Post by: dokworm on February 22, 2007, 08:55:00 PM
We seem to be seeing consoles where the motherboard has flexed and a few of the solder balls or pads have given way at the corner of the CPU or GPU as pointed out by SMTRework and others.
Now why would a motherboard flex?
The answer is the heatsink clamp design.
If you look at the clamp design, *all* of the pressure to hold the heatsink down is in one tiny point. The centre of the X clamp has a plastic 'spacer button' that sits hard against the bottom of the motherboard and that causes all of the stress to push upwards (towards the bottom centre of both the GPU and the CPU.)
What is the reaction to that upward force? the corners of the motherboard flexing in the opposite direction.
Because the motherrboard is not screwed down to the chassis in the areas around the CPU and GPU the natural reaction is for the board to flex downwards slightly because of the pressure in the middle pushing upwards.
When the console gets hot, the solder balls may become slightly softer allowing the board to flex further and the break occurs.
Even if the soldering was perfect the poor design of the heatsink clamps means the corners of the CPU and GPU are going to be under tension.
So perhaps the fix would be to remove the clamps altogether, fit 'screw in' pegs to the chassis and screw down the motherboard and the heatsink so rather than tension being on the board to flex, it is actually encouraged to stay flat. The existing holes in the board where the clamp attached would be ideal.
So extra cooling and other measures may not do squat unless you remove the tension of the giant pimple trying to push up from the bottom.
Post by: oZKa on February 22, 2007, 09:00:00 PM
all of this is so true, i've read about this many times though
Post by: dokworm on February 26, 2007, 03:58:00 AM
Post by: RBJTech on February 26, 2007, 05:15:00 AM
....
So what are you using to apply pressure onto the die if you've got rid of the x clamps .. ?
This post has been edited by RBJTech: Feb 26 2007, 01:25 PM
Post by: dogdirt2000 on February 26, 2007, 10:45:00 AM
QUOTE(dokworm @ Feb 23 2007, 04:02 AM) 
After reading some of the excellent detective work here re the red lights of death and going over the couple of dead consoles here with a microscope, I've come to the conclusion that in most cases the red lights of death is due to a simple design flaw, not to overheating or poor soldering.
We seem to be seeing consoles where the motherboard has flexed and a few of the solder balls or pads have given way at the corner of the CPU or GPU as pointed out by SMTRework and others.
Now why would a motherboard flex?
The answer is the heatsink clamp design.
If you look at the clamp design, *all* of the pressure to hold the heatsink down is in one tiny point. The centre of the X clamp has a plastic 'spacer button' that sits hard against the bottom of the motherboard and that causes all of the stress to push upwards (towards the bottom centre of both the GPU and the CPU.)
What is the reaction to that upward force? the corners of the motherboard flexing in the opposite direction.
Because the motherrboard is not screwed down to the chassis in the areas around the CPU and GPU the natural reaction is for the board to flex downwards slightly because of the pressure in the middle pushing upwards.
When the console gets hot, the solder balls may become slightly softer allowing the board to flex further and the break occurs.
Even if the soldering was perfect the poor design of the heatsink clamps means the corners of the CPU and GPU are going to be under tension.
So perhaps the fix would be to remove the clamps altogether, fit 'screw in' pegs to the chassis and screw down the motherboard and the heatsink so rather than tension being on the board to flex, it is actually encouraged to stay flat. The existing holes in the board where the clamp attached would be ideal.
So extra cooling and other measures may not do squat unless you remove the tension of the giant pimple trying to push up from the bottom.
i agree with you for the most-part as i have had this problem with my 360 before. However, i do not think the main cause of the motherboard flexing is from the Heatsink clamps unless there are abnormalities in the shaping and design of the heatsink and/or x-clamp, which may shift the pressure point "off-center".
Like you said, "The centre of the X clamp has a plastic 'spacer button' that sits hard against the bottom of the motherboard and that causes all of the stress to push upwards". But because the clamp is only physically attached the heatsink on the otherside off the mobo and nothing else, the same force is exerted back through to the pressure point caused by the X clamp as stated by Newton's third law of reciprocal actions (For every action force there is an equal, but opposite reaction).
So to go over that again, the center point of the x-clamp exerts an upwards force on the motherboard, which in turn causes the attached heatsink to be pulled downwards with exactly the same force as the upwards force (assuming the heatsink and x-clamp are perfectly 'shaped' and manufactured). Seeing that the heatsink applies pressure on top of the cpu/gpu, and the x-clamp applies pressure underneath the cpu/gpu, i don't believe the x-clamp and heatsink design are to be the blame........
.......unless (like what mentioned a second ago) there are even minor abnormalities in the shaping of the heatsink and/or x-clamp, which may shift the pressure point "off-center" (eg, if one of the four heatsink clamping pins is ever so slightly different in height to the other three, then the pressure point applied by the heatsink and the x-clamp will not match.....and that's where you may get problems), which means a manufacturing flaw, etc other than a design flaw.
This post has been edited by dogdirt2000: Feb 26 2007, 06:47 PM
Post by: dogdirt2000 on February 26, 2007, 10:57:00 AM
(apologies for my stupidness)
Post by: dokworm on February 28, 2007, 12:17:00 AM
It is a design flaw as the motherboard area around the CPU and GPU absolutely should be screwed through to the case (via pegs/standoffs) to keep that area of board flat as a tack.
With the heat and airflow on that thing, a single pressure point clamp, and a motherboard only secured via the corners is a recipe for disaster.
A simple design with the mobo secured to the case at the four points around the perimeter of both the CPU and GPU solves the problem. It is just poor design.
Mine is still glitch free so far.
To be clearer it is a combination effect of the x clamp system *and* the motherboard effectively floating that combines to cause the problem.
I can't believe they didn't really lock the mobo down to the case similar to a PC, especially on something designed to run vertically.
Post by: fahrenheit on February 28, 2007, 03:01:00 AM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the CPU heatsink's weight+heat+horizontal orientation is what finished my unit off. With the front right of my GPU slightly higher than all other corners, a downward movement of the board under the CPU is highly possible.
I've done away with the X-clamps, but I'm far from done with redesigning the mounting. I have a 0020 error to overcome also, so it might take a while, but I've been taking pictures every step of the way and will post them up when I'm happy I've made progress.
Post by: Spawman1926 on February 28, 2007, 06:50:00 AM
Post by: Helliano on February 28, 2007, 10:52:00 AM
QUOTE(Spawman1926 @ Feb 28 2007, 02:57 PM)
Please do post some pics cause I dont even know what the GPU is. I really wanna try what you guys are suggesting if it did indeed work.
GPU means Graphic Processing Unit, which explains what it stand for, its basicly the brain of the graphics.
Post by: dokworm on February 28, 2007, 05:29:00 PM
QUOTE(fahrenheit @ Feb 28 2007, 11:08 AM)
With the weight of the CPU heatsink, I think it needs to have a standoff beneath it which will replace the center of the X-clamp. Although the standoff shouldn't apply upward pressure, it needs to be there inorder to prevent the center of the CPU part of the board from drouping.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the CPU heatsink's weight+heat+horizontal orientation is what finished my unit off. With the front right of my GPU slightly higher than all other corners, a downward movement of the board under the CPU is highly possible.
I've done away with the X-clamps, but I'm far from done with redesigning the mounting. I have a 0020 error to overcome also, so it might take a while, but I've been taking pictures every step of the way and will post them up when I'm happy I've made progress.
I agree, I put a plastic 'peg' under the middle of the CPU as a support to keep that whole section of the board nice and flat.
Does anyone make aftermarket heatsinks for the 360? It would be nice to get some real copper designs with proper clamps and board support from one of the 3rd party vendors and then we could kiss this problem goodbye for everybody.
Post by: Elemino on March 01, 2007, 03:49:00 PM
If this issue was caused by the board flexing, how come it does not affect PCs? These days, heat sinks are getting heavier and chunkier all the time. Some of the large ones made by Cooler Master and such companies are huge. They hold on to a processor and board and dangle that weight horizontally. They've gotten so large that some need bracing that goes on the under side of the board to keep the heatsink from ripping the socket off the board. To add to that, in my PC I'm using Cooler Master's Aqua Gate Mini (Seen below) and the pump/heatsink that sits on the processor has a bracing that goes underneither to CPU to litteraly sandwhich, hold and apply force to the CPU to make sure it has good contact as well as a secure mount.
This post has been edited by Elemino: Mar 1 2007, 11:50 PM
Post by: bojngles on March 01, 2007, 08:12:00 PM
Post by: dokworm on March 01, 2007, 10:08:00 PM
QUOTE(Elemino @ Mar 1 2007, 11:56 PM)
I'm not discounting your theory or anything, just trying to help come up with the right answer. So please don't take this the wrong way.
If this issue was caused by the board flexing, how come it does not affect PCs? These days, heat sinks are getting heavier and chunkier all the time. Some of the large ones made by Cooler Master and such companies are huge. They hold on to a processor and board and dangle that weight horizontally. They've gotten so large that some need bracing that goes on the under side of the board to keep the heatsink from ripping the socket off the board. To add to that, in my PC I'm using Cooler Master's Aqua Gate Mini (Seen below) and the pump/heatsink that sits on the processor has a bracing that goes underneither to CPU to litteraly sandwhich, hold and apply force to the CPU to make sure it has good contact as well as a secure mount.
I'm all for discussing the whys and why nots to try and get the proper answer.
There are multiple reasons you don't get the problem on PCs.
1) The PC mainboard is properly secured to the baseplate via pegs/standoffs at multiple points across the board. This keeps the board nice and flat and prevents warping. On the 360 the board is only secured around the edges leaving it lots of room to warp and flex.
2) Most of the PC heatsink clamping methods I have seen put the clamping pressure *outside* the perimeter of the CPU, i.e. it attaches to the board or baseplate at 4 anchor points which surround the chip(which is what should be done on the 360) i.e. the clamp pressure is not focussed on the bottom side of the board under the centre of the CPU.
If the CPU/GPU was just a flat plate that sat directly on the board perhaps you wouldn't get as much of a problem, but the CPU/GPU sit above the board on top of the solder balls. So there is an air gap and therefore no equivalent downwards pressure from the top.
So the upwards pressure point under the centre of the CPU/GPU does not have the CPU/GPU sitting hard against the top of the board so the board wants to flex upwards at the centre point (towards the chips) causing the rest of the board to want to flex downwards (away from the chips).
You can simulate the effect quite easily and see it happen.
Clamping the chip down properly (like on a PC) and securing the boards properly (like on a PC) makes the problem go away.
Last night I put the original clamps back on and had the ring of death within 20 minutes, put my PC style clamps back on and played for the rest of the night without incident. I fired it up again today and it is still running just fine.
So it is looking like the culprit, but really I will only know if my 360 is still running in 6 months time I guess.
Post by: fahrenheit on March 01, 2007, 10:27:00 PM
You have to factor in the quality of the PCB that is used to produce the 360 motherboards. Its poor. Some PC motherboards cost more than the 360 itself and are of far higher quality componentry. The 360 is a high volume, mass produced product that is made as cheaply as possible because it is made at a loss to the supplier (MS).
You aren't comparing apples with apples.
Post by: dokworm on March 03, 2007, 10:41:00 PM
QUOTE(fahrenheit @ Mar 2 2007, 06:34 AM)
@Elemino -
You have to factor in the quality of the PCB that is used to produce the 360 motherboards. Its poor. Some PC motherboards cost more than the 360 itself and are of far higher quality componentry. The 360 is a high volume, mass produced product that is made as cheaply as possible because it is made at a loss to the supplier (MS).
You aren't comparing apples with apples.
True, so even *more* reason to peg the board down properly to prevent flexing.
I still haven't had a single problem since replacing the clamping mechanism - so far so good.
Post by: dokworm on March 06, 2007, 03:56:00 PM
50% more air moved, drawing less current *and* making less noise sounds like a good deal.
Post by: dokworm on March 08, 2007, 02:39:00 PM
QUOTE(dokworm @ Mar 7 2007, 12:03 AM) 
I have ordered the talismoon replacement rear fans though, better to be safe than sorry
50% more air moved, drawing less current *and* making less noise sounds like a good deal.
Still not a single glitch since replacing the heatsink clamps, had a 15hr straight session with GoW, and my eyes are now bleeding but the console is fine
I put the talismoon fans in and they are just GREAT.
I also got the XCM fan , but it sucks hairy balls, doesn't move much air and sounds like a hurricane
Post by: dokworm on March 09, 2007, 10:16:00 PM
Post by: steddyman on March 10, 2007, 05:48:00 AM
Can you take a picture for us to make it clearer what is involved?
Thanks
Post by: swdxr12 on March 10, 2007, 10:23:00 AM
Post by: alucard_xs on March 10, 2007, 12:46:00 PM
this debate seems interesting
please share your thougts and post some pics Thanks
Post by: dokworm on March 10, 2007, 05:35:00 PM
QUOTE(swdxr12 @ Mar 10 2007, 06:30 PM)
Hi, I have tried a similar method to yours (using screws and nuts to secure the heatsink and motherboard to the case) and have fixed the 3 red lights but occasionally I still get freezing problems. It seems that you are having a good success rate and I am interested in applying your technique to see if I can fix the screen freezes. Please can you post pictures so that I can copy EXACTLY what you have done.
Next 360 I fix I'll take some pictures, I will need to borrow a camera.
Steddyman, by pegs I mean like on a PC motherboard. You have brass pegs (or plastic spacers) between the PC case and the motherboard. i.e. the things you screw the motherboard onto, that keep it up off the case.
To give more detail, basically I find the faulty balls, reflow so that they are not faulty any more. Then apply new thermal paste and spacer dots to the corners of the two chips (to apply some pressure from the heatsink onto the corners of the chips. I got the idea from old athlon chips where they used to do this)
Then drill holes in the baseplate and put motherboard support pegs into the base metal plate of the case I sue plastic ones cut to size. I put rubber 'cone' supports under the centre of the GPU and CPU (between the metal baseplate and the bottom of the mobo)
I then screw down the heatsinks and use spring washers so that I can tighten and then ease off a bit so as not to overtighten. I fit talismoon fans at the back to help keep the heat under control and in some cases fit a fan to the CPU cooling tower. (I tried the XCM fan but it is insanely loud).
