Post by: Xbox-Scene on July 30, 2007, 07:03:00 PM
DVD size limiting Project Gotham Racing 4 Posted by XanTium | July 30 20:27 EST | News Category: Xbox360 |
| From gamers-creed.com: Quote
Full Story: gamers-creed.com |
Post by: stopit33 on July 30, 2007, 06:37:00 PM
Post by: Heet on July 30, 2007, 06:40:00 PM
Post by: theMetalEdge on July 30, 2007, 06:41:00 PM
Granted, most games may easily fit on one dual layer DVD, we're about 2 years into the life of the Xbox 360 and developers are starting the feel the need for a higher capacity medium.
Would be nice to have an integrated HD-DVD or BluRay player.
Post by: Heet on July 30, 2007, 06:45:00 PM
Post by: feflicker on July 30, 2007, 06:50:00 PM
Don't blame the fact that you can't fit your game on the DVD9 format on the size, blame the CODE, and ultimately the CODER.
EDIT: How much do you want to bet the disc is packed with bloated pre-rendedered cinematics at maximum resolution and bitrate? LOL.
This post has been edited by feflicker: Jul 31 2007, 01:51 AM
Post by: slipstream on July 30, 2007, 06:53:00 PM
Post by: Heet on July 30, 2007, 06:53:00 PM
Ya ive heard all of that (and I believe it) but if the dev wont do it because its too much work to fit it in there, maybe its time to up the disk size.
I see your side but if its time to accommodate game makers.....I mean I want that stuff in PGR4. And I dont want it 2 years from now while they're trying to squeeze data.
This post has been edited by Heet: Jul 31 2007, 01:54 AM
Post by: ethanknepp on July 30, 2007, 06:54:00 PM
Post by: FCTE on July 30, 2007, 06:58:00 PM
This really blows, what about the future of 360 games? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
I guess I should start building a new gaming PC.
This post has been edited by FCTE: Jul 31 2007, 02:09 AM
Post by: skEwb on July 30, 2007, 06:59:00 PM
QUOTE(ethanknepp @ Jul 30 2007, 07:54 PM) 
the 360 is already starting to cripple .... if PGR4 is having trouble fitting on DL discs then how the hell does Halo3 fit on DL discs ?
You mean Halo 1 with new levels.
Post by: xcalixxryderx on July 30, 2007, 07:04:00 PM
Post by: popley on July 30, 2007, 07:09:00 PM
Post by: tabsaid on July 30, 2007, 07:10:00 PM
QUOTE(FCTE @ Jul 30 2007, 08:58 PM)
I don't understand why MS just doesn't use the HD DVD format for games. It looks like Bluray is going to win the format war for movies, so maybe MS should buy off HD DVD and use it for games. Maybe the current 360s with a patch could utilize the USB HD DVD player for games. I don't know if the USB may be too much of a bottleneck or not.
Then they better give me and everyone else a free HD-DVD drive. Or my 400$ console will really be obsolete. Now you can see why this isn't an option. Should have been built in from launch, too late now.
This post has been edited by tabsaid: Jul 31 2007, 02:15 AM
Post by: [TR] on July 30, 2007, 06:36:00 PM
QUOTE(skEwb @ Jul 31 2007, 01:59 AM) 
You mean Halo 1 with new levels.
And that's 10% of each level repeated 10 times.
I bet the box will read "Enhanced with Super Compressed Expansive Levels".
They could fit it on a CD of they wanted to, but those HD cutscenes are a bitch.
If this were Sony news I guess this thread would already be about 5x fuller of "I knew it. Sony sucks".
Not that I think MS sucks for this. It's their call, and it wasn't a really bad one.
My 360 overheating, now that's a bad call on their part.
Post by: FCTE on July 30, 2007, 06:37:00 PM
QUOTE(Heet @ Jul 30 2007, 07:53 PM)
I see your side but if its time to accommodate game makers.....I mean I want that stuff in PGR4.
Agreed, essentially game makers are artists. I want to receive the game in it's entirety like they envisioned it to be, not crippled because of the stupid DVD format.
Post by: Havok on July 30, 2007, 06:51:00 PM
QUOTE(slipstream @ Jul 30 2007, 08:53 PM)
diffirent textures for Day and Night? really? THAT seems like a waste-of-space to me, especially as he later says they will just use diffirent lighting instead (isnt that the diffience in real life?) other games (MMO's, Fable, Elder Scroll) all change from day to night without loading new textures, why cant a racing game?
Because they are probably were going to have lights turn on in cities etc..
Post by: Havok on July 30, 2007, 06:53:00 PM
QUOTE(xcalixxryderx @ Jul 30 2007, 09:04 PM)
well they better do somthin cause i would hate to see em usin 2 disks like some of the ps1 games
I was just about to say... They can just put it on two discs.. whats the big deal...
When you get to a certain level in your career it says... "Please put in dics two to continue"
The game can have overlap so you are never swapping and swap seamlessly from disc 1 to disc 2 just the first time.
