Post by: BCfosheezy on November 16, 2006, 05:39:00 PM
Here's my setup: (Click images for larger version.
and with this reading the xbox was displaying the dash as a control. The meter did not fluxuate sitting idle for 3 minutes. (5.44v)
Next I fired up the Saint's Row demo and bitch-slapped as many people as I could for a while and ran trying to get as many as I could behind me. We ran by a police officer and he started shooting them and that's where I took the pictures.
The reading at this point:
A few minutes later:
Reading:
In short, the xbox 360 has the capability to dynamically control it's fans, but it doesn't.... at least not based on temperature.
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 16, 2006, 08:04:00 PM
QUOTE(xzenor @ Nov 16 2006, 08:48 PM) 
I've noticed this too.........in demo's. Although, try a real game (as in a disk) and test the voltage.
I did. It was the same in battle for middle earth II. It was the same in COD2. All in all, it wouldn't matter whether it was a demo or not. That doesn't even make sense. It's graphicly intensive code that heats up the components. If it's thermally controlled it will speed them up if the chips get hot..... not just because you've loaded a demo or an official game disc.
Edit: I should note that I could not touch the gpu heatsink for more than 3 seconds it was so hot. (and I have an extremely high heat tolerance.)
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 16, 2006, 08:09:00 PM
QUOTE(RiPpN-N-TrIppN @ Nov 16 2006, 09:12 PM)
yeh was a good idea but you really should of tested it using a real game
instead of a demo
Rip
instead of a demo
Rip
I did, but it also really doesn't make any sense that it would be any different. It's still a graphically intensive game. If it can thermally control the fans then it will when the components get hot. They did, it didn't.... end of story. Confirm it yourselves if you want.
Edit: You guys are confused on the noise being emitted by the console. Use your brains for a second... what's the difference between having a game in and NOT having a game in???? The DRIVE is spinning. That's where the noise is coming from.
Post by: Geirskogul on November 16, 2006, 09:08:00 PM
Try Oblivion, with the case on.
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 16, 2006, 09:11:00 PM
QUOTE(Geirskogul @ Nov 16 2006, 10:15 PM)
You need to put some alligator clips (or temporarily solder on some wires) onto the fan headers, and then put the case back together. I've seen the fans go up to 7 volts, and then 12.
Try Oblivion, with the case on.
Try Oblivion, with the case on.
Why are you guys refusing to believe the facts put before you? If I put the case back on, it will run COOLER!!!
If you've seen the voltage go up to 7 and 12 volts then let's see your pictures. Let's see some proof instead of your claims.
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 17, 2006, 07:54:00 AM
QUOTE(tnbigdawg @ Nov 17 2006, 12:26 AM)
I agree with you. It wouldn't matter if it was a demo or not, the point is that BCfosheezy figured out that the 360 is NOT DYNAMICALLY CONTROLLED(It probably cost to much for MS to implement anyways; every penny counts).
The test was to see if there was any voltage change as the temperatures went up and thus taking off the case was the way to go.
Post by: MDA on November 17, 2006, 10:46:00 AM
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 17, 2006, 11:17:00 AM
QUOTE(ydgmms @ Nov 17 2006, 11:40 AM)
but not having the case on adds for much needed ventilation, which cools the components thus the fan doesn't get as high as it could.
Do what the other person said and try it with the case on.
You want to be all scientific, but your not covering all possible cases.
Do what the other person said and try it with the case on.
You want to be all scientific, but your not covering all possible cases.
No, it takes away from it. Having the case on controlls the airflow so it goes across the correct components. Having the case off, there is no controlled airflow so the console run HOTTER. You have this whole thing backwards. Anyone who knows anything about airflow will tell you that you're misguided.
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 17 2006, 11:53 AM)
Remove the air duct and you will see that the volts climb up to 11.75. No need for games or cases.
That's not dynamic control. The console will shut off and the fans will go to 12v just like in the original xbox. I'm not going to kill my console to do that since all I set out to prove or disprove was dynamic fan control.
This would mean that as the chips heat up the fan speeds up. I had the chips heating up. The fans never sped up.
The myth is busted... now get over it.
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 17, 2006, 12:11:00 PM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 17 2006, 12:59 PM)
First off, it won't kill your console. At the most you will get a 0012 error. Cool down the system and will start right back up.
As for what I was saying.. With no air flow to the heatsinks the fan voltafe will start to step up. It does not jump right to 11.75. It will increment its way up until the system can no longer take the heat. Then the thermal protection kicks and it shuts down rather then fry the chip.
