Post by: Xbox-Scene on April 01, 2007, 07:01:00 PM
Quote
Full Story: avsforum.com Thanks to JP for the link. |
Post by: grim_d on April 01, 2007, 06:19:00 PM
Post by: brywalker on April 01, 2007, 06:33:00 PM
That is HORRIBLE news.
The whole point to going HDMI (besides 1080p output for HD DVD and DVD) was to get high def audio. But it won't output DD+ or TrueHD (which I find odd...) and if it sends PCM it only does 2.0 (a firmware update can fix that).
Get on the ball, guys, you are making HD DVD look bad.
This post has been edited by brywalker: Apr 2 2007, 01:36 AM
Post by: sicknasty413 on April 01, 2007, 06:34:00 PM
Post by: lostboyz on April 01, 2007, 06:41:00 PM
QUOTE(sicknasty413 @ Apr 1 2007, 07:41 PM) 
Not that I really know the differences between 1.2 and 1.3...But clearly, 1.3 is higher..which means, it clearly must be better..so in conclusion; I'd like to piss and moan.
+1
Post by: capboy210 on April 01, 2007, 06:42:00 PM
. Comes in a silver case with a 200 GB hard drive for only 600$ 
Post by: grim_d on April 01, 2007, 06:44:00 PM
@capboy, am i tripping or did those pills change colour?
This post has been edited by grim_d: Apr 2 2007, 01:45 AM
Post by: capboy210 on April 01, 2007, 06:52:00 PM
QUOTE(grim_d @ Apr 1 2007, 07:51 PM)
doesnt this only really affect people who wants audio through hdmi? which is even less than people who want to use hdmi in the first place. I mean i only JUST got surround, so im quite happy with optical.
@capboy, am i tripping or did those pills change colour?
Nope I changed it, if you also noticed I changed the PS3 baby pose. I will probably change the pill colors and the babies pose monthly just to keep things interesting.
This is the old one:
On another note I have a version with a gun to the babies head, but it was a bit too crude to use for a sig.
Post by: Altima NEO on April 01, 2007, 07:21:00 PM
v_v Seriously MS, get with it.
And another Spring update? Oh boy, you guys remember what happened last year...
Post by: Chasym on April 01, 2007, 07:37:00 PM
Post by: Achtung on April 01, 2007, 08:02:00 PM
Post by: 0794 on April 01, 2007, 08:02:00 PM
Post by: Mr Invader on April 01, 2007, 08:13:00 PM
Post by: elitegamer360 on April 01, 2007, 08:17:00 PM
This post has been edited by elitegamer360: Apr 2 2007, 03:19 AM
Post by: Namarrgon on April 01, 2007, 08:38:00 PM
However, not supporting any more than two PCM channels is a big deal. Not only would it eliminate high-quality surround, it'd eliminate HDMI's cabling advantage by requiring a separate optical link too. I can't see any hardware reason for this, or software either, unless they just haven't gotten around to implementing it yet.
Does it apply to games too? That'd really suck.
Post by: Landlocked on April 01, 2007, 09:34:00 PM
Post by: mlmadmax on April 01, 2007, 09:50:00 PM
I bet in a future build of the elite they will us 1.3.
Post by: Namarrgon on April 01, 2007, 10:18:00 PM
HD-DVD movies might in theory allow for more than 24 bit colour (not that a console could use it if they did) but AFAIK the compression schemes they use currently are based on subsampled YUV, and actually contain less colour information than the uncompressed RGB from games.
Post by: jeff10 on April 01, 2007, 10:21:00 PM
Is it saying that right now with my current xbox 360 i use the optical cable and i get 5.1 surround sound.
but...
if i buy the elite and use hdmi, i get 2.1 surround.
Post by: Namarrgon on April 01, 2007, 11:37:00 PM
Perhaps the only limitation here is that the HD-DVD player software cannot currently decode TrueHD and DD+, and so will only output ordinary DD/DTS/stereo PCM. If so, they can easily enough add the decoder via a software update, the Elite will output it via multichannel PCM, and we can all relax.
HDMI 1.3 support is a red herring - it's entirely irrelevant, so long as the player can (or will) decode & output to plain old multichannel PCM, like it's supposed to.
Post by: feflicker on April 01, 2007, 11:46:00 PM
In other news, this information was actually in the original article about HDMI (the fact it was 1.2 and not 1.3), so I don't know why this is "news" now?...
Post by: namrrac on April 02, 2007, 02:18:00 AM
Microsoft:
Open source the 360, and they will come.
Post by: Martinchris23 on April 02, 2007, 02:20:00 AM
QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Apr 2 2007, 07:18 AM)
FeFlicker, go search "Analog Sunset", you'll discover that TV brands agreed on limiting analog inputs capabilities in the future, by 2010 new TV set should have only component capaible of 480p/576i and by 2013 there will be no component at all.
So you've to go to a digital interface if you're planning to sell XBox360 after 2010, that's the reason in going to HDMI.
2013 is a long way away my, my friend. They'll be another Xbox console by this time and definitely another PlayStation (Sony already announced that a 'PS4' would be released after 2010).