Post by: slipstream on July 30, 2007, 06:58:00 PM
QUOTE(Havok @ Jul 31 2007, 02:27 AM)
Because they are probably were going to have lights turn on in cities etc..
I dont see how this would be an issue with textures, since the other games I mentioned work fine with using lights at night.
(not trying to attack you or anything, I just dont really understand why you would need new textures for lighting changes. Oh, and Crackdown does it, which has light-up building, again, without diffirent textures)
Post by: illiteratePoet on July 30, 2007, 07:22:00 PM
QUOTE(ethanknepp @ Jul 30 2007, 07:27 PM)
with xbox 360 limited to 8.5GBs for a game unless Microsoft does something, say hello to more Sony Exclusives with pretty unlimited space for developers from blue rays 25GBs but this wont set in for another few years ...
Actually we will more likely see increasingly stripped down games because the 360 has a larger install base and devs will want to cater to the most people to make the most money. Basically the 360's limited capacity is dragging the average quality of games down. The 360 has been largely a disappointment for me (I don't own a PS3 as it currently has NO games that interest me). I think the last time I played my Wii was in January...o well back to PC
.
Post by: PandaExpress on July 30, 2007, 07:25:00 PM
QUOTE(tabsaid @ Jul 31 2007, 02:10 AM)
Then they better give me and everyone else a free HD-DVD drive. Or my 400$ console will really be obsolete. Now you can see why this isn't an option. Should have been built in from launch, too late now.
If it was built in from launch day then you would have paid $600 to $700, and that would make 99% of the people cry its too expensive.
I would still like to see a $600 version with HdDvD, 160gig HDD
HDMI wireless nic and fixed rrod
and games should come in HD or DVD format (same game on 2 dvd or 1 HDdvd) like PC you can buy a CD or dvd version of most games.
I think that would fix the dvd limitation problem
Post by: quarky42 on July 30, 2007, 07:25:00 PM
Post by: 0794 on July 30, 2007, 07:35:00 PM
QUOTE(feflicker @ Jul 30 2007, 07:50 PM)
We've been through this, DVD9 is plenty of space. The problem comes in when developers don't want to spend the extra time/money to fully optimize their code and media support files. I guarantee they could fit it all if they took the time to optimize, they just don't want to do that when they get next to nothing for that extra time in return...
Don't blame the fact that you can't fit your game on the DVD9 format on the size, blame the CODE, and ultimately the CODER.
EDIT: How much do you want to bet the disc is packed with bloated pre-rendedered cinematics at maximum resolution and bitrate? LOL.
exactly, laziness permeates all levels of American society...
sure blame MS when you can't use your brain to code smart enough...
Post by: thecowsays on July 30, 2007, 07:42:00 PM
Post by: edwinmcdunlap on July 30, 2007, 08:43:00 PM
QUOTE(quarky42 @ Jul 30 2007, 09:01 PM)
How about they offer new levels to download via Live to HDD.... no HDD is required to play the main game, but if you want all the spiffy levels they have to offer you should get a HDD. Simple. Effective. Levels would load faster off the HDD than the DVD anyway.
That would work
DLC
Post by: Mr007 on July 30, 2007, 08:56:00 PM
People who say ps3 is better because of bluray are retards.Ps3 has games on bluray but it still installs most of the games on to the harddrive cause the bluray drive is so dam freaking slow.
Post by: Lush on July 30, 2007, 08:57:00 PM
Post by: XHN_SCRAPY on July 30, 2007, 09:17:00 PM
Post by: yaazz on July 30, 2007, 10:34:00 PM
Although this would give the annoyance of having to switch discs to switch tracks. And all of the cars would have to be on both discs, so it might be more of a hassle then its worth.
Either way, PGR4 looks awesome so I dont care
Post by: luther349 on July 30, 2007, 11:13:00 PM
QUOTE(FCTE @ Jul 31 2007, 02:58 AM)
I don't understand why MS just doesn't use the HD DVD format for games. It looks like Bluray is going to win the format war for movies, so maybe MS should buy off HD DVD and use it for games. Maybe the current 360s with a patch could utilize the USB HD DVD player for games. I don't know if the USB may be too much of a bottleneck or not.
This really blows, what about the future of 360 games?
I guess I should start building a new gaming PC.
thats easy cost and the ongoing format war. ms did not whant to make the 360 as expensiv as the ps3 and adding hddvd as a built in drive would brought it up the the price the ps3 is and we all knoe what that did to the ps3. and ms did not whant to give the 360 a format that might die in a cuple years. so they stuck to standerd dvd for all there games for the life of the 360 they also did not whant to force hd-dvd only games couse that woulda pissed alot of people off being forced to buy a addon and would also justfy just buying a ps3.
the mastake was not including a harddrive in the core thow couse then the limits of a standerd dvd would not be so bad sence they could essently compress the maps and use the harddrive to decompress them like they did on the orignal xbox. but sence they cant depend of every 360 having a harddrive they are indeed stuck to the size of a dl dvd. you can still use compression via memery but it would give the game some nasty load time.
but relly a dl dvd is over 8 gigs of space on its own if you game is bigger then 8 gigs you fail as a coder. look at forza 2 is has over 300 cars and also tons of custom stuff and plenty of maps and it fits on a standerd dvd just fine. so whats there problem. no sence in wining abought it anyways the 360 has a nice little feature called download content if you whant to include more maps that cant fit on your porrly codded game then offer up on there for free or include a code in the game box that gives it to your for free. problem salved. hell im shure after that they can make plenty of pay content to make up for the giveaway.
