Post by: Xbox-Scene on November 10, 2009, 04:19:00 PM
Rumour: Insider says MS Plans to Ban 1M Console Posted by XanTium | November 10 18:19 EST | News Category: Xbox360 |
| From pinoycosplay.blogspot.com: Quote
Note: This is just a rumour and there's no real way to check or confirm this kinda information. But it points out an interesting discussion, how many consoles do you think MS banned? The site claims 600k are banned already just in US and CA. If we know MS sold about 19M consoles in that region to-date it would mean they already banned about 3.16% of their user-base ... News-Source: pinoycosplay.blogspot.com |
Post by: Sunblood on November 10, 2009, 04:23:00 PM
Post by: haqtiq on November 10, 2009, 04:23:00 PM
To kill a huge number of the live customer base is crazy, but at the same time the logic is sound, and they ARE fighting the plague known as piracy. I can't say I like or dislike it, but I do know without a doubt that this is needed, more to make an example of people, and also reassurance for the legit customers.
So again.. make sure you log into live with the poisoned copy of MW2, get banned, save the rest of us.
You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.
Post by: siyrobbo on November 10, 2009, 04:26:00 PM
Post by: DiscoveryX360 on November 10, 2009, 04:29:00 PM
Post by: K1LLERHORNET on November 10, 2009, 04:30:00 PM
I'm not surprised they're dropping the ban hammer with full force.
This post has been edited by K1LLERHORNET: Nov 11 2009, 12:36 AM
Post by: Grim187 on November 10, 2009, 04:33:00 PM
Post by: octo on November 10, 2009, 04:36:00 PM
Post by: majik655 on November 10, 2009, 04:36:00 PM
QUOTE(Grim187 @ Nov 10 2009, 03:33 PM) 
More $
Yep exactly.
Post by: Narbo on November 10, 2009, 04:36:00 PM
Ballsy move on the part of M$. I suspect there is some deals behind the scene or M$ really wants to get the support of the DRM lovin' entertainment execs.
Post by: Ranger72 on November 10, 2009, 04:41:00 PM
QUOTE(haqtiq @ Nov 10 2009, 06:23 PM)
Not to be a dick, but I was born this way.. why dont 400k more people download that poisoned copy of MW2 and get this ban wave over ASAP!
To kill a huge number of the live customer base is crazy, but at the same time the logic is sound, and they ARE fighting the plague known as piracy. I can't say I like or dislike it, but I do know without a doubt that this is needed, more to make an example of people, and also reassurance for the legit customers.
So again.. make sure you log into live with the poisoned copy of MW2, get banned, save the rest of us.
You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.
This ban has little to do with MW2. Since they can now detect ALL backups then ANYONE playing backups will get hit by this ban before it is over.
Post by: MVPd on November 10, 2009, 04:41:00 PM
Post by: xpn on November 10, 2009, 04:54:00 PM
The fact is, everyone knew the risks, and most people are indeed stealing by downloading games, reading forum comments about people 'backing up games to protect their original copy' is 99.99% bull (and the last few topics regarding banned xboxes have proved this!). Most people mod their console to play pirate games !
Yes games are overpriced, yes Microsoft makes a cheep product that breaks after a few years, and yes the PS3 and Wii gives away a free online service whereas you must pay for live.. but we all know that and we still stick with Microsoft (myself included).
You can't bitch and wine when your xbox is banned or even broke after you have had so many games for free.
Post by: rastaman108037 on November 10, 2009, 04:54:00 PM
QUOTE(Ranger72 @ Nov 10 2009, 06:41 PM)
This ban has little to do with MW2. Since they can now detect ALL backups then ANYONE playing backups will get hit by this ban before it is over.
Also, he has some "holier than thou" notion that pirates are ruining our industry...or something. You can't pirate dlc or xbox live. They're just pining for more console sales. I'll switch to the PS3 if I'm banned again.
Though buying red ringed consoles for $40 and getting them repaired for free isn't too bad
Also it's definitely not just Modern Warfare 2. Some people played a total of two games before getting banned and they were stealthed perfectly. Figured this out after most of the people on a private tracker were banned.
Post by: deilzfcjk on November 10, 2009, 04:56:00 PM
Post by: simpull7 on November 10, 2009, 04:58:00 PM
Post by: acidover on November 10, 2009, 05:03:00 PM
I spend a small fortune on genuine games for both, always buying 360 over my PS3, but now with so little between the consoles anyway, i think i'll be supporting my PS3.
I understand m$ position, however is now really the right time for them to be so aggressive against fw users? They've not appeared to be 'that' bothered against us in the past. Is it possible they could be alienating some of their core users over to the other side?
I never play my modded console on xbox live. It's connected to live, but I have never gone online playing any back ups. It seems strange that they'd want to lose my gold membership fee which is only used to send a few messages to friends. Now they'll get nothing from me & future purchases will be for my PS3.
On a positive, it was great when it lasted.
Post by: amak1131 on November 10, 2009, 05:06:00 PM
This post has been edited by amak1131: Nov 11 2009, 01:19 AM
Post by: amak1131 on November 10, 2009, 05:18:00 PM
QUOTE(xpn @ Nov 10 2009, 04:54 PM)
and most people are indeed stealing by downloading games
Rofl, not sure what I wanna say. I'll just simply put that downloading a game is not equal to stealing. Even that short of a response is too dignified for that comment.
Looks like M$ was waiting and caught many of us with our pants down. Not too much to worry about, though. The modders always win and they will once again. I'm confident that c4eva will be releasing a big "f you!" to M$ soon enough:D
Post by: DiscoveryX360 on November 10, 2009, 05:23:00 PM
QUOTE(acidover @ Nov 10 2009, 07:03 PM)
This is a brave move. After being a total m$ fanboy, my modded 360 got banned this week. I still have an unmodded 360 & a ps3, but today I found myself buying the ps3 COD MW2. I would never have bought PS3 over 360 before.
I spend a small fortune on genuine games for both, always buying 360 over my PS3, but now with so little between the consoles anyway, i think i'll be supporting my PS3.
I understand m$ position, however is now really the right time for them to be so aggressive against fw users? They've not appeared to be 'that' bothered against us in the past. Is it possible they could be alienating some of their core users over to the other side?
I never play my modded console on xbox live. It's connected to live, but I have never gone online playing any back ups. It seems strange that they'd want to lose my gold membership fee which is only used to send a few messages to friends. Now they'll get nothing from me & future purchases will be for my PS3.
On a positive, it was great when it lasted.
oh no, you've been wronged so badly by microsoft poor you.
rofl.
Post by: azuziel on November 10, 2009, 05:24:00 PM
QUOTE(amak1131 @ Nov 10 2009, 07:18 PM)
Rofl, not sure what I wanna say. I'll just simply put that downloading a game is not equal to stealing. Even that short of a response is too dignified for that comment.
Looks like M$ was waiting and caught many of us with our pants down. Not too much to worry about, though. The modders always win and they will once again. I'm confident that c4eva will be releasing a big "f you!" to M$ soon enough:D
Ok tri-click
Doesn't suprise me they're aiming high.
Seems to me MS is almost so busy with live, they've forgotten the war on pirated copies of 7....
c4eva has alerady started the new fw (likely a week ago), within a few weeks, you'll all be back to giving e-bags on halo3.
Post by: pinkerton on November 10, 2009, 05:27:00 PM
All they seem to be doing is INCREASING the amount of modded boxes!!
Post by: The_Flash on November 10, 2009, 05:28:00 PM
QUOTE(xpn @ Nov 10 2009, 07:54 PM) 
You can't bitch and wine when your xbox is banned or even broke after you have had so many games for free.
Bitch & Wine is what I did this past Saturday night. I think you meant bitch and whine?
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
Post by: trentdadi on November 10, 2009, 05:31:00 PM
QUOTE(acidover @ Nov 11 2009, 01:03 AM)
This is a brave move. After being a total m$ fanboy, my modded 360 got banned this week. I still have an unmodded 360 & a ps3, but today I found myself buying the ps3 COD MW2. I would never have bought PS3 over 360 before.
I spend a small fortune on genuine games for both, always buying 360 over my PS3, but now with so little between the consoles anyway, i think i'll be supporting my PS3.
I understand m$ position, however is now really the right time for them to be so aggressive against fw users? They've not appeared to be 'that' bothered against us in the past. Is it possible they could be alienating some of their core users over to the other side?
I never play my modded console on xbox live. It's connected to live, but I have never gone online playing any back ups. It seems strange that they'd want to lose my gold membership fee which is only used to send a few messages to friends. Now they'll get nothing from me & future purchases will be for my PS3.
On a positive, it was great when it lasted.
Apparently now is the time if 600k people have really been banned so far. Think about it... the price of a new game is 60$. If all 600k of them people pirated one game, that would be a 36,000,000$ loss (Saying each person only pirated one game is being very kind, think how quickly it adds up if that 1 game turns into 10). Banning 3% of their customer's consoles is a loss they are probably plenty willing to take. They are only protecting themselves AND all the companies who develop games for their consoles. I personally applaud Microsoft for these bans.
This post has been edited by trentdadi: Nov 11 2009, 01:33 AM
Post by: kainy on November 10, 2009, 05:32:00 PM
If the information on the american xbox.com site is right, my console is banned too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ( the UK xbox.com says otherwise but... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )
QUOTE
Banning 3% of their customer's consoles is a loss they are probably plenty willing to take.
In my personal oppinion banning is not a loss, but a gain... We all think that M$ has no gain in banning us, 'cause we pay for Live, but there are more points of view. I'm proof for one of them.
Somewhere arround the banwave, I've decided to get a unmodded xbox 360, for sake of playing online undisturbed. Until recentrly I wasn't able to afford buying games. Now I can but this banwave was the catalist, that pointed me to that direction. So I decided to have a modded + original xbox 360 ( ps3? are you creazy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ), even when I wasn't banned ( still don't know if I am ). So now M$ not only kept me with paying for Live ( with not banning my account ), but made me give 213 pounds ( Elite 120gb + MW2 + Dragon Age Origins + Lego Batman + Pure + Black Wireless Controller = best Amazon.co.uk deal ever (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) for a second console.
So to summerize: All modded console give M$ 60$ for using Live. When M$ banns most of these consoles, they can hope that most of their owners are already addicted playing on Live, and that most of them are ready to buy another console which is a 200$ minimum gain. So if 1 of 4 people who got banned, buys a new console, M$ are on the clear with selling new console, rather than selling only Live, an plus that every new purchase brings with it a continued Live membership, so they sell new consoles + Live for the 1 of 4. If it comes to 2 of 4 and more... you do the math (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Yes there is the risk, where someone will migrate to PS3... but suckers are found all over the place (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) and they can be from the other 3 of 4.
Things people can do when banned:
- continue playing offline
- buy new console ( + $200+ for M$ + Live if they migrate to an original box )
- go to PS3
- kill themselves (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Well... just an theory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Offtopic: Could you point me to an certain way to know if I'm banned without connecting to Live with my console and without using the Repair Service?
This post has been edited by kainy: Nov 11 2009, 01:48 AM
Post by: bananaboi on November 10, 2009, 05:32:00 PM
Post by: Derfuhrer on November 10, 2009, 05:32:00 PM
Timing is perfect by MS as many great titles out before xmas...people will be buying new consoles now. Also MS must be seen by developers as actively doing something against piracy..this proves it!
Post by: Charbless on November 10, 2009, 05:34:00 PM
bumping console price up in uk
banning people and refusing to say why
discontinuing 60gb pro (even if under year warranty stores refuse these by ms orders)
If the 1million figure is correct which I would say it may even be low it would make sense eliminate the pre own market of old consoles and dont have to cover your 3 year for rrod so they dont have to deal with 1million plus consoles when they break.
Post by: CardnalSyn on November 10, 2009, 05:35:00 PM
QUOTE(haqtiq @ Nov 10 2009, 05:23 PM)
Not to be a dick, but I was born this way.. why dont 400k more people download that poisoned copy of MW2 and get this ban wave over ASAP!
To kill a huge number of the live customer base is crazy, but at the same time the logic is sound, and they ARE fighting the plague known as piracy. I can't say I like or dislike it, but I do know without a doubt that this is needed, more to make an example of people, and also reassurance for the legit customers.
So again.. make sure you log into live with the poisoned copy of MW2, get banned, save the rest of us.
You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.
Since you obviously haven't payed attention, its has nothing to do with one game. I haven't even played MW2 and haven't been on live since Aug and i still got banned. So while ur clowning people, please be advised that you are still at risk. As far as buying another 360, fuck it. Ill wait until all this stuff is sorted out and there is an undetectable firmware or whatever. Until then, ill still play backups, and if i want anything that badly (like MW2) ill buy it for PS3.
This post has been edited by CardnalSyn: Nov 11 2009, 01:35 AM
Post by: Halcyon-X12 on November 10, 2009, 05:37:00 PM
Post by: mitsu50 on November 10, 2009, 05:38:00 PM
Hitachi drive 1.51 FW
never played any early releases, thought all games were ok through abgx. Cant be 100% sure without checking the discs. one other console i modded is also banned. Waiting to here back on another concole up north. we are in Florida. The systems were working fine this past weekend....
Oh well, guess you take this chance once you crack it open.
Post by: kcfusion13 on November 10, 2009, 05:51:00 PM
Post by: azuziel on November 10, 2009, 05:52:00 PM
been a blast, off to ps3-scene
Post by: Mr N on November 10, 2009, 05:54:00 PM
QUOTE(Charbless @ Nov 11 2009, 01:34 AM)
Microsoft this year when it comes to 360 have turned in to right d**ks and have shown all they care about is profit.
bumping console price up in uk
banning people and refusing to say why
discontinuing 60gb pro (even if under year warranty stores refuse these by ms orders)
If the 1million figure is correct which I would say it may even be low it would make sense eliminate the pre own market of old consoles and dont have to cover your 3 year for rrod so they dont have to deal with 1million plus consoles when they break.
Microsoft is a publicly traded company, not some person. Their number one goal, as with any business of any kind, is profit.
The simple truth is that MS is banning people because people are pirating games. Most people with modded FW are downloading games illegally. Not only that, but some play early and post endings online and whatnot. What makes me laugh, though, is that people think MS can't detect firmware or so called "stealth backups".
Post by: pinkerton on November 10, 2009, 06:02:00 PM
QUOTE(azuziel @ Nov 11 2009, 12:52 AM)
been a blast, off to ps3-scene
Shame, PS3-scene hasnt been updated for months!
Post by: nozafuji1 on November 10, 2009, 06:03:00 PM
Post by: azuziel on November 10, 2009, 06:08:00 PM
QUOTE(pinkerton @ Nov 10 2009, 08:02 PM)
Shame, PS3-scene hasnt been updated for months!
LOL, that was a quick trip! Nah, I broke the TOS, fine. I get it. It's the "why" i broke the TOS that irks me. I will still re-mod, just for other reasons than I did originally. My PS3 will be my retail solution.
Post by: nozafuji1 on November 10, 2009, 06:08:00 PM
QUOTE(Charbless @ Nov 10 2009, 05:34 PM)
Microsoft this year when it comes to 360 have turned in to right d**ks and have shown all they care about is profit.
bumping console price up in uk
banning people and refusing to say why
discontinuing 60gb pro (even if under year warranty stores refuse these by ms orders)
If the 1million figure is correct which I would say it may even be low it would make sense eliminate the pre own market of old consoles and dont have to cover your 3 year for rrod so they dont have to deal with 1million plus consoles when they break.
You can't really fault Microsoft for doing what any business would do. Plain and simple people are stealing their product, and they're taking action to prevent it. The bottom line for any business is to make money. If you owned a store for example, and it was continually being broken into by thieves, would you just let it keep happening, or would you invest in some type of a security system?
Yeah, say what you want about Microsoft. They do run a pretty shitty business. Most of their products do suck. The Windows operating systems are always garbage, the 360 has the worst failure rate of any console I've ever seen, but at the end of the day that's no justification for stealing games and than complaining when Microsoft does something about it.
Post by: phistyle on November 10, 2009, 06:09:00 PM
QUOTE(Mr N @ Nov 10 2009, 06:54 PM)
Microsoft is a publicly traded company, not some person. Their number one goal, as with any business of any kind, is profit.
The simple truth is that MS is banning people because people are pirating games. Most people with modded FW are downloading games illegally. Not only that, but some play early and post endings online and whatnot. What makes me laugh, though, is that people think MS can't detect firmware or so called "stealth backups".
exactly...and the majority of people won't understand that concept that their goal is to make money...most of the bans threads you see on here is a bunch of posts of crybabies that don't know any better thinking microsoft is screwing them over when in fact they voided any warranty when they opened up their xbox and modded/flashed their console...microsoft have every right to do what it takes to protect its intellectual property...and just watch...this thread post count will jump up quick with people coming in here crying F**K MS and the like...wait for it....
Post by: kakaboy on November 10, 2009, 06:09:00 PM
If it is the improper use of ABGX or flaws in the program itself dont we need to sort that side of things out first ?
If we cant create decent stealthed rips then no point in even modding your console . Unless you want to play offline in that case you can use any of the older xtreme FW's , except for liteons off course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
This post has been edited by kakaboy: Nov 11 2009, 02:12 AM
Post by: skyliner99 on November 10, 2009, 06:14:00 PM
haha its all good tho.
-sky
Post by: azuziel on November 10, 2009, 06:16:00 PM
QUOTE(phistyle @ Nov 10 2009, 08:09 PM)
microsoft have every right to do what it takes to protect its intellectual property...
Short of breaking the law I'm sure you mean. I'm not crying over spilt milk at all. I get it. What I don't get, is why folks like yourself are here flying the dirty pirate flag, rubbing noses in it. couldnt be further form the truth. As I said, I modded my console to replace a backup of a game, I waited a YEAR for on pre-order only to have the POS scratch the shit out of it within the first 10 minutes I played it. Then their response is purchase another copy? like i said, no more whining. Done with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Post by: RedXIII70 on November 10, 2009, 06:16:00 PM
QUOTE(phistyle @ Nov 10 2009, 09:09 PM)
this thread post count will jump up quick with people coming in here crying F**K MS and the like...wait for it....
F**K MS and the like. At least I got Windows 7 for nothing. Am I right?
Post by: azuziel on November 10, 2009, 06:18:00 PM
QUOTE(RedXIII70 @ Nov 10 2009, 08:16 PM)
F**K MS and the like. At least I got Windows 7 for nothing. Am I right?
why though, that sucks too
Post by: pinkerton on November 10, 2009, 06:24:00 PM
QUOTE(skyliner99 @ Nov 11 2009, 01:14 AM)
M$ loses money on the consoles and makes it on games.