Think about this. Your heatsinks are clean and have no dust causing blockage. Once a system has started to collect dust and blockage occurs, the temps will obviously rise higher then yours did. M$ has to account for this as not every customer is going to clean out the dust bunnies.
Oh man. You're really reaching here. At what temperature does the core have to reach before it starts stepping up? I'm not going to eliminate the airflow from my heatsinks and risk hurting my console. Dynamic fan control speeds the fans up when the console heats up. It didn't do that. No matter what you say to do you've already been proven wrong. I'm not going to kill my console because you say so. I've PROVEN that it does not have dynamic fan control and if you want to say otherwise you should PROVE it rather than make claims that you can't prove. Kill YOUR console. I'm not going to.
Edit: Take a look at my first pic. There's dust on the cpu heatsink that is clearly visible due to my fingerprints wiping some dust off. It's a launch console. Also, MS doesn't care about dust. If they did they would have to offer a service plan. Speeding fans up will cause the dust to collect faster. It will compound the problems.
Post by: MDA on November 17, 2006, 12:28:00 PM
If I can get a picture of a meter showing more then 5 volts will that convince you?
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 17, 2006, 01:10:00 PM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 17 2006, 01:35 PM)
I wish I had a thermal probe here at work. That would make this alot easier.
If I can get a picture of a meter showing more then 5 volts will that convince you?
If I can get a picture of a meter showing more then 5 volts will that convince you?
Well no actually. After the testing I've done (much more in-depth than posted here) you're not going to convince me until I have reproduced the results myself. If you can show that the fan speed is regulated based on temps of the cpu and/or gpu then I will do some testing. Since my testing included a thermal probe on another meter (I don't really trust it so I didn't report it, this is also why I asked what temp the fans are stepped up at.) and another meter reading the voltage while insulating the heatsinks in various, controlled ways. The fans NEVER fluxuated
. I'm convinced that once the xbox goes into protection mode the fan will kick up. It did that on the original console. Yes do not argue further without some irrefutable proof. It grows tiresome with people slinging claims in the face of reason.
Post by: ydgmms on November 17, 2006, 01:19:00 PM
Post by: tnbigdawg on November 17, 2006, 01:56:00 PM
QUOTE(xboxexpert @ Nov 17 2006, 12:23 PM)
BCfosheezy is absolutely correct in his tests/results. I've known this for a while since the 360 pumps out heat that would only been compared to a RSX Turbo while its spooling yet the fans stay at low rpms. I'm not going to get into an argument with any one person in this post but most of you guys are incorrect and are just looking for an argument which is not going to happen.
-xboxexpert
P.S - I'd just like to add that be it a Demo or a Real game...It doesn't really make a difference.
Thank you for backing. I guess people are not understanding and can't get into their heads why the tests were conducted the way it was, and why it doesn't matter if he used a demo or not and case on or not.
The term DYNAMICALLY controlled would mean that the fans would fluctuate depending on temps, in which BC has tested not to be the case with the 360.
Now, I don't know if MS claimed the 360 to have dynamically controlled cooling or not.... Or was this claim made by fanboys?
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 17, 2006, 02:13:00 PM
QUOTE(tnbigdawg @ Nov 17 2006, 03:03 PM)
Thank you for backing. I guess people are not understanding and can't get into their heads why the tests were conducted the way it was, and why it doesn't matter if he used a demo or not and case on or not.
The term DYNAMICALLY controlled would mean that the fans would fluctuate depending on temps, in which BC has tested not to be the case with the 360.
Now, I don't know if MS claimed the 360 to have dynamically controlled cooling or not.... Or was this claim made by fanboys?
Well I can't find the thread/s. I don't even remember who I was discussing this with. He swore up and down that the fans were thermally controlled and provided a link to MS's website (that I admittedly did not follow) and posted a quote from it that boasted thermally controlled fans. I wish I could find all of that. It was either in 360 general chat or general hardware chat and the title was something like "xbox 360 excessive noise" or something like that. It was from the past 2-5 months. I have had so much going on at work and arguing so much in pnr that I forgot when, where, and who.
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 17, 2006, 02:41:00 PM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 17 2006, 03:40 PM)
I have pix and will post them later tonight. Using a towel to cover the heat sinks the voltage gradually went to almost 7 volts. When the towel was removed, it slowly returned 5.45.
Sounds good. I'm anxiously awaiting this. Would you mind getting everything in one shot? This way nobody has to go back and forth. I would like to see:
1. Your set up. (Your measuring equipment and xbox. All wires clearly visible with no area for someone to claim any kind of deception.)
2. A control that shows what your fan voltage is at idle.
3. The variable (insulator over heatsink). Probes have to still clearly be visible connected to the fan header in the same spot and all wires must be clearly visible.