The 360 Elite will be cheap to pick up (which resolves the whole analog problem) - your beloved launch 360 console will either be spare parts or stored in a cupboard somewhere!
Have you a link for the TV brands agreement to scrap analogue input by 2013?
Post by: bucko on April 02, 2007, 07:28:00 AM
Post by: grim_d on April 02, 2007, 07:36:00 AM
QUOTE(bucko @ Apr 2 2007, 02:35 PM)
I believe there is no 1.3 HDMI HD TV's in the UK yet, I could be wrong, maybe thats there reasoning, it's not so popular yet. Hopefully the Elite will be 1.3 by the time it hits Europe and 1.3 TV's will be cheap as chips.
at the rate tattie prices are rising itl soon be "chips are cheap as hdtv's"
Post by: epsilon72 on April 02, 2007, 08:25:00 AM
Screw the elite...
EDIT: Now I'm a whiner too
Maybe I'll just get an "un-elite" 360 with a Benq drive to play GHII on, now that I know HDMI will not benefit me at all. (tv supports 1080p through component, vga, DVI, and HDMI)
Post by: thax on April 02, 2007, 09:17:00 AM
QUOTE(itchy @ Apr 2 2007, 03:56 PM)
Well it seems like the 1.2 HDMI is a M$ bandaid solution only for those TV's that won't support 1080P over component, but will through their HDMI. There apparently are some TV's with this limitation.
HDMI 1.2 is pretty useless for people that want 1080p over component since it only supports 1080p30, or 30fps.QUOTE
Owning a PS3 & Sony's HDMI 1.3 STR-DG1000 reciever, I do enjoy watching movies in uncompressed linear PCM 5.1. Resistance Fall of Man does sound better than any other game I've played... especially when bullets fly over your head.
The STR-DG1000 costs about 800 dollars and only has 2 HDMI inputs. I guess since there really isn't many HDMI 1.3 devices on the market there isn't much choice, but in my opinion HDMI isn't worth the money at this point. It is too expensive for the relative quality increase coupled with the problems that accompany the new technology.Post by: zombie4rave on April 02, 2007, 12:51:00 PM
QUOTE
Yes, HDMI 1.2 allows uncompressed PCM. But the 360 data path to that bridge is not wide enough to support it.
So basically it looks like they've coupled the HDMI audio path to the same one they use for optical audio so it carries the same restrictions (1.5Mbps max/2 channel PCM ). Apparently they decided that adding an upgraded audio path for HDMI was not worth the extra design cost. It really is disappointing to hear. I have a PS3 connected to an HDMI Denon receiver. The uncompressed PCM and Dolby TrueHD audio on blu ray discs is excellent. Clearly besting the 1.5Mbps max DTS you can pull out of optical. If you've got the right gear to take advantage of it, high resolution audio really is very impressive.
Post by: thax on April 02, 2007, 01:50:00 PM
HDMI 1.2 easily has enough bandwidth for 1080p60 even at 24 bit color.
Post by: epsilon72 on April 02, 2007, 02:19:00 PM
QUOTE(zombie4rave @ Apr 2 2007, 11:58 AM)
There seems to be a lot of bad information going around in this thread. I suggest that anyone interested in this topic check out a few threads on the AVS forum. This one - Why you don't need HMDI 1.3 and this one discussing PCM and receivers. HDMI 1.1 is all that is required for 1080P video and up to 8 channels of PCM audio as well as the standard legacy DD/DTS.
The following is a quote from Amir at Microsoft in the Industry Insiders thread (pg.111) on the 360 and advanced audio/PCM output
So basically it looks like they've coupled the HDMI audio path to the same one they use for optical audio so it carries the same restrictions (1.5Mbps max/2 channel PCM ). Apparently they decided that adding an upgraded audio path for HDMI was not worth the extra design cost. It really is disappointing to hear. I have a PS3 connected to an HDMI Denon receiver. The uncompressed PCM and Dolby TrueHD audio on blu ray discs is excellent. Clearly besting the 1.5Mbps max DTS you can pull out of optical. If you've got the right gear to take advantage of it, high resolution audio really is very impressive.
The following is a quote from Amir at Microsoft in the Industry Insiders thread (pg.111) on the 360 and advanced audio/PCM output
So basically it looks like they've coupled the HDMI audio path to the same one they use for optical audio so it carries the same restrictions (1.5Mbps max/2 channel PCM ). Apparently they decided that adding an upgraded audio path for HDMI was not worth the extra design cost. It really is disappointing to hear. I have a PS3 connected to an HDMI Denon receiver. The uncompressed PCM and Dolby TrueHD audio on blu ray discs is excellent. Clearly besting the 1.5Mbps max DTS you can pull out of optical. If you've got the right gear to take advantage of it, high resolution audio really is very impressive.
^This guy knows what he's talking about
I frequently point HDMI noobies to those exact same avsforum threads (the two receiver ones).
I personally think adding HDMI without changing the audio capabilities of the unit is a really dumb move, but that's Microsoft's decision. I guess my PS3 will be the only console to really take advantage of my receiver (also a HDMI Denon) for the next few years-
But on the bright side, this means I can get a "regular" 360 for cheaper than the "7331" one, and use the VGA cable that I already have (good thing I kept it).