-sky
MS (and sony) started to make profit on the consoles along time ago, was only the first year or so they sold at a loss. They have been chipping at the costs since launch.
Post by: K1LLERHORNET on November 10, 2009, 06:26:00 PM
QUOTE(kcfusion13 @ Nov 11 2009, 12:51 AM)
The one way to see if it was the firmware is if people who ripped their own games were banned too.
People who ripped their own games via Kreon drive did get banned.
That's why i'm keeping my future console unmodded (for a while) - MS can somehow detect back-ups.
QUOTE(RedXIII70 @ Nov 11 2009, 01:16 AM)
F**K MS and the like. At least I got Windows 7 for nothing. Am I right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/muhaha.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
QUOTE(azuziel @ Nov 11 2009, 01:18 AM)
Apparently better than Vista.
Post by: vinny13 on November 10, 2009, 06:29:00 PM
Post by: pinkerton on November 10, 2009, 06:31:00 PM
QUOTE(vinny13 @ Nov 11 2009, 01:29 AM)
Would it be wise to reflash consoles back to origional if you aren't banned yet? Or should it just be left?
Probably makes no odds, your probably already flagged for a ban, just wait your turn
Post by: directx10.1 on November 10, 2009, 06:35:00 PM
Post by: K1LLERHORNET on November 10, 2009, 06:37:00 PM
QUOTE(vinny13 @ Nov 11 2009, 01:29 AM)
Would it be wise to reflash consoles back to origional if you aren't banned yet? Or should it just be left?
Check the status of your warranty on xbox.com.
Make your 360 RRoD & send it in for repair
QUOTE(directx10.1 @ Nov 11 2009, 01:35 AM)
are there even 1m modded consoles out there?
I don't think so.
I would have thought there were around 100k.
Post by: noobcube on November 10, 2009, 06:40:00 PM
I've heard this said many times before; it's just a cat and mouse game.
QUOTE(K1LLERHORNET)
People who ripped their own games via Kreon drive did get banned.
I've heard of people getting banned who played original Xbox 360 games with iXtreme firmware. I've even heard someone say they didn't play any games (only some arcade games from the HDD) and they got banned too.
QUOTE(K1LLERHORNET)
Check the status of your warranty on xbox.com.
Make your 360 RRoD & send it in for repair tongue.gif
Make your 360 RRoD & send it in for repair tongue.gif
Yeah, but many people can't do this..
This post has been edited by noobcube: Nov 11 2009, 02:43 AM
Post by: maxus on November 10, 2009, 06:47:00 PM
P.S. MICROSOFT IF YOU ARE HEARING, HOPE YOU ENJOY ALL THE MONEY THAT I SPENDED ON DLC/ARCADE GAMES/LIVE SUBSCRIPTION, cause it's over! The first console RROD, and this one was banned.. not planning buying another one sorry
HOWEVER
gran turismo 5, god of war 3, metal gear solid, uncharted 1 and 2, killzone, resistance and little big planet are calling for me.. mass effect 2, bioshock 2, halo reach are calling to but only offline :and for bf bad company online ps3! hmm I never had a playstation before maybe another price cut around march for ps3?
I feel like a oriental girl! mi loves playstation for long time
Microsoft are playing with NPD numbers! wonder who will win! and wonder were the 1,000,000 banned users will will go
This post has been edited by maxus: Nov 11 2009, 02:48 AM
Post by: M0t0rPen1s on November 10, 2009, 07:00:00 PM
Screw you Microsoft , Im going Home !!
Post by: CocoaPistolero on November 10, 2009, 07:02:00 PM
That's just too many paperweights. I wouldn't want to be responsible for that, even if that number was made up of pirates.
I ordered a used 360 off of eBay; figure if it RRoDs, I have the carefully removed warranty sticker from my banned one to slap on there and send it in.
But I also just dropped around $500 on Amazon for a PS3 and several games. I need to have a 360 to finish the legit games that I own but haven't played. But in many ways I consider myself as having defected to Sony.
I've said before, I was cool with the LIVE ban, but the crippling of my console makes me feel intensely bitter toward Microsoft. I've also never appreciated having to pay for LIVE to host P2P games off my and other people's broadband connections, or the overpriced addons like selling $150 hard drives when I can get one on Newegg for $50, or having to pay a ridiculous price for a WiFi adapter that should probably be more like $35.
I'm not in any way trying to "stick it to Microsoft" or get revenge, because I understand I'm just a drop in the bucket. I just figured if I'm going to go 100% legit I'm not going to do it with Microsoft.
Plus Demon's Souls looks likes fun man.
This post has been edited by CocoaPistolero: Nov 11 2009, 03:03 AM
Post by: Narbo on November 10, 2009, 07:06:00 PM
Selling it for $100 is nothing short of criminal.
Post by: Lecsi on November 10, 2009, 07:07:00 PM
Post by: evolancer276 on November 10, 2009, 07:07:00 PM
QUOTE(majik655 @ Nov 10 2009, 06:36 PM)
Yep exactly.
+2
Post by: realistichat on November 10, 2009, 07:09:00 PM
If not, then oh well it's been fun.
Post by: timstim on November 10, 2009, 07:16:00 PM
thats ok because im already playing on a new console that micrsoft bought me. so from now on its the banned console for backups and the new free console for XBL
Post by: rastaman108037 on November 10, 2009, 07:21:00 PM
QUOTE(trentdadi @ Nov 10 2009, 07:31 PM)
Apparently now is the time if 600k people have really been banned so far. Think about it... the price of a new game is 60$. If all 600k of them people pirated one game, that would be a 36,000,000$ loss (Saying each person only pirated one game is being very kind, think how quickly it adds up if that 1 game turns into 10). Banning 3% of their customer's consoles is a loss they are probably plenty willing to take. They are only protecting themselves AND all the companies who develop games for their consoles. I personally applaud Microsoft for these bans.
Woah ho ho, hold on there cowboy. You're making a broad assumption there. Could you guess what that is?
You're assuming that if games were not pirated they would be bought. A simple suggestion that some people would want to play the game so much that they'd buy it if they had to. Assuming as such is blatantly wrong. I personally would go out and find out what this "social life" thing is before I would pay for 90% of those games. Being banned has made me consider the PS3 option, purely out of spite. I'm one of many.
Post by: haqtiq on November 10, 2009, 07:28:00 PM
QUOTE(CardnalSyn @ Nov 11 2009, 01:35 AM)
Since you obviously haven't payed attention, its has nothing to do with one game. I haven't even played MW2 and haven't been on live since Aug and i still got banned. So while ur clowning people, please be advised that you are still at risk. As far as buying another 360, fuck it. Ill wait until all this stuff is sorted out and there is an undetectable firmware or whatever. Until then, ill still play backups, and if i want anything that badly (like MW2) ill buy it for PS3.
And since you didn't get the point of my post, I'll elaborate.
I'm not downing anyone, I am just stating my opinion on how to get this ban wave over as fast as possible, to save the rest of us from the impending death.
Now that said... I'm not scared of the ban wave, but like everyone else unbanned, I don't WANT to get banned.
Post by: noobcube on November 10, 2009, 07:28:00 PM
Post by: PerfectGun on November 10, 2009, 07:35:00 PM
CS rep's are nothing but script readers with very little information. They would not in any way shape or form tell them "we are shooting to get to a million bans". It does nothing for their job to say that and they are in no way involved with the banning of systems, they basically just play defense for the angry customers who call in.
Post by: STICKY_BUD on November 10, 2009, 07:41:00 PM
QUOTE(PerfectGun @ Nov 10 2009, 06:35 PM)
I'm calling BS on these number's and this article. The insider source is a CS rep? LOL
CS rep's are nothing but script readers with very little information. They would not in any way shape or form tell them "we are shooting to get to a million bans". It does nothing for their job to say that and they are in no way involved with the banning of systems, they basically just play defense for the angry customers who call in.
agreed - 5 pages of response is a bit overboard for a a Philipines blogger reporting on heresay from a phone bank csr who likes to talk and just happens to work for a service that has a contract with m$
Post by: PRiME2008 on November 10, 2009, 07:45:00 PM
I know plenty of people also would LOVE a modded console so they don't haft to ruin there originals all the time, but that's illegal too.
I also know people whom would love to get rid of dvds all together, all of these people are not pirates and pay MS money but just want more freedom on how they use there property, or should I say protect their property from damage etc..
Saying that I never buy a game till I play it first, you could say go rent it but renting is not cheap and hard here because of limited stock..
Anyway I question wether this mass banning will really benefit M$ at all as it just pushes certain groups to find new ways around it.
They are tossing millions of dollars in keeping their product expensive and exclusive while banning people but they should focus on getting the game prices down as low as possible, the royalties they take from them are just pathetic, here in NZ is $140NZD for COD6, and money doesn't go as far here either.
Post by: pseudomh83 on November 10, 2009, 07:48:00 PM
Post by: fatvince on November 10, 2009, 08:17:00 PM
QUOTE(siyrobbo @ Nov 11 2009, 12:26 AM)
i got banned. Just ordered a new elite and im never going to mod my console again. For me the 360 is only half a console without live
I have never been on live, and I enjoy the living shit out of my modded 360.
Post by: phistyle on November 10, 2009, 08:18:00 PM
Post by: fatvince on November 10, 2009, 08:22:00 PM
QUOTE(trentdadi @ Nov 11 2009, 01:31 AM)
Apparently now is the time if 600k people have really been banned so far. Think about it... the price of a new game is 60$. If all 600k of them people pirated one game, that would be a 36,000,000$ loss (Saying each person only pirated one game is being very kind, think how quickly it adds up if that 1 game turns into 10). Banning 3% of their customer's consoles is a loss they are probably plenty willing to take. They are only protecting themselves AND all the companies who develop games for their consoles. I personally applaud Microsoft for these bans.
You're not factoring the thousands or hundreds of thousands of 360's sold only because they could be modded. Like every other person in this thread who says they're going to get a PS3 instead.
Or myself, who would never have bought one could I not play backups. Never been on live, never wanted to, never going to.
Post by: Chemodile on November 10, 2009, 08:22:00 PM
Having said that, those numbers don't surprise me. Arcades are dirt cheap now and I'd be willing to bet that at least half of those banned users will go out and buy a new console, maybe several. That's not a bad turnover and it's money in the bank for Microsoft. Huge bans mean huge console sales and happy developers. It's a win/win and Microsoft knows it.
Post by: K1LLERHORNET on November 10, 2009, 08:27:00 PM
QUOTE(Narbo @ Nov 11 2009, 02:06 AM)
Regarding the Wifi adapter, I think it is possibly the biggest rip off ever. As someone who works with embedded networking products I can tell you the BOM (Bill of Materials) for that adapter is probably in the $10 range and I would not be surprised if I were overestimating it by several dollars.
Selling it for $100 is nothing short of criminal.
That figure looks right to me.
I read earlier that it costs around $5 to make the adapter, so $5-$10 seems right to me.
I seriously don't see how they justify charging this much.
QUOTE(timstim @ Nov 11 2009, 02:16 AM)
thats ok because im already playing on a new console that micrsoft bought me.
Do tell how MS bought you a new console
Post by: AllSewnUp on November 10, 2009, 08:37:00 PM
Sure I had a console or two get banned, but I bought them broken for like $30 a piece. Shoot I already sold my banned ones for $100 a piece locally.
Don't let bannings stop you. RISE ABOVE!
Post by: gizbug on November 10, 2009, 08:44:00 PM
QUOTE(AllSewnUp @ Nov 10 2009, 10:37 PM)
If you want to keep playing, but still stick it to Microsoft just buy used consoles.
Sure I had a console or two get banned, but I bought them broken for like $30 a piece. Shoot I already sold my banned ones for $100 a piece locally.
Don't let bannings stop you. RISE ABOVE!
Craigslist?
Post by: Artlover on November 10, 2009, 08:48:00 PM
QUOTE(Misterturtle @ Nov 10 2009, 06:22 PM)
But hopefully with c4eva's new firmware coming out they will never reach that number.
Yeah, right.
Every version of firmware released has been cocooned in this myth about stealth and safety and protecting the users. And every ban wave that comes along proves those claims to be utter bulls--t.
If anyone actually believes this new firmware is going to be ban-proof, then give me a call because I have a really nice bridge I'd like to sell you.
Props to c4eva for the firmware and keeping it updated for each new wave of games that comes out. But it is what it is, hacked firmware to allow backups to be played and that will never be safe.
QUOTE(bananaboi @ Nov 10 2009, 07:32 PM)
This is actually bad for Microsoft in the long run.. although many will buy another xbox, i bet most will just cancel their monthly membership with xbox live and stick with offline gaming
Which is exactly why MS has upped the ante and is resorting to corrupting user data and disabling non XBL functionality (and who knows what else) when they ban now.
QUOTE(nozafuji1 @ Nov 10 2009, 08:08 PM)
If you owned a store for example, and it was continually being broken into by thieves, would you just let it keep happening, or would you invest in some type of a security system?
Yes, a store owner is allowed to install a security system. No, a store owner is not allowed to booby-trap their store to kill anyone attempting to break in.
Personally, I don't give a damn about MS banning consoles or accounts. Perfectly with-in their legal right to do so. The problem is, that so many around here fail to grasp is, that MS has gone beyond what is legal and taken to vigilante tactics that violate numerous international internet & computer laws. IE: Corrupting user data & disabling NON XBL functionally on property that is not their's.
And while it is apparently mentioned in their TOS, it doesn't make it any more the legal (hey, if their TOS said they reserved the right to murder your mother, they can't come to your house, kill her and then wave their TOS at the police and be let go with no charges). Law comes first - various terms, conditions and provisions in the TOS are illegal - TOS is null & void.
QUOTE(nozafuji1 @ Nov 10 2009, 08:03 PM)
I think this is headed to a point where people are simply going to have to choose between backups or live.
That's the way it worked last console generation. And quite frankly, is the way it should have been since day one of this console generation.
Don't know why, but this console generation has been really messed up. Between the hackers going out of their way to dumb everything down so much that even a retarded monkey can mod a console, which has only served to drive piracy rates up which in turn is resulting in the hardcore backlash from the industry - to users that insist that they must go on live with a modded console...
None of this would be happening now if everyone hadn't decided to throw away the common sense rules of modding that we all had been following in every previous generation. Why on earth was there such a radical change in thinking among everyone this time? It leaves me wondering if there wasn't some world-wide pandemic of a stupidity virus that coincided with the 360's launch.It's a shame too, because it's really hurt the scene. It's brought piracy back into the spotlight and is showing that modding is more about widespread piracy for the masses then anything else. It's infuriating because after the Xbox1 & Game Cube, there was finally some progress being made in "proving" that modding wasn't about piracy (Xbox1) and that piracy wasn't effecting the industry (GC). All shot to s--t because of the incessant spoon feeding of every idiot and their dog this go 'round.
To that end, again, I don't care that MS is banning people. Glad to hear it. If you go on line with a modded console, you deserve it. You're the ones ruining things for the rest of us. But I sure in hell don't condone MS for their illegal vigilatism either that is obviously driven purely by revenge and boosting 4thQ sales and not any legitimate attempt to stem piracy. What MS has resorted to is wrong & illegal. Plain and simple. Sony didn't get away with their extreme attempts to protect their intellectual property, and what they did was just a drop in a swimming pool compared to what MS is doing now. I'll be honestly surprised if they don't end up in a court somewhere by the end of the year because of it. It's not as if MS doesn't have alternate legal options available to them they could use. All MS had to do was stick to them. They didn't so they deserve to get their asses handed to them over this, just as Sony did.
Post by: dokworm on November 10, 2009, 08:58:00 PM
Surprised they are disabling game installs etc. that is legally risky, I guess they are counting on anyone being to scared to challenge them on it.
Post by: hollowtip on November 10, 2009, 09:02:00 PM
QUOTE(Artlover @ Nov 10 2009, 07:48 PM)
Yeah, right.
Every version of firmware released has been cocooned in this myth about stealth and safety and protecting the users. And every ban wave that comes along proves those claims to be utter bulls--t.
If anyone actually believes this new firmware is going to be ban-proof, then give me a call because I have a really nice bridge I'd like to sell you.
Props to c4eva for the firmware and keeping it updated for each new wave of games that comes out. But it is what it is, hacked firmware to allow backups to be played and that will never be safe.
Which is exactly why MS has upped the ante and is resorting to corrupting user data and disabling non XBL functionality (and who knows what else) when they ban now.
Yes, a store owner is allowed to install a security system. No, a store owner is not allowed to booby-trap their store to kill anyone attempting to break in.
Last time I checked, being banned on live doesn't also cause the offender to be murdered or killed in anyway. Also, nothing has been proven that MS collects personal information from a console. They corrupt your profile achievements. So what? Nothing personal is lost and your identity is not being compromised or exploited. Legally, you could be right, but good luck having convincing any court that Live achievements are worth its time in a struggling global economy.
Post by: cvdd1234 on November 10, 2009, 09:12:00 PM
Post by: K1LLERHORNET on November 10, 2009, 09:44:00 PM
QUOTE(cvdd1234 @ Nov 11 2009, 04:12 AM)
the moral of the story is, dont buy elites, only buy arcades if you're going to mod, then hack the hd.
I'm gonna be buying an Elite soon to replace my banned console - but that's only because the console works out cheaper than an Arcade once you sell everything you don't need, ie. HDD, crap games, controller...
I just hope I don't get the new un hackable Liteon :S
I'd like the option of flashing my firmware even though I don't intend to.
Post by: echto on November 10, 2009, 09:44:00 PM
QUOTE
Note: This is just a rumour and there's no real way to check or confirm this kinda information. But it points out an interesting discussion, how many consoles do you think MS banned? The site claims 600k are banned already just in US and CA. If we know MS sold about 19M consoles in that region to-date it would mean they already banned about 3.16% of their user-base ...
Here is one way of looking at it.
96.84% buy games, 3.16% play pirated games.
Yep, piracy is killing the industry.
I believe that like I believe the record companies and their whinings.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
This post has been edited by echto: Nov 11 2009, 05:45 AM
Post by: DemisesAngel on November 10, 2009, 09:57:00 PM
QUOTE(kainy @ Nov 10 2009, 07:32 PM)
Almost every modded console from our little comunity was banned...
If the information on the american xbox.com site is right, my console is banned too ( the UK xbox.com says otherwise but... )
In my personal oppinion banning is not a loss, but a gain... We all think that M$ has no gain in banning us, 'cause we pay for Live, but there are more points of view. I'm proof for one of them.
