNED xbox..you just can't install games to the HD. That in no way cripples anything... did saves get shot up..sure, but that was because you were saving Pirated games.. not originals...and sine there is no way to tell the difference in a save file, they decided to hit them all...

And that is why this alleged lawsuit will get nowhere. The HDD is usable on the BANNED console. People use the word "crippled" as if the HDD was rendered useless. The fact that you can still use your banned 360 and be a dirty pirate off line (and your XBL subscription is still valid to use on another 360) means that this suit has no midget legs to stand on.

This whole argument reminds me of the thief that breaks into someones house and gets shot on the way out and decides to sue. WTF.

Microsoft should take a hint from Direct TV. They should send bullets out randomly during each week and make the illegal consoles bricks totally unplayable. It will teach the tards not to put the illegal consoles on LIVE.

you should be able to play off the hdd on any console.

QUOTE(MaulerX @ Nov 20 2009, 09:36 PM)

And that is why this alleged lawsuit will get nowhere. The HDD is usable on the BANNED console. People use the word "crippled" as if the HDD was rendered useless. The fact that you can still use your banned 360 and be a dirty pirate off line (and your XBL subscription is still valid to use on another 360) means that this suit has no midget legs to stand on.

You're right - referring to it as 'HDD crippled' is wrong.

They're crippling the CONSOLE by removing OOTB functionality which has nothing to do with XBL or ToS for Xbox Live.

I'm sorry it takes someone to point this out to you. Maybe spending less time referring to others as 'dirty pirates' and possibly looking at this from another angle might serve you better.

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Nov 21 2009, 01:05 AM)

You're right - referring to it as 'HDD crippled' is wrong.

They're crippling the CONSOLE by removing OOTB functionality which has nothing to do with XBL or ToS for Xbox Live.

I'm sorry it takes someone to point this out to you. Maybe spending less time referring to others as 'dirty pirates' and possibly looking at this from another angle might serve you better.

what does XBL have to do with it?? thats just a part of the ban... they are banning the console for playing pirated games.. banned from XBL is simply PART of the ban, as is taking away HD installs and corrupting game saves...you guys are assuming it is just an XBL ban and that sit, but thats not what banning the console really is... it is a multiple of things to PUNISH people for modding and pirating games

QUOTE(Lifter @ Nov 21 2009, 01:30 AM)

The argument they use by speculating that the timing was a nefarious profit based conspiracy- so what! Weak ass argument there. They can block or not block violaters of the TOS whenever they want. If they're allowed to doi it (and they are) then it doesn't matter why they choose to ban on a certain date.

As for the console sending info back to MS, that is clearly part of their Live service as well. Another patheticly weak argument.

The only legit argument is the fact that in order to cripple the HD install functionality, Microsoft went in and altered files on the users' hardware without the users' permission. This is actually something they deserve to get nailed on. Even MS will claim that new feature is Tied to the Live service, you can't just mess with someone's property like that.

and again that is incorrect.. M$ has every right to disable features on their copyrighted hardware when they determine it is being used unlawfully.
Satellite companies do it all the time (They loop cards because you modify them, etc...)
the absolutely ONLY way you'd have a case is if the HD was rendered useless, it is not, they removed a feature because your consoles security has been compromised so they are not willing to allow it to continue, but the drive still functions, you can save games, etc.. ONLY on the banned console...

seems to me like all the people whining must have a bunch of games they downloaded installed on HD and can no longer play them

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 21 2009, 01:51 AM)

what does XBL have to do with it?? thats just a part of the ban... they are banning the console for playing pirated games.. banned from XBL is simply PART of the ban, as is taking away HD installs and corrupting game saves...you guys are assuming it is just an XBL ban and that sit, but thats not what banning the console really is... it is a multiple of things to PUNISH people for modding and pirating games
and again that is incorrect.. M$ has every right to disable features on their copyrighted hardware when they determine it is being used unlawfully.
Satellite companies do it all the time (They loop cards because you modify them, etc...)
the absolutely ONLY way you'd have a case is if the HD was rendered useless, it is not, they removed a feature because your consoles security has been compromised so they are not willing to allow it to continue, but the drive still functions, you can save games, etc.. ONLY on the banned console...
seems to me like all the people whining must have a bunch of games they downloaded installed on HD and can no longer play them

QUOTE(MaulerX @ Nov 20 2009, 09:33 PM)

Why take it so personal? It was a general term to describe the fact that YOU CAN STILL DO THE SAME THINGS YOU WERE DOING. Only offline. You want the cake and eat it too. The mere act of breaking the seal when you opened the console voided your warranty. If M$ wanted to be @$$ holes they could have fried your system and you couldn't do jack about it. I lol at your ignorance.

