Post by: Xbox-Scene on March 03, 2006, 03:40:00 PM
Why the Xbox 360 Supports HD DVD-- Posted by XanTium on March 3 17:04 EST
From the Team Xbox GamerScore Blog:
Quote
After reading Sunday's New York Times (requires registration), I really wanted to find out a bit more around HD DVD. So I sat down with some folks working on Xbox 360's upcoming HD DVD drive*, and asked: Why HD DVD? Why not Blu-Ray? (for the purpose of this post, I'll lovingly call it Beta-ray')
I found out a few interesting things on why we're so confident of HD DVD:
* Price. One company out there has a $1,800 Beta-ray player (no release date) - one that doesn't even play CDs! For 1,800, you could get a $500 Toshiba player, and about 40 HD movies.
* Industry support: Looks like the pendulum is swinging back in HD-DVD's favor. As an analyst quoted in the article says: "It's only a matter of time before people start backing out of the Blu-ray camp." If that's the case, it might be because of. . .
* Beta-ray's own difficulties: Microsoft had serious doubts around the technical feasibility and pricing of Beta-ray for some time and our fears now seem well founded. Sony is hinting PS3 will be delayed because of Beta-ray, and that's with Sony driving the Beta-ray standards. If even Sony can't get it to work right, it raises lots of questions. A little reported fact (and one that the New York Times was confused about) is that the first Beta-ray discs will actually hold less: only 25GB compared to HD DVD's 30GB. That means less room for high definition extras and interactive features, which HD DVD says they fully intend to support.
So there you have it. A few more reasons why HD DVD is poised to win. Thoughts?
Post by: lowendfrequency on March 03, 2006, 04:08:00 PM
QUOTE
A little reported fact (and one that the New York Times was confused about) is that the first Beta-ray discs will actually hold less: only 25GB compared to HD DVD's 30GB.
This is the point that the majority of people need to realize. The ONLY advantage that Blue-Ray has ever had in the format war is that it supposedly stores more. In reality, Blu-Ray is only a single layer medium. Dual layer BR discs have yet to be developed, and the initial players that are selling for $1k plus won't be able to read dual layered discs when they are finally released. HD-DVD on the other hand already has dual and triple layer discs, with a quad layer in development. Supposedly all HD-DVD drives will be able to read a minimum of four layers regardless.
So as far as game systems are concerned, the PS3's BR drive will only be able to read single layer 25GB discs... forever. The 360 on the other hand will be able to read 60GB HD-DVD's. What's that you say? They're cheaper too? Oh noes!!1
This post has been edited by lowendfrequency: Mar 4 2006, 12:08 AM
Post by: kidkinetix on March 03, 2006, 04:09:00 PM
Post by: zX_Storm on March 03, 2006, 04:19:00 PM
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 03, 2006, 04:19:00 PM
if m$ could release (or the price atleast) of their hd-dvd player in the next few months, then that would hurt the ps3 and blu-ray even more
Post by: zX_Storm on March 03, 2006, 03:50:00 PM
QUOTE(lowendfrequency @ Mar 3 2006, 07:39 PM) 
This is the point that the majority of people need to realize. The ONLY advantage that Blue-Ray has ever had in the format war is that it supposedly stores more. In reality, Blu-Ray is only a single layer medium. Dual layer BR discs have yet to be developed, and the initial players that are selling for $1k plus won't be able to read dual layered discs when they are finally released. HD-DVD on the other hand already has dual and triple layer discs, with a quad layer in development. Supposedly all HD-DVD drives will be able to read a minimum of four layers regardless.
So as far as game systems are concerned, the PS3's BR drive will only be able to read single layer 25GB discs... forever. The 360 on the other hand will be able to read 60GB HD-DVD's. What's that you say? They're cheaper too? Oh noes!!1
Have you actually read anything on this? The BR drive in the PS3 reads 50GB Dual Layer BR discs, single layer, plus all the old DVDs. The HD-DVD technology, Dual Layer is only 30GB max, 15GB single layer. It's on every documentation on it. Not to mention, there was a press release about a month ago about one of the dvd-r publishing companies that they can make BR single layer dvds that have a single layer of BR and a single layer of DVD, it works in both standard DVD players and BR. And the BR players were announced at $900, wherever they got this $1,800, I'm quite curious. HD-DVD cannot handle triple, quad. etc. layer discs. That was the BR, they can stack layers on the BR (was also tied into a press release). HOWEVER, BR is slower reading than HD-DVD. Which can be a drawback on some, but I don't think it's going to be the deciding factor.
Post by: Digitalden on March 03, 2006, 04:34:00 PM
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_05/pr1002.htm
This post has been edited by Digitalden: Mar 4 2006, 12:38 AM
Post by: mgamer20o0 on March 03, 2006, 04:42:00 PM
Post by: blackchild1101 on March 03, 2006, 04:13:00 PM
QUOTE(mgamer20o0 @ Mar 4 2006, 12:13 AM)
there is so much disinfomation out there. i read so much and everyone says something diffrent. until they are here who cares. even after they are out i wont care until someone wins. there are only a couple dvds that i would buy again on hi def dvds.