I would love one of the aftermarket companies to release a kit to do something like this so you could do it to your 360 *before* it fails.
I'm not claiming this is the perfect solution, just that it has worked so far on 360s where the towel fix or toothpick fix or airgun fix only gave a really short term fix.
Things I haven't done but think I should are fit bigger feet to the 360 to get ventilation in from underneath, and put some ventilation in the top.
But I'd like a clear case so I could follow the airflow with a fogger to make sure the mods were actually moving the air where it should go and not amking the situation worse.
Post by: steddyman on March 11, 2007, 10:37:00 AM
It would be fantastic if you could do a step by step process including photos that we could put up in the tutorial section.
When you said you reball them, are you doing that using a soldering iron or are you simply reflowing with a heatgun?
I already have the Talismoon fans fitted and the XCM fan (yes its LOUD) and also a laptop cooler sat underneath. It does lockup less than it used to, but it still locks and went three times in two hours the other night.
Where are you based? I wondering if this is something you could offer me as a service. I'm in the UK.
Post by: dokworm on March 11, 2007, 04:04:00 PM
I don't reball them, I just reflow if I can. I went and bought a cheap ($150) rework station, but I have actually found I sometimes get better results by just running it with the fans off and a bit of weight on the corner of the chips.
You can tell by looking close up wether the solder has remelted or not.
If it is still locking up I'd recheck your thermal paste is still good, if you don't lap the heatsink the CPU needs a lot of paste, the ones I have seen are really rough. I'd also try to see on your board exactly which connections are faulty and try to reflow somehow if you can.
Post by: CaZpeR on March 11, 2007, 04:45:00 PM
I mean. It has been standing in the same spot since I got the Red Lights. Then I suddenly thought: "maybe not just try it one more time?" after a couple of weeks. Then it worked flawlessly. I mean, I could play games, watch DVD for hours, turn the unit off and on and no red lights. And it worked for about 2-3 more weeks. Yesterday it died on me again. But the strange thing is. I turn it on using the Universal Remote control. See the red lights and I can turn the unit off again with the remote (which I think is strange since they say this is hardware failiure.).
But if that the first post here is the case, I could give it a try if you want? I'm just not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean the screws that attach the heat sinks to the mobo or the "X"'es holding them?
Kind regards. CaZpeR
Post by: dokworm on March 12, 2007, 06:24:00 PM
I remove the Xs that are under the board completely.
Post by: brywalker on March 12, 2007, 08:03:00 PM
I think that a GPU heatsink replacement is absolutely paramount. I have no idea why they even went with aluminum there, that is just about the most retarded thing ever. I know the close proximity to the CPU heatsink causes issues, as well as the height to the DVD drive, but has anyone tried to fit a video card cooler on it like a Zalman or something? I was thinking the VF900-Cu but I think that the holes may be too far apart.
Someone needs to come out with something quick. It needs to be copper, NOT cover the 2 RAM chips on the side and not have an X clamp for install.
dokworm: Would we be able to acheve the same results by using a screw with a plastic washer coming from the bottom and use a nut (or other such screw down type) on the top of the sink to torque it down? I have done this with a few PCs on the Northbridge/Southbridge. Or do you think it will be too much pressure on the holes of the board?
Post by: dokworm on March 13, 2007, 06:03:00 AM
Your suggestion works just fine, but you need to be really careful not to over torque the bolts. One way is to use a spring washer, screw it down till the washer flattens out and then back it off until the washer starts to expand again, that way you know it isn't insanely tight.
Alternatively you could use those rubber/neoprene whatever washers people use to isolate vibration on their hard drives I guess.
Either way it pays to do the simple trick of running without the fans first to at least have a chance of the solder joints becoming a little better and then clamp it, or clamp it and run without the fans.
Ideally you want to put something on the corner of the chips, like a compressible heatpad that will transfer the heatsink downwards pressure to the perimeter of the CPU and GPU instead of it being just on the centre of the chips. It is the corners that tend to lift, not the centre.
I had a Lost Planet marathon last night (about 10hrs straight with occasional pee breaks) on the console that we only did the bolts from the bottom of the board up into the heatsink and didn't get a single issue.
Other interesting aside, the ones we have bolted down don't seem to make as much fan noise as the one unopened 360 that we were linked to. I wonder if the better thermal paste and better clamping means they don't get quite as hot?
Post by: dokworm on March 13, 2007, 06:27:00 AM
(IMG:http://www.fumph.com/ryo_daw/images/athlon_cpu1.jpg)
Post by: brywalker on March 13, 2007, 08:54:00 AM
QUOTE(dokworm @ Mar 13 2007, 01:10 PM) 
If you use the correct thread bolts then there is no need for a nut on the top, you can screw straight into the existing thread.
Your suggestion works just fine, but you need to be really careful not to over torque the bolts. One way is to use a spring washer, screw it down till the washer flattens out and then back it off until the washer starts to expand again, that way you know it isn't insanely tight.
Alternatively you could use those rubber/neoprene whatever washers people use to isolate vibration on their hard drives I guess.
Either way it pays to do the simple trick of running without the fans first to at least have a chance of the solder joints becoming a little better and then clamp it, or clamp it and run without the fans.
Ideally you want to put something on the corner of the chips, like a compressible heatpad that will transfer the heatsink downwards pressure to the perimeter of the CPU and GPU instead of it being just on the centre of the chips. It is the corners that tend to lift, not the centre.
I had a Lost Planet marathon last night (about 10hrs straight with occasional pee breaks) on the console that we only did the bolts from the bottom of the board up into the heatsink and didn't get a single issue.
Other interesting aside, the ones we have bolted down don't seem to make as much fan noise as the one unopened 360 that we were linked to. I wonder if the better thermal paste and better clamping means they don't get quite as hot?
Excellent.
Well I have tracked my problem down to GPU heat. I don't have any artifacting when it locks, just a frozen screen. I can still turn the power off. This at 1080i. If I switch to TV mode, no crashes whatsoever. So it looks like the extra heat generated when running high res is what is causing the crash.
Now I need to drill out this stupid screw. How important is that back plate? Does it actually make contact with the RAM on the back to cool it? Also, has anyone tried cutting the GPU sink in order to expose the RAM on the side of it so they can use ramsinks instead?
Any other insight would be great on this. I am going to be down 1 screw for sure on the back plate due to me having to drill this one out.
Post by: steddyman on March 13, 2007, 09:28:00 AM
I have cut my GPU heatsink and installed Zalman VGA ram coolers, but it still hangs.
I also have Talismoon fans and an XCM internal fan and an AS5 thermal upgrade. It did improve things to the poiint I could play a few hours, but it has started hangning more often again now.
That's why I am looking for a permanent fix.
Steddyman
Post by: brywalker on March 13, 2007, 11:54:00 AM
QUOTE(steddyman @ Mar 13 2007, 04:35 PM)
I found the same, running at 480p rather than 720p stops the hangs. It does look like the GPU is overheating.
I have cut my GPU heatsink and installed Zalman VGA ram coolers, but it still hangs.
I also have Talismoon fans and an XCM internal fan and an AS5 thermal upgrade. It did improve things to the poiint I could play a few hours, but it has started hangning more often again now.
That's why I am looking for a permanent fix.
Steddyman
I think you are on the right track. If you replace the X clip and run it without fans for a while (IE: blanket method) or do the heat gun you should be all set. The board won't flex anymore and it shouldn't happen again (in theory).
It looks like why the heat gun only lasts a while is because you reflow, but you still have the same defect - flexing the board. So after a while it just pops again and you are back to square 1.
If this wasn't a case for ZIFF sockets, I don't know what is.
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 13, 2007, 07:36:00 PM
QUOTE(dokworm @ Mar 11 2007, 12:42 AM)
Next 360 I fix I'll take some pictures, I will need to borrow a camera.
Steddyman, by pegs I mean like on a PC motherboard. You have brass pegs (or plastic spacers) between the PC case and the motherboard. i.e. the things you screw the motherboard onto, that keep it up off the case.
To give more detail, basically I find the faulty balls, reflow so that they are not faulty any more. Then apply new thermal paste and spacer dots to the corners of the two chips (to apply some pressure from the heatsink onto the corners of the chips. I got the idea from old athlon chips where they used to do this)
Then drill holes in the baseplate and put motherboard support pegs into the base metal plate of the case I sue plastic ones cut to size. I put rubber 'cone' supports under the centre of the GPU and CPU (between the metal baseplate and the bottom of the mobo)
I then screw down the heatsinks and use spring washers so that I can tighten and then ease off a bit so as not to overtighten. I fit talismoon fans at the back to help keep the heat under control and in some cases fit a fan to the CPU cooling tower. (I tried the XCM fan but it is insanely loud).
I would love one of the aftermarket companies to release a kit to do something like this so you could do it to your 360 *before* it fails.
I'm not claiming this is the perfect solution, just that it has worked so far on 360s where the towel fix or toothpick fix or airgun fix only gave a really short term fix.
Things I haven't done but think I should are fit bigger feet to the 360 to get ventilation in from underneath, and put some ventilation in the top.
But I'd like a clear case so I could follow the airflow with a fogger to make sure the mods were actually moving the air where it should go and not amking the situation worse.
while your "detailed" explanation isn't awful it leaves some stuff out. Are you screwing from the top down? Did you have to pull the metal pegs out of the existing heatsink? What size drill bit did you use...what are you using to thread the holes. Where did you buy the pads that are similar to the ones that come on the athlons?
QUOTE
I sue plastic ones cut to size. I put rubber 'cone' supports under the centre of the GPU and CPU (between the metal baseplate and the bottom of the mobo)
I have no idea what this means
I'd like to see some pics.
Post by: dokworm on March 13, 2007, 07:57:00 PM
QUOTE(Kurto2021 @ Mar 14 2007, 02:43 AM)
while your "detailed" explanation isn't awful it leaves some stuff out. Are you screwing from the top down? Did you have to pull the metal pegs out of the existing heatsink? What size drill bit did you use...what are you using to thread the holes. Where did you buy the pads that are similar to the ones that come on the athlons?
I have no idea what this means
I'd like to see some pics.
The metal pegs from the existing heatsink just unscrew, and yes I take them out completely.
To thread the holes in the chassis I am using a standard tap and die set, the usual tool for cutting a thread into metal.
I'm using door bumpers from the hardware store since I ran out of old athlon pads, I file them down to size. You could use cork dots, or anything that is compressible really.
If putting pegs under the four mount points of the heatsink then I screw in from the top.
If not putting pegs I use dome headed bolts from underneath and washers so the the height of the bolts head rests on the chassis which helps support the board. It all depends on what parts I have available at the time.
All the last statement means is I used a cone shaped piece of rubber between the chassis and the mobo to support the mobo under the middle of the CPU and GPU. They are stick on rubber cones that came with my PC motherboard and are used in the same way a plastic standoff would be.
i.e. it is just a piece of rubber for that part of the mobo to rest on to help keep it all flat.
Next dead 360 I get I'll take some pics, if anyone in Australia has one for me to fix I'll take pics of it, otherwise I'll just wait for another dead one to turn up amongst my friends or at the next LAN.
Post by: brywalker on March 13, 2007, 08:24:00 PM
QUOTE(dokworm @ Mar 14 2007, 03:04 AM)
The metal pegs from the existing heatsink just unscrew, and yes I take them out completely.
To thread the holes in the chassis I am using a standard tap and die set, the usual tool for cutting a thread into metal.
I'm using door bumpers from the hardware store since I ran out of old athlon pads, I file them down to size. You could use cork dots, or anything that is compressible really.
If putting pegs under the four mount points of the heatsink then I screw in from the top.
If not putting pegs I use dome headed bolts from underneath and washers so the the height of the bolts head rests on the chassis which helps support the board. It all depends on what parts I have available at the time.
All the last statement means is I used a cone shaped piece of rubber between the chassis and the mobo to support the mobo under the middle of the CPU and GPU. They are stick on rubber cones that came with my PC motherboard and are used in the same way a plastic standoff would be.
i.e. it is just a piece of rubber for that part of the mobo to rest on to help keep it all flat.
Next dead 360 I get I'll take some pics, if anyone in Australia has one for me to fix I'll take pics of it, otherwise I'll just wait for another dead one to turn up amongst my friends or at the next LAN.
Do you do this to just the GPU or the CPU also? It seems that most of the problems are occuring with the GPU.
Post by: dokworm on March 14, 2007, 06:35:00 AM
To the previous question about cutting the GPU heatsink down, if you do that you will no longer have air dragging over the heatsink, it will just sneak in the side, so I don't think it is a good idea unless you redesign the airflow with a plenum.
Post by: steddyman on March 14, 2007, 07:43:00 AM
I think I understand everything you have done now. I will look towards giving this a try at the weekend and see if it fixes my problem.
Interestingly, if the problem is the pressure of the heatsink is focused on the center rather than the corners, then I bet the location of the 10mb DRM on the GPU is a bit of a problem. It is off to one side so may not be getting a perfect thermal connection with the heatsink.
The other post about using rubbers under the memory chips is interesting, but I think you are right in the fact this helps prevent the flexing problem. I already have passive coolers on my memory so I know its not heat causing the problem.
Post by: RBJTech on March 14, 2007, 08:55:00 AM
RAM/GPU Heatsink ...
Post by: brywalker on March 14, 2007, 09:20:00 AM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Mar 14 2007, 04:02 PM)
Guys - I seriously don't recommend cutting the GPU heatsink (maybe a bit late ..) - it's insufficient as it is - much better to just thermally attach the RAM to the GPU heatsink as follows -
RAM/GPU Heatsink ...
I totally agree here.
The ONLY way to have a smaller heatsink is to:
a) Make a custom copper one. Having a better conductive material will allow you to have a smaller area.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Rework the shroud to have no gaps.
You have to do both. On the other hand, if you are going to do that you might as well make the copper block the same size as the stock one and add thermal pads to the RAM. This way, you are taking even MORE heat out of there.
