Post by: grim_d on April 16, 2007, 06:21:00 PM
shame on his parents!
Post by: SpiderX1016 on April 16, 2007, 06:28:00 PM
Post by: capboy210 on April 16, 2007, 06:31:00 PM
I kept my xbox all sealed up just for this reason. Hopefully they will fix this problem free of charge.
Post by: Xx The 0ne xX on April 16, 2007, 06:37:00 PM
Post by: Master Reefed on April 16, 2007, 06:50:00 PM
Thats an expensive way to backup a disc eh? send in your old disc and proof of purchase, then for 20 dollars or so well give ya a brand new one.
I'd rather have DVD2XBOX360?
Post by: pacmaann2 on April 16, 2007, 06:51:00 PM
Post by: decapkris on April 16, 2007, 07:24:00 PM
Post by: zero129 on April 16, 2007, 07:27:00 PM
.BTW im just kidding.
Post by: nyarrgh on April 16, 2007, 07:33:00 PM
QUOTE(decapkris @ Apr 16 2007, 06:31 PM) 
The dude carrying out the tests moved the console to emphasize the vibrations only....well thats what I thought. Don't you peeps not find it a little worrying that when you buy the mentioned dvd drive separately you there is protective rubber around the lense? However I don't think MS should be to blame on this one if i is true since they don't make the drives themselves.
yes he did move the console to emphasize the vibrations only, but he still did it. The sticker on the DVD tray tells you not too. He also put lots of Scotch tape on one side of the disk to purposely make it unbalanced, but I think the moving of the console was the culprit in this "experiment". It would've been a better experiment if he did not move it, since we already know the results of moving your xbox360 while it's reading. If he didn't move it, at least he'll be able to say that unbalanced disks also causes scratches (if his experiments prove so). However, because he moved it, all he can say is he has proven the already known fact that moving your xbox360 while reading causes scratches.
Post by: ShadowmanX on April 16, 2007, 07:46:00 PM
1. Yes that kid should NOT be playing Gears of War, I'm fed up with Damned kids on there singing and having High pitched voices.
2. Radial scratches do happen unfortunately, it seems we finally have some reason (The Rubber pads around the Lens.) I've never had my 360 duff up disks luckally, but some aren't so lucky.
3. I would have liked to have seen a control experiment, and 2 other 360's set up in Vertical and Horizontal to remove the main reason for Radials, and just see if the radials are caused faster in Horizontal or Vertical (Or at all in the control experiment.)
4. Its a tad out of order on Microsoft to say "Ah yeah go for our disk replacement service! GIVE ME MONEY for our mistakes!", sure some gamers are to blame for duff disks, but a new deal should be struck up, if your 360 is causing the Radial scratches at no fault of your own (Hard to prove I know) they should replace the disk at the same time.
(Now just to plan that devious attack on the Euro repair center.... which is up the road
)
Post by: SpikeMage on April 16, 2007, 08:00:00 PM
QUOTE(grim_d @ Apr 17 2007, 01:28 AM)
maybe he shouldnt be playing M rated games then.
shame on his parents!
That's what I was thinking. That kid was like 10.
Post by: DMAddict on April 16, 2007, 08:19:00 PM
Post by: fahrenheit on April 16, 2007, 09:11:00 PM
It is clearly cheaper to put a plastic warning sticker over the DVD ROM drive than to put rubber around the lens.
Post by: capboy210 on April 16, 2007, 09:39:00 PM
QUOTE(fahrenheit @ Apr 16 2007, 10:18 PM)
The consoles are made as cheaply as possible.
It is clearly cheaper to put a plastic warning sticker over the DVD ROM drive than to put rubber around the lens.
Hahaha, That gave me a good laugh.
Post by: 47_M450N_47 on April 16, 2007, 10:26:00 PM
And yeah, that kid shouldn't be playing Gears, or even CoD for that matter, he was like 10 years old.
Post by: YUNG ERIC on April 16, 2007, 11:20:00 PM
The only time I moved my 360 when it was on was when I scratched my GOW disc.