I concur. But I kbelieve that BR is the superior format.
Post by: limbfilter on March 03, 2006, 05:02:00 PM
QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Mar 3 2006, 05:57 PM) 
And the BR players were announced at $900, wherever they got this $1,800, I'm quite curious.
Yeah....funny how they compared the highest priced br player to the cheapest hddvd player...
Post by: maao on March 03, 2006, 04:47:00 PM
QUOTE(Xbox-Scene @ Mar 3 2006, 11:11 PM)
I found out a few interesting things on why we're so confident of HD DVD:
* Price. One company out there has a $1,800 Beta-ray player (no release date) - one that doesn't even play CDs! For 1,800, you could get a $500 Toshiba player, and about 40 HD movies.
Key word: "One company", just as there is probably "One company" that makes a rediculously expensive HD-DVD player.
QUOTE(Xbox-Scene @ Mar 3 2006, 11:11 PM)
* Industry support: Looks like the pendulum is swinging back in HD-DVD's favor. As an analyst quoted in the article says: "It's only a matter of time before people start backing out of the Blu-ray camp." If that's the case, it might be because of. . .
People won't back out of either camp. They'll just support both until one emerges the de facto. That will depend on consumers and content providers.
QUOTE(Xbox-Scene @ Mar 3 2006, 11:11 PM)
* Beta-ray's own difficulties: MS had serious doubts around the technical feasibility and pricing of Beta-ray for some time and our fears now seem well founded. Sony is hinting PS3 will be delayed because of Beta-ray, and that's with Sony driving the Beta-ray standards. If even Sony can't get it to work right, it raises lots of questions. A little reported fact (and one that the New York Times was confused about) is that the first Beta-ray discs will actually hold less: only 25GB compared to HD DVD's 30GB. That means less room for high definition extras and interactive features, which HD DVD says they fully intend to support.
This isn't just a technical issue. It's also a market issue. Timing is everything, and either can blow it if they don't time the market right. What's the point of having an HD DVD player if the majority of people don't have HDMI/HDCP support in their TV's? Heck! People don't even have HDCP capable monitors or video cards for computers so it makes no difference if Blu-Ray is out first or second!
As for size, Blu-Ray has always had the higher capacity. But if you take single layer Blu-Ray and compare it to dual-layer HD-DVD (note: dual-layer, not dual-sided), then yes, 30 GB is higher than 25 GB.
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 03, 2006, 05:28:00 PM
and three 15gb layers should be heaps for the next 8 years
Post by: joerehall on March 03, 2006, 07:14:00 PM
Post by: VinnySem on March 03, 2006, 07:30:00 PM
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 03, 2006, 06:54:00 PM
QUOTE(joerehall @ Mar 4 2006, 12:45 PM)
everyone needs to keep in mind that Betamax was far superior to VHS, but did it win? Being the superior format does not determine who will become the standard.
thats why hd dvd will win. it is accepted by the public and teh movie industry. it should win
Post by: maao on March 03, 2006, 07:09:00 PM
QUOTE(ferrari_rulz_02 @ Mar 4 2006, 03:01 AM) 
thats why hd dvd will win. it is accepted by the public and teh movie industry. it should win
Actually, neither is accepted by the public since they're not out yet, and currently the majority of the movie studios only support Blu-Ray. MS wants HD-DVD to win because it doesn't use Java and it doesn't support Sony. Sony wants Blu-Ray to win because they made it and will make lots of money from royalties. Bottomline is it makes no difference who "wins", since it's what I get for my money that matters the most. As far as I know, they both use similar compression for the HD video, so it's not really about quality. It's really only about quantity of material, cost, and whether I can burn onto blanks for cheap! In the latter two cases, HD-DVD seems like it's got Blu-Ray beat from all reports. But who knows. Betamax lost to VHS because it didn't get enough outside support (ie. licensees, content, etc.), and its capacity (only 1 hour). Looks like Sony's got both those fixed this time. Besides, Betamax vs. VHS was about users being able to record video. BD vs. HDDVD is really only about who's got the most desired content available. Recording will pretty much be secondary for a while, especially with hard drive based recording being much more convenient than manually recording TV, and the majority of people will only be burning regular DVD quality video for quite some time (due to media cost and burner availability).
Post by: zX_Storm on March 03, 2006, 07:17:00 PM
QUOTE(VinnySem @ Mar 3 2006, 11:01 PM)
Also keep in mind, if MS does go forward with HD-DVD support, will it be for games only? Any HD movie requires HDCP over HDMI or DVI, neither of which the 360 has 'yet'. Or will there be some new "HD Movie Pak" which will also have either HDMI or DVI hookup and a HD-DVD drive? I could see that costing damn near $250.