Somewhere arround the banwave, I've decided to get a unmodded xbox 360, for sake of playing online undisturbed. Until recentrly I wasn't able to afford buying games. Now I can but this banwave was the catalist, that pointed me to that direction. So I decided to have a modded + original xbox 360 ( ps3? are you creazy ), even when I wasn't banned ( still don't know if I am ). So now M$ not only kept me with paying for Live ( with not banning my account ), but made me give 213 pounds ( Elite 120gb + MW2 + Dragon Age Origins + Lego Batman + Pure + Black Wireless Controller = best Amazon.co.uk deal ever ) for a second console.
So to summerize: All modded console give M$ 60$ for using Live. When M$ banns most of these consoles, they can hope that most of their owners are already addicted playing on Live, and that most of them are ready to buy another console which is a 200$ minimum gain. So if 1 of 4 people who got banned, buys a new console, M$ are on the clear with selling new console, rather than selling only Live, an plus that every new purchase brings with it a continued Live membership, so they sell new consoles + Live for the 1 of 4. If it comes to 2 of 4 and more... you do the math
Yes there is the risk, where someone will migrate to PS3... but suckers are found all over the place and they can be from the other 3 of 4.
Things people can do when banned:
- continue playing offline
- buy new console ( + $200+ for M$ + Live if they migrate to an original box )
- go to PS3
- kill themselves
Well... just an theory
Offtopic: Could you point me to an certain way to know if I'm banned without connecting to Live with my console and without using the Repair Service?
If the information on the american xbox.com site is right, my console is banned too
( the UK xbox.com says otherwise but... )In my personal oppinion banning is not a loss, but a gain... We all think that M$ has no gain in banning us, 'cause we pay for Live, but there are more points of view. I'm proof for one of them.
Somewhere arround the banwave, I've decided to get a unmodded xbox 360, for sake of playing online undisturbed. Until recentrly I wasn't able to afford buying games. Now I can but this banwave was the catalist, that pointed me to that direction. So I decided to have a modded + original xbox 360 ( ps3? are you creazy
), even when I wasn't banned ( still don't know if I am ). So now M$ not only kept me with paying for Live ( with not banning my account ), but made me give 213 pounds ( Elite 120gb + MW2 + Dragon Age Origins + Lego Batman + Pure + Black Wireless Controller = best Amazon.co.uk deal ever ) for a second console.So to summerize: All modded console give M$ 60$ for using Live. When M$ banns most of these consoles, they can hope that most of their owners are already addicted playing on Live, and that most of them are ready to buy another console which is a 200$ minimum gain. So if 1 of 4 people who got banned, buys a new console, M$ are on the clear with selling new console, rather than selling only Live, an plus that every new purchase brings with it a continued Live membership, so they sell new consoles + Live for the 1 of 4. If it comes to 2 of 4 and more... you do the math
Yes there is the risk, where someone will migrate to PS3... but suckers are found all over the place
and they can be from the other 3 of 4.Things people can do when banned:
- continue playing offline
- buy new console ( + $200+ for M$ + Live if they migrate to an original box )
- go to PS3
- kill themselves
Well... just an theory
Offtopic: Could you point me to an certain way to know if I'm banned without connecting to Live with my console and without using the Repair Service?
Completely agree. There are shit ton of people that play on live and are addicted to it. We all know Leaf, XBConnect and XLink Kai suck! If people want to play on LIVE they will need a console (HDD or Memory Card) and the original game. Since most are banned now, they will buy a new console (199.99) and the game to play it online (60.00). Simple math, $260.00 +/- a few dollars. They will always continue to fight piracy and find more ways to ban the next f/w because it will help them ban more people and possibly make them get another XBox.
People love their XBox Live. Plain and Simple.
QUOTE(echto @ Nov 10 2009, 11:44 PM)
Here is one way of looking at it.
96.84% buy games, 3.16% play pirated games.
Yep, piracy is killing the industry.
I believe that like I believe the record companies and their whinings.
Dude, exactly what I was thinking. Nice.
Post by: bubbafett4hire on November 10, 2009, 09:57:00 PM
Yes, Piracy sucks cause it's the developers who lose out not M$ but in the same respects didn't a lot of us see this coming in such high numbers as peoples abilty to want to play games before there buddy's do and break street dates for bragging rights also lead to this mass banning. I am sorry not trying be a dick , but if your going to throw red flags ups and draw attention to yourself by playing unreleased titles then your going to have bad things happening. Personally when you throw red flags up like playing before street date, internet rips, then post on known places dealing with system modification about how you 360 is modded and in your signature is your gamertag only asks M$ to pay more close attention to you. Not trying to say or start any crazy conspiracy theories but M$ knows what we know and read what we read.
For the masses who have modded firmware and swear up and down they don't play backups why the hell is your drive even modded.
Post by: kakaboy on November 10, 2009, 10:03:00 PM
QUOTE(Artlover @ Nov 11 2009, 02:48 PM)
Yeah, right.
Every version of firmware released has been cocooned in this myth about stealth and safety and protecting the users. And every ban wave that comes along proves those claims to be utter bulls--t.
If anyone actually believes this new firmware is going to be ban-proof, then give me a call because I have a really nice bridge I'd like to sell you.
Props to c4eva for the firmware and keeping it updated for each new wave of games that comes out. But it is what it is, hacked firmware to allow backups to be played and that will never be safe.
Which is exactly why MS has upped the ante and is resorting to corrupting user data and disabling non XBL functionality (and who knows what else) when they ban now.
Yes, a store owner is allowed to install a security system. No, a store owner is not allowed to booby-trap their store to kill anyone attempting to break in.
Personally, I don't give a damn about MS banning consoles or accounts. Perfectly with-in their legal right to do so. The problem is, that so many around here fail to grasp is, that MS has gone beyond what is legal and taken to vigilante tactics that violate numerous international internet & computer laws. IE: Corrupting user data & disabling NON XBL functionally on property that is not their's.
And while it is apparently mentioned in their TOS, it doesn't make it any more the legal (hey, if their TOS said they reserved the right to murder your mother, they can't come to your house, kill her and then wave their TOS at the police and be let go with no charges). Law comes first - various terms, conditions and provisions in the TOS are illegal - TOS is null & void.
That's the way it worked last console generation. And quite frankly, is the way it should have been since day one of this console generation.
Don't know why, but this console generation has been really messed up. Between the hackers going out of their way to dumb everything down so much that even a retarded monkey can mod a console, which has only served to drive piracy rates up which in turn is resulting in the hardcore backlash from the industry - to users that insist that they must go on live with a modded console...
None of this would be happening now if everyone hadn't decided to throw away the common sense rules of modding that we all had been following in every previous generation. Why on earth was there such a radical change in thinking among everyone this time? It leaves me wondering if there wasn't some world-wide pandemic of a stupidity virus that coincided with the 360's launch.It's a shame too, because it's really hurt the scene. It's brought piracy back into the spotlight and is showing that modding is more about widespread piracy for the masses then anything else. It's infuriating because after the Xbox1 & Game Cube, there was finally some progress being made in "proving" that modding wasn't about piracy (Xbox1) and that piracy wasn't effecting the industry (GC). All shot to s--t because of the incessant spoon feeding of every idiot and their dog this go 'round.
To that end, again, I don't care that MS is banning people. Glad to hear it. If you go on line with a modded console, you deserve it. You're the ones ruining things for the rest of us. But I sure in hell don't condone MS for their illegal vigilatism either that is obviously driven purely by revenge and boosting 4thQ sales and not any legitimate attempt to stem piracy. What MS has resorted to is wrong & illegal. Plain and simple. Sony didn't get away with their extreme attempts to protect their intellectual property, and what they did was just a drop in a swimming pool compared to what MS is doing now. I'll be honestly surprised if they don't end up in a court somewhere by the end of the year because of it. It's not as if MS doesn't have alternate legal options available to them they could use. All MS had to do was stick to them. They didn't so they deserve to get their asses handed to them over this, just as Sony did.
Finally someone telling like it is . Sick of all the cry babies .
Post by: DemisesAngel on November 10, 2009, 10:11:00 PM
I'm sorry, but banning and disabling functionality is completely within their rights. Comparing the two to murder? Are you kidding me? Get real.
Other than that, I pretty much agree to everything else you said.
Post by: xMaD on November 10, 2009, 10:23:00 PM
if you have a modded console and get banned well sorry but you knew the chance you took. if you did not get banned then congrats you lucked out .....for now.
some folks say its crazy to ban these people the money ms loses etc etc but considering most folks will just pick up a arcade 360 and even if only 25% buy a new console and they reach the 1million ban goal then 250,000 x $200=$50,000,000 and if that many buy new consoles its because of games then want to play on live.
so they will also purchase these games if they haven't already and that's what they are trying to do, force you to buy that keeps the exclusive games coming and that's even more $$$.its sounds like from the last firmware update ms turned hacked 360's into demo game models by basically stripping off all the good stuff and corrupting what they couldn't get rid off.the bad part is ... and this is the part that really sucks for peeps with modded consoles.... ms waits to do massive bans so your forced to play the waiting game.
every time you turn on your console while its plugged in to the internet you wonder if this is the day you will get banned.
i have nothing against people modding anything they own does not matter if its dvd/blu ray players, cell phones,consoles ..what ever.there is one thing to always remember ... this is a business plain and simple if they ( the powers that be) dont like it then they will try to stop it.
Post by: sazer on November 10, 2009, 10:40:00 PM
QUOTE(Artlover @ Nov 10 2009, 10:48 PM)
If anyone actually believes this new firmware is going to be ban-proof, then give me a call because I have a really nice bridge I'd like to sell you.
Can you tell me more about this bridge? Price, pics? PM me.
Thx
Post by: rd88elw on November 10, 2009, 10:51:00 PM
Post by: g8crapachino on November 10, 2009, 10:56:00 PM
Post by: unoriginal436 on November 10, 2009, 11:14:00 PM
QUOTE(trentdadi @ Nov 10 2009, 07:31 PM)
Apparently now is the time if 600k people have really been banned so far. Think about it... the price of a new game is 60$. If all 600k of them people pirated one game, that would be a 36,000,000$ loss (Saying each person only pirated one game is being very kind, think how quickly it adds up if that 1 game turns into 10). Banning 3% of their customer's consoles is a loss they are probably plenty willing to take. They are only protecting themselves AND all the companies who develop games for their consoles. I personally applaud Microsoft for these bans.
not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet, but do you really think all 600k of them would have actually bought the game if they couldnt pirate it? it seems more people pirate games because they cant afford them, so even if they were never pirated its money M$ would have never gotten anyways.
Post by: Mr_Milenko on November 10, 2009, 11:19:00 PM
First off, Sure I modded my Xbox to play "backups" ok my bad, I knew the risks, I knew I could get banned from live hell I knew one day I would get banned from Live. To all those people who claim the firmware isn't detectable.. Show me proof that the firmware isn't detectable, It's ment to be undetectable and to protect all of us greedy ass pirates and enable us to download and play over priced games before making an investment (I do buy the games I like to play online, shocking right..?) Sorry to pop your bubble but it's fucking Microsoft you know the multi-billion dollar company that pretty much runs the computer industry, the one with its operating system running on more then 50% of all computers on the planet. They will find you, you will get banned it's that simple.
Now here we go with whats NOT right about this whole process, I understand getting banned, but disabling my system completely and not allowing me to use software that I have purchased (DLC) on hardware that I paid for? Thats just wrong, I would fully understand it if the console wasn't able to utilise the features of a Gold Live account, i.e. Online Play, Gold Member demo's etc. But they are completely crippling my hardware because I've played a illegitimate copy, wich could have been a legitimate backup of my personal posession. If you buy a car and decide you want to change the stereo system or tint the windows or upgrade/modify your cars engine is OnStar going to stop the damn thing from running because they can? No. You're warranty may be void and you will have to fend for yourself if thats what was in your contract but the car wont be disabled, Microsoft's EULA doesnt mention anything about disabling key features of the console if it's found to be modified in any way, So technically Microsoft is violating certain rights of legitimate consumers even if the consumer has illegitimatly downloaded a copy of a game, or played a game early.
I'm rambling... I honestly don't know if any of that makes any sense to anyone.. I just needed to vent.. All replies to my rant are welcome
Post by: unoriginal436 on November 10, 2009, 11:34:00 PM
QUOTE(DemisesAngel @ Nov 11 2009, 12:11 AM)
@Artlover
I'm sorry, but banning and disabling functionality is completely within their rights. Comparing the two to murder? Are you kidding me? Get real.
Other than that, I pretty much agree to everything else you said.
It's actually not a bad comparison, hes not stressing that its as extreme as killing someone just that there are laws against murder and also laws against corrupting someones data on their own computer/360 or whatever.
Post by: evolution2147 on November 10, 2009, 11:35:00 PM
QUOTE(DemisesAngel @ Nov 11 2009, 06:11 AM)
@Artlover
I'm sorry, but banning and disabling functionality is completely within their rights. Comparing the two to murder? Are you kidding me? Get real.
Other than that, I pretty much agree to everything else you said.
How are they within their rights? When i buy a console i am not renting it from microsoft, it is 100% mine and if i want to open i can do so. Banning the console from playing with other people is one thing but disabling offline functions of it is just ridiculous and they are just trying to play god. That is why i just returned my console to walmart and told them it broke and they gave me a brand new one. Now its getting sent back to microsoft for them to deal with and I could care less about them.
Post by: djkneegrow on November 10, 2009, 11:38:00 PM
Also I do understand piracy and everything, but why is it ok for a video game store to sell used copies of games that the store is the only group who makes money from the sale, but having made a back up of a game you purchased is not alright. I am not claiming I have only back ups of my own games or that I really do only have back ups of my own games, but some people do only have back ups of their games. Nice to see selling games used at a store is totally fine and no money there goes back to developers or anything, but making a copy of something you paid $60 for is wrong. So not wrong to sell a game used at some place like Gamestop for $55, wow a whole $5 off new price what a deal, but trying to make sure your hard copy of a game lasts without getting beat up is wrong.
Post by: cvdd1234 on November 11, 2009, 12:16:00 AM
this is what i found on xbox forum
Our investigations are very thorough.
However if you PM Tatsu24 with your consoleID and serial number we will re-verify our investigation. Your console ID is located in System Settings>Console Settings>System Info
Before replying, please be sure that you:
1. Purchased your console brand new and unopened from a reputable retailer
2. No individual has ever handled the Xbox outside your direct physical supervision.
3. You have thoroughly reviewed the information and FAQ located at http://www.xbox.com/en-US/consoleban/
Please be aware that if our re-verification is correct, this could result in a permanent suspension of the Xbox LIVE accounts on this console, along with all associated licenses and gamerscore.
This post has been edited by cvdd1234: Nov 11 2009, 08:19 AM
Post by: NoZart on November 11, 2009, 12:36:00 AM
As many of you point out, when you buy a xbox, its yours. Thats perfectly right. But you do not own the SOFTWARE on that xbox, only a license to use it. And your license got killed the moment you opened the xbox. So switching of the HDD functionality is perfectly legal.
The same applies to savegames. The saves themselves are YOUR data. Microsoft is not allowed to destroy them. But that is NOT what they are doing. The merely rebuked the license to transfer your data to a different system. The savegames still work fine on the banned box.
And the gamerscore thing? are you so dependent on an arbitrary number next to your gamertag to enlargen your e-dick? Gamerscore was just invented to artificially add game-time to games otherwise not worthy playing through. Never wondered why some of the really bad games had very easy achievements?
So stop whining, format that 120 GB HDD and use it on your new box. There will be no lawsuit.
Especially in this console generation, where the number of consoles sold is the biggest marketing argument ever, M$ will ban every year to boost christmas sales. And c4eva can do what he wants, every one of his firmwares will get "hacked" by MS. Thats the nature of it. If we can hack MS, they can hack us.
I am happily waiting for c4eva releasing his next FW and will happily be reckless on live again. Until MS bans me again.
So what? 200€ (170 for the arcade and 30 for live) for one year of online play and all free games seems fair to me. Considering that one game cost up to 60 €, i am in the green after 4 Games. To all the "legit backup guys": yeah right, lol.
Post by: amble on November 11, 2009, 01:03:00 AM
Most individual who mod their own console, usually have a couple of consoles anyway (in my experience), and maybe one other 360 lying round. I bought legit games, and still did of the main titles. Because I couldn't rip them myself I used the releases from the net - things like Left 4 Dead and WAW etc. and just gave the retail to my brother for his console.
Either way, at some point we all had to buy a legit console, despite what we did to it. We all had to take out valid live subscriptions. We all had to pay for proprietary notebook HDD drives and WLAN adapters that were severely over priced.
At the end of the day, the console ban is fine, but disabling LIVE services isn't because we legitimately paid for live in my opinion. Indeed some of those banned will still have gold subs lasting into next year. I have a PS3 and I got MW2 for it yesterday and was playing online with it. The HDD feature shouldn't have been tampered with, that is just a 'fuck you' spit in the face. Most people would have just swallowed the console ban and got an arcade but now, with this - most people are more determined to fuck M$ over again; whether by defecting to Sony or working on new firmwares etc.
I can see activation of games being necessary over live soon, with a code on the manual etc.
I'll still keep it for offline games, but will purchase titles for the PS3 now like MW2 etc. and if they think I'm going to fork out for another console before I know it can be flashed then they are mistaken.
Post by: logicwatch on November 11, 2009, 01:04:00 AM
QUOTE(sazer @ Nov 11 2009, 05:40 AM)
Can you tell me more about this bridge? Price, pics? PM me.
Thx
LOL
Post by: SBEEZY on November 11, 2009, 01:09:00 AM
Update:
Another post has surfaced from said employee....
Quote:
"I will post in here and hope my identity is not compromised as I will get into severe trouble.
This is what i do. I am an Xbox Live checks manager and I am the guy who helps run through the data being sent to Xbox Live that has been flagged for banning and was also discussed a very long time ago of what will "bring down all modified Xboxs"
I myself have an Cbox that has been modified because i think it is a crime what they do charging so much when the games don't even cost Microsoft half of what they are getting. Anyway, we have found a way to read the firmware. The NXE update has allowed us to do a check on the current firmware installed on the dvd drive.
The reason this was not flagged was because the code was not active. As you might have heard it was discussed about a "self destruct" code embedded in the NXE update and even before that. This was that code it wasn't a self destruct code but actually a check that was done on all drives.
This check was begun when the update was to "prepare for the last.fm facebook and twitter" this in fact was the code sent out to begin checks on ALL Xboxs.
These checks would send us information on the firmware written to the drive not the exact kind but we did an extensive form of hash check on the drive and could actually find out if it was modified in any way.