For anyone that got the ring on there disc I recommend Madcatz disc repair. $25 fixed my GOW disc plus its reusable vs $20 each damaged disc.
anyone in the houston area want to do a controlled experiment? need 1 samsung (I have one) and 2 hitachi. I'l see what my friends have and see if I can do one. and if anyon has a benq then that would be cool too.
Post by: BoNg420 on April 16, 2007, 11:33:00 PM
Post by: BoNg420 on April 16, 2007, 11:43:00 PM
QUOTE(Chronic Mitosis @ Apr 17 2007, 01:41 AM)
Just from the xbox-scene forums I alone have seen a lot of problematic 360's. Seems to be "If it ain't one thing, its the mother f$#king other." I want a god damn 360, but shit like this is why I haven't bought one.
It sucks, the system has so much potential and so many problems.
Its not like the system has an incredible failure rate. Some people may 'abuse" their system. So it ends up breaking. There is only really a small % of people who have failed systems. Some people have launch systems that still work great. I know a few people.
Post by: feflicker on April 17, 2007, 12:02:00 AM
By FINALLY, and VERY old news, I refer to the fact that this same problem plagues Sammy's on the Xbox 1 as well! I've seen ~20 Xbox 1 Sammys doing this same thing over the years, including (2) that I have owned.
I have witnessed my old 360 (launch) do this a couple of times as well (only on backups though). I don't have that machine anymore, it eventually gave me the red lights of death and I got a new console.
My hypothesis has always been that it was the lens. I believe the reason is that the laser gets weak over time and the lens moves closer and closer to the disc to try and read it. Eventually the lens actually comes into contact with the disc and scratches it.
Post by: gee360 on April 17, 2007, 01:06:00 AM
Post by: comradpoplin on April 17, 2007, 01:15:00 AM
all in all this feels like old news around these parts, theres been speculation and fixes for this since the release of the console but all thirdparty and the only real way this can be sorted is by m$.
m$ are starting to think they are the not so secret service deny everything, id like to see figures on double sales of games because of replacemants due to his defect i know its impossible but it would be intresting to see how much has been waisted replacing these games before m$ trade back service started wich is still a rip because you have to pay for there defect still, its just a bit cheaper
Post by: andi_06 on April 17, 2007, 01:33:00 AM
Its like me buying a brand new car then having a major engine fault and people going well you should have waited for the new model, it just doesnt work like that. Is it no one has the money to take on these crooks, or are they just above the law ?
Post by: LordX on April 17, 2007, 01:38:00 AM
QUOTE(Xx The 0ne xX @ Apr 17 2007, 02:44 AM)
Only samsung drives have this problem? if so im glad i have a hitachi
No, both drives useing Sanyo Lasers , exactly same model.
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 17, 2007, 01:51:00 AM
Post by: d-range on April 17, 2007, 02:08:00 AM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Apr 17 2007, 09:58 AM)
The circular scratches come from moving the console from a hoizontal to a vertical position, or visa versa, with a game already in the drive. It doesn't even have to be powered on to cause the damage when rotating the console, but when it is turned on again, the disc will usually get scratched. This is old news that even MS gives a warning label on the system for. That being said, I think it is rather ridiculous that turning a video game console from vert to horiz with a game in the drive would scratch a disc. MS should have resolved this before launching the console.
This is not about scratching caused by moving the console with a spinning disc in it. In the TV show they did mention that there was a warning label on it, and that you should not move it while in operation because it might scratch the disc. Still, they got somewhere around 1000 complaints of people with scratched discs who *did not* move their console and were able to reproduce the scratches on multiple machines, without touching them.
If you check the 10-year old kid who plays GoW and GRAW (yes, I think that's ridiculous as well), he has his 360 in something like a wooden stand, on one of the higher drawers. I can imagine the whole thing might resonate (maybe unnoticable by eye) with the insane spinning of the drive, and therefore cause the scratching. All-in-all it does not really look like a 'stable base' for a 360 console. Still, I think it should *not* scratch discs when mounted like that. It's a game console, also used by kids, in small cabinets, tucked between 100s of cables and other devices etc. etc. It should just not scratch discs in such an environment. I know for a fact that portable CD/DVD players don't do that, PC DVD drives don't do that, etc.