During M$ crappy conference a couple months back (posted here at X-S), they demo'd a "sample" HD movie. The features seemed pretty cool and all, but then I also would like to point out that DVD's support different "angles" viewing and what not, but barely any movie actually ended up supporting it. I don't think many movie companies care about the features of the hardware. As long as its popular. BTW, sony does own a big majority of DVD publishing. Think UMD.. Even if HD-DVD does goes well over, I dont' think Sony will give up, they're too big.
Post by: ChronoZaga on March 03, 2006, 07:45:00 PM
I'll eventually upgrade my PC to HD-DVD or Blu-ray for the high capacity of the disss, but I'm not playing the format war crap for movies. I'm sticking with DVDs till there's a decided winner and the security features are broken, so I can "backup" movies.
DVDs still look awesome on my HDTV, with an HD conversion player. HD-DVD or Blu-ray would have to offer more than I've seen to change my mind, cause "backing up" DVDs if cheap, and I already have the prerequisite hardware.
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 03, 2006, 08:25:00 PM
QUOTE(ChronoZaga @ Mar 4 2006, 01:45 PM)
DVDs still look awesome on my HDTV, with an HD conversion player. HD-DVD or Blu-ray would have to offer more than I've seen to change my mind, cause "backing up" DVDs if cheap, and I already have the prerequisite hardware.
thats a good point. a lot of people will stay with dvd because they can pirate them. even when the securitie features of hd dvd or blu-ray are broken, you then have to get burners and blank discs. while the technology is new, neither will be anywhere near cheap enough to pirate.
i still get the feeling that hd-dvd might just come out on top
Post by: puppydg68 on March 03, 2006, 08:43:00 PM
QUOTE(blackchild1101 @ Mar 3 2006, 11:20 PM)
I concur. But I kbelieve that BR is the superior format.
I've been following the format war for a long time, and it's well documented over at the digital bits..
The marketting guys keeps spinning HD-DVD to being 30 GB with Blu-Ray only 25.. But they keep comparing a Dual Layer HD-DVD (30GB Dual/15GB single) to the single Layer Blue-Ray (25GB).. Blue-ray has a higher capacity per layer no matter how many layers you want to stack.. Additionally out of 8 Major Hollywood studios, Blu-Ray has 7 of them signed on board. Last I've heard HD-DVD only has strong support from 3 major studios so far. There is no denying wethere you love or hate PS3, there will be an explosion of them in the market place, there is no way that on a standard consumer level sales they could distribute hd-dvd stand-alone players as fast as they will ps3. 20th Century fox has outright said "NO" to HD-DVD which means all fox titles will be blu-ray exclusive, as well as all of Sony/Tristar/Columbia pictures. The consumer market can't bear to have another format war for movies, in the end the winner will be most number of players and the ability for a complete library. Honestly would you buy a player that will never have a chance at any sony/columbia/tristar or fox hi-def movies.. That also means for the star wars fans, when lucas finally gets off his ass to make a hi-def release it will be Blue-ray. The biggest plus HD-DVD has is the brand, it's so simple everyone knows DVD, most do not know what the heck blu-ray is.. Everyone thinks that HD-DVD is just the natural progression of DVD and is therefore better. At one point they were having talks on combining the formats, but the talks fell apart, and now us the consumers will suffer until the winner is clear.
You don't need to take my word for it, do some reading on http://thedigitalbits.com/ they don't give a hoot about the console wars, and write everything based on consumer movie playback only. They were there for the whole DIVX(originally a circuit city - pay as a play) player and DVD player war. They prediced and watched the whole DIVX standalone sink, leaving only the codec behind to satisfy home encoders everywhere.
I also recommend reading the interview with Pioneers rep on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/ces2006/parsonsinterview.html
Post by: zviper on March 03, 2006, 09:12:00 PM
but for games hd-dvd seems to be my choice
Post by: Mikeizzle on March 03, 2006, 09:19:00 PM
10 years from now:
Dude in store: "hey dude, hollodisc is so gonna beat that gehy reddisc."
Other Dude: "No way man, reddisc is so much better"
Me "Hey, both of you shutup, i remember back in the day when we had to use friggin VHS!"
.
Post by: gg22mm on March 03, 2006, 09:31:00 PM
Anyways I think, based on this article, that they are supporting HDDVD for all the wrong reasons If they were supporting it just because Sony makes BlueRay, that would be one proper reason... 
Post by: puppydg68 on March 03, 2006, 11:25:00 PM
QUOTE(zviper @ Mar 4 2006, 04:19 AM)
ok but really for dvd movies what the HELL! are you going to use 25/30gb for just for one dvd movie?
but for games hd-dvd seems to be my choice
Well the whole point is that neither HD-DVD or Blu-RAY are DVD, they are next generation formats. The true HD Spec is 1080i (1920x1080), although many will support 1080p now. The Average bit-rate of a high quality HD stream at 1080i is 25-30Mbit/sec compared with 2-8Mbit/sec for standard DVD which is 720x480. It's approximately 3X the resolution and bitrate, for a stunning quality presentation.