If all of the above things are met with no room for deceptive practices and you still get your results, you will then have a special xbox that nobody else has
. I for one insulated my heatsink for a short duration and the fans stayed steady so if yours rise you're either lying or you have a one of a kind 360.Post by: BCfosheezy on November 17, 2006, 06:01:00 PM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 17 2006, 06:15 PM)
Sorry it took so long. Traffic was bad tonight.
This is the test done on a system that has a E74 error code. Even with the error the system will still respond to heat.
First pix would be the control. Towel is on to block mainly the CPU HS. Even with the towel on it still takes 2-3 minutes before the temps rise enough to increase the fan voltage.
Next shot gives a better view of the hand towel.
The highest voltage read was around 6.84. I did not get a pix of it since the voltage was jumping around from 6.3 to the 6.84.
The towel allowed for enough air to pass throuh to keep the temps from rising to high. Thats why the temp only went to 6.84.
Last shot is of a few 360s I have laying around for parts.
I also have pix of a system running all the way up to 11 volts. Just don't have time to add them right now. If you need more pix, lemme know.
This is the test done on a system that has a E74 error code. Even with the error the system will still respond to heat.
First pix would be the control. Towel is on to block mainly the CPU HS. Even with the towel on it still takes 2-3 minutes before the temps rise enough to increase the fan voltage.
Next shot gives a better view of the hand towel.
The highest voltage read was around 6.84. I did not get a pix of it since the voltage was jumping around from 6.3 to the 6.84.
The towel allowed for enough air to pass throuh to keep the temps from rising to high. Thats why the temp only went to 6.84.
Last shot is of a few 360s I have laying around for parts.
I also have pix of a system running all the way up to 11 volts. Just don't have time to add them right now. If you need more pix, lemme know.
If you could, measure the temp(of whatever, heatsink, core... I don't care I just need a reference) that you see the first rise to the tenth of a volt in fahrenheit. At what temp do you see a half volt? At what temp do you see a full volt? Finally at what temps do you see 7v and 12v? I'm curious of these facts. I will be attampting to reproduce shortly I suppose. I hate to heat up my WORKING 360 chips as I know how transistors dislike getting too warm.
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 17, 2006, 06:34:00 PM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 17 2006, 07:33 PM)
I will see what I can do, but it wont be until monday.
The other set of pix I have are done with a unit that did have an error E73. I fixed the error and then ran the test. That is the one that I let go all the way to 11+ volts.
I can understand you being hesitent to overheat the CPU. However, I have taken 16 units put them all in air tight plastic bags and let them run. Within 10 minutes they all shutdown with 0012 error. When this happens, all power is cut to the system even the fans. After removing them from the bags and waiting less then 5 minutes, every unit was powered back on. All of them booted to the dash and ran for 6 hours on various games. It's simple thermal protection. INTEL was the first to use it. Somewhere on TOMs Hardware guide they have a video showing intel and amd procs running fine, then they remove the heatsink. The intel procs would run for a few then shut off. The AMDs would continue to run to insane temps until the CPU actually melted or caught on fire. I'll see if I can that vid later.
I remember that vid well. I used to be a Tomshardware junky
. I'm still not totally convinced to be honest... but I won't insult you. I feel that if MS were going to go to the trouble of thermally protecting their chips they would have included protection for the gpu since it is the hottest component in the console. (My cpu doesn't even get luke warm under normal cooling and with no shroud it slowly heats. My gpu runs so hot at all times that you have to not want your finger anymore to touch it more than 3 seconds. Even if they put this "thermal protection in there it's not protecting anything if the temps have to get this high before it starts to increase the fan speed. That's like seeing that you're about to get sideswiped so you wait until impact to accelerate out of the way. I honestly was sold until I went to reproduce the results and saw a few things that were peculiar. None of which were voltage increases. Well... sorta. I thought I had lost my mind when my idle temp was over 13v. That's when I realized how easy it was to fake the results. I forgot you can set any potential as "0" Simply short the leads after that and it will report what ever voltage you set
.Make a vid. That way it will be the end of the discussion.
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 17, 2006, 07:39:00 PM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 17 2006, 08:20 PM)
Good Idea. I'll do that on Monday. I'll also do one with no heatsinks. 
So from what I've seen so far I'm convinced yourself, xboxexpert, gotmaxx, and myself should do this kind of thing for a living. We'll have our own version of tomshardware
cept maybe a little less legal in some areas.Post by: BCfosheezy on November 17, 2006, 08:47:00 PM
QUOTE(tnbigdawg @ Nov 17 2006, 09:05 PM)
AWSOME JOB MDA!!!
