Post by: Xbox-Scene on December 21, 2007, 07:26:00 PM
| So we've gotten some interesting conclusions over the past week regarding the new 'waves' of bans over supposedly modified consoles on xbox live. As you've all seen, Microsoft has started unbanning consoles. I've seen alot of people who were banned this past weekend, and are still banned, no matter how much yelling they do to poor customer reps. Others, who have modified firmwares ranging from 5.x to 1.4, and have never made a phone call have miraculously become unbanned! As always with Microsoft, there is no rhyme or reason to their actions. A couple interesting things we have found... You CAN have your console banned for having a 12v fan mod. A very trusted user of www.360patches.com got told directly from MS reps that his fan was modded on his 360 and that it violates the TOA. Any modification of hardware does indeed violate the TOA, so legally they reserve the right to ban users from live for that reason. Petty yes, but justified. A fan mod would be reasonably easy to detect, as voltage metering is something standard in all bios for the past 10 or so years. In regards to 'bad game data' or kreon rips, SS, dmi and pfi, it appears that the reason MS might be unbanning xbox360's is because we've found evidence that strongly suggests ANY xbox360 can return bogus data. After some internal testing on a few older 360's, it seems that once a lens is near the end of its life, it can respond with all sorts of data, or lack thereof. A len's on the fritz was able to produce all sorts of odd angles that a new drive would not, aswell as tons of missing data throughout SS files (many chunks of data that read 00's instead). So, it appears that MS is backtracking somewhat on the ban's, likely due to the reasons described above. Their infallible system has proven once again to not be perfect, and to attack innocent users. As always, we recommend that if you are a live user, to NOT modify your system, as you will eventually get banned. |
Post by: baberg on December 21, 2007, 08:10:00 PM
Iriez Edit-
Yes, dmi/pfi are fine. Seems that only SS in regards to C/R is affected.
This post has been edited by Iriez: Dec 23 2007, 06:17 AM
Post by: pezjono1986 on December 21, 2007, 08:13:00 PM
Who the hell decided to start banning consoles with fan mods!?!
I'm starting to think they really do want consoles to RRoD... More money in their bottomless pockets
Post by: superost on December 21, 2007, 08:16:00 PM
seriously.. this is starting to get annoying
Post by: Teamxbox on December 21, 2007, 08:21:00 PM
Post by: HotKnife420 on December 21, 2007, 08:59:00 PM
QUOTE(superost @ Dec 22 2007, 04:52 AM) 
NO 12V MOD!? WTF! The reason we do that is because it may get overheated - idiots..
seriously.. this is starting to get annoying
Preventing the RROD does indeed violoate the TOS for LIVE, as well as the EULA (which you don't have to agree with to purchase). Personally, I think using an intercooler is just a bad idea anyway, but here's a *new* reason why (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
I did have one of my consoles recently banned; my backup of Gears of War was having trouble reading on first attempts; I wonder if that's what banned me...
Post by: mlapaglia on December 21, 2007, 08:24:00 PM
lets see how this second one makes out.
Post by: ILLusions0fGrander on December 21, 2007, 08:39:00 PM
pretty crazy that they had to backtrack, meaning what though? A bad SS is now no longer a infallible way of determining a modification or banning someone from live?
sounds a little to good for a lot of people.. unless, i'm missing something.
Post by: cofree on December 21, 2007, 08:41:00 PM
The other thing I have against them is they don't have the GUTS to step up and say."Sorry guy we made a mistake."
they just quietly try to make it go away.
Any one or company that will not openly admit there mistake can kiss my!
Post by: andjelko on December 21, 2007, 08:49:00 PM
and
I liquid cooled my 360 - no way for MS to check that except now the stock fans (no 12 V mod) run at a low speed all the time. Should I be concerned?
Post by: Iriez on December 21, 2007, 09:26:00 PM
QUOTE(ILLusions0fGrander @ Dec 21 2007, 11:15 PM)
wow. not something i would expect to read coming into this article.
pretty crazy that they had to backtrack, meaning what though? A bad SS is now no longer a infallible way of determining a modification or banning someone from live?
sounds a little to good for a lot of people.. unless, i'm missing something.
Well, it certianlly points that way.
This is not the first time that MS has banned and backtracked. It also happended a few weeks after the first wave, i recall a wave rolled, and within a week the entire wave was removed.
Post by: dbldown768 on December 21, 2007, 08:57:00 PM
Post by: shlipshlip on December 21, 2007, 08:59:00 PM
and i'm curious about blaster360 too, as i just bought one
This post has been edited by shlipshlip: Dec 22 2007, 05:04 AM
Post by: thiluxan_s on December 21, 2007, 08:59:00 PM
. Thanks.
Post by: Deltagunner on December 21, 2007, 09:00:00 PM
Post by: the_nerdy on December 21, 2007, 09:46:00 PM
The jitter affect did not work as well as Microsoft hoped.
However, lasers due to the end of their life??? wow! this machine hasn't even been out that long. LOL That is what people get for a crapy system.
Anyways, maybe if we mod our firmware, their is a way to get the laser to always act like this. The reason being is because if we know the bogus data that is being sent. Then Microsoft would have no way of telling if this is actually modded or just a bad laser.
Looks like they tweaked there laser jitter affect up a notch to much
Anywayas, That is just my idea is to make everyones lasers input this way. and maybe you will not be able to be banned for this reason, or you can get unbanned.
Post by: Paperstack.1 on December 21, 2007, 09:23:00 PM
Post by: ilovecrack on December 21, 2007, 09:27:00 PM
Post by: wumbo65 on December 21, 2007, 09:34:00 PM
Post by: LegendDJ on December 21, 2007, 09:38:00 PM
Post by: Reaper527 on December 21, 2007, 09:39:00 PM
regardless, great work to everyone involved in figuring out the news on the ban scheme.
also, to the person asking about a talismoon fan, i would assume that you should be fine if you hooked it up to where the old fans got their power, but if your drawing your power from a 12v source... (also keep in mind that its speculation on my part that you should be fine as long as your power source is the same as the original, not a proven fact)
Post by: syntaxerror329 on December 21, 2007, 10:21:00 PM
QUOTE(ilovecrack @ Dec 22 2007, 12:03 AM)
oh snaps. Talismoon will prob be cool though, right?