Post by: psychy on April 17, 2007, 02:32:00 AM
no doubt, M$ knows for sure what the problem is. but why spending money when you can lie and blame the customer. but hey, that's M$
Post by: CreV- on April 17, 2007, 02:52:00 AM
I can clearly see marks on all my bought games.
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 17, 2007, 03:07:00 AM
QUOTE(d-range @ Apr 17 2007, 02:15 AM)
This is not about scratching caused by moving the console with a spinning disc in it. In the TV show they did mention that there was a warning label on it, and that you should not move it while in operation because it might scratch the disc.
Yet that is exactly what the ding dong did, move the 360 from horizontal to vertical while the game was spinning. The out come was a given at that point. So his evidence was worthless.
Post by: Winchy on April 17, 2007, 04:19:00 AM
I bet the kid is just lying. He just ripped it all open, didn't read the label then started playing and moved his console about, and now his mum is outraged and all that nonsense and trying to change the world and get everyone involved. Kids will lie and put on the water works despite you knowing they've done something. For example I broke my mum's computer by putting the voltage on 111v instead of 230v when I was younger.. it was repaired free because I hadn't changed the voltage
Another example being my little brother wrote "YOU ARE GAY" on my back door when he was about 8 but still denies it to this day. I don't think me or my mum would have an 8 year old's handwriting.
I'm glad that I won't be meeting this kid in my Gears matches though.
Post by: quall on April 17, 2007, 04:34:00 AM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Apr 17 2007, 03:58 AM)
The circular scratches come from moving the console from a hoizontal to a vertical position, or visa versa, with a game already in the drive. It doesn't even have to be powered on to cause the damage when rotating the console, but when it is turned on again, the disc will usually get scratched. This is old news that even MS gives a warning label on the system for. That being said, I think it is rather ridiculous that turning a video game console from vert to horiz with a game in the drive would scratch a disc. MS should have resolved this before launching the console.
This is a perfect example of someone who posts without reading any part of the thread other than the title, and probably didn't even watch the video.
Post by: jelle25 on April 17, 2007, 04:35:00 AM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Apr 17 2007, 11:14 AM)
Yet that is exactly what the ding dong did, move the 360 from horizontal to vertical while the game was spinning. The out come was a given at that point. So his evidence was worthless.
you aren't very bright are you... that test was only to see which position was more stable with the unstable CD in it
QUOTE
M$ just sucks. the x360 is a great gaming console, but every thing else... M$ doesn't give a damn about customers as long they get $ and don't have to fear bad reputation due to such news.
exactly.. .they don't give a damn.. even after this, a solid proof, they could care less..
MS is just friggin annoying, playing monopoly position
their helpdesk totally sucks
they don't wanna admit they're wrong..
since obviously there are more then 1000 of 360 owners in holland only with discscratching problems
first they say : "discs can't be scratched, if console is stable"
after complaints of Kassa they say : "because of thorough play, discs can be scratched"
Post by: grim_d on April 17, 2007, 04:40:00 AM
Post by: batmike1990 on April 17, 2007, 05:21:00 AM
QUOTE(grim_d @ Apr 17 2007, 01:28 AM)
maybe he shouldnt be playing M rated games then.
shame on his parents!
my thoughts exactly!!!!!!!!!
i remember back in the days of ps1, i was never allowed a 18+, and if lucky enough only play it around me parents
age ratings are there for a damn good reason!
Post by: armijn on April 17, 2007, 05:44:00 AM
QUOTE(batmike1990 @ Apr 17 2007, 11:28 AM)
my thoughts exactly!!!!!!!!!
i remember back in the days of ps1, i was never allowed a 18+, and if lucky enough only play it around me parents
age ratings are there for a damn good reason!
in the netherlands they have other rules for that, when you buy a game they dont even look if you are 18+ or not
Post by: Diekund on April 17, 2007, 06:32:00 AM
Post by: cyclone_storm on April 17, 2007, 06:53:00 AM
Post by: liberate on April 17, 2007, 06:54:00 AM
Post by: cyclone_storm on April 17, 2007, 07:26:00 AM
FIRST READ THAN POST.