I don't have any of my tools here. Does anyone have the dimensions of the GPU cooler?
QUOTE(swdxr12 @ Mar 10 2007, 06:30 PM)
Hi, I have tried a similar method to yours (using screws and nuts to secure the heatsink and motherboard to the case) and have fixed the 3 red lights but occasionally I still get freezing problems. It seems that you are having a good success rate and I am interested in applying your technique to see if I can fix the screen freezes. Please can you post pictures so that I can copy EXACTLY what you have done.
Did you actually remove the X clips? You may also have to add thermal pads to the RAM next to the GPU die, heatsinks to the exposed RAM on the top and thermal pads to the bottom of the board on the RAM there if it didn't come stock.
This post has been edited by brywalker: Mar 14 2007, 04:24 PM
Post by: dokworm on March 14, 2007, 04:05:00 PM
Did a phone around last night, still haven't had a single lockup or problem with any of the 360s yet (at least with the guys who were home and answered the phone) whereas all the fixes we did before proved much more temporary.
The other thing is you really need to lap the heatsink, especially the CPU one, or use a relatively thick application of thermal paste. The finish on the CPU heatsink is really rough on the units I have seen.
Post by: mattygabe on March 14, 2007, 07:24:00 PM
Post by: brywalker on March 14, 2007, 08:36:00 PM
QUOTE(mattygabe @ Mar 15 2007, 02:31 AM)
So when replacing the X clips altogether, what type of hardware did you guys generally use? Like, for the spacers specifically, how tall were they, what were they made of, and did they need to be threaded? How about the bolt/screw that was sent down from the top of the motherboard/heatsinks and into the casing - is the threading in the case itself already? How long of a bolt/screw did you have to use? Besides these spacers and bolts/screws, was there anything else you had to use to get the job done?
Right now I am working on mine. M5 screws will fit the threads directly into the heatsink. I have nylon washers that are the same height as the "nut" on the original standoff - so the heatsink won't be torqued down too far. Make sure you use a nylon washer on both sides of the board.
I am going to use thermal pads on the rear memory for heat transfer and to keep reduce the board from drooping in that area. Thermal pad on the top memory under the GPU heatsink and ramsinks on the exposed ones on the top. For additional heat management I am adding the Talismoon fans and doing the shroud work like RBJTech.
Remember, I never got the red lights. Just lockups. Only in High Def, if set to standard TV all was well. 11/05 was the build date.
Post by: davbere on March 15, 2007, 05:16:00 AM
Months ago I tried fixing about 10 360's with most working 2-3 weeks and then dieing again.
My theory on several of the design choices made on the 360 are as follows.
The pressure on the gpu die is not balanced. There are two heads on it (as you know).
The effect of the heatsink against it is a teeter totter of unequal pressure being applied
which with time contributes to the failure of the bga connections.
One thing I have felt is a heatcap (such as the ones sony uses) would help distribute the pressure of the heatsing to heatsource whilst allowing for a quicker dissapation and tranfer of heat.
Another factor while slight is the vibrations of the spinning drive.
Not a major factor but I put thin felt pads under the drive legs, to help deaden this effect, before screwing it together.
I like the idea of the pads brought up here and may try this at some point.
Cheers
EDIT:
I know Ms wanted to make the 360 nice and pretty but imho a couple more inches of thickness could allow for a better heatsink under the drive on the GPU. I'd like to see a casemod done to allow for a proper heatsing. hmmmm maybe a kit ?
This post has been edited by davbere: Mar 15 2007, 12:26 PM
Post by: mattygabe on March 15, 2007, 08:06:00 AM
QUOTE(brywalker @ Mar 14 2007, 10:43 PM)
Right now I am working on mine. M5 screws will fit the threads directly into the heatsink. I have nylon washers that are the same height as the "nut" on the original standoff - so the heatsink won't be torqued down too far. Make sure you use a nylon washer on both sides of the board.
I am going to use thermal pads on the rear memory for heat transfer and to keep reduce the board from drooping in that area. Thermal pad on the top memory under the GPU heatsink and ramsinks on the exposed ones on the top. For additional heat management I am adding the Talismoon fans and doing the shroud work like RBJTech.
Remember, I never got the red lights. Just lockups. Only in High Def, if set to standard TV all was well. 11/05 was the build date.
I feel my 360 is going to soon bite the dust again, right now it's working thanks to the heat gun trick again. When it does go again, I'm going to reflow it and then properly fasten the motherboard around the CPU and GPU, and also add some pads to the chips underneath the heatsinks. I'll try to take pictures and document my progress, letting you all know how this turns out and maybe help everyone come to better conclusions.
QUOTE(davbere @ Mar 15 2007, 07:23 AM)
EDIT:
I know Ms wanted to make the 360 nice and pretty but imho a couple more inches of thickness could allow for a better heatsink under the drive on the GPU. I'd like to see a casemod done to allow for a proper heatsing. hmmmm maybe a kit ?
Yeah I really think Microsoft went about it a bad way in responding to the first Xbox's criticisms. One was that the box was too bulky and ugly looking, and the other was that it was too loud and got very warm. Well, they must've thought that since the first console didn't have any heating issues, they could easily address the other two - the ugly appearance and the loud fans. However, they seemed to have either run out of resources to address this last issue, or completely ignored it. We may never know which. We do, however, know that they did something wrong because a fairly significant minority of 360 owners are experiencing the same things, which should tell you something.
Post by: brywalker on March 15, 2007, 08:49:00 AM
QUOTE(mattygabe @ Mar 15 2007, 03:13 PM) 
Yeah I really think Microsoft went about it a bad way in responding to the first Xbox's criticisms. One was that the box was too bulky and ugly looking, and the other was that it was too loud and got very warm. Well, they must've thought that since the first console didn't have any heating issues, they could easily address the other two - the ugly appearance and the loud fans.
Well the ironic thing was that one of the main problems with the XBOX 1 was that Japan had a real hard time with it asthetically. It was big and ugly. So what did they do? Hire a Japanese artist to help with the design? The outcome? A system that overheats, Japan still complains about look the system (now it's the power brick) and the PS3 is a BOHEMOTH and no one in Japan cares because it's Sony.
Lesson learned. Don't design your stuff around a culture that you will never penetrate.
Post by: steddyman on March 15, 2007, 12:44:00 PM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Mar 14 2007, 05:02 PM)
Guys - I seriously don't recommend cutting the GPU heatsink (maybe a bit late ..) - it's insufficient as it is - much better to just thermally attach the RAM to the GPU heatsink as follows -
RAM/GPU Heatsink ...
Yep, just a little late for me
However, installing the heatsinks on the memory didn't make things worse for me.
My console was hanging every couple of minutes. I cut the heatsink and installed passive coolers on the memory and it started to last about an hour, sometimes less, sometimes more.
Since the GPU is hotter than the CPU and the CPU heatsink has much more mass, it seems a shame there isn't a way to link the GPU heatsink to the CPU sink.
Or how about putting thermal pads above the GPU to attach it to the underside of the DVD-ROM drive and let the case cool it?
I have just ordered an inexpensive rework station so I am going to try and fix this once and for all this weekend.
Steddyman
Post by: dokworm on March 17, 2007, 12:17:00 AM
Post by: steddyman on March 17, 2007, 03:02:00 PM
QUOTE(dokworm @ Mar 14 2007, 04:04 AM)
If putting pegs under the four mount points of the heatsink then I screw in from the top.
How do you do this for the GPU heatsink? The extisting pegs screw out, but the top of the holes are covered by the fins on the heatsink. The CPU doesn't have this problem.
Are you drilling out the hole on the GPU heatsink?
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 17, 2007, 03:42:00 PM
QUOTE(dokworm @ Mar 17 2007, 04:48 PM)
My ones don't seem to get as hot now anyway, but if someone made a replacement GPU heatsink from coppoer I'd buy one in a minute.
i think that there is a fair market for a "plug 'n' play" heatsink for the 360
Post by: brywalker on March 19, 2007, 09:19:00 PM
Well I just found out it will be about 2 weeks before my pads show up. I will put this thing together Wed and start a new thread with screenshots. I have a fantastic fix, I will try to get all of the specs worked out to make it as easy as possible.
Post by: dokworm on March 19, 2007, 09:16:00 PM
QUOTE(steddyman @ Mar 17 2007, 10:09 PM)
How do you do this for the GPU heatsink? The extisting pegs screw out, but the top of the holes are covered by the fins on the heatsink. The CPU doesn't have this problem.
Are you drilling out the hole on the GPU heatsink?
I just remove the piece of the fin that is above each hole.
QUOTE(brywalker @ Mar 20 2007, 03:50 AM)
I just wanted to bump this up. It seems that we are getting a lot of failures lately and a lot of new posts are being made. The solution is in this thread. I am still waiting for my thermal pads, but I may build without them for now so I can make a tutorial.
Well I just found out it will be about 2 weeks before my pads show up. I will put this thing together Wed and start a new thread with screenshots. I have a fantastic fix, I will try to get all of the specs worked out to make it as easy as possible.
It will be nice to see it, I still haven't found another 360 in Australia that needs fixing, but when I get one I'll borrow a camera and try and do a step by step.
I really do think any fix that takes the pressure off the 'single point' on the underside of the board is a good thing.
BTW - It is really important to lap the CPU heatsink or use more thermal paste than usual as the finish on the heatsinks is really bad, and having spacers on the corners of the CPU and GPU helps keep the pressure even on the heatsink and on the perimeter of the chips.
I'l have to take a look at the shroud mods
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 19, 2007, 10:25:00 PM
Post by: dokworm on March 21, 2007, 06:10:00 AM
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 21, 2007, 05:39:00 AM
http://www.oareplay.com/xbox
Post by: dokworm on March 21, 2007, 06:56:00 AM
Post by: brywalker on March 21, 2007, 06:29:00 AM
QUOTE(Kurto2021 @ Mar 21 2007, 12:46 PM)
Yup there it is.
Personally, I use nylon washers on the bottom so the screws don't torque down directly to the board. Those are some WIDE washers too. M5 is the perfect fit. Good job!
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 21, 2007, 07:36:00 AM
Would I use nylon on the bottom .... yes.....if I could have found some thinner headed screws.
Post by: brywalker on March 21, 2007, 09:22:00 AM
QUOTE(Kurto2021 @ Mar 21 2007, 02:07 PM)
the problem I ran into with the nylon washers....and I do have some thin ones too.....is that the M5 screws heads are too big. I barely got it to go in without an washer...even the thinnest washer made it too thick.
Would I use nylon on the bottom .... yes.....if I could have found some thinner headed screws.
When you say "go in" do you mean fit back into the RF shielding?
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 21, 2007, 09:57:00 AM
Post by: steddyman on March 21, 2007, 10:17:00 AM
Have you removed the old pegs completely, then installed M5 screws up from the bottom of the board into the heatsinks? Does 10mm take it nicely into the GPU heatsink without having to remove the fin on the top?
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 21, 2007, 10:21:00 AM
Post by: steddyman on March 21, 2007, 10:23:00 AM
Does this also mean the clamps / sinks are no longer fixed into the metal base plate?
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 21, 2007, 10:24:00 AM
Post by: steddyman on March 21, 2007, 10:29:00 AM
Are you just relying on the screws on the edge of the board to hold it down now?
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 21, 2007, 10:32:00 AM
Post by: steddyman on March 21, 2007, 10:37:00 AM
Thanks for your explanation. I'll give this a go tonight (if I manage to get three tiny components I knocked of the board resoldered).
Post by: steddyman on March 21, 2007, 01:02:00 PM
Two DIY superstores and this is about the only size they don't do.
Post by: brywalker on March 21, 2007, 03:04:00 PM
Got it all together, working great so far. WAY more heat is transfered to the heatsinks, that's for sure. I am going to do the ducting mods and go from there. I have a few pics, but they SUCK.
I did a little persuading to the RF shielding to get it to fit with the small washers in. Seems to fit ok, if it doesnt fit in the chassis, I will just do some cutting - no big deal.
I used M5x10 (as I said before) and I BELIEVE the washers are #10 .050mm for the top and #10 .025mm on the bottom.
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 21, 2007, 03:09:00 PM
Post by: steddyman on March 21, 2007, 05:07:00 PM
I managed to resolder the SMD's I had removed, so just waiting to put the sinks on now and fingers crossed.
Post by: scotttheman on March 21, 2007, 05:27:00 PM
Post by: dokworm on March 21, 2007, 07:17:00 PM
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 21, 2007, 07:40:00 PM
Post by: scotttheman on March 21, 2007, 07:42:00 PM
Post by: alucard_xs on March 22, 2007, 12:26:00 AM
thanks for helping ours xbox360s but can you take some pictures for no-english friendly pal ? I'm french and even if my english is good (i suppose), I can't understand some word like pegs, washers etc, a picture could talk by itself right ?
thanks dudes; have a nice day
Post by: steddyman on March 22, 2007, 03:46:00 PM
No longer got he three red lights and it all seems to be working fine.
Only problem is one of the components I replaced must be a different value. It is now having problems sensing the DVD tray open, closed, etc. Just keeps switching status. I will see if anyone knows the values of these components in another thread.
Thanks for this though.
Post by: nightmare84j28 on March 22, 2007, 04:06:00 PM
Sounds like a good fix! Possibly something worth doing even to a new 360, to prevent anything ever getting damaged?
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 22, 2007, 07:43:00 PM
QUOTE(nightmare84j28 @ Mar 23 2007, 09:13 AM)
Nice thread
Sounds like a good fix! Possibly something worth doing even to a new 360, to prevent anything ever getting damaged?
possibly a good idea.
Post by: drastic on March 22, 2007, 08:30:00 PM
so i've got 2 bolts (yes 2 not 4) holding the CPU heatsink tight
and the "X" still for the GPU side
my 3 red lights are now gone and i'm going to do some playtesting tonight
Post by: alucard_xs on March 22, 2007, 10:38:00 PM
I really need them
Post by: dokworm on March 23, 2007, 07:03:00 AM
QUOTE(drastic @ Mar 23 2007, 03:01 AM)
I did this mod but just on the CPU side (my bolts wouldnt go into the gpu heat sink)
so i've got 2 bolts (yes 2 not 4) holding the CPU heatsink tight
and the "X" still for the GPU side
my 3 red lights are now gone and i'm going to do some playtesting tonight
If your bolts won't go into the GPU heatsink then perhaps they are too long?
