Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 08:17:00 AM
So many questions, so little PR guys at M$.
Post by: incognegro on September 02, 2005, 08:23:00 AM
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 08:27:00 AM
QUOTE(incognegro @ Sep 2 2005, 03:34 PM)
m_chael?
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: twistedsymphony on September 02, 2005, 08:55:00 AM
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it doesn't say that the PS3 will have better physics... simply that the software emulation of the PhysX hardware doesn't work well with the 360's ARCHITECTURE. It's not talking about POWER but they way the hardware in the system is arranged.
Most likely it works better on the CELL because the CELL more closely resembles the single core setup that devs are use to.
The article is pretty vague interms of factual information.
http://www.1up.com/d...ory?cId=3143371
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 09:27:00 AM
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Does PS3 have a PPU?
I'm confused.
PS3 Physics.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 09:30:00 AM
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Post by: twistedsymphony on September 02, 2005, 08:55:00 AM
Most likely it works better on the CELL because the CELL more closely resembles the single core setup that devs are use to.
The article is pretty vague interms of factual information.
http://www.1up.com/d...ory?cId=3143371
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 09:27:00 AM
I'm confused.
PS3 Physics.
Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 09:30:00 AM
QUOTE(Ozy @ Sep 2 2005, 11:38 AM)
Does PS3 have a PPU?
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 09:32:00 AM
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Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 09:32:00 AM
QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Sep 2 2005, 04:41 PM)
No, but from what I understand the Cell can emulate one on some levels.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 09:33:00 AM
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The consoles.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 09:37:00 AM
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Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 09:33:00 AM
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 09:37:00 AM
QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Sep 2 2005, 04:44 PM)
The consoles.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 09:45:00 AM
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Thats because what you said was true. I know why America says things different, it was our big middle finger to England.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: hugoboss1 on September 02, 2005, 09:48:00 AM
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Dam the ps3 boys sound worried..and sure talk alot of crap...all this talk and only time will tell im confident the 360 comes thru..
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 10:01:00 AM
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Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 09:45:00 AM
QUOTE(Ozy @ Sep 2 2005, 11:48 AM)
I see you took your 'chill pill' then. You have not being as pissy recently. Even when I insult the American version of the English language you didn't attack me with a pitch fork.
Thats because what you said was true. I know why America says things different, it was our big middle finger to England.
QUOTE
I'm impressed. Did you get professional help? You know shoot a few pigeons in the morning to vent your anger for that day? 
Post by: hugoboss1 on September 02, 2005, 09:48:00 AM
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 10:01:00 AM
QUOTE(hugoboss1 @ Sep 2 2005, 04:59 PM)
Dam the ps3 boys sound worried..and sure talk alot of crap...all this talk and only time will tell im confident the 360 comes thru..
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 10:12:00 AM
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Ozzy, no offense but you need to vanish for another 6 months.
come back when the 360 has established itself a little, and by then youll know what the ps3 is doing.
all this "ps3 is better in this way.." is unfounded.
again, no offense, but youd get less ulcers if you waited a while longer
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: KAGE360 on September 02, 2005, 10:21:00 AM
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it wont matter in the end because there are so many options now for physics software. i cant check now but at teamxbox.com didnt AGEI (spelling?) make an announcement that would further their physics software?? then there is the havoc engine as well. also i thought in this same thread someone snubbed this rumor out by a contact from physx?? either way with some tweaks im sure it wouldnt me an issue.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 11:35:00 AM
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Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 10:12:00 AM
come back when the 360 has established itself a little, and by then youll know what the ps3 is doing.
all this "ps3 is better in this way.." is unfounded.
again, no offense, but youd get less ulcers if you waited a while longer
Post by: KAGE360 on September 02, 2005, 10:21:00 AM
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 11:35:00 AM
QUOTE(Deftech @ Sep 2 2005, 05:23 PM)
Ozzy, no offense but you need to vanish for another 6 months.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: m_hael on September 02, 2005, 11:52:00 AM
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Physics at its core level resolves down to a Matrix Solver; just math taken to a NxN matrix level. What the article refers to is that THEY have EMULATION of Physx working better on CELL than on X360.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE X360 PERFORMANCE CANNOT BE IMPROVED UPON OR THAT PS3 IS BETTER THAN X360. SOFTWARE IS SOFT, MALEABLE... CHANGEABLE.
another comment taken out of context and given new meaning, then taken as gospel ...