No, you can't do the same things you were doing. You can't play games from the hard drive, and you can't move saved games to another console. Both of those features are functions of current 360s the moment you plug them in, without ever joining Live. It's a simple point.

QUOTE(MaulerX @ Nov 21 2009, 04:33 AM)

If M$ wanted to be @$$ holes they could have fried your system and you couldn't do jack about it. I lol at your ignorance.

You're an idiot, that's all you are! You think it's lawful for a car manufacturer to disable your car because you bought a third party replacement part? You're completely insane.

QUOTE(Toddler @ Nov 21 2009, 06:06 AM)

No, you can't do the same things you were doing. You can't play games from the hard drive, and you can't move saved games to another console. Both of those features are functions of current 360s the moment you plug them in, without ever joining Live. It's a simple point.

yes they were.. BEFORE you broke the seal and modded the system...at that point, M$ has every right to disable features

QUOTE(Chan163 @ Nov 21 2009, 06:37 AM)

You're an idiot, that's all you are! You think it's lawful for a car manufacturer to disable your car because you bought a third party replacement part? You're completely insane.

third party replacement part for a car doesn't keep hurting the car makers bottom line, they simply void your warranty and will not fix it for free...

Altering a 360 to be able to play pirated games DOES hurt M$ bottom line, is against the terms and conditions which clearly state that if you do you run the risk of losing features on the console or rendering it useless...
it's really very simple, you do not have the right to alter it and expect ANYTHING to still function on the console if M$ detects the alteration. Doesn't matter WHY you alter it, the mere fact that you did give M$ every right...

What's with all these assholes coming in here voicing support for Microsoft vandalizing other peoples' property and why have they not been banned for trolling?

Yes Seriously some of these people are just trolling now.

People need to stop with their Judge Judy TV law education and wait and see how it all turns out.
I'll read all your harebrained theories about what caused the bans, but when it comes to the legal system its a bit much.

QUOTE(Chan163 @ Nov 21 2009, 01:37 AM)

You're an idiot, that's all you are! You think it's lawful for a car manufacturer to disable your car because you bought a third party replacement part? You're completely insane.

Seriously? Apples to Oranges. Try looking at my point without the F*uck Microsoft glassess.

If you fried your system soldering a mod chip, it's all your fault and your screwed. What if your system was to get fried by Microsoft? How can you prove in a court of law that it wasn't you who did something wrong?

I know people are upset and this lawsuit (that hasn't even been filed) gives them some sort of hope at revenge. But realistically speaking, I just don't see it getting very far. I guess we just have to wait and see.

QUOTE(MaulerX @ Nov 21 2009, 07:26 PM)

Seriously? Apples to Oranges. Try looking at my point without the F*uck Microsoft glassess.

If you fried your system soldering a mod chip, it's all your fault and your screwed. What if your system was to get fried by Microsoft? How can you prove in a court of law that it wasn't you who did something wrong?

I know people are upset and this lawsuit (that hasn't even been filed) gives them some sort of hope at revenge. But realistically speaking, I just don't see it getting very far. I guess we just have to wait and see.

to add to this further, what if it got fried by Microsoft ONLY because it had been modified.. same code on a non-modified 360 doesn't fry it...so in essence the Mod is WHY it got fired...
all the whiners don't have a leg to stand on, dunno what makes them think they can steal and still have rights..lol

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 21 2009, 08:43 PM)

to add to this further, what if it got fried by Microsoft ONLY because it had been modified.. same code on a non-modified 360 doesn't fry it...so in essence the Mod is WHY it got fired...
all the whiners don't have a leg to stand on, dunno what makes them think they can steal and still have rights..lol

I must agree, us modders live by the sword, and we shall die by it......

the only thing i dont agree on is " dunno what makes them think they can steal and still have rights..lol"

come on, they have more rights than the victim now.......ouch my back hurts in prison, this bed it too hard...........i know, I will sue them and rake in £80,000.........we all know it happens.........

just my point......thats all!

