Post by: CattyKid on June 11, 2005, 12:59:00 PM
What are our thoights about playing PC games on the 360 that were developed with the XNA? I believe that this may be a "trick" that MS has up its sleeve. This would give it a GINORMOUS edge over the PS3 and the Revolution.
What do you guys think about this? I know us modders will try to make this happen, but what are the chances of MS supporting it?
Post by: Carlo210 on June 13, 2005, 05:15:00 AM
I don't see anyone playing original maps or characters anymore. Keeping up with the scene is easier on pcs because you can go anywhere to find maps and characters, but with xbox360, they all gotta be on the xbox live marketplace. What are the chances xbox 360 will be included in the custom mod scene?
Post by: HamSandwhich on June 13, 2005, 05:20:00 AM
Post by: Carlo210 on June 13, 2005, 05:26:00 AM
Post by: EricJD on June 13, 2005, 06:43:00 AM
Post by: twistedsymphony on June 13, 2005, 08:00:00 AM
Post by: incognegro on June 13, 2005, 09:04:00 AM
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 13, 2005, 10:22:00 AM
QUOTE(mirx999 @ Jun 13 2005, 12:26 PM)
Also, optimization could be a factor, since PC games typically haven't looked as good as their console equivalents
Could you please name some of those. I can't, but can name plenty that look MUCH better on PC.
Unreal Tournament on PS2 wasnt even near as good looking as the PC version and the PC version ran better with a PCI GFX card.........not even AGP.
All three Splinter Cell games look much better on PC.
Rainbow Six Raven Shield was much better on PC.
DOOM3 was much better on PC.
NFSU 1&2 were much better on PC.
Rallisport Challenge was much better on PC.
Race Driver 1&2 were much better on PC.
HALO was much better on PC.
PES/WE look better on PC
FIFA looks better on PC.
NASCAR looks better on PC.
F1 2002 looks way better on PC.
Medal of Honor games on PC are far better.
All the Grand Theft Auto's are better on PC.
I could go on and on, but you get my drift.
Post by: CattyKid on June 13, 2005, 10:35:00 AM
Maybe games that can be played with their PC counterparts but have simply been signed (only different in this respect).
Also, why use XBox Live? Why can't we connect to another server, just like a PC? Ig we want it and BEG for it, MS just may support it.
Post by: MrBones on June 13, 2005, 01:39:00 PM
QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Jun 13 2005, 12:33 PM)
HALO was much better on PC.
Halo may have looked better on PC, but played better? No way. I couldn't even make it through the first level because of the random lag.
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 13, 2005, 01:44:00 PM
QUOTE(MrBones @ Jun 13 2005, 03:50 PM)
Halo may have looked better on PC, but played better? No way. I couldn't even make it through the first level because of the random lag.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: twistedsymphony on June 14, 2005, 06:44:00 AM
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I think on a whole PC games have always looked better than their console counterparts when using the best hardware.
I think that will change in the next gen... at least for a while. The way the 360 is designed, even if PCs are able to use similar hardware the overall system architecture of the 360 is something that will probably never be available in a PC. They've taken advantage of certain liberties that only a unified system can offer.
Coupled with the fact that it's a static system and for the first time in the history of video games the console will release with hardware that is superior to what is available on the PC market... There will be a role reversal as to who is king of graphical prowess. Consoles will blow away PCs at launch and probably for a good deal of time after.
With both Sony and Ms pushing for the PC gamer (native USB, Hard Drives, Native VGA, Blue tooth, etc.) They're essentially trying to make a unified gaming solution. You can put this box under your HDTV and play with a controller or you can put it on your desk next to your LCD and play with a USB keyboard and mouse. If you can play cross platform against PC gamers and most good PC games are available then you'd be down right stupid to NOT want to play on a next gen console. It will have all the advantages of a traditional console as well as the most of the advantages of a PC. Low price, no installation, static system, no upgrading headaches, high resolution, superior graphics, lan party portable. whats not to like?
