Post by: jizmo on December 18, 2005, 03:07:00 AM
Here's how it looks like
And the damn thing cost me $45. Damn I'm pissed off.
Has anyone tested any component to VGA transcoders, like VD-Z3, to test out if transcoded component would look better than the crappy VGA?
This post has been edited by jizmo: Dec 18 2005, 11:20 AM
Post by: Foe-hammer on December 18, 2005, 03:19:00 AM
Before you adjust anything, make sure your monitor has warmed up for 30 min.
First thing is to do is adjust your brightness settings. Turn up your brightness high, then turn it down just to the point that your blacks are true blacks.
Second, turn up your contrast all the way.
Third, adjust your color temp to high, or adjust them manually tell the colors have less red and brown in them, and have more vibrant greens and blues.
Doing this gives me an excellent picture with on my monitor via 360 vga.
Post by: jizmo on December 18, 2005, 03:26:00 AM
From what I've read, the problem seems to occure with LCD TVs. I'm sure my old CRT monitor would be more forgiving.
This post has been edited by jizmo: Dec 18 2005, 11:31 AM
Post by: Foe-hammer on December 18, 2005, 03:32:00 AM
I just noticed the link you gave in your first post. The only prob with the vga cable image is the idiot needs to turn down his monitors brightness setting, and it would look the same as the other, component, picture.
This post has been edited by Foe-hammer: Dec 18 2005, 11:39 AM
Post by: jizmo on December 18, 2005, 03:52:00 AM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Dec 18 2005, 12:32 PM) 
The only prob with the vga cable image is the idiot needs to turn down his monitors brightness setting, and it would look the same as the other, component, picture.
You're missing the point, I'm afraid. If the picture is burnt-out and badly washed, the damage is irraversible. Turning down the brightness doesn't re-invent the lost shades, it just makes all the shades burnt to white darker (=gray), making the image look pretty flat and dim.
Like this.
MS should've offered HDMI. Hopefully they're working on one.
This post has been edited by jizmo: Dec 18 2005, 11:56 AM
Post by: Foe-hammer on December 18, 2005, 03:20:00 PM
First of all, If they are, how did you take such high quality video image of your 360.
If so, i appoligize for saying idiot; i just thought it was some picture you found, and where refering to.
I wrote it was too much brightness, because that is exactly what an image looks like on my pc crt monitor (colors all washed out, and not rich), but if i turn down the brightness is fixes it.
This post has been edited by Foe-hammer: Dec 18 2005, 11:22 PM
Post by: RocketMBA on December 18, 2005, 03:23:00 PM
Post by: gamerguy999 on December 18, 2005, 04:41:00 PM
QUOTE(RocketMBA @ Dec 18 2005, 03:23 PM) 
I'd say that the VGA image is better than the component image. But then again, I have glasses so strong I can see into the future.
I agree.
In the example you provided, the VGA picture looks much better to me, since you can actually see all the details instead of it being dark.
Post by: redwolf on December 18, 2005, 05:07:00 PM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Dec 18 2005, 12:07 PM)
how the hell did you capture that image? or is that been photoshoped to show us example to what you mean?
Post by: Arakon on December 18, 2005, 07:23:00 PM
in my experience, using my own selfbuilt vga cable, the image is perfect without any additional adjustments on a 17" CRT, 17" TFT, and a 32" HDTV LCD.
Post by: Mick Garvey on December 19, 2005, 01:54:00 PM
Post by: Ezrem on December 19, 2005, 02:28:00 PM
I am using a Sony G540P 21" CRT for a display. In its day, this was a $1200+ PC monitor.
I assure you there are no issues with this display, as I use it for my PC's regularly.
When connecting an XBOX 360, the image looks washed out as others have said. Almost as if someone has raised the gamma correction to its maximum setting on the source device. This is especially noticeable when playing Condemned, which inserts bars on the top and bottom of the image to provide a 16:9 widescreen experience. The bars, which SHOULD be as deep a black as one can find, are a medium gray in color.
When switching to input 2, which I use for my PC's, I am rewarded with normal rich colors, and no washed-out look. Areas that are black look black, etc.
When I run the 360 through my Sony KV34XBR910 high definition TV using the supplied component video cable I am rewarded with the same normal rich colors I expect from every other source used on that TV.
In summary, This problem only appears to exist when using the VGA cable.
Post by: ybaig123 on December 19, 2005, 02:24:00 PM
it looks amazing with no problems 
Post by: Mick Garvey on December 19, 2005, 03:32:00 PM
But seriously there IS a problem. Maybe some do not notice but I notice it ALOT. If you compared VGA to RGB directly Im sure there would be a huge difference and it would be very noticible.
I also noticed how the 16x9 bars are not black while playing PDZ, if I use it on my computer and watch a 16x9 it looks WAY WAY WAY darker black and the colors are alot richer.
Post by: biosehnsucht on December 19, 2005, 05:34:00 PM
1280x1024 actually looks more washed out however vs just overbright.. and since PGR3 has a buggy handling of 1280x1024 and doesn't scale to 16:9 letterbox on its own like the other games I've just left it in 1280x720 (which I already had squeezed anyways from my xbox1 + vdigi)
In either case, my monitor is a few years old and noticibly more washed out in general and harder to get true blacks even on the PC and see things still (bad gamma). I actually have a 100% identical one that hasn't been used much (both are leftovers from the company my mom used to work for, I haven't the desk space for dual monitors so I've just kept the other for LANs so I don't have to move the desktop monitor out from under my center channel speaker) and the lesser used one has MUCH better picture. Normally, you wouldn't notice that the more used one is worse, but if you switch from the other you can't say anything but "wow!".
This other monitor hasn't the same blacklevel/gamma issues, its just that the more used one's phosphors are more tired out (you can only bombard something with electrons so much.. ). When I've had the xbox on it before w/ the vdigi it also looked better than on the one I use most of the time.
I have no problems with the VGA cable for the 360, it looks better than the VDigi (which has some issues at 720p with sharp horizontal constrasts of color/brightness causing some smearing horizontally, but only on really extreme like near blacks to near whites/colors, and this isn't helped any by the old monitor - 480p is fine).
My monitor is set 100% constrast and something like 75-80% brightness.. color temp is not maxed out, forget what it was but I set it the last time I was doing color calibration on the PC.
Post by: Carlo210 on December 19, 2005, 08:22:00 PM
QUOTE(Ezrem @ Dec 19 2005, 10:28 PM)
I just purchased a VGA cable over the weekend and have noticed the same issue.
I am using a Sony G540P 21" CRT for a display. In its day, this was a $1200+ PC monitor.
I assure you there are no issues with this display, as I use it for my PC's regularly.
When connecting an XBOX 360, the image looks washed out as others have said. Almost as if someone has raised the gamma correction to its maximum setting on the source device. This is especially noticeable when playing Condemned, which inserts bars on the top and bottom of the image to provide a 16:9 widescreen experience. The bars, which SHOULD be as deep a black as one can find, are a medium gray in color.
When switching to input 2, which I use for my PC's, I am rewarded with normal rich colors, and no washed-out look. Areas that are black look black, etc.
When I run the 360 through my Sony KV34XBR910 high definition TV using the supplied component video cable I am rewarded with the same normal rich colors I expect from every other source used on that TV.
In summary, This problem only appears to exist when using the VGA cable.
Why don't you lower your contrast??
This VGA cable better not be bad. It seems as if most of your guys' problems are because you don't feel like calibrating your screen or lowering contrast/brightness. "It's dark, it's washed, it;s too bright". Sounds like high brightness/contrast to me. Only complaint I've been hearing from you guys.
Post by: Foe-hammer on December 19, 2005, 10:54:00 PM
The main problem the 360 has with vga is in order to get a true, absolute blacks, the overall picture suffers from being too dark.
The other problem is that there is not enough contrast.
