Post by: Foe-hammer on July 30, 2005, 02:41:00 AM
Any ideas?
Post by: Foe-hammer on July 30, 2005, 03:06:00 AM
Post by: Moleman on July 30, 2005, 05:57:00 PM
Post by: Foe-hammer on July 30, 2005, 06:13:00 PM
QUOTE(Moleman @ Jul 31 2005, 02:08 AM)
The ATI GPU is capable of sending a digital signal. In fact it is all it can send out. The analog only limitation comes from the video encoder chip designed by the web-tv team. So, in the future another version of 360 could support digital out.
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: aetius on August 01, 2005, 06:57:00 PM
-
Actually, MS has a reason for analog only out, it's just a dubious one. The TV encoder chip they're using will be taking whatever video comes from the game and scaling it to whatever resolution your TV supports. So lazy developers only have to code for 720p and the xbox will scale to 1080i for them.
If they outputted the signal digitally, whatever comes out of the GPU would go straight out. In this case, a lazy developer would program only for 720p and when this gets sent to a 1080i-only TV(there are a few), they get a blank screen.
As said above, this situation does not preclude a future digital output, but for the lowest common consumer, this will be an easier hookup that requires them to think less.
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: m_hael on August 02, 2005, 08:32:00 AM
-
Post by: aetius on August 01, 2005, 06:57:00 PM
If they outputted the signal digitally, whatever comes out of the GPU would go straight out. In this case, a lazy developer would program only for 720p and when this gets sent to a 1080i-only TV(there are a few), they get a blank screen.
As said above, this situation does not preclude a future digital output, but for the lowest common consumer, this will be an easier hookup that requires them to think less.
Post by: m_hael on August 02, 2005, 08:32:00 AM
QUOTE(aetius @ Aug 1 2005, 07:08 PM)
Actually, MS has a reason for analog only out, it's just a dubious one. The TV encoder chip they're using will be taking whatever video comes from the game and scaling it to whatever resolution your TV supports. So lazy developers only have to code for 720p and the xbox will scale to 1080i for them.
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: aetius on August 02, 2005, 08:50:00 AM
-
Sorry, if the term "lazy developers" offended you, that was not my intent. I meant that developers can also choose to program for 1080i in addition to 720p. They are only required to to do 720p. That is the "lowest common denominator" for the 360. This choice by MS seems to be made so that in the event that they don't program for 1080i, those with TVs that only do 1080i do not have to tell the xbox, it will change for them.
Also, I take great offense at being called an "ill-informed user." I was not wrong in what I said; I just chose not to expound upon my whole reasoning so as not to bore other readers. Most of your post seems to be a rehash of what I said. Please do not waste our time further.
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: m_hael on August 02, 2005, 09:28:00 AM
-
Post by: aetius on August 02, 2005, 08:50:00 AM
Also, I take great offense at being called an "ill-informed user." I was not wrong in what I said; I just chose not to expound upon my whole reasoning so as not to bore other readers. Most of your post seems to be a rehash of what I said. Please do not waste our time further.
Post by: m_hael on August 02, 2005, 09:28:00 AM
QUOTE(aetius @ Aug 2 2005, 09:01 AM)
Sorry, if the term "lazy developers" offended you, that was not my intent. I meant that developers can also choose to program for 1080i in addition to 720p. They are only required to to do 720p. That is the "lowest common denominator" for the 360. This choice by MS seems to be made so that in the event that they don't program for 1080i, those with TVs that only do 1080i do not have to tell the xbox, it will change for them.
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 02, 2005, 09:30:00 AM
-
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 02, 2005, 09:30:00 AM
QUOTE(aetius @ Aug 2 2005, 11:01 AM)
Sorry, if the term "lazy developers" offended you, that was not my intent. I meant that developers can also choose to program for 1080i in addition to 720p. They are only required to to do 720p. That is the "lowest common denominator" for the 360. This choice by MS seems to be made so that in the event that they don't program for 1080i, those with TVs that only do 1080i do not have to tell the xbox, it will change for them.
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: KAGE360 on August 02, 2005, 12:42:00 PM
-
i love how you can tell the people who know what they are talking about (twisted, m_hael, deftech, etc.) vs. the people who know next to nothing before openging their mouth (not naming any names
) they are great for comic relief though.
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: aetius on August 02, 2005, 12:43:00 PM
-
I apologize for pissing you two off. I didn't mean to do so. In my last statement, I meant to retract my referring to developers as lazy. I am a programmer and engineer and I spoke out of turn in calling them lazy. I myself have often left out little things because I was tired of working on the same problems over and over again. Again, I apologize.