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: incognegro on June 14, 2005, 08:12:00 AM
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YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE KEYBOARD AND MOUSE ON 360............and lets hope not! Im sorry but PC gamers can keep that to themselves. To me that separates us as gamers and not every body can use that setup. I can't. I prefer a controller for convenience and health reasons.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: Morien on June 14, 2005, 09:18:00 AM
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You'll be able to use the kb and mouse if the developers program support for it. Allard or whoever said this around the time of e3.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 14, 2005, 09:18:00 AM
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Overall console system architecture has never available in a PC or we would have perfect emulation of systems.
Slow down my gaming buddy. The R520 is very close to hitting the market. Dual core CPU chips are already out for AMD and Intel. By the time that the PS3 comes out the computer will have surpassed both PS3 and Xbox 360 at the rate it is going. Why? Because AMD vs Intel and Nvidia vs ATI. Unlike the console where those companies make one chip and its done, on the PC side they are at each others throat for the benchmark crown. This is very good for the consumer because the fall of prices is ridiculous anymore and I love it. The only thing that makes a console better is they are all the same. The CPU/GPU in every xbox has the exact same program/gfx calls. The only reason I say all of this, reverts to a console being static. Hardcore PC gamers enjoy the upgrading and benchmarking. When was the last time someone benchmarked their console? Plus in the computer world, I can do whatever the hell I want to the inside and I will not be banned from playing games online. A PC gamer enjoys more freedom and creativity. MODS...................hardware and software.............what else can I say.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: twistedsymphony on June 14, 2005, 09:53:00 AM
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Post by: twistedsymphony on June 14, 2005, 06:44:00 AM
I think that will change in the next gen... at least for a while. The way the 360 is designed, even if PCs are able to use similar hardware the overall system architecture of the 360 is something that will probably never be available in a PC. They've taken advantage of certain liberties that only a unified system can offer.
Coupled with the fact that it's a static system and for the first time in the history of video games the console will release with hardware that is superior to what is available on the PC market... There will be a role reversal as to who is king of graphical prowess. Consoles will blow away PCs at launch and probably for a good deal of time after.
With both Sony and Ms pushing for the PC gamer (native USB, Hard Drives, Native VGA, Blue tooth, etc.) They're essentially trying to make a unified gaming solution. You can put this box under your HDTV and play with a controller or you can put it on your desk next to your LCD and play with a USB keyboard and mouse. If you can play cross platform against PC gamers and most good PC games are available then you'd be down right stupid to NOT want to play on a next gen console. It will have all the advantages of a traditional console as well as the most of the advantages of a PC. Low price, no installation, static system, no upgrading headaches, high resolution, superior graphics, lan party portable. whats not to like?
Post by: incognegro on June 14, 2005, 08:12:00 AM
Post by: Morien on June 14, 2005, 09:18:00 AM
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 14, 2005, 09:18:00 AM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Jun 14 2005, 08:55 AM)
I think that will change in the next gen... at least for a while. The way the 360 is designed, even if PCs are able to use similar hardware the overall system architecture of the 360 is something that will probably never be available in a PC. They've taken advantage of certain liberties that only a unified system can offer.
Overall console system architecture has never available in a PC or we would have perfect emulation of systems.
Slow down my gaming buddy. The R520 is very close to hitting the market. Dual core CPU chips are already out for AMD and Intel. By the time that the PS3 comes out the computer will have surpassed both PS3 and Xbox 360 at the rate it is going. Why? Because AMD vs Intel and Nvidia vs ATI. Unlike the console where those companies make one chip and its done, on the PC side they are at each others throat for the benchmark crown. This is very good for the consumer because the fall of prices is ridiculous anymore and I love it. The only thing that makes a console better is they are all the same. The CPU/GPU in every xbox has the exact same program/gfx calls. The only reason I say all of this, reverts to a console being static. Hardcore PC gamers enjoy the upgrading and benchmarking. When was the last time someone benchmarked their console? Plus in the computer world, I can do whatever the hell I want to the inside and I will not be banned from playing games online. A PC gamer enjoys more freedom and creativity. MODS...................hardware and software.............what else can I say.
