Post by: bzerk187 on October 31, 2005, 02:10:00 PM
The reason I ask is because with the past several generations of consoles, the PC market had something that looked significantly "better" at the time of the (consoles) launch. Will a console (X360) finally be superior to the PC? (At least for a little while?)
Post by: Shawn_ on October 31, 2005, 02:18:00 PM
Post by: Joergen on October 31, 2005, 05:21:00 PM
And factor in that you can SLI the 7800GTX which is (single) faster in almost everything than a X1800XT, you already have a high-end GPU times TWO on the PC, and it actually is about twice as fast in games where the CPU isnt the limiting factor.
The PS3 hype is just ridiculous when people forget that one of the LEADING GPU manufacturers in the world is giving sony 50% of what makes the games and all they talk about is cell cell cell. In 2006 or early 2007 nvidia will hammer anything in the PS3 with their PC part.
Post by: Joergen on October 31, 2005, 05:54:00 PM
Post by: TheMuffinMan on October 31, 2005, 07:29:00 PM
Post by: m_hael on October 31, 2005, 09:06:00 PM
QUOTE(Joergen @ Oct 31 2005, 07:05 PM)
And I forgot transparency AA which a new feature in the 7800 series and neither the Xenos nor the X1800 series feature. This means if you use hard translucency for textures (like tree leaves, bushes, grass) their edges will still be jaggy even with 4x FSAA on. Of course the devs should opt for smooth translucency whenever possible to avoid this, but thats not possible if you want to apply shaders to the texture.
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: bzerk187 on October 31, 2005, 09:30:00 PM
-
Post by: bzerk187 on October 31, 2005, 09:30:00 PM
QUOTE(TheMuffinMan @ Oct 31 2005, 10:40 PM)
You guys should read the news more often on main page, it clearly states that ATI's latest cards the X 1800's or what not are less powerful than that of the 360's so you'll have to wait to catch up graphics wise. Then you look at the processors and compare.
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: incognegro on October 31, 2005, 09:32:00 PM
-
Yea I think it was the xenos is faster at higher resolutions
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: m_hael on October 31, 2005, 10:11:00 PM
-
a simple example of why Mhz!=Power
robot A has 2 hands and can move them both at 1.0Ghz both at the same time but can only grab 1 lb at a time. @ moving 2lb bricks from one pile to another he essentially rates @ 1Ghz bricks (2 hands per brick.
a different robot ( B ) has 2 hands and can move them both at 0.5Ghz both at the same time each able to grab 4lb at a time. @ moving 2lb bricks from one pile to another he essentially rates @ 1Ghz bricks (1 hand per brick, 1 brick each hand @ 500Mhz).
Now decrease the bricks to 1lb each... suddenly the picture changes... Robot A rates @ 2Ghz Bricks, Robot B remains the same.
Increase the bricks to 3lb... suddenly Robot A cannot handle it... yet Robot B does things exactly the same and remains at the same speed.
Did the Speed of the CPU (hands) denote the "power" of the system here... from this simple example you should understand that while Ghz are easy to understand... the defining factors in CPU/GPU design and use are not encompassed within the number on the box, nor are all CPU/GPU's the same.
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: Joergen on November 01, 2005, 11:19:00 AM
-
Post by: incognegro on October 31, 2005, 09:32:00 PM
Post by: m_hael on October 31, 2005, 10:11:00 PM
robot A has 2 hands and can move them both at 1.0Ghz both at the same time but can only grab 1 lb at a time. @ moving 2lb bricks from one pile to another he essentially rates @ 1Ghz bricks (2 hands per brick.
a different robot ( B ) has 2 hands and can move them both at 0.5Ghz both at the same time each able to grab 4lb at a time. @ moving 2lb bricks from one pile to another he essentially rates @ 1Ghz bricks (1 hand per brick, 1 brick each hand @ 500Mhz).
Now decrease the bricks to 1lb each... suddenly the picture changes... Robot A rates @ 2Ghz Bricks, Robot B remains the same.