Did you try screwing them into the heatsink by itself while you had it off the 360?
If they are only a little too long, then take the heatsink off and screw the bolts straight into it and when the bolt runs out of thread, give it a few more turns and the bolt will cut a thread into the unthreaded part of the heatsink. There is a bit of spare room there to cut into.
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 23, 2007, 08:30:00 AM
QUOTE(alucard_xs @ Mar 22 2007, 05:57 AM)
Hi,
thanks for helping ours xbox360s but can you take some pictures for no-english friendly pal ? I'm french and even if my english is good (i suppose), I can't understand some word like pegs, washers etc, a picture could talk by itself right ?
thanks dudes; have a nice day
Instead of asking for pictures you could look through the thread and actually click the link with pictures.
http://www.oareplay.com/xbox
Post by: shaggzz on March 23, 2007, 11:43:00 AM
First.....what is happening? Well, the gpu and cpu are soldered to the motherboard. The solder connections are becoming compromised over time, due to the board overheating and flexing, eventually leading to lockups, and then to the red light 'general hardware' errors.
Why is this happening? There are a few factors that combine to cause the 'perfect storm' of heat/flexing/lifting (more like 'perfect storm of shit') that results in the 360s failure. Specifically in regards to GPU failure. They are as follows:
1) The heatsinks are attached via an 'x bracket' that is a flawed design. The gist of it is that it applies pressure that causes the motherboard to warp over time.
2) The solder used is a lead free solder which is apt to provide lower quality connections than lead based solder. I am NOT a soldering expert, but this is what I gathered from the threads I saw on here.
3) The design of the 360 has the GPU fitted with a much smaller heatsink and is further crowded by the dvd drive. The cpu has much more 'breathing room'
4) The fan shroud design (open vs. partitioned) leaves the majority of the air pulled thru the cpu heatsink, even though the GPU would theoretically need more airflow based on it's smaller heatsink.
5) The motherboard is only connected to the chassis at the corners. Standoffs in the middle would help prevent flexion.
6) There is a thermal sensor that will increase fan speed when a certain temp is reached. However, the sensor is on the CPU (this MAY be wrong.....i've seen conflicting reports....however, in my own observations, there is not a sensor on the gpu). Since the gpu's heatsink needs more attention, it would have been much better to have the sensors on both chips. Or, just the GPU. What I've seen is the gpu's heatsink roasting, and the cpu's just warm to the touch.
What about people saying updates caused their issue? OK. I thought this was crap at first, but a few days before my failure, I installed the 1080p update (i don't get online often, and haven't even played in awhile....hence the delay). My theory is that the latest updates did some graphical driver updates that tax the GPU even more (pushing it harder and harder for the latest games), which excacerbates the problem of the GPU overheating. Coincidence....maybe, maybe not. Interesting theory, though.
So, theres the what and why. Now, for the fix. Here are the supplies I used. The best option is to take your gpu heatsink and one of it's loose hex bolts into the store for reference. Your store may not have the 'exact' hardware I used. If you have your sink with you, you can accurately identify a replacement:
Qty 8: 5m bolts 10mm long.
(5m is a metric measurement. In my US Home Depot, the majority of their stock is standard measurement. They have a special section of drawers where they have the metric hardware)
Qty ??: 5m fiber washers.
(the guideline here is you need the same width of washers as the hex 'standoff' of the original heatsink bolts. The ones i found needed 2 washers to replicate that thickness. So, I used 2 washers on the top, and one on the bottom. If you cannot get all fiber washers, you could probably get away with using metal. However, you should make sure the washers don't extend over any of the traces on the board if they are metal.
Arctic Silver thermal paste
Variety pack of high grit sandpaper (200 thru 1200 grit). You may need to go to an autobody hardware store to find the higher grit. I found mine at Harbor Freight for 2 bucks.
Here's the steps I took. My 360 was showing signs of definite GPU problems (checkerboard lockups, and eventually the ring of death):
1) Disassemeled 360 and removed xbracket from gpu heatsink. Goal here was to remove the source of the board flexing.
2) With the top off the 360 and the the fans disconnected and fan shroud off, i prepared to run an overheat. Since the xbracket was off, I simply set the heatsink on top of the GPU (providing minimal functionality). I turned on the xbox and waited until the 3 red lights switched to 2 (indicating overheat). At this point, I waited about 2 more minutes to give the heat a chance to do whatever it does. I did not wait until auto shutdown.
3) I verified that the xbox would restart without giving the 3 red lights. It did. If it did not, I would have done step 2 again, and let it run longer and longer until the 3 red lights disappeared.
4) I cleaned the heatsink and gpu chips of the stock thermal compound. For the cpu chips, use a toothpick to get the gook from around the chips. For the gpu chips, I used a bit of rubbing alcohol on a qtip and circular motions to get the residue off the chips. When the main gpu chip is clean, it should have a mirrorlike appearance.
5) Lapping the heatsink: I purchased a variety pack of sandpaper from the hardware store. It had from 200 grit all the way to 1200 grit. I got a piece of glass (a mirror would work ok). I removed the hex bolts from the GPU sink, so it was flat. I laid the lowest grit sandpaper faceup on the glass, and without putting much pressure, I ran the heatsink in circular motions. After a couple of minites on that grit, I switched the paper to the next highest grit. I repeated this process until i was at the 1200 grit. At this point, I ran the sink under tapwater, and then rubbing alcohol to remove any dust/oil.
6) Applied a paperthin layer of arctic silver to the heatsink and gpu chips.
7) put the m5 bolts thru each heatsink hole on the motherboard. For each bolt, I had one washer below the board, and 2 washers above the motherboard. My washers were of width that 2 washers = the hex 'standoff' width of the original heatsink posts. The goal was to replicate that original width on the top. Then, I placed the heatsink over the bolts and tightened them a bit with my fingers. At this point, I went around and gradually tightened each bolt with a socket in turn as you would a set of lugnuts on a tire. My rule was to tighten them until they began to offer resistance, and then give them about 1/4 extra turn each. Do NOT overtighten. It is better to undertighten than to overtighten. You can always go tighter if necessary.
8) At this point I started the 360 and gave it a successful testrun. The reason I did this now was so that I had a point of reference as to when it was 'working'. If I did the cpu heatsink before giving it a testrun and ran into problems, I would have the question of 'is it the cpu or the gpu that is acting up?'.
9) Repeat steps 4 - 7 for the CPU heatsink.
10) Give another test run.
11) I wanted to do some fan/case modifications to help cooling. I did everything on this great tutorial (thanks RBJTech!)
http://rbjtech.bulldoghome.com/pages/rbjtech_bulldoghome_com/Xbox360.htm
I have confidence that this procedure will keep my 360 going for a long while. If it starts flaking out on me, my next step will be to buy a heatgun and do a proper reflow. If that does not fix it, I plan on buying a new 360, and performing these mods on it before I even run it for any length of time. I believe that will truly keep this damage from even happening.
Post by: handles25 on March 23, 2007, 12:27:00 PM
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 23, 2007, 12:09:00 PM
QUOTE(handles25 @ Mar 23 2007, 05:58 PM)
I dont understand the lapping the heat sink. What does it do? Make it more flush with the chips?
#5 and #6 I would disagree with.
#5 is OK but not necessary
#6 just put a tiny dot on the cpu die and the gpu dies.
http://www.arcticsil...ctions_big2.htm
Post by: shaggzz on March 23, 2007, 02:08:00 PM
QUOTE(handles25 @ Mar 23 2007, 11:58 AM)
I dont understand the lapping the heat sink. What does it do? Make it more flush with the chips?
Yes. The stock heatsink isn't very smooth. Lots of small ridges exist. As Kurto said, this process could be skipped. However, I ran into the cheap sandpaper and realized it couldn't hurt.
Kurto: You are correct on the thermal compound install. For whatever reason, I didn't think it could spread out by itself. Obviously, i was incorrect.
Post by: RDC on March 23, 2007, 02:19:00 PM
#6 (Thermal Paste) Can be done either way, a small rice grain or BB sized amount in the middle and let the sink spread it out, or it can be spread very thinly and evenly before hand, either way will work just fine.
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 23, 2007, 01:53:00 PM
QUOTE(RDC @ Mar 23 2007, 07:50 PM)
#6 (Thermal Paste) Can be done either way, a small rice grain or BB sized amount in the middle and let the sink spread it out, or it can be spread very thinly and evenly before hand, either way will work just fine.
No offense but I am going to take the word of the manufacturer on how to install it. If you do spread it though don't use your finger unless you have a plastic glove. They specifically state that the oils and stuff from your finger can affect performance when they explain how to install arctic silver 1,2, and 3.
QUOTE(ActicSilver website)
It is important to keep the surfaces free of foreign materials and NOT to touch the surfaces (a hair, piece of lint, and even dead skin cells can significantly affect the thermal interfaces performance). In addition, oils from your fingers can adversely affect the performance by preventing the micronized silver fill from directly contacting the metal surface. (Fingerprints can be as thick as 0.005")
Post by: RDC on March 23, 2007, 02:53:00 PM
Post by: handles25 on March 23, 2007, 03:56:00 PM
QUOTE(shaggzz @ Mar 23 2007, 08:39 PM)
Yes. The stock heatsink isn't very smooth. Lots of small ridges exist. As Kurto said, this process could be skipped. However, I ran into the cheap sandpaper and realized it couldn't hurt.
Kurto: You are correct on the thermal compound install. For whatever reason, I didn't think it could spread out by itself. Obviously, i was incorrect.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Post by: RBJTech on March 23, 2007, 05:37:00 PM
Post by: RDC on March 23, 2007, 05:14:00 PM
Post by: shaggzz on March 23, 2007, 09:43:00 PM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Mar 23 2007, 05:08 PM)
Slighly off topic .. but has anyone ever produced any scientific evidence that 'lapping' a heatsink actually provides any better heat transfer ? I was under the impression that any slight differences on the surface would be taken up by the paste - the primary reason for it in the first place ? Just interested, I've never done it ... could never see the need.
The thermal conductivity of even arctic silver is 5% - 10% the conductivity of aluminum. So, the smaller the gaps, the better the conductivity. However, a best case mirror finish lap is only good for about 2-3 degrees F improvement. My 20 minute lap probably shaved a degree off. One reason I did the lap is because I was using the sandpaper regardless to help clean the remainder of stock thermal gunk off the sink.
QUOTE(RDC @ Mar 23 2007, 03:00 PM)
Just because you would use your finger doesn't mean that's how you should spread it. A razor blade or something similar with a straight edge and small enough should be used, not yer finger in a glove either, it won't get spread thinly and evenly at all that way. Either method is perfectly acceptable and the manufacture doesn't always have the only way to "skin the cat" so to speak. If they did, this thread wouldn't exist since the building and cooling jobs M$ did on the 360 would negate it.
I'm thinking the manufacturer recommends doing it this way to avoid user error. A few years back I used to always see it recommended to spread it out paper thin. I hadn't ever seen the blob method until I saw the arctic silver site. Anyways, when spreading it out, many people would apply too much. By doing the simple blob, it works fine and is easy to convey to the end user the correct amount.
Post by: brywalker on March 23, 2007, 10:52:00 PM
QUOTE(Kurto2021 @ Mar 23 2007, 09:00 PM)
No offense but I am going to take the word of the manufacturer on how to install it. If you do spread it though don't use your finger unless you have a plastic glove. They specifically state that the oils and stuff from your finger can affect performance when they explain how to install arctic silver 1,2, and 3.
And...you're wrong!
You have to spread it evenly on any chip that has AN EXPOSED CORE. If it has a heat spreader, you do the small dot and let the heatsink spread it.
Post by: dokworm on March 24, 2007, 06:28:00 AM
I was just pointing out that the CPU heatsink is extremely grooved and nowhere near flat on the ones I have seen, so it either needs to be lapped (no need to get down to a mirror finish, just flatten it out) or you need a bit more thermal paste to make sure you are filling the deep grooves.
If you have a heatspreader and you do the 'dot in the middle' thing, then it will work OK if your HS is very smooth, if it has lots of deep parallel grooves then sometimes it doesn't spread properly.
Post by: RBJTech on March 24, 2007, 02:12:00 PM
Post by: lawdawg0931 on March 24, 2007, 07:05:00 PM
Thank you so much for putting this info out on the forum. My 360 has been doa - heat gun fixed - doa - fixed again...then of course DOA! It's been sitting for about a month, not sure what I was gonna do with it. Saw the info regarding this design flaw, threw away the "X" clamps, got the #5 10mm bolts and fiber washers, a little artic silver & whala! The other important thing I did (thinking this part really helped) was powered on to get the three lights (without the fans plugged in), then waited for it to go to two lights (overheated). I let this go exactly 2 minutes, turned it off & let it cool off. Put everything back together, and damned if it didn't boot right up. Played NFS Carbon right where I left off months ago. Can only hope that this will take care of the problem permanantly. Again, thank you so much for sharing your info, that's what makes a forum work for all.
Post by: dokworm on March 25, 2007, 04:48:00 AM
Yeah I strongly recommend that one does either the towel trick or the disconnected fans trick until the #RLOD goes away *before* clamping. (I'd rather do those than the heat gun as they are far less risky than heatgunning)
That way you are clamping a 'working' system, rather than trying to clamp a non working system into submission.
Post by: N00bvin on March 25, 2007, 09:57:00 AM
After reading a little I came across the "towel trick" and this thread. Both makes complete sense, but with this being a "recent" failure, I wanted to try this without using the towel trick. I think this would prove that this could be used as a "proactive" trick. That is, if you're not having issues, and you do this NOW, you'll avoid future issues. I truly believe that it's the "warping" of that area by the X-clamps.
With that being the case, I would imagine that the failure rate is probably close to 100% (I'm curious whether horizontal or vertical orientation makes a difference), and it's just a "matter of time."