While there isn't anything released yet, a transport stream pulled from Open Air HD or Satellite HD is on the average about 20 GB just for "Return of the King" and thats just with an AC3 Audio Track. These transport streams are much more compressed than what they wish to have on the next generation format. So yeah the numbers make sense for the movies.
Post by: explosive2 on March 04, 2006, 03:12:00 AM
I prefer HD DVD since it is cheaper so that I don't have to pay a lot when buying movies as I would if buying Blu-ray disks.
Plus, that Hybrid disk seems an awesome idea since movies could come in both DVD and HD DVD format in only one disk which is extremely convenient for all people in the world since some may not have a HD DVD player yet so it would suit everyone.
Post by: Gamester17 on March 04, 2006, 03:27:00 AM
QUOTE(lowendfrequency @ Mar 3 2006, 11:39 PM)
The ONLY advantage that Blue-Ray has ever had in the format war is that it supposedly stores more.
More DATA-storage yes, but not video (at least not for the first generation Blu-Ray HD-movies). The Blu-Ray players does support newer MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) video-compression format just like HD-DVD, but Sony and its allies has decided to use the 'old' MPEG-2 video-compression format at first and then later move over to MPEG-4 AVC (maybe in a couple of years!?), however the HD-DVD camp will use MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) from the beginning in the first generation of HD-DVD HD-movies. MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) video offers approximently a 1:10 compression-ratio compared to MPEG-2 (in theory), meaning a MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) should be able to fit 10-times the lenght of same quality video per GB (GigaByte) of storage, making the Blu-Ray's 50GB disc size no advantage compared to HD-DVD's 30GB disc when the video is compress from the same source.Now this does not mean that you could take a 50GB Blu-Ray movie in MPEG-2 and compress it from there to 5GB keeping the same quality, what it does mean that if the movie-studio/producers take the original uncompressed high-deffinition video (lets say 1,000GB for the sake of the argument) and compess that with the MPEG-2 format they might end up with a 50GB video, (you will loose some quality in this process as with any transcoding), but if they take original uncompressed high-deffinition video (of 1,000GB) and compress it directly to the MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) format they migth end up with a 15GB movie (if they use a higher-bitrate to keep more quality) and that 15GB MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) movie will have better quality than the 50GB MPEG-2 video which was made form the same source, simply beause the MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) has a much better compression-ratio than MPEG-2.
Post by: Pheidias on March 04, 2006, 05:51:00 AM
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 04, 2006, 05:53:00 AM
after all, its the big companies that will make or break the formats.
Post by: banchiau on March 04, 2006, 07:38:00 AM
Post by: sunnyd71 on March 04, 2006, 07:57:00 AM
I'm not buying either for at least another year and then will probably just go with Blu-ray since it will come with the ps3 I'm probably going to buy.
Post by: puppydg68 on March 04, 2006, 11:09:00 AM
QUOTE(sunnyd71 @ Mar 4 2006, 03:04 PM)
There was also an article that said to manufacture Blu-Ray companies will have to spend millions to upgrade facilities and technologies, with all new equipment. But HD-DVD requires minor upgrades costing only a few hundred thousand dollars. That can make a huge difference in disk cost. Sony said Blu-ray disks will be $20-$30 in wholesale, which means the consumer will be paying much more. DVDs in wholesale are roughly $10 or less I believe. Also M$ can make windows only support HD-DVD or if they really want to please consumers make the upgrade for the 360 also be able to connect to a computer though this might create problems with encryption.
I'm not buying either for at least another year and then will probably just go with Blu-ray since it will come with the ps3 I'm probably going to buy.
Blu-ray makes the PS3 a no brainer, because it will be your cheapest stand-alone Hi-def player when it comes out, nevermind that it can play games. That is what sony and the studios are counting on, this is why they will take a large bath on the cost of the ps3. Remember for sony, it's not just the licensing for the games with ps3, it's also having licensing for the movies.. Remember Sony owns Sony picutres and MGM so they already own part of the movie biz. They will have 2 of the largest industries, licensing through them for their hi-def blu-ray and ps3 gaming technology. For some reason Bill Doesn't like this, and of course CAN'T support blu-ray
The pricing of Blu-ray vs HD-DVD is way over hyped. It's a matter of dollars.. here is the official line from the Sony Blu-ray Launch titles. "The studio will debut eight titles on 5/23 - 50 First Dates, The Fifth Element, Hitch, House of Flying Daggers, A Knight's Tale, The Last Waltz (via MGM), Resident Evil: Apocalypse and xXx, which should all sell for around $25 each."
But it's not going to be a big matter in the long run about going to the store and chosing between a $25 copy of Aliens on Blu-ray and a $23 HDTV. There will be no $23 HDTV because fox doesn't support HD-DVD or MGM pictures. Some people are losing sight of this.
