Post by: Xbox-Scene on April 19, 2007, 09:43:00 PM
More Shops Sell Elite Early: Llamma Exposes New Motherboard Posted by XanTium | April 19 23:43 EST | News Category: Xbox360 |
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Full Story: llamma.com (incl. more details and pictures and an animated gif comparing old and new motherboard!) |
Post by: RiPpN-N-TrIppN on April 19, 2007, 09:08:00 PM
and its good to see that M$ is trying to fix the 3ROL even tho its a shitty fix at least they acknowledge the fact that its shit in the old boxes
hopefully it has the 65nm chip in it if so i want one
when are these bad boys getting released in Aus
Rip
Post by: mylakerye on April 19, 2007, 09:09:00 PM
and yes finally microsoft is starting to address the three red lights
Post by: poisonousjuice on April 19, 2007, 09:10:00 PM
Post by: WAB on April 19, 2007, 09:23:00 PM
Post by: pablot on April 19, 2007, 09:31:00 PM
Post by: a-ramsey on April 19, 2007, 09:33:00 PM
Post by: Nytemunkey on April 19, 2007, 09:35:00 PM
Post by: sicknasty413 on April 19, 2007, 09:57:00 PM
I want an Elite so bad!! Gahhhh
So..would this (Elite) 360 motherboard be a v1.1? Pretty substantial changes, I'd say.. Or..does it just not fall in the same category
Post by: fahrenheit on April 19, 2007, 09:57:00 PM
This is a damning testimony to the poor design of these boards. The Epoxy is little more than a bandage that does not cure the disease. Its inclusion says every word that MS themselves refuse to say because if there wasn't a problem, it wouldn't be there. This was their chance to do a real fix and use better quality PCB, but they've opted for the cheaper dab of glue 'fix'.
I'm thankful to those that are prepared to expose these types of shortcomings and inform the general populous who have no idea of what is happening under the hood.
Post by: 0794 on April 19, 2007, 09:58:00 PM
QUOTE(mylakerye @ Apr 19 2007, 10:16 PM) 
very interesting
and yes finally microsoft is starting to address the three red lights
just as in the original xbox, we will see the 360 continue to evolve and improve with cooler temperatures, quieter operation, and better durability - as well as improved functionality and features...way to go MS!
Post by: Tiuk on April 19, 2007, 09:59:00 PM
Post by: MadEx on April 19, 2007, 10:08:00 PM
Post by: RoboChicken on April 19, 2007, 10:08:00 PM
One of my customers have reported Elites here in one of the SD WalMarts. I'm about to go see for myself
Post by: protomind on April 19, 2007, 10:20:00 PM
Post by: belke on April 19, 2007, 10:24:00 PM
Post by: purepwnage12560 on April 19, 2007, 10:30:00 PM
Post by: PerfectGun on April 19, 2007, 10:57:00 PM
QUOTE(purepwnage12560 @ Apr 19 2007, 09:37 PM)
dont you think if they could they would have done something about it a long time ago?
That is a good point. Maybe they are just collecting console MAC addresses to Ban them from Live as well.
The better question is how do you have the new Rayman and it's not even out till the 24th?
(btw this is meant in humor and not accusing you of anything)
Post by: fahrenheit on April 19, 2007, 10:59:00 PM
QUOTE(belke @ Apr 20 2007, 04:31 PM)
as long as the epoxy keeps it from getting the 3ROD thats fine with me.. Why didn't anyone think of this before? seems kinda obvious
They have http://www.360resin.com/
The reason its not as widespread in use as you'd think is because it really isn't as great a fix as its made out to be. Without fixing the warping, they won't stop the rot.
Post by: epsilon72 on April 19, 2007, 11:06:00 PM
-65nm
-HDMI
-quiet drive like benq
-$400 price point
I think I'll wait 'till then to get one. I don't really care about firmware flashing.
Post by: pimpmaul69 on April 19, 2007, 11:14:00 PM
QUOTE(fahrenheit @ Apr 20 2007, 06:06 AM)
They have http://www.360resin.com/
The reason its not as widespread in use as you'd think is because it really isn't as great a fix as its made out to be. Without fixing the warping, they won't stop the rot.
if anyone reads my last post on the x-clamp thread they will see why i think this is a horrible idea.. and why warping isnt neccessarily the problem either
Post by: lawdawg0931 on April 20, 2007, 01:36:00 AM
QUOTE(epsilon72 @ Apr 20 2007, 12:13 AM)
-65nm
-HDMI
-quiet drive like benq
-$400 price point
All the bells & whistles don't mean jack if it still sports the stupid "X" clamps......