next you'll be telling me some guy came back from the dead and can make beer out of water.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 11:58:00 AM
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wouldn't that be wine and not beer
Thanks for posting, maybe Ozy will calm down now, I thought I helped with my response, but I am sure he would rather hear it from you
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: KAGE360 on September 02, 2005, 12:05:00 PM
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 12:14:00 PM
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Post by: m_hael on September 02, 2005, 11:52:00 AM
THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE X360 PERFORMANCE CANNOT BE IMPROVED UPON OR THAT PS3 IS BETTER THAN X360. SOFTWARE IS SOFT, MALEABLE... CHANGEABLE.
another comment taken out of context and given new meaning, then taken as gospel ...
next you'll be telling me some guy came back from the dead and can make beer out of water.
Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 11:58:00 AM
QUOTE(m_hael @ Sep 2 2005, 02:03 PM)
next you'll be telling me some guy came back from the dead and can make beer out of water.
wouldn't that be wine and not beer
Thanks for posting, maybe Ozy will calm down now, I thought I helped with my response, but I am sure he would rather hear it from you
Post by: KAGE360 on September 02, 2005, 12:05:00 PM
Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 12:14:00 PM
QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Sep 2 2005, 02:09 PM)
wouldn't that be wine and not beer
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 12:29:00 PM
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You live in Ohio Deftech? Holy shit...........How close are you to Worthington(a suburb of Columbus)?
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 12:39:00 PM
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Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 12:29:00 PM
Post by: Ozy on September 02, 2005, 12:39:00 PM
QUOTE
THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE X360 PERFORMANCE CANNOT BE IMPROVED UPON OR THAT PS3 IS BETTER THAN X360. SOFTWARE IS SOFT, MALEABLE... CHANGEABLE.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: KAGE360 on September 02, 2005, 02:01:00 PM
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Post by: KAGE360 on September 02, 2005, 02:01:00 PM
QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Sep 2 2005, 02:40 PM)
You live in Ohio Deftech? Holy shit...........How close are you to Worthington(a suburb of Columbus)?
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 02:10:00 PM
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lol look at kages reply
hahahaha
I think you scare him deftones
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 02:37:00 PM
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Carlo210 on September 02, 2005, 02:54:00 PM
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: KAGE360 on September 02, 2005, 02:59:00 PM
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Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 02:10:00 PM
lol look at kages reply
hahahaha
I think you scare him deftones
Post by: deftonesmx17 on September 02, 2005, 02:37:00 PM
Post by: Carlo210 on September 02, 2005, 02:54:00 PM
Post by: KAGE360 on September 02, 2005, 02:59:00 PM
QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Sep 2 2005, 04:48 PM)
Small world huh Deftech?
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 03:23:00 PM
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I want a nice christmas gift fuggers
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Carlo210 on September 02, 2005, 03:32:00 PM
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I'll get you a folgers mug.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 05:35:00 PM
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: miggidy on September 02, 2005, 06:03:00 PM
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http://www.beyond3d....ead.php?t=23199
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 06:14:00 PM
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Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 03:23:00 PM
I want a nice christmas gift fuggers
Post by: Carlo210 on September 02, 2005, 03:32:00 PM
I'll get you a folgers mug.
Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 05:35:00 PM
Post by: miggidy on September 02, 2005, 06:03:00 PM
Post by: Deftech on September 02, 2005, 06:14:00 PM
QUOTE(miggidy @ Sep 2 2005, 08:14 PM)
http://www.beyond3d....ead.php?t=23199
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Carlo210 on September 02, 2005, 06:16:00 PM
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Thanks miggidy.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: aepuppetmaster on September 02, 2005, 09:54:00 PM
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its gunna be a tuff choice, 4x anitlasing on the xbox360, or better physics on the ps3.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Moleman on September 02, 2005, 10:27:00 PM
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Post by: Carlo210 on September 02, 2005, 06:16:00 PM
QUOTE
The summary of the information below is that AGEIA would like to go on record that we do not have data to support performance comparisons for the PS3 or Xbox360 that would impact any of our physics features. Specifically, statements that the Xbox360 cannot run fluid simulations are not correct. In addition, conclusions about relative performance should not have been stated or implied in our presentations.
Our recent presentations created confusion and debate. Please allow us to clarify the statements we made and correct inferences in things we did not say.