It's still a good thing I sold my other one, because it had strangely loud case fans and a jet engine T/S drive
Anyone else think this move is another nail in the coffin for HD-DVD?
Post by: mksoftware on April 02, 2007, 02:52:00 PM
Post by: Mr Invader on April 02, 2007, 07:08:00 PM
Post by: Morlok8k on April 02, 2007, 07:35:00 PM
QUOTE
Answering other questions, both Xbox 360 Elite and current Xbox 360 units will have a spring (console) update which adds support for different video levels for VGA output ("7.5 IRE vs 0"). And as someone mentioned, using this setting you should be able to use computer monitors in addition to TVs with resolutions all the way up to 1080p with high fidelity and no issues with HDCP handshaking. So for current users, I highly recommend trying this update with your VGA connection to see if it does the job for you.
this will fix all the VGA washed out problems that people have! now i dont have to hear about people whining about their crappy TV's that dont support 0 IRE!
Post by: JustDanMI on April 03, 2007, 05:41:00 AM
Next, the reason M$ didn't use 1.3 is a couple of reasons. 1. At the time of devolpment, they didn't have access to the hardware and specs of HDMI 1.3 like Sony did. Sony is a founder of HDMI and M$ is only a partner using it, so Sony has had access to the specs before M$. Also, the 360 wasn't built internally to be able to utilize the advance audio signal transfer to the HDMI jack inside of the 360. So basically, the 360, as of now, is unable to utilize HDMI 1.3, even if it wanted to.
You can still get 7.1 surround sound with your HDMI 1.2. And in the spring update, they're supposed to be addressing alot of the Audio issues with the 360. As Zombie4Rav pointed out, it's the 360 itself that can't handle the PCM, hence, no need for HDMI 1.3.
If you want to see where I got all of this info, just go to the link that started this whole thread. In the AVS forums, if you continue reading Amirm's comments, he discusses all of this further into the AVS forums. He kept saying to wait until the Spring Update, that it was going to have some higher end sound improvements and they were also addressing some of the video problems people were having with various LCD TV's.
Post by: mercury187 on April 03, 2007, 12:27:00 PM
QUOTE(zombie4rave @ Apr 2 2007, 11:58 AM)
I have a PS3 connected to an HDMI Denon receiver. The uncompressed PCM and Dolby TrueHD audio on blu ray discs is excellent.
what reciever do you have? what model number please?
Post by: zombie4rave on April 03, 2007, 12:54:00 PM
QUOTE
what reciever do you have? what model number please?
It's a Denon 2307CI connected to a Klipsch Reference series 6.1 speaker setup. I'm using the Denon mostly as a preamp. The receiver only powers the rear surround channel. Everything else is fed by a 5 channel Parasound amp. I was able to find a good deal the receiver and picked it up to hold me over until the new models come out with HDMI 1.3 and built in decoding of the new surround formats. Nothing decodes DTS Master right now which is found on just about any bluray movie from Fox.
Post by: mercury187 on April 03, 2007, 01:42:00 PM
QUOTE(zombie4rave @ Apr 3 2007, 12:01 PM)
It's a Denon 2307CI connected to a Klipsch Reference series 6.1 speaker setup. I'm using the Denon mostly as a preamp. The receiver only powers the rear surround channel. Everything else is fed by a 5 channel Parasound amp. I was able to find a good deal the receiver and picked it up to hold me over until the new models come out with HDMI 1.3 and built in decoding of the new surround formats. Nothing decodes DTS Master right now which is found on just about any bluray movie from Fox.
thanks, I was looking for a good reciever to get some day, this should do the trick
Post by: epsilon72 on April 04, 2007, 11:00:00 AM
QUOTE(mercury187 @ Apr 3 2007, 12:49 PM)
thanks, I was looking for a good reciever to get some day, this should do the trick
I recommend the Denon 2307ci too -- lowest priced receiver that's -as future proof as you can get without HDMI 1.3 (which isn't needed anyways)
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 04, 2007, 11:23:00 AM
QUOTE(Morlok8k @ Apr 2 2007, 07:42 PM)
anybody read this?
this will fix all the VGA washed out problems that people have! now i dont have to hear about people whining about their crappy TV's that dont support 0 IRE!
No doubt. This is HUGE news for vga, and the fix we have been waiting for for a year and half; what the hell took them so long? Well at least they acknowledged there was a problem and actually are going to fix it.
So when is this 'spring update' anyway?
Post by: Morlok8k on April 07, 2007, 02:22:00 AM
i'm just sick of people complaining on the forums. it's not really the xbox, as it is displaying it at the correct standard (0 IRE, which is a PC's standard colorspace) - but peoples TV's that dont accept the PC standard - and then they complain it's the cables fault...
Post by: JustDanMI on April 07, 2007, 05:09:00 AM
QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Apr 4 2007, 01:30 PM)
So when is this 'spring update' anyway?
There's a rumor that it's coming out May 7th. Here's the link:
http://www.engadget....-update-leaked/