These two problems are non-existant when i play pc games on my same pc monitor i use for the 360. I wonder what the reason(s) could be.
That being said, the picture quality still looks amazing. The detail and color balance looks much better then what i get on my brothers DLP HDTV.
Post by: Foe-hammer on December 20, 2005, 04:35:00 AM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Dec 20 2005, 12:18 AM)
The question is; why didn't MS include gamma settings in x360's preferences, there would surely be a good demand for that.
No doubt.
Gamma, plus individual brightness and contrast settings would be a god send, and you'd thing a no brainer for MS to put in the 360 dash.
I would also like the option to reconfig the button mapping in the 360 dash for game that force one to play a certain way. Because very few games offer complete button reconfig, and those that offer some are very limiting.
It must be that devs think console gamers are idiots that will get confused with too many settings.
because with PC games, both issues are addressed.
Post by: jizmo on December 20, 2005, 08:49:00 AM
QUOTE(Ezrem @ Dec 20 2005, 05:14 PM)
I think asking MS to include a gamma correction bar on the dashboard is right on the money. This appears to be exactly what we need. I am thinking there must be some kind of bug that jacks the gamma all the way up when the VGA cable is connected. Hopefully it can be corrected by software, as I will certainly be unhappy if some kind of hardware design flaw keeps me from using VGA cable for optimum image quality on the next 1366x768 pixel 40" LCD or 50" Plasma panel I buy.
Since this is obviously an issue with many others out there, it should be raised to public knowledge. Maybe someone here knows a good way to approach MS on this subject, since I'm pretty sure that any calls to MS hotlines will be replied with uneducated guesses instead of taking things to further suspection.
I'm having the same deranged feeling of unhappiness than you. Here I am, having sunk $2600 to my x360, HDTV and now additional $45 to the VGA cable, and I'm not getting nearly the best picture out of my set.
Plus, as I was reading the forum conversation you sent, I clearly remember using HTPC with the VGA input in my LCD TV and the colors were
Quoting the ntsc-uk.domino thread:
QUOTE
Feeding in any VGA source has always produced an exceptionally vibrant picture.
Same thing here, HTPC input from VGA jack has been almost *too* vibrant in colors. x360's VGA is like there was a greaseproof paper glued on top of my TV screen.
Post by: Arakon on December 20, 2005, 06:27:00 PM
Post by: frobnitzz on December 21, 2005, 04:00:00 AM
Just to add my 2 peneth worth...
I've just unpacked my vga cable made by joytech. Been using the standard componant cable from M$ for a while now (which btw is soooo cheap compared to the old M$ comp cable).
So, plugged in switched on and omg... what a heap of crud picture... grey and washed out as described. Changed the dash settings to widescreen and 1280x1024.. still no better.
Went in to my telly box menu to have a look at colour settings etc and changed the PSM? setting from Standard to Dynamic - BAM - superb picture. Back to Standard, STILL excellent picture... very odd. Seems like I had to re-teach my TV about the VGA input.
I'm running a 42" LG plasma (5000:1)
To conclude, IMO the vga picture is better than componant (which technically it should be!).
Post by: jizmo on December 21, 2005, 05:44:00 AM
QUOTE(frobnitzz @ Dec 21 2005, 01:07 PM)
Went in to my telly box menu to have a look at colour settings etc and changed the PSM? setting from Standard to Dynamic - BAM - superb picture. Back to Standard, STILL excellent picture... very odd. Seems like I had to re-teach my TV about the VGA input.
Interesting. Many LCD TV's have vast amount of picture profiles, but they are locked when using VGA or DVI inputs.
You said that colors were washed out, but did you have problems with too much brightness (overburning)?
QUOTE(frobnitzz @ Dec 21 2005, 01:07 PM)
To conclude, IMO the vga picture is better than componant (which technically it should be!).
It's better on paper to begin with, and in also practise mostly because most TV's overscan material from component cables (as is done with most signals), and some resolution is lost. VGA signal is shown as whole.
This is very much the reason why I'd like to get the damn thing working.
Post by: jizmo on December 21, 2005, 06:39:00 AM
QUOTE(Arakon @ Dec 21 2005, 03:34 AM)
one thing you could attempt is to add resistors to the R, G and B lines, it would weaken the signal and reduce the brightness of it some.
I reckon I'm forced to try this out, since I'm not getting help from anywhere else.
So, I'll make a convertor piece with female and male VGA ports, and connect them with cables that have resistors in RGB lines. Do only the first three lines count or should they be soldered on other pins as well.
What kind of resistors do you reckon that would do the job? Something like 15-20% darker might just do the job. Even 10% might do since I don't want to overkill it.
Post by: Arakon on December 21, 2005, 06:56:00 AM
Post by: frobnitzz on December 21, 2005, 10:25:00 AM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Dec 21 2005, 12:51 PM)
Many LCD TV's
It's a plasma, not LCD.
Post by: jizmo on December 21, 2005, 12:18:00 PM
Fifa Start Screen
You can see everything near-white has burned to white. The lost information is best shown on EA logo. No way of bringing this back by TV settings.
Fifa Start Demo
Faces that have should have beige shades have turned almost white. To be honest looks worse in this shot than in reality, but the faces are still burnt so much that I really prefer the component cable. And yes, I know the images are from different players, but the lighting was the same for both.
I tried the VGA on my Viewsonic monitor, and it looks a bit better, but still too bright and washed out compared to component.
Post by: FlashKick on December 21, 2005, 04:10:00 PM
Post by: shodanjr_gr on December 21, 2005, 05:20:00 PM
Post by: jizmo on December 22, 2005, 05:32:00 AM
QUOTE(Snookieboy @ Dec 22 2005, 03:24 AM)
I'm also experiencing what people say with VGA being bright and washed out and component being too dark.
I called MS hotline yesterday and they said my cable is broken. I said this wasn't an isolated case, and that there are many others who have withnessed the same thing on forums.
Don't believe what you read in forums, he said and urged me to get my cable changed. I'll do just that, while I'm pretty confident i'll be having the exact same kind of problems with the other cable as well.
QUOTE(Snookieboy @ Dec 22 2005, 03:24 AM)
(For example Halo 2, you have to update it to play on Live, and the Updater wont work on a VGA Cable). I'm keeping both cables set up so I can switch between them easily, until someone can suggest a good fix
I also ran into this when running BC with VGA cable. It just suggested me to lower my video mode, which I did but it didn't help at all. It didn't state clearly that I'd have to have whole different cable and screenmode set to 480p instead.
Thought, when you figure it out eventually, you can make all the downloads at once by playing on live with lores for awhile and then switch back to VGA.
Still, two design flaws (bc not fully compatible with vga and its non-informative error message) is not something I'd expect from a company is MS' caliber and makes me further suspect there are some other shortcomings with the hard/software.
And I really suspect there's one in the VGA cable, in general.
Post by: villain1 on December 22, 2005, 09:23:00 AM
I have the Joytech cable and i have the same problem,washed out colurs etc.
Post by: cyberg4 on December 22, 2005, 09:32:00 AM
QUOTE(Snookieboy @ Dec 21 2005, 06:24 PM)
When I used component with my 360, when playing Perfect Dark Zero I found "dark areas" far too dark. For example on the nightclub level I just found parts of the level almost pitch black.
In the PDZ video options you can adjust the brightness of the game in the video options (from the main menu) hope this helps.
Post by: jizmo on December 22, 2005, 09:59:00 AM
So if Joytech has issues as well, it really isn't the problem with the cable, there's something wrong in x360's settings when using a VGA.
Post by: Foe-hammer on December 22, 2005, 02:02:00 PM
QUOTE(Snookieboy @ Dec 21 2005, 06:24 PM)
...but I do find it annoying when you cant play some original xbox games (For example Halo 2, you have to update it to play on Live, and the Updater wont work on a VGA Cable).