This was particularly easy on the lite-on as it was actually manufactured to serve for this purpose as our testing model.
We will not ban all consoles at once and yes all information about you has been collected a long time ago.
We have THOUSANDS of Xboxs reporting bad checks meaning modified firmware. Not all people will be banned and all the bans are done at random times
Multiple checks have been done over this amount of time so we could assure the modified Xboxs were truly modified and not just returning corrupt data.
I am sorry i did not com forward with this information sooner but this information has been critical to the cat and mouse game
This check was also done back in the xtreme days if anyone remembers that when c4eva had to rewrite it to allow the checks to come back clean well this must be done again.
Sorry all for the bannings but it is a natural process and I wish you all luck and hope you do not get banned
If you do await the new firmware that is begin developed and cheers to you all you wanted to know it now you got it.
Post by: majinsoftware on November 11, 2009, 01:17:00 AM
QUOTE(SBEEZY @ Nov 11 2009, 10:09 AM)
hey i stumbled upon this on xecuters site
Update:
Another post has surfaced from said employee....
Quote:
"I will post in here and hope my identity is not compromised as I will get into severe trouble.
This is what i do. I am an Xbox Live checks manager and I am the guy who helps run through the data being sent to Xbox Live that has been flagged for banning and was also discussed a very long time ago of what will "bring down all modified Xboxs"
I myself have an Cbox that has been modified because i think it is a crime what they do charging so much when the games don't even cost Microsoft half of what they are getting. Anyway, we have found a way to read the firmware. The NXE update has allowed us to do a check on the current firmware installed on the dvd drive.
The reason this was not flagged was because the code was not active. As you might have heard it was discussed about a "self destruct" code embedded in the NXE update and even before that. This was that code it wasn't a self destruct code but actually a check that was done on all drives.
This check was begun when the update was to "prepare for the last.fm facebook and twitter" this in fact was the code sent out to begin checks on ALL Xboxs.
These checks would send us information on the firmware written to the drive not the exact kind but we did an extensive form of hash check on the drive and could actually find out if it was modified in any way.
This was particularly easy on the lite-on as it was actually manufactured to serve for this purpose as our testing model.
We will not ban all consoles at once and yes all information about you has been collected a long time ago.
We have THOUSANDS of Xboxs reporting bad checks meaning modified firmware. Not all people will be banned and all the bans are done at random times
Multiple checks have been done over this amount of time so we could assure the modified Xboxs were truly modified and not just returning corrupt data.
I am sorry i did not com forward with this information sooner but this information has been critical to the cat and mouse game
This check was also done back in the xtreme days if anyone remembers that when c4eva had to rewrite it to allow the checks to come back clean well this must be done again.
Sorry all for the bannings but it is a natural process and I wish you all luck and hope you do not get banned
If you do await the new firmware that is begin developed and cheers to you all you wanted to know it now you got it.
Biggest load of BS I've heard all week.
Post by: DiscoveryX360 on November 11, 2009, 01:24:00 AM
QUOTE(majinsoftware @ Nov 11 2009, 03:17 AM)
Biggest load of BS I've heard all week.
everything about that post makes sense and seems totally in line with what has been happening, from experience I will tell you that I haven't been banned officially on live, I was on yesterday for 8+ hours, been flagged for god knows how long lol and wasn't banned yesterday
They have been banning at random times it seems... Now can the info be totally fake in the sense that whoever posted it is not really a MS rep? Sure but the info there seems accurate.
Prolly bs sure, but he is very right about the random ban times.. My cousin hasn't been hit by the ban hammer yet either, he checked yesterday but we wont be getting on anymore.. MS has been collecting alot of info on everyone son, there's a reason for this huge banwave.. A sleeper undetectable info collection method seems to be the case.
"Multiple checks have been done over this amount of time so we could assure the modified Xboxs were truly modified and not just returning corrupt data."
I have also theorized this myself, people are getting checked on many many times before they drop the hammer on you, with the exception of NEW consoles being detected immediately after being flashed and banned on the spot since they have no reason not to ban those people right away, they seem to take their time with people that have been on the live system for a while before they unplug you.
I can see from your point of view as to why the info seems like total bs but I eerily see it as very plausible all things considered so far lol.
This post has been edited by DiscoveryX360: Nov 11 2009, 09:43 AM
Post by: Shinora on November 11, 2009, 01:27:00 AM
I mean, they're banning, what I think, the most loyal members of their society.
But, if 2/3 will get themself a new Xbox, that means that 400.000 Xbox's will be sold within the 4th Quarter. So I'm not suprised if Microsoft comes with a booming result in December or January.
Post by: majinsoftware on November 11, 2009, 01:39:00 AM
QUOTE(DiscoveryX360 @ Nov 11 2009, 10:24 AM)
everything about that post makes sense and seems totally in line with what has been happening, from experience I will tell you that I haven't been banned officially on live, I was on yesterday for 8+ hours, been flagged for god knows how long lol and wasn't banned yesterday
They have been banning at random times it seems... Now can the info be totally fake in the sense that whoever posted it is not really a MS rep? Sure but the info there seems accurate.
Prolly bs sure, but he is very right about the random ban times.. My cousin hasn't been hit by the ban hammer yet either, he checked yesterday but we wont be getting on anymore..
Iv been playing on live all of today, Not flagged with the online repair page. (which isnt even a way to tell that its so unreliable)
Also mentioning that the liteon was made to be detected is bs, This guy is using half truths to fool the un-informed. Yes the liteon has a new thing that can be checked but this is also in the benQ but not actively checked. Thats why spoofing between benQ and liteon is safe but not to other drives.
Theres alot of other things I could also point out that are only half truths in that post but it would be a waste of time. The noobs will just read the post and be like "I knew it and I said it MS wins f*ck C4Eva must work for them"
And completely ignore my post.
Finally iv mentioned it a few times and no ones seemed to care but ill say it one final time. The xbox cannot read the firmware off the dvd drive. Its impossible from a hardware point of view. I wont go into details but iv got a long post on one of the other threads all about it if you want more details.
Post by: amble on November 11, 2009, 01:44:00 AM
QUOTE(Shinora @ Nov 11 2009, 08:27 AM)
But, if 2/3 will get themself a new Xbox, that means that 400.000 Xbox's will be sold within the 4th Quarter. So I'm not suprised if Microsoft comes with a booming result in December or January.
But this assumes pirates again spent no money on arcade and DLC. Loads of people downloaded and paid for arcade games and new campaign modes etc. People will go out and buy arcade machines to get back on live, but this has to be measured against those who won't buy new xboxes, potential/average losses on DLC and arcade titles and cancelled/expired live subscriptions.
I think they'll be lucky to break even in all honesty, considering the amount of sustained live subscriptions rather than a one off cost of a console. It's certainly not black and white.
Post by: DiscoveryX360 on November 11, 2009, 01:48:00 AM
QUOTE(majinsoftware @ Nov 11 2009, 03:39 AM)
Iv been playing on live all of today, Not flagged with the online repair page. (which isnt even a way to tell that its so unreliable)
Also mentioning that the liteon was made to be detected is bs, This guy is using half truths to fool the un-informed. Yes the liteon has a new thing that can be checked but this is also in the benQ but not actively checked. Thats why spoofing between benQ and liteon is safe but not to other drives.
Theres alot of other things I could also point out that are only half truths in that post but it would be a waste of time. The noobs will just read the post and be like "I knew it and I said it MS wins f*ck C4Eva must work for them"
And completely ignore my post.
Finally iv mentioned it a few times and no ones seemed to care but ill say it one final time. The xbox cannot read the firmware off the dvd drive. Its impossible from a hardware point of view. I wont go into details but iv got a long post on one of the other threads all about it if you want more details.
I know bro, I totally believe that they can't see what FW you have for sure, but they found a way to get a response from the CFW to let them know that you DO in fact have a modified FW, but yes they can't detect it first hand imo.
I was also thinking they found a way to force a jitter response over 359 that sent them back auto corrected data of under 359 from IX, this being the way to indirectly tell that the FW was modified.
This post has been edited by DiscoveryX360: Nov 11 2009, 09:50 AM
Post by: MrGood on November 11, 2009, 02:11:00 AM
Post by: jdsony on November 11, 2009, 02:29:00 AM
I see it a few ways. I agree that a large number of those being banned wouldn't have bought many games, some may have only bought a 360 for the piracy factor, a fraction may have bought a PS3 instead if they couldn't get free games. Piracy does hurt the industry though they exaggerate a fair bit.
The last full-priced new game I bought was Halflife 2 for PC I think. Any games I bought since for Gamecube, Xbox, PC, or Xbox 360 were either slightly older and priced accordingly (under $40) or bargain priced to begin with. I bought a fair number of Live Arcade games and would buy many more. I started a Gamecube collection since the most i had to pay per game was $20. The pricing currently is out of hand. PC games are usually at least $10 cheaper and $20 -> $30 cheaper within a few months. I'm not poor by any means but I have plenty to spend my money on that justifying $60-70 (in Canada) just isn't worth especially considering the life of some games. Now if you are paying for Live too then the life of some games go up. Maybe I just need to get over it and think back to the days of Super Street Fighter 2 for SNES & Genesis selling new for close to $100 over 10 years ago.
Post by: siyrobbo on November 11, 2009, 02:40:00 AM
Post by: Kloud on November 11, 2009, 02:45:00 AM
QUOTE(siyrobbo @ Nov 11 2009, 03:40 AM)
Im glad MS are cracking down on hacked consoles. I hope this steers the scene more towards homebrew than piracy. I would give my left nut for XBMC-HD
Rofl you guys don't get it.
C4eva doesn't give a shit about Joe Pirate downloading and playing games. Him and his fellow coders write the firmware for their own reasons, we're just fortunate they share their work with us
Post by: antonio010 on November 11, 2009, 02:58:00 AM
Post by: theBearjew on November 11, 2009, 02:59:00 AM
Post by: antonio010 on November 11, 2009, 03:01:00 AM
QUOTE(theBearjew @ Nov 11 2009, 02:59 AM)
How do you check your warranty status on xbox.com i havent been on live for months now and would like to send it in for repair to get a new xbox if possible before i am banned
Register it at support.xbox.com. If the request goes through then you're ok. If you get an error code chances are you're flagged for termination.
Post by: huskerman99 on November 11, 2009, 03:21:00 AM
Post by: majinsoftware on November 11, 2009, 03:24:00 AM
QUOTE(antonio010 @ Nov 11 2009, 11:58 AM)
I've often wondered if MS could request a media check from the drive. If the drive responded with the MKM-001 code (verbatim) frequently, could be used to determine that the drive was modded.
Yes this is checked by ms but the firmware redirects the laser to check another part of the disk that has the info we want it to have.
Post by: PM5K on November 11, 2009, 03:35:00 AM
I'm going to take the word of the guy that can actually write the firmware, and not the people that can barely spell firmware.
Now it might be that in the future he'll come back and say he was wrong, that it somehow was detectable, but for now I'm going to take his word that it isn't.
Post by: Sin3xtreme on November 11, 2009, 03:39:00 AM
looks like somone is trying to replace profit lost due to rrod repairs
Post by: Flyaway on November 11, 2009, 03:51:00 AM
http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/8354166.stm
Post by: not2able on November 11, 2009, 03:54:00 AM
QUOTE(PM5K @ Nov 11 2009, 10:35 AM)
What annoys me about all of this are the people with five to ten posts that keep saying the firmware is detectable.
I'm going to take the word of the guy that can actually write the firmware, and not the people that can barely spell firmware.
Now it might be that in the future he'll come back and say he was wrong, that it somehow was detectable, but for now I'm going to take his word that it isn't.
What else could it be really ? Don't you think its a little naive to think the firmware hasn't been detected? This many banned at once? Not trying to patronise you...but....People being banned right after flash without playing a backup? All the signs are there, its pretty much obvious they have found a way to detect ixtreme.
I could easily believe the numbers are pretty damn big.....Amazing how they have got firmly one step ahead of modders...
Post by: majinsoftware on November 11, 2009, 04:00:00 AM
QUOTE(Sin3xtreme @ Nov 11 2009, 12:39 PM)
if you do the sums a possible 1 million consoles banned and the replacement costs.M$ stand to make a hell of a lot of money
looks like somone is trying to replace profit lost due to rrod repairs
Thats only if they are selling them for a profit.
Last time it was mentioned MS
lost money on the arcade.
Broken even with the pro
Made money on the elite.
But that was awhile ago.
QUOTE(not2able @ Nov 11 2009, 12:54 PM)
What else could it be really ? Don't you think its a little naive to think the firmware hasn't been detected? This many banned at once? Not trying to patronise you...but....People being banned right after flash without playing a backup? All the signs are there, its pretty much obvious they have found a way to detect ixtreme.
I could easily believe the numbers are pretty damn big.....Amazing how they have got firmly one step ahead of modders...
And this is what people say each year during the ban wave.
If you look at it in proportion I doubt this ban wave is any bigger then the last.
Its just there are alot more consoles out there modded so you will see more people getting banned.
And also it will only be the banned people coming to this forum. If your not banned yet you would have no way to even know there is a ban wave you would just play on like always.
Post by: ToBbErT on November 11, 2009, 04:10:00 AM
Post by: pinkerton on November 11, 2009, 04:11:00 AM
QUOTE(Flyaway @ Nov 11 2009, 10:51 AM)
"Industry figures suggest that piracy may cost the video game industry as much as £750m a year."
Usual BS, how the hell do they come up with these figures?? I believe if someone pirates a game they probably had no intention of buying it anyway, so whats lost? Obviously they shoudnt be pirating anyway, but these figures of lost sales are laughable.
Post by: Exobex on November 11, 2009, 04:35:00 AM
QUOTE(PM5K @ Nov 11 2009, 10:35 AM)
What annoys me about all of this are the people with five to ten posts that keep saying the firmware is detectable.
I'm going to take the word of the guy that can actually write the firmware, and not the people that can barely spell firmware.
Now it might be that in the future he'll come back and say he was wrong, that it somehow was detectable, but for now I'm going to take his word that it isn't.
Person A asks me if I can speak French, I'll say no. He tells his friends.
Next month I'll do a French course, and pass with flying colours.
Person B then asks me if I can speak French, I'll say yes. He tells his friends.
Does this mean that person A was bullshitting when he told his friends that I couldn't speak French? Was he even wrong?
In all probability MS COULDN'T detect the firmware back when it was released. Now they can. Effectively they've done their "detect modded firmware" course, and passed with flying colours.
QUOTE(pinkerton @ Nov 11 2009, 11:11 AM)
"Industry figures suggest that piracy may cost the video game industry as much as £750m a year."
Usual BS, how the hell do they come up with these figures?? I believe if someone pirates a game they probably had no intention of buying it anyway, so whats lost? Obviously they shoudnt be pirating anyway, but these figures of lost sales are laughable.
BS? Surely not? If one kid's got a modded box and a hundred copies for it, that's about £4,000 that the video game industry has lost. Because everyone's got four grand to spend on games, right?
Post by: PM5K on November 11, 2009, 05:58:00 AM
QUOTE(not2able @ Nov 11 2009, 05:54 AM) 
People being banned right after flash without playing a backup?
Which people?
I also have a hard time believing that this guy that supposedly works for Microsoft owns a modified 360, I mean how stupid could you be?
QUOTE(Exobex @ Nov 11 2009, 06:35 AM)
Person A asks me if I can speak French, I'll say no. He tells his friends.
Next month I'll do a French course, and pass with flying colours.
Person B then asks me if I can speak French, I'll say yes. He tells his friends.
Does this mean that person A was bullshitting when he told his friends that I couldn't speak French? Was he even wrong?
He didn't say they couldn't, he said they can't.
Post by: j3ll3 on November 11, 2009, 05:58:00 AM
heck even MS repair centre's send out refurbished console, that are banned.. (read xbox forums, they're investigating an unban for this console)
also if you are unrightfully banned, you can request an re-investigation.. but if they happen to do conclude again that you are modded, your account gets banned as well (from what the Xbox MS guys are saying over there)
pretty funny to read xbox forum > ban & suspension. its going nuts there... there was even a guy who thought he could get banned on a retail console again for using a wireless controller that was once used on a banned console
Post by: FawnTheGuyver on November 11, 2009, 06:20:00 AM
someone want go inside a Microsoft Center where the LIVE servers are and unban the console or how.
Mayby it would be possible to unban some of the Hardware problems but you cant go live when you go live the service check you serial no. or what ever and when it is ban then it will not let you inside like a MAC filter ( mayby it is the MAC ) so a unban is not possible. it is like you have a W-LAN and it is full opne but you secure it wit the exclude and include of a MAC adress.
And the ban come to the right time X-Mas when you got ban you have to buy a new one so Microsoft can say in 2010 we sold more consoles then Sony.
Post by: Murteira_Nabo on November 11, 2009, 06:21:00 AM
QUOTE(j3ll3 @ Nov 11 2009, 02:58 PM)
MS is hurting a lot of genuine players with this particular banning spree, it does seem f/w is giving back wrong values to the Xbox 360 even with original discs (may that be that they are unaware that the console has been modified)
heck even MS repair centre's send out refurbished console, that are banned.. (read xbox forums, they're investigating an unban for this console)
also if you are unrightfully banned, you can request an re-investigation.. but if they happen to do conclude again that you are modded, your account gets banned as well (from what the Xbox MS guys are saying over there)
pretty funny to read xbox forum > ban & suspension. its going nuts there... there was even a guy who thought he could get banned on a retail console again for using a wireless controller that was once used on a banned console
Link?
Post by: pingrr on November 11, 2009, 06:26:00 AM
QUOTE(trentdadi @ Nov 10 2009, 07:31 PM)
Apparently now is the time if 600k people have really been banned so far. Think about it... the price of a new game is 60$. If all 600k of them people pirated one game, that would be a 36,000,000$ loss (Saying each person only pirated one game is being very kind, think how quickly it adds up if that 1 game turns into 10). Banning 3% of their customer's consoles is a loss they are probably plenty willing to take. They are only protecting themselves AND all the companies who develop games for their consoles. I personally applaud Microsoft for these bans.
Your logic is flawed ms does not loose $60 for each pirated game. You are amusing that every game a pirate downloads is a game they would have bought if they had an unmodeed console. This is simply not true.
Post by: K1LLERHORNET on November 11, 2009, 06:35:00 AM
QUOTE(evolution2147 @ Nov 11 2009, 06:35 AM)
Now its getting sent back to microsoft for them to deal with and I could care less about them.
FFS, it's:
I couldn't care less about them.