So what the hell BCfosheezy, why is your 360's fan voltage not responding to temperature change? Could it be a lack of a dash update?....(a little off topic now) But I read somewhere that one of the 360's dash updates fixed the problem of the DVD drive constantly running at full speed despite if it's reading intensively or not. I personally can't tell at all and it seems like it still runs at full speed(except after about a few hours of play last night, the drive went into "quite mode" some how on my MS25-xtreme42a during online gaming in GRAW).
Damn, I might try my fan voltages too just to get some backing into this subject. The only thing I can't do is get a thermal reading.
So what the hell BCfosheezy, why is your 360's fan voltage not responding to temperature change? Could it be a lack of a dash update?....(a little off topic now) But I read somewhere that one of the 360's dash updates fixed the problem of the DVD drive constantly running at full speed despite if it's reading intensively or not. I personally can't tell at all and it seems like it still runs at full speed(except after about a few hours of play last night, the drive went into "quite mode" some how on my MS25-xtreme42a during online gaming in GRAW).
Damn, I might try my fan voltages too just to get some backing into this subject. The only thing I can't do is get a thermal reading.
Well hold on now partner... it's not official.
NOBODY'S 360 fan voltage is responding to temperature change. If you have to cover the heatsink up with an insulator and wait several minutes to notice a 1 VOLT CHANGE something is drastically wrong because the chip would be killing itself by the increase would not be enough to adequately cool it anyways. Imagine how hot it would have to get to go to full speed!!! I'm very skeptical of these results because not only are they not practical but he's the only one so far that has EVER came up with them. Myself and xboxexpert are not noobs by any stretch of the imagination. We both testify to the fact that our voltages never change. I performed the same experiment that was done here and got very different results from him. My voltage stayed constant once again. Don't jump to conclusions just yet.... I'd like some temps posted and some other verification. This whole thing is pretty fishy.
Post by: G0t M4xx 21 on November 17, 2006, 10:43:00 PM
I have done similar tests as MDA has, and the fans will slowly speed up until the heatsinks get so hot that the console shuts down and displays 2 red lights.
I think the reason you did not see this BC is because your system did not net hot enough for it to have to step up the voltage. However, on other consoles (such as older ones with dust in them), it may need to step up the fan speed to keep temps under control.
Also, just for your viewing pleasure:
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 18, 2006, 09:16:00 AM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 18 2006, 12:01 AM)
From what I have seen you and I are the only ones to even test it. You have one result and I have another. However I have not questioned your results nor called them fishy. Even though I have pictures from 2 different units both of which show a gradual increase in voltage. As stated before, I will make a vid on monday and can do it to as many units as I want.
Excellent drawing. Thanks for backing me up on this one.
I'm going to have to apologize. I really didn't mean the "fishy" comment towards your results. I meant it towards how i got one thing and you got another and we did the same thing. Again, I didn't mean to put you down or slam you in any way. I was simply saying it was too early for me to draw a conclusion since we got very different results from doing the same thing.
Post by: creepyplaidman on November 18, 2006, 08:43:00 PM
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 18, 2006, 10:57:00 PM
QUOTE(X-hacker @ Nov 18 2006, 02:08 PM)
C'mon children, stop bickering 
Surely anyone's findings are important when it comes to 'The World' vs 'Micro$oft'. I think most people are clever enough to distinguish between B.S and truth...
Surely anyone's findings are important when it comes to 'The World' vs 'Micro$oft'. I think most people are clever enough to distinguish between B.S and truth... I don't mean to bicker with MDA as he has no reason to lie and so far I have nothing but respect for him and I hope I didn't insult him.
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 20, 2006, 11:28:00 AM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 20 2006, 07:45 AM)
No insult taken, but I am ready for the flames. lol I forgot my camera at home this morning. So I can't do any vids today. Sorry
No flames will come from me. I have no pride involved in this. I just want us to be right and know once and for all.
Post by: MDA on November 20, 2006, 01:44:00 PM
QUOTE(xboxexpert @ Nov 20 2006, 02:04 PM)
Keep this thread in line people I sorta like where this is going...
I agree. We could use more threads like this.
Post by: MDA on November 20, 2006, 02:07:00 PM
Just tried something else. Took a heated up CPU and watched the volts as the fans brought the temp down. They also had a decrease rate of .12.
Had to do another one. THis time I used a very powerful heat gun to increase the temps. The volts climbed to rapidly for me to judge the rate. I shut off the heat at a little over 10V. The fans where able to bring them temp back down very fast. Again at a rate of .12.