Um, no. Halo 2 works perfect for me in all resolutions via the vga cable. And i just played halo 2 on live today.
Post by: Foe-hammer on December 23, 2005, 01:13:00 AM
QUOTE(Snookieboy @ Dec 22 2005, 08:53 PM)
Did you run the Original update when you first placed Halo 2 in your Xbox 360, where Halo 2 needs to update itself and you see the Original Xbox 1 Dashboard when this happens?
Yes. And the original xbox dash updater (green grid) was visible on my pc monitor via vga.
Post by: MadFerIt2005 on December 23, 2005, 02:54:00 PM
I'm using the 26" version of the official 360 HDTV (Samsung LTR-268W TFT LCD). Instead of component I use the VGA and set it to 1368x768 (forget the exact numbers, but it's the last resolution option you get) since that matches the native resolution of my tv.
Post by: biosehnsucht on December 23, 2005, 05:41:00 PM
In fact the first time I even used the stock composite/component cable was when I took it to work to show it off
up to then I used the VGA!
Post by: Foe-hammer on December 24, 2005, 12:42:00 AM
QUOTE(Snookieboy @ Dec 23 2005, 05:24 AM)
Sweet
May I ask what settings you use for the display output? and is your game PAL or NTSC?
Thanks
Res was 1280 x 1024 (i doubt this would matter)
Game and system was NTSC (most likely the issue)
Post by: Chris_F on December 28, 2005, 02:57:00 PM
Post by: maz57 on December 28, 2005, 08:25:00 PM
At first I used 1280x720 and it looked washed out, but when I switched to the highest setting 1368x768 (or something like that) I get a perfect image, nothing washed out at all.
I'm using a Dell 2005fpw, 20" widescreen (1680x1050 native, 16:10 aspect ratio)
So you can try different resolutions to see if that helps at all, if you havent already.
Post by: RelicSoul on December 28, 2005, 10:32:00 PM
my LCD with Kameo (I keep using Kameo as an example because of the colors, graphics etc.) and it looks better than those pics that other guy posted. I don't see why people are saying he photoshoped those.
[]Deace
Post by: assmonkey on December 29, 2005, 10:35:00 AM
Post by: Shakey_Jake33 on December 29, 2005, 05:02:00 PM
QUOTE(Ezrem @ Dec 20 2005, 05:14 PM)
On at least one forum I've also seen mention of some setting in various TV's to change the mode of the VGA port. Some people claim to have PC and "DTV" modes, and switching between the two produces different results with the 360 VGA cable:
http://ntsc-uk.domin...ghlight=samsung
Indeed, I'm one of the people who posted in that topic and has a 'DTV' setting.
Basically, I have an LG 26LX2R LCD HDTV, which accepts VGA through the DVI-I port. Both the DVI/VGA and HDMI port have separate 'PC' and 'DTV' modes. I'm not 100% sure what the actual difference is, I'm told they use a different colourspace and different amounts of overscan, but setting the port to 'PC' on anything but a PC results in a washed image, whereas DTV results in a correct image.
It's strange. My TV has a native resolution of 1366x768, so I planned to use the 1360x768 option and avoid upscaling. However, my TV detected this resolution as a PC resolution (even in DTV mode) and the results were a washed image. This also happened in 1280x768 and all other resolutions.
However. Setting my TV to DTV mode and sticking to 720p resulted in a correct image with no washed output whatsoever. VGA does seem a little lighter at first, but I reckon the Component output may be too dark. You can literally SEE more when using the VGA cable.
Anyway, anyone who has an LCD TV which lets them choose between PC and DTV mode (or it might be called 'AV' mode), either from the menu or via the service menu, should give it a go, and stick to 720p.
I reckon the washed output is caused by the TV taking the 360 output as a Pc output and using PC colourspace.
Post by: RocketMBA on January 01, 2006, 10:33:00 AM
...But wait - what if my projector suffers the same flaw?! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 01, 2006, 05:28:00 PM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Jan 1 2006, 10:23 AM)
Yup, after studying the subject more it really seems to boil down to this. Most LCD TVs take in VGA and assume PC levels, but x360's VGA sends video levels. If there's no switch in your LCD for changing the type of the input, the image will be washed out.
It's not entirely MS' fault, but given that so few TV sets are designed to take in video-level VGA, I can't fully accept the decision. On most LCD TV's the fix could be done with firmware upgrade adding the switch or having the repair man come in and adjust the TV set manually from service menus.
So, If you're shopping for LCD TV to use with your x360, you should add the support of video-level VGA to the already lenghty requirement list. I wish I knew then when I was shopping for my LCD.
If what you are typing is true, then all those who play their 360 on a pc monitor via vga is screwed. Considering one of the main features of the 360 is to hook up to a pc monitor, i doubt MS overlooked the issue. But who knows. If it is true then it would explain the contrast and true black problems, and it would mean that it could be fixed by MS via a patch. That's is if they give a shit, and are listening to their customers.
Post by: DaGamePimp on January 01, 2006, 05:41:00 PM
---DGP---
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 02, 2006, 11:37:00 AM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Jan 2 2006, 02:43 AM)
It could be fixed yes, many recent VGA/DVI/HDMI DVD players have the option for video/pc levels in the menus, so they've recognized the situation and fixed it. But do you think that they give a rats ass if we address this issue to MS? They'll say that your TV manufacturer is to blame for not supporting video levels in VGA. Complain to your TV manufacturer and they'll say MS is to blame for using video levels, that aren't widely supported.
Or how about the thousands who play their 360 on a pc monitor via vga. PC monitors only accept pc levels. You'd think that the pc/video levels would be addressed in the dash menu, considering MS advertises the 360 being compatible with a PC monitor. I say this, because it seems that the xbox is sending video levels to my pc monitor. How else would you explain the inferior contrast and black levels i'm getting from the 360 on my pc monitor compared to pc games on the same pc monitor?
But then again, they cannot even get halo 2 (their most prized possession) to run correctly on a pc monitor in any higher res then 640 x 480 (the other 6 supported resolutions only support widescreen halo 2, so two player split screen is always split vertically), so i highly doubt they will fix the video/pc levels issue.
WTF, MS......way to listen to your consumers.
Post by: Carlo210 on January 02, 2006, 06:09:00 PM
Post by: Mick Garvey on January 02, 2006, 08:43:00 PM
I guess Ill go down and try and change the res. like that one guy says, then Ill try all of my other computer monitors i guess.
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 02, 2006, 11:25:00 PM
QUOTE(Carlo210 @ Jan 2 2006, 06:16 PM)
Is the example on the first page (the outfit example) a good example of how the vga cable looks compared to component??
No, not even close to that bad for a pc crt monitor. Having washed out colors is not even an issue, unless one turns up the brightness way too much. The picture actually looks very good, but as i mentioned, it needs more contrast and better black levels.
Post by: jizmo on January 03, 2006, 12:59:00 AM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Jan 2 2006, 08:44 PM)
so i highly doubt they will fix the video/pc levels issue.
It's basically about MS wanting to have minimum amount of options in dashboard. More options means more simple folks having more problems and calling more to MS' hotlines. It's like that situation with component's TV <-> HDTV switch, which is clearly visible and well documented, but most mouth breathers out there couldn't figure it out and phoned an angry call to MS.
PC/Video switch in settings would help us, but it'd confuse those who cannot chew gum and walk at the same time, so my bet is that MS won't put it in even if we ask.
And Carlo, again, you should read these pages before commenting.
Here's the overburned / washed out image for you again
Post by: jizmo on January 03, 2006, 04:44:00 AM
QUOTE(okandroid @ Jan 3 2006, 11:25 AM)
Well after reading this thread Im a little bit worried and confused. I plan to buy a Dell 2005fpw and a VGA cable, but now Im hesitant. Are certain VGA cables better than others, or is this a problem with the system. thanks in advance.
No, all of them perform alike.