Post by: VinnySem on March 04, 2006, 11:39:00 AM
Post by: icefreon on March 04, 2006, 12:38:00 PM
Post by: Disco_Gee on March 04, 2006, 06:49:00 PM
QUOTE(VinnySem @ Mar 4 2006, 07:46 PM)
One of the features I like about HD-DVD which MS is pushing is managed copying. Take a movie you own, archive it to your HTPC server, and voila! every extender node on your network can watch it... imagine that, legal rips!
Meh. I'd rather just crack the copy protection and be the one to decide how many bakups of my movies I make, and where I play them.
Post by: bubbathemaster on March 04, 2006, 07:39:00 PM
Post by: The Bat on March 04, 2006, 09:10:00 PM
Even with Sony owning both Blu-Ray and some major movie studios, it would seem that there'll be reluctance at supporting unproven movie formats like what we've seen with UMD movies. An inexpensive HD-DVD drive for the 360, like in the $75-$99 range, and the PS3 supporting Blu-Ray movies out of the box might encourage some to pick up a few movies in the new format for the hell of it, but that alone might not be enough to provide incentive to the movie studios.
Those with a HDTV instead of a CRT TV won't flinch as much at having to spend a few hundred dollars more for the cheapest player. If a majority of HDTV owners want to take a plunge on a non-standard new format, and they purchase as many new movies as possible in that format, that'll probably be the incentive which the studios need. But even if that does happen, the split between the formats and their consumer support will likely be too close to 50/50 to call a winner.
The only prediction I can make is that this format war is going to be long and messy. In fact, I might even have an HDTV by then.
Post by: Ahasver on March 04, 2006, 09:28:00 PM
Blu-ray has by far more movie support and exclusives than HD DVD. currentely there are no companies leaving the blu-ray camp. the only company that supposidly did HP is actually STILL on the Blu-ray side they are just supporting both formats now.
and the ELITE Blu-ray player for 1800$.. how many fools use their DVD players to play CDs anyway? thats a stupid argument. i don't think my DVD player has EVER seen a CD in its life. and i have 5 DVD players around the house including my computers.
Post by: Lifter on March 05, 2006, 12:31:00 AM
There will be no winner in this format war. None. There will be a stalemate and at some point, every high-def disc player will playback both formats. Movies on Sony Pictures Entertainment will always be Blu-Ray, and they'll never give up on it.
As for people's personal preference, I just don't get it. Nobody knows what the prices are going to be like. What is known is that Blu-Ray is BETTER. Now I'm not a "fan" of one or the other - it's not a matter subjective opinion. Blu-Ray holds more space. That is the only thing that matters to us consumers. You can argue that price matters, but I say it's all artificial. You think 2 years from now, BR discs will cost more than HD-DVD (or vice-versa)? Uh-huh. Sure. I'm not talking about manufacturing costs or other things that have nothing to do with anyone here. I'm talking about what it costs you the consumer.
Price is always artificial. Doesn't matter one bit to us that one format may be cheaper than the other. Just because one format will end up costing 13 cents to produce vs. 10 cents - they're still going to charge $15-$40 for these things based on whatever the market allows them to charge.
I just can't stand all these idiots pretending like they're industry insiders and that any of these issues affect them whatsoever. You are a CONSUMER. That's it. All you should care about is how much space it holds, when it's coming out, and how much will it cost. The latter two are up in the air but eventually they will both be available, and they will both cost YOU THE CONSUMER the same amount of money. You think Best Buy is going to charge more for movies on BR vs. movies on HD-DVD? Not a frickin chance. But we already know how much space each one holds.
I hate Sony's proprieter gulag as well. The MiniDisc, the Memory Stick, movies on PSP, going way back to Betamax. But they are making a superior product. End of story. And I don't care who wins because nobody will. Both formats will continue to exist and customers will have disc players that will play both formats - so it will be transparent to them.
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 05, 2006, 03:19:00 AM
QUOTE(Lifter @ Mar 5 2006, 06:38 PM)
Both formats will continue to exist and customers will have disc players that will play both formats - so it will be transparent to them.
good point. if it comes to it that neitehr party wills tep down, and we have two HD formats, then we will get players that will ply both. they both use the same type of laser, aso it wont take long to get players on teh market that will read cd/dvd/hd-dvd/blu-ray.
Post by: pcfreakx on March 05, 2006, 09:59:00 AM
The current X360 (of which I own one so I am not an Anti-MS zealot) DOES NOT AND WILL NOT SUPPORT HDMI/HDCP. That must be implemented at the firmware of the video controller. Simply not possible. And I can tell you that there is word that MS will have to make another version of the X360 to even support HDMI. So if you own an X360 now you are outta luck either way. The announcement at CES was purely distractionary to disrupt the Blu-Ray buzz at CES. If it werent' for MS, HD-DVD would already be dead. Out of the 6 major studios, 5 support Blu-ray. 2 that were exclusive to HD-DVD (Paramount and Warner Bros) have moved to support both leaving ONLY ONE studio exclusive to HD-DVD (Universal). If you made a percentage to represent the currently available DVD movie library, HD-DVD would only have 30% of all available titles while Blu-Ray would be able to boast 90% of all the available library currently on DVD.