Even if they did put a little epoxy on the chips
Post by: kalle_19 on April 20, 2007, 01:49:00 AM
Post by: jimbobjim on April 20, 2007, 01:53:00 AM
QUOTE(PerfectGun @ Apr 20 2007, 05:31 AM)
Sounds like you can. Well, at least for now until the next Dash update. The fact MS is still using the same drive makes me think they have a software solution they are getting ready to unleash before some of their big power house games come out in May/June.
Or maybe it's because they still have piles of them left over.
Post by: jimbobjim on April 20, 2007, 02:46:00 AM
. It reminds me of a dodgy first time noob mod.You watch, in about 4 years the only 360's left working will be the ones that have been truly fixed (clamps replaced) by members of X-S.
Post by: bucko on April 20, 2007, 03:21:00 AM
Post by: RBJTech on April 20, 2007, 03:26:00 AM
On the other hand - if they changed the clamping method - that would publically ADMIT that the X clamps are crap ... so hmmm, not surprised either ...
Post by: jimbobjim on April 20, 2007, 03:50:00 AM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Apr 20 2007, 10:33 AM)
oh dear - I was hoping for a new clamping design ... glue the chip to the board - hmmm yea way to go MS. If the thermal expansion is enough to break a chemically bonded solder joint (well 100's of them actually) - what's the hope that it going to stop with 8 glue bonds ?
On the other hand - if they changed the clamping method - that would publically ADMIT that the X clamps are crap ... so hmmm, not surprised either ...
My thoughts exactly. If they did replace them it would cause alot of people with currently working consoles to question how much longer it will be before failiure, and would probably result in many people calling M$ for a free x-clamp replacement. Also replacing them would mean they are accepting full liability for the consoles failings and will no longer be able to blame people for not keeping it ventilated enough etc... This would result in people who paid through the nose to get their machine fixed calling up and demanding a refund. Basically the epoxy is a cheap low profile "fix" that won't cause uproar.
IMO
Post by: RBJTech on April 20, 2007, 04:23:00 AM
They have also managed to finally arrange the large capacitors at the top of the CPU (in the airflow guide) so they don't restrict airflow like they used to - well somebody is putting some thought into things .... 'bout time ...
Post by: jimbobjim on April 20, 2007, 04:37:00 AM
Unless i'm missing something? are they implementing the new technology to the GPU also? That baby gets very hot.
Post by: No.1 G on April 20, 2007, 04:56:00 AM
Post by: forzadude2 on April 20, 2007, 07:20:00 AM
If they were they would have a size difference.
If funny that the noobs at lammna or whatever didn't know this. It's kind of obvious.
Post by: nightmare84j28 on April 20, 2007, 07:21:00 AM
QUOTE(No.1 G @ Apr 20 2007, 12:03 PM)
My replacement 360 from microsoft has these epoxy around the GPU and CPU (it's a refurbished unit by the way)
Intresting! Maybe i should replace the thermal paste on mine and check for epoxy blobs too (mines a refurb)
Have you had any problems with your refurbished 360?
Post by: Xx The 0ne xX on April 20, 2007, 07:23:00 AM
alot of people are waiting for it.
Post by: RBJTech on April 20, 2007, 07:51:00 AM
QUOTE(forzadude2 @ Apr 20 2007, 02:27 PM)
Its easy to see by looking at the animated gif that it's not 65nm parts.
If they were they would have a size difference.
If funny that the noobs at lammna or whatever didn't know this. It's kind of obvious.
What has the size of the chip case or the die heat spreader got to do with the size of the silicon wafer inside the chip ?
The chip has the same number of pins which means it is the same physical size ...
The only way we are going to know if it's 65nM is to measure the current drawn on the unit - fairly easy to do - (well difficult for me coz I don't have an elite...) - the other clue is the number of power regulators which I've already posted about - if they have halved the number, then it's a good bet the CPU and/or GPU needs half the power (or enough to justify a single rather than parallel regulators) ..
Noobs @ Llamma - hmmmm...
Post by: majzor on April 20, 2007, 07:57:00 AM
Post by: davinator456 on April 20, 2007, 08:32:00 AM
QUOTE(openxdkman @ Apr 20 2007, 03:14 AM)
So... we have now an aligned offer on PS3's one : everything for $480(elite) + $149(used hd-dvd).
it is my understanding that the 360 elite does not support 5.1 pcm audio, only 2.1 pcm.
so having the hdmi port does not do anything from an audio standpoint.
the ps3 on the other hand, supports 7.1 pcm audio
Post by: epsilon72 on April 20, 2007, 08:44:00 AM
QUOTE(davinator456 @ Apr 20 2007, 07:39 AM)
it is my understanding that the 360 elite does not support 5.1 pcm audio, only 2.1 pcm.
so having the hdmi port does not do anything from an audio standpoint.
the ps3 on the other hand, supports 7.1 pcm audio
That's correct - if your display accepts 1080p through VGA, there's not that much point to having HDMI on the 360.