Post by: jdsony on July 31, 2007, 12:03:00 AM
QUOTE(FCTE @ Jul 31 2007, 01:58 AM)
I guess I should start building a new gaming PC.
Last time I checked PC games were still virtually ALL on DVD. Sure they can compress them so they install larger on the HD but in general they don't really become all that much bigger after install.
I don't see it as a problem. Yes it does make more work for DEVS and more space is better but honestly night time and daytime textures? The lighting system is obviously not based on reality. They should really work on making the game fun instead of a chore. And what's with driving in a blizzard? It's a cool idea but not for that kind of game.
Post by: notcrack on July 31, 2007, 12:25:00 AM
I remember working in gamestation (uk game shop) when the dreamcast was singing it's swan song
I love the xbox franchise, i even won a prize once for selling over 1000 in a year (strangely enough it was a limited edition halo smoke edition xbox and £500 worth of games), but using a previous technology for a nextgen console is slightly foolish, does anyone remember playing shenmue on the dreamcast 3-4 disc it was just too much. i can only hope that they put a hd-dvd inside the machine and start selling them.
who on this forum could honestly say that they wouldn't have purchased a xbox360 for £500 i very much doubt many of you
fingers crossed there is some hope over the horizon
well thats my 2 cents on the subject
PS3 does suck arse though it's just a shame that MGS4 looks so fucking ball achingly good
Post by: luther349 on July 31, 2007, 01:54:00 AM
and knoe it seems as we move along in gaming we seem to lose those insanly long games mutch shorter ones with good gfx. back in ps1 days you got both good gfx for that gen of gaming and a long assed game normaly multidisked.
Post by: Mephilust on July 31, 2007, 02:19:00 AM
Can they not update with patches and what not?
Oh, and what's wrong with multi disk games?
I'd have no problem wit that. :/
Post by: bucko on July 31, 2007, 02:56:00 AM
Post by: cerealkillajme on July 31, 2007, 06:14:00 AM
QUOTE(Cyberdude93 @ Jul 30 2007, 08:46 PM)
Seconded.
There's some funky technique called procedural generation to generate content on the fly. There are many good examples of this in use, like a 96kB first person shooter, but a bit more on-topic is the Live Arcade game RoboBlitz:
480MB to 3MB. I think it's safe to say that'd make any 360 game have no problems fitting in 8.3GB.
Now I'm no expert, but from what I make it, using this technique would mean less work in the long run too. Write the algorithims to make textures ONCE, then you don't need to hire as many artists for every future game you make. It's a win win if you ever plan to make any game remotely similar.
And on a completely different note, I've heard that some Atari/Amiga games on multiple disks could run either asking you to swap, or play more seamlessly if you had multiple floppy drives. Bearing in mind that was in the day when floppy drives were really expensive. Regular DVD drives are dirt cheap, Microsoft could sell one at a profit and allow games to either disc-swap (for the cheap, or those who think two DVD drives is ugly) or use both at once when appropriate. And really, if 16.6GB isn't enough then unless you're making a huge RPG, you're just doing it wrong.
Yeah, as I was reading the article that was the first thing that popped into my head (procedural generation). A guy I work with had told me about the the tech a few months ago and when he told me the first thing I thought at the time was, "well, guess Bluray won't be needed for PS3 games". I'm surprised the industry isn't already using the new tech as it looks better and saves loads of space that can be used for better things than textures. I wonder if the PGR4 devs even know about it or have used/tried it out.
Here is a pretty good Procedural Texturing Site with lots of pics and demos that show how useful the tech is.
Post by: Jagosix on July 31, 2007, 07:34:00 AM
QUOTE(BillMan @ Jul 31 2007, 04:54 AM)
**********************************************************************
We've been through this, DVD9 is plenty of space. The problem comes in when developers don't want to spend the extra time/money to fully optimize their code and media support files. I guarantee they could fit it all if they took the time to optimize, they just don't want to do that when they get next to nothing for that extra time in return...
Don't blame the fact that you can't fit your game on the DVD9 format on the size, blame the CODE, and ultimately the CODER.
EDIT: How much do you want to bet the disc is packed with bloated pre-rendedered cinematics at maximum resolution and bitrate? LOL.
**********************************************************************
Sorry, new to this and responding to this POST
Then your talking about compressing which is a very bad idea. The more things are compressed, the more jittery they become and more CPU resource is needed. Everything runs better at an uncompressed rate. You need to remember that, and this is stricltly why devolpers don't like to do so. And if DVD9 had enough space for HD movies, we would still be using the DVD format. but we switched to HDDVD. You also need to remember most games use upscaling on the Xbox360, which with PS3 we dont need to worry about.