After installing the fix in this thread (the most difficult part is removing the original X-clamps... BE CAREFUL!), I've been stress testing for about 6 hours, with no issues to report. Basically this fix flat out works... I used no towel trick or heatgun, and still have had success. I agree with the OP that that may be a good initial first step, but for me it was unnecessary.
Thanks for this thread, and the fantastic fix... and boo to MS for giving me a great gaming machine that has such a design flaw!!!
Post by: sirsmooth on March 25, 2007, 05:07:00 PM
It seems a pretty easy job but when there ae no pictures and 5-6 people saying 'I used this legnth bolt', 'I used these washers' etc etc people start getting thrown offtrack.
If they can see pictures and a detailed 'howto' they would realise anything that size/shape/material will work.
Great find Dokworm and thanks for the pictures Kurto
Hopefully this is THE fix
Smooth
Post by: dokworm on March 26, 2007, 08:50:00 AM
Post by: nightmare84j28 on March 26, 2007, 10:10:00 AM
Throw in a couple of hundred pics
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 26, 2007, 12:32:00 PM
http://www.oareplay.com/xbox
you might want to clean up the chips a little more .... I didn't take pictures at the very final stage. I can take it apart and start over if you want
Post by: sirsmooth on March 26, 2007, 12:51:00 PM
Bottom and top ones the same thickness?
I just ordered 100 m5 12mm screws
Cheers Smooth
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 26, 2007, 01:39:00 PM
Post by: alucard_xs on March 26, 2007, 01:48:00 PM
Post by: SnufftheCrimeDog on March 26, 2007, 02:06:00 PM
Post by: sirsmooth on March 26, 2007, 02:03:00 PM
My xbox is fine but Im still doing this mod because its my 3rd xbox and the refurbs ms give you back are just as shite :/
Post by: SnufftheCrimeDog on March 26, 2007, 03:09:00 PM
Post by: RDC on March 26, 2007, 03:44:00 PM
QUOTE(SnufftheCrimeDog @ Mar 26 2007, 03:40 PM)
Whoo! Thats awesome! Mine actually working fine as of right now, it still under warranty so I don't wanna fool with it, I bought a vertical cooler which runs on its own power source instead of the 360's so hopefully that will prevent the red light error, but if I does happen i know what to do. Now if I just removed the x clamps and reassembled the xbox 360 would it be ok, or do I need the washers to prevent problems?
Removing the X-clamps without putting back some type of bracing is BAD. As crappy as the X-clamps are the do pull the heatsink down on the chip and without them or something in place of them the board will "float" (more than it does now) and you'll be lucky if the heatsink even touches the GPU at all.
Post by: dokworm on March 26, 2007, 05:52:00 PM
I agree that the back should be braced for a total solution, but the ones where we haven't braced seem to be going just as strong as the ones that we have.
I'd still recommend bracing the back though.
QUOTE(SnufftheCrimeDog @ Mar 26 2007, 09:40 PM)
Whoo! Thats awesome! Mine actually working fine as of right now, it still under warranty so I don't wanna fool with it, I bought a vertical cooler which runs on its own power source instead of the 360's so hopefully that will prevent the red light error, but if I does happen i know what to do. Now if I just removed the x clamps and reassembled the xbox 360 would it be ok, or do I need the washers to prevent problems?
I thought about this before and figured that just taking the clamps off (but still using the black screws on the bottom of the case to hold the heatsinks down) would allow the board to flex back upwards and all would be well, but then I realised that the board would still be free to move and the problems could easily re-occur, and the clamping pressure on the heatsinks would not be what is desired.
Oh I see what you were saying now RDC, I thought you meant without bracing the rear of the mobo in some way, but I see you now mean what Snuff did would be BAD.
I agree
QUOTE(SnufftheCrimeDog @ Mar 26 2007, 08:37 PM)
So correct me if I'm wrong, but alls you are doing it replacing those "X" clamps at the bottom of the GPU with washers, or am I missing something?
We are taking the xclamps off and replacing them with washers and new bolts.
Lawdawg0931 has kindly written up a tutorial here:
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=594487
Post by: Kurto2021 on March 26, 2007, 06:37:00 PM
QUOTE(SnufftheCrimeDog @ Mar 26 2007, 07:37 PM)
So correct me if I'm wrong, but alls you are doing it replacing those "X" clamps at the bottom of the GPU with washers, or am I missing something?
you are wrong .... read the thread....then ask the question.....specifically the part where everyone speaks of M5 10mm screws
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 26, 2007, 09:08:00 PM
Post by: sirsmooth on March 27, 2007, 10:04:00 AM
If its running cooler maybe the heat is staying on the chip?
Probably wrong but thought id mention it
Post by: RBJTech on March 27, 2007, 10:15:00 AM
I bought the hardware to do this today without reading this thread but my design is totally different.
I planned to use the countersunk bolts and FIX then to the case (with a nut) - then use the appropriate washers to pack to the normal PCB height, add a washer then put a second nut on the bolt. ie the PCB is now held tightly onto the case - it's not moving (which is the whole design flaw I though dokworm was alluding to..).
Now the tricky bit - I'm using 4mm bolts which allow the h/s to float (ie the bolt does NOT hold the h/s now), so I then use a spring washer (to provide the DOWNWARD presure), another washer and a nylon locking nut on top of it all. For the CPU this is easy, but for the GPU you'll need to hack out a bit of the fins to make it work.
So, we get a fixed board but floating/moveable (but with downward pressure to allow for thermal expansion) on the heatsinks - ie like PC heatsink designs.
I'll post some pics tonight - have I got the wrong end of the stick ?
Cheers,
Richard.
Post by: RBJTech on March 27, 2007, 09:55:00 AM
QUOTE(sirsmooth @ Mar 27 2007, 04:35 PM)
Im worried about it running cooler, surely it should run hotter because the contact between the chip and heatsink is better?
If its running cooler maybe the heat is staying on the chip?
Probably wrong but thought id mention it
spot on - the heat transfer was never in question on the X-clamps despite what people say - the problem is believed to be the single pressure point. By moving it to the four corners, heat transfer should not change, but the pressure points obviously do.
Without temperature readings saying things 'are cooler' means diddly squat IMO - as you correctly say if the heatsinks are getting hotter then that's good - as discussed in my AS5 comparison test with accurate(ish) temperature readings.
Post by: sirsmooth on March 27, 2007, 01:39:00 PM
What is the size of the gap between the bottom of the motherbored and the bottom of the case?
My screwhead with washer comes to 5mm(1mm washer)
I have tried looking to see if the screwhead is touching the case but its to hard to tell.
Post by: sirsmooth on March 27, 2007, 02:27:00 PM
Just had a decent look and I can see its touching the bottom of the case, just. :/
Post by: RDC on March 27, 2007, 03:08:00 PM
@ sirsmooth - The distance between the bottom of the board and the cage is roughly 4mm, provided the center part there is flatened back into place a little bit. It's a little off from where it was punched out for the X-clamps recess, so it's not exactly 4mm or 5mm, but somewhere in between and different at every spot and from cage to cage. If you're doing it with the heatsinks screwed to the board and then installing the board, you want the screwheads to touch the cage, BUT at the same time the rest of the board does, so if you ditch the washers you should be OK.
@ RBJTech - Yes the design that dokworm has is only bracing the bottom of the board, not holding the board in place. That, as ya already found out, has the crappy side effect of the GPU needing to be hacked on to get to work correctly. With just the bottom of the board braced and then screws from underneath the center of the chip is pulled down and the rest of the pressure of the entire chip spreads it out over the board pretty well, so it's a lot better clamping setup than the stock blunder is, someone at M$ should have their arse removed for this setup. I do agree that a solid setup and a heatsink that clamped on later, more like a PC and similar to what you're doing, would also be a much better solution than the stock setup is, but that hacking into the GPU sink sux and the board bracing alone seems to work pretty well, it's just getting the thickness of what you're using right.
A tad off topic, has anyone else lapped their sinks and found the GPU one to be REALLY bad? as in not one freaking bit near flat at all? The CPU sink wasn't too bad, but the GPU sink was in awful shape.
Post by: SnufftheCrimeDog on March 27, 2007, 03:40:00 PM
. My 360 actually works fine now, still under warranty, and everything, but I want to possibly perform this mod to prevent anything from happening, damn 25 bucks on the cooling system 
. Now I have a few questions one just to make sure I understand now to clamp the heatsink to the board, but to double check dokworm metioned actually fixing the board to the metal case, which makes sense, but to double check this is not necessary correct? Two, the tutorial mentions throwing on new thermal paste, are you basically covering the chip or lining the chip I've seen different pictures, and can this damage the MB if done wrong? Thirdly, the tutorial metions overheating the xbox to resolder the points, as I said my xbox is now 7 days old so I don't think any damage has been done to the solder points, should I still perform this step or is not necessary? Thanks for the support the tutorial is great, and basically I seek opinions on weather I should perform this on a new xbox 360 or not?
Post by: sirsmooth on March 27, 2007, 03:25:00 PM
Could be in a week, month, year but you will get the 3 red lights.
This is not 100% but it seems all these 3 red light problems are due to warping MB's and this helps the bored not to warp.
1. Either clamping to the case or just the motherbored is fine, If you clamp to the case you know in your head you have done all you can. But its not vital.
2. If you are not going to lapp the heastsink(sandpaper) then just put a thin layer all over the chip. If you are going to lapp the heatsink then just put a small bit on the middle of the chip.
3. You dont need to do the 'overheating' trick unless you are getting 3 red lights.
All the above is what I have gathered from this thread and what I have asked myself, please dont take my word for it thou, wait for other replies
Hope this helps.
Post by: lawdawg0931 on March 27, 2007, 03:35:00 PM
QUOTE(SnufftheCrimeDog @ Mar 27 2007, 04:11 PM)
as I said my xbox is now 7 days old so I don't think any damage has been done to the solder points, should I still perform this step
No, this step in the tutorial is for people with the 3 lights already. If you are doing this mod to prevent the 3 lights from happening, and all is working for you at the moment....DO NOT overheat your box.
Post by: clicker666 on March 27, 2007, 02:29:00 PM
QUOTE(SnufftheCrimeDog @ Mar 27 2007, 06:11 PM)
Ok, I understand now....Sorry for my ignorance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif). My 360 actually works fine now, still under warranty, and everything, but I want to possibly perform this mod to prevent anything from happening, damn 25 bucks on the cooling system (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif). Now I have a few questions one just to make sure I understand now to clamp the heatsink to the board, but to double check dokworm metioned actually fixing the board to the metal case, which makes sense, but to double check this is not necessary correct? Two, the tutorial mentions throwing on new thermal paste, are you basically covering the chip or lining the chip I've seen different pictures, and can this damage the MB if done wrong? Thirdly, the tutorial metions overheating the xbox to resolder the points, as I said my xbox is now 7 days old so I don't think any damage has been done to the solder points, should I still perform this step or is not necessary? Thanks for the support the tutorial is great, and basically I seek opinions on weather I should perform this on a new xbox 360 or not?
You say your XBOX 360 is a week old? No, don't touch it. You *should* have a warranty if it blows up. If it blows up after warranty deal with it then. Something I wasn't aware of, was that even out of warranty, I had the option of paying 126 CDN to get a refurbed replacement from M$, and that they extended the warranty for some of the older XBOXes. I would have rather paid $126, then the just over $400 I spent buying another one yesterday.
Post by: RDC on March 27, 2007, 03:45:00 PM
QUOTE(SnufftheCrimeDog @ Mar 27 2007, 04:11 PM)
Ok, I understand now....Sorry for my ignorance
. My 360 actually works fine now, still under warranty, and everything, but I want to possibly perform this mod to prevent anything from happening, damn 25 bucks on the cooling system . Now I have a few questions one just to make sure I understand now to clamp the heatsink to the board, but to double check dokworm metioned actually fixing the board to the metal case, which makes sense, but to double check this is not necessary correct? Two, the tutorial mentions throwing on new thermal paste, are you basically covering the chip or lining the chip I've seen different pictures, and can this damage the MB if done wrong? Thirdly, the tutorial metions overheating the xbox to resolder the points, as I said my xbox is now 7 days old so I don't think any damage has been done to the solder points, should I still perform this step or is not necessary? Thanks for the support the tutorial is great, and basically I seek opinions on weather I should perform this on a new xbox 360 or not?If your 360 is new I wouldn't mess with it at all, BUT on the other hand, doing something along these lines is apt to keep it from breaking down on you in the long run, that's a choice you'll have to make for yourself. You can either keep the warranty and hope it doesn't crap out between here and there and then do it, if it does die you still have yourwarranty, so not real biggie OR do it now and risk possibly causing more harm than good to it and then be un crap creek with no paddle since you voided the warranty to do it in the first place.
Getting thermal compound all over the board and or chip isn't a good idea, but it's not going to hurt anything either unless you have gobs and gobs of it on there. The old thermal paste MUST be removed completely and the chips "die" (small part with all the Transistors and such in it) is the only part that gets new thermal applied to is, just a BB or rice grain sized bit of it.
Overheating the 360 on purpose does NOT resolder BGA joints, it's doesn't get hot enough. What it does do is bow the board the same way that just using the thing does and usually gets the joints to touch again and fixes the 3RLOD for a little bit.
Attaching the board to the cage would also be a good solution, but just having it braced and the heatsinks screwed in place makes for a ton of difference.
Seriously, and as others have already pointed out, leave your 360 alone. No offense, but it seems like ya don't have the "jist" of this and since your 360 is still under warranty leaving it as is for now, with your external cooler, would be the better solution. While doing something like this may prevent it from ever happening, that's no guarantee at all or any reason to try yer luck.
Post by: RBJTech on March 27, 2007, 03:48:00 PM
UK Guys - parts are from B&Q as follows :-
Machine Screws + nuts - Countersunk Slotted 4mm x 20mm (10) - p/n AVF-069314
Hex Nut 4mm (7) - p/n AVF-064616 (3mm thick)
Spring Washer 4mm (30) - p/n AVF-065088
Flat Washer 4mm (70) - p/n AVF-064951 (washers are 0.77mm thick)
Nylon Lock Nut (4) - p/n AVF-064685 (x2)
No need for nylon/plastic washers as the circle area is isolated from the board anyway.