Look:
Post by: not2able on November 11, 2009, 06:51:00 AM
QUOTE(majinsoftware @ Nov 11 2009, 11:00 AM)
And this is what people say each year during the ban wave.
If you look at it in proportion I doubt this ban wave is any bigger then the last.
Its just there are alot more consoles out there modded so you will see more people getting banned.
And also it will only be the banned people coming to this forum. If your not banned yet you would have no way to even know there is a ban wave you would just play on like always.
Out of 7 friends I know who have modded, 6 are banned...1 has a spoofed drive lite on?....the rest all ben q...all banned...This ban wave is a lot bigger then previous ones...They for sure, 100% in my mind have found a way to detect firmware...this has even made the news, people wouldn't just be playing on like always, im sure everyone who has modded has their ears close to the ground.
Post by: turkey_fiddler on November 11, 2009, 06:52:00 AM
and so was the ban hammer!!
and so was aids!
and xbox was my idea aswell
i wonder how much c4eva has actualy cost m$! 1 million consoles!!
hahahaha
long live c4eva
ive been banned 3 times since 2005 and yesterday they banned me again!!
they can take our console but they can never take our freedom!
im chatting crap now
Post by: K1LLERHORNET on November 11, 2009, 07:02:00 AM
QUOTE(NoZart @ Nov 11 2009, 07:36 AM)
So what? 200€ (170 for the arcade and 30 for live)
I think you overpaid
QUOTE(Exobex @ Nov 11 2009, 11:35 AM)
If one kid's got a modded box and a hundred copies for it, that's about £4,000 that the video game industry has lost. Because everyone's got four grand to spend on games, right?
^ Absolutely correct.
Take the game Avatar for example - anyone who is downloading that game would not go out & buy it if they had to. They would rent it at the most, not pay £40/$60 for it.
Same goes for other crap games people would play only because they can get them for free.
Post by: irnchriz on November 11, 2009, 07:22:00 AM
Like for one second Microsoft cares if the thieving pirates go else where.
Consider the contribution the pirates make:
They steal and share games
They get banned then trade in / return consoles and create issues for NEW customers buying pre-owned kit.
They reduce sales and increase pressure on Microsoft from publishers to stop piracy.
Lets face it, the thieves on here are just whining babies and are too poor to afford a PS3 or even games to play on it. Thats why they pirate games.
The ban wave does not hurt genuine customers or players. Just the pirates.
Piracy DOES affect sales. If someone really really wants a game and cannot get it through piracy they will buy it. If they can get it for free to play on their hacked console they won't buy it.
Post by: dangerpaki on November 11, 2009, 07:38:00 AM
QUOTE(haqtiq @ Nov 11 2009, 01:23 AM)
Not to be a dick, but I was born this way.. why dont 400k more people download that poisoned copy of MW2 and get this ban wave over ASAP!
To kill a huge number of the live customer base is crazy, but at the same time the logic is sound, and they ARE fighting the plague known as piracy. I can't say I like or dislike it, but I do know without a doubt that this is needed, more to make an example of people, and also reassurance for the legit customers.
So again.. make sure you log into live with the poisoned copy of MW2, get banned, save the rest of us.
You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.
Yeah but to be honest when I hear that they are hoping to reach a target ban. Then it starts sounding to me more and more as a commercial reason for banning rather than the so called ToS and so called instability that could be caused by modding. Here in Europe it's perfectly legal to have backups of your own game. And of course such a backup should be playable or otherwise it is useless. Now MS is not only denying this right but is also banning people who only have a modded firmware and haven't played a backup. It would be more honest of MS to say we have detected a modded firmware and you will not be able to play online unless you have the original firmware back on your drive. Now they make the complete console almost useless by removing other options while you have payed for the console and it is your machine. Just so they can sell more consoles.
QUOTE(xpn @ Nov 11 2009, 01:54 AM)
OK, so I walked into work this morning and all day have had to listen to people comment on their xbox 360 being banned last night when loading up Modern Warfare 2. Everyone knew the risks of what they were doing when they modded their console. Many times I have heard the 'The Firmware is undetectable' comment from people and laughed.
The fact is, everyone knew the risks, and most people are indeed stealing by downloading games, reading forum comments about people 'backing up games to protect their original copy' is 99.99% bull (and the last few topics regarding banned xboxes have proved this!). Most people mod their console to play pirate games !
Yes games are overpriced, yes Microsoft makes a cheep product that breaks after a few years, and yes the PS3 and Wii gives away a free online service whereas you must pay for live.. but we all know that and we still stick with Microsoft (myself included).
You can't bitch and wine when your xbox is banned or even broke after you have had so many games for free.
Got rid of my xbox a few months back and got myself a PS3. Best decision I ever made.
QUOTE(trentdadi @ Nov 11 2009, 02:31 AM)
Apparently now is the time if 600k people have really been banned so far. Think about it... the price of a new game is 60$. If all 600k of them people pirated one game, that would be a 36,000,000$ loss (Saying each person only pirated one game is being very kind, think how quickly it adds up if that 1 game turns into 10). Banning 3% of their customer's consoles is a loss they are probably plenty willing to take. They are only protecting themselves AND all the companies who develop games for their consoles. I personally applaud Microsoft for these bans.
I'll correct you a little on that if you don't mind.
You don't really think that it costs MS 60$ to produce each copy of a game right?!?!? You've got to be joking me. An average game takes about $15 million to make. Selling a copy for $60 means that after 250.000 games you have already equalled your costs.
Do you know how many Halo ODST games were sold in the first 24 hours??? --> 2 Million!!! The cost to press a DVD are mainly to have the first one made and pressed. After that in those ammounts these guys probably don't even pay 10 cents to get a DVD pressed. So these guys made over 100 million dollars of PROFIT in the first 24 hours after release of a game.
So everytime someone copies a Halo game they don't lose any money. Because you use your own DVD so even the costs for pressing the DVD aren't needed. And since they have already made profit in the first 24 hours it's bullshit to call it loss.
I am all against this ToS and copyright thing. If I buy a game then it is mine. If I download it, I download it using my own payed-for internet connection. Burn the game on my own payed-for DVD with my own payed-for DVD burner. Play it in my payed-for xbox.
Post by: irnchriz on November 11, 2009, 07:44:00 AM
Post by: manu_xl on November 11, 2009, 07:51:00 AM
Post by: RichMR2 on November 11, 2009, 07:53:00 AM
Most broke the law (I'm not so naive to believe no one here pirates games), a live ban is a pretty good punishment, it sure beats serving time or a damn hefty fine! If you are one of the few who have never downloaded a game you still broke the TOU which you agreed to, so what possible argument do you have?
Dislike Microsoft because they stop you doing something that you shouldn't be doing? I doubt they will miss you.
Post by: azuziel on November 11, 2009, 08:02:00 AM
QUOTE(majinsoftware @ Nov 11 2009, 03:39 AM)
Iv been playing on live all of today, Not flagged with the online repair page. (which isnt even a way to tell that its so unreliable)
You don't know what you're talking about sir. Yesterday morning I was able to submit a repair request. Got home, tried it again, and had service unavailable. I knew I was already banned, so signed in for confirmation.
Chances are your consoleID has already been flagged. I wish you the best though.
Edit: gf made me buy another used consoel for halo ffs. So now i have my backup unit, and my live unit. Chicks dig halo
. Still trading in 31 other titles in exchange for a ps3
Post by: royal88 on November 11, 2009, 08:06:00 AM
Judging by this latest dragnet - and how many have been snared - the pressure will be on them from all angles (specifically the gaming industry) to keep pirates at bay. This means answering the release of hacked firmware as well as putting the pressure on Lite-On R&D.
BTW, the initial post is a train wreck.
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 08:07:00 AM
QUOTE(trentdadi @ Nov 11 2009, 12:31 AM)
Apparently now is the time if 600k people have really been banned so far. Think about it... the price of a new game is 60$. If all 600k of them people pirated one game, that would be a 36,000,000$ loss (Saying each person only pirated one game is being very kind, think how quickly it adds up if that 1 game turns into 10). Banning 3% of their customer's consoles is a loss they are probably plenty willing to take. They are only protecting themselves AND all the companies who develop games for their consoles. I personally applaud Microsoft for these bans.
It's only '36,000,000$' if everyone would have paid for the game if they couldn't pirate it. If only 10% of people would have paid then the 'loss' is dramatically reduced. Some people simply can't afford all the games, and therefore if no FW existed, they simply wouldn't buy or play the games. If you were an artist and you created something that you wanted people to use/see, would you prefer someone who couldn't afford it to simply not use/see it? I don't think many artists would.
I know you'll all cry about this comment, but it is pretty water-tight.
Cheers,
mhouldey
Post by: azuziel on November 11, 2009, 08:12:00 AM
QUOTE(mhouldey @ Nov 11 2009, 10:07 AM)
If you were an artist and you created something that you wanted people to use/see, would you prefer someone who couldn't afford it to simply not use/see it? I don't think many artists would.
I know you'll all cry about this comment, but it is pretty water-tight.
Cheers,
mhouldey
Well said. I'm sure others may rip it apart, but I see your point. I even agree. Good angle.
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 08:21:00 AM
QUOTE(noobcube @ Nov 11 2009, 01:40 AM)
Microsoft probably monitors Xbox 360 modding forums like xbox-scene, 360mods, etc. They can download and examine all the hacked firmware and modding tools that we use. When iXtreme LT comes out, what will stop them from downloading it, examining it, then finding out a way to detect it and continue banning consoles each year before Christmas?
I've heard this said many times before; it's just a cat and mouse game.
I've heard of people getting banned who played original Xbox 360 games with iXtreme firmware. I've even heard someone say they didn't play any games (only some arcade games from the HDD) and they got banned too.
Yeah, but many people can't do this..
Firstly, you state this as thought it is an original thought. OBVIOUSLY MS has plenty of consoles in the office running iXtreme. OBVIOUSLY they can download LT and try to find holes. The thing is though, if you make a FW with no holes, then it doesn't matter if someone downloads it and looks for holes all year long.
Also, say it took MS one year to find a hole in LT and mass-ban, that's still only one console a year a pirate has to buy. By the time next year comes around, consoles will be even cheaper. I think all pirates will be happy buying 1 console per year if they pirate 20 games per year. It's still incredibly economical.
The only reason people are worried currently is because as it stands it looks like bans will happen constantly until LT is released. They aren't worried about buying a new console and having to mod it. Most aren't anyway, imo.
Post by: amble on November 11, 2009, 08:23:00 AM
QUOTE(dangerpaki @ Nov 11 2009, 02:38 PM)
I am all against this ToS and copyright thing. If I buy a game then it is mine. If I download it, I download it using my own payed-for internet connection. Burn the game on my own payed-for DVD with my own payed-for DVD burner. Play it in my payed-for xbox.
How do the game developers get paid though? For instance, if everyone pirated Halo 2, and only few people bought retails, then Halo 3 probably wouldn't have seen the light of day.
As for the whole issue, it's the same as movies and music. Shoddy DRM that prevents digital distribution. Plus they also need to cater for the 'offline' market.
However, having said that not every game downloaded would be bought by pirates so the 'potential losses' are nowhere near the estimates. How many games have been ripped and downloaded that saw the bin after ten minutes or were never played again? The problem in pirating is simply those offering the service to mod other xboxes and sell copied games. The actual number of people doing this for themselves would be relatively low.
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 08:28:00 AM
QUOTE(Narbo @ Nov 11 2009, 02:06 AM)
Regarding the Wifi adapter, I think it is possibly the biggest rip off ever. As someone who works with embedded networking products I can tell you the BOM (Bill of Materials) for that adapter is probably in the $10 range and I would not be surprised if I were overestimating it by several dollars.
Selling it for $100 is nothing short of criminal.
Exactly, but 'holier than thou' tarts on here will simply say, 'well, MS is a business, so it's "fair" for them to sell the products for what it likes'. So, although it is preposterous to sell the HDDs and WiFi adapters for so much, just because it isn't illegal people accept it. Well, stupid people accept it, like the 'holier than thou' nutters on here. The rest of the people that know it is unfair simply use HDDHackr and such things to forcefully get what is fair.
In short, don't listen to the high-horse crowd, as they will defend anything MS does as long as it is within the law/ToS that we 'all signed up for'.
Post by: gratefulbuddy on November 11, 2009, 08:29:00 AM
QUOTE(pingrr @ Nov 11 2009, 02:26 PM)
Your logic is flawed ms does not loose $60 for each pirated game. You are assuming(fixed: sp) that every game a pirate downloads is a game they would have bought if they had an unmodeed console. This is simply not true.
Through this same rationale, M$ could claim that everyone who doesn't own a 360 is causing them to lose money. Just because I have money and don't give it to you doesn't mean you suffered a loss.
Post by: snart on November 11, 2009, 08:33:00 AM
QUOTE(mhouldey @ Nov 11 2009, 03:28 PM)
Exactly, but 'holier than thou' tarts on here will simply say, 'well, MS is a business, so it's "fair" for them to sell the products for what it likes'. So, although it is preposterous to sell the HDDs and WiFi adapters for so much, just because it isn't illegal people accept it. Well, stupid people accept it, like the 'holier than thou' nutters on here. The rest of the people that know it is unfair simply use HDDHackr and such things to forcefully get what is fair.
In short, don't listen to the high-horse crowd, as they will defend anything MS does as long as it is within the law/ToS that we 'all signed up for'.
First rule of economics, price has nothing to do with cost.
The inverse of what you're saying is true, too. If it costs you $20 to build something, and the market won't pay more than $15, you can't charge $25.
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 08:37:00 AM
QUOTE(K1LLERHORNET @ Nov 11 2009, 03:27 AM)
That figure looks right to me.
I read earlier that it costs around $5 to make the adapter, so $5-$10 seems right to me.
I seriously don't see how they justify charging this much.
Do tell how MS bought you a new console
They don't have to justify it. That is the beauty of it. They simply charge what they fancy, and if there is no other option for the customer, the customer will be forced to buy it. The word you are looking for is MONOPOLY. Of course, clever people find out ways to 'illegally' create another option for consumers (HHDHackr etc.), so we must be thankful for that.
Anyway, searching for justification as to why a company is trying to make as much money as it possibly can (regardless of fairness) is a waste of time, my friend. Just forget it.
Post by: Killah2km on November 11, 2009, 08:42:00 AM
.
Post by: ch13696 on November 11, 2009, 08:46:00 AM
Now I understand this is my first post. So go easy on me. I haven't been banned yet (knock on wood) and I check the support site and no error (knock on wood again). I have 15 friends with modded consoles and now there's 5 of us left. Those 10 friends are not saying it but I'm beginning to think that they messed up somewhere. They all got MW2 early and I'm assuming played with the ethernet cable connected and hard drive connected. They say they didn't but I can't prove that they are wrong.
Now here's what gets to me. After they were banned, you know what they did? They bought another Xbox 360 and promised never to mod. It's not the modding part that irritates me, good for them, but its the buying another 360. I mean, you have a 360 that you can play offline. Your arcade games will work and you'll still get achievements. If you want to play online why not get a PS3. Now you have both consoles with both sides on exclusives. They sold all their 360 games as soon as they got their console modded.
Anyways, I just want to let everyone know that are thinking about buying a 360. Why are you going to do that when there's a PS3? I'm not a fanboy. It just seems logical. If you still have the original games then by all means buy another 360. You need it. But if you pirated then you might as well buy the PS3 for the multiplayer and the exclusives. Its the same thing as the 360. Nothing different. Unless you want twitter and facebook.
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 08:51:00 AM
QUOTE(Artlover @ Nov 11 2009, 03:48 AM)
And while it is apparently mentioned in their TOS, it doesn't make it any more the legal (hey, if their TOS said they reserved the right to murder your mother, they can't come to your house, kill her and then wave their TOS at the police and be let go with no charges). Law comes first - various terms, conditions and provisions in the TOS are illegal - TOS is null & void.
The thing is, if the ToS was illegal to any degree, I doubt the army of lawyers at MS wouldn't have created them. The fact that they have created them suggests to me that they believe they are NOT illegal, and will NOT give them any problems in court.
I'm not saying they certainly aren't illegal, I'm just saying it's a hell of a risk to take if they are. Also, if it is clearly illegal, why aren't the people on these forums that bash piracy (because it is illegal) also bashing Live's ToS? It seem like these forums dwellers have one rule for MS and another for pirates.
A retort from one of these forum-dwellers would be welcomed.
QUOTE(echto @ Nov 11 2009, 04:44 AM)
Here is one way of looking at it.
96.84% buy games, 3.16% play pirated games.
Yep, piracy is killing the industry.
I believe that like I believe the record companies and their whinings.
Well done, mate. Seeing the numbers simply like that does show what nonsense it is.
"Oh, damn, we are making 3% less profit. Let's close the whole industry down."
LMAO.
MS, stop raping the game developers/publishers with your hefty royalties, FFS!
Post by: K1LLERHORNET on November 11, 2009, 08:53:00 AM
QUOTE(dangerpaki @ Nov 11 2009, 02:38 PM)
So everytime someone copies a Halo game they don't lose any money. Because you use your own DVD so even the costs for pressing the DVD aren't needed. And since they have already made profit in the first 24 hours it's bullshit to call it loss.
I am all against this ToS and copyright thing. If I buy a game then it is mine. If I download it, I download it using my own payed-for internet connection. Burn the game on my own payed-for DVD with my own payed-for DVD burner. Play it in my payed-for xbox.
So how do the developers who make the game get paid?
If they don't get paid, & it's an awesome game they've made (HALO, Forza, Mass Effect...), then how are the sequels gonna be funded?
I understand not paying for the disc, manual, case, box art etc. but what about what is actually on the disc?
QUOTE(ch13696 @ Nov 11 2009, 03:46 PM)
They all got MW2 early and I'm assuming played with the ethernet cable connected and hard drive connected. They say they didn't but I can't prove that they are wrong.
Check out their achievement date stamps
Post by: ymmv on November 11, 2009, 08:54:00 AM
QUOTE(mhouldey @ Nov 11 2009, 04:07 PM)
If you were an artist and you created something that you wanted people to use/see, would you prefer someone who couldn't afford it to simply not use/see it? I don't think many artists would.
I know you'll all cry about this comment, but it is pretty water-tight.
If I were an artist working in the comics or game industry I'd want people to buy the comics and games because my livelihood depended on it. You don't seem to realize that game don't fall out of the sky, they are made by actual people. Their income depends on a game selling well. If a game fails because too many nitwits like you download everything companies will not be able to pay the bills and fund new games. Programmers, artists, designers, game testers and musicians will lose their jobs.