So remember their are reasons you dont get when you talk about compressing. Very bad idea.
Also for the compressed materials, you have to remmeber it will make your 360 work harder, which means more RROD's hahaha! So I'm sure they are trying to stay away from that. And the thing is, we dont know if it was lazzyness for the code or not. Microsoft said they were working on making it fit onto a single DVD, So i'm sure they were recording it the best they could. You all have to learn to read the full article. If they could have the game the way they wanted it to be, they would of compressed it more. (if they could) But I dont watn games compressed due to the RROD.
Running games off an HD is very very bad idea for the 360 at this point. We need to focus on having the damn console work first.
Hello Fellow Gamers. Well some companies are implementing some type of Procedural Programming in some of their games. M$ should've made it a standard from the begging. Gears of war only takes up 6.43GB (add in all the current maps & up have 7.2GB). Forza 2 takes up 6.53GB. All of this still boils down to the programmers & their ability to utilize such features. This topic has appeared before the X360 even launched. Now it rears its' head again.
IF (& that's a big IF) The programmers (Developers) really utilize this technique of procedural programming, the amount of information (data) stored on a game would easily rival that of current HD-DVD & BLuRay. Also there are different types of compression techniques that are used when making a game on all levels
You have Lossy & Lossless. Lossless is a class of data compression algorithms that allows the exact original data to be reconstructed from the compressed data (like a zip or rar file).
Lossy compression method is one where compressing data and then decompressing it retrieves data that may well be different from the original, but is close enough to be useful in some way (for ex. MP3, Mp4, Jpeg, etc). Again, just about every video game contains some form of compression. Even the ones on Sony's blu-ray. DVD9 is enough space for HD Movies. VC1 movies (movie only) will fit on a DVD9, But all the extras won't.
More space doesn't make better games. Better developers (programmers) Do. Utilizing the BEST available techniques & taking advantage of current technology will result in better games that'll use as little space as possible. Nintendo has a proven track record for utilizing space. Everyone else should learn from that.
Post by: Reaper527 on July 31, 2007, 08:59:00 AM
QUOTE(BillMan @ Jul 31 2007, 12:54 AM)
Sorry, new to this and responding to this POST
Then your talking about compressing which is a very bad idea. The more things are compressed, the more jittery they become and more CPU resource is needed. Everything runs better at an uncompressed rate. You need to remember that, and this is stricltly why devolpers don't like to do so. And if DVD9 had enough space for HD movies, we would still be using the DVD format. but we switched to HDDVD. You also need to remember most games use upscaling on the Xbox360, which with PS3 we dont need to worry about.
So remember their are reasons you dont get when you talk about compressing. Very bad idea.
actually, thats not true at all. there are lossless compression formats. compression does not equate to jaggies. you are assuming all compression is like taking a raw image and saving it as a jpeg, and that is not the case.
also, compression can actually IMPROVE game performance. the processor can process data alot faster then the dvd drive can provide the data. this means the dvd drive can transfer a small compressed file and let the processor decompress it quicker then it can transfer a large uncompressed file. this gets worse with blueray and its slower transfer speeds.
also, your HD movie comparison isn't good as that is pre-rendered video and it takes up alot more space. in a game, you can have a set of textures and your game will generate the image frame by frame at a fraction of the storage foot print.
also, don't forget that DVD as well as HD-DVD and BlueRay both employ their own forms of compression. as far as i know, the compression algorithms used in the next gen dvd formats aren't a part of the dvd movie standards, so a stand alone player would be unable to decompress it if they tried to squeeze more data on to the disc that way.
i'm not even going to comment on your RRoD or stay away from the HD comments
Post by: tgm4883 on July 31, 2007, 09:04:00 AM
QUOTE(BillMan @ Jul 30 2007, 10:54 PM)
Then your talking about compressing which is a very bad idea. The more things are compressed, the more jittery they become and more CPU resource is needed. Everything runs better at an uncompressed rate. You need to remember that, and this is stricltly why devolpers don't like to do so. And if DVD9 had enough space for HD movies, we would still be using the DVD format. but we switched to HDDVD. You also need to remember most games use upscaling on the Xbox360, which with PS3 we dont need to worry about.
Wrong, there is enough space on DVD for high definition. But the movie industry would much rather you re buy your movies on HD-DVD or Bluray. Joe Consumer doesn't know any better so he buys it thinking its better. Tell me, why do they release movies that weren't even shot with a High Def camera on HD-DVD and Bluray?
Post by: throwingks on July 31, 2007, 09:20:00 AM
http://www.microsoft...ideo/t2dvd.aspx
Compression is not bad. Every DVD is compressed, even superbit DVDs have compression.
http://www.sonypictu...s_superbit.html
I haven't heard any complaints about it.
DVD9 is big enough, for both HD movies and HD games.
