Post by: {Sephiroth} on September 09, 2005, 11:58:00 AM
Post by: twistedsymphony on September 09, 2005, 12:40:00 PM
If it's anything like the current Gen Xbox MS has arbitrarily capped the amount of storage they can use so that the outer edge of the disc can receive damage without loosing data.
Also we have no idea how much space might be lost to any mandatory data encryption, dash-updates etc.
This post has been edited by twistedsymphony: Sep 9 2005, 07:42 PM
Post by: {Sephiroth} on September 09, 2005, 12:46:00 PM
Post by: Deftech on September 09, 2005, 12:52:00 PM
I can find the video interview where the lead designer says the disc does hold 9. I just remembered he said 9 gigs. I doubt hes lying, but wtf do I know.
Post by: {Sephiroth} on September 09, 2005, 12:55:00 PM
Post by: twistedsymphony on September 09, 2005, 01:12:00 PM
What I found most interesting was this:
QUOTE
-In a double-layer DVD for Xbox 360, 7GB is usable by a game. The transfer rate of the DVD drive is 15MB/sec max, 10-12MB/sec average. The seek time is 115ms, switching layers takes 75ms. Loading 512MB data takes 34 seconds.
-2GB in the HDD is used for a temporary cache area for games. Its average transfer rate is 17MB/sec and the average seek time is 13ms.
-2GB in the HDD is used for a temporary cache area for games. Its average transfer rate is 17MB/sec and the average seek time is 13ms.
Once you get past the seek time the DVD drive is capable transferring almost as fast as the HDD... though "on average" it's 1/3 slower... so if it takes 15 seconds without the HDD it will take 10 seconds with it...
Not to mention this is the same "speed increase" most found with the ATA100/133 cable upgrade so those that didn't notice a difference have nothing to worry about when playing without a hard drive :lol:
Post by: Avenger 2.0 on September 09, 2005, 01:59:00 PM
Don't forget that PC games will have to fit on DVD's too for the next years.
Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 09, 2005, 02:07:00 PM
QUOTE(Avenger 2.0 @ Sep 9 2005, 03:34 PM)
Don't forget that PC games will have to fit on DVD's too for the next years.
:rotfl: Yeah, since they just started using them. I was so fucking sick of 6 CD games. :lol:
The reason why the space bothers me is very simple. The system isnt even out yet and games are about to burst off the 9GB disc. In a few years that could be bad. Here is an example. First Generation PS2 were mostly on CD (650MB) and the ones that were on DVD were only about 1GB. Well, now PS2 games are starting to be dual layer.......it went from games fitting on one CD to games just fitting on a 4.7GB DVD to games on Dual-layer 9GB DVD's. I really don't want multi disc xbox 360 games. Since I want next generation to have more games with free roaming enviroments or very large scale enviroments, I dont want to have to change the disc to get from point A to point B.
Post by: {Sephiroth} on September 09, 2005, 03:31:00 PM
To be completely honest I believe the only games this will effect is huge RPG's like Elder Scrolls 4 (but not Elder Scrolls 4 itself). This shouldn't affect first person shoters or any other genre. And really its perfectly acceptable. But just 7 gb worries me
This post has been edited by {Sephiroth}: Sep 9 2005, 10:31 PM
Post by: {Sephiroth} on September 09, 2005, 03:45:00 PM
I hope that this article is incorrect and it's just the Japanese trying to cripple MS by saying their next gen system cant handle anything released 2007+ (which is basicaly what a 7gb limit would do, unless some people come up with some amazing compression techniques for both audio and textures)
Post by: {Sephiroth} on September 09, 2005, 04:15:00 PM
Post by: Mojiba on September 09, 2005, 06:19:00 PM
Post by: {Sephiroth} on September 10, 2005, 01:37:00 AM
I reckon they may be incorporating that into the 360 for future use. Hmm I was always suspicious how Elder Scrolls 4 fit onto the 360 DVD discs...