If you're uncertain about X device working well with cable Y in device Z, just take X and Y and go to the store and ask if you can try it out with device Z. And this goes for almost everything you plan to buy in your life. Trying it out yourself is always the best bet.
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 03, 2006, 05:51:00 AM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Jan 3 2006, 01:06 AM)
It's basically about MS wanting to have minimum amount of options in dashboard. More options means more simple folks having more problems and calling more to MS' hotlines. It's like that situation with component's TV <-> HDTV switch, which is clearly visible and well documented, but most mouth breathers out there couldn't figure it out and phoned an angry call to MS.
PC/Video switch in settings would help us, but it'd confuse those who cannot chew gum and walk at the same time, so my bet is that MS won't put it in even if we ask.
Here's the overburned / washed out image for you again
I too believe that you are 100% correct with your assumption. And that is what pisses me off the most about consoles (MS more then the other two), they are setup as simple as possible in order to not confuse the average console gaming moron. I love pc gaming just for the reason of having all the options i can mess with, and customize it to my liking.
Post by: redwolf on January 03, 2006, 07:02:00 AM
Post by: Carlo210 on January 03, 2006, 12:51:00 PM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Jan 3 2006, 09:06 AM)
It's basically about MS wanting to have minimum amount of options in dashboard. More options means more simple folks having more problems and calling more to MS' hotlines. It's like that situation with component's TV <-> HDTV switch, which is clearly visible and well documented, but most mouth breathers out there couldn't figure it out and phoned an angry call to MS.
PC/Video switch in settings would help us, but it'd confuse those who cannot chew gum and walk at the same time, so my bet is that MS won't put it in even if we ask.
And Carlo, again, you should read these pages before commenting.
Here's the overburned / washed out image for you again
Excuse me? I've read the whole thread. You see, even on my 'dark' bedroom monitor (high black threshhold), the FIFA screens don't look good no matter what because there is no attainable data. It is a screen that shows the effects of the burn in, but, even if I calibrate my monitor to be darker or whatnot, I cannot recieve the 'fixed' picture because the only data that the screen shows is 'whiteness', not grey Covered by 'whiteness'.
Do you udnerstand what I'm getting at?
The first pic, the outfit example, looks fine on my bedroom monitor because nothing is burnt out, it's jsut a darker and duller picture. The FIFA screen is an image with whites.
For example, if I view a hockey arena on my tv, pump up the brightness so the blue and red lines on the rink are burnt to WHITE, and take a picture with my camera - all you will see on your computer is a white rink. If you turn down your brightness, you aren't gonna be able to see the blue and red lines on the ice because the data doesn't exist on the image.
I'm sure you know this, I'm just trying to get my point across. The first screen looks fine to me ebcause there is no image damage, just more of a slight change in overall contrast and color depth. The FIFA pics have a white burn effect that anyone would see with any monitor.
What I'm trying to say is that you can't tell me that those screens are carbon copy examples of what anyone else would get on their monitors. The only way to see if you can FIX the problem for different monitors is to hook up a 360 to it. With the 360, you can attain those 'blue and red lines on the ice' because the data still exists. With a photo of a white rink, the data DOESN'T exist.
Not a flame post.
Post by: Shakey_Jake33 on January 03, 2006, 12:54:00 PM
Surely a patch to correct colourlevels and the amount of overscan (that's the difference between PC level and Video level - Video level actually has slight overscan allowance, remember) is all software-based, so it shouldn't be too hard?
It's a pain. I still prefer the VGA cable on my LCD TV because of the superior quality a pure RGBHV picture gives over a YPbPr one, it's just annoying the solution is still less than perfect. Fixing the VGA would somewhat ease the pain of a lack of DVI/HDMI.
Post by: Carlo210 on January 03, 2006, 06:57:00 PM
QUOTE(Shakey_Jake33 @ Jan 3 2006, 09:01 PM)
Lets face it, only the slighly more 'advanced' user like us are going to be using the VGA cable anyway, so it can't be that hard to add a little PC/Video selector in the Video Settings on the dash. I wonder if MS are even aware of the issue though?
Surely a patch to correct colourlevels and the amount of overscan (that's the difference between PC level and Video level - Video level actually has slight overscan allowance, remember) is all software-based, so it shouldn't be too hard?
It's a pain. I still prefer the VGA cable on my LCD TV because of the superior quality a pure RGBHV picture gives over a YPbPr one, it's just annoying the solution is still less than perfect. Fixing the VGA would somewhat ease the pain of a lack of DVI/HDMI.
Hopefully, the issues aren't very bothering tome. I don't mind if they are noticeable, but if I can make them less noticeable, then I may be fine. Hey, my monitor is my only means of hd. Plus, I'm not one of those 'dark, natural black level' guys. I like my display bright/not dark and I like dark areas to be viewable in games.
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 04, 2006, 12:31:00 AM
QUOTE(Carlo210 @ Jan 3 2006, 07:04 PM)
I'm not one of those 'dark, natural black level' guys. I like my display bright/not dark and I like dark areas to be viewable in games.
lol.
If you are referring to me, you have me all wrong. I have to have my picture bright and vivid. But the blacks have to be true blacks, without making the overall picture too dark. By adjusting the black levels to true black it eliminates washed out colors due to too much brightness.
What i mean is, in a game, for example halo, when i look up at the night sky, the damn sky better be black, not gray. And in order to make the night sky appear pitch black by turning down the brightness setting, it better not make the bright, colorful part of the game too dark. I for one want dark areas of a game to be dark, not some artificial gray color, due to retard brightness calibration (i'm not inferring that you do this, lol). Make sence?
Post by: Shakey_Jake33 on January 04, 2006, 12:59:00 AM
Post by: redwolf on January 04, 2006, 02:53:00 PM
Post by: Thraxen on January 08, 2006, 03:34:00 PM
I've tried playing with my TV's controls to fix the problem, but of course got no where since the problem is with the signal being sent out by the 360. If I turn down the birhgtness in an attempt to make the colors appear less washed out the overall image is too f'ing dark. Between this and the noise my 360 is starting to really annoy me.
Post by: theboyfromthemoon on January 09, 2006, 01:00:00 PM
Post by: MaTiAz on January 09, 2006, 01:11:00 PM
OT: Am I the only one who thinks that those Samsung HDTVs used in Xbox kiosks suck?
Post by: Gazcoigne on January 09, 2006, 03:26:00 PM
heres my PC through VGA
mine seems ok no change in tvs settings for both pictures
Post by: jizmo on January 10, 2006, 03:18:00 AM
QUOTE(theboyfromthemoon @ Jan 9 2006, 10:07 PM)
Same problem here with a crt Sony, but I solved the problem with a x2vga box adapted to xb360, it's pretty easy, the x2vga box needs the hdtv colors and +5v, you can ignore the mod wires in the x2vga box. The colors are more vibrant. If someone needs a scheme I'll post.
Please do. Could you also confirm this on LCD? x2vga (the first version) gives poor results on many LCD TVs, so I'm a bit afraid getting one and then screwing it up and ending up with a TV that doesn't like my LCD.
QUOTE(Gazcoigne @ Jan 10 2006, 12:33 AM)
heres my 26 running with a crappy pelican VGA cable
Wow. That's what it *should* look like
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 10, 2006, 03:50:00 AM
The xbox was connected to the monitor by a homemade vga cable (5BNC to vga cable connected to a MS HD pack), plus vga bios (enables the xbox to do true vga; transcoders, like the x2vga, was not necessary). I went this route, because it is true vga, and no conversion was taking place.
The 360 was connected to the monitor with a monster 360 vga cable.
Both were connected to the monitor at the same time (have two vga ins), with a switch on the front to change inputs.
The game i used to compare picture quality was Halo 2.
I tested them both at the same widescreen resolution, and then bumped up the 360's to 720p.