Post by: The Zep Man on April 17, 2007, 07:28:00 AM
QUOTE(batmike1990 @ Apr 17 2007, 01:28 PM)
my thoughts exactly!!!!!!!!!
i remember back in the days of ps1, i was never allowed a 18+, and if lucky enough only play it around me parents
age ratings are there for a damn good reason!
Someone I know was in the 'States recently and watched in surprise as a parent was moving her hands over the eyes of her children on the beach, just because an older woman was changing clothes 100 meters away. She was topless for only a few seconds and even turned her back to them when she changed. Still, the mother looked in utter disgust while she pushed her children the other way, forcing them not to watch.
Ratings are fun, especially if you believe in them. Most people in the USA do. I believe in common sense. Nipples do not harm people, guns do not harm people and violent video games do not harm people. People harm people.
Post by: cypher21 on April 17, 2007, 08:51:00 AM
QUOTE(SpikeMage @ Apr 17 2007, 04:07 AM)
That's what I was thinking. That kid was like 10.
yeah, you;'ve got a point as mentioned before.
But it could have been the Viva Pinata disc so stop wining about it and stay on topic.
I have a samsung drive and no probs so far. In Holland a game costs 69,95 so that's a real pity if the drive screws up your game and you don't get a new one
Post by: gli7ch on April 17, 2007, 08:52:00 AM
Post by: burnt01 on April 17, 2007, 12:08:00 PM
When something is spinning it turns into a gyro and wants to stay spinning in the same possition, when you move the xbox the disk stays vert as long as it can before it hits something (the laser) causing the scraches
If you noticed it was quite a heavy ring at the same width as the lens so this happen all at the same time (when tilted) if it was caused by vibrating it would be done over time across a wider area!!
Post by: erexx on April 17, 2007, 12:32:00 PM
We cannot confirm nor deny it
But if it does we will replace it.
Perfect PR.
No one speaks better out of both sides of their mouths than M$
Post by: johnnyrico on April 17, 2007, 12:34:00 PM
I'm gonna send a peppered mail to those dumbasses.
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 17, 2007, 12:36:00 PM
QUOTE(quall @ Apr 17 2007, 04:41 AM)
This is a perfect example of someone who posts without reading any part of the thread other than the title, and probably didn't even watch the video.
Rub your two brain cells together next time before coming to a conclusion.
QUOTE(jelle25 @ Apr 17 2007, 04:42 AM)
you aren't very bright are you... that test was only to see which position was more stable with the unstable CD in it.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious of what he said. The point is he moved the 360 from horizontal to vert when a game was spinning, and then opening up the console to show the proof that the lens scratched the disc. Well no crap it is going to be scratched if he rotates the console with the disc spinning; we already knew about this outcome over a year ago. And placing pads around the lens prevents the lens for scratching th disc was also proved a long time ago. His evidence does not prove that discs can be scratched by the lens with the system has not been moved from horz to vert, plain and simple. I'm not saying discs cannot be stratched in this way, just that his evidence does not prove to the contrary. Try using common sense next time; i realize it's rarely used with the youth.
Post by: ThUgLoVe on April 17, 2007, 02:09:00 PM
just set your 360 up and leave it be.
Post by: spinr34 on April 17, 2007, 02:56:00 PM
Post by: feflicker on April 17, 2007, 03:26:00 PM
There are (3) things going on here people!
1) The system scratched discs without them ever moving the console. The mother/son repeatedly said that they have never moved the system. Their disc got scratched with the console simply sitting in a horizontal position. This is FACT. Even if you have not seen this personally, I, and many others, have seen drives do this. In my case I have witnessed a large quantity of Xbox 1 drives do this exact same thing! Trust me, no one was moving the Xbox 1 to vertical either!
2) The investigators run a test to see which direction makes more noise with an unbalanced disc (remember the tape). Vertical was worse than horizontal. This was just to get an idea of which orientation is more stable. (Suprise, everyone knows vertical is going to be less stable...)
3) With the test disc that was unbalanced they try and located (using the black marker residue) where exactly it was hitting, and low and behold it was the laser. This proves that the laser itself is the only thing in the drive that can be scratching the discs, it is the only thing the disc touched, other than the plastic from the tray itself.