Post by: twistedsymphony on June 14, 2005, 09:53:00 AM
QUOTE(incognito @ Jun 14 2005, 10:23 AM)
YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE KEYBOARD AND MOUSE ON 360............and lets hope not! Im sorry but PC gamers can keep that to themselves. To me that separates us as gamers and not every body can use that setup. I can't. I prefer a controller for convenience and health reasons.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 14, 2005, 10:19:00 AM
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Well this is the only thing that makes me say meh. M$ isnt going to hold ATI back on this one. All ATI has to do is make a new core with a huge fillrate and AA problem solved. Heck the x850 XT has a fillrate of 8.32Gpixels compared to a 9800XT that has 3.2Gpixels. My 9800XT allows HL2 @ 1024x768 with 6xAA and 16xAF @ an avg of 40fps. Besides we don't know what GDDR4 will be like
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: Carlo210 on June 14, 2005, 02:22:00 PM
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Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 14, 2005, 10:19:00 AM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Jun 14 2005, 12:04 PM)
and there are certain features of the 360's GPU (like the free 4xMSAA getup, etc.) that MS will keep ATi from using until well after the 360's launch (2 years is the rumor).
Well this is the only thing that makes me say meh. M$ isnt going to hold ATI back on this one. All ATI has to do is make a new core with a huge fillrate and AA problem solved. Heck the x850 XT has a fillrate of 8.32Gpixels compared to a 9800XT that has 3.2Gpixels. My 9800XT allows HL2 @ 1024x768 with 6xAA and 16xAF @ an avg of 40fps. Besides we don't know what GDDR4 will be like
Post by: Carlo210 on June 14, 2005, 02:22:00 PM
QUOTE(incognegro @ Jun 14 2005, 04:23 PM)
YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE KEYBOARD AND MOUSE ON 360............and lets hope not! Im sorry but PC gamers can keep that to themselves. To me that separates us as gamers and not every body can use that setup. I can't. I prefer a controller for convenience and health reasons.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: Carlo210 on June 14, 2005, 02:36:00 PM
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Well, Keyboard and mouse support are odd for devs to work with. Not the implementing the controls for, but the fact that shooting anything is alot quicker with a mouse.
Take Area 51 for example. The console version features enemies that take roughly 5 hits to kill with the pistol whereas the pc version takes more than 8. The devs said that thhy made the pc version harder because they had to even out the difficulty. If the pc version featured the same enemies, then it would be way too easy.
Now I understand that mouse users have no advantage since any of use could use a mouse, but not all of us have the proper setup as in a desk to put our mouse and kbd on, and upright position, nor any arm support.
I mean, I will be sitting in a tilt-back chair in my room. I can't see myself using a mouse and keyboard because 1. health reasons opsted in the previous post and 2. not practical in my situation.
It is clear (anyone should know this) that shooting with a mouse is much easier and quicker than shooting with an analog joystick.I won't be able to use a mouse and keyboard, so should I still expect to have fun in a game of halo where everyone around me, using mice and keyboards, are sniping me with their mice, pistol whipping me with their mice, and so forth?
Now don't say 'you muct suck with your controller' because that is not the case. The case is that shooting with a mouse requires a flick of the wrist. Basically, look at where you want to aim and your hand will controler the mouse and zip it there. Now, with a controller, presumably a joystick, you must quide the position of the joystick with certain sensitivity. The thing is, aiming with a joystick isn't as natural as guiding your arm and hand to a destination on screen. With a mouse, you move instantly to your destination. With a joystick, you scroll to your destination.
Its like this.
Remember those laptops with those little red balls on them as mice? Well, try playing a round of counterstrike with that (using your thumb of course). Now hook up your mouse and go a round with that. See the difference? All you do is point at what you want to shoot.
Sure people who are good with controllers can still go up against these mouse and keyboard gamers, but against people who know how to use a keyboard and a mouse combination (the people who would actually hook up a mouse and keyboard to their xbox360), joystick users stand no chance in the world of reflex.
With mice, strafing and aiming at another moving target is like nothing, put it requires more skill for a controller user. When using a controller, while strafing and aiming at another player you find yourself too busy rotating the joystick to aim a little higher at the same time because you will lose track and aim by doing so, just to get a headshot.