I tweaked the setting on the monitor for the two consoles, to the best that was possible (turned up the color temp. to high, contrast maxed, and brightness turned down until blacks were acceptable; not gray).
In both cases, the xbox gave me a noticeably superior quality of picture. The colors were more vibrant, and everything was much brighter (more contrast), while maintaining true blacks, and no washed-out colors. Basically, the xbox gave me the same type of picture quality i get with pc games on my monitor.
The simplest way i could describe the 360's vga picture quality to the xbox's, in one word, is dull.
Although the xbox gave the better picture, the 360's looks real good, and I would have been content with it if i had not compared it to the xbox, or any pc game for that matter.
It still is very odd that there is this very apparent issue with the vga capabilities of the 360.
Post by: redwolf on January 10, 2006, 10:48:00 AM
QUOTE(redwolf @ Jan 5 2006, 12:00 AM)
anyone posted this issue in the xbox.com forum?
ok i just mentioned this in xbox.com forum (lol i don't think they know anything about this), not sure if it will help, but atleast it's the official forum, anyone wanna add few comments, so hopefully M$ can fix it
http://forums.xbox.c...1/ShowPost.aspx
Post by: okandroid on January 14, 2006, 10:56:00 AM
Post by: KiLLa_App on January 15, 2006, 11:47:00 PM
all these issues discribed in this thread are user related due to your pc monitors being old an crappy or you dont no how to correct the gamma on your lcd screen if you bought a lcd screen with out gamma correction your a idiot! an deserve the crappy visuals you are getting
there is no problem here except the gamma is up 2 high , the contrast is through the roof an your all little kids who obviously dont have a fragging clue wtf u are talking about
playing xbox 360 on a ancient crt 93 monitor is bound to look like shit eva thought of that ? jackasses
al.so ther user that posted the pics off this site onto xbox.com is due to be susppended from xbox.com perminatly MS dont look to kindly apon xbox scene
Post by: jizmo on January 16, 2006, 01:44:00 AM
QUOTE(KiLLa_App @ Jan 16 2006, 08:54 AM)
you bought a lcd screen with out gamma correction your a idiot!
playing xbox 360 on a ancient crt 93 monitor is bound to look like shit eva thought of that ? jackasses
al.so ther user that posted the pics off this site onto xbox.com is due to be susppended from xbox.com perminatly
I have a feeling someone else will be susppended perminatly too if he keeps this up
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 16, 2006, 03:23:00 AM
QUOTE(KiLLa_App @ Jan 15 2006, 11:54 PM)
i have a 23" dell lcd pc moniter with the pelican vga cheap ass from hong kong an it works flawlessly
all these issues discribed in this thread are user related due to your pc monitors being old an crappy or you dont no how to correct the gamma on your lcd screen if you bought a lcd screen with out gamma correction your a idiot! an deserve the crappy visuals you are getting
there is no problem here except the gamma is up 2 high , the contrast is through the roof an your all little kids who obviously dont have a fragging clue wtf u are talking about
playing xbox 360 on a ancient crt 93 monitor is bound to look like shit eva thought of that ? jackasses
al.so ther user that posted the pics off this site onto xbox.com is due to be susppended from xbox.com perminatly MS dont look to kindly apon xbox scene
Post by: Xombe on January 16, 2006, 04:10:00 AM
Enjoy the vacation, and please make good use of it. Otherwise, it could be extended to "foreva!"
Post by: Xombe on January 16, 2006, 06:07:00 AM
QUOTE
From KiLLa_App:
the problem is not with the xbox 360 it is with there pc monitors simple i work for MS you can reach me on xbox.com major nelson
if you dont understand what the problem is ask an we will help you , dont assume you no everything
your not even 20
the problem is not with the xbox 360 it is with there pc monitors simple i work for MS you can reach me on xbox.com major nelson
if you dont understand what the problem is ask an we will help you , dont assume you no everything
your not even 20
I don't know if that is meant to be a message to me personally or not. I'm going to have to assume not.
Post by: redwolf on January 16, 2006, 08:18:00 AM
QUOTE(Xombe @ Jan 16 2006, 03:14 PM)
I suppose I was wrong. X-S rules mean nothing to the elite:
I don't know if that is meant to be a message to me personally or not. I'm going to have to assume not.
lmao. if he works for M$ (did he say he's Major Nelson), then why the f**k he has a pelican VGA cable from Japan
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 16, 2006, 06:20:00 PM
QUOTE
From KiLLa_App:
the problem is not with the xbox 360 it is with there pc monitors simple i work for MS you can reach me on xbox.com major nelson
if you dont understand what the problem is ask an we will help you , dont assume you no everything
your not even 20
the problem is not with the xbox 360 it is with there pc monitors simple i work for MS you can reach me on xbox.com major nelson
if you dont understand what the problem is ask an we will help you , dont assume you no everything
your not even 20
Thank you for that.
Post by: Neted on January 16, 2006, 06:58:00 PM
I tested the cable with 2 TFT PC Monitors and 1 CRT (great Mitsubishi 21'' with SoG switch on 5-BNC inputs - RGB+HV or RGB-only with SoG).
I didn't have any luck with the VGA cable in any of the above monitors.
Foe-hammer I read your thoughts on xbox forums about SoG and the HV jumping to the Green signal. Have you tried this? But again, I don't think that's a SoG/not-SoG problem. As you said, the VGA cable has HV wiring and must work on every VGA monitor. The color space explanation (video-level, pc-level) fits much better on our crappy case, don't you think?
All I expect is a patch as soon as possible, the sharpness and clearance on a PC monitor are stunning but the washing-out bug ruins that all. What about the petition that was mentioned before?
Since my Mitsubishi has a SoG switch, I could test delivering signal through HD AV Cable (Component) which passes sync over Green (right?) and see the results. If I get the same bad washed-out picture, then it has nothing to do with SoG and we can safely conclude that Xbox 360 produces 16-235 levels in all cases and require a damn patch!
But, damn, I don't have right now RCA-to-BNC adaptors!!!
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 17, 2006, 03:04:00 AM
QUOTE(Neted @ Jan 16 2006, 07:05 PM)
I have the same washed out colors like you folks, with my crappy MS VGA cable I bought today.
I tested the cable with 2 TFT PC Monitors and 1 CRT (great Mitsubishi 21'' with SoG switch on 5-BNC inputs - RGB+HV or RGB-only with SoG).
I didn't have any luck with the VGA cable in any of the above monitors.
Foe-hammer I read your thoughts on xbox forums about SoG and the HV jumping to the Green signal. Have you tried this? But again, I don't think that's a SoG/not-SoG problem. As you said, the VGA cable has HV wiring and must work on every VGA monitor. The color space explanation (video-level, pc-level) fits much better on our crappy case, don't you think?
All I expect is a patch as soon as possible, the sharpness and clearance on a PC monitor are stunning but the washing-out bug ruins that all. What about the petition that was mentioned before?
Since my Mitsubishi has a SoG switch, I could test delivering signal through HD AV Cable (Component) which passes sync over Green (right?) and see the results. If I get the same bad washed-out picture, then it has nothing to do with SoG and we can safely conclude that Xbox 360 produces 16-235 levels in all cases and require a damn patch!
But, damn, I don't have right now RCA-to-BNC adaptors!!!
I've tried jumping the H&V sync wires to the green wire, but it did not work because i simply cannot just lay the H&V sync wires on the green wire, i have to first combine the H&V sync signal in a much more complicated way, then add it to the green.
Component does not even carry H&V sync in any form, whether it is SoG, composite sync, or seperate H&V sync.
I've desoldered the H&V sync wires from the 360 avip plug to see if the 360 also supported SoG. But unfortunetely the 360 does not; only seperate H&V sync.
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 17, 2006, 04:57:00 PM
Let us know what you find out.
Post by: Neted on January 17, 2006, 06:28:00 PM
-------------------
It seems you did not understand the problem I'm describing.