QUOTE(Mr_Milenko @ Nov 19 2009, 10:48 AM)

Though the idea of suing the shit out of Microsoft because we got caught doing stupid shit is a great idea in this economy, I wouldn't be surprised if everyone got permanently banned from Live! because of this ridiculous lawsuit. You have to take into account all of the legal shit Microsoft tied into there TOS, for example:

1) You own the hardware, you do not own the software wich is on the hardware or makes the hardware work, you are licensed by Microsoft to use the software wich in turn runs the hardware.. Shitty yes, legal yes, yours? Nope.. You can in fact legally replace the software that operates the hardware, if it ALL gets replaced. This is why projects like Xbox-Linux Free60 and libxenon are legal.

2) They do not cripple your save games, your Xbox can in fact still function as a gaming console. You just cant use your saves on another Xbox, this sadly is also perfectly legal. The xbox runs on a license system everything is hardcoded with DRM, If your console gets banned it can no longer sign personal content, therefore it cannot be used on another system.

3) Downloadable Content, again.. Licensing, You do not own the DLC, you own a license to use it. This license can be revoked at anytime for any number of reasons. If your gamertag is still active and you are using your DLC on the same xbox you have purchased it on, then it will still work on THAT xbox. If you are using it on a different xbox you have to be signed into live to use it.

4) Physical Media, this is where it kind of boggles me... But according to Microsoft/The Videogame Industry, You don't really own this. You own a license to use it in your game console, You can not make a digital copy unless authorized by the owner of the software. When you sell/trade/lend out your copy of the game, you are transfering your license to a 3rd party and are no longer legally allowed to use it, hence the reason you can not run it from your HDD anymore and a disc is needed in the drive.

Microsoft has everyone by the balls, They are a multi billion dollar corporation that employs hackers AND modders to battle everything that we throw at em. They know how to word everything in order to keep there asses out of trouble. Obviously Microsoft would do this seeing as its CEO is the richest pirate in the world. Gotta love a country where a company can start up by stealing an operating system, re-branding it, and earn billions.
[/rant]

See that is where there is one problem. This licensing system that you say Microsoft is trying to tout won't hold much water in court. This is because when you purchase the game you sign no contract nor do you agree to any license prior to the purchase. On this point Microsoft has no leg to stand on. As for the hardware and its required software. They advertise a system which plays xbox 360 games as well as has the dashboard feature. At no point in their advertisement do they state that you are purchasing only the hardware and a license to use their software. Should they cripple the software the 360 no longer functions as advertised. Therefore they are violating any number of consumer protection laws and could be slammed for false advertising.

Unfortunately for Microsoft and the Video game industry this licensing argument is equivalent to swiss cheese and most judges will take the opportunity to chastise them if given the chance. They are treading very very dangerous legal waters, and in these waters they are a small insignificant fish in comparison to the power a judge wields. Also DRM software is currently ill favored by many members of the legal community because it skates on thin ice due to the retail nature of the products it is included in as well as the affects it has on things outside of their domain of influence ie pcs, ipods, etc.

I'll be straightforward. I am currently doing a lot of research into what M$ can and can't due in these circumstances. The law is convoluted and the Circuits have differing views on what can go on. It frustrates me to no end how corporations disregard the law. I graduate from law school next May so this has gotten me interested in an area of law I once thought was boring.

TOS and EULA aren't bulletproof and most clauses can be disregarded to uneven bargaining power. I mean some EULA and TOS can be lumped under deceptive business practices when you consider how the product was marketed.

If people don't already know it is illegal to modify someones data on their system without there permission so what Microsoft did by disabling features and the ability to move the hard drive to another system was illegal. They could be criminally charged in the same way a person who wrote a virus and sent it to other computers to modify data would be. Creating a piece of software to modify data on a system and putting it on peoples systems without the persons knowing is pretty much the definition of a virus and many people have been put in prison for that.

PS. If an individual did the same thing and was found out they would go to jail.

PPS. If when you logged onto Xbox Live it had a message that data was going to be modified on your console and said what was being changed and gave you the option of refusing it then it would have been legal since you would have been told and given a choice.

Honestly is M$ wanted to save face, they should of temp banned the consoles with a simple (fix your shit and you can come back on live" message.

I specifically went out and got a 120 gig hdd to replace my 20gig drive PURELY because of the "play games off your hdd" feature.

For a mod I did to my console and not the hdd. I lost the ability.