Post by: eatshitanddie on April 20, 2007, 09:12:00 AM
Anyway, nice pictures.
Post by: bucko on April 20, 2007, 09:21:00 AM
QUOTE(davinator456 @ Apr 20 2007, 03:39 PM)
it is my understanding that the 360 elite does not support 5.1 pcm audio, only 2.1 pcm.
so having the hdmi port does not do anything from an audio standpoint.
the ps3 on the other hand, supports 7.1 pcm audio
That's cause the Elite is HDMI 1.2, but it don't really matter, because MS provide a audio lead that directs output through the analogue AV port to your Audio system that probably doesn't support 7.1 anyway.
Post by: grim_d on April 20, 2007, 09:28:00 AM
QUOTE(bucko @ Apr 20 2007, 04:28 PM)
That's cause the Elite is HDMI 1.2, but it don't really matter, because MS provide a audio lead that directs output through the analogue AV port to your Audio system that probably doesn't support 7.1 anyway.
to further add, does the 360 not only output 5.1 dolby digital, and is that not something all games must comply with.
Post by: Are U Afraid on April 20, 2007, 10:44:00 AM
Post by: thejt on April 20, 2007, 10:50:00 AM
Now let me get real n00bish. Die size doesnt necessarily have jack to do with the actual lithographic process. If you reduce the surface area for heat disipation (the die) by half while reducing the power comsumption the same amount... you end up with the same relative temp situation right?? Chip manufactures have realized this... so use the new lithographic process.. keep larger surface area die and BAM.. more power efficient and more thermally efficient. A small change in die size is not where the cost savings is... the elimination of power regulation components like we see on this board is.
Here's a good article about the topic of Die size.Die Size and Heat Transfer
Again, Im not going to say for sure these are 65nm or not but I dont think just looking at the die is the end all be all.
One some other points. We have been in alot of 360's at Llamma and have worked with some larger refurbisment shops and have aquired alot of good information about the BGA 3ROL issue.
My personal opinion of the "clamps" is they are moot. They only hold the heatsink to the board long enough for it to be placed into the steel cage. They have absolutely no "clamping" value. Now.. the studs that the clamps clip to DO. These are crucial as they regulate the height of the mounted heatsink and provide ALL of the warp protection for the immediate area of the CPU/GPU (which is not enough).
After everything we have seen and done.. for us its beyond any question of doubt that the primary factors in the 3ROL issue is board warpage and the lack of lead in the solder. The two are a bad combination as we are finding.
Also, while I do think Microsoft would love to save some money and provide a cheaper lower power output power supply with the newer unit.. I dont think they have or will because it would really complicate matters. There would be mass confusion when people start plugging their unit in a a friends house and it doesnt work. I doubt we will see two different sku's.
Post by: bucko on April 20, 2007, 10:59:00 AM
QUOTE(Are U Afraid @ Apr 20 2007, 05:51 PM)
What type of HDD is that inside of the HDD casing? It looks like a Laptop HDD, I assume it not though right? What type of connections does it have? Is there a pic somewhere of the connections on the HDD?
The 360 HD has always been a 2.5" laptop hard drive, partly why a lot of moaning price people fail to realise it's a laptop hard drive. If you read the article it states it's a fujitsu drive.
Post by: Bladestorm on April 20, 2007, 11:40:00 AM
Post by: pimpmaul69 on April 20, 2007, 11:50:00 AM
QUOTE(epsilon72 @ Apr 20 2007, 03:51 PM)
That's correct - if your display accepts 1080p through VGA, there's not that much point to having HDMI on the 360.
if you have a tv that uses hdmi wouldnt that mean you should be wealthy enough to buy a surround sound that supports fiber optic.. i have 5.1 dolby digital on games and dvds and dts on any dts film just fine through fiber optic
Post by: 89c4l98 on April 20, 2007, 12:19:00 PM
QUOTE(kidman64 @ Apr 20 2007, 02:33 PM)
thejt: so do you think there's a permanent fix for 3rol? or x-clamp replacement is the best we can do? (besides thermal paste etc)
It would be funny if M$ starts doing the x-clamp replacement on new 360's
Post by: brywalker on April 20, 2007, 01:19:00 PM
QUOTE(bucko @ Apr 20 2007, 04:28 PM)
That's cause the Elite is HDMI 1.2...