I'm saying I have a problem with my MS VGA Cable and you instruct me how to
configure my... Component HD Cable. You shall know that there are no 480p, 720p,
1080i settings over VGA Cable. These settings shows up only if the Component HD
Cable is attached on the Xbox360.
I don't want to use this cable. I want to use the MS VGA HD AV Cable with my PC-monitor.
As I said, I have all the settings configured correctly and the problem is caused probably
by a bug of the system. In case you want to instruct me again how to configure my resolution
this time, ok, feel free.
But I can assure you that the problem will still exist.
I really appreciate your willness to help me but I feel you can't do much but to send my email
to the top executives of technical support and inform me if there will be a patch or, AT LEAST, if
this is a known or not problem and what can I expect from your support.
Thank you,
XXXXX XXXXXXX
Greece
1/18/2006
-------------------
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 17, 2006, 08:07:00 PM
Post by: redwolf on January 18, 2006, 05:43:00 AM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Jan 18 2006, 11:10 AM)
Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to getting this fixed myself. Has anyone tried those transcoders, like the praised VD-Z3 to convert x360's component to VGA? Or, more importantly, does VD-Z3 output PC levels? I should think so, because it's designed for monitor use in the first place.
VD-Z3 costs about $70, and selling the VGA cable should cover some of the damage.
yeah i tried the vdigi transcoder (conjunction to Xbox360 component cable) and the image brightness are fine/normal. but VD-Z3 ONLY gives out 640x480, 1280x720 and 1900x1080, and with my LCD i was only able to view the 480p as my LCD doesn't support them resolutions.
but nevertheless, 480p with Xbox 360 VGA is washed out, compared to 480p via the VDigi box.
Post by: redwolf on January 18, 2006, 07:45:00 AM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Jan 18 2006, 03:51 PM)
Ok, so that's it, I'm placing my order for VDigi as it seems to be the easiest way to settle this without having to buy a new TV.
I don't feel like we're getting through to MS on this. Even if we get them to admit there is a problem, they will not probably fix it as they feel it's the problem with LCDs instead.
On a positive note my retailer just called and told me I can have my game changed.
make sure your monitor supports them resolutions. cos 480p is a bit pixilated
Post by: twistedsymphony on January 18, 2006, 07:52:00 AM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Jan 17 2006, 05:11 AM)
I've tried jumping the H&V sync wires to the green wire, but it did not work because i simply cannot just lay the H&V sync wires on the green wire, i have to first combine the H&V sync signal in a much more complicated way, then add it to the green.
Component does not even carry H&V sync in any form, whether it is SoG, composite sync, or seperate H&V sync.
I've desoldered the H&V sync wires from the 360 avip plug to see if the 360 also supported SoG. But unfortunetely the 360 does not; only seperate H&V sync.
Component carries a C-Sync on the Green wire...
H&V syncs need a combined circuit, but I'm fairly certain that once it's a C-Sync it can simply be added to to the green line (be it VGA, or Component).
RGB Scart has a C-sync line (it's the same pin as composite in the SCART pinout) Typically it's VERY weak but you may be able to use that if it's active when using the VGA jumper settings.
As for the washed out picture, has anyone tried making a cable with 22uF caps and 10k resistors to help clean it up?
like this:
[output from Xbox]->[22uF cap]->[10k resistor]->[monitor input]
you can also help adjust the signal by adding a trim pot between the signal and ground on the monitor side of the above circuit.
Anyone looking to do some video work ePanorama has a great resource: http://www.epanorama...eocircuits.html
Post by: twistedsymphony on January 18, 2006, 02:55:00 PM
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 18, 2006, 09:29:00 PM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Jan 18 2006, 07:59 AM)
Component carries a C-Sync on the Green wire...
H&V syncs need a combined circuit, but I'm fairly certain that once it's a C-Sync it can simply be added to to the green line (be it VGA, or Component).
RGB Scart has a C-sync line (it's the same pin as composite in the SCART pinout) Typically it's VERY weak but you may be able to use that if it's active when using the VGA jumper settings.
You're correct, component can carry a Composite sync on the green wire....which in itself is sync on green.
What i was referring to was that the 360 component cables does not carry any form of H or V sync. If it did (have c-sync on the green wire, ala. SoG), one could hook up a simple vga to 3 rca cable to the 360 component cable, and it would work via sync on green. Granted, whout pin 15, you would not have the different res option, all you would have was the component res (480p, 720p and 1080i). This is how i was able to play the original xbox on my pc monitor, with the vga bios. The xbox vga bios output SoG, where as the 360 does not.
Post by: twistedsymphony on January 19, 2006, 05:16:00 AM
QUOTE(Neted @ Jan 18 2006, 06:09 PM)
Having 0-255 levels (8bit) of brigthness for every color (red, green, blue), 255x255x255 (or 8bit x 8bit x 8bit = 24bit truecolor) we have 16.7million.
If we start from 16 to 235, we have 219levels = 219x219x219 = 10.5million colors starting from dark grey to almost white.
If we can't get marginal values of brightness (up to 255), we can't have vibrant colors.
I think you misunderstood my question. I get how to calculate it, but how did you measure it? Meaning how do you know we're starting with 16 to 235?
Post by: anttimonty on January 20, 2006, 08:17:00 AM
QUOTE(jizmo @ Dec 18 2005, 12:07 PM)
Well, I've heard some rumours about x360 VGA cable delivering bad image, but I was still flabbergasted when I got mine yesterday. Colors aren't anything like they are with the original component-cable, everything near-white is burnt to white and image is overally really washed out. It's sharper alright, but all the color / brightness issues make it look so lousy that it's useless to me.
Here's how it looks like
And the damn thing cost me $45. Damn I'm pissed off.
Has anyone tested any component to VGA transcoders, like VD-Z3, to test out if transcoded component would look better than the crappy VGA?
I just bought M$ VGA HD-AV cable and I have the exsact same problem the colors are washed out. No matter what I do to brightness or contrast or even change the color temp. The colors simply looks like shit
When I hook my computer to my Philips 200W6CS with vga cable the picture looks (almost like with DVI). Not to mention, I tried every resolution available on X360 and Halo 1 always said that the resolution is not supported by this game! Further more it isn't possible to use 1080i with this P O S cable.
Post by: anttimonty on January 29, 2006, 03:06:00 PM
I have also issued this problem to M$ with no repond from them
Everyone who has this problem should also issue it to M$ so that it will get noticed.
Email X360 HW support
Post by: (CC) on January 29, 2006, 04:08:00 PM
Its slightly lighter than my 21" CRT TV (480p) using the component cables, but that was a bit too dark IMO, id rather play it on my LCD.
Am I just plain wrong (untrained eye), or are some images coming out OK?
Post by: Mick Garvey on January 29, 2006, 07:37:00 PM
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 29, 2006, 11:28:00 PM
Post by: twistedsymphony on January 30, 2006, 01:03:00 PM
I know my projector has about 5 or 6 different options for colorspace, different ones respond different to the type of device I'm using it with... VGA typically looks best when it's set to "RGB"
Not sure how many devices let you fiddle with that but perhapse the VGA cable it set up to output in a particular colorspace and most monitors are setup to accecpt another.
Post by: redwolf on January 30, 2006, 01:14:00 PM
QUOTE
From : Xbox360_Email_HW_EN <[email protected]>
Sent : 30 January 2006 15:43:07
To : <redwolf4ever[at]hotmail.com>
Subject : RE: SRX1008382377ID - Xbox360 Hardware
Hello ******
Thank you for writing Xbox Customer Support!
I apologize for the inconvenience. I understand that
It sounds like this has been a very frustrating experience for you. After careful review of your issue, we have determined that it is best that you call the Xbox Customer Support number for better assistance.
Assistance by phone is available seven days a week.