Pics are here :-
Replace those X Clamps !
Note this is different from the tuts in this thread - this is clamping the board to the case as well as the heatsink. This is solid as a rock, that board ain't going anywhere !
Happy to do a full tutorial if the interest is there - so far so good but it's only been going for a few hours - I want to give it another couple of weeks with lots of thermal cycles before considering it a success.
Cheers,
RBJTech.
PS - Respect to dokworm for giving me the incentive to get this sorted out ...
Post by: nightmare84j28 on March 27, 2007, 02:59:00 PM
If i end up doing it sometime, i'll be doing it the way you did.
Post by: sirsmooth on March 27, 2007, 03:03:00 PM
Keep us updated m8.
This post has been edited by sirsmooth: Mar 27 2007, 10:07 PM
Post by: SnufftheCrimeDog on March 27, 2007, 04:13:00 PM
QUOTE(RDC @ Mar 27 2007, 04:52 PM)
Getting thermal compound all over the board and or chip isn't a good idea, but it's not going to hurt anything either unless you have gobs and gobs of it on there. The old thermal paste MUST be removed completely and the chips "die" (small part with all the Transistors and such in it) is the only part that gets new thermal applied to is, just a BB or rice grain sized bit of it.
(SnufftheCrimeDog)/sorry quotation retarded too
Gotya, now excuse my technically retarded terminology, but on the GPU, there is a big glassy looking chip, and then a small chip next to it, from what I'm getting, I want to put a drop of thermal compound on glassy/shinny looking one correct?
Seriously, and as others have already pointed out, leave your 360 alone. No offense, but it seems like ya don't have the "jist" of this and since your 360 is still under warranty leaving it as is for now, with your external cooler, would be the better solution. While doing something like this may prevent it from ever happening, that's no guarantee at all or any reason to try yer luck.
I wouldn't go as far as saying I don't get the "jist" of it. I now understand completely what to do. I have modded two original xboxs and I've done a fair amount to my PC. I'm not trying to go on the defensive here, but to clarify I do understand what I am doing its the parts I'm a little cloudy on that I just wanna make sure I've got absolutly down to the very last point, I want ultra-clarity, so not to screw up
I feel as though I should make the modification if it is inevitably going to happen, but I heed you warnings, and maybe until my warranty runs I will hope my external cooler will prevent it. Thanks for all the clarification guys, its is nice to know there is hope beyond the red lights
Post by: lawdawg0931 on March 27, 2007, 04:46:00 PM
Definitely nice job. Once mine was together & I realized the holes on the bottom case lined up perfectly (Duh) with the M5 bolts, I thought about what you have done. Being tied in to the case, no doubt be stronger. Keep us posted as to the life of this fix. Nice job on the pictures as well.
This post has been edited by lawdawg0931: Mar 27 2007, 11:46 PM
Post by: N00bvin on March 27, 2007, 05:50:00 PM
QUOTE(lawdawg0931 @ Mar 27 2007, 01:42 PM)
No, this step in the tutorial is for people with the 3 lights already. If you are doing this mod to prevent the 3 lights from happening, and all is working for you at the moment....DO NOT overheat your box.
FYI. I had the three lights before this mod and did NOT have to do the overheat "trick." It simply worked right after doing the mod, which is good because I'm not in the habit of overheating electronics on purpose. Just so people know this step "might" be unnecessary. Mileage may vary.
Post by: lawdawg0931 on March 27, 2007, 07:17:00 PM
QUOTE(N00bvin @ Mar 27 2007, 08:05 PM)
I'm not in the habit of overheating electronics on purpose.
Me either, but point taken....I guess I need to add a line in the tutorial stating to see if just replacing the "X" clamps has worked, then no need to try the overheat trick. In my case it made the difference.
Post by: bmdubya on March 27, 2007, 07:43:00 PM
Pics of Fixing the Xbox
Post by: brywalker on March 27, 2007, 09:27:00 PM
QUOTE(sirsmooth @ Mar 27 2007, 08:10 PM)
Question...
What is the size of the gap between the bottom of the motherbored and the bottom of the case?
My screwhead with washer comes to 5mm(1mm washer)
I have tried looking to see if the screwhead is touching the case but its to hard to tell.
Hammertime.
No, really.
If you are careful, you can "persuade" the chassis to back off just a tad. This is what I did, and if you do it CAREFULLY, it will all fit together nicely.
I do like what Richard did. It was actually my first instinct! To quote myself way back when:
QUOTE(brywalker @ Mar 13 2007, 03:10 AM)
dokworm: Would we be able to acheve the same results by using a screw with a plastic washer coming from the bottom and use a nut (or other such screw down type) on the top of the sink to torque it down? I have done this with a few PCs on the Northbridge/Southbridge. Or do you think it will be too much pressure on the holes of the board?
I decided not to deal with cutting the fins on the GPU heatsink. Mine is working great for now, my thermal pads will be in soon. Maybe I will switch over to that. But then I have to hammer my RF shield back. Hmmmm.
Post by: kalon on March 28, 2007, 01:02:00 PM
Does anyone know the dimensions of these screws or where I can get replacements? Also, am I likely to encounter any issues running the 360 in the interim? It seems to be working fine at the moment, but I don't want to use it if I'm likely to damage something. Thanks.
Post by: RDC on March 28, 2007, 03:59:00 PM
QUOTE(kalon @ Mar 28 2007, 03:17 PM)
Does anyone know the dimensions of these screws or where I can get replacements? Also, am I likely to encounter any issues running the 360 in the interim? It seems to be working fine at the moment, but I don't want to use it if I'm likely to damage something. Thanks.
You don't really need them as the case clips together. Look in the 360 BST section, I'm sure you'll find a few sets in there somewhere.
Post by: nekkron99 on March 28, 2007, 04:10:00 PM
QUOTE(RDC @ Mar 28 2007, 03:06 PM)
You don't really need them as the case clips together. Look in the 360 BST section, I'm sure you'll find a few sets in there somewhere.
I concur. The only thing I could see being an issue (though, I highly doubt it) would be having it standing. But RDC is a Xbox god compared to me, so, he probably know a thing or 2.
Post by: Heet on March 28, 2007, 04:12:00 PM
Post by: Tortuga2112 on March 28, 2007, 06:29:00 PM
is anyone keeping track how many consoles were brought back to life using this method?
any recurring failure after?
could somebody set up a poll ? anyone else like to see a poll?
it'd be interesting to know which method works best in the long run. heatgun, erasers under memory, removing x-clamps, and any fan modifications etc.
the GPU re-balling thread seems to have lost steam , haven't heard any new success or progress on that front for a little while. I guess that method is a bit to costly for most people to undertake, probably better off buying a new one, unless you're paying $1300 for a console like the guys in brazil(I feel for you guys that have the 3RLOD)
Post by: sirsmooth on March 29, 2007, 04:40:00 PM
I have done exactly what you have done.
I have done the fan shroud modwith devider...
I have noticed the cpu side of the fan is cooler but the gpu side seems hotter.
I know deffo that the CPU side is cooler but Im not sure if its me thinking the GPU is hotter or the same. without proper kit its hard to tell
Post by: RBJTech on March 30, 2007, 04:10:00 AM
QUOTE(sirsmooth @ Mar 29 2007, 11:47 PM)
Rich, how are your temps?
I have done exactly what you have done.
I have done the fan shroud modwith devider...
I have noticed the cpu side of the fan is cooler but the gpu side seems hotter.
I know deffo that the CPU side is cooler but Im not sure if its me thinking the GPU is hotter or the same. without proper kit its hard to tell
Haven't tested the temps yet as I need to take it apart again as I forgot to put back the RAM pads ...
But so far so good - it's had 6 thermal cycles with zero problems when before it would only go twice before crapping out and needed an 'overheat' to fix it ..
Will try and sort this weekend and also do a proper tutorial rather than a set of pics...
Richard.
Post by: sirsmooth on March 30, 2007, 05:30:00 AM
I have taken mine apart and made sure the nuts are tightened tightly but not to tight on all 8 bolts.
Seems fine, CPU is deffo cooler, GPU is still baking but stable
Post by: RBJTech on March 30, 2007, 08:37:00 AM
.. Full tutorial in all it's glory to match the earlier pics here ...
Link in my home page/sig as well to match all the other mods ...
(I must learn to author web pages properly...)
Post by: sirsmooth on March 30, 2007, 11:01:00 AM
Kit comprises of:
9 bolts/9 locking nuts/9 nuts/41 washers/9 spring washers. (1 extra of everything, just incase you lose one)
All you need to do this mod.
Saves looking for parts and you know you have the right legnths and sizes.
If intrested pm me.
Cheers Smooth
Post by: Taher on March 30, 2007, 02:31:00 PM
Thanks to all of you for sharing your informations with us.
Post by: RBJTech on March 30, 2007, 03:14:00 PM
New Temps
This is an update of a previous post - you're now looking at column G.
In summary, the new clamping method seems to to have actually knocked a few degress off the temps.
(ambient was 22 Deg C this time, so I corrected the temps based on this).
For the CPU, the most noticeable drop was on the base of the h/s where it was 4 degrees lower - better contact with the die perhaps ?
For the GPU this is a little unfair as I have also modified the GPU heatsink vs the stock one. Minus 3 deg C (5.5 deg F) over the die and an amazing Minus 7 degress (12.6 deg F) on the left most side of the heatsink (!).
I would put maybe 3 or 4 degrees down to the new clamping method but the rest must be down to the modding of the GPU heatsink fins (aka hack...
). So a more turbulent air path DOES provide better cooling as prooved here ...RAM went down 1 deg C this likely because I used a different type of heatsink on the front RAM compared to my other xbox360 - I didn't bother checking all the other places as I hadn't changed them at all.
So, in summary - bolt clamping provides an equally, if not better method to get heat off the dies, and hopefully a much longer lasting solution than the X clamps !
Richard.
Post by: sirsmooth on March 30, 2007, 05:20:00 PM
I see from your temp chart that the twilight silent fans drop a few degrees off, so do you think they are worth £12?
Might be my next purchanse.
Post by: RBJTech on March 30, 2007, 05:52:00 PM
QUOTE(sirsmooth @ Mar 30 2007, 11:51 PM)
Rich, I pretty much got the same setup as you now, Ive done all your mods bar the bottom fan under the motherbored, GPU heatsink hack/mod and the twilight silent fans.
I see from your temp chart that the twilight silent fans drop a few degrees off, so do you think they are worth £12?
Might be my next purchanse.
Without a doubt - they pull more air and will make even better use of the air divider etc. PS Assume you mean Talismoon whisper fans ?
Post by: sirsmooth on March 30, 2007, 07:14:00 PM
cheers m8.
Post by: Taher on April 02, 2007, 04:27:00 PM
Post by: Heet on April 02, 2007, 04:50:00 PM
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on April 02, 2007, 06:36:00 PM
QUOTE(Taher @ Apr 3 2007, 07:58 AM)
How can I attach a heat sink to RAM chips ? What glue I can use ?
you can get adhesive thermal paste.
Post by: JanusX88 on April 03, 2007, 07:46:00 PM
I will say the job was hell, but I was able to do it, I would not recommend this operation if you have no experience with building desktop computers or the like.
Post by: lonedeath on April 07, 2007, 11:56:00 AM
Gave this a try, everything done to the letter, and now the xbox boots up, gets half way into the boot sequence (the xbox logo at the start) and cuts off, flashes 2 red lights, (both left ones) and i get error 0011.
Anyone any ideas?
Thanks
Post by: SnufftheCrimeDog on April 07, 2007, 12:14:00 PM
QUOTE(lonedeath @ Apr 7 2007, 01:27 PM)
I have done the Hot Air Gun method now 5 times. 1st time I did it, xbox lasted a week, then with each time I did it, the xbox lasted shorter and shorter.
Gave this a try, everything done to the letter, and now the xbox boots up, gets half way into the boot sequence (the xbox logo at the start) and cuts off, flashes 2 red lights, (both left ones) and i get error 0011.
Anyone any ideas?
Thanks
If your only getting 2 red lights then you xbox 360 is just overheating. Give it time to cool out. Honestly after performing this fix the xbox 360 that you just fixed should be given a day to let everything you just did to it settle. Also check the RAM chips on the bottom of the board and see if there thermal pads on them, if there aren't I would strongly advise buying some. According to the error descriptions 0011 is an overheating error, I know these error codes aren't a 100% accurate, but there pretty close. My ideas for you are 1.) Check that the GPU and CPU heatsinks are each clamped down firmly to there respective chips and 2.) Check for thermal pad on the RAM chips, these get pretty hot as well. I'm by no means a expert, but I deffinetly give these options a whirl. Hope these help, and good luck
Post by: lonedeath on April 07, 2007, 01:58:00 PM
I'll let it sit overnight and try it again.
thanks for your help, i'll post the results again tomorrow
Post by: SnufftheCrimeDog on April 07, 2007, 06:01:00 PM
QUOTE(lonedeath @ Apr 7 2007, 04:05 PM)
ok. I have another mobo here I dont have the key for so I removed the RAM sinks from that and put them on, still giving me the 2 red lights
I'll let it sit overnight and try it again.
thanks for your help, i'll post the results again tomorrow
Hmm, letting it sit is probably a good idea, but just to double check you placed heatsinks over the 4 RAM chips on the bottom of the motherboard, pretty much right under the GPU? If yes then thats good, and finally there also two right next to the GPU chip it doesnt hurt to cover those too. If it doesnt work after all that, I really don't know what to tell ya. I know personally I would feel much better seeing 2 Red lights instead of 3 Red lights. Again I could be talking out of my butt, but I personally would feel that going from 3 lights, which usually means death for your 360, from 2 lights, although not fixed, is a step in the right direction. Again good luck, and hopes this helps.