Post by: aepuppetmaster on September 10, 2005, 01:55:00 AM
Post by: Infamous_One on September 10, 2005, 04:30:00 AM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Sep 9 2005, 08:47 PM)
who knows... though it was translated from a 3rd party japanese source :lol:
What I found most interesting was this:
Once you get past the seek time the DVD drive is capable transferring almost as fast as the HDD... though "on average" it's 1/3 slower... so if it takes 15 seconds without the HDD it will take 10 seconds with it...
Not to mention this is the same "speed increase" most found with the ATA100/133 cable upgrade so those that didn't notice a difference have nothing to worry about when playing without a hard drive :lol:
What I found most interesting was this:
Once you get past the seek time the DVD drive is capable transferring almost as fast as the HDD... though "on average" it's 1/3 slower... so if it takes 15 seconds without the HDD it will take 10 seconds with it...
Not to mention this is the same "speed increase" most found with the ATA100/133 cable upgrade so those that didn't notice a difference have nothing to worry about when playing without a hard drive :lol:
FUCK! , so i dont really get a 20GB for me just 18GB and HD's not always brings 20GB just around 19GB , so that would make around 17.5GB for me , they better offer me exactly 20GB damn it!!. :grr:
Post by: krazyshane on September 10, 2005, 10:03:00 AM
QUOTE(Infamous_One @ Sep 10 2005, 12:05 PM)
FUCK! , so i dont really get a 20GB for me just 18GB and HD's not always brings 20GB just around 19GB , so that would make around 17.5GB for me , they better offer me exactly 20GB damn it!!. :grr:
I really hate you. Everything you seem to say is bitch bitch bitch. I dunno... i HOPE you're joking with this post... (and haha btw [/sarcasm]) but seriously, you are a big negative nancy and I'm glad that I dont have to spend any time with you away from this board.
Shane
Post by: Deftech on September 10, 2005, 10:06:00 AM
either add him to Ignore or get used to his ways.
Ive done both, and in that order. I removed him though as he pays me $10 monthly to keep him off Ignore :beer:
:rotfl:
Im kidding by the way, about the $$ :huh:
Post by: m_hael on September 10, 2005, 10:41:00 AM
2. The DVD/HD read speads are comparable and thus interchangeable when it comes to design
3. DVD9 is de facto 9Gb... ALL games have a section of data on the disk that is NOT part of the game. MS games are no exception.
4. 7GB is plenty, heck my last two games fitted into 1.4Gb and they were pretty big.
Post by: twicked on September 10, 2005, 11:31:00 AM
MS has been pushing Windows Media 9 into non-PC applications with an eye towards playing a larger role in the consumer electronics arena.
For example, researchers at the Optoelectronics and Systems Laboratories (OES) of the Industrial Technology Research Institute in Taiwan announced in April an optical disc format called FVD (Forward Versatile Disc), which was developed as a low-cost disc format for high-definition video.
The first version of the new format, called FVD-1, can hold 5.4GB of data on a single-sided, single-layer disc and 9.8GB on a single-sided dual-layer disc. A second version of the format, FVD-2, will offer more capacity. A single-sided single-layer FVD-2 disc can hold 6GB and a single-sided, dual-layer disc can hold 11GB of data.
By comparison, standard DVDs hold around 4.7GB of data and the EVD (Enhanced Versatile Disc) format, developed by researchers in China, can hold around 9GB of data.
Unlike the DVD and EVD formats, FVD supports Windows Media Video 9 and Windows Media Audio 9 Professional. Using Windows Media Video 9, FVD-1 discs can hold up to 135 minutes of high-definition video, enough to encode most feature-length movies on a single disc, according to OES.
The first FVD players will hit the market during the second half this year.
Even so, FVD-2 with 11 Gbs, thats shit. In comparison with Sony & Toshiba's DVD war anyway.
But, Samsung and MS have paired up ALSO, and samsung/toshiba are the same, arent they? Which would mean maybe MS will take the HD-DVD and give it FVD and maybe ....360 add on?? Multi-Disk games are the only other option.
fuck.