1-800-4MY-XBOX (1-800-469-9269)
International (direct dial to U.S.): 425-635-7180
Hearing Impaired (TDD device): 1-866-740-9269 or 425-635-7102
Hours of operation (every day):
9:00 A.M. to 1:00 A.M. Eastern Time
6:00 A.M. to 10:00 P.M. Pacific Time
Sincerely,
JOHN
Xbox Customer Care Team
i guess "John" don't know jack
the reply email is just a default "template", probably didn't even read my message or just passsing all the work to their phone department plus, i told them i was from UK with a PAL Xbox 360, fucking noob gave me some US number
Post by: Foe-hammer on January 30, 2006, 07:03:00 PM
Nows the time for me to get a transcoder (x2vga2, or vd-z3) to compensate for MS's incompetance.
Post by: redwolf on January 30, 2006, 08:20:00 PM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Jan 31 2006, 04:10 AM)
With no vga fix in the update, it doesn't look like we'll be seeing one any time soon, or ever, from MS. Pisses me off.
if 10 Dutch people can make m$ update for their need, why can't they hear us
damn give us the dev kit, we can make better updates then that crap
Post by: zedaksis on February 09, 2006, 01:59:00 PM
QUOTE
Thank you for writing to Xbox regarding MS VGA adaptor.
I do apologize for the inconvenience.
To reset the display settings of the Xbox 360 console to the default settings, follow these steps:
1. Remove any discs from the disc tray.
2. Turn the console off.
3. Turn the console on.
Note If you are using an Xbox 360 Wireless Controller, turn the console on by using the Xbox Guide button on the controller. Make sure that you use the player 1 controller when you do this. The player 1 controller will have the upper-left quadrant light illuminated.
4. As the console starts, press and hold the Y button, and then pull the right trigger at the same time.
5. The Xbox Dashboard resets the display settings to the default settings, and then automatically restarts the console
In case you have other Xbox concerns, feel free to write back. We take feedback on Xbox and our Customer Service very seriously and review customer comments daily.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXX
Xbox360 customer Care Team
I do apologize for the inconvenience.
To reset the display settings of the Xbox 360 console to the default settings, follow these steps:
1. Remove any discs from the disc tray.
2. Turn the console off.
3. Turn the console on.
Note If you are using an Xbox 360 Wireless Controller, turn the console on by using the Xbox Guide button on the controller. Make sure that you use the player 1 controller when you do this. The player 1 controller will have the upper-left quadrant light illuminated.
4. As the console starts, press and hold the Y button, and then pull the right trigger at the same time.
5. The Xbox Dashboard resets the display settings to the default settings, and then automatically restarts the console
In case you have other Xbox concerns, feel free to write back. We take feedback on Xbox and our Customer Service very seriously and review customer comments daily.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXX
Xbox360 customer Care Team
Post by: Kernal69er on February 09, 2006, 08:11:00 PM
Post by: Topey327 on February 09, 2006, 08:31:00 PM
washed out colors is better than an endless loop of deaths because I can't see whats shooting me!
Post by: jxt on February 10, 2006, 02:22:00 AM
after a while you kinda dont notice it so much,
but little things like that eat away at me so im running it through my x2vga and its fine now
Post by: Topey327 on February 10, 2006, 02:55:00 PM
Post by: anttimonty on February 15, 2006, 03:18:00 PM
Post by: Mick Garvey on February 15, 2006, 10:36:00 PM
Post by: twistedsymphony on February 16, 2006, 05:54:00 AM
QUOTE(barabis @ Feb 16 2006, 04:11 AM)
1st of all let me say hi on my first post.
I'm about to buy a 360 and an HD tv to go with it and I'm quite concerned having read this topic. I'm also a bit confused, is it the case that theres no way to achieve an optimal HD output?
Is the component HD output too dark and the VGA HD output washes out the colours? Or does this only affect certain types of tvs?
Having read the thread it does seem that there seems to be a problem with VGA that MS refuses to recognise.
I dont mind spending extra on a tv to get the optimal HD output that the 360 promises.
The Component HD output's are great (better then the Xbox 1 component outputs IMO) it's just the VGA output that's washed out and only on certain monitors.
Post by: barabis on February 16, 2006, 06:59:00 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://forums.xbox-s...dpost&p=3150065
Indeed, I'm one of the people who posted in that topic and has a 'DTV' setting.
Basically, I have an LG 26LX2R LCD HDTV, which accepts VGA through the DVI-I port. Both the DVI/VGA and HDMI port have separate 'PC' and 'DTV' modes. I'm not 100% sure what the actual difference is, I'm told they use a different colourspace and different amounts of overscan, but setting the port to 'PC' on anything but a PC results in a washed image, whereas DTV results in a correct image.
It's strange. My TV has a native resolution of 1366x768, so I planned to use the 1360x768 option and avoid upscaling. However, my TV detected this resolution as a PC resolution (even in DTV mode) and the results were a washed image. This also happened in 1280x768 and all other resolutions.
However. Setting my TV to DTV mode and sticking to 720p resulted in a correct image with no washed output whatsoever. VGA does seem a little lighter at first, but I reckon the Component output may be too dark. You can literally SEE more when using the VGA cable.
Anyway, anyone who has an LCD TV which lets them choose between PC and DTV mode (or it might be called 'AV' mode), either from the menu or via the service menu, should give it a go, and stick to 720p.
I reckon the washed output is caused by the TV taking the 360 output as a Pc output and using PC colourspace.
Post by: Foe-hammer on February 16, 2006, 04:25:00 PM
But good info, none the less.
Post by: prankfurter on February 16, 2006, 05:56:00 PM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Feb 16 2006, 07:32 PM)
Another site?.....you linked to this exact same thread, just on an earlier page.
But good info, none the less.haha, made my day
Post by: Foe-hammer on February 16, 2006, 09:28:00 PM
QUOTE
Thank you for writing to Xbox regarding MS VGA adaptor.
I do apologize for the inconvenience.
To reset the display settings of the Xbox 360 console to the default settings, follow these steps:
1. Remove any discs from the disc tray.
2. Turn the console off.
3. Turn the console on.
Note If you are using an Xbox 360 Wireless Controller, turn the console on by using the Xbox Guide button on the controller. Make sure that you use the player 1 controller when you do this. The player 1 controller will have the upper-left quadrant light illuminated.
4. As the console starts, press and hold the Y button, and then pull the right trigger at the same time.
5. The Xbox Dashboard resets the display settings to the default settings, and then automatically restarts the console
In case you have other Xbox concerns, feel free to write back. We take feedback on Xbox and our Customer Service very seriously and review customer comments daily.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXX
Xbox360 customer Care Team
I do apologize for the inconvenience.
To reset the display settings of the Xbox 360 console to the default settings, follow these steps:
1. Remove any discs from the disc tray.
2. Turn the console off.
3. Turn the console on.
Note If you are using an Xbox 360 Wireless Controller, turn the console on by using the Xbox Guide button on the controller. Make sure that you use the player 1 controller when you do this. The player 1 controller will have the upper-left quadrant light illuminated.
4. As the console starts, press and hold the Y button, and then pull the right trigger at the same time.
5. The Xbox Dashboard resets the display settings to the default settings, and then automatically restarts the console
In case you have other Xbox concerns, feel free to write back. We take feedback on Xbox and our Customer Service very seriously and review customer comments daily.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXX
Xbox360 customer Care Team
Tried it as well, and all it did was reset the the resolution i was currently using to 640x480. The colors, constrast, and black levels did not change.
Post by: goodl on February 20, 2006, 06:59:00 AM
Post by: reaper2380 on February 20, 2006, 08:56:00 AM
Post by: mark_in_2k on February 21, 2006, 08:43:00 AM
I took a look through my colour settings for the VGA input but couldn't find anything that would change the PC colour mode to video colour mode.