Post by: SSChevy2001 on April 07, 2007, 08:37:00 PM
Post by: RBJTech on April 08, 2007, 03:18:00 AM
QUOTE(SSChevy2001 @ Apr 8 2007, 03:44 AM)
Just thought I add my own story. I had the 3 red lights 0102 0110 only for the first min on startup everytime the console cold booted. I tried new thermal compound. I tried the heat gun trick once no luck. I tried the erase trick no luck, the erasers just broke in half in the metal groove of metal case. Finally I left the screws out that mount the X-Clamp to the metal case. No more 3 red lights. Those screws somehow cause more bend on the X-Clamp. Really those screws aren't needed so I'm not putting those 8 screws back. Also I got my GPU and CPU are super cool.
By not screwing the h/s to the case, you are effectively reducing the pressure on the X clamps - so yes that will have a similiar effect that the X clamp replacement posts (sucesses I may add..) are having.
Ps - interesting idea on the GPU fan (with the raised DVD Rom) but I still don't understand where the fan gets it's air 'from' as even with the room for the fan itself, you'll need that space again for air flow.... ?
Post by: SSChevy2001 on April 08, 2007, 07:40:00 AM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Apr 8 2007, 05:25 AM)
By not screwing the h/s to the case, you are effectively reducing the pressure on the X clamps - so yes that will have a similiar effect that the X clamp replacement posts (sucesses I may add..) are having.
Ps - interesting idea on the GPU fan (with the raised DVD Rom) but I still don't understand where the fan gets it's air 'from' as even with the room for the fan itself, you'll need that space again for air flow.... ?
Thanks, I wanted some direct airflow on the gpu to drop the temps. Now that the red light job is gone it's time to finish dressing it up. There is room for air, and while I don't have a tempature gauge. I can tell you by hand touch the gpu heatsink is cool to the touch. Also the db are very quiet on these addition fans.
(IMG:http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/SSChevy2001/xbox181.jpg)
I also cut out the back end, maybe I might have over done it just a little.
(IMG:http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/SSChevy2001/xboxback.jpg)
Post by: lonedeath on April 08, 2007, 07:21:00 AM
QUOTE(SnufftheCrimeDog @ Apr 8 2007, 02:08 AM)
Hmm, letting it sit is probably a good idea, but just to double check you placed heatsinks over the 4 RAM chips on the bottom of the motherboard, pretty much right under the GPU? If yes then thats good, and finally there also two right next to the GPU chip it doesnt hurt to cover those too. If it doesnt work after all that, I really don't know what to tell ya. I know personally I would feel much better seeing 2 Red lights instead of 3 Red lights. Again I could be talking out of my butt, but I personally would feel that going from 3 lights, which usually means death for your 360, from 2 lights, although not fixed, is a step in the right direction. Again good luck, and hopes this helps.
Ok, got it sorted!
I realised the heatsink on the GPU was not even touching the cores!
So I removed a washer from each bolt and now the 2 lights are gone. All working fine again!
Post by: RBJTech on April 08, 2007, 10:46:00 AM
QUOTE(SSChevy2001 @ Apr 8 2007, 02:11 PM)
Thanks, I wanted some direct airflow on the gpu to drop the temps. Now that the red light job is gone it's time to finish dressing it up. There is room for air, and while I don't have a tempature gauge. I can tell you by hand touch the gpu heatsink is cool to the touch. Also the db are very quiet on these addition fans.
I also cut out the back end, maybe I might have over done it just a little.
Ah - so you really have raised the DVDRom ! It didn't look that high in the previous pic. With direct active cooling I totally agree the GPU h/s is cool - I just can't understand why MS gave it such little priority with airflow ...
wrt the backside - what's that bar through the middle for - cut it out !
Post by: SSChevy2001 on April 08, 2007, 12:37:00 PM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Apr 8 2007, 12:53 PM)
Ah - so you really have raised the DVDRom ! It didn't look that high in the previous pic. With direct active cooling I totally agree the GPU h/s is cool - I just can't understand why MS gave it such little priority with airflow ...
wrt the backside - what's that bar through the middle for - cut it out ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Post by: mzone on April 09, 2007, 08:10:00 AM
when i first bought my 360 it was 3rol i just applyed some artic silver and it worked for like 6 months no problems,
last week i got the dreaded 3 rol
so far i have not got this to work again i have tryed the hot air gun 3 times now along with new artic silver compound each time, still get 3 rings of death.
i have 2 360,s with rings of light now other one i need a couple of new caps 16v 1500uf, and other one is one of the lttle yellow ones 4v 820uf caps, as they seemed to melted a bit when i first tried the headgun for 1st time even with tin foil on. so far i have not been able to source these, loked on my local maplins but couldent find them and rs components are only trade.
Post by: mzone on April 09, 2007, 08:20:00 PM
is it just me or anyone else found this strange?
Post by: SSChevy2001 on April 09, 2007, 10:42:00 PM
QUOTE(mzone @ Apr 9 2007, 10:27 PM)
what makes me curious is how the hot air reflow works first couple of times then after doesent seem to fix the ring of death 2 nd or 3rd time around ?
is it just me or anyone else found this strange?
Post by: mzone on April 10, 2007, 08:43:00 AM
not sure whever to give the erasure trick a go or the x clamp trick, as surely the hot air reflow would of refixed it even for a few mins
Post by: SSChevy2001 on April 10, 2007, 10:04:00 AM
Post by: Mrcon on April 10, 2007, 10:57:00 AM
Post by: DuBob4432 on April 10, 2007, 11:04:00 AM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Mar 23 2007, 04:08 PM)
Slighly off topic .. but has anyone ever produced any scientific evidence that 'lapping' a heatsink actually provides any better heat transfer ? I was under the impression that any slight differences on the surface would be taken up by the paste - the primary reason for it in the first place ? Just interested, I've never done it ... could never see the need.
RBJTech -
it really depends on the surface you are starting with. in the extreme o/c community of computers, lapping is assumed unless you get a hs that has a near mirror finish, which some of the better hs do come from the factory with.
also, your site that shows the shroud mod - the pics are no longer there. is there another link as i want to modify my 09/06 unit before there becomes any issue...
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on April 10, 2007, 03:16:00 PM
QUOTE(mzone @ Apr 11 2007, 12:50 AM)
not sure whever to give the erasure trick a go or the x clamp trick, as surely the hot air reflow would of refixed it even for a few mins
definitely go the x-clamp way. the erasers i dont think will fix your problem
Post by: mzone on April 11, 2007, 10:18:00 AM
im gona try the bolt heat sink trick today.
UK
Machine Screws (4mm x 20mm) + Nuts (3mm thick)
Hex Nut 4mm (3mm thick)
Spring Washer (4mm) AVF-065088
Flat Washer (4mm) 0.71mm thick
Nylon Lock Nut (4mm)
im just curious looking at the parts list needed regarding the Hex Nut 4mm 1 packet of 7 required?
can i ask where these hex nuts go? as i thought they go on heatsinks but this would make it 8 thats needed , 4 for each heatsink, however theres only 7 in 1 packet? and it says only 1 packet of 7 is needed.
also are your guys 360s still working ok?
Post by: RBJTech on April 11, 2007, 09:50:00 AM
QUOTE(mzone @ Apr 11 2007, 04:49 PM)
ok i have 2 360s here with 3 rings of light.
im gona try the bolt heat sink track today.
UK
Machine Screws (4mm x 20mm) + Nuts (3mm thick)
Hex Nut 4mm (3mm thick)
Spring Washer (4mm) AVF-065088
Flat Washer (4mm) 0.71mm thick
Nylon Lock Nut (4mm)
im just curious looking at the parts list needed regarding the Hex Nut 4mm 1 packet of 7 required?
can i ask where these hex nuts go? as i thought they go on heatsinks but this would make it 8 thats needed , 4 for each heatsink, however theres only 7 in 1 packet? and it says only 1 packet of 7 is needed.
also are your guys 360s still working ok?
Yep - still going strong.
Actually you are correct - my mistake. The plan was originally to also have a nut holding down the board (in addition to the nylon lock nut..) as well but there was not enough room inbetween the board and the heatsink for a 3mm deep nut, so I opted for the 3 washers instead. Therefore, you do not need the extra pack of nuts (my original intention was to use one of the 2 spare nuts from the bolt pack to make up the 8 required
...)I'll update my tutorial - well spotted ...
Post by: poisonousjuice on April 11, 2007, 10:28:00 AM
QUOTE(mzone @ Apr 11 2007, 04:49 PM)
ok i have 2 360s here with 3 rings of light.
im gona try the bolt heat sink trick today.
UK
Machine Screws (4mm x 20mm) + Nuts (3mm thick)
Hex Nut 4mm (3mm thick)
Spring Washer (4mm) AVF-065088
Flat Washer (4mm) 0.71mm thick
Nylon Lock Nut (4mm)
im just curious looking at the parts list needed regarding the Hex Nut 4mm 1 packet of 7 required?
can i ask where these hex nuts go? as i thought they go on heatsinks but this would make it 8 thats needed , 4 for each heatsink, however theres only 7 in 1 packet? and it says only 1 packet of 7 is needed.
also are your guys 360s still working ok?
i'm not sure where you got the 1 pack of 7 needed from but yes you definately need 8 hex nuts. and the 2 360s i fixed are still going strong for a week of extensive use.
Post by: mzone on April 11, 2007, 10:41:00 AM
im gona give this ago today as my other 2 360s have gone down last night after heat gun worked ok for 2 weeks.
will update later how i get on.
im gona buy a 4mm drill bit too, do u def need the 5mm bit, as if i do i might as well pick on of the 5mm metal bits up too.
oh and noticed somethink about the thermal pads will i need these too? or can i just apply some artic silver on mem chips instead.
Post by: RBJTech on April 11, 2007, 12:18:00 PM
QUOTE(mzone @ Apr 11 2007, 05:12 PM)
the 1 pack of 7 needed was in the parts list mate, but RBJTech has now updated it concidering you dont need them.
im gona give this ago today as my other 2 360s have gone down last night after heat gun worked ok for 2 weeks.
will update later how i get on.
im gona buy a 4mm drill bit too, do u def need the 5mm bit, as if i do i might as well pick on of the 5mm metal bits up too.
oh and noticed somethink about the thermal pads will i need these too? or can i just apply some artic silver on mem chips instead.
..you defo need the 4mm for the case, the 5mm you may be able to get away with - the idea is for the 4mm bolt to easily pass through the drilled 5mm hole in the heatsink - if you leave the h/s threaded, then the bolt may 'catch' on the existing thread when you go to put the heatsinks on. Give it a go - if they won't go on, then you'll need to drill them to 5mm ...
Thermal pads will not effect the fix in anyway - they are 100% optional ...
Post by: DuBob4432 on April 11, 2007, 04:06:00 PM
Post by: RBJTech on April 11, 2007, 04:33:00 PM
QUOTE(DuBob4432 @ Apr 11 2007, 11:13 PM)
RBJTech - could i get the visio template for the shroud? i can't get it from your site. also, if you need some hosting room let me know - i can host some pics for you on one of my sites no problem
Sure - my public doc store should work ... here
Failing that - I've also dumped it as a ZIP on my web site here ..
Let me know (via PM) which one works as I'm having mixed results atm with people saying the pics are/arn't working ... tks for the kind offer on hosting ..
Use PM as we have gone way off topic ... (apologies mods... back on topic now ..)
Cheers,
Richard.
Post by: d00k on April 14, 2007, 11:31:00 AM
360 sititng in corner for past 3 months with 3 ROD as soon as i turned it on. Followed RJB tutorial except that i didnt drill the 5mm holes in the heatsink as i felt was not worth the risk as they both slipped over my screws easily enough. Also my local pc shop had some no brand silver paste, so used that instead of Artic Silver 5.
And the result is i now have a fully functional 360 thats been on about 6 hours now . All I can say is thanks to the ppl on this thread.
Post by: RBJTech on April 14, 2007, 11:43:00 AM
QUOTE(d00k @ Apr 14 2007, 06:02 PM)
I will keep this short and to the point.
360 sititng in corner for past 3 months with 3 ROD as soon as i turned it on. Followed RJB tutorial except that i didnt drill the 5mm holes in the heatsink as i felt was not worth the risk as they both slipped over my screws easily enough. Also my local pc shop had some no brand silver paste, so used that instead of Artic Silver 5.
And the result is i now have a fully functional 360 thats been on about 6 hours now . All I can say is thanks to the ppl on this thread.
Great news - don't forget to post in the sticky on your success !
Post by: Taher on April 15, 2007, 05:30:00 AM
I used a piece of thick paper and placed it in front of fans to pull more air from under the board and keep RAM chips in better temperature.
See pictures (sorry for low quality) :
http://nextgen.ir/pic/ramcool1.jpg
http://nextgen.ir/pic/ramcool2.jpg
Do you think this mod is really help to cool down RAM chips ?!
Cheers
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on April 15, 2007, 05:30:00 AM
QUOTE(Taher @ Apr 15 2007, 09:01 PM)
I do a little mod for keep 4 RAM chips under the board, cooler.
I used a piece of thick paper and placed it in front of fans to pull more air from under the board and keep RAM chips in better temperature.
See pictures (sorry for low quality) :
Picture 1
Picture 2
Do you think this mod is really help to cool down RAM chips ?!
Cheers
sounds like a good idea....but it don't think it will pull much air from under the board.
Post by: Taher on April 15, 2007, 08:04:00 AM
QUOTE(ferrari_rulz_02 @ Apr 15 2007, 03:07 PM)
sounds like a good idea....but it don't think it will pull much air from under the board.
Thank you.
I want to measure temperature difference between two situation (with and without paper).
If I succeeded then post results here.
Post by: stoopidmnkey on April 15, 2007, 11:22:00 AM
QUOTE(dokworm @ Feb 28 2007, 03:24 AM)
The problem is that it is way beyond the tolerance these things are manufactured to to expect that you get a perfect alignment of force, the slightest bit out and you have an untenable situation.
It is a design flaw as the motherboard area around the CPU and GPU absolutely should be screwed through to the case (via pegs/standoffs) to keep that area of board flat as a tack.
With the heat and airflow on that thing, a single pressure point clamp, and a motherboard only secured via the corners is a recipe for disaster.
A simple design with the mobo secured to the case at the four points around the perimeter of both the CPU and GPU solves the problem. It is just poor design.
Mine is still glitch free so far.