LESSONS: Never move console with game in (we know this already), it is better to have your system horizontal than vertical (we already knew this too), and some drives do scratch discs, whether you move the system or not.
Post by: The Zep Man on April 17, 2007, 10:12:00 PM
QUOTE(ShadowmanX @ Apr 17 2007, 11:34 PM)
But times are different from when we were younger to the generation and society today. Since people like Jack Thompson exist and the media's eye constantly looks over games such as Manhunt and Grand Theft Auto, people must start taking notice of these age ratings since they are there for a reason.
America... America... this is you.
Post by: Djpj on April 17, 2007, 11:47:00 PM
They moved the console with a disc in it just by what part of the drive the disc COULD be damaged.
And BTW there are 2 other episodes of 'Kassa', the dutch consumer programme. I've seen all of them, and in the other one they've got 1000s of people in the Netherlands who got this problem.
In that episode they test it without moving the 360. They set up 8 360s and gamed for 5 hours straight. On 2 or 3 discs were scratches found.
And I heard M$ in the Netherlands replace discs free of charge
Good news for me
Post by: TreyTable on April 18, 2007, 07:46:00 AM
QUOTE(spinr34 @ Apr 17 2007, 04:03 PM)
i mean, you guys can't tell me you didn't play mortal kombat on the genesis (with the blood code) or night trap or any other game that caused parents to get all heated. it's just games people, get over it. let parents advise their children. when you're a parent, you can advise your own.
I played Mortal Kombat on the SNES. I beat the sweat out of those guys. Then I took it back to Blockbuster.
QUOTE(erexx @ Apr 17 2007, 01:39 PM)
I love it.
We cannot confirm nor deny it
But if it does we will replace it.
Perfect PR.
No one speaks better out of both sides of their mouths than M$
If they deny it, and it happens again, they will lose face. If they confirm it, then people will decide to buy PlayStation 3s instead of XBOX 360s.
Post by: THEsirloin on April 18, 2007, 08:53:00 AM
Look at it this way, game is in perfect condition for all it's working life it can always be used (no need for a new copy) and can be resold through second hand retailers (M$ get NO cut and loose customers who would have bought it new)
Or
The games get lightly marked therefore second hand retailers won't touch and worst case senario we get to sell another copy to the customer using our crap disk replacement policy...
Well sums it up for me... all hardware is now built to fail!! not to last or it won't get replaced...
Post by: johnnyrico on April 20, 2007, 02:08:00 PM
QUOTE(feflicker @ Apr 17 2007, 11:33 PM)
1/2 the people posting here get it, and understand the demonstration. The other 1/2 seemed to watch an entirely different clip and got "distracted" when they did the test which involved moving the console.
There are (3) things going on here people!
1) The system scratched discs without them ever moving the console. The mother/son repeatedly said that they have never moved the system. Their disc got scratched with the console simply sitting in a horizontal position. This is FACT. Even if you have not seen this personally, I, and many others, have seen drives do this. In my case I have witnessed a large quantity of Xbox 1 drives do this exact same thing! Trust me, no one was moving the Xbox 1 to vertical either!
I reckon the mother isn't in the kid's room while he's playing, it only takes a bit of frustration and a kick against something to cause movement.
and than I didn't even start ranting about what a spoilt brat he actually is, his parents GAVE him a 360 cause he couldn't keep patient enough for the PS3
QUOTE(feflicker @ Apr 17 2007, 11:33 PM)
2) The investigators run a test to see which direction makes more noise with an unbalanced disc (remember the tape). Vertical was worse than horizontal. This was just to get an idea of which orientation is more stable. (Suprise, everyone knows vertical is going to be less stable...)
3) With the test disc that was unbalanced they try and located (using the black marker residue) where exactly it was hitting, and low and behold it was the laser. This proves that the laser itself is the only thing in the drive that can be scratching the discs, it is the only thing the disc touched, other than the plastic from the tray itself.
LESSONS: Never move console with game in (we know this already), it is better to have your system horizontal than vertical (we already knew this too), and some drives do scratch discs, whether you move the system or not.
all the things the investigators did was already known to the scene, they basically did no advance research and just went about bashing a product, blaming MS instead of the discdrive manufacturer, and made their program look like it's made by jackasses.