I found a service menu code from another site, so I took a look at that and there was an option for a colour calibration test. So I ran this and immediately the colour became a lot more "punchy"...perhaps too punchy as the very dark greys now look black. I'm going to run my colour calibration DVD soon to tweak the colour, but at least I don't have a problem with the washed out look now.
Post by: twistedsymphony on February 28, 2006, 07:56:00 PM
QUOTE(Joshua Wood @ Feb 28 2006, 09:43 PM)
...
And if MS won't fix anything, then all the most reason to hack the s*** out of the 360 so we can fix all the broken things
... is there really any other reason?
Post by: mattyj25 on March 03, 2006, 02:54:00 PM
So,.... like everyone else is saying.. the scaler in the 360 is crap. Set the rez to the native output of the 360 and let the tv do the scaling.
Post by: jizmo on March 06, 2006, 01:45:00 PM
I lowered it a little and the game looks now wonderful, blacks are blacks, colors more vivid and there's not a sign of washed-out picture. It really makes a world of an difference if you're having problems with too bright image.
Time to send those e-mails to the developers to ask this feature to future games. Don't bother with MS, they surely aren't listening to us on this.
Post by: Jedigaz on March 07, 2006, 03:11:00 PM
Thought i`d just mention that i parted my hard earned today to buy joytech`s kit for £14.99 from virgin megastores and once i set it up..very easy to do i will add.....my first reaction was WOW..and that was only fight night demo..
Also played a bit of Pes 5 from konami through the monitor and even that was 100 times better visually...
not all doom and gloom...no problems for me......xbox 360 rocks....
Post by: Foe-hammer on March 26, 2006, 08:44:00 PM
The problem is not the sync seperation, but the Video color level the 360 uses, instead of PC levels......damn you, MS
.
Post by: DaForce on March 26, 2006, 10:36:00 PM
I found a semi fix in 2 of my games. PDZ and Kameo, they have brightness controlls and putting it to LCD makes it alot better. And playing with monitor controlls, well iots basically pefect now.
I just wish PGR3 wouldnt stretch the damn screen so much!!!.. have to keep changing the monitor settings to compensate.
Post by: urmydizire on April 07, 2006, 03:35:00 PM
i think ms wants us to buy hdtv or juust has a hard time making the software for it to correct the issue i know it aint easy programmming but if they are doing this on purpose i hope they get what they deserve or the person whos behind this all who has there nose up in the air anyways will see things like this dont get waived oh by the way make sure your monito has warmed up for atleast 20 miniuts before playing 360 it helps alot
Post by: rio300 on April 07, 2006, 03:45:00 PM
Post by: Wiggin78 on April 19, 2006, 03:14:00 PM
Post by: DaForce on April 21, 2006, 12:43:00 AM
Kameo for one has settings for LCD, DLP..etc..etc.. (dont know if its always been there as i have only had my box for about a month)
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 21, 2006, 06:02:00 AM
QUOTE(DaForce @ Apr 21 2006, 12:50 AM)
FYI some games now have good brightness and contrast settings to which fixed ALOT of the problems that you guys might be having.
Kameo for one has settings for LCD, DLP..etc..etc.. (dont know if its always been there as i have only had my box for about a month)
The setting in some MS games that have the (LCD, DLP, etc.) setups does not fix anything. They are just preset brightness settings that can be done manually from the games brightness bar (which is much more accurate and customizable then the presets). All it does is adjust the brightness bar level that is in the game, that you can do manually. Nothing more. It does not solve the washout colors or contrast problems.
Games like Tomb Raider that have individual brightness and contrast adjusters do a lot more to solve the problem.
Post by: DaForce on April 21, 2006, 07:21:00 PM
Either way, that in conjunction with the SuperBright turned on.. it makes the colors much richer and vibrant without ruining the black or making it washed out.. Pretty sweet IMO.
Anyway, thanks for cleaing it up.
Post by: skadollax on April 27, 2006, 06:11:00 PM
QUOTE(Wiggin78 @ Apr 19 2006, 10:21 PM)
I'm glad this thread told me it isn't a setting problem. People at the AVS forum were positive it must be my settings. I have a 50" Samsung 1080p DLP and VGA looks terrible. Component looks 10x as good. My problem is this TV has lag because of the video processing. It is really noticeable with FPS and Racing Games. VGA eliminates the lag but then I get a shitty washed out picture. I really hope MS can fix this with an update. If not I guess I'll have to live with the lag.
I know your pain.
I have tried explaining this to many people but nobody seems to understand.
I have also tested various LCD's and most\if not all experienced some kind of lag when runninh 1080i via component.
VGA for me is just plain ugly!
Been keen on giving a transcoded component signal a try but just haven't got round to picking up a device.
QUOTE(nellus @ Apr 21 2006, 01:19 PM)
Ive been using the VGA for a while now, and im not to impressed with it so far (to many problems, washout been one of them)
So, ive decided to try the Vdigi Transcoder, see if that can help. My monitor doesn't have component inputs so this is the only solution I have. Apart from hopeing it fixes the colour issues, im keeping my fingers crossed the 50hz Halo etc problem will be fixed. I might lose some of the sharpness VGA offers, but its not enough to keep me using it.
I'll let you know how I get on when it arrives if anyone is interested.
I'd love to know the your results as I've been interested in doing something similar but for a slightly different reason!
Post by: nellus on April 28, 2006, 01:53:00 AM
QUOTE(skadollax @ Apr 28 2006, 12:18 AM)
Been keen on giving a transcoded component signal a try but just haven't got round to picking up a device.
I'd love to know the your results as I've been interested in doing something similar but for a slightly different reason!
I'd love to know the your results as I've been interested in doing something similar but for a slightly different reason!
I received my VD-Z3 and plugged it in, but the results werent to great im afraid. It might be my monitor, but im not sure. At 720p the screen didnt sit in the middle, but over to one side and down, no matter what dip switches I tried. I was also getting white lines along the top, very frustrating. The colours were more vibrant though, and it did look more like I expected it to (the text was a little sharper on the dash). The major problem though was that it kept re-setting itself every minute. The screen would go black, the picture would come back and the monitor would auto adjust. 1080i worked, but it was a very fuzzy picture.
I'll stick to the VGA for now, and hope MS will correct some of the problems with it in their future updates. Fingers crossed!
Post by: vERdugox on May 01, 2006, 09:23:00 AM
However it works, and works fine (i tested it on a friend´s xbox), now, anybody knows if the problem could be in part on the cable itself???, since i´ve been reading posts of people who has a pelican cable or something...
Thanks a lot for your att.
BTW: excuse me for my bad english (Venezuelan xbox-scene-R here)
vERdugox
Post by: Creamy Goodness on March 25, 2007, 03:49:00 AM
Post by: Nemo[ on March 25, 2007, 07:08:00 AM
My guess is that they won't fix it (the same problem as 1280x1024 is a 5:4 aspect ratio not 4:3 on VGA). They just "inform" new developers that they should add optional gamma/contrast settings.
Post by: Nemo[ on April 01, 2007, 08:23:00 PM
QUOTE
Answering other questions, both Xbox 360 Elite and current Xbox 360 units will have a spring (console) update which adds support for different video levels for VGA output ("7.5 IRE vs 0"). And as someone mentioned, using this setting you should be able to use computer monitors in addition to TVs with resolutions all the way up to 1080p with high fidelity and no issues with HDCP handshaking
Post by: jizmo on May 09, 2007, 04:51:00 PM
Look at 'em colors. About the time
Post by: Foe-hammer on May 09, 2007, 08:27:00 PM
QUOTE(jizmo @ May 9 2007, 05:27 PM)
After complaing about this issue for the last 1,5 years, I am happy to say that it's all good now, thanks to the spring 2007 update.
Look at 'em colors. About the time
Hear, hear!
The "Expanded" level setting is the "PC level" setting that we all have been waiting for for 1.5 yrs.
Now why they have an "Intermediate" level, is beyond me and pointless imo.