With a mouse, you see someone on screen, and Boom you hit them. With a controller, you see someone off screen, you scroll to where they are, if you overscroll you scroll back a little more, and them boom. But god forbid they move, because then your aiming wont stay locked on them, unlike with a mouse.
And honestly, where do you put a mouse, forget a keyboard, when you are sitting on a couch?
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: incognegro on June 15, 2005, 07:26:00 AM
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Seriously, if you want to use a keyboard and mouse setup play on your computer. I literally play NO pc games because I love my controller and i think thats why the console was made. To make gaming easier for the masses. PC gaming doesnt have to be simple thats why they kb+mouse setup is ideal for it. For consoles though kb+mouse is just not necessary and it creates more problems than it solves. complicates things.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: twistedsymphony on June 15, 2005, 07:34:00 AM
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I completely agree with the problems the come with keyboard and mouse support, I don't like to use them personally which is why I'm a console gamer...
But it doesn't change the fact that MS and Sony will both be providing Keyboard and Mouse support and that it will be a good selling point in bringing over PC gamers.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 15, 2005, 08:20:00 AM
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Post by: Carlo210 on June 14, 2005, 02:36:00 PM
Take Area 51 for example. The console version features enemies that take roughly 5 hits to kill with the pistol whereas the pc version takes more than 8. The devs said that thhy made the pc version harder because they had to even out the difficulty. If the pc version featured the same enemies, then it would be way too easy.
Now I understand that mouse users have no advantage since any of use could use a mouse, but not all of us have the proper setup as in a desk to put our mouse and kbd on, and upright position, nor any arm support.
I mean, I will be sitting in a tilt-back chair in my room. I can't see myself using a mouse and keyboard because 1. health reasons opsted in the previous post and 2. not practical in my situation.
It is clear (anyone should know this) that shooting with a mouse is much easier and quicker than shooting with an analog joystick.I won't be able to use a mouse and keyboard, so should I still expect to have fun in a game of halo where everyone around me, using mice and keyboards, are sniping me with their mice, pistol whipping me with their mice, and so forth?
Now don't say 'you muct suck with your controller' because that is not the case. The case is that shooting with a mouse requires a flick of the wrist. Basically, look at where you want to aim and your hand will controler the mouse and zip it there. Now, with a controller, presumably a joystick, you must quide the position of the joystick with certain sensitivity. The thing is, aiming with a joystick isn't as natural as guiding your arm and hand to a destination on screen. With a mouse, you move instantly to your destination. With a joystick, you scroll to your destination.
Its like this.
Remember those laptops with those little red balls on them as mice? Well, try playing a round of counterstrike with that (using your thumb of course). Now hook up your mouse and go a round with that. See the difference? All you do is point at what you want to shoot.
Sure people who are good with controllers can still go up against these mouse and keyboard gamers, but against people who know how to use a keyboard and a mouse combination (the people who would actually hook up a mouse and keyboard to their xbox360), joystick users stand no chance in the world of reflex.
With mice, strafing and aiming at another moving target is like nothing, put it requires more skill for a controller user. When using a controller, while strafing and aiming at another player you find yourself too busy rotating the joystick to aim a little higher at the same time because you will lose track and aim by doing so, just to get a headshot.
With a mouse, you see someone on screen, and Boom you hit them. With a controller, you see someone off screen, you scroll to where they are, if you overscroll you scroll back a little more, and them boom. But god forbid they move, because then your aiming wont stay locked on them, unlike with a mouse.
And honestly, where do you put a mouse, forget a keyboard, when you are sitting on a couch?
Post by: incognegro on June 15, 2005, 07:26:00 AM
Post by: twistedsymphony on June 15, 2005, 07:34:00 AM
But it doesn't change the fact that MS and Sony will both be providing Keyboard and Mouse support and that it will be a good selling point in bringing over PC gamers.
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 15, 2005, 08:20:00 AM
QUOTE(mirx999 @ Jun 14 2005, 01:19 PM)
But see, the problem is that not everybody can afford to spend 1000+ dollars upgrading their PC every year. What I really meant to say is that console games look a lot better when running on comparable hardware because they are optimized to squeeze every ounce of power out of it. What's the point of releasing a game if the hardware that makes it look better than a console game won't be affordable for another year?