I only have minor law training, but I do think M$ could get themselves pretty deep in shit for the code modifying.

A good example of this is with windows. Unless you failed at cracking the activaty counter. The worse thing that happens is you are not able to update your windows any more once they prove its a stolen copy.

If M$ were to release an update that would brick every pc with a stolen copy of windows on it. You don't think law suits would be flying? (I realize you could reinstall and fix this, but don't argue that dumbass side of things, you know where I'm coming from with this)

The simple fact ythey never tried that crap with windows proves they themselves know better. So to turn around and corrupt (yes i don't care how minor, a change is still coruption) to the original xbox is not allowed.

Same idea behind the fact that they can NOT force an update on you without asking first.
Forcing you to accept an update to play a new game which you know will screw with files and restrict your console is the same situation as them simply installing the update without asking.

Shawn

What do you think stripping the console of it's code signing rights is except a modification of the code on the console. They wrote a piece of software that did that and that software would be considered a virus since it got on your console without your permission and knowledge.

The updates you get are done with your permission since it says you need to update and unless it has changed since I last updated it is your choice to update and isn't forced upon you. (I know you can't play newer games without it but that is up to you)

PS. They don't have the right to revoke the signing rights on your console unless you give them permission to do so. No TOS allows someone to break the law and commit a criminal offense.

PPS. If they would have just disabled your access to the Live service then that would have been on their server and would have been no problem as long as they give prorated refunds to the people paying for Xbox Live that wanted them.

QUOTE(guenthar @ Nov 22 2009, 11:26 AM)

What do you think stripping the console of it's code signing rights is except a modification of the code on the console. They wrote a piece of software that did that and that software would be considered a virus since it got on your console without your permission and knowledge.

The updates you get are done with your permission since it says you need to update and unless it has changed since I last updated it is your choice to update and isn't forced upon you. (I know you can't play newer games without it but that is up to you)

PS. They don't have the right to revoke the signing rights on your console unless you give them permission to do so. No TOS allows someone to break the law and commit a criminal offense.

don't have the right?? sure they do.. you are LICENSED the signing rights on the console provided you abide by the TOS.. if you break that, they have the right to revoke your license.. no different than if powerdvd or some other PC app caught you spreading your key, they can revoke it...

you own the hardware, you do NOT own the software that runs on that hardware...M$ can make any changes to that software that they wish...

Like I said a TOS doesn't surpass the law and any part that violates law can be ignored and by law purposeful spreading of a virus is a crime. There are laws that prevent contracts from circumventing the law and it is good that it exists because that would be happening all the time.

PS. This is not the same as powerdvd revoking your key since they would be doing that in future updates which you "choose" to install which means that isn't a virus. If your key gets revoked for powerdvd then you just can't update which is similar to not having access to live but you would still be able to use the version you still have.

PPS. Please don't use things that can't even be compared to this situation as a argument. Revoking your key for a piece of software is like banning you from live. What Microsoft did would be like revoking your key and also sending you a virus to disable functionality in the software without your knowledge.

I agree. I am not understanding what the Terms of Use [service] has to do with unrelated features that are not a part of the service. You broke the terms of service, so now MS has the right to disable Windows Media Center and other features? Canceling your service is one thing, but they are crippling your system. If they cancel your service, the console should work just as it did before you agreed to the ToU. It does not. In fact, they don't even cancel your service. They just cripple (not just block) the system you are using. How is that in their right?

I know their claim is that the ToS gave them rights to modify the hardware and software associated with the service. I just don't think anybody knew that their right extended to crippling unrelated features or functionality unrelated to the service. Under this agreement, you even unknowingly gave them the right to fry your console if they wanted to. I just don't know how this will fly legally.

PS I don't have a modded console.

everyone fails to realize that they banned the hardware, and all that should have happened was the account that you aggred to the TOS should have been banned. They disabled the my hardware from connecting and my TOS was signed about the account.