Let's talk about price. Am I the only one that remembers that Toshiba first announced the HD-DVD player would be $1000 and it would only do HD quality via encrypted HDMI? Now that it seems like Blu-Ray is gonna kill them (and btw, Gartner, Forrester and other research groups have all predicted BLu-ray will be the dominant format) the prices for their first players have dropped to $500 and $800. Coincidence? I don't think so. And HP softened their stance to supposedly support both formats cause MS put significant pressure on them (this comes from an HP insider I've spoken with - not made up). Disney and MS co-developed the iHD layer that HD-DVD uses and MS/HP are the only ones complaining that it isn't in the BLu-Ray spec - not even Disney cares that much about that. Of course Blu-Ray uses Java as their layer which is the main reason MS wants it gone. Furthermore, anti-MS sentiment in the Blu-Ray camp have led all of those partners to shy away from MS's VC-1 (WMV9) codec and instead use MPEG2 or H.264/AVC/MPEG4-Part 10. This is purely cause of MS's heavy handed tactics in this part of the industry. And while we are on price, it is important to keep perspective. The $1800 model that everyone uses as an example is NOT the same as the model Toshiba is offering. If you think a Pioneer elite player that plays Blu-Ray, streams multimedia formats over a network with the Digital Network Architecture protocol (WMA, MP3 . . .) and puts out all video at up to true 1080p, is the same as toshiba's plain jane player with 1080i output you are nuts. Keep in mind that HDMI version 1.3 that will support 1080p hasn't even been ratified so this is a significantly new thing they are doing. And every Blu-Ray player on the floor (except for Samsung's first model) supports true 1080p. NONE OF THE HD-DVD PLAYERS SUPPORT 1080P. And many TV's this year will support true 1080p in. The Blu-Ray camp have gone after a significantly different level of video performance. 1080/24psf (profressive segmented frames) is the format which hollywood digitally archives their films and that same quality will be delivered on the first Blu-Ray players.
As far as external drives go, Samsung showed an external Blu-Ray drive for PC's that should launch around $500. That is in the same ballpark as the HD-DVD external drives that are expected to ship for $500. You think MS is gonna sell a $500 add-on to a $300 console?!?!? You think they will subsidize the cost of an external and sink more into debt on the xbox division just so you can watch movies? And the AACS forum (the copy protection scheme used by BOTH CAMPS) recently ruled that studios can put a flag on the disc that MUST FORCE THE ANALOG OUTPUTS to 960x540p - 1 quarter the true rez of the disk and only slightly better than DVD. You gonna spend $500 for slighly better than DVD? Or are you gonna buy a new version of the 360 ($300) to support the encrypted digital out and then the $500 add on to get the full resolution? Wow, $800 after my intitial $400 for a premium system doesn't see so cheap. So if you know all the facts it is really commendable Sony is trying to deliver True 1080p over encrypted HDMI so people can play HD movies straight outta the box at full quality. MS screwed up, misread the market and didn't implement HDMI and now they have to try to fix it. YOU WILL SEE ANOTHER REV OF THE 360 with this added. Flame me now, but revisit this forum in 9 months and you can apologize.
And the FUD about layers just kills me. Panasonic has shown a laptop slimline BDROM drive for a laptop that can read dual layers, why the hell do you think Sony can't do it for the PS3?!?!? I've seen the drive, open and playing a frickin' movie at CES. And MS's guys say they haven't even made dual layer discs yet outside of a lab. Another piece of FUD. TDK has said several times that they currently produce them and are ready to go.
Sure Blu-Ray is more expensive to make. Did you cry when we went from Tape to CD? How about VHS to DVD? Those were much more significant differences and we seem to all have made it out just fine.
Finally I want to mention another major advantage between the two formats - Speed. The first movies authored on Blu-Ray wouldn't even play on HD-DVD. Fifth Element will supposedly offer video at 35Mbps and 5.1 UNCOMPRESSED audio. The max video bitrate for BDROM is 48Mbps which is way more than the total max bandwidth of HD-DVD at something in the mid 30's. The BLu-Ray camp has demonstrated that they should be able to hit 10x within a couple of years. This equates to 360Mbps of bandwidth which would be amazing to burn and read on a PC. And yes, I am aware that you can get better efficientcy if you don't use MPEG2 and instead use AVC. But, for the 2 years I've seen these demos at CES, the VC1 and AVC content looks far worse than MPEG2. My opinion is this is purely because MPEG2 encoders and decoders are so much more mature. It will certainly get better, but personally I want the best picture possible - I could care less what algorithm they use.