Tom Lassanske is one of the lead AGEIA technical people working with developers. The presentation that caused this issue was given at several conferences, including MS GameFest. The presentation at GDC Europe was presented by one of the European staff, not Tom.
The summary of the section of the presentation is below.
The middle section of the 58-slide presentation is all about how platforms with different processor configurations can map to physics simulation, ranging from single core PC to platforms with more processors. A developer requires at minimum game-play physics, but must anticipate that different hardware will have different levels of capability for more advanced simulation. Physics has a different characteristic for level of detail in that the game must handle a wide range of capabilities directly. There is no intrinsic knob that can be turned to reduce the level of detail such as screen resolution in graphics.
The presentation uses implied assumptions on the relative power of the platforms from single core, dual core, console and PC-with-PhysX platforms, based on publicly-available information. The only platforms for which there is actual comparison data at AGEIA are the single core PC, dual core PC and PhysX platforms. There is no current data on the PS3 or Xbox360 on relative performance. The implied difference in performance was from assumptions about the number of compute elements and memory architectures, and how well these might fit to various simulation algorithms as enabled by typical game developers. The difficulty in predicting performance across platforms is that physics is inside a game loop where many other game-related processing is taking place. Again, we dont have a simple metric like fill-rate that is greatly dependent on the capabilities of the graphics chip and less dependent on what is going on in the game.
The statement has been made that there is a problem with fluid simulations on the Xbox360. There is no data to support this statement nor was this meant to be implied. The Xbox360 obviously has a great deal of compute power and the PowerPC processor is a very capable processor for physics simulation. Our SDK already runs on the Xbox360 and that SDK includes fluid simulation. This is the same SDK that operates on the single core PC and dual core PC. Again, we have not experienced any problems operating any type of simulation on any platform.
The goal of a cross platform SDK is to expose the same features so we enable developers to target that same level of physics features, although, as I stated earlier, the physics effect might have to be scaled across different platforms. Our sources of game titles for our PhysX product are the console and PC title developers that need the highest performance out of their chosen platform. We will do our utmost to get the highest performance from any platform or a competitor will do it instead.
The last point is to correct a factual error in the last paragraph of the ExtremeTech article. The physics computations of the boulder demonstration were running in software in the first case (typically between 4-6 fps on high-end PC processors), consuming almost all of the CPU cycles; and on the PhysX processor in the second case (typically between 40-50 fps), consuming around 20% of one processor (mostly for graphics, with some small overhead for PhysX synchronization). In the past we have hesitated to quote these numbers because of the difficulties in interpreting their meaning. In the case with the PhysX processor on our boulder demonstration, the CPU is doing very little work and thus has idle cycles that could be used for other purposes (making the game more fun), so the differences in frame rate are not meaningful. A more meaningful comparison is one where the software-only demonstration gives the physics a fraction (10%) of the CPU time, as is typical in all games, compared with a PhysX processor example where the same game is running and the PhysX processor offloads the physics calculations. The same comparison can be made between a software-only demonstration on a dual core PC with the appropriate loading and a PhysX plus dual core system. In both comparisons, you would see a much greater difference in capability.
Our recent presentations created confusion and debate. Please allow us to clarify the statements we made and correct inferences in things we did not say.
Tom Lassanske is one of the lead AGEIA technical people working with developers. The presentation that caused this issue was given at several conferences, including MS GameFest. The presentation at GDC Europe was presented by one of the European staff, not Tom.
The summary of the section of the presentation is below.
The middle section of the 58-slide presentation is all about how platforms with different processor configurations can map to physics simulation, ranging from single core PC to platforms with more processors. A developer requires at minimum game-play physics, but must anticipate that different hardware will have different levels of capability for more advanced simulation. Physics has a different characteristic for level of detail in that the game must handle a wide range of capabilities directly. There is no intrinsic knob that can be turned to reduce the level of detail such as screen resolution in graphics.
The presentation uses implied assumptions on the relative power of the platforms from single core, dual core, console and PC-with-PhysX platforms, based on publicly-available information. The only platforms for which there is actual comparison data at AGEIA are the single core PC, dual core PC and PhysX platforms. There is no current data on the PS3 or Xbox360 on relative performance. The implied difference in performance was from assumptions about the number of compute elements and memory architectures, and how well these might fit to various simulation algorithms as enabled by typical game developers. The difficulty in predicting performance across platforms is that physics is inside a game loop where many other game-related processing is taking place. Again, we dont have a simple metric like fill-rate that is greatly dependent on the capabilities of the graphics chip and less dependent on what is going on in the game.