Wow I just came here to post a message on this exact topic.
Current:
Talismoon Fan 160mA - Original Fan: 250mA
Speed: 4100RPM - Original Fan: 4600RPM
I have had a customer ask me to order a fan and install it. I have it right here. He does not have the firmware hack mainly because he fears being banned. Now i feel i have to tell him that he might get banned.
Does anyone know if i could add a resistor to somehow make the Talismoon appear to be drawing 250mA? I am sure some of you tech geeks here can figure this out with ohms law.
Then microsoft will probably say we banned you becuase your fan is going 5000 RPM too slow. LOL
So i guess i gotta tell this guy that loves his xbox so much he wants to protect it that microsoft might ban him
So SAD.
This post has been edited by syntaxerror329: Dec 22 2007, 06:23 AM
Post by: ilovecrack on December 21, 2007, 09:49:00 PM
Post by: arapozo on December 21, 2007, 10:09:00 PM
Post by: superost on December 21, 2007, 10:47:00 PM
QUOTE(HotKnife420 @ Dec 22 2007, 04:59 AM)
Preventing the RROD does indeed violoate the TOS for LIVE, as well as the EULA (which you don't have to agree with to purchase). Personally, I think using an intercooler is just a bad idea anyway, but here's a *new* reason why (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Who cares about their "TOS" or "EULA"+- banning users from Live for this reason is lame (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) ..
You lose you're warranty by opening it anyway, so MS isn't (or shouldn't be) repairing any damage you might make by doing the mod or adding some other stuff anyway. And I'm talking about the 12V mod, not an intercooler ...
Also you're not even messing with their precious Live System - this is a simple hardware mod with no affect to the software part.. or am I missing something here..
This post has been edited by superost: Dec 22 2007, 06:47 AM
Post by: darylzero on December 21, 2007, 10:16:00 PM
This post has been edited by darylzero: Dec 22 2007, 06:18 AM
Post by: ilovecrack on December 21, 2007, 10:27:00 PM
Post by: elocin671 on December 21, 2007, 10:35:00 PM
Post by: Chan163 on December 21, 2007, 10:36:00 PM
Post by: JBmtk on December 21, 2007, 11:16:00 PM
QUOTE(elocin671 @ Dec 22 2007, 01:11 AM)
if i get banned for a 12v fan mod. then microsoft can kiss my a$$. id hate to open 360's ive done the mod to in order to put the stock fans back in. and get 3 red lights because of it. its complete bs. its not like my 12v fans are making me play "back-ups", or making my 360 any better. besides cooling the shit out of it in hope of preventing 3rod. im probably gona get banned now because i know microsoft has someone searching forums. and that asshole is gona get my ip addess and ban my console.
ahahahah
I agree with the last statement of this article....simply don't play backups on live. ..lets be honest here people
Post by: ilovecrack on December 21, 2007, 11:16:00 PM
Post by: ShaX5 on December 21, 2007, 11:28:00 PM
-ShaX
Post by: HotKnife420 on December 21, 2007, 11:00:00 PM
QUOTE(superost @ Dec 22 2007, 06:47 AM) 
Who cares about their "TOS" or "EULA"+- banning users from Live for this reason is lame
.. You lose you're warranty by opening it anyway, so MS isn't (or shouldn't be) repairing any damage you might make by doing the mod or adding some other stuff anyway. And I'm talking about the 12V mod, not an intercooler ...
Also you're not even messing with their precious Live System - this is a simple hardware mod with no affect to the software part.. or am I missing something here..
In all fairness, using any of the current firmware hacks don't allow any cheating/hacking on live that isn't able to be performed with an original disc, but it's grounds for banning. Any modification means *any*. I wholeheartedly agree that it's wrong, and partially feel firmware bans are wrong, but not much I can do about that
Post by: ilovecrack on December 21, 2007, 11:37:00 PM
Post by: brandogg on December 22, 2007, 12:25:00 AM
Post by: qweewqaz on December 22, 2007, 12:47:00 AM
Post by: Bubbalynch on December 22, 2007, 12:59:00 AM
QUOTE(Xbox-Scene @ Dec 22 2007, 04:02 AM)
you will eventually get banned.
Well, I guess that about wraps it up.
Fuck it, ban me... "eventually". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
Post by: superost on December 22, 2007, 12:47:00 AM
QUOTE(HotKnife420 @ Dec 22 2007, 07:36 AM)
In all fairness, using any of the current firmware hacks don't allow any cheating/hacking on live that isn't able to be performed with an original disc, but it's grounds for banning. Any modification means *any*. I wholeheartedly agree that it's wrong, and partially feel firmware bans are wrong, but not much I can do about that
IMO there is a major difference between using a firmware hack and modding your fan speed/voltage.. Custom firmwares are a baaad business for MS, since people often use pirated games, even if custom firmwares are "meant" to be used for backups.. and we know that game sales are pretty important in this business.. I think that is pretty clear and that's why I actually understand MS, when they ban people from live who use custom firmwares. (Of course it's NOT fair, when people get banned even though their drive is clean from any modifications)
BUT how can a fan mod hurt MS in any way?..
wrong strategy MS.. once againPost by: shlipshlip on December 22, 2007, 01:29:00 AM
but i asked before and no one answered yet, would the blaster 360 be effected by this? does it run anymore power from the system?
and was any kind of new technique used int he latest wave of bans? Or does c4eva/the whole firmware modding crew still think it's the same dmi, pfi, and kreon ss?
Post by: spivey8 on December 22, 2007, 01:01:00 AM
I dont see how they can SEE a modded fan..... i mean think about it, if i get the intercooler for the back and a stand fan that the 360 sits on with a usb and i have my zune charging..... wouldnt that be more power than a 12v fan??? i mean im sure they are just telling you this so you wont open your xbox.... next time you call in, ask if you open your xbox and change the grease on the chips... can they tell. I BET THEY WILL TELL YOU YES.