QUOTE(cilo911 @ Nov 24 2009, 08:04 AM)

Possession is 9/10 of the law everything in that box is yours when u left the store

thats like saying that copy of Taken on blu ray i bought isnt mine and they can come take it off me when they want

or my microwave isnt mine and they could come take it from me cuz i rigged it to work with the door open

or ky can take my jelly from me cuz i'm using it the wrong way

or how about this i modded my lights in my Scion so now the dealership is coming for me

oh no i unlocked my Iphone be afraid people bricking codes r coming on the next update

cant wait to read a response lol

don't be a smart ass. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grr.gif) you don't modd your console to look nice but to play backups. your examples don't aply because what you altered was software not hardware. and M$ didn't mess with your console or your hdd, it's exactly untouched. They remove software features because you violate the terms of agreement, that's applicable to any software you owe.

you never own software (go back and read it again an again), just a licence to use it and according to the terms you agree when you started using it.

you're just dumb playing smart. Sorry but it's true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

pay for an antivirus license and then put the code online an see what happens.

This post has been edited by joaoxbox360: Yesterday, 09:18 AM

what software says and what rights u have as a person is 2 different things

how many times have u seen laws inplace and then changed to suit the people

get enough angry people and u have the power to do anything

this dude probably hasnt been on earth too long since u doesntr know his ass from a hole in the ground, get outside and see whats going on out there and maybe watch some news....

We the people run the country not the law or the companies they change there ways to suit us when we get mad now go google something and stfu

FYI i never modded my dash so y do theyu get the right to change my dash

oh yeah i never got banned i'm just speaking for the ton of people that did.....

There is nothing in copyright law that allows a company to change data on your system. By you just owning a license to the software it allows them to make a TOS/EULA that says they can do that but a TOS/EULA is a contract and has to abide by laws.

PS. Microsoft has never done anything like the "black screen" you mentioned as a counter measure to stop pirated versions of Windows from working. The only thing they have done is create "Windows Genuine Advantage" which if it detects your Windows installation as a not legal copy it won't let you download updates (other then security updates) and puts an image on your desktop saying that the Windows version isn't a legal copy of Windows. I would know about any kind of anti-piracy measure that stopped Windows from working since I repair computers all the time and keep up with this kind of thing. We actually had to repair a computer that had the "Windows Genuine Advantage" warning on their desktop just a few days ago.

PPS. Copyright law only protects the copyright holder from copyright infringement and doesn't give the copyright holder the rights to modify or destroy the product while in the possession of the license holder. Since the license holder doesn't own the product the copyright holder can create a contract that the licensee has to abide by in order to use the product. In the contact the copyright holder can say that the licensee can't modify the product or use it in a matter not covered by the contract. If a person violates the terms of the contract their license to the product can be revoked. If the license is revoked the continued possession of the product would constitute copyright infringement. With continued possession of the product the copyright holder has the right to pursue a law suit against the copyright infringer.

The above is what a copyright holder can do and they cannot go into your system and disable your use of the system. They can't do that because it says what their rights are in the situation right within copyright law and also they have to abide by the laws.

PPPS. If you want to continue to argue then read copyright law and show proof of your argument and try to prove me wrong rather then just trying to put your opinion forth as fact. If you show me something that is proof then I will quote from law with links directly to the quote to disprove you.

EDIT: They don't have the right to change your dash but they can revoke your license if in their TOS it says the software can't be used on a modified console or on anything not covered by the TOS. At that time if you stay in possession of the console you would be committing copyright infringement and then they have the right to sue you.

This post has been edited by guenthar: Yesterday, 03:59 PM

QUOTE(cilo911 @ Nov 24 2009, 04:30 PM)

We the people run the country not the law or the companies they change there ways to suit us when we get mad now go google something and stfu

I may only be 19 but I know thats not true

People don't rule , Thats not really how Democracy works. Leaders make decision without the peoples backing all the time ( Generally most wars , IRAQ was hugely contested in uk and kind of in the us as well . Still happen , no nuclear bombs found )

When the mob have there way things go wrong , everyone want better houses , live without their means . Huge economic crisis

pirates are in the minority in this case and you don't have many things on your side , a few hundred angry thiefs isn't best backing

QUOTE(cilo911 @ Nov 24 2009, 04:30 PM)

what software says and what rights u have as a person is 2 different things

how many times have u seen laws inplace and then changed to suit the people

get enough angry people and u have the power to do anything

this dude probably hasnt been on earth too long since u doesntr know his ass from a hole in the ground, get outside and see whats going on out there and maybe watch some news....
We the people run the country not the law or the companies they change there ways to suit us when we get mad now go google something and stfu

FYI i never modded my dash so y do theyu get the right to change my dash

oh yeah i never got banned i'm just speaking for the ton of people that did.....

how is the weather over there in Cuba? it must be nice!