The statement has been made that there is a problem with fluid simulations on the Xbox360. There is no data to support this statement nor was this meant to be implied. The Xbox360 obviously has a great deal of compute power and the PowerPC processor is a very capable processor for physics simulation. Our SDK already runs on the Xbox360 and that SDK includes fluid simulation. This is the same SDK that operates on the single core PC and dual core PC. Again, we have not experienced any problems operating any type of simulation on any platform.
The goal of a cross platform SDK is to expose the same features so we enable developers to target that same level of physics features, although, as I stated earlier, the physics effect might have to be scaled across different platforms. Our sources of game titles for our PhysX product are the console and PC title developers that need the highest performance out of their chosen platform. We will do our utmost to get the highest performance from any platform or a competitor will do it instead.
The last point is to correct a factual error in the last paragraph of the ExtremeTech article. The physics computations of the boulder demonstration were running in software in the first case (typically between 4-6 fps on high-end PC processors), consuming almost all of the CPU cycles; and on the PhysX processor in the second case (typically between 40-50 fps), consuming around 20% of one processor (mostly for graphics, with some small overhead for PhysX synchronization). In the past we have hesitated to quote these numbers because of the difficulties in interpreting their meaning. In the case with the PhysX processor on our boulder demonstration, the CPU is doing very little work and thus has idle cycles that could be used for other purposes (making the game more fun), so the differences in frame rate are not meaningful. A more meaningful comparison is one where the software-only demonstration gives the physics a fraction (10%) of the CPU time, as is typical in all games, compared with a PhysX processor example where the same game is running and the PhysX processor offloads the physics calculations. The same comparison can be made between a software-only demonstration on a dual core PC with the appropriate loading and a PhysX plus dual core system. In both comparisons, you would see a much greater difference in capability.
Post by: aepuppetmaster on September 02, 2005, 09:54:00 PM
Post by: Moleman on September 02, 2005, 10:27:00 PM
QUOTE(aepuppetmaster @ Sep 3 2005, 12:05 AM)
its gunna be a tuff choice, 4x anitlasing on the xbox360, or better physics on the ps3.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: incognegro on September 03, 2005, 06:51:00 AM
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We really do need a pimp slap emoticon.....
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Deftech on September 03, 2005, 07:34:00 AM
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lol
I cannot believe after all that was posted in this thread concerning the 360 and Physx, that he didnt read it and posted that.
Yes bro, a HUGE slap is needed.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Master X on September 03, 2005, 02:21:00 PM
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Post by: incognegro on September 03, 2005, 06:51:00 AM
QUOTE
its gunna be a tuff choice, 4x anitlasing on the xbox360, or better physics on the ps3.
We really do need a pimp slap emoticon.....
Post by: Deftech on September 03, 2005, 07:34:00 AM
I cannot believe after all that was posted in this thread concerning the 360 and Physx, that he didnt read it and posted that.
Yes bro, a HUGE slap is needed.
Post by: Master X on September 03, 2005, 02:21:00 PM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Sep 2 2005, 01:06 PM)
it doesn't say that the PS3 will have better physics... simply that the software emulation of the PhysX hardware doesn't work well with the 360's ARCHITECTURE. It's not talking about POWER but they way the hardware in the system is arranged.
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: KAGE360 on September 03, 2005, 04:58:00 PM
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this discussion should have ended when either twisted or M_hael posted the facts on the subject.
its stupid to compare anything between the ps3 and the 360 as they are on total ends of the spectrum. if it isnt programmed specifically for said console then you wont get real world performance. simple as that
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: aepuppetmaster on September 05, 2005, 10:37:00 PM
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<lowers head in shame> from now on im reading every post b4 i reply
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Title: Well Xbox Won't Have As Good As Physics As The Ps3
Post by: Ozy on September 06, 2005, 09:52:00 AM
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Can someone close this now?
Post by: KAGE360 on September 03, 2005, 04:58:00 PM
its stupid to compare anything between the ps3 and the 360 as they are on total ends of the spectrum. if it isnt programmed specifically for said console then you wont get real world performance. simple as that
Post by: aepuppetmaster on September 05, 2005, 10:37:00 PM
Post by: Ozy on September 06, 2005, 09:52:00 AM