This is a very tough economical climate, thousands of jobs have already been lost in the games industry. I'm sickened by idiots like you who use idiotic reasoning to whitewash piracy.
If you've got enough to buy a console, you've got enough money to buy games. To everyone who got banned: good for you. I hope MS can continue waving the ban hammer for a very, very long time.
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 08:55:00 AM
QUOTE(DemisesAngel @ Nov 11 2009, 05:11 AM)
@Artlover
I'm sorry, but banning and disabling functionality is completely within their rights. Comparing the two to murder? Are you kidding me? Get real.
Other than that, I pretty much agree to everything else you said.
He wasn't comparing disabling the HDD to murder, he was comparing the PRINCIPLE! FFS. The principle was, you cannot put illegal things in the ToS to make them legal. So therefore, if MS disabling your console's functionality is legal on its own, wrapping it in the Live ToS doesn't make it any less illegal. Of course, nobody knows if disabling the HDD is illegal in the first place, so the discussion is kinda pointless.
Post by: kalon on November 11, 2009, 08:56:00 AM
Most of the people I have seen pirate console games tend to go into a feeding frenzy, and grab titles they aren't interested in just to add them to the collection. Most of them would be rentals absent of a mod - but then again a lot of pirates do maintain a rental subscription. I would be very surprised if even 50% of the quoted figures were representative of the actual cost of piracy.
Post by: realitybytes on November 11, 2009, 08:57:00 AM
QUOTE(ch13696 @ Nov 11 2009, 04:46 PM)
Anyways, I just want to let everyone know that are thinking about buying a 360. Why are you going to do that when there's a PS3? I'm not a fanboy. It just seems logical. If you still have the original games then by all means buy another 360. You need it. But if you pirated then you might as well buy the PS3 for the multiplayer and the exclusives. Its the same thing as the 360. Nothing different. Unless you want twitter and facebook.
While I do have 30 - 40 original games, and one modded xbox that is not banned and one that is banned,. I went through the dilema in the queue 12:01 the launch of mw2 thinking will I buy just the game or a ps3 bundle, or an xbox bundle. Ended up with an xbox bundle not because like you also say I am a fanboy or because of the games I could easily trade them in against ps3 games, but the xbox has all I need and then some sky player is a great addition as I already have sky full packages, project natal basically makes the wii look stupid which I have but is soon to be sold as it never gets used.
While the ps3 is good, there is nothing it has to offer me that I cannot ultimately get from an xbox. I dont see the point in blaming MS for my to date one console ban that was down to me. I will no doubt keep my banned box(es) as they are around the house and use for offline as you suggested.
But ultimately it came down to what the xbox offers and for me it is way more than any other console.
Post by: AceVanquish on November 11, 2009, 09:20:00 AM
Post by: Exobex on November 11, 2009, 09:22:00 AM
Post by: OTSS on November 11, 2009, 09:29:00 AM
So they are effectively giving away installed base.
Post by: gizbug on November 11, 2009, 09:36:00 AM
QUOTE(OTSS @ Nov 11 2009, 10:29 AM)
I think it is stupid in a race to compete with PS3. I mean a lot of people originally would just buy a new xbox when they get banned because it was by far cheaper than a PS3. But now almost everyone I know who got banned is buying a PS3 because you can't be banned off there service very easily and all legit games you own won't become useless online. I would guess 30-40% if not more who get banned will buy a PS3. Then how does that help M$ win this console war?
So they are effectively giving away installed base.
Ya. Thinking of going PS3 for online play, or buy another 360 (not mod) and play my multi games on that.
Post by: princeton_E5 on November 11, 2009, 09:44:00 AM
i mean, am i Targeted? cos of the 1st 3? playing from the same ip? COS i dun think i am flag for playing original games, just wondering, howw about the other months of xbox live subscription i paid for? when the ban my live acc and console and my hdd is screwed too, for playing original games on live?
i had plaayed world at war and borderlands both original blu-ray disc online with both onf my ps3 and i did not get any bans, can any one tell me what am i supposed to do for being ban for playing originaal games? thanks .. i was frustrated and sad, for it.. i only play backups on one of the 3 banned console.
Post by: tactical on November 11, 2009, 09:46:00 AM
The ps3 is not game hacked and the 360 is, so you can still play all your backups offline all you want and check out all the new games, you just can't play online.
Now if you have to have non-modded 360 to play games online, play your backups off line and only play the retail games that you "love" on LIVE.
I know you might miss LIVE, but, you still can play ALL your backups on 360 and you can't play ANY backup on ps3.
I would like to bypass LIVE too by making portable LIVE servers that can connect 4-16 of us playing a LIVE game. Hopefully some hacker will figure out how to do it, they hacked the DVD drive which most of us NEVER thought they could do and hacked 360 for Linux, so since 600,000 of us our banned, the incentive to figure out how to bypass LIVE to play LIVE games will grow. Necessity is what will make the hackers FIGURE out a way.
Talk it up everybody, we have to come up with a way to play LIVE games without LIVE.
System LINK doesn't work because of 10ms cap , unless the cap gets removed, but 99 percent of games have LIVE connection and very few have system link included in games, so I recommend "portable LIVE servers".
Post by: CrazyKillerLeon on November 11, 2009, 09:55:00 AM
http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/8354166.stm
http://news.bbc.co.u...00/10002915.stm
Post by: K1LLERHORNET on November 11, 2009, 09:57:00 AM
Post by: joshualukin on November 11, 2009, 10:12:00 AM
QUOTE(OTSS @ Nov 11 2009, 05:29 PM)
I think it is stupid in a race to compete with PS3. I mean a lot of people originally would just buy a new xbox when they get banned because it was by far cheaper than a PS3. But now almost everyone I know who got banned is buying a PS3 because you can't be banned off there service very easily and all legit games you own won't become useless online. I would guess 30-40% if not more who get banned will buy a PS3. Then how does that help M$ win this console war?
So they are effectively giving away installed base.
Maybe, or they are hoping those who got banned will buy another system and play buy legit games again and be too scared to attempt to re-mod their systems. They are rolling the dice that we will stick with them and not buy a PS3, Wii, or On Live. Say what you want they've got balls like King Kong.
Post by: sandeman22 on November 11, 2009, 10:21:00 AM
Been on the phone with xbox-support, they cant give any guarantee that my new not modded xbox (elite) will not be banned by recovering my gamertag from the banned one.
I really don't get it, on what bases would they ban me ? Support tells me that they have no clue why the box was banned en therefore can not tell if its safe to recover my gamertag.
honestly i have not a clue what to do, if i buy a new membership i loose M$-points / gamertag / gamedata and 8 months membership. if i switch HD between boxes, the chance is that the not modded will be banned and i have to buy a new console...again
any thoughts on this one ?
and what would you do ?
Post by: realitybytes on November 11, 2009, 10:25:00 AM
QUOTE(joshualukin @ Nov 11 2009, 06:12 PM)
Maybe, or they are hoping those who got banned will buy another system and play buy legit games again and be too scared to attempt to re-mod their systems. They are rolling the dice that we will stick with them and not buy a PS3, Wii, or On Live. Say what you want they've got balls like King Kong.
I dont think MS hopes or gambles when it comes to finances and marketing/market research it is one thing they do to perfection if not the best in the world. They would have done the maths long before making any decisions and I bet they will meet or even better expectations. They are not amateurs almost everybody in the world will at some point have used or is dependant on one of their products both directly and by-proxy.
Post by: BoNg420 on November 11, 2009, 10:28:00 AM
QUOTE(joshualukin @ Nov 11 2009, 12:12 PM)
Maybe, or they are hoping those who got banned will buy another system and play buy legit games again and be too scared to attempt to re-mod their systems. They are rolling the dice that we will stick with them and not buy a PS3, Wii, or On Live. Say what you want they've got balls like King Kong.
What most people will do if they are banned, is buy a new console to keep legit and use their banned one to play their pirated/backup games. Really the only games that are fun to play online are FPS.
Post by: puddmo on November 11, 2009, 10:29:00 AM
The only error from my part was that i accidentally played forza 3 before release (i thought it had been released), though i wasn't connected to live and luckily i found out before i connected to live again so i formatted my HDD and made a new profile and didn't connect again until forza had been released.
Otherwise than this the consoles record was supposed to be clean (all games verified by abgx and never played too early)
After this I rode on smoothly playing forza and borderlands online for a couple of weeks.
I live in Sweden though so it may not be related to this rumor at all but the weird thing is, if I got banned for playing Forza wouldn't i have gotten the bann earlier?
Post by: Exobex on November 11, 2009, 10:32:00 AM
QUOTE(CrazyKillerLeon @ Nov 11 2009, 04:55 PM)
The guy took it to a shop and paid £75 to get it flashed? You get it done at your house around here for little more than half that!
Post by: mike171562 on November 11, 2009, 10:41:00 AM
QUOTE(pinkerton @ Nov 11 2009, 01:27 AM)
MS madness!! I see this as a million banned xbox's changing hands and replaced with a newly modded box.
All they seem to be doing is INCREASING the amount of modded boxes!!
This is true, modded banned xbox's arenet going anywhere, their just getting sold to people who dont use live with a bunch of free games. Banned users will just buy a new/used un-modded xbox, wait until the coast is clear and re-mod, basically doubling the amount of modded xbox's in circulation.
Post by: xTeslax on November 11, 2009, 10:43:00 AM
QUOTE(ch13696 @ Nov 11 2009, 10:46 AM)
Anyways, I just want to let everyone know that are thinking about buying a 360. Why are you going to do that when there's a PS3? I'm not a fanboy. It just seems logical. If you still have the original games then by all means buy another 360. You need it. But if you pirated then you might as well buy the PS3 for the multiplayer and the exclusives. Its the same thing as the 360. Nothing different. Unless you want twitter and facebook.
Many of us are REALLY into online gaming, and many of us would rather buy a new 360, original copies of Halo 3, MW1&2, etc and pay to play on live, which is far superior to the PS Network, than buy a PS3 just to gain some exclusives but be stuck with a less than ideal online system.
Unless the PS3 Network gets exponentially better I doubt they are going to get many converts.
Post by: realitybytes on November 11, 2009, 10:56:00 AM
QUOTE(sandeman22 @ Nov 11 2009, 06:21 PM)
Been on the phone with xbox-support, they cant give any guarantee that my new not modded xbox (elite) will not be banned by recovering my gamertag from the banned one.
I really don't get it, on what bases would they ban me ? Support tells me that they have no clue why the box was banned en therefore can not tell if its safe to recover my gamertag.
honestly i have not a clue what to do, if i buy a new membership i loose M$-points / gamertag / gamedata and 8 months membership. if i switch HD between boxes, the chance is that the not modded will be banned and i have to buy a new console...again
any thoughts on this one ?
and what would you do ?
Can you confirm you understood the operator correctly, and if so have you tried confirming this with a different operator.
It sounds alarming to say the least, I could undertsand them stating they cannot guarantee that you will not be banned in the future, as would be the case for anybody not just somebody who has previously been banned, but specifically for recovering your gamertag sounds harsh.
Post by: azuziel on November 11, 2009, 11:07:00 AM
QUOTE(xTeslax @ Nov 11 2009, 12:43 PM)
Unless the PS3 Network gets exponentially better I doubt they are going to get many converts.
Clearly you haven't used PSN. I have had no problems with it at all bud. fast load times, fast search times (forget the beta testing multiplayer stories of last year), and its free. It also streams ALL media foramts, or at last far more than xbox does. i would almost argue the PSN experince is equal to XBL. DOn't kid yourself, jsut because you pay more for something doest mean its better. Anything MS holds true to this, from hard drives, to shit vision cams, wireless n cards, battery packs, charging units, live memberships. Everything is more at MS.
I still have one unmodded console for my gf's online play, but thats only because i fear her
I'm just saying, just because it costs more doesnt mean it's a better service.
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 11:08:00 AM
QUOTE(Kloud @ Nov 11 2009, 09:45 AM)
Rofl you guys don't get it.
C4eva doesn't give a shit about Joe Pirate downloading and playing games. Him and his fellow coders write the firmware for their own reasons, we're just fortunate they share their work with us
Any idea as to what that reason is, Kloud?
Post by: ch13696 on November 11, 2009, 11:10:00 AM
QUOTE(xTeslax @ Nov 11 2009, 09:43 AM)
Many of us are REALLY into online gaming, and many of us would rather buy a new 360, original copies of Halo 3, MW1&2, etc and pay to play on live, which is far superior to the PS Network, than buy a PS3 just to gain some exclusives but be stuck with a less than ideal online system.
Unless the PS3 Network gets exponentially better I doubt they are going to get many converts.
Wow. You haven't played the PS3 in awhile or at all right? I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just came up with a theory to this. If you pay money towards a service then you think you're getting your money's worth. As far as getting it free then you think you're not getting much for it. Same thing as pirating a game compared to buying it. There's a lot of games that I've pirated that I haven't finished yet. While the games that I have purchased I have finished. And I heard this from plenty of people on the forums.
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 11:19:00 AM
Post by: gizbug on November 11, 2009, 11:19:00 AM
Post by: signal-to-noise-ratio on November 11, 2009, 11:21:00 AM
QUOTE(Sin3xtreme @ Nov 11 2009, 05:39 AM)
if you do the sums a possible 1 million consoles banned and the replacement costs.M$ stand to make a hell of a lot of money
looks like somone is trying to replace profit lost due to rrod repairs
I was thinking that also. All these banned consoles are ones they don't have to support or fix. Saving them alot of money. Plus if people go out and buy another console ms is making even more money.
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 11:32:00 AM
QUOTE(FawnTheGuyver @ Nov 11 2009, 01:20 PM)
How a unban have to work ?
someone want go inside a Microsoft Center where the LIVE servers are and unban the console or how.
Mayby it would be possible to unban some of the Hardware problems but you cant go live when you go live the service check you serial no. or what ever and when it is ban then it will not let you inside like a MAC filter ( mayby it is the MAC ) so a unban is not possible. it is like you have a W-LAN and it is full opne but you secure it wit the exclude and include of a MAC adress.
And the ban come to the right time X-Mas when you got ban you have to buy a new one so Microsoft can say in 2010 we sold more consoles then Sony.
Exactly, when you go Live they check the serial number against the list of banned serial numbers. Therefore, to unban you must change your box's serial number, either by using a serial from another unbanned box, or by somehow generating a valid, unique serial.
QUOTE(K1LLERHORNET @ Nov 11 2009, 01:35 PM)
+1
Fair play, though, it seems to be mostly Americans that say 'could'.
Either way, I could care less about grammar and all that, so it doesn't bother me.
QUOTE(turkey_fiddler @ Nov 11 2009, 01:52 PM)
im turkey fiddler and windows 7 was my idea!!
and so was the ban hammer!!
and so was aids!
and xbox was my idea aswell
i wonder how much c4eva has actualy cost m$! 1 million consoles!!
hahahaha
long live c4eva
ive been banned 3 times since 2005 and yesterday they banned me again!!
they can take our console but they can never take our freedom!
im chatting crap now
That line should have been put right at the top, son.
Either way, have some manly love for an entertaining post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)
This post has been edited by mhouldey: Nov 11 2009, 07:33 PM
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 11:49:00 AM
QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 11 2009, 02:53 PM)
In all honesty I have to say that this forum has the most whiny little cry babies I have ever seen.
Most broke the law (I'm not so naive to believe no one here pirates games), a live ban is a pretty good punishment, it sure beats serving time or a damn hefty fine! If you are one of the few who have never downloaded a game you still broke the TOU which you agreed to, so what possible argument do you have?
Dislike Microsoft because they stop you doing something that you shouldn't be doing? I doubt they will miss you.
Is it OK to dislike MS for other things, like selling HDDs for an unreasonable markup? Or is the rule, 'One cannot dislike MS for any reason or I will flame thee'? I just want to know how to avoid being told off by you, as you're really tough and scary and I don't like it.
QUOTE(azuziel @ Nov 11 2009, 03:02 PM)
You don't know what you're talking about sir. Yesterday morning I was able to submit a repair request. Got home, tried it again, and had service unavailable. I knew I was already banned, so signed in for confirmation.
Chances are your consoleID has already been flagged. I wish you the best though.
Edit: gf made me buy another used consoel for halo ffs. So now i have my backup unit, and my live unit. Chicks dig halo
. Still trading in 31 other titles in exchange for a ps3 Fair play, but if you literally KNEW you were banned, surely signing in is just wasting a perfectly good HDD install feature? I don't see the point of signing in if you are positive you are banned. Just my opinion though, I suppose.
Post by: xiaNaix on November 11, 2009, 11:57:00 AM
QUOTE(sandeman22 @ Nov 11 2009, 06:21 PM)
Been on the phone with xbox-support, they cant give any guarantee that my new not modded xbox (elite) will not be banned by recovering my gamertag from the banned one.
I really don't get it, on what bases would they ban me ? Support tells me that they have no clue why the box was banned en therefore can not tell if its safe to recover my gamertag.
honestly i have not a clue what to do, if i buy a new membership i loose M$-points / gamertag / gamedata and 8 months membership. if i switch HD between boxes, the chance is that the not modded will be banned and i have to buy a new console...again
any thoughts on this one ?
and what would you do ?
I doubt if that's true but, if it is, I'd just switch to the PS3.
Post by: foxhunt99 on November 11, 2009, 12:02:00 PM
QUOTE(azuziel @ Nov 11 2009, 07:07 PM)
Clearly you haven't used PSN. I have had no problems with it at all bud. fast load times, fast search times (forget the beta testing multiplayer stories of last year), and its free. It also streams ALL media foramts, or at last far more than xbox does. i would almost argue the PSN experince is equal to XBL. DOn't kid yourself, jsut because you pay more for something doest mean its better. Anything MS holds true to this, from hard drives, to shit vision cams, wireless n cards, battery packs, charging units, live memberships. Everything is more at MS.
I own both PS3 and Xbox 360, I am glad to pay for XBL any day, it is far better than PSN service. You get what you pay for. Only good thing about PSN is that it is free.
Post by: ch13696 on November 11, 2009, 12:02:00 PM
Lol. I'm just kidding. I can't wait for c4eva's new firmware. I appreciate his work. Same with abgx.
Quick question will this iXtreme LT work on all DVD drives?
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 12:13:00 PM
QUOTE(ymmv @ Nov 11 2009, 03:54 PM)
If I were an artist working in the comics or game industry I'd want people to buy the comics and games because my livelihood depended on it. You don't seem to realize that game don't fall out of the sky, they are made by actual people. Their income depends on a game selling well. If a game fails because too many nitwits like you download everything companies will not be able to pay the bills and fund new games. Programmers, artists, designers, game testers and musicians will lose their jobs.