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: scienide on June 15, 2005, 09:11:00 AM
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I dont think playing with a mouse gives you an advantage...
Its just... more people played with keyboard and mouse.. for hours and hours... so its more accustomed to use....
If you compare a great joystick player with a great mouse player.... it will be the same ....
Match the best mouse player against one of the Ogres or something like that...
IF u are used to the joystick > use it ... its just as fast ....
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: incognegro on June 15, 2005, 10:20:00 AM
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No its not.....not because it has PC characteristics doesnt make it a PC. I can surf the web with my phone, doesnt make it a pc. I can watch tv on my monitor and that doesnt make it a tv.
The xbox was built around pc technology but with a different purpose than pc's thus theyre is no comparison. Modding turned it into a watered down PC ( i must admit the only reason i modded mine was cause my pc sux and i dont have the cash to upgrade it so i use it as an extension of my pc) but that wasn't the purpose for it.
consoles use controllers
PC's use keyboard and mouse etc.
If you like sims and rts's and all that deep stuff fire up a PC
But if quick and simple fun with your friends or ppl who are just starting to play games then Consoles all the way
thats all there is to it.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: Carlo210 on June 15, 2005, 01:03:00 PM
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Post by: scienide on June 15, 2005, 09:11:00 AM
Its just... more people played with keyboard and mouse.. for hours and hours... so its more accustomed to use....
If you compare a great joystick player with a great mouse player.... it will be the same ....
Match the best mouse player against one of the Ogres or something like that...
IF u are used to the joystick > use it ... its just as fast ....
Post by: incognegro on June 15, 2005, 10:20:00 AM
QUOTE
What is not a computer about the xbox ... and the xbox360...
It IS a computer ....
It IS a computer ....
No its not.....not because it has PC characteristics doesnt make it a PC. I can surf the web with my phone, doesnt make it a pc. I can watch tv on my monitor and that doesnt make it a tv.
The xbox was built around pc technology but with a different purpose than pc's thus theyre is no comparison. Modding turned it into a watered down PC ( i must admit the only reason i modded mine was cause my pc sux and i dont have the cash to upgrade it so i use it as an extension of my pc) but that wasn't the purpose for it.
consoles use controllers
PC's use keyboard and mouse etc.
If you like sims and rts's and all that deep stuff fire up a PC
But if quick and simple fun with your friends or ppl who are just starting to play games then Consoles all the way
thats all there is to it.
Post by: Carlo210 on June 15, 2005, 01:03:00 PM
QUOTE(scienide @ Jun 15 2005, 03:48 PM)
What do you say against people who play racing games with a steering wheele?
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 15, 2005, 01:09:00 PM
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Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 15, 2005, 01:09:00 PM
QUOTE(Carlo210 @ Jun 15 2005, 03:14 PM)
Yes it is. But as you SHOULD KNOW, mouse support is very different to joystick or steering wheel support. All steering wheels are are nicely designed controllers. The steering wheel acts as a joystick, with different sensitivity points. Basically, it is fooling the port to think that the streering wheel is a joystick, using NO DIFFERENT CONROL DESIGNS, unlikea mouse. 
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: Carlo210 on June 15, 2005, 01:13:00 PM
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Post by: Carlo210 on June 15, 2005, 01:13:00 PM
QUOTE(scienide @ Jun 15 2005, 05:22 PM)
I dont think playing with a mouse gives you an advantage...
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: Carlo210 on June 15, 2005, 01:15:00 PM
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Post by: Carlo210 on June 15, 2005, 01:15:00 PM
QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Jun 15 2005, 09:20 PM)
Take the best xbox counter-strike player and put them up against the best PC counter-strike player and the xbox player would get slaughtered.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: Carlo210 on June 15, 2005, 05:29:00 PM
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: Carlo210 on June 16, 2005, 05:05:00 AM
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: Carlo210 on June 16, 2005, 01:48:00 PM
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 17, 2005, 10:14:00 AM
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Post by: Carlo210 on June 15, 2005, 05:29:00 PM
Post by: Carlo210 on June 16, 2005, 05:05:00 AM
Post by: Carlo210 on June 16, 2005, 01:48:00 PM
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 17, 2005, 10:14:00 AM
QUOTE(Carlo210 @ Jun 16 2005, 03:59 PM)
There is still a clear advantage that mice have over joysticks.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: lostboyz on June 17, 2005, 10:21:00 AM
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good point
the most boring and useless converstations happen when everyone agrees, just a thought
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: twistedsymphony on June 17, 2005, 02:26:00 PM
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considering how much of a heated debate issues like this are I'm sure it will be addressed one way or another in the games that could use either device at an advantage. For instance when you search for match making game they might have options to filter out keyboard/mouse players or joystick player if you so desire.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 18, 2005, 07:29:00 PM
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This is the way I feel they should address it..........if we can use a mouse and keyboard.