So, sorry to dissappoint, but the writing is on the wall. Look at the supporters. On the Blu-Ray side you have Dell, Apple, HP, Samsung and Sony. That is something like 90% of all PC's shipped. On the other side you have Hitachi, Toshiba and NEC - come on. And let's look at electronics brands. Sony, Sharp, Samsung, Mitsubishi, Pioneer on the Blu-Ray side. HD-DVD - Toshiba, Sanyo and RCA. Do you go to the store to buy an RCA or a Sanyo product? Do you see these Sam's CLub brands doing well on the market vs the Pioneer or Sony players who are targeting early adopters specifically looking for HD capability? It really is a shame that HD-DVD players won't be able to show the full 1080p functionality that will be on the discs. They have definitely gone for the cheaper route.
Okay, if I'm off on some of the facts, please point it out and send a link to an article showing where I'm off.
Post by: imagenius on March 05, 2006, 11:07:00 AM
Damn! I had to take a breath after that one. Good post
Post by: BasicAir on March 05, 2006, 01:11:00 PM
QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Mar 3 2006, 11:57 PM)
Have you actually read anything on this? The BR drive in the PS3 reads 50GB Dual Layer BR discs, single layer, plus all the old DVDs. The HD-DVD technology, Dual Layer is only 30GB max, 15GB single layer. It's on every documentation on it. Not to mention, there was a press release about a month ago about one of the dvd-r publishing companies that they can make BR single layer dvds that have a single layer of BR and a single layer of DVD, it works in both standard DVD players and BR. And the BR players were announced at $900, wherever they got this $1,800, I'm quite curious. HD-DVD cannot handle triple, quad. etc. layer discs. That was the BR, they can stack layers on the BR (was also tied into a press release). HOWEVER, BR is slower reading than HD-DVD. Which can be a drawback on some, but I don't think it's going to be the deciding factor.
You are wrong on a few things.
HD-DVD can hold up to 3 layers. They can hold up to 45 GB on one side. They will be pumping out $30 HD movies that havd on one side of the disc 30GB HD versions of the movie and on the other side 8.5 GB 480P/480i versions of the movie.
This new article definately looks like BR is doomed.
Post by: BasicAir on March 05, 2006, 01:35:00 PM
It doesn't even talk about Blu-Ray, really, it's strictly an article, more or less about HD-DVD. At least, probably until they update it to a version 2.0 of the article or something which they may do. I don't know.
http://editorials.te...ode-I-HD-DVD/p1
ESPECIALLY pay attention to pagees 3 and 4 if you only want to read all the technical information on the HD-DVD.
You'll even see cool pictures like this of the 15GB / 30GB / 45 GB discs:
http://media.teamxbo...hree_hddvds.jpg
It's a very great read.
By the way, I am planning on buying tge HD-XA1 by Toshiba ($799.99) and the HD-A1 ($499.99) HD-DVD players that are going to be released by Toshiba this month so within 3-3.5 weeks it'll be available.
Crutchfield.com, Amazon.com, BestBuy.com and Best Buy stores and other stores are already taking pre-orders. It's probably going to sell out right away.
It should be mentioned NO retail store I know of, personally, except possible high-end ones that are regional and not in every state (like Ultimate Electronics here in the U.S.) will be carrying the higher-end one.
If you want more info on the different versions (there really isn't much of a difference so I'm surprised the prise difference is so much more) goto Toshiba.com or Crutchfield.com, etc. and look at the details of 'em both.
I'm buying them to sell on eBay for profit.
Post by: Roland on March 06, 2006, 02:14:00 AM
because Sony and Toshiba are letting high-level Hollywood studio executives control the market (here's hoping that the potential market is still-born if Sony/Toshiba/MS won't stand up for their customer's rights not to be screwed just because their customers were early adopters who bought High-Definition televisions...wait isn't that an oxymoron like military intelligence...Sony/Toshiba/MS and great personal service? 
) ==>http://gear.ign.com/articles/691/691408p1.html
You think copy protection in the past was bad? As least you didn't have to invest in a whole new graphics card/TV/monitor etc. Hollywood (along with Sony and Toshiba and MS) deserve to choke to death on their greed. And let's get one thing straight...MS and Sony are both heartless corporate machines out to increase their bottom line. Just because I might respect them doesn't mean I like them or worship them like a bunch of the fanboys who like to post here (and at PS3Scene.com).
In the end I think Lifter is closest to the truth...all players (probably by 2007) will play both formats...neither side will "win"...they will just split the market and confuse/annoy consumers.
Post by: mikedavis2838 on March 06, 2006, 02:10:00 AM
QUOTE(pcfreakx @ Mar 5 2006, 05:59 PM)
This topic is always so loaded with FUD it is unbelievable. First of all let me get some facts straight:
The current X360 (of which I own one so I am not an Anti-MS zealot) DOES NOT AND WILL NOT SUPPORT HDMI/HDCP. That must be implemented at the firmware of the video controller. Simply not possible. You think MS is gonna sell a $500 add-on to a $300 console?!?!? Y
Alright, first off the external drive can have HDMI output itself, no need for the video out on the xbox to be HDMI, and second of all do you think that the drive sony is putting in cost them $500. The standalone drives have to have lots more parts than the drives they are using. It may have been Kenny boy that said the ps3 will do all the the proccesing so no need for all the extra stuff. The same thing will happen with the 360, it will have the ability to be priced much cheaper that any stand-alone HD-DVD drive because the 360 will do all the processing.