This is a very tough economical climate, thousands of jobs have already been lost in the games industry. I'm sickened by idiots like you who use idiotic reasoning to whitewash piracy.
If you've got enough to buy a console, you've got enough money to buy games. To everyone who got banned: good for you. I hope MS can continue waving the ban hammer for a very, very long time.
Firstly, who says I am a pirate FFS?
Secondly, you are missing my point. Of course an artist wants his work to sell so he can make a living from it. My point, however, was that if a person literally isn't going to buy the art (as they have no money to do so, or whatever) then the artist might aswell let the person have the art anyway. Two good things happen here: The person gets to enjoy the art and the artist has been able to spread his gift without being annoyed/worried that he won't be able to feed his kids as he has just lost a sale. He hasn't lost a sale, yet one more person gets to enjoy his work. How good is that?
Of course, it all breaks down if the person lies and makes out he has no money, when he in fact does, and is just trying to get the art for free. However, this is irrelevant. I am discussing the principle that giving something away does not always equal a lost sale.
If you can't grasp this principle, ymmv, and all you can manage is calling me a filfthy pirate or some crap, then good luck in life, brother.
QUOTE(sandeman22 @ Nov 11 2009, 05:21 PM)
Been on the phone with xbox-support, they cant give any guarantee that my new not modded xbox (elite) will not be banned by recovering my gamertag from the banned one.
I really don't get it, on what bases would they ban me ? Support tells me that they have no clue why the box was banned en therefore can not tell if its safe to recover my gamertag.
honestly i have not a clue what to do, if i buy a new membership i loose M$-points / gamertag / gamedata and 8 months membership. if i switch HD between boxes, the chance is that the not modded will be banned and i have to buy a new console...again
any thoughts on this one ?
and what would you do ?
I think it is quite clear that they won't ban a unmodded console just because you are using a certain GT. It doesn't make sense. The support hotline people just reply in that way because basically they have no clue about the bannings. All they get is a 'banned' or 'unbanned' status on their screen for a particular serial number. They are probably all young kids working in the call centre, just reading from a script. You won't get any helpful information from them.
So I say get on with it. Good luck, mate (not that I think you need it).
Post by: gAm3 Fr3aQu3 on November 11, 2009, 12:34:00 PM
QUOTE(Grim187 @ Nov 10 2009, 04:33 PM)
More $
QUOTE(rastaman108037 @ Nov 10 2009, 04:54 PM)
Also, he has some "holier than thou" notion that pirates are ruining our industry...or something. You can't pirate dlc or xbox live. They're just pining for more console sales. I'll switch to the PS3 if I'm banned again.
Though buying red....
Exactly.
Post by: joshualukin on November 11, 2009, 12:52:00 PM
QUOTE(mike171562 @ Nov 11 2009, 06:41 PM)
This is true, modded banned xbox's arenet going anywhere, their just getting sold to people who dont use live with a bunch of free games. Banned users will just buy a new/used un-modded xbox, wait until the coast is clear and re-mod, basically doubling the amount of modded xbox's in circulation.
Yeah and there are people like me that if banned will play more and more pirated games without fear from being banned. The only thing keeping me from playing DL games is fear from being banished.
Post by: HotKnife420 on November 11, 2009, 12:59:00 PM
QUOTE(mhouldey @ Nov 11 2009, 08:13 PM)
Firstly, who says I am a pirate FFS?
Secondly, you are missing my point. Of course an artist wants his work to sell so he can make a living from it. My point, however, was that if a person literally isn't going to buy the art (as they have no money to do so, or whatever) then the artist might aswell let the person have the art anyway. Two good things happen here: The person gets to enjoy the art and the artist has been able to spread his gift without being annoyed/worried that he won't be able to feed his kids as he has just lost a sale. He hasn't lost a sale, yet one more person gets to enjoy his work. How good is that?
I'm an artist, myself, and I'll attest to that. There's nothing I love more than someone paying to listen to the music I make. It's not nearly as easy as it sounds, though. Just because I make music, and have it for sale, doesn't mean people are going to buy it (no matter how good it is). Sales are always easier to make if other people are familiar with your product. When I dropped my last CD, it seems I couldn't get ANYBODY to buy it, so I started giving them away for free. Now, I have an easier time selling one (at least in my own local market), and I've also gotten more work by giving it away to certain people. So handing it out for free has actually HELPED me make money.
BUT...
People seem to forget that it's up to the artist whether or not they want to give one away for free. While I do give plenty of freebies away, it's at my own discretion; not someone else's. If somebody were bootlegging my CD, I'd be concerned (unless I gave them permission) because:
- They didn't ask my permission
- I don't want any of my listeners (and potential fans) to have a product with reduced quality (concerning both the music and packaging)
...not that it's a big deal to me, either way. If someone tells me they bought/downloaded a copy of my music and it didn't come from me, I'm still thrilled that they took the time to enjoy what I made, and if I walked up on someone bootlegging my CD, I'd be more concerned that they were making good copies of it than asking them for some money and/or to stop, but again, those are MY decisions to make - not someone else's.
A lot of us need to grow up - we get concepts like "well, I wouldn't pay for it, but since it's free/dirt cheap, I'll check it out", and while that may be 100% true, we don't realize that we're acting like obnoxious children - sneaking behind our parents' backs when we don't get our way.
Post by: Blackhawk163 on November 11, 2009, 01:20:00 PM
Now here's the thing. My Elite was originally a 79fk, I flashed it once the tools were made available to do so. No need to lie about where I got my games, suffice it to say it wasn't at any retail shops
It eventually RROD' okay no problem. Reattach the sticker and send it off. I got the same unit back in April of this year, however now with a Liteon. I got that flashed once the tools for that became readily available. MS already new this. The CSR told me that prior to the April-May time line my console checked fine by what she said was the XBL servers, however shortly afterward it was flagged as being modified.
Funny thing is that she told me that my console was banned. I thanked her for the tip off. Needless to say my 360 is unplugged from live (after having being logged on during the start of the wave) until last night, thus saving my profile, I can still play and install to HD. As for my saves and achievements? My 360 hasn't received that Kill switch so I should be fine.
I'm not mad, it's all part of the game.
Post by: sandeman22 on November 11, 2009, 01:27:00 PM
QUOTE(realitybytes @ Nov 11 2009, 06:56 PM)
Can you confirm you understood the operator correctly, and if so have you tried confirming this with a different operator.
It sounds alarming to say the least, I could undertsand them stating they cannot guarantee that you will not be banned in the future, as would be the case for anybody not just somebody who has previously been banned, but specifically for recovering your gamertag sounds harsh.
actually i did understand correct and asked the question "so if i recover my gamertag, there is a possibility that my new original out of the box elite could be banned ?"
her reaction was "i cannot guarantee you that you are 100% safe for getting banned again, we don't now were people exactly are getting banned for"
so i was wondering what the hell kind of data (wich recovering is about) could ban you
c4eva is checking logs and a lot of other things but i never saw anybody that was checking this....
Post by: evolution2147 on November 11, 2009, 01:32:00 PM
Also lets stop with the BS about ms checking dates of achievements for bans, because everyone knows if power is lost to your console the date gets set back to 2005. and i have many new game saves that are dated from 2005 because i forgot to plug my Enet cable back in when i was playing. Its also very easy to change the time on your console and ms has to take into account people setting there date accidentally wrong. So that also cannot be true.
Post by: CsL on November 11, 2009, 01:34:00 PM
Post by: Exobex on November 11, 2009, 01:47:00 PM
QUOTE(evolution2147 @ Nov 11 2009, 08:32 PM)
OK, everyone seems to think that ms can detect firmware which is simply not true. If they could they we would have never have been able to play online.
Can you fly a Boeing 747? No? Does that mean that you'll never, ever be able to fly one? No. Because you can always learn.
Back when iXtreme firmwares were developed, could MS detect them? Probably not. Does that mean that they were never, ever going to be able to detect them? No. Because they can always learn, and it looks like they have done.
If you're so confident that they can't detect hacked firmware, go buy a new 360, mod it and hook it up to Live. Don't play copies. See what happens.
This post has been edited by Exobex: Nov 11 2009, 09:48 PM
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 02:13:00 PM
QUOTE(Exobex @ Nov 11 2009, 08:47 PM)
Can you fly a Boeing 747? No? Does that mean that you'll never, ever be able to fly one? No. Because you can always learn.
Back when iXtreme firmwares were developed, could MS detect them? Probably not. Does that mean that they were never, ever going to be able to detect them? No. Because they can always learn, and it looks like they have done.
If you're so confident that they can't detect hacked firmware, go buy a new 360, mod it and hook it up to Live. Don't play copies. See what happens.
Just to let you know, it would be a total waste to mod. a 360 and not play backups on it. There is no point. Also, if they could detect FW, then everyone would be banned, unless you are saying that they have pruposefully chosen not to ban people. Those are the two choices. Either they can detect FW and are choosing not to ban certain people (as there are PLENTY of people still on Live with modded boxes) or they can't detect FW, and hence, for whatever reason, some boxes slip through the net (flagging processes).
You might aswell pick an option at random, as we cannot prove either of them.
Post by: evolution2147 on November 11, 2009, 02:23:00 PM
QUOTE(mhouldey @ Nov 11 2009, 10:13 PM)
Just to let you know, it would be a total waste to mod. a 360 and not play backups on it. There is no point. Also, if they could detect FW, then everyone would be banned, unless you are saying that they have pruposefully chosen not to ban people. Those are the two choices. Either they can detect FW and are choosing not to ban certain people (as there are PLENTY of people still on Live with modded boxes) or they can't detect FW, and hence, for whatever reason, some boxes slip through the net (flagging processes).
You might aswell pick an option at random, as we cannot prove either of them.
this is true but in c4eva's post he said he has a brand new xbox modded only playing originals and everything is fine. I also know 3 people whose consoles i flashed a long time ago who dont play copied games anymore and they are both fine. and they are the only ones i know that aren t banned.
This post has been edited by evolution2147: Nov 11 2009, 10:29 PM
Post by: thievesscene on November 11, 2009, 02:35:00 PM
Post by: mitsu50 on November 11, 2009, 02:46:00 PM
and if you are drunk playing with your friends one night, and forget to switch your chip off, and get yourself BANNED, you can just grab someone elses box, and copy their EEPROM to yours, and voila, back online!
Its all offline play for me for now!!!!
Post by: nuzz on November 11, 2009, 03:21:00 PM
QUOTE(Blackhawk163 @ Nov 11 2009, 09:20 PM)
Funny thing is that she told me that my console was banned. I thanked her for the tip off. Needless to say my 360 is unplugged from live (after having being logged on during the start of the wave) until last night, thus saving my profile, I can still play and install to HD. As for my saves and achievements? My 360 hasn't received that Kill switch so I should be fine.
I'm not mad, it's all part of the game.
Until you boot a game that has the updated ban list
Post by: dokworm on November 11, 2009, 03:23:00 PM
QUOTE(mhouldey @ Nov 11 2009, 10:13 PM)
Just to let you know, it would be a total waste to mod. a 360 and not play backups on it. There is no point. Also, if they could detect FW, then everyone would be banned, unless you are saying that they have pruposefully chosen not to ban people. Those are the two choices. Either they can detect FW and are choosing not to ban certain people (as there are PLENTY of people still on Live with modded boxes) or they can't detect FW, and hence, for whatever reason, some boxes slip through the net (flagging processes).
You might aswell pick an option at random, as we cannot prove either of them.
Just to let everyone know, the Jasper I decided to mod just to test this theory was banned this morning.
Here is what I did. Took my un-modded Jasper, opened it up and took out the liteon drive. Powered it up in my PC (built a power supply cable so that the PC powered it up) and used a home-made probe to read the drive. Flashed it with Jungle flasher. The procedure was pretty straight forward after a few attempts at getting the tray in the right position.
Put the drive back into the 360, and plugged it into live. Played nothing but original discs, Beatles Rock Band, Viva Pinata, , Geometry wars and Guitar Hero. It has been online for about a week, and got nuked today.
So it has never had a backup in it, only ran an original 20GB hard drive from and RROD launch console and was never powered up without the DVD-ROM attached.
Just thought the info might help, really wasn't expecting it to get banned though, guess I'll write it off to taking one for the team.
Post by: RichMR2 on November 11, 2009, 03:39:00 PM
QUOTE(mhouldey @ Nov 11 2009, 06:49 PM)
Is it OK to dislike MS for other things, like selling HDDs for an unreasonable markup? Or is the rule, 'One cannot dislike MS for any reason or I will flame thee'? I just want to know how to avoid being told off by you, as you're really tough and scary and I don't like it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
Who was flaming or telling off? I was pointing out that this whole forum is full of cry babies who are upset that they got caught breaking the rules and banned. I also didn't say it's not OK to dislike MS, but those who are complaining about being banned and now will move over to PS3 purely to stick it to MS are living in dream land, MS wont even notice them gone.
Microsoft banned you for breaking the terms of the agreement you agreed to. Get over it, I have.
Post by: Ranger72 on November 11, 2009, 03:41:00 PM
QUOTE(mhouldey @ Nov 11 2009, 04:13 PM)
Just to let you know, it would be a total waste to mod. a 360 and not play backups on it. There is no point. Also, if they could detect FW, then everyone would be banned, unless you are saying that they have pruposefully chosen not to ban people. Those are the two choices. Either they can detect FW and are choosing not to ban certain people (as there are PLENTY of people still on Live with modded boxes) or they can't detect FW, and hence, for whatever reason, some boxes slip through the net (flagging processes).
You might aswell pick an option at random, as we cannot prove either of them.
Why do people continue to believe they can detect the firmware directly? Mod a console and never put a backup in it and it will stay safe on Live since the firmware CANT BE DETECTED DIRECTLY!
However by detecting backups they are in a way detecting the firmware indirectly.
Post by: gAm3 Fr3aQu3 on November 11, 2009, 03:44:00 PM
QUOTE(mitsu50 @ Nov 11 2009, 02:46 PM)
ah, i miss the days of xbox1, you switch you xecuter chip ON, and play your copies happily offline. then switch your chip OFF, and play your originals on XBL.
and if you are drunk playing with your friends one night, and forget to switch your chip off, and get yourself BANNED, you can just grab someone elses box, and copy their EEPROM to yours, and voila, back online!
Its all offline play for me for now!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
LMAO, that's exactly what happened to my friend's XBOX when one of our roomates came back from a frat party all drunk and then played Halo 2.
Post by: thund3rstruck on November 11, 2009, 03:49:00 PM
QUOTE(amak1131 @ Nov 11 2009, 01:18 AM)
Rofl, not sure what I wanna say. I'll just simply put that downloading a game is not equal to stealing. Even that short of a response is too dignified for that comment.
Looks like M$ was waiting and caught many of us with our pants down. Not too much to worry about, though. The modders always win and they will once again. I'm confident that c4eva will be releasing a big "f you!" to M$ soon enough:D
Oh please c4eva works for Microsoft; he's the lead engineer for R&D in new markets. This is corporate strategy materialised in the biggest way and all of you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 03:52:00 PM
QUOTE(thievesscene @ Nov 11 2009, 09:35 PM)
You guys are the biggest fucking idiots around. You steal and then get mad that you get caught. I can't wait for you morons to start a lawsuit. "Yes your honor, I was stealing games but they have no right to stop me. I can do whatever I want." I bet MS is really sad that a bunch of lazy thieves are not going to steal from them anymore. "I bought tons of stuff off marketplace, now I'm going ps3". You losers aren't going anywhere because you can't hack the ps3. You would have to peel your fat bodies off the recliner, get out of mommies house and get a job. Then actually PAY for your games. Later virgins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LMAO. Retard alert!
Post by: x6411 on November 11, 2009, 03:55:00 PM
Post by: mhouldey on November 11, 2009, 04:01:00 PM
QUOTE(RichMR2 @ Nov 11 2009, 10:39 PM)
Who was flaming or telling off? I was pointing out that this whole forum is full of cry babies who are upset that they got caught breaking the rules and banned. I also didn't say it's not OK to dislike MS, but those who are complaining about being banned and now will move over to PS3 purely to stick it to MS are living in dream land, MS wont even notice them gone.
Microsoft banned you for breaking the terms of the agreement you agreed to. Get over it, I have.
I'm not banned, you drug-addled nutcase. Stop acting like you know anything about me, son.
Also, here's a simple question for you: Do you think that the price MS charges for HDDs is reasonable?
No nonsense, just answer the question.
QUOTE(dokworm @ Nov 11 2009, 10:23 PM)
Just to let everyone know, the Jasper I decided to mod just to test this theory was banned this morning.
Here is what I did. Took my un-modded Jasper, opened it up and took out the liteon drive. Powered it up in my PC (built a power supply cable so that the PC powered it up) and used a home-made probe to read the drive. Flashed it with Jungle flasher. The procedure was pretty straight forward after a few attempts at getting the tray in the right position.
Put the drive back into the 360, and plugged it into live. Played nothing but original discs, Beatles Rock Band, Viva Pinata, , Geometry wars and Guitar Hero. It has been online for about a week, and got nuked today.
So it has never had a backup in it, only ran an original 20GB hard drive from and RROD launch console and was never powered up without the DVD-ROM attached.
Just thought the info might help, really wasn't expecting it to get banned though, guess I'll write it off to taking one for the team.
QUOTE(Ranger72 @ Nov 11 2009, 10:41 PM)
Why do people continue to believe they can detect the firmware directly? Mod a console and never put a backup in it and it will stay safe on Live since the firmware CANT BE DETECTED DIRECTLY!
However by detecting backups they are in a way detecting the firmware indirectly.
I hear you, Ranger72, but how on Earth do you explain people like dokworm? He has posted that a newly flashed console which has seen no backups has been banned. Are you categorically accusing him of lying?
QUOTE(thund3rstruck @ Nov 11 2009, 10:49 PM)
Oh please c4eva works for Microsoft; he's the lead engineer for R&D in new markets. This is corporate strategy materialised in the biggest way and all of you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
I assume you have proof of this. After all, only a severely brain-damaged person would post such a thing without having any evidence. Ah, hang on...
Post by: catman25 on November 11, 2009, 04:29:00 PM
i was banned but i have a friend that has a unmodded 360 ! i want to trade him my modded banned one for the unmodded one but worried about hdd corrupt ! . is it only when you take the hdd out of the banned 360 and put it in a non banned one will it corrupt? or does it corrupt after every game you play ? the reason ? the dude dont have internet and would have no way to redownload his profile . ! im thinking as long as he uses banned 360 and doesnt try to put hdd in a new 360 it shouldnt corruptthe profile right ???