Post by: Knasen on July 31, 2007, 09:51:00 AM
Also I do agree that its mostly up to lazy programmers. I would say that most games will fit on a single dvd9 if done correctly. If a game like Oblivion with a huge world and countless dungeons can fit on a DVD, then surely a "simple" racing game with 10-15 tracks would fit also. Look at Dirt, it's a racing game too with alot of tracks and different racing modess (cars), it still fits one DVD. The developers for PGR4 must be crap.
Post by: MOE2FREAKY on July 31, 2007, 10:20:00 AM
QUOTE(ethanknepp @ Jul 31 2007, 11:27 AM)
with xbox 360 limited to 8.5GBs for a game unless Microsoft does something, say hello to more Sony Exclusives with pretty unlimited space for developers from blue rays 25GBs but this wont set in for another few years ...
Sorry guys just want to clear this up everybody seems to think the Xbox 360 has 8.5gb capacity available when true the DVD can hold that amount but the 360 only utilizes 7 - 7.5 Max. Even more headaches for the developers. It was posted in the forums before somewhere but I dont have the link.
Post by: esc1 on July 31, 2007, 10:49:00 AM
Post by: Mr Invader on July 31, 2007, 01:19:00 PM
QUOTE(ethanknepp @ Jul 30 2007, 07:54 PM)
the 360 is already starting to cripple .... if PGR4 is having trouble fitting on DL discs then how the hell does Halo3 fit on DL discs ?
Because PGR4 is further away from us than Halo 3, Bungie seemed to have optimized the code and compressed the information pretty well. PGR4 is still in heavy production for the most part.
I'll wager that this isn't the last that we hear from PGR4's capacity problems, either they'll compress it more or find a different way around it. Bizarre is a very talented gaming studio.
Post by: perfectdark on July 31, 2007, 06:07:00 PM
DVD9 is fine, multiple discs is fine, get over it
Post by: mc_365 on July 31, 2007, 07:15:00 PM
QUOTE(stopit33 @ Jul 31 2007, 11:55 PM)
Even if MS were afraid of loosing the format war with blue ray they still should have put a HD drive in there just for games if nothing ells
That would have added to the cost significantly.
200 for drive.
50 for larger HD
50 Digital video out.
Whats the purpose of putting the drive without hdmi connect and digital out circuitry?
If the used a HD dvd or BD they would need to decompress the game to the HD so now you need a larger HD becuase you will be competing for space with downloadable content.
At the time there had not been a major console release at over 300 USD retail. the sticker shock would have been tremendous. From 299 USD to 700 USD.
I don't think the most Hard Core Gamer Halo Luvin Sony Hating Microsoft Fanboy could have stomached that.
PS3 had the benefit of coming out a year later, the 360 had already broken the price ceiling and the PS3 had BD but it still hasn't caught on.
Even with its lack of games, I think the PS3 could have sold 3 times as many consoles if it cost 100 less.
Post by: 0794 on July 31, 2007, 09:39:00 PM
QUOTE(Mr Invader @ Jul 31 2007, 02:55 PM)
Because PGR4 is further away from us than Halo 3, Bungie seemed to have optimized the code and compressed the information pretty well. PGR4 is still in heavy production for the most part.
I'll wager that this isn't the last that we hear from PGR4's capacity problems, either they'll compress it more or find a different way around it. Bizarre is a very talented gaming studio.
i agree, but these news posts only cause more confusion about limits that don't exist on the 360...
Post by: ConteZero76 on August 01, 2007, 04:48:00 AM
QUOTE(Nemo[ @ Aug 1 2007, 10:16 AM)
I quote from the post
"So we've worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city."
So they couldn't fit all of the raw textures, and they solved the problem. Now WHY is everyone whining?
The thing that really gets me though is that for every time we hear this out of space crap, they aren't even close to fill the whole DVD.
The darkness 5.8 GB
Forza 2 6.4 GB
Overlord 6.7 GB
And that's the image size including overhead for iso format.
Same thing with the PS3, there are three games that are above the 8.4 GB of a dual layer DVD
Resistance Fall of Man 15.4 GB, largest PS3 game out there.
Just to be blunt, as everyone can confirm every XBox360 dump is around 7,05Gb so the ceiling is around 6,7-6,8 Gb (the rest is data structures, the dancing circle in DVD video format and so on).
Oh, and most of PS3 games (that are more than 3) are over 8 Gb.
Post by: pingrr on August 01, 2007, 07:28:00 AM
Post by: throwingks on August 01, 2007, 07:32:00 AM
QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 1 2007, 07:24 AM)
Just to be blunt, as everyone can confirm every XBox360 dump is around 7,05Gb so the ceiling is around 6,7-6,8 Gb (the rest is data structures, the dancing circle in DVD video format and so on).
Oh, and most of PS3 games (that are more than 3) are over 8 Gb.
You can't compare straight up like that. PS3 uses redundant data because blu-ray is slow, and the disks are nonregional. They include videos and audio for all regions, not just the specific region like Xbox360.