VIVA LA REVOLUTION, PATRIA O MUERTE

Micothugs can get away with copying every operating system that Apple does and makes BILLIONS! And now they are copying their stores. Screw MS!

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 19 2009, 07:43 PM)

sorry but am not wrong.. a link to an article about someone filing a complaint doesn't make me wrong or make it legal.
They Have exclusive rights to everything involving the respective sports.. even down to images(pictures of players) and their voice. Has nothing to do with money or power and everything to do with copyright laws.
Are they concerned with you giving a play by play to a buddy?? no, but if you try to broadcast that play by play and turn a profit, they can and will come down hard...
and again, if you do a little research you are 100% wrong.. Dishnetwork was notorious for corrupting the tsop in their recievers via ECM when they detected an illegal card.

Microsoft has EVERY right to corrupt your profile and saves that you obtained on a illegally modified console, most likely on pirated software. What you are arguing is like trying to argue that if you rob a bank you still have the right to keep the stuff you bought with the money you stole..lol

is it retaliation?? could be, but that is in their right..as long as they are not harming you physically
Peopl;e whining are acting like it is some crime that M$ wants to make money or turn a profit. Thats is their ENTIRE sole purpose. They live and breath to make money...to me that whole thing just reeks of sour grapes...

**CRY** they corrupted my games saves when they caguht me being a pirate **CRY**

be thankful they are not suing

FYI by law they don't and for the record you are an idiot. The cards dishnetwork corrupted were legally there property as you had to in most cases reprogram their own cards to steal tv. I would advise you to not comment on things that you apparently have no experience with.

QUOTE(Darkelysium @ Nov 26 2009, 08:22 AM)

FYI by law they don't and for the record you are an idiot. The cards dishnetwork corrupted were legally there property as you had to in most cases reprogram their own cards to steal tv. I would advise you to not comment on things that you apparently have no experience with.

FYI they do.. M$ owns every scrap of code on a 360, down to the custom format on the HD, the custom format of game saves, etc..
guess what, game saves are signed by a Key that M$ owns.. if they revoke that key, and you try to move your data, ooops...your bad. Had you not moved it it wouldn't have corrupted. Had you not modded your 360, your key wouldn't have been revoked.

As has been pointed out repeatedly..
M$ never touched ANY of your code.. they revoked the key you need to SIGN the code because they caught you shafting them by modding your 360.
Or are you really going to try to argue that they don't have the right to revoke your key??

oh and another FYI.. Dishnetwork corrupted the code on those cards... same as Microsoft, they removed a key in the Code they own...both were done at the detection of modified hardware/code (The firmware on the drive is also copyrighted and customized by M$)

flashing the drive is the same as reprogramming a card....in fact the principle behind the process is even very close to being identical

The feature OOTB argument falls flat as well...since if you took a update earlier this year, your features OOTB changed and you didn't complain then.

QUOTE(sgr215 @ Nov 19 2009, 05:48 AM)

Two facts people whining about the complaint need to be aware of:

2) In regards to the law, banning a console could be considered the same as banning your live account; depending on the judges interpretation. A console ban would effectively remove your ability to play on live unless you do one of two things;

a) Own more than one 360

Buy another 360

That's not a fact it is nonsense. Banning a live account means you can create another one on the same console in a different name. Banning a console prevents any account being made or used on live. They are two wholly different things.

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 26 2009, 05:01 AM)

FYI they do.. M$ owns every scrap of code on a 360, down to the custom format on the HD, the custom format of game saves, etc..
guess what, game saves are signed by a Key that M$ owns.. if they revoke that key, and you try to move your data, ooops...your bad. Had you not moved it it wouldn't have corrupted. Had you not modded your 360, your key wouldn't have been revoked.
As has been pointed out repeatedly..
M$ never touched ANY of your code.. they revoked the key you need to SIGN the code because they caught you shafting them by modding your 360.
Or are you really going to try to argue that they don't have the right to revoke your key??
oh and another FYI.. Dishnetwork corrupted the code on those cards... same as Microsoft, they removed a key in the Code they own...both were done at the detection of modified hardware/code (The firmware on the drive is also copyrighted and customized by M$)

flashing the drive is the same as reprogramming a card....in fact the principle behind the process is even very close to being identical

The feature OOTB argument falls flat as well...since if you took a update earlier this year, your features OOTB changed and you didn't complain then.