Post by: MDA on November 21, 2006, 07:24:00 AM
Post by: MDA on November 21, 2006, 07:43:00 PM
Post by: xboxexpert on November 21, 2006, 07:57:00 PM
Yea thats my sexy voice...but seriously now...notice that he temps had to read well over 140F for the fans to take off like a rocket engine. Something to think about...
Post by: xboxexpert on November 21, 2006, 08:27:00 PM
Post by: MDA on November 21, 2006, 09:55:00 PM
QUOTE(xboxexpert @ Nov 21 2006, 09:34 PM)
Could just be a busted Dynamic Fan control..
I think that he nay have been being too cautious to allow the CPU to heat up. Understandably so, I wouldn't want to kill my 360 either. Thank fully I have hundreds that I can experiment on.
I saw your video. Nice looking setup. How about doing a phase change system?
Post by: bigjimmy on November 21, 2006, 10:44:00 PM
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 22, 2006, 07:08:00 AM
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 22, 2006, 08:10:00 AM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 22 2006, 08:53 AM)
Just did it. Same result. Used some paper to block the flow from the duct.
Hmm... now I'm really confused.
Edit: Oh yeah.... Myth Confirmed! Nice work MDA.
Post by: BCfosheezy on November 22, 2006, 01:50:00 PM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 22 2006, 09:45 AM)
Thanks! But I was not the only one. Xboxexpert and G0t M4XX had a hand in things as well.
So what are you confused about?
Well I noticed yours immediately started changing voltage. Mine doesn't. It actually has me kind of pissed off tbh. Since I watched your video this morning, I went home and cracked the ole console open and removed the shroud and listened (didn't wanna get the meter out). Since yours was clearly audible I wanted to hear mine..... again I'm a pussy when it comes to ruining my console, so I didn't let it go after I couldn't touch the cpu heatsink anymore because I assume the gpu heatsink is about 20-30 degrees fahrenheit warmer. It didn't get louder. Maybe my unit is defective. Oh well.... I can always go back to vaccum cleaner-style!!!!! (12v fan mod)
Post by: DanDini on July 13, 2007, 01:53:00 AM
QUOTE(MDA @ Nov 23 2006, 02:23 AM)
It is very possiable that yours is broke.
..Just jumping on the end of this old but semi-relevant thread:
I've been trying to repair a 360 given to me. I've resoldered the regulators and reapplied thermal paste to the heatsinks, but most recently had (apparently full) success with (very) localised heating of the GPU with a heat gun. All my testing showed that the problem was specific to the GPU temp, so I didn't heat anything else. Now - it all appears to work well, but the fans are running at full blast after around 15 seconds from switch on. This leads me to believe I've damaged the temperature sensor in some way.
Can anyone comment on this or has anyone had similar experience of this?
Thanks,
Dan
Post by: Sephy69 on July 14, 2007, 01:56:00 PM
Just to say my 360 does dynamically change the fan voltages :-)
Post by: ReaperX_BR on July 14, 2007, 05:44:00 PM
Post by: jimbobjim on July 14, 2007, 06:22:00 PM
QUOTE(ReaperX_BR @ Jul 15 2007, 01:20 AM)
Never seen that before, good call
Now all we need to know is... are the fans controlled by the CPU or the GPU temp?
Post by: brandogg on July 14, 2007, 07:20:00 PM
Post by: xzenor on July 15, 2007, 10:40:00 AM
I've accidentally run my 360 without the EC fan on....oops. When I hear the 360 case fans whinning.....obviously running at a much higher RPM....I run over to the EC and open the door. Extreme heat pours out.
I've done it during a demo, Forza2 I think it was.... I know for a fact the fans are dynamically controlled, my 360 sounds much different hot than normal operating temperature. The EC fan pulls allot of CFM through, so dont freak out saying my 360 is going to die. I know what Im doing.
My 2 cents, XzeneR
Post by: DanDini on July 16, 2007, 01:31:00 AM
QUOTE(succaworm @ Jul 15 2007, 12:04 PM)
I seen somebody with an iceberq heatsink but are there any other heatsinks that anyone has got 2 fit on the 360? because Ive been thinking about getting a replacment heatsink and just leaving the dvd drive external
I appear to have had success in keeping mine cool enough to run for at least a couple of hours (it managed a couple of minutes before).
I blocked off about 2/3 of the air vent that goes to the CPU with some card. I then added a fan to the CPU heatsink (blowing through it, towards the exhaust) to counterbalance the loss of air flow.
The additional airflow now afforded by the GPU appears to be enough to stop it crashing.
The problems I had with the fans going 100% after 10 seconds or so seemed to disappear when I put it all back together again.