If you stripped Fall of Man to US only and no redundant data, what would the size be then?
QUOTE(pingrr @ Aug 1 2007, 10:04 AM)
I don't see what the big deal is. Why can't they just put games on multiple discs?
I don't see the big deal either.
Post by: dvsone on August 01, 2007, 09:21:00 AM
QUOTE
Um, disc space isn't an issue - we just decided to do more cities with more environments, but without time of day. We have *double* the amount of locations/tracks than PGR3, we *could* have chose to keep the same amount but used different locations.
DVD space was never an issue, we just decided to use it this way rather than another. To be honest I don't understand the fuss, we're still going to knock your socks off.
Chris
DVD space was never an issue, we just decided to use it this way rather than another. To be honest I don't understand the fuss, we're still going to knock your socks off.
Chris
http://www.bizarrecr...tart=40#p255926
I also found this:
QUOTE
The weather system is cited as the focus for Bizarre Creations this time around in PGR4. A series of screens were provided to backup the variety of lighitng/weather conditions.
Post by: cerealkillajme on August 01, 2007, 11:07:00 AM
I'll take my gaming today rather than tomorrow. Hell we're almost already halfway to the next gen already (console gens are normally about 4-5 years and we're almost at 2 for the x360) and Sony is still only stepping up to the plate. I'm glad I have a 360 and not a PS3 as I get to enjoy games now, not tomorrow. And if the games are too big tomorrow, multiple discs is not a problem for me at all.
And I completely agree that M$ would have been stupid to add the HD-DVD in from launch. I feel they made the smart move and the sales stats prove it.
After seeing those screenshots of PGR4, I think I'll have to rent it when it's out (didn't really like the 3rd one much, so I'll rent the 4th and buy it later if I like it). Thanks for the pix dvsone
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 01, 2007, 12:29:00 PM
QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Aug 1 2007, 01:43 PM)
Wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard a PS3 supporter use the words "soon", "future", "wait" or "coming"....
I'll take my gaming today rather than tomorrow. Hell we're almost already halfway to the next gen already (console gens are normally about 4-5 years and we're almost at 2 for the x360) and Sony is still only stepping up to the plate. I'm glad I have a 360 and not a PS3 as I get to enjoy games now, not tomorrow. And if the games are too big tomorrow, multiple discs is not a problem for me at all.
And I completely agree that M$ would have been stupid to add the HD-DVD in from launch. I feel they made the smart move and the sales stats prove it.
QFT
If Ms had included HD-DVD it would have drove the price up and they'd be in the same crappy situation as the PS3 is right now. I probably wouldn't have bought one at launch I can tell you that.
Anyone who thought we wouldn't see the storage size become problematic for at least a handfull of games is kidding themselves, but I still don't think it's such a big deal... it's been a problem with what? 5 out of nearly 250 games in the Xbox 360 catalog. Give me a break, I'll take switching discs or a few missing features for the much much lower price which has allowed the 360 to garner such a vast catalog of titles.
As for the PS3 somehow magically getting much better down the road: I'm waiting, I have cash and I'm just waiting for Sony to give me a good reason, ANY REASON to buy a PS3 TODAY. I'll wait until there is something on that platform I actually find worth their price. In the mean time that cash is earning interest while the PS3 prices get lower. At this rate by the time PS3 is worth buying I'll have twice as much money in the bank and the PS3 will only cost $200, which is fine by me. No reason to spend money on something until it's actually worth buying.
Post by: ConteZero76 on August 01, 2007, 01:00:00 PM
QUOTE(throwingks @ Aug 1 2007, 03:08 PM)
You can't compare straight up like that. PS3 uses redundant data because blu-ray is slow, and the disks are nonregional. They include videos and audio for all regions, not just the specific region like Xbox360.
If you stripped Fall of Man to US only and no redundant data, what would the size be then?
I don't see the big deal either.
I wasn't comparing, I was responding to someone.
As for "regional" and "nonregional" things, WTF ?
XBox360 PAL games are multilanguage aswell and audio/text isn't the issue here (are you really telling me that 6-7 languages are adding 15+ Gb up ?).
PS: Oh, FYI, one game used duplicating as a way to handle the "slow" (9 Mb/s) BD, most aren't because they don't need to... PS3 developers can rely on HARD DISK.
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 01, 2007, 01:06:00 PM
QUOTE(stopit33 @ Aug 1 2007, 03:21 PM)
Wow that will be something to look forward too a 360 2 in 3 years cant wait bud lol you 360 fan boys have thick skins I must say you take all the crap that MS throw at you and keep coming back for more
What crap exactly?
Yeah a lot of people had hardware problems, yeah the storage space is tight for less games than I can count on one hand.
Is that it?
I've played nearly 60 games out of the catalog and I throughly enjoyed most of them, there are easily another 40 games I haven't played yet that are out now and I'm excited about and easily another 20 coming before the end of the year. I haven't had any hardware issues to speak of and my launch day console is still under warranty... seems pretty damn good to me.