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: corridon on June 18, 2005, 09:39:00 PM
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Title: Pc-xbox360
Post by: Carlo210 on June 19, 2005, 09:05:00 AM
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Yeah, so? We already know that people playing FFX1 play along with pc and ps2 gamers. What is your point?
You won't be seeing that with many other games, though, like Halo3 or ut2007 because:
1. Xbox360 can't and won't keep up with the pc mod community of ut2007 and other similar titles. even though you can download other peoples content, after a year of ut2007 being out, almost every room is modded, with a custom map you gotta download in order to play it. Tell me who is going to upload everything from their pc to the xbox with the hassle of upload/download times and non-pc interface. These are pc gamers, proud and loyal. F*** xbox360, they say (generally the hardcore pc gamers of course).
2. Xbox360 relies on XBOX Live. Every game is online enabled and aware of the fact that Clans are supported through xbox live. friends lists are supported through xbox live. and just about everything else. How are you going to play with a pc user on the same level as playing with an xbox360 user? You can't invite the pc user to your clan because he/she is running a pc version, with clans supported through the game (via ps2). This means that pc users will hve to have a pc version of xbox live (already rumored by MS before e3 to solve the pc-xbox360 cross platform problems). Tell me how many Loyal and proud pc gamers are going to pay 60 bucks a month JUST to play games online with xbox360 users when they could play online for free with fellow pc gamers.
Post by: lostboyz on June 17, 2005, 10:21:00 AM
the most boring and useless converstations happen when everyone agrees, just a thought
Post by: twistedsymphony on June 17, 2005, 02:26:00 PM
Post by: deftonesmx17 on June 18, 2005, 07:29:00 PM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Jun 17 2005, 04:37 PM)
For instance when you search for match making game they might have options to filter out keyboard/mouse players or joystick player if you so desire.
This is the way I feel they should address it..........if we can use a mouse and keyboard.
Post by: corridon on June 18, 2005, 09:39:00 PM
QUOTE
More PC connectivity will come in the form of Liv compatability with Instant Messenger. Henshaw believes that we'll see PC-to-XBOX 360 instant messenger and video chats "within a year to 18 months" of launch, and possibly cross-platform gaming between XBOX 360 and PC further along the line.
Post by: Carlo210 on June 19, 2005, 09:05:00 AM
You won't be seeing that with many other games, though, like Halo3 or ut2007 because:
1. Xbox360 can't and won't keep up with the pc mod community of ut2007 and other similar titles. even though you can download other peoples content, after a year of ut2007 being out, almost every room is modded, with a custom map you gotta download in order to play it. Tell me who is going to upload everything from their pc to the xbox with the hassle of upload/download times and non-pc interface. These are pc gamers, proud and loyal. F*** xbox360, they say (generally the hardcore pc gamers of course).
2. Xbox360 relies on XBOX Live. Every game is online enabled and aware of the fact that Clans are supported through xbox live. friends lists are supported through xbox live. and just about everything else. How are you going to play with a pc user on the same level as playing with an xbox360 user? You can't invite the pc user to your clan because he/she is running a pc version, with clans supported through the game (via ps2). This means that pc users will hve to have a pc version of xbox live (already rumored by MS before e3 to solve the pc-xbox360 cross platform problems). Tell me how many Loyal and proud pc gamers are going to pay 60 bucks a month JUST to play games online with xbox360 users when they could play online for free with fellow pc gamers.