Post by: Tranman on December 22, 2007, 02:05:00 AM
Post by: OuTeR HeAvEn on December 22, 2007, 02:07:00 AM
So i just thought something and i want to share with you guys.
If you have not plug anything at all on fan socket then you can simple put another extra fans (for example on the cpu heatsink) and after that anything will work normally .
Please tell me your opinion on this guys (noobs not reply on this)
Post by: Paperstack.1 on December 22, 2007, 01:36:00 AM
QUOTE(spivey8 @ Dec 22 2007, 03:37 AM)
I dont see how they can SEE a modded fan..... i mean think about it, if i get the intercooler for the back and a stand fan that the 360 sits on with a usb and i have my zune charging..... wouldnt that be more power than a 12v fan??? i mean im sure they are just telling you this so you wont open your xbox.... next time you call in, ask if you open your xbox and change the grease on the chips... can they tell. I BET THEY WILL TELL YOU YES.
Funniest sentences i've read in this thread so far. Funny and true
Post by: Mozbius on December 22, 2007, 02:33:00 AM
Post by: SargeRock on December 22, 2007, 02:53:00 AM
I still believe MS can read changes in firmware somehow.....is "Firmguard" stopping them really? or does THAT give criteria for banning? not being able to "see" their box???????? SMOKE IN THE AIR
this is getting to be a real pain.....
Sarge
This post has been edited by SargeRock: Dec 22 2007, 11:04 AM
Post by: lazzeri on December 22, 2007, 03:51:00 AM
Let me tell you this - those guys have balls. :-D
On a wild guess, i´d say that they wouldn´t ban *everyone* with a 12v. They might be adding things together: A 12v PLUS a weird drive response EQUALS ban (actually it doesn´t MATTER if it was caused by the F/W or bad laser, you´d already violated your TOS when performed the 12v)
Post by: Garyfez on December 22, 2007, 04:02:00 AM
Post by: Xitherun on December 22, 2007, 03:27:00 AM
This is just being abusive to the customers. I never thought I'd see MS go on such a power trip.
Post by: Johnny HugeButt on December 22, 2007, 04:06:00 AM
QUOTE(Tranman @ Dec 22 2007, 10:05 AM)
It does make sense that M$ should be able to read internal fan speed values...especially since almost all modern computers bios do report that. Download a CPU fan utility and you can easily retrieve fan voltage and speed values.
All cool n all but CPU fans have a feedback line (total 3 wires: +, - and feedback) that reports speed while the xbox 360 fans only have power lines (+ and -). There is no speed feedback in the fan system so they cannot read speed.
They could read power drainage but as the fan is not running at constant speeds this wont be easy. And what if one of the fans breaks down? That will affect the total power drainage too.
I added a Talismoon plus an extra fan on the GPU (I made the DVD 'power' cable longer and use a PC SATA cable which allowes me to place the dvd drive outside the box). This means i am surely out of range and possible candidate for banning (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
JH
This post has been edited by Johnny HugeButt: Dec 22 2007, 12:07 PM
Post by: Chancer on December 22, 2007, 04:35:00 AM
The unbanning is still not confirmed as to why the unbanned machines were banned in the first place.
We may never know.
Maybe Ms is just trying to piss off everyone by varying the attacks.
Post by: zegita on December 22, 2007, 04:40:00 AM
Post by: elocin671 on December 22, 2007, 05:04:00 AM
QUOTE(zegita @ Dec 22 2007, 09:40 PM)
To everybody talking about that fan mod. Can't you just give it another power source. Like having an extra cord to the fan instead of using the xbox's power supply.
that would look ugly. i did it to a intercooler and it sucked having to lug around a 12v adapter and the huge power brick for lan partys. and if you did that what would you connect to the fan connector? microsoft could read no fan speed or voltage. i think banning for a 12v fan mod is a bit extreme. how do they know the stock fans arent running at 12v because the cpu is getting so damn hot? they designed it to run at 5v - 12v but it doesnt help for shit. if they were reading fan speed and voltage how would they not know that their faulty console is just reporting bogus speeds/voltage.
This post has been edited by elocin671: Dec 22 2007, 01:06 PM
Post by: the_nerdy on December 22, 2007, 05:48:00 AM
Microsoft is not banning over a fan modd.
The guy said he called Microsoft and they told him he had a fan mod. BUt he wasn't banned.
So whala.
Also, there is a new security leak. If we can figure out the procedure of how the laser reads and make it purposly act this way. The timing attack and etc, will no longer be any good and we have a full proof method of not getting banned, or being banned and getting unbanned.
More then likely, Microsoft will fix this error somehow and we can take full advantage of it.
You all need to look at the big picture here of what was just discovered.
And yes, you can still use the Kreon checker with this method too of course.
Post by: -PK- on December 22, 2007, 06:03:00 AM
QUOTE(the_nerdy @ Dec 22 2007, 01:48 PM)
If we can figure out the procedure of how the laser reads and make it purposly act this way. The timing attack and etc, will no longer be any good and we have a full proof method of not getting banned, or being banned and getting unbanned.
More then likely, Microsoft will fix this error somehow and we can take full advantage of it.
You all need to look at the big picture here of what was just discovered.
And yes, you can still use the Kreon checker with this method too of course.
You could easily make the fw report back random or bad data. You go ahead and make your console stick out from the crowd and deal with their poor customer support when you get banned and try explaining that your laser is dying...I'll choose to blend my console in with the 100% perfect console crowd instead.
As far as I'm concerned the ixtreme fw responds to every conditional situation exactly as it should.
Post by: arash89 on December 22, 2007, 06:50:00 AM
Personally what i think is that microsoft saw a little change on my console and decided to see if it can read backups... So they made it look like a backup and wanted to see if the console plays it or not... Because the game was original and it was almost brand new.... I dunno more than this, i hope this is good info...
Post by: bonsc2 on December 22, 2007, 07:01:00 AM
Post by: GomerPyle on December 22, 2007, 07:44:00 AM
QUOTE(Garyfez @ Dec 22 2007, 12:02 PM)
When you get banned is it just gold members or a complete ban?
When you get banned your xbox cannot connect to the internet period, all you can do is play backups offline. Thats it no Silver no Gold no nothing when you are banned. Your xbox will cease to log in anymore and cease to get online period for anything, No Updates Natta!
This post has been edited by GomerPyle: Dec 22 2007, 03:45 PM
Post by: gust on December 22, 2007, 07:52:00 AM
QUOTE(bonsc2 @ Dec 22 2007, 04:01 PM)
What about the 12v mod where you get the powere from the dvd drive lead is that ok
I wonder about that too!
Post by: the_nerdy on December 22, 2007, 08:00:00 AM
If you don't know how to mod, you prob wouldn't have the fan mod either then now would you?
and they are not saying if you have a fan mod, you have firmware mod or something else.
It just shows wich console to raise a yellow flag and watch for.
That is it.
Post by: notrain on December 22, 2007, 07:28:00 AM
Sorry no way can I go along with the fan theory. What happens in areas with fluctuating mains supply voltages etc. I know the whole why MS bans is just theory but the 12v fan bit is a step too far. I would stake money on the fact that this is not a reason for one single ban.
The unbanning is still not confirmed as to why the unbanned machines were banned in the first place.
We may never know.
Maybe Ms is just trying to piss off everyone by varying the attacks.
I am not saying that I believe in that new theory, but your point does not disprove it. Fluctuating voltages from your wall outlet do not get "past" the powersupply, i.e. you could probably use that black brick anywhere from 95-125V (for US). As far as the Xbox360 Mainboard is concerned, the Voltages it receives shouldn't differ much, depending on the quality of the PSU. A High quality ATX PC Powersupply can be plugged into any wallsocket in the world, you don't even need 2 models for 110V (US) and 230V (Europe etc.), the Powersupply will supply the same voltages through the ATX Power Connector.
So, while I am not fully convinced by the merit of 12V Fanmod bannings, you are still wrong
.Post by: Charbless on December 22, 2007, 08:26:00 AM
QUOTE(GomerPyle @ Dec 22 2007, 04:44 PM)
When you get banned your xbox cannot connect to the internet period, all you can do is play backups offline. Thats it no Silver no Gold no nothing when you are banned. Your xbox will cease to log in anymore and cease to get online period for anything, No Updates Natta!
Untrue you can still get dash updates
Post by: wawnord on December 22, 2007, 08:33:00 AM
His Fans are running on 12 Volt at all Time without modding.
Whats now? MS couldn't ban him because of a broken Part in hin console.
I don't believe that MS bans Fanmodded Consoles.
The Hotlinesupporters are sooooo stupid...
3 Calls
3 different answers
3 People with more bread than brain in their heads.
80 percent of that what they say where wrong.
Supporter 1: Please Call Live Servie
ME: This is the live service
Supporter 1: Oh, yes..thats right..i see this on my screen now. Sorry I'm new in this Supportpart. I'm not trained in XBL yet.
Please make an new call and hope someone different is @ the Phone.
Holy SH***
whats wrong with this guys?
Supporter 2 was even not smarter
Supporter 2: There must something be wrong with the XBL Server.Please try to connect later this day.
Ähm.. no questions about Status or Errorcodes
Supporter 3 said that it is possible that a burned Game is theanswer.
I answered, i haven't modified something,
He said to me that i don't have to modifie somtethink to play Backups...
*NO COMMENT"
These people are sooo stupid...don't belevie anything from them.
Sorry about my bad english.
Hope you will understand everything
QUOTE(Charbless @ Dec 22 2007, 04:26 PM)
Untrue you can still get dash updates
No thats not true.
You cannot get updates if you are banned .this is fact.
Only with download it from the MS webpage and install it by a burnded CD or DVD
This post has been edited by wawnord: Dec 22 2007, 04:31 PM
Post by: ZakMcRofl on December 22, 2007, 08:35:00 AM
How about this: if you admit to modding your fan you admit to modifying your system which is a ban reason in theory, yes.
However as long as you don't admit to it they would NEVER implement a check on the fan volate or anything like that. Its not a foolproof check at all. They might (rightfully) deny you warranty in case of a RROD but other then that, you'll be fine with a fan mod.
This post has been edited by ZakMcRofl: Dec 22 2007, 04:46 PM
Post by: Xmodss on December 22, 2007, 09:25:00 AM
QUOTE(ZakMcRofl @ Dec 22 2007, 12:35 PM)
One stupid M$ employee claims that a fan mod will get you banned and the entire modding scene is in panic?
How about this: if you admit to modding your fan you admit to modifying your system which is a ban reason in theory, yes.
However as long as you don't admit to it they would NEVER implement a check on the fan volate or anything like that. Its not a foolproof check at all. They might (rightfully) deny you warranty in case of a RROD but other then that, you'll be fine with a fan mod.
ZakMcRofl this has been presented to use by more then one source, if it was just one person i'd be right with you saying b/s. you know me i'm the first one to tell anyone that they are talking out their as*. it is however a direct violation of the term of use under section 14
14. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT
The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer or by logging into your account via Xbox.com. You agree that you are using authorized software and hardware to access the Service, and that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., authorized repairs, upgrades and downloads) . Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the hardware or software associated with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft's systems or network security or this contract or any additional terms as described in Section 2 above, and such users may also incur criminal and/or civil liability.
Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; b. retrieve information from the original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, personal computer and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this Agreement; and © upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service or any game from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox, Xbox 360 console or personal computer, and which software may prevent you from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized peripheral devices.
This post has been edited by Xmodss: Dec 22 2007, 05:28 PM
Post by: andjelko on December 22, 2007, 09:33:00 AM
Is the Blaster 360 detectable??
also,
When I liquid cooled my 360 (got tired of fixing 3RLOD), the fans on the 360 run consistently at low speed. Gates could be looking at my xbox 360 fan speed and determine that hey - this guys been playing Gears for 5 hours - shouldn't his box be getting really hot and the fan voltage going up?
Post by: Chancer on December 22, 2007, 09:03:00 AM
QUOTE(notrain @ Dec 22 2007, 03:04 PM)
I am not saying that I believe in that new theory, but your point does not disprove it. Fluctuating voltages from your wall outlet do not get "past" the powersupply, i.e. you could probably use that black brick anywhere from 95-125V (for US). As far as the Xbox360 Mainboard is concerned, the Voltages it receives shouldn't differ much, depending on the quality of the PSU. A High quality ATX PC Powersupply can be plugged into any wallsocket in the world, you don't even need 2 models for 110V (US) and 230V (Europe etc.), the Powersupply will supply the same voltages through the ATX Power Connector.
So, while I am not fully convinced by the merit of 12V Fanmod bannings, you are still wrong
.Actually consider this. What happens to the base drive of the chopper if the voltage varies. The mark to space ratio is varied from the control IC. This attempts to maintain the correct output voltage to the primary winding of the chopper transformer but in doing so also alters the current that is drawn in the primary.
If the base drive to the chopper is reduced beyond a certain point the Secondary outputs rise.
A practical example I can give you is from a bog standard everyday repair of a TV. Ht voltage to the collector of the line output transistor can rise from a normal 140v (common ) to 220v (blows the transistor) all caused by variations in the primary of the power supply. You never had a mother board wrecked by a fault in the primary of a PC, causing the 5v and 12v rails to go through the roof?
The example I stated was a generalisation and I know the mains may not vary in most places to cause issues but you are wrong in believeing that mains Primary operating conditions do not affect secondary voltages and current drawn.
Post by: Xmodss on December 22, 2007, 09:41:00 AM
Post by: RBJTech on December 22, 2007, 09:14:00 AM
The standard fan connector IS monitored - it has to be so the temp of the CPU/GPU can alter the fan speed - this ranges from 5.4v (min) to ~11.5v (max). If you are modifying this connector directly, then perhaps reading a 12v to the fans can positively identify a mod (as this is impossible via the 'standard' setup).
That said, getting your fan power from say the primary 12v connectors or another 12v supply that is already in use (say the DVD power) then I see it as impossible for MS to identify this as a mod. If using the Fan Header - then again the BIOS 'may' be monitoring usage here - and going from 'unconnected' to '12v' may trigger a positive modification.
I'm not trying to trigger unnecessary alarm here but just stating electrical facts - in summary : if you 'tap' off an existing supply (ie you just increase the current draw on that supply) then it's highly unlikely MS will be able to detect it - if you modify the stock fan connector, fan header then they 'may' be able to.
My 2 pence worth ...
Post by: Chancer on December 22, 2007, 09:21:00 AM
I think it is merely scaremongering to put the rumour about.
I have this vision in my mind of everyone panicking and removing fans and such
Post by: RBJTech on December 22, 2007, 09:28:00 AM
QUOTE(Chancer @ Dec 22 2007, 04:57 PM)
There is no way they are going to this sort of trouble. Too many possible variations in voltage/current that are nothing to do with modding the hardware. They could end up banning boxes that have leaking decoupling caps on certain rails.
I think it is merely scaremongering to put the rumour about.
I have this vision in my mind of everyone panicking and removing fans and such
Agree 100% Chancer but was attempting to answer a few of the posts on fan headers etc
Personally, All my 360's are cooling modified and I don't propose to unmodify any of them...
Post by: Chancer on December 22, 2007, 10:27:00 AM
I do agree with you that the fans are not going to cost a ban to anyone.
I also think No way would customer service reps be given info on what MS categorise in order to decide on a ban.
Post by: ShaX5 on December 22, 2007, 10:28:00 AM
-ShaX
Post by: Chancer on December 22, 2007, 10:00:00 AM
QUOTE(ShaX5 @ Dec 22 2007, 05:28 PM)
WILL SOMEBODY TELL ME IF THE "Nyko Intercooler EX" is something MS will ban you for!!!???
-ShaX
Ring MS. Everything here is here say and speculation.
It wouldn't worry me and I would say no way will you be banned for it but the only ones who know the truth are MS
Post by: GamerBR on December 22, 2007, 10:47:00 AM
QUOTE(superost @ Dec 22 2007, 05:23 AM)
IMO there is a major difference between using a firmware hack and modding your fan speed/voltage.. Custom firmwares are a baaad business for MS, since people often use pirated games, even if custom firmwares are "meant" to be used for backups.. and we know that game sales are pretty important in this business.. I think that is pretty clear and that's why I actually understand MS, when they ban people from live who use custom firmwares. (Of course it's NOT fair, when people get banned even though their drive is clean from any modifications)
BUT how can a fan mod hurt MS in any way?.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) wrong strategy MS.. once again
Banning the users that made the 12v fan will eventually lead to a higher chance of the user getting a dead 360,so they will eventually buy a new 360(because they voided their warranty),that would eventually make them sell more consoles.That's the way they plan to win the nexgen war (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
Post by: bwolf417 on December 22, 2007, 10:51:00 AM
Post by: thiluxan_s on December 22, 2007, 11:00:00 AM
. I seriously dont think MS is banning people for fan mods.
Post by: Reaper527 on December 22, 2007, 11:02:00 AM
QUOTE(ShaX5 @ Dec 22 2007, 12:28 PM)
WILL SOMEBODY TELL ME IF THE "Nyko Intercooler EX" is something MS will ban you for!!!???
-ShaX
do intercoolers still occasionally brick the entire system, or has that been resolved with newer revisions? i've seen some pretty bad pics of a nyko intercooler burning the back of the system and totaling the console. that worries me a hell of a lot more than i xbl ban does.
Post by: ShaX5 on December 22, 2007, 11:22:00 AM
QUOTE(Reaper527 @ Dec 22 2007, 07:02 PM)
do intercoolers still occasionally brick the entire system, or has that been resolved with newer revisions? i've seen some pretty bad pics of a nyko intercooler burning the back of the system and totaling the console. that worries me a hell of a lot more than i xbl ban does.
The "Nyko Intercooler EX" is the fixed version and does not brick any consoles. Ive had mine for a few months and its been running great. I guess I will call MS and ask them if they use the EX as a reason for banning.
-ShaX
Post by: chinozzz on December 22, 2007, 11:43:00 AM
chinozzz
Post by: freezerburn31 on December 22, 2007, 12:49:00 PM
QUOTE(ZakMcRofl @ Dec 22 2007, 11:35 AM)
One stupid M$ employee claims that a fan mod will get you banned and the entire modding scene is in panic?
i would find it so funny if this is true and M$ is reading on the other end taking our own speculations of how they are banning us and actually start using those ideas to ban ppl with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
maybe they actually randomly banned ppl and then unbanned them just so that we would speculate on whats happening and they would get some great ideas out of it
Post by: linkinworm on December 22, 2007, 12:56:00 PM
Post by: nachomans on December 22, 2007, 01:15:00 PM
This post has been edited by nachomans: Dec 22 2007, 09:16 PM
Post by: Heet on December 22, 2007, 01:30:00 PM
-moved two capacitors in front of the cpu a few inches
-desoldered the rol board connector and extended it 6 inches
-
-added 3 fans
-added about 30 leds
-extended the dvd power cable about 5 inches
-mounted the motherboard on plexiglass with epoxied standoffs
-added a 4 probe temperature monitor
I really could care less if they ban me or not. Ive probably used live about 10 times in 2 years and its cost me 100$.
I think the whole thing is funny.
Post by: marscay on December 22, 2007, 01:35:00 PM
QUOTE(ShaX5 @ Dec 22 2007, 05:28 PM)
WILL SOMEBODY TELL ME IF THE "Nyko Intercooler EX" is something MS will ban you for!!!???
-ShaX
those things are a gimmick anyway, if you're consoles are constantly dying look at your setup don't attach a poxy noisy cooler which won't stop your box dying.
Post by: three11 on December 22, 2007, 01:50:00 PM
Was I unbanned?
He wasnt able to connect at all.
I checked this morning and Im still connected,
How do you explain this?
Post by: jc123rules on December 22, 2007, 02:26:00 PM
Post by: Devedander on December 22, 2007, 03:20:00 PM
QUOTE(arash89 @ Dec 22 2007, 02:50 PM)
Personally what i think is that microsoft saw a little change on my console and decided to see if it can read backups... So they made it look like a backup and wanted to see if the console plays it or not... Because the game was original and it was almost brand new.... I dunno more than this, i hope this is good info...
Pretty sure it's not... how would MS make it look like a backup? They can't really go in an physically alter the disc.....
Post by: SargeRock on December 22, 2007, 04:00:00 PM
QUOTE(nachomans @ Dec 22 2007, 03:15 PM)
Ohh..thats pretty simple...they could only check if your x360 gpu is under 105º celcius....that means is modded in any way... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
thats garbage because what if you live in a cold area or conditions or whatever, no that make no sense what-so ever.
Sarge
Post by: 000HcC000 on December 22, 2007, 04:32:00 PM
There are a few things that people don't seem to understand. So I'll explain. The challenge response table is comprised of the challenges, and the responses... the challenges are for checking certain areas of the disc. The way around this right now is by grabbing the proper responses during the backup process with a 360 drive and making a table of what the drive should respond with...the proper values, and then they're stored in a table within the ss.bin .
The c/r timings are the amount of time seeking data between certain sectors takes and expects a certain amount of time out of the stock firmware/drive hardware/ original disc for reading. There's a formula for this to convert to angles. So, if the drive inquires and c4eva's hacked firmware replies right away, because we already have the answer in a table, the timing is not right, so what c4eva does is figure out how long it takes to do each task, and then make the drive firmware respond at that same speed (very basic explanation). The "jitter" that people are talking about is just a variation in this response. The "proper" values for discs so far for the responses have been 0 90 180 and 270, and with hardware, this can vary. On SS rips from a 360 samsung drive you will find that each one of these varies, and the amount of times that it's actually 0,90,180,270 is low compared to others.
This process starts at the point of ripping the game because the values in our SS are the way the drive which ripped the game (which is supposed to emulate how the drive when in a 360 reads it) are comprised out of it. So, the reason kreon has to fake the values at these certain points is because the kreon drive most likely will not respond with the same info as the 360 samsung due to slight differences in hardware. If kreon did not replicate the timing of the 360 drive we would have values that only that specific drive would produce, which may not be correct since it is not a 360 drive. So 0 90 180 and 270 are hardcoded responses he put in, and he added "jitter" to it, because even microsoft knows that those exact responses don't happen every time. So if they did get those exact values every time, it would be detectable.
The whole issue with "bad" kreon rips, well, that's not actually true. In ixtreme firmware, +0/1 is added to the response for the same reason kreon added it. When you have a value of 359 and you add 1 to it, it should go back to 0 instead of 360, which is not valid, but ix was reporting back with 360, so that was detectable. It was not that 6701 was bad, it was how that value was handled. Because kreon made the response to vary, 0 was changed to 359 (6701) much more than an original samsung drive has been doing with more recent discs because of his adding -1 from 0 . But, after extensive testing, 360 drives were able to produce 359 on newer games, though it was a very insignificant amount of times comparatively (2 out of 500). C4eva wrapped values in 1.4 so it's fixed.
This is entirely dependent on the drive. This type of protection is/was used on pc games a lot, if you look up starforce you can find more info about similar processes, but the range for that is much much higher (+ or - 45 degrees). With the 360 drives, it has been found that bad drives can produce some pretty crazy angles, or just write 000000 in certain responses sometimes, and all over the place other times. These are produced with original 360 drives So really, it's a shotty way of detecting backup discs, might be a better way to detect shotty hardware though because surely they must know that a majority of the ss of backed up games have good values.
So overall
1) Should you do/keep the 12v fan mod? not if you want to play on live
2) should you use kreon checker for "bad" ss? yes if you're on anything other than 1.4, no if you're on 1.4. And that name should really be changed to 6701 checker because it can and has been produced by 360 drives, not just kreon.
3) why are bannings/unbannings happening? there is no way to know 100% why ms ever ban, only what can be done to prevent detection. The responses from bad drives is a very good reason why bannings could be happening to people who don't have modified firmware, there is also a lot more involved in the timings that could or could not be happening. It would be nice if people stayed away from speculating when it comes to who is or is not wrong, because it can piss people off who are doing the work.
This post has been edited by 000HcC000: Dec 23 2007, 12:37 AM
Post by: Chancer on December 22, 2007, 04:49:00 PM
QUOTE
The reason that this was even brought to people's attention is that the 12v mod is detectable and is a sure way for MS to see if you've opened your box. It is not confirmed that they are definitely banning based on this information only, because every person who's had this 12v mod that was banned ( that we know of) , has also had modified firmware, including the person who was told by ms he was banned for fan moding.
I have no idea what MS log or do not log. But this whole thing has stirred up over the top fear because people (some people) believe they are going to get banned for simply having a 12v fan mod.
No way on this earth MS CSRs have that information. Stop to think also that a CSR giving out this info may be spinning you a line. If CSRs had this info it would now be known exactly which conditions MS check
I will still put money on nobody will be banned for a fan mod alone.
People are aware the 360 monitors this stuff but the part they and I don't believe is MS implementing bans purely based on this one thing.
Edit
The rest of your post I can completely go with and I applaud the guys working with the firmware and looking at this but the bit about the fans should not have been thrown in until proven that this alone would cause an implemented ban.
This post has been edited by Chancer: Dec 23 2007, 01:37 AM
Post by: hobogoonie on December 22, 2007, 04:56:00 PM
Very informative, explained things very clearly. Thanks for your efforts.
Post by: HotKnife420 on December 22, 2007, 05:00:00 PM
QUOTE(arash89 @ Dec 22 2007, 02:50 PM) 
Something really weird happend to my brothers brand new xbox... I bought it in Sweden flashed it to 1.4, then i read about the ban-waves so i flashed it to its original fw just to be sure. Last night we we decided to play Call Of Duty 4 so i put the disc in... I get an error ".... To play this disk, put it in a Xbox 360 console", thats the same error i get when i tried a copied game with a 360 with original fw... I tried it a couple of times and i got the same error. Then i tried it 20 minutes later and it worked... I have no idea if it has to anything with this but it might help..
Personally what i think is that microsoft saw a little change on my console and decided to see if it can read backups... So they made it look like a backup and wanted to see if the console plays it or not... Because the game was original and it was almost brand new.... I dunno more than this, i hope this is good info...
No, what happened is your laser was having difficulty reading something vital to let it run the disc; possibly failed reading the SS, or something else. Either way, I've had many 360 repair calls that had this same problem . The solution is to either re-calibrate your laser, buy a new one, or tell MS to fix your poo poo (if it's still under warranty).
Post by: Christ666 on December 22, 2007, 05:23:00 PM
what is the xbox360's "error correct system"? its a way the xbox360 fills in a series of zeros 00 in place of other valid data in the event it has a conflict reading certain data.
towards the end of a laser's life cycle just like xmods stated, it will report 00 (null data, series of zeros) in place of other valid entries in certain sectors. laser gets older this happens more frequently, this could be a possible security hole for ms, or a added benefit for the scene.
how can we use this info? each security file, the ss for example has flexibility built in, we can literally fill in zeros (0000 null data) in many different sectors without interfering with a games playback function.
with a simple hex editor, and some time we can find the limits of the ECS system, and focus our efforts on the sectors that will not accept null data when reported to the xbox360. this opens up more ways to develop tools for the community
peace and prosperity
Post by: HotKnife420 on December 22, 2007, 05:29:00 PM
QUOTE(Chancer @ Dec 22 2007, 05:39 PM)
Actually consider this. What happens to the base drive of the chopper if the voltage varies. The mark to space ratio is varied from the control IC. This attempts to maintain the correct output voltage to the primary winding of the chopper transformer but in doing so also alters the current that is drawn in the primary.
If the base drive to the chopper is reduced beyond a certain point the Secondary outputs rise.
A practical example I can give you is from a bog standard everyday repair of a TV. Ht voltage to the collector of the line output transistor can rise from a normal 140v (common ) to 220v (blows the transistor) all caused by variations in the primary of the power supply. You never had a mother board wrecked by a fault in the primary of a PC, causing the 5v and 12v rails to go through the roof?
The example I stated was a generalisation and I know the mains may not vary in most places to cause issues but you are wrong in believeing that mains Primary operating conditions do not affect secondary voltages and current drawn.
THAT has got to be one of the best posts I've read. If nothing else can be said, you've laid some knowledge on my noggin!
I think you're right about this being blown out of proportion. Although some things said here are some wonderful "conspiracy theories" (make the modders buy more of our rushed product, etc).
Personally, my recently banned box is still a mystery to me on why it got banned; there's a few possibilities, but they seem slim in comparision to other reports; I wonder if one of my japanese backups would raise a flag to them (or an original, for that matter) in any way. I know it doesn't seem likely, but not many Japanese consoles are *in* the US, let alone on a US XBL account; MS could see a Japanese game being played, and assume that your Jap console with a US gamertag/windows live id is actually a US console, and assume you hacked it to play other region-locked games, or whatever. I do have a retail-only Japanese unit (X-Clamps removed, everything else is stock) that's still strong on XBL, so I guess if it gets banned, I'll know that's the case.
QUOTE(bwolf417 @ Dec 22 2007, 06:51 PM)
called ms they said it would cost me 99 dollars for them to fix my live ban. lol they also said if the xbox has been opened and modded they will keep the xbox but refund the 99 dollars. looks like i got to buy a new 1
I call bullshit on that one. First of all, $140 is the only "send it in to MS" price I've EVER heard of. Secondly, plenty of people have talked about sending in modded boxes, and still recieving one back (but that's fraud, and ILLEGAL). Lastly, if it has been opened and/or modded, it does not mean they are allowed to keep it (that's called theft), unless you expressly give them permission to have your xbox (can I have one too? I LOVE presents).
Post by: gundamhr on December 22, 2007, 06:44:00 PM
Post by: dj_adamix on December 22, 2007, 07:02:00 PM
QUOTE(gundamhr @ Dec 23 2007, 02:44 AM)
thought i was banned using benq and iXtreme 1.3. i called customer support and they said the servers were being updated today. should last another 3-4 hours....hmm i guess i'll go watch a movie...
yeah same thing here, it started disconnecting me and now i cant even log in. i hope its only that server update tho. i dont wanna be banned lol
Post by: skim12365 on December 22, 2007, 07:20:00 PM
Post by: p-niiice on December 22, 2007, 07:45:00 PM
My 360 is brand new, booted on live once, then got iextreme 1.4. I haven't played any backups with the cable in at all. I'm I safe if I keep doing this?