Increase the bricks to 3lb... suddenly Robot A cannot handle it... yet Robot B does things exactly the same and remains at the same speed.
Did the Speed of the CPU (hands) denote the "power" of the system here... from this simple example you should understand that while Ghz are easy to understand... the defining factors in CPU/GPU design and use are not encompassed within the number on the box, nor are all CPU/GPU's the same.
Post by: Joergen on November 01, 2005, 11:19:00 AM
QUOTE(m_hael @ Nov 1 2005, 06:17 AM)
re 4xFSAA - you are most definitely categorically and logically wrong... but its fun to post aint it?
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: m_hael on November 01, 2005, 11:28:00 AM
-
my point was that a hard edge in ANY form is smoothed out by 4xFSAA, granted there are better technques but FSAA doesn't just "miss out" alpha'd edges.... it does nothing with edges at all.. it simply smooths out the ENTIRE screen.
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: Joergen on November 01, 2005, 11:35:00 AM
-
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: Joergen on November 01, 2005, 11:41:00 AM
-
press once get three.
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: Joergen on November 01, 2005, 11:42:00 AM
-
And look I'm not trying to say they are lying and omitted an important feature in the AA, but for me it seems they are not using Adaptive AA and most certainly not supersampling AA (that would quadruple the shader load).
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: m_hael on November 01, 2005, 05:12:00 PM
-
Post by: m_hael on November 01, 2005, 11:28:00 AM
Post by: Joergen on November 01, 2005, 11:35:00 AM
Post by: Joergen on November 01, 2005, 11:41:00 AM
Post by: Joergen on November 01, 2005, 11:42:00 AM
Post by: m_hael on November 01, 2005, 05:12:00 PM
QUOTE(Joergen @ Nov 1 2005, 12:53 PM)
And look I'm not trying to say they are lying and omitted an important feature in the AA, but for me it seems they are not using Adaptive AA and most certainly not supersampling AA (that would quadruple the shader load).
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: Carlo210 on November 01, 2005, 06:54:00 PM
-
Post by: Carlo210 on November 01, 2005, 06:54:00 PM
QUOTE(Jason9875 @ Nov 2 2005, 03:44 AM)
4x Full Screen Anti Aliasing.
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: Joergen on November 02, 2005, 10:25:00 AM
-
Supersampling is an nvidia gimmick from way back when (GF2?) and unless its supersampling it wont just "smooth out" everything magically.
4X FSAA means 4X multisampling AA which just analyses the edges of polygons based on what the zbuffer data says are visible. The word Full Screen Anti-Aliasing comes from Voodoo1 days when it was a buzz word for what some upcoming cards woul do (and of course they really didnt untill they had enough bandwidth to handle it).
These days you can also program AA via shaders and no doubt they could do something extra to AA the crude edges of 2bit transparency textures, but unless they do, I'm afraid its just plain 4x Multisampling.
Then on a sidenote, I dont even like AA nor bloom nor any other glaucoma effects. 4X AA would be most beneficial at the SD resolutions where screen size and pixel size make for a lego-fest. But at 720p I wont be missing it too much (though it will be beneficial with large screens).
We wouldnt even need TSAA if all the transparencies in the current games were "Battlefield 1942 trees" (play it see it) or soft alpha. But the devs have chosen hard 2bit alpha for everything now and it needs to be antialiased.
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: m_hael on November 03, 2005, 03:15:00 AM
-
one... FSAA does NOT stand for FULL SCREEN ANTI-ALIASING... it stands for FULL SCENE ANTI-ALIASING. Given this ANY technique which applies itself to the entire scene is FSAA.
MSAA == FSAA (essentially edge detection using delta Z calculations, expensive on Zbuffer but not on the color buffer)
SSAA == FSAA (essentially X times more resolution on the front buffer, expensive overall, provides the best results but costs a phenomenal amount of GPU power)
secondly - while I can't reveal the requirements for xbox 360 I can tell you this...
a game running in 720p without AA at all looks fantastic,
a game running 2xFSAAx720p looks better, smoother...
a game running 4xFSAA looks marginally better.
a game running in 720p applying full screen motion blur, bloom effects, Depth of field and also using FSAA looks amazing.
stop complaining... stop guessing.... we're not allowed to tell you whats required, whats happening or what will happen. Look, see, absorb and marvel and how smooth things look when done correctly.