To be clearer it is a combination effect of the x clamp system *and* the motherboard effectively floating that combines to cause the problem.
I can't believe they didn't really lock the mobo down to the case similar to a PC, especially on something designed to run vertically.
Would this cause you to get the overheating error message of #1 & 3 lights? I am getting it and already replaced the thermal paste with Arctic Silver 5 and it let me play for about an hour, now the error lights again.
Post by: Taher on April 15, 2007, 11:52:00 AM
QUOTE(stoopidmnkey @ Apr 15 2007, 08:59 PM)
Would this cause you to get the overheating error message of #1 & 3 lights? I am getting it and already replaced the thermal paste with Arctic Silver 5 and it let me play for about an hour, now the error lights again.
check for space between heatsink and cores. maybe after replacing thermal paste, heatsinks aren't tight enough on gpu, cpu or both of them.
Post by: RBJTech on April 15, 2007, 04:48:00 PM
QUOTE(Taher @ Apr 15 2007, 12:01 PM)
I do a little mod for keep 4 RAM chips under the board, cooler.
I used a piece of thick paper and placed it in front of fans to pull more air from under the board and keep RAM chips in better temperature.
See pictures (sorry for low quality) :
Picture 1
Picture 2
Do you think this mod is really help to cool down RAM chips ?!
Cheers
There is a lot of heat under the board - I have a hole cut in the case and a fan extracting air.
There is a contant flow of 'warm' air from the fan - meaning that is is cooling something ! I expect that the RAM attached to the case and under the CPU/GPU is creating the most heat.
As you've identified, the fans are low enough to suck air from beneath the board, but i'm not sure if this is by design or if that's the only way they could get the fans in ..
There are vents in the case, so maybe ?With your mod, I would be wary of taking the air flow from the main heatsinks - you will also be creating a fair bit of extra noise with the air divider that close to the fan blades...
Post by: lawdawg0931 on April 15, 2007, 07:34:00 PM
Do you have a mod written out for that botton fan? Where do you hook into power & how much. Also been thinking about making "feet" to get some airflow under...what'd you use? Thanks
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on April 15, 2007, 07:36:00 PM
QUOTE(RBJTech @ Apr 16 2007, 08:55 AM)
thats a better idea. just a pitty that there is no real way of making it look great....
i think having the fan there would be more effective too
Post by: Taher on April 16, 2007, 03:08:00 AM
I saw your cooling mods before and those mods are really great but I have problem with cutting that metal case ! that is really hard for me because I don't have appropriate tools
Also, I made 12V Fan mod on the FANs and that make a lot of noises and this paper piece doesn't really make extra noises. at least with huge FAN noises, I can't hear any more sound from inside of the console !
How you can cut that metal case in that way ? are you using standard drill ?
Thanks again for your help and concern
Post by: RBJTech on April 16, 2007, 03:32:00 AM
QUOTE(Taher @ Apr 16 2007, 09:39 AM)
Thank you, RBJTech
I saw your cooling mods before and those mods are really great but I have problem with cutting that metal case ! that is really hard for me because I don't have appropriate tools
Also, I made 12V Fan mod on the FANs and that make a lot of noises and this paper piece doesn't really make extra noises. at least with huge FAN noises, I can't hear any more sound from inside of the console !
How you can cut that metal case in that way ? are you using standard drill ?
Thanks again for your help and concern
Yep - drill lots of small holes then cut through them and punch out the centre - the file it all flat. A PITA to do tbh - unless you have the tools then don't even attempt it ...
12v fans ok cool - shouldn't have any issue with airflow then ..
PS - for maximum under board cooling using your mod - then I would also block the ends of the airguide, as that will be the easiest open path for the air to be sucked in and not from under the board, by blocking it, you force the air to come from under the board via the vent holes ..
Post by: Taher on April 16, 2007, 08:56:00 AM
Thank you for your attention
Post by: dcfcforever on May 08, 2007, 02:07:00 PM
My 360 went for repair 3 months ago and came back working fine up untill last week. I got my xbox back again today and within 10 minutes games are freezing.
The first time my 360 broke it was freezing and occasionally it had 3 red lights and it worked fine for 3 months.
Now its back it plays for 5 minutes then freezes and every restart after that it freezes at the boot up, red lights at all yet
Does this sound like an x-clamp problem and would replacing them solve it?
Thanks
Post by: aerodigital on June 05, 2007, 07:26:00 PM
QUOTE(fahrenheit @ Mar 1 2007, 11:03 PM)
@Elemino -
You have to factor in the quality of the PCB that is used to produce the 360 motherboards. Its poor. Some PC motherboards cost more than the 360 itself and are of far higher quality componentry. The 360 is a high volume, mass produced product that is made as cheaply as possible because it is made at a loss to the supplier (MS).
You aren't comparing apples with apples.
I couldnt agree more. I have a WHOPPING P4 Copper core heatsink i modded on to my X800GTO on my pc. No problems as long as i circulate the heat. It makes perfect sense. I just read the pdf for the 3rlod and it sounds like it could work, but risky. Everyone who has done the project doesnt seem to have many "theories" but more concrete info. I am looking to get this fix rolling within a week. Ill post will my info as well on the results forum.
Post by: Mikekay1976 on June 07, 2007, 03:38:00 PM
looks like a great thread thansk people for all the hard work, esp for the main man RBJTech, for the last week my 360 has been crashing a lot and now i have the 3 rings..... if i let it cool off i can power a game for liek 5 mins before it hangs and then i get the 3 rings again.
Please.... a quick question if someone doesnt mind.........is it worth firing up my unit with the lid of and a wacking big house fan blowing on it to make sure heat is the issue or will the warping still occur?
this is partly to make sure its worth my buying the bits for the mod (i need a torx 6 screwe driver as well) and partly becasue i want to get back to dead rising and cant get anywhere to buy the bits till Saturday.
but i dont want to damage anything more than it already is.
PS i wonder if there is a market for a modding kit package with the correct screws/nuts for the heatsink (yes i know there is a pack for this) but also bundled with the ram sinks, the heat pads, and the uprated rear fans.
anyways thanks for reading.......
M.
Post by: Mikekay1976 on June 11, 2007, 01:37:00 AM
i did the x clamp removal as well as improving my internal airflow whilst i was in there. Before it wouldnt last more than 5 mins without freezing and then following up with the ring of death, however its since been solid for around 7 hrs of gaming.....
the M$ standard heatsink compund seems very poor, it looks almost like a liquid rubber.... hopefully the arctic silver will do the job a little better
Many thanks
M.
<ps have posted on the poll>
Post by: rjtd on June 29, 2007, 04:05:00 AM
Where I live, it is very difficult to get them all. For example, there are only metal washers and stuff.
I, for now, am not in need, but I know quite a lot of people that had troubles performing the fix because of not finding the washers.
Post by: icepik_69 on July 18, 2007, 09:36:00 PM
I can't wait to get started!
I was wondering if RBJTech , dokworm , brywalker , steddyman , RDC , lawdawg0931 , N00bvin , sirsmooth , ferrari_rulz_02 , JanusX88 , SSChevy2001 , lonedeath and anyone else who performed this mod is still up and running without having to take it apart to repair again?
Could you all please post how long you have been up and running, and if you had to re-repair it again?
I'm going to do this mod this weekend, and would love to know the success rate!!
Thanks so much for the great work guys!
Post by: icepik_69 on July 18, 2007, 10:07:00 PM
I'm trying to picture your method using all the bolts and screws together but it's not makin sense to me.
Could you explain from heatsink -> down to the bottom of the chasis in what order the bolts, washers etc. go with as much detail as possible?
It may be on your website for all I know, but none of the links in this thread that go to your site will work.
With the order, and your list of parts which is:
Machine Screws + nuts - Countersunk Slotted 4mm x 20mm (10) - p/n AVF-069314
Hex Nut 4mm (7) - p/n AVF-064616 (3mm thick)
Spring Washer 4mm (30) - p/n AVF-065088
Flat Washer 4mm (70) - p/n AVF-064951 (washers are 0.77mm thick)
Nylon Lock Nut (4) - p/n AVF-064685 (x2)
I should be able to handle it no probs!!
Thanks again guys!
Post by: santa09 on July 18, 2007, 10:08:00 PM
Post by: icepik_69 on July 18, 2007, 10:10:00 PM
?
Post by: ascalon on August 05, 2007, 02:49:00 PM
Post by: steveranda on August 09, 2007, 07:40:00 PM
Lawdawg says to use
8 M5-.80 x 10 Machine Screws
16 #10 Flat Washers Nylon
16 5mm Flat Washers Metal
I am in the US and I am not a big hardware guy so I dont know if I go to a hardware store and ask for M5-.80x10 or for #10 Flat washers if the guy at the hardware store is going to be clueless? Can someone fill me in if I am missing something, or can someone let me know if what I have typed is a size at the hardware store?
Thanks
Post by: brandogg on August 09, 2007, 08:48:00 PM
Post by: steveranda on August 10, 2007, 07:31:00 PM
Any help?
Post by: DuBob4432 on August 10, 2007, 11:01:00 PM
if you do only one way and stick with that setup all the way through there shouldn't be any issues.
lawdawg's method hasn't changed that i know of but RBJTech is up to rev III (3), so make sure if you do RBJTech's method, you follow it all from the same revision or mk # as the hardware and manner is different along w/ modifications.
hopefull this pic will help those out that are having issues -
(IMG:http://rbjtech.bulldoghome.com/photos/BDRES/rbjtech_bulldoghome_com/xclamp/xclampwashers.gif)
Post by: steveranda on August 11, 2007, 08:48:00 AM
Thanks
Post by: SirisX on August 23, 2007, 10:22:00 PM
I removed the X-bars from my 360 and replaced them with a series of plastic nylon washers on each of the screw holes in the 360. I bought my washers at Ace Hardware, but any hardware store should be able to provide them. If you're going to be replacing the X-bars in the console you might as well also replace the thermal compound the 360s come with and use a proper thermal compund, Artic Silver brand works fine.
Post by: SirisX on August 24, 2007, 03:13:00 PM
Replace the flawed Microsoft X-clamps, that are the root of all 360 problems, with the proper amount of washers. You should use either aluminum or plastic nylon washers as these two materials are the safest to use.
You don't need to place anything else inside the case, just place about one thick washer and two or so thin washers over each hole to act as a replacement for the X-clamps...thats it. Make sure the washers are properly aligned, have someone hold the motherboard upside down while holding the heatsinks in place, and screw the case back onto the motherboard. Thats it...put the 360 back together and you won't have any more red lights of death, unless of course you have screwed your 360 console up beyond repair through other methods not discussed in my post.
What this fix does is replace the flawed X-clamps that were once applying too much pressure underneath of the CPU and GPU chips, this effectively breaks the solder points that are on the opposite side of the motherboard, underneath the chips.
Post by: NS91 on September 02, 2007, 01:49:00 AM
QUOTE(steveranda @ Aug 11 2007, 11:24 AM)
Correct me if I am wrong, but in following Lawdawgs method, it doesnt appear that you screw the motherboard to the case. The bolts he suggests I think are way to short and in his steps is looks like the bolts and washers only go through the motherboard and heatsinks, and then the motherboard with the heatsinks back attached with the new bolts just sits on top of the case...Can anyone confirm this for Lawdawgs method?
Thanks
I'd like to know the answer to this too. Thanks in advance!
This post has been edited by NS91: Sep 2 2007, 08:49 AM
Post by: feldiasa on September 02, 2007, 09:57:00 AM
QUOTE(steveranda @ Aug 11 2007, 09:24 AM)
Correct me if I am wrong, but in following Lawdawgs method, it doesnt appear that you screw the motherboard to the case. The bolts he suggests I think are way to short and in his steps is looks like the bolts and washers only go through the motherboard and heatsinks, and then the motherboard with the heatsinks back attached with the new bolts just sits on top of the case...Can anyone confirm this for Lawdawgs method?
Thanks
You are correct.
Post by: reptilexcq2 on September 08, 2007, 06:13:00 PM
Post by: dupfold on September 30, 2007, 09:56:00 AM
I'm following the Lawdawgs method and now at the point where I'm putting things back together and this is the problem. I have my bolt which goes through the two washers, motherboard, two more washers and then the heatsinks but with regards to the larger heatsink (the one with the bronze base) what do the screws actual screw to as there are no mention of nuts needed in the Lawdawgs method?
Im probably way of track so please help.
Post by: BamElementCH on September 30, 2007, 11:47:00 AM
QUOTE(dupfold @ Sep 30 2007, 12:32 PM)
Need a little help here please.
I'm following the Lawdawgs method and now at the point where I'm putting things back together and this is the problem. I have my bolt which goes through the two washers, motherboard, two more washers and then the heatsinks but with regards to the larger heatsink (the one with the bronze base) what do the screws actual screw to as there are no mention of nuts needed in the Lawdawgs method?
Im probably way of track so please help.
The holes that the screws go through on the heatsink should be threaded.
Post by: somacast on September 30, 2007, 06:16:00 PM
but also a cold soldering is a big possiblity , mainly that ive seen in one of the websites which calims 2 repair this problem an x-ray picture of the cpu , gpu soldering points where some of them didnt get enough solder or enough time to cool ....
so it looks like the right conclusion is the all assembly line of M$ this era is a flaw ....
Post by: pdowg881 on September 30, 2007, 07:18:00 PM
Post by: snip77 on November 24, 2007, 01:40:00 PM
I did the fix succesfully, but now the vent keeps spinning higher and higher, i have to whear ear-plugs while gaming.
Is there anyone whith a solution? like resetting temp-sensor or something?
Greetz from holland
Post by: sdeland on November 29, 2007, 10:48:00 PM
Thanks,
Stan
Post by: broabertawe on January 21, 2008, 07:13:00 AM
MARK
Post by: longboarder on April 10, 2008, 12:48:00 PM
Post by: Xavez on July 06, 2009, 04:18:00 AM
There has not been reports of the CPU suffering from cold solders are there? Thus I conclude that MS tried to save $$ by using the same screws for both the GPU and CPU heatsink. (Same parts means u can order in bigger bulk and get quantity discount)
Shame on them.