Give me one good reason I should buy a PS3 to use as a game machine today.
Give me a reason it's worth buying now instead of waiting and give me a reason that actual has to do with games and not some worthless non-gaming related feature.
If MS dropped support of the 360 TODAY I'd be perfectly content with the gaming experiences I've had so far. Yeah I'd upset that no new games would be coming out but I would no no way shape or form lament the money I've spent on gaming up to this point. As far as I'm concerned I've got my money's worth out of the console and then some. Can you say the same about your PS3?
QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 1 2007, 03:36 PM)
I wasn't comparing, I was responding to someone.
As for "regional" and "nonregional" things, WTF ?
XBox360 PAL games are multilanguage aswell and audio/text isn't the issue here (are you really telling me that 6-7 languages are adding 15+ Gb up ?).
PS: Oh, FYI, one game used duplicating as a way to handle the "slow" (9 Mb/s) BD, most aren't because they don't need to... PS3 developers can rely on HARD DISK.
IF they're adding multiple voice tracks in different languages and multiple pre-rendered cut scenes in different languages then yes it can easily double if not triple the game size.
Ninja Gaiden on the Xbox 1 had both English and Japanese video clips and voice tracks The game was just over 6gigs normally but if you removed the Japanese version of the video clips, and the Japanese voice tracks the total game size dropped to about 3.5gigs... and that was all content that you would NEVER see/hear if you were playing on a USA console (the disc was multi regioned)
The same can be said for 360 games but to get the extra space they simply leave out the foriegn retion content. Chances ar those multi region European discs are simply adding sub titles and new menus... which usually adds 100-200MB at best.
Post by: cerealkillajme on August 01, 2007, 01:40:00 PM
QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 1 2007, 02:54 PM)
twist, relax.
Don't start some stupid flame war, "xbox people" dragged in PS3, we're just avoiding FUD about PS3, the rest is up to you.
If you've someone to blame blame the one who just dragged in PS3.
If you want to say that 8+ Gb are useless for games, you're out of luck here.
As for PS3, we're alive and well with our WASTED 50Gb BD, just like PS2 owners were happy with their WASTED 8,4Gb DVD (as Dreamcast fans liked to say).
Very first post of this thread.
QUOTE(stopit33 @ Jul 30 2007, 07:37 PM)
If this would have bean a ps3 game there wouldn't have bean a problem because ps3 uses blue ray disks instead of normal DVD
QUOTE(stopit33 @ Jul 31 2007, 05:55 PM)
Even if MS were afraid of loosing the format war with blue ray they still should have put a HD drive in there just for games if nothing ells
QUOTE(stopit33 @ Aug 1 2007, 09:31 AM)
As far as a can remember MS knew the ps3 would have blue ray before they put 360 out?, all I'm thinking is when the ps3 starts to get some good games and starts taking off the 360 may be playing catch up just because they use stranded DVD for playing games
QUOTE(stopit33 @ Aug 1 2007, 11:49 AM)
I think your clutching at straws mate the ps3 will be here for duration and it will compete with the 360 and should shine soon
So which one of us "xbox people" dragged the PS3 into this discussion?
Post by: ConteZero76 on August 01, 2007, 02:11:00 PM
QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Aug 1 2007, 09:16 PM)
Very first post of this thread.
So which one of us "xbox people" dragged the PS3 into this discussion?
I got caught at page 4, I was responding to somebody there and I got flamed.
Post by: stopit33 on August 01, 2007, 02:29:00 PM
QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 1 2007, 09:47 PM)
I got caught at page 4, I was responding to somebody there and I got flamed.
It was me was only stating a fact if the 360 had a br/hd drive they wouldn't be moaning about disk space end off, I love my 360 but unlike some people on her I don't were blinkers and can see the potential of my ps3, at the minute its just collecting dust waiting to shine (if ever it happens)
Post by: ConteZero76 on August 01, 2007, 03:15:00 PM
Every XBox360 dump to date is 7,05 Gb, you've to take out the bogus video session at the beginning, security placeholders (<- I think they are still there) and XISO filesystem structure.
Post by: KAGE360 on August 02, 2007, 03:20:00 PM
QUOTE
As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...
When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.
The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.
Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!
Click for larger size... (aprx. 5MB)
We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.
Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.
When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.
The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.
Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!
Click for larger size... (aprx. 5MB)
We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.
Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.
http://www.bizarrecr...article_id=5257
carry on
Post by: Reaper527 on August 03, 2007, 12:04:00 PM
QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 1 2007, 03:54 PM)
If you want to say that 8+ Gb are useless for games, you're out of luck here.
As for PS3, we're alive and well with our WASTED 50Gb BD, just like PS2 owners were happy with their WASTED 8,4Gb DVD (as Dreamcast fans liked to say).
how many ps2 games use more space then a single layer dvd? Xenosaga maybe? i'm drawing blanks on games that use anything close to the 8.4 gig mark, and am thinking more along the 2-4 gig mark.
on a side note, what good is 50gigs on a disc that is to slow to read.
Post by: KAGE360 on August 03, 2007, 07:28:00 PM
however is there any reason that MS couldnt lisence and use a similar technology as this....
QUOTE
Japan-based electronics giant Hitachi has developed a technology which allows 200 movies to be packed into a single DVD disc.
This is achieved by stacking multiple data-storing layers on a disc to allow reading and writing of a vast amount of data that can run up to 400 hours, reported the Agence French-Presse news agency.
The report said conventional DVD storage technology allows up to two layers to be used on one disc, but Hitachi's breakthrough can boost storage significantly by allowing for multiple layers.
"We expect demand for a DVD with a bigger capacity and hope to market the product globally in the near future," Hitachi spokesman Takeshi Kawakami was quoted as saying.
The company said it hopes to commercialise the technology, which was jointly developed with its audio and video storage subsidiary Hitachi Maxwell, by 2007.
Besides DVDs, optical storage vendors have also been looking to pack more into normal compact discs (CD).
Last month, Sanyo said its new technique can double the amount of data stored on CD-recordable discs. The firm said its technology fits 1.4GB of data into a standard 700MB (80-minute) blank CD write-once or rewritable disc.
This is achieved by stacking multiple data-storing layers on a disc to allow reading and writing of a vast amount of data that can run up to 400 hours, reported the Agence French-Presse news agency.
The report said conventional DVD storage technology allows up to two layers to be used on one disc, but Hitachi's breakthrough can boost storage significantly by allowing for multiple layers.
"We expect demand for a DVD with a bigger capacity and hope to market the product globally in the near future," Hitachi spokesman Takeshi Kawakami was quoted as saying.
The company said it hopes to commercialise the technology, which was jointly developed with its audio and video storage subsidiary Hitachi Maxwell, by 2007.
Besides DVDs, optical storage vendors have also been looking to pack more into normal compact discs (CD).
Last month, Sanyo said its new technique can double the amount of data stored on CD-recordable discs. The firm said its technology fits 1.4GB of data into a standard 700MB (80-minute) blank CD write-once or rewritable disc.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000...4925,00.htm?r=1
also i thought i remember reading or hearing about sony owning a patent for 5 layer DVD among other articles i have read in the past of similar technologies.
so my question is, cant the 360 run/read and use this (or similar) type of technology, finally putting to rest any doubts, fears, and bull**** surrounding this pointless debate?
QUOTE(Reaper527 @ Aug 3 2007, 02:40 PM)
how many ps2 games use more space then a single layer dvd? Xenosaga maybe? i'm drawing blanks on games that use anything close to the 8.4 gig mark, and am thinking more along the 2-4 gig mark.
on a side note, what good is 50gigs on a disc that is to slow to read.
not to mention the fact that the ps3 doesnt run the majority of it's effects in software and thus requires more code and space to emulate such effects. plus, unless i'm mistaken, but the majority of the ps2 games are pressed on DVD5 which made a difference.
of course anyone please correct me on anything
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 04, 2007, 06:25:00 AM
QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Aug 3 2007, 09:28 PM)
... is there any reason that MS couldnt lisence and use a similar technology as this....
really whether or not you can use that technology depends on how good your laser array is. I'm sure there are consumer products on the market that could start utilizing this tech with as little as a firmware update (which would be necessary no matter what) but some devices would need all new laser hardware.
it of course requires much higher focus accuracy because it works by basically focusing at a very specific depth and filtering everything else out. I would imagine some player would even have too much disc wobble to be accurate enough.
Assuming the hardware is good enough to handle it in the 360 (which I doubt considering the disc scratching and DRE issues) they'd still need to do a firmware update and I doubt they could do that either, because if they could I would imagine they would have pushed one out at this point to help quash piracy.
Post by: KAGE360 on August 04, 2007, 09:24:00 AM
this disk size topic never really bothered me, as long as it doesnt hinder the gameplay, im more then happy to save the extra $$ for it. all these stupid little fanboyish debates and such just get old at times.
This post has been edited by KAGE360: Aug 4 2007, 04:33 PM
Post by: matallica28 on August 04, 2007, 05:26:00 PM
Mutliple disks are just as a good as one big disk. Not better, just as good.
Post by: Johnny Johnson on August 20, 2007, 10:19:00 AM
QUOTE(tgm4883 @ Jul 31 2007, 11:40 AM)
Wrong, there is enough space on DVD for high definition. But the movie industry would much rather you re buy your movies on HD-DVD or Bluray. Joe Consumer doesn't know any better so he buys it thinking its better. Tell me, why do they release movies that weren't even shot with a High Def camera on HD-DVD and Bluray?
TGM4883, you're correct. There is room for HD on a DVD-9. Proof of this is that you can download 720p movies from Marketplace that are around 5-6GB each. Unfortunately the problem comes when trying to fit all of the High-def extras on the disc. That is where they take advantage of HD-DVD's and Blu-ray's extra capacity. Too bad they don't release 720p movies on regular dual-layer DVD's (without all of the extra features and whatnot).