Also, where in the Spain event did it mention HDMI? I must have missed that but if it is true, then great! I personally cannot see a difference between components and HDMI because of really bad eyes, but I would always be appreciative of a digital connection over analog.
m_hael, again sorry, but just so you know, the resolution for 1080i is actually 1920x540p. In MOST TV's there is not a doubling of the horizontal resolution. Some broadcasts are done in 1280x540p and then the vertical resolution is doubled for interlacing but this is done to save bandwidth rather than laziness.
Peace (please?)
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: Moleman on August 02, 2005, 02:14:00 PM
-
The analog only might not be such a bad idea after all for scalability. Look at it this way.
The Analog Analogy
Let's say you want to enlarge a picture of Bill Gates. You have two cameras that have taken an identical picture. One is 35mm, the other is an 3 megapixel digital camera. If you enlarge the size with the 35mm negative, lets say 10 times larger, you can reproduce the image at a higher resolution/size with very little quality loss, and that stud looks as dapper as ever. Now you take the picture from the 3 megapixel camera, throw it into good old MS paint, and resize the image 10 times larger. Wow, that looks ugly. You could of used a higher resolution camera to get a good quality image, but then you'd need a better camera. So for ease of rescaling and maximum compatibility, analog is the way to go in the X360.
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: Carlo210 on August 02, 2005, 02:37:00 PM
-
Yup. also, the scaling chip in the xbox360 makes this a great combo for, well, anyone with any tv.
PS3 developers have to make the actual game in 480i (scale it themselves) if they want people to play in a 480i mode. This is because the PS3 lacks any sort of scaling chip.
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: aetius on August 02, 2005, 03:58:00 PM
-
Is it just me, or does it seem more and more that programming for the PS3 will be crazy difficult?
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: Bogus8 on August 02, 2005, 06:50:00 PM
-
That 35mm comparison is not at all acurate btw... 35mm film has has MUCH greater resolution than anything else really... where as analog tv signal has a more defined much smaller resolution and wouldn't scale NEARLY as well...
I'm not debating the 720p vs 1080i issue as I'm very uniformed about all that... just stating about the film (I work in film and digital mediums in my production company)
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 02, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
-
Post by: KAGE360 on August 02, 2005, 12:42:00 PM
) they are great for comic relief though. Post by: aetius on August 02, 2005, 12:43:00 PM
Also, where in the Spain event did it mention HDMI? I must have missed that but if it is true, then great! I personally cannot see a difference between components and HDMI because of really bad eyes, but I would always be appreciative of a digital connection over analog.
m_hael, again sorry, but just so you know, the resolution for 1080i is actually 1920x540p. In MOST TV's there is not a doubling of the horizontal resolution. Some broadcasts are done in 1280x540p and then the vertical resolution is doubled for interlacing but this is done to save bandwidth rather than laziness.
Peace (please?)
Post by: Moleman on August 02, 2005, 02:14:00 PM
The Analog Analogy
Let's say you want to enlarge a picture of Bill Gates. You have two cameras that have taken an identical picture. One is 35mm, the other is an 3 megapixel digital camera. If you enlarge the size with the 35mm negative, lets say 10 times larger, you can reproduce the image at a higher resolution/size with very little quality loss, and that stud looks as dapper as ever. Now you take the picture from the 3 megapixel camera, throw it into good old MS paint, and resize the image 10 times larger. Wow, that looks ugly. You could of used a higher resolution camera to get a good quality image, but then you'd need a better camera. So for ease of rescaling and maximum compatibility, analog is the way to go in the X360.
Post by: Carlo210 on August 02, 2005, 02:37:00 PM
PS3 developers have to make the actual game in 480i (scale it themselves) if they want people to play in a 480i mode. This is because the PS3 lacks any sort of scaling chip.
Post by: aetius on August 02, 2005, 03:58:00 PM
Post by: Bogus8 on August 02, 2005, 06:50:00 PM
I'm not debating the 720p vs 1080i issue as I'm very uniformed about all that... just stating about the film (I work in film and digital mediums in my production company)
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 02, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
QUOTE(aetius @ Aug 2 2005, 02:54 PM)
I apologize for pissing you two off. I didn't mean to do so. In my last statement, I meant to retract my referring to developers as lazy. I am a programmer and engineer and I spoke out of turn in calling them lazy. I myself have often left out little things because I was tired of working on the same problems over and over again. Again, I apologize.
-
Title: 360's Ati Gpu Analog Only.
Post by: Bogus8 on August 03, 2005, 08:11:00 PM
-
I was speaking in realistic terms... I don't doubt digital can or has surpassed film... but in the mainstream consumer market.... NO... that's all I was saying.
Post by: Bogus8 on August 03, 2005, 08:11:00 PM