Total cop out. My Toshiba HD-A1 was only 1.2 and it played advanced codecs just fine.
It's a software thing. They need to upgdade the HD DVD player software.
The HD-A1 only did 2 channel True HD when it came out. Fixed in a firmware update.
I blame lazy coders, not hardware limitations. We don't even have DTS output for the 360 yet.
BTW, I wonder if they revised the SB to be able to read the DVD firmware....
Post by: belke on April 20, 2007, 04:00:00 PM
Post by: No.1 G on April 20, 2007, 06:10:00 PM
QUOTE(nightmare84j28 @ Apr 20 2007, 02:28 PM)
Intresting! Maybe i should replace the thermal paste on mine and check for epoxy blobs too (mines a refurb)
Have you had any problems with your refurbished 360?
So far it's been good even tho soon as i received it i ripped it open and changed the thermal paste with AS5, but i only had the refurb unit for a week so lets see. My refurb unit was manufactured on 11/05, my original unit was manufactured on 10/06.
Post by: darkmike57 on April 20, 2007, 06:27:00 PM
Post by: forzadude2 on April 21, 2007, 04:36:00 AM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Apr 20 2007, 02:58 PM)
What has the size of the chip case or the die heat spreader got to do with the size of the silicon wafer inside the chip ?
The chip has the same number of pins which means it is the same physical size ...
The chip doesnt have a heat spreader in the animated gif.
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Apr 20 2007, 02:58 PM)
The only way we are going to know if it's 65nM is to measure the current drawn on the unit - fairly easy to do - (well difficult for me coz I don't have an elite...) - the other clue is the number of power regulators which I've already posted about - if they have halved the number, then it's a good bet the CPU and/or GPU needs half the power (or enough to justify a single rather than parallel regulators) ..
No, just lock at the size of the silicon. It's pretty easy to see that they have the same size.
Post by: RBJTech on April 21, 2007, 08:52:00 AM
QUOTE(forzadude2 @ Apr 21 2007, 11:43 AM)
The chip doesnt have a heat spreader in the animated gif.
No, just lock at the size of the silicon. It's pretty easy to see that they have the same size.
A heat spreader is a lump of metal that is used ON CHIP to spread heat to the HEATSINK. The actual wafer of silicon is probably no more that 5mm x 5mm - therefore it is irrelevent what size the heat spreader is - we cannot see how small the silicon wafer is ...
Post by: RBJTech on April 22, 2007, 05:21:00 AM
QUOTE(thejt @ Apr 20 2007, 05:57 PM)
My personal opinion of the "clamps" is they are moot. They only hold the heatsink to the board long enough for it to be placed into the steel cage. They have absolutely no "clamping" value. Now.. the studs that the clamps clip to DO. These are crucial as they regulate the height of the mounted heatsink and provide ALL of the warp protection for the immediate area of the CPU/GPU (which is not enough).
Can you explain this further - from the drawing below (which is obviously just a respresentation of the device) the 'spring' in the X clamp clearly presses UP on the bottom of the mainboard, thus pressing the die onto the FIXED heatsink from underneath. It's this single point of pressure directly under the die which allows the the outer perimeter to flex/warp due to heat - thus the OUTER BGU solder connections breaking - I think this was verified by some guys here with a BGU microscope tool.
I'd be interested in further views from Llama on this topic ...
Post by: RBJTech on April 23, 2007, 03:26:00 AM
Post by: mironicus on April 25, 2007, 04:03:00 AM
Post by: TGD on April 25, 2007, 07:43:00 PM
QUOTE(jimbobjim @ Apr 20 2007, 04:57 AM)
My thoughts exactly. If they did replace them it would cause alot of people with currently working consoles to question how much longer it will be before failiure, and would probably result in many people calling M$ for a free x-clamp replacement.
IMO
Like what people? The thousands that are into the technical side of 360's hardware design or the millions that are considered the average consumer that dont know diddly squat what a BGA is or an xclamp?
I tell you what.. the majority of my friends that own 360's dont have a clue to what has went wrong with their 360 and dont have a clue to how wide spread this issue really is. Its the computer savvy people that will notice these kind of design flaws...not the general consumer that owns a 360.
So i dont believe this is why MS didnt redesign their board, i find your assumption quite funny actually..no pun intended bro.. heck, for all we know, this littlle change in the mobo, even the epoxy on the chips is good enough to fix the heating issues,warping,etc.. none of us know yet, only time will tell.
Peace