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: 110100100 on November 03, 2005, 06:21:00 PM
-
Post by: Joergen on November 02, 2005, 10:25:00 AM
4X FSAA means 4X multisampling AA which just analyses the edges of polygons based on what the zbuffer data says are visible. The word Full Screen Anti-Aliasing comes from Voodoo1 days when it was a buzz word for what some upcoming cards woul do (and of course they really didnt untill they had enough bandwidth to handle it).
These days you can also program AA via shaders and no doubt they could do something extra to AA the crude edges of 2bit transparency textures, but unless they do, I'm afraid its just plain 4x Multisampling.
Then on a sidenote, I dont even like AA nor bloom nor any other glaucoma effects. 4X AA would be most beneficial at the SD resolutions where screen size and pixel size make for a lego-fest. But at 720p I wont be missing it too much (though it will be beneficial with large screens).
We wouldnt even need TSAA if all the transparencies in the current games were "Battlefield 1942 trees" (play it see it) or soft alpha. But the devs have chosen hard 2bit alpha for everything now and it needs to be antialiased.
Post by: m_hael on November 03, 2005, 03:15:00 AM
MSAA == FSAA (essentially edge detection using delta Z calculations, expensive on Zbuffer but not on the color buffer)
SSAA == FSAA (essentially X times more resolution on the front buffer, expensive overall, provides the best results but costs a phenomenal amount of GPU power)
secondly - while I can't reveal the requirements for xbox 360 I can tell you this...
a game running in 720p without AA at all looks fantastic,
a game running 2xFSAAx720p looks better, smoother...
a game running 4xFSAA looks marginally better.
a game running in 720p applying full screen motion blur, bloom effects, Depth of field and also using FSAA looks amazing.
stop complaining... stop guessing.... we're not allowed to tell you whats required, whats happening or what will happen. Look, see, absorb and marvel and how smooth things look when done correctly.
Post by: 110100100 on November 03, 2005, 06:21:00 PM
QUOTE(Joergen @ Nov 1 2005, 11:42 AM)
And while the 10MB edram is already too small for 720p
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: Joergen on November 03, 2005, 08:46:00 PM
-
And hopefully they wont shy away from letting the interlaced SD signal be clear and crisp (with some flicker filtering surely) with true AA, and not just blurring it out with the soften filter in the tv-out chip itself like on the old xbox. Not that I will be using SD, but for the unlightened ones' benefit.
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: Joergen on November 05, 2005, 04:29:00 PM
-
I know alot of the time screenshots released of games are not taken or screened by the dev teams who care most about what their baby looks like, but still interesting to see such a lapse from such a respected developer.
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: twistedsymphony on November 05, 2005, 11:06:00 PM
-
Post by: Joergen on November 03, 2005, 08:46:00 PM
And hopefully they wont shy away from letting the interlaced SD signal be clear and crisp (with some flicker filtering surely) with true AA, and not just blurring it out with the soften filter in the tv-out chip itself like on the old xbox. Not that I will be using SD, but for the unlightened ones' benefit.
Post by: Joergen on November 05, 2005, 04:29:00 PM
I know alot of the time screenshots released of games are not taken or screened by the dev teams who care most about what their baby looks like, but still interesting to see such a lapse from such a respected developer.
Post by: twistedsymphony on November 05, 2005, 11:06:00 PM
QUOTE(Joergen @ Nov 5 2005, 06:36 PM)
Funny thing I just saw that relates to this whole TSAA thing:
-
Title: Comparable Pc 3d Hardware To X360....
Post by: m_hael on November 06, 2005, 01:49:00 AM
-
Post by: m_hael on November 06, 2005, 01:49:00 AM
QUOTE(Joergen @ Nov 5 2005, 04:36 PM)
Funny thing I just saw that relates to this whole TSAA thing: