Post by: Xbox-Scene on May 18, 2006, 05:41:00 PM
Live Anywhere Dev: Xbox 360 Pad Beats Keyb. and Mouse in Close Combat-- Posted by XanTium on May 18 19:41 EST
From gamesfirst.com:
Quote
"Originally, we thought the PC would destroy the Xbox controller," said Bill Gross, a Software Test Engineer working on Shadowrun, the premiere Live Anywhere title for the Xbox 360 and Windows Vista. "But it didn't."
Balancing the gameplay between the two systems took a lot of trial and error. And contradictory to what most gamers would expect, the keyboard and mouse didn't dominate. In fact, it lost. Repeatedly.
"There will always be people that say the keyboard is better," Gross said. "In our game, we've found that's not the case. When we first started testing it, the keyboard tended to have an advantage in long distance combat, and the controller had an advantage in close combat. You could do things quicker on the controller (than the keyboard)."
Read More: gamesfirst.com
Post by: Frentic Amnesic on May 18, 2006, 04:50:00 PM
KB/M will always give you more precision, and the controller will ALWAYS be better for close combat.
What I'm hoping for is a hybrid of the 2, maby a 360 controller with a trackball, or something awesome like that
Post by: redwolf on May 18, 2006, 04:53:00 PM
anyways i heard similer thing on Dreamcast vs PC (Quake), still people using Dreamcast were getting pwned by PC gamers!!!
btw, Bill Gross?.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/jester.gif)
This post has been edited by redwolf: May 18 2006, 11:56 PM
Post by: yaazz on May 18, 2006, 05:44:00 PM
Post by: sew3521 on May 18, 2006, 05:54:00 PM
QUOTE(yaazz @ May 18 2006, 06:51 PM) 
this has already been shown to be false with Quake 3 on dreamcast. We had pads and 30fps, they had a precision mouse, and 100fps, it was no chance whatsoever
I think the 360 is just a little bit more powerful then the dreakcast
but in all reality i think it will come down to the player...personally i perfer the keyboard however i know many people who would take the joystick anyday....plus the 360 will prolly outpreform most computers out right now......My big question is will this let a computer connect to XBL...if it does i must say im supprised MS is going to open up there fairly secure baby to the big bad world of computers *GASP* 
Post by: LazarusX on May 18, 2006, 05:59:00 PM
QUOTE(sew3521 @ May 19 2006, 01:01 AM) 
My big question is will this let a computer connect to XBL...if it does i must say im supprised MS is going to open up there fairly secure baby to the big bad world of computers *GASP* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
They wont let pc gamers onto xbox live.. ever
Post by: briaguya on May 18, 2006, 06:11:00 PM
make the game support both on both, so keyboard and mouse on 360 and pc, and same with the controller.
Post by: mitch2025 on May 18, 2006, 07:00:00 PM
QUOTE(LazarusX @ May 18 2006, 08:06 PM)
They wont let pc gamers onto xbox live.. ever
actually thats what MS is wanting to do. personaly i dont care. the only thing im worried about is people on PC being abe to use hacks against people on the 360
Post by: BasicAir on May 18, 2006, 07:03:00 PM
QUOTE(yaazz @ May 19 2006, 12:51 AM)
this has already been shown to be false with Quake 3 on dreamcast. We had pads and 30fps, they had a precision mouse, and 100fps, it was no chance whatsoever
I don't know if you are saying you agree or disagree.
I had a DreamCast and the DreamCast Mouse and Keyboard and Quake 3 Arena and let me tell you - if you had a controller, you never stood a chance.
If you had a keyboard/mouse, you literally crushed the other players to death. They'd be lucky to get one kill.
Trust me, I subscribed to SegaNet and the whole she-bang like I just said. I even played with the controller at first, not wanting to buy a kb/m because then I couldn't lay back in my couch or lay-z-boy, but I'd be lucky to get a couple kills if that.
Maybe on THEIR game it's a good balance of kb/m and controller players, but on most every FPS I promise this will not be true.
The day every forthcoming FPS Live title supports KB/M is the day I quit console gaming.
Unless, of course, the extremely slim chance of the games letting you setup a server of your own and let you not allow PC (or kb/m) users. But yeah, like that'll happen -- maybe for 2 games/year.
This is why KB/M don't belong in console gaming - because they dominate. So what you say? Why doesn't everyone just get a KB/M then you say? The fact is, console gaming is so popular with console game players because they don't want to sit up at some type of desk of sorts to game -- they want to lay back in their recliners and game with a controller.
MS even did a survey pre-360. It was a volunteer one. It asked random questions about what gamers wanted in their next-gen console and such. MS reported that an overwhelming amount of people did NOT want the KB/M to be accessories for FPS gaming at all.
Again, I have personal experience from the DreamCast, and can tell you it will ruin the MP experience for a lot of people. This is assuming that there will be no way to distinguish kb/m players in matches and/or keep them out, etc, etc.
Every day on the Xbox.com forums someone whines about no KB/M support on the 360 and I have to keep telling all these facts I've just stated. Well actually, I quit now because others do it for me and because I gave up. MS already knows most their consumers don't want it, so that's why they don't support it.
This topic really pinches a nerve with me for some reason.
Post by: Madgame on May 18, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
QUOTE(LazarusX @ May 19 2006, 01:06 AM)
They wont let pc gamers onto xbox live.. ever
This is what LIve Anywhere is designed for, correct?
Post by: BasicAir on May 18, 2006, 07:40:00 PM
QUOTE(Madgame @ May 19 2006, 02:12 AM)
This is what LIve Anywhere is designed for, correct?
The whole concept of LiveAnywhere is just that -- to be able to access it in some shape or form on essentially any device, even your cell phone.
They did, however, officially announce that there would be games on the 360 that are online playable with PC players. They did mention that. And that sends chills down my spine because of the whole KB/M issue.
Post by: CattyKid on May 18, 2006, 08:17:00 PM
Post by: tazeat on May 18, 2006, 11:04:00 PM
QUOTE(CattyKid @ May 18 2006, 06:24 PM)
I persoanlly would rather play with the 360 controller than even the nicest keyboard and mouse. I've grown up playing with controllers, so I'm used to them. I think, in the right hands, they are excellent. Instead of being able to move in 4 directions (well, actually 8 for combo presses), with e gamepad like the 360 controller you can move in hundreds because you move wherever you point the stick. Also, the controller is more comfortable, which is nice for those long sessions. And all the buttons are right there, you just have to move your fingertips as opposed to your arm and hand for a lot of computer games.
And I would argue the opposite I grew up on mouse and keyboard way back from when half life (the first one) multiplayer was hot, yes before the counterstrike mod, and played hours on it, and then i spent a ton of time playing halo and learned xbox controller (still use large "duke" one and will argue its better too...)... But no way would it ever compare to a pc keyboard and mouse... no way.
Currently i use the mx518 (around $50) and a MS natural keyboard.
This post has been edited by tazeat: May 19 2006, 06:05 AM
Post by: xboxSlayer on May 19, 2006, 12:45:00 AM
Post by: dmitri on May 19, 2006, 12:58:00 AM
-dp
Post by: brakken on May 19, 2006, 02:16:00 AM
I'll stick with my keyboard and laser mouse anyday.
Post by: ncaissie on May 19, 2006, 04:31:00 AM
I love playing Far cry and HL 2 on the PC but on the Xbox it's to hard to aim.
Halo 2 (or 3) with a mouse an keyboard would rock.
To bad they didn't make one for the Xbox.
Post by: incognegro on May 19, 2006, 04:48:00 AM
anyways gimme my controller and ill smoke you keyboard users anyday
Post by: zX_Storm on May 19, 2006, 05:57:00 AM
QUOTE
It sounds to me like the article was leaving out some detail to be purposely misleading. If I read it correctly, the dev team added things like auto-aim for the KBM players to balance it out. So does that mean the controller guys already had auto-aim? Not only does it change the game, but it completely underscores the argument about controls.
If a controller is so good for FPS games -- which it isn't -- it wouldn't need auto-aim.
Computer games have never had auto-aim, because.. they don't need it.
Post by: twistedsymphony on May 19, 2006, 07:48:00 AM
As for me, I'm horrible with a keyboard and mouse and feel much more comfortable using a game pad... I get destroyed no matter WHAT I use but I get destroyed less with a game pad
I think the most important thing with what control device is better is the player's skill with that device, if you're familiar with a keyboard and mouse you'll always be better with it over a gamepad and visa versa.
with all skills equal a skilled gamepad player vs a skilled keyboard/mouse player the keyboard/mouse player has the advantage based purely on precision.
-------------
Despite past experience this really can't be compared to Quake or any other game that has had various optional controls like that, it's quite obvious that the developers have spent a lot of time to ensure that the controls are balanced where past titles didn't really get that.
I think it's a great idea that they'd open up a game to let uses play with whatever they want.... I also think that if they do that they NEED to institute options that would allow you to setup your games to play against the type of players you want. So if you're a gamepad player and only want to play against other gamepad players, you should have that option.
Options are good, but giving the option of what controller type you also need the option of if you want to play against people using that controller type.
In the end you can't compare it to past experiences, wait and see if the game really truly is balanced, maybe you wont mind playing against someone using a different type of controller.. maybe it wont matter.
Post by: ikecomp on May 19, 2006, 08:28:00 AM
Think about it, how well would somebody playing with a KBM fair against somebody with a controller in a game of Madden. The controller would win hands down just because of the intuitiveness of the button layout and also better control of the modeled athlete on screen.
Post by: TheOtherBob on May 19, 2006, 12:07:00 PM
I wonder if it'd be possible to allow the kbm in singleplayer as an option but not on Live to keep things fair?
How do driving games work with a steering wheel over the regular controller? Do the wheel owners have an advantage? I don't own any racing games so......
Post by: sp3cialk on May 19, 2006, 01:58:00 PM
Post by: Foe-hammer on May 20, 2006, 04:23:00 AM
Lets break it down here:
Mouse is more accurate then the controller analog stick for aiming.
Keyboard has no advantage over the analog controller for movement, infact it is at a disadvantage. Thus.... mouse is good, keyboard sucks.
Post by: Lysit on May 20, 2006, 05:08:00 PM
QUOTE(sp3cialk @ May 19 2006, 09:05 PM)
I hate PC games that use KB/M... I'm good with a mouse but horrible with the keyboard... so i often get hammered hitting the wrong key and not moving... maybe they should make a hybrid usb that's half mouse and half controller... because nothing beats a 1600 dpi mouse for sniping... don't thinks those little pots in my controller are that precise... but still... I'm at a desk in front of a computer all day... I'd rather sit back in my recliner and use my wireless controller any day...
Try joystick and mouse, I believe UT was orginally meant to be played like that. (Joystick for movement, mouse for aiming).
Post by: deacon187 on May 20, 2006, 06:44:00 PM
QUOTE(TheOtherBob @ May 19 2006, 11:14 AM)
How do driving games work with a steering wheel over the regular controller? Do the wheel owners have an advantage? I don't own any racing games so......
i havent played on the 360 with a wheel yet, BUT it almost feels, racing with the controller on PGR3, that it would be better with a wheel, arcade style racers with a wheel sucks because the responce is so messed up, but on a game that feels like pgr3 with a controller, almost seems like the responce would be awsome on a wheel, i could be wrong but i havent tried a wheel yet
can someone with a wheel enlighten us on how pgr3 is compared to say full auto or burnout, wheel vs controller for each game
Post by: redwolf on May 21, 2006, 06:31:00 AM
someone could have super fast PC, then all they will do is use it at low graphical setting via game's option, turning all the textures and everything to minimum, turn off all the shadows and other effects to get smooth fast frame rate.
and most monitors you can get like 120Hz refresh-rate, as console will be 60Hz the maxed!
console gamers are fucked
so will we be able to tell if someone using the PC or Xbox 360 in the game? if so, we can at least know why we getting pwned and exit the game
Post by: brooksie48 on May 21, 2006, 09:30:00 AM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ May 19 2006, 08:55 AM)
As for me, I'm horrible with a keyboard and mouse and feel much more comfortable using a game pad...
Same here, when I was playing the bf2 demo I couldn't wait to play modern combat on xbox, because I am better with it and I like the feel more.Post by: RUNEX2K on July 02, 2006, 05:40:00 AM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ May 19 2006, 02:55 PM)
I remember Quake III on the Dreamcast... KB/mouse players destroyed the controller users... But on the same token the game was originally designed to be played on a keyboard and mouse.
As for me, I'm horrible with a keyboard and mouse and feel much more comfortable using a game pad... I get destroyed no matter WHAT I use but I get destroyed less with a game pad
I think the most important thing with what control device is better is the player's skill with that device, if you're familiar with a keyboard and mouse you'll always be better with it over a gamepad and visa versa.
with all skills equal a skilled gamepad player vs a skilled keyboard/mouse player the keyboard/mouse player has the advantage based purely on precision.
-------------
Despite past experience this really can't be compared to Quake or any other game that has had various optional controls like that, it's quite obvious that the developers have spent a lot of time to ensure that the controls are balanced where past titles didn't really get that.
I think it's a great idea that they'd open up a game to let uses play with whatever they want.... I also think that if they do that they NEED to institute options that would allow you to setup your games to play against the type of players you want. So if you're a gamepad player and only want to play against other gamepad players, you should have that option.
Options are good, but giving the option of what controller type you also need the option of if you want to play against people using that controller type.
In the end you can't compare it to past experiences, wait and see if the game really truly is balanced, maybe you wont mind playing against someone using a different type of controller.. maybe it wont matter.
I used to play Q3 on the Dreamcast with the K/M allot and kicked most peoples asses, sometimes no losses at all most nights quite frequently but i could'nt get the hang of playing it with a pad no matter how much i practiced, BUT there was a few players that really took to the pad and gave mouse and keyboard users a sense of shame as they were supposed to be using superior controlls. Its not always the case that K/M users have an unfair advantage but generally it is, In my opinion there are only two kinds of games that suit K/M better and they are FPS and RTS but its clear that most of the time its how the game makers implements these controlls rather than the controller in question.
The Dreamcast and Q3 supprised many especially PC owners that expected them to be a walk over even though they had far superior power but it wasnt always the case. i remember playing pc players and owning with my faithful DC K/M running at a max 28kbps with my 60hz tv. The Balance as you state can be achieved even with large differences between hardware but it takes more time to become effective than it would with a pc K/M but worth it in the end. The 360 pad is amazing and compared to the DC pad its far more effective but the keyboard and mouse combo has stayed the same throughout, i do believe that the time is getting closer before the equalibrium or close to it can be achieved, the advantage is definatley slipping away from the K/M and moving over to the PAD but it will never be totally the best unless there is some method of being more precise with a pad.