Also i have not heard that movies will be recorded in 1080p and downconverted to for tv's that don't support it. I had thought it was the other way around. Can i have a link?
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 06, 2006, 04:22:00 AM
QUOTE(mikedavis2838 @ Mar 6 2006, 08:17 PM)
The same thing will happen with the 360, it will have the ability to be priced much cheaper that any stand-alone HD-DVD drive because the 360 will do all the processing.
it coudl also be because of high-volume production. not ultra-high volume, but higher then standalone players.
and besides, all it needs that is majorly different from a normal dvd drive is the laser. all it does is read the disc and pass that info on to the console. a standalone player has to extract the video and audio info, and processes that so it can be used.
Post by: BasicAir on March 06, 2006, 09:48:00 AM
QUOTE(Roland @ Mar 6 2006, 10:14 AM)
My kudos to Lifter and pcfreakx...some great information in your posts (in support of Blu-Ray). Also compliments to BasicAir for another fine post (in support of HD-DVD).
...............
In the end I think Lifter is closest to the truth...all players (probably by 2007) will play both formats...neither side will "win"...they will just split the market and confuse/annoy consumers.
Thanks for the kudos. Keep in mind though it wasn't like my article posting had anything to do with Blu-Ray though and thus wasn't "in support" necessarilly of HD-DVD, but I can see where you drew that conclusion so that's okay.
The other thing I wanted to comment on is, no, Toshiba is coming out with the HD-A1 ($499) and HD-XA1 ($799) HD-DVD standalones within weeks, not by 2007.
Post by: bonkers255 on March 06, 2006, 11:45:00 AM
QUOTE(BasicAir @ Mar 6 2006, 10:55 AM)
The other thing I wanted to comment on is, no, Toshiba is coming out with the HD-A1 ($499) and HD-XA1 ($799) HD-DVD standalones within weeks, not by 2007.
I think that means that most players out in 2007 will support both formats (BR and HD-DVD). The first units will only support one format (except for maybe an LG model). But I expect in the end that both formats will be supported by any unit in a few years.
Also, to the poster who mentioned DVD-A and SACD, I have a dedicated player for those formats. Any audiophile will tell you those formats are amazing. Also, anyone with a decent surround system can easily enjoy them as well. I would highly recommend giving them a try.
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 06, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
QUOTE(bonkers255 @ Mar 7 2006, 05:45 AM)
I think that means that most players out in 2007 will support both formats (BR and HD-DVD). The first units will only support one format (except for maybe an LG model). But I expect in the end that both formats will be supported by any unit in a few years.
thats what i believe. i cant see how that dedicated players would stay on teh market for a long time. id say by teh end of the year, we will start to see more 'main stream' players become avialble, ableit very expensive still
Post by: Lifter on March 07, 2006, 01:11:00 AM
QUOTE(pcfreakx @ Mar 5 2006, 05:59 PM)
Keep in mind that HDMI version 1.3 that will support 1080p hasn't even been ratified so this is a significantly new thing they are doing. And every Blu-Ray player on the floor (except for Samsung's first model) supports true 1080p. NONE OF THE HD-DVD PLAYERS SUPPORT 1080P. And many TV's this year will support true 1080p in. The Blu-Ray camp have gone after a significantly different level of video performance. 1080/24psf (profressive segmented frames) is the format which hollywood digitally archives their films and that same quality will be delivered on the first Blu-Ray players.
Your post was absolutely fantastic... except for this part I quoted. You are massively overstating and mistaken about the significance of 1080p on BR discs and players.
You will not see a difference between 1080PsF24 and 1080i60 with 3:2 pulldown removed. They are 100% identical when viewed on the TV set. Because the telecine (inside an HD-DVD player) and the inverse telecine (inside the TV set) take place in a digital, uncompressed domain. It is a lossless process. Long story short, a native 1080p24 output is pretty much useless for a consumer and will give you no benefit whatsoever over 1080i w/ 3:2 pulldown added.
BluRay is supposed to support 1080p60 if I'm not mistaken. That is what the significant "1080p advantage" is. Of course this applies to games only, since there is no film or television content yet shot at 1080p60 (nor should there ever be - the look of 24fps is what defines motion pictures). Maybe live events, TV shows, educational stuff, IMAX stuff - you might eventually see stuff like that produced on 1080p60 (once the cameras actually become available which right now they are not). But regular movies are 24fps so a 1080i60 signal is all you need to display that format with perfection.
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on March 07, 2006, 03:18:00 PM
QUOTE(Lifter @ Mar 7 2006, 07:11 PM)
once the cameras actually become available which right now they are not
and i doubt that they will be for a while. the data bandwidth required to film at that resolution and frame rate is enormous. and you wont really see any ebnefit of it unless you have a tv that is about 3 meteres wide.