You sir are an idiot, And I free here on out refuse to respond to any of your simple minded and unfounded statements. If you were correct in this BS explain to me why M$ didnt jsut wipe the console? and don't tell me they were being nice. They knew they couldn't. this was there way of trying to sneak in under the law and stick it to the modders.

Personally I look at it this way, by going on xbox live you are promising Microsoft that you will in no way modify their console, code or anything else. By modifying your firmware to play stolen games you are violating that agreement. I think Microsoft is in their rights to do whatever they want since you have broken the agreement. The give and they shall take away, if disabling your consoles online ability and removing all the features their FREE updates have provided you is what it takes then so be it.

Taking legal action against a company that you are stealing from makes no sense. It would be like stealing a dvd from a store then trying to take it back because you dont like it and then getting mad when they report you to the cops.

QUOTE(gamemaster14 @ Nov 28 2009, 06:21 AM)

Personally I look at it this way, by going on xbox live you are promising Microsoft that you will in no way modify their console, code or anything else. By modifying your firmware to play stolen games you are violating that agreement. I think Microsoft is in their rights to do whatever they want since you have broken the agreement. The give and they shall take away, if disabling your consoles online ability and removing all the features their FREE updates have provided you is what it takes then so be it.

Taking legal action against a company that you are stealing from makes no sense. It would be like stealing a dvd from a store then trying to take it back because you dont like it and then getting mad when they report you to the cops.

QUOTE(cilo911 @ Nov 29 2009, 06:25 AM)

i have a retail copy of every game i own

Yeah...of course you do

QUOTE(gamemaster14 @ Nov 27 2009, 10:21 PM)

Personally I look at it this way, by going on xbox live you are promising Microsoft that you will in no way modify their console, code or anything else. By modifying your firmware to play stolen games you are violating that agreement. I think Microsoft is in their rights to do whatever they want since you have broken the agreement. The give and they shall take away, if disabling your consoles online ability and removing all the features their FREE updates have provided you is what it takes then so be it.

Taking legal action against a company that you are stealing from makes no sense. It would be like stealing a dvd from a store then trying to take it back because you dont like it and then getting mad when they report you to the cops.

some things to ponder -
1 - you are assuming that every console MS banned was in fact modded
2 - the "free" updates that MS puts out are put into the console to boost their revenue and to fix issues w/ their console.
3 - you are assuming that the 360 never does anything wrong - ie - scratching discs, rrod

MS is at much at fault as anybody else for the fuabar'd situation that they are in now. MS put a console that was from the beginning less than reliable in any sense of the word. the fact that MS has changed the warranty is an admittance to this as they knew a class action lawsuit would be coming for the overheating issue. it is only now, in theory, that the console is where it should have been from a product deployment standpoint - MS's numbers have been skewed since the beginning in their favor due to their failed design and numerous people buying numerous consoles. now that their design is finally up to the task of the actually working as promised w/ no fear of a class action on that front have they now gone forward w/ this massive banning of "supposed" modded consoles - only problem is that nothing is 100% accurate so there will be "collateral damage", even if 10%, that is too many. the latest numbers show that the general public is pretty fed up w/ MS methods and are going to different platforms. i am not condoning piracy in any fashion, it is that MS has a pretty bad track record of doing anything accurately and sufficiently.

Sony's drop in price and current ad campaign is perfect timing for them and the numbers are beginning to show it.

So if you went to a friends house and had your profile on a Memory Unit and played a few games but his console was banned. Then you went home and found your profile was corrupt and also the saves on your HDD (which you did not take) are also corrupted. So then you cannot use your profile or HDD saves etc. which also means you cannot play on live which you also payed for. You cannot use the profile as it will not show up, you cannot use the saves or even move them, even when using another profile. You lost countless hours (Fallout 3 for instance) and suffered, but your Console is not modded and you did nothing wrong.

You could also argue that their systems scratch discs, even without moving the console and Microsoft does not offer you any help in that area so you had no choice but to make backups rather that have the console destroy your games. Many people have children that jump up and down when playing games, or maybe they are autistic or handicapped in some way.

etc. etc.

C

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Xbox360 Forums => Xbox360 Online Gaming and other Services => Xbox360 LIVE => Topic started by: Xbox-Scene on November 18, 2009, 09:53:00 PM