-t
Post by: twicked on September 10, 2005, 11:36:00 AM
QUOTE(twicked @ Sep 10 2005, 01:06 PM)
Windows Media Video 9, FVD-1 discs can hold up to 135 minutes of high-definition video, enough to encode most feature-length movies on a single disc
I find that statement hilarious. During the effort to cut piracy, MS releases a new DVD that hold more than enough to copy any featurelength movie DVDs and most uncompressed feature lenth AVI's. ahahahaha. oh well.
Post by: Carlo210 on September 10, 2005, 11:43:00 AM
QUOTE(twicked @ Sep 10 2005, 07:06 PM)
Multi-Disk games are the only other option.
Or new compression technology and not using cgi cutscenes, which MS and devs has already talked about.
The main thing that kills space on discs are the CGI cutscenes, but MS and Devs have said that there is no need for cgi since they can now make cutscenes in realtime using the games engine (look at Gears of War, Dark Sector, Prey, Oblivion, Kameo, Amped 3, etc).
Some games will still have cutscenes, like Japanese RPG's and games which are on platforms which require cgi cutscenes (current gen consoles), so those minority of games will just get closer to the maximum space on the disc. Some Japanese Rpg's will exceed the max space on a dvd, not necesarily because of the size of the game, but because of the hd cutscenes. They will have 2 discs to run from, which many rpg gamers are used to (Ie. Insert cutscene disc).
Post by: m_hael on September 10, 2005, 12:31:00 PM
QUOTE(Carlo210 @ Sep 10 2005, 11:18 AM)
Or new compression technology and not using cgi cutscenes, which MS and devs has already talked about.
The main thing that kills space on discs are the CGI cutscenes, but MS and Devs have said that there is no need for cgi since they can now make cutscenes in realtime using the games engine (look at Gears of War, Dark Sector, Prey, Oblivion, Kameo, Amped 3, etc).
Some games will still have cutscenes, like Japanese RPG's and games which are on platforms which require cgi cutscenes (current gen consoles), so those minority of games will just get closer to the maximum space on the disc. Some Japanese Rpg's will exceed the max space on a dvd, not necesarily because of the size of the game, but because of the hd cutscenes. They will have 2 discs to run from, which many rpg gamers are used to (Ie. Insert cutscene disc).
The main thing that kills space on discs are the CGI cutscenes, but MS and Devs have said that there is no need for cgi since they can now make cutscenes in realtime using the games engine (look at Gears of War, Dark Sector, Prey, Oblivion, Kameo, Amped 3, etc).
Some games will still have cutscenes, like Japanese RPG's and games which are on platforms which require cgi cutscenes (current gen consoles), so those minority of games will just get closer to the maximum space on the disc. Some Japanese Rpg's will exceed the max space on a dvd, not necesarily because of the size of the game, but because of the hd cutscenes. They will have 2 discs to run from, which many rpg gamers are used to (Ie. Insert cutscene disc).
AKA - "insert pain in the ass disk"
Post by: {Sephiroth} on September 10, 2005, 04:04:00 PM
This post has been edited by {Sephiroth}: Sep 10 2005, 11:04 PM
Post by: XBox_Rocker on September 10, 2005, 05:11:00 PM
Post by: twicked on September 10, 2005, 09:40:00 PM
Anyhow, either way I think they may try to throw some Samsung FVD DVD players into the 360. I Assume they will read all other media aswell.
but maybe not, who knows?
Post by: m_hael on September 10, 2005, 09:44:00 PM
Post by: twicked on September 10, 2005, 09:46:00 PM
Anyhow, keep up the thinkin.
Post by: {Sephiroth} on September 11, 2005, 02:25:00 AM
As it happens though I don't think the slight modification to the hardware would cost much or take much time. This may well be included in the 360 for holding gam data, just for that extra little bit developers may require.
Can't they just make 8 layered DVD's??
Post by: m_hael on September 11, 2005, 09:44:00 AM
Post by: {Sephiroth} on September 11, 2005, 09:56:00 AM