Post by: STICKY_BUD on November 11, 2009, 04:53:00 PM
MS Plans To Ban 1 Million Consoles
i wont bother to link to it!
i am sure that m$ will ban every console possible, but nobody knows how many and since reporter had no comment from an m$ spokesperson, she must be also publishing this same phillipines heresay.
Post by: signal-to-noise-ratio on November 11, 2009, 05:07:00 PM
QUOTE(STICKY_BUD @ Nov 11 2009, 06:53 PM)
oh man, i just read a news article on msnbc called:
MS Plans To Ban 1 Million Consoles
i wont bother to link to it!
i am sure that m$ will ban every console possible, but nobody knows how many and since reporter had no comment from an m$ spokesperson, she must be also publishing this same phillipines heresay.
It would be interesting if ms/nbc had the inside scoop. But I agree I think they are just publishing the rumors like cnn and everyone else. It does say "according to the company." though. Huh. Seems like rumor might be true.
Just noticed some interesting wording here. "Anywhere between an estimated 600,000 and 1 million players who use Microsoft's Xbox Live gaming service will be cut off from the service because they have modified their game consoles or played games that were illegally downloaded from file-sharing sites, according to the company."
Post by: SpikeMage on November 11, 2009, 05:35:00 PM
QUOTE(trentdadi @ Nov 10 2009, 04:31 PM)
Apparently now is the time if 600k people have really been banned so far. Think about it... the price of a new game is 60$. If all 600k of them people pirated one game, that would be a 36,000,000$ loss (Saying each person only pirated one game is being very kind, think how quickly it adds up if that 1 game turns into 10). Banning 3% of their customer's consoles is a loss they are probably plenty willing to take. They are only protecting themselves AND all the companies who develop games for their consoles. I personally applaud Microsoft for these bans.
Thats assuming all of those people will now buy new consoles and start buying legit games. The ban doesnt stop people from playing pirated games, just stops you from playing them on live. I'd say it's a safe bet that most banned consoles will still be playing pirated games. However those same people will not be bombarded with advertising and don't even have the option of spending money on live. You say they're portecting all the companies who develop for their console but what about the guys making XBLA games and other DLC? Suddenly there are a million less potential customers.
Personally I have not been banned, and i'm not going to be as I don't plan on connecting to live ever again. Removing banned consoles from their network is fair game. Im ok with that. But disabling functionality and denying customers access to content they have already paid for is crossing the line. As others have stated I'll just be doing my online gaming on PS3 from now on.
Post by: cvdd1234 on November 11, 2009, 05:37:00 PM
Post by: mat82284 on November 11, 2009, 06:35:00 PM
Wow they hit 1million!
Post by: CardnalSyn on November 11, 2009, 06:40:00 PM
QUOTE(foxhunt99 @ Nov 11 2009, 01:02 PM)
I own both PS3 and Xbox 360, I am glad to pay for XBL any day, it is far better than PSN service. You get what you pay for. Only good thing about PSN is that it is free.
PS Networks offers game downloads and netflix. Seriously, who cares about downloading wallpaper (that you have to pay for) and other useless content?? XBL is no better than PS Network...
Post by: BenJeremy on November 11, 2009, 06:45:00 PM
QUOTE(dokworm @ Nov 11 2009, 05:23 PM)
Just to let everyone know, the Jasper I decided to mod just to test this theory was banned this morning.
Here is what I did. Took my un-modded Jasper, opened it up and took out the liteon drive. Powered it up in my PC (built a power supply cable so that the PC powered it up) and used a home-made probe to read the drive. Flashed it with Jungle flasher. The procedure was pretty straight forward after a few attempts at getting the tray in the right position.
Put the drive back into the 360, and plugged it into live. Played nothing but original discs, Beatles Rock Band, Viva Pinata, , Geometry wars and Guitar Hero. It has been online for about a week, and got nuked today.
So it has never had a backup in it, only ran an original 20GB hard drive from and RROD launch console and was never powered up without the DVD-ROM attached.
Just thought the info might help, really wasn't expecting it to get banned though, guess I'll write it off to taking one for the team.
Good info, and it seems that C4Eva already made the discovery which your sacrifice confirms.
Microsoft has devised a method for detecting a hacked drive. A more interesting test would have been to not run ANY game discs in it.
Please note people... inferring the presence of hacked firmware is NOT the same thing as directly readng it. Nobody who knows this stuff would claim that. It's always been about inferring the existence of hacked firmware, whether it's detecting poison pill releases, or seeing bad rips with 'valid' but incorrect security sectors.
What is different this time, is that Microsoft has figured out how to tell the difference without a backup being inserted. It could be something as simple as activating a response with a "secret knock" that s triggered based on the order and number of challenges, or a matter of timing/jitter data that is consistently different between a hacked drive and original firmware.
The claim, all along, has only been that Microsoft has no DIRECT way of detecting the firmware. All of the queries to IXtreme firmwares respond with the same responses expected from original firmwares. Now that Microsoft has made some changes, C4Eva has examined the changes, and found something that Microsoft was seeing.
I'm a bit troubled by several reports of unmodded consoles getting banned though.... that smacks of the infamous "angle bannings" that was not a foolproof method of detecting hacked drives (since legit drives with weaker optics could return a 360 angle). That would point to Microsoft using a group of timings to detect differences between drives, and they may be relying on ranges of values that simply aren't tight enough to exclude legitimate users with failing optical drives.
Post by: torbjorn on November 11, 2009, 07:11:00 PM
SOMEONE SUE THEM!!!!!!
NOW!!!!!!!!!
im banned ,and i most of the time played halo original, and because i had one bad odt rip i shall pepunished since i also have the original??
the neggaxbox have already scratched the shit out of my dvds so wht??
Post by: marlboroa on November 11, 2009, 07:13:00 PM
Post by: mat82284 on November 11, 2009, 07:21:00 PM
QUOTE(marlboroa @ Nov 12 2009, 02:13 AM)
well i have not had my xbox online in 2 years because i didnt have a internet line where the 360 was and i didnt have the wireless addapter. today i climbed in the attic and ran a cat 5 line to it finally. turned it on and im banned. oh well i didnt play it very much anyway. the last game played on it was call of duty 4.
That is strange. You were probably banned from the previous ban without ever knowing it since it was 2 years ago lol.
Post by: dokworm on November 11, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
QUOTE(BenJeremy @ Nov 12 2009, 02:45 AM)
Good info, and it seems that C4Eva already made the discovery which your sacrifice confirms.
Microsoft has devised a method for detecting a hacked drive. A more interesting test would have been to not run ANY game discs in it.
Please note people... inferring the presence of hacked firmware is NOT the same thing as directly readng it. Nobody who knows this stuff would claim that. It's always been about inferring the existence of hacked firmware, whether it's detecting poison pill releases, or seeing bad rips with 'valid' but incorrect security sectors.
What is different this time, is that Microsoft has figured out how to tell the difference without a backup being inserted. It could be something as simple as activating a response with a "secret knock" that s triggered based on the order and number of challenges, or a matter of timing/jitter data that is consistently different between a hacked drive and original firmware.
The claim, all along, has only been that Microsoft has no DIRECT way of detecting the firmware. All of the queries to IXtreme firmwares respond with the same responses expected from original firmwares. Now that Microsoft has made some changes, C4Eva has examined the changes, and found something that Microsoft was seeing.
I'm a bit troubled by several reports of unmodded consoles getting banned though.... that smacks of the infamous "angle bannings" that was not a foolproof method of detecting hacked drives (since legit drives with weaker optics could return a 360 angle). That would point to Microsoft using a group of timings to detect differences between drives, and they may be relying on ranges of values that simply aren't tight enough to exclude legitimate users with failing optical drives.
What the hell, I'll get another console today and mod it and sit it online with no discs at all having been in it, and see what happens. I can't use live for gaming anyway because of the crappy internet I have, and I really want to know if they can do this. I'll use the extra box for linkplay.
-DW
Post by: tracy2420 on November 11, 2009, 07:39:00 PM
QUOTE(DemisesAngel @ Nov 10 2009, 11:57 PM)
There are shit ton of people that play on live and are addicted to it. We all know Leaf, XBConnect and XLink Kai suck! .
You shouldnt knock on Kai and XBConnect. At least they are free. Alot of hard working people put in a lot of time making it for some people like you to use. They deserve our respect.
This post has been edited by tracy2420: Nov 12 2009, 03:42 AM
Post by: johnnie360 on November 11, 2009, 08:00:00 PM
Its just perplexing that the guy who got me into all of this is still not banned. he is on all the time.
I read him some of this stuff and he speculates some tall tales by users on here. I dont know where I satnd. I know over the course of two years I had been sloppy. I got banned when there was no disc in the drive, after playing earlier in the day. In the long run Im just singing rehashing the same jibberish thats on here time and time again. But I was shocked to hear he hasnt been banned and playing now.
Hes just very careful.
Rips physical discs
ABGX verifie only. doesnt verifie re rips it until it does. auto fix zero.
Slow burn on verbatims
Re Check iso after burn
all played games installed to hd
Everyone on here can say what they havent done. But they may be liying. and dammit I know what hes done, and everyone around me except for him has dropped like flys.
Post by: SpikeMage on November 11, 2009, 08:10:00 PM
QUOTE(torbjorn @ Nov 11 2009, 06:11 PM)
banning xboxes and taking away key thing should be illegal cuz its rendereing the value of the xboxes.
SOMEONE SUE THEM!!!!!!
NOW!!!!!!!!!
im banned ,and i most of the time played halo original, and because i had one bad odt rip i shall pepunished since i also have the original??
the neggaxbox have already scratched the shit out of my dvds so wht??
SOMEONE SUE THEM!!!!!!
NOW!!!!!!!!!
im banned ,and i most of the time played halo original, and because i had one bad odt rip i shall pepunished since i also have the original??
the neggaxbox have already scratched the shit out of my dvds so wht??
Well, at least some good came of this ban wave.
Post by: mat82284 on November 11, 2009, 08:14:00 PM
QUOTE(SpikeMage @ Nov 12 2009, 03:10 AM)
Well, at least some good came of this ban wave.
+1
Post by: ThugPlayer05 on November 11, 2009, 08:42:00 PM
Post by: fluffyduffy on November 11, 2009, 11:54:00 PM
QUOTE(torbjorn @ Nov 12 2009, 03:11 AM)
banning xboxes and taking away key thing should be illegal cuz its rendereing the value of the xboxes.
SOMEONE SUE THEM!!!!!!
NOW!!!!!!!!!
im banned ,and i most of the time played halo original, and because i had one bad odt rip i shall pepunished since i also have the original??
the neggaxbox have already scratched the shit out of my dvds so wht??
damn right someone should bc of their ban my xbox is permanatly stuck on E71 and E79 errors and if i do get passed it all my games freeze origional and backups. we paid for the hardware it is our property to do as we please with if we violated their online TOS then their ban is justified but disabling of ANY software or hardware of the xbox is in VIOLATION OF OUR RIGHTS
Post by: Miguell on November 12, 2009, 02:20:00 PM
They always do their job.
Last year they did it... And this year they did it to...
It means we get always fucked.. and of course we dont have any fuking chance..
Soon or later they we always get banned...
P.S: every backup was check before and after burned by abgx level 3. And before i download it wasnt nuked.
We dont have any chance...
Post by: mhouldey on November 12, 2009, 02:21:00 PM
QUOTE(cvdd1234 @ Nov 12 2009, 12:37 AM)
i dont download games and i want the right to back up my originals thats all, i should'nt get banned for doing it. ive had more than 5 games scratched to the point of never playing again due to the xbox 360 itself.
I agree. The thing is, how does one differentiate between people playing legitimate backuos and people playing pirated games? I mean, how would the technology work? I don't see how it can. They know this, therefore they just ban everyone, as it is probably the case that the vast majority are playing pirated copies.
Post by: Narbo on November 12, 2009, 02:30:00 PM
QUOTE(mhouldey @ Nov 12 2009, 10:21 PM)
I agree. The thing is, how does one differentiate between people playing legitimate backuos and people playing pirated games? I mean, how would the technology work? I don't see how it can. They know this, therefore they just ban everyone, as it is probably the case that the vast majority are playing pirated copies.
They don't/can't. That's what C4Eva means when he says the firmware is 'undetectable'. It behaves and responds in a manner identical to the original.
Unfortunately, by now I think it's pretty clear that Microsoft has developed some sort of software algorithm which can detect the presence of modified firmware. They do this by either querying the drive or by querying other system characteristics. If you can find even a single instance where the modified firmware consistently behaves different then the original (and it would appear they have) then it's game over.
Post by: Zod5000 on November 12, 2009, 04:10:00 PM
QUOTE(Narbo @ Nov 12 2009, 03:30 PM)
They don't/can't. That's what C4Eva means when he says the firmware is 'undetectable'. It behaves and responds in a manner identical to the original.
Unfortunately, by now I think it's pretty clear that Microsoft has developed some sort of software algorithm which can detect the presence of modified firmware. They do this by either querying the drive or by querying other system characteristics. If you can find even a single instance where the modified firmware consistently behaves different then the original (and it would appear they have) then it's game over.
That's what I figure. They might not be able to dump the firmware, but if they can send commands to the drive and it does something its not supposed to do, they'd be able identify the modded drive.
It brings up more questions:
1) can people who never used live for gaming avoid the ban.. ie never went on live without originals or backups in the drive. People who just went on live to buy arcade games or dlc. Which is where I fit in, and I wasn't banned as of Saturday. Which might still indicate the command MS is sending to the drive is disc related, allthough not dependent on a backup (might happen on original as well).
2) can a new firmware be written to close the bug. the fact a new firmware is on the works indicates it can. Which would seem to indicate they can't dump the firmware, as if they could dump it, a hash check would identify the firmware.
Post by: tracy2420 on November 12, 2009, 04:50:00 PM
Post by: BenJeremy on November 12, 2009, 05:03:00 PM
LOL....
Here's something for all the newbs asking to be unbanned.
I'll just be sitting here, don't bother asking me about this, either, because I think it's obvious.
(no, I didn't do this, either)
Post by: trentdadi on November 12, 2009, 05:24:00 PM
QUOTE(rastaman108037 @ Nov 11 2009, 03:21 AM)
Woah ho ho, hold on there cowboy. You're making a broad assumption there. Could you guess what that is?
You're assuming that if games were not pirated they would be bought. A simple suggestion that some people would want to play the game so much that they'd buy it if they had to. Assuming as such is blatantly wrong. I personally would go out and find out what this "social life" thing is before I would pay for 90% of those games. Being banned has made me consider the PS3 option, purely out of spite. I'm one of many.
Im not assuming, im giving sample figures.
Post by: gundamhr on November 12, 2009, 11:10:00 PM
QUOTE(BenJeremy @ Nov 12 2009, 02:45 AM)
I'm a bit troubled by several reports of unmodded consoles getting banned though.... that smacks of the infamous "angle bannings" that was not a foolproof method of detecting hacked drives (since legit drives with weaker optics could return a 360 angle). That would point to Microsoft using a group of timings to detect differences between drives, and they may be relying on ranges of values that simply aren't tight enough to exclude legitimate users with failing optical drives.
i hope this is true, if i remember correctly many people got unbanned due to this in the last ban wave, correct? although i find it hard to believe that 1 million people are going to be unbanned. so my logic tells me that even if a small amount were banned illegitimately then there is nothing we can do except wait for new fw.
Post by: SpikeMage on November 13, 2009, 02:07:00 AM
QUOTE(BenJeremy @ Nov 12 2009, 04:03 PM)
Unban your console (Link goes to demo, links to hack in video description)
LOL....
Here's something for all the newbs asking to be unbanned.
I'll just be sitting here, don't bother asking me about this, either, because I think it's obvious.
(no, I didn't do this, either)
LOL....
Here's something for all the newbs asking to be unbanned.
I'll just be sitting here, don't bother asking me about this, either, because I think it's obvious.
(no, I didn't do this, either)
But dude! It's "finding sectors..."! I don't know what a sector is but it's gona find them. this seems legit!
Post by: kdallas on November 13, 2009, 05:49:00 AM
QUOTE(haqtiq @ Nov 11 2009, 08:23 AM)
You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.
speaking of eggs... there are a few on C4Eva's face if indeed the modified firmware is detectable (by any means) which he has refuted on several occasions. (Detected / read / distinguishable / probed / logged.... all amounts to the same thing for the flamers that want to split hairs).
Post by: mhouldey on November 14, 2009, 06:09:00 AM
QUOTE(tracy2420 @ Nov 12 2009, 11:50 PM)
What really would be funny is if Windows was able to identify if a 360 drive was connected to the pc and then used some sort of algorithm to tie it to a database of code stored on their servers somewhere. It would then find some unique code and match it with your online profile. I know, its sounds crazy but what if?
LOL. That was a joke, right?
QUOTE(kdallas @ Nov 13 2009, 12:49 PM)
speaking of eggs... there are a few on C4Eva's face if indeed the modified firmware is detectable (by any means) which he has refuted on several occasions. (Detected / read / distinguishable / probed / logged.... all amounts to the same thing for the flamers that want to split hairs).
It's better to be very intelligent and have egg on your face, than be a stupid n00b, though. Cheers, kdallas.
Post by: kiwimods on November 14, 2009, 06:25:00 AM
QUOTE(kdallas @ Nov 14 2009, 01:49 AM)
speaking of eggs... there are a few on C4Eva's face if indeed the modified firmware is detectable (by any means) which he has refuted on several occasions. (Detected / read / distinguishable / probed / logged.... all amounts to the same thing for the flamers that want to split hairs).
why would there be eggs on his face? are these actual chicken eggs, fried or scrambled?
Would a rooster lay the eggs to be thrown at his face?
QUOTE(mhouldey @ Nov 15 2009, 02:09 AM)
LOL. That was a joke, right?
It's better to be very intelligent and have egg on your face, than be a stupid n00b, though. Cheers, kdallas.
this is good yes. :-)
Post by: kdallas on February 03, 2020, 08:29:00 AM
QUOTE(kiwimods @ Nov 14 2009, 10:25 PM)
Would a rooster lay the eggs to be thrown at his face?
who said anything about such violence? You must be confusing this with a theatre actor who gets rotten fruit (usually tomato) thrown at him.
With you being from Nuh Zilland however, I'll let this one slide (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
Google the phrase if you really must.
Post by: Bravo1 on November 17, 2009, 03:30:00 PM
This way M$ can report that they outsold last years number of consoles same quarter and make their shareholders happy.