Post by: Futurism on December 22, 2007, 07:52:00 PM
QUOTE(p-niiice @ Dec 23 2007, 02:45 AM)
Sorry for the noob post, but if I play backups with the cable completely unplugged, I'm safe, right? There were a couple of people who reported that they never played "on live" and got banned. I assume that this is a completely online process, and that these people did something wrong. I believe that they left the cable plugged in and were logged in, but didn't PLAY online.
My 360 is brand new, booted on live once, then got iextreme 1.4. I haven't played any backups with the cable in at all. I'm I safe if I keep doing this?
Not entirely. It could be the 360 logs what you play and C/Rs to send to Live next time you log in.
Post by: HotKnife420 on December 22, 2007, 07:59:00 PM
QUOTE(Futurism @ Dec 23 2007, 03:52 AM)
Not entirely. It could be the 360 logs what you play and C/Rs to send to Live next time you log in.
Didn't somebody dump the NAND before and after playing a non-stealth backup and confirm no difference? Correct me if I'm wrong.
On a different note, I tried connecting my recently banned console (which after being banned I changed to xtreme 2.4) today, and the LIVE test still failed, but the 190D is now 0000. Does this mean I'm flagged for unbanning? I shouldn't be server troubles, since my stock box connects to live just fine.
*edit* I just checked against a console that was banned in the first wave (back in may), it returns 0000 now, too; perhaps it is a server issue...
Post by: Futurism on December 22, 2007, 08:27:00 PM
Xbox.com forums are rife with people asking about the 0000 code. Both my consoles (unmodded Hitachi & iXtreme 1.4 Samsung) had been returning that code until I could miraculously log on about an hour ago.
In regards to the NAND, I've missed this news but if so that's good news I guess. Rules out one thing.
Post by: kaizzen23 on December 22, 2007, 08:35:00 PM
1 Person from another site claimed an employee @ MS said "blah blah"... This talk substantiates into news and we have concluded this is what could also be causing bans.
Post by: Digital_sin on December 22, 2007, 08:38:00 PM
QUOTE(HotKnife420 @ Dec 23 2007, 04:59 AM)
Didn't somebody dump the NAND before and after playing a non-stealth backup and confirm no difference? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Dunno about this, but it could be logging to the hard disk. I noticed something really strange after I modded one of my 360s.
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=634841&st=0&gopid=4181963&#entry4181963
I'm not really sure if anyone even did dump NAND or make hard drive images and compare them before and after modding. It could be a rumor that "someone" did do it and we're just spreading it around.
Post by: Devedander on December 22, 2007, 08:48:00 PM
QUOTE(Digital_sin @ Dec 23 2007, 04:38 AM)
Dunno about this, but it could be logging to the hard disk. I noticed something really strange after I modded one of my 360s.
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=634841&st=0&gopid=4181963&#entry4181963
I'm not really sure if anyone even did dump NAND or make hard drive images and compare them before and after modding. It could be a rumor that "someone" did do it and we're just spreading it around.
The same sort of test was run on hard drives and no differences found... the only hole I can think of still existing is if somehow a flag is set in RAM... RAM is volitile and looses all info when power is lost, however I wouldn't put it past MS to somehow keep the RAM powered (kind of like sending the 360 into a sleep mode) to hold a flag...
Post by: ranova on December 22, 2007, 09:35:00 PM
QUOTE(SargeRock @ Dec 23 2007, 12:00 AM)
thats garbage because what if you live in a cold area or conditions or whatever, no that make no sense what-so ever.
Sarge
hi, this is called sarcasm....
Post by: -PK- on December 22, 2007, 10:12:00 PM
If they wanted to detect and ban for opening the 360, they would have added security sensors all around inside the case.
Also just because they can ban based on their own EULA or TOS, doesn't mean that they can't also get in deep trouble for making abusive EULA's or TOS if they decided to enforce it over every little thing such as a fan mod. As long as a mod is not breaking the law, copyrights, patents, or DMCA you are free to modify your own property as you see fit, any EULA or TOS that says otherwise would be debatable at best in court.
This post has been edited by -PK-: Dec 23 2007, 06:24 AM
Post by: freezerburn31 on December 22, 2007, 10:35:00 PM
QUOTE(Devedander @ Dec 22 2007, 11:48 PM)
The same sort of test was run on hard drives and no differences found... the only hole I can think of still existing is if somehow a flag is set in RAM... RAM is volitile and looses all info when power is lost, however I wouldn't put it past MS to somehow keep the RAM powered (kind of like sending the 360 into a sleep mode) to hold a flag...
if this is true then simply unplugging and plugging back in the xbox should fix that i'm pretty sure theres no batteries that can keep the ram info unless theres a capacitor holding enough charge to keep it for a period of time
Post by: Iriez on December 22, 2007, 11:08:00 PM
QUOTE(darylzero @ Dec 22 2007, 12:52 AM)
This whole little "update" is total conjecture. Is there any kind of proof that says MS was checking kreon properties and disc jitter? If not, than why assume that was why they started unbanning people (the bad laser theory)? The whole 'you CAN get banned from a fan mod....where is the proof anyone has EVER been banned for that? I am surprised this was posted as news on the front page of x-s.
There is never proof.
There is only analyzation of data to interpret MS's actions. We log live actions, we can tell what they are checking as far as the disc routines. They grab the SS, which contains c/r values. They have recently changed the c/r timings on discs (fact) so why would they suddenly do that unless they planned on starting to measure accuracy of timings to use for ban criteria?
Yes, everything is speculative, but regardless, there are rational conclusions, and there are conspiracy theories. We base our conclusions on large amounts of collected data.
As far as the fan mod, you people are taking it out of context. Those 3rd party add-on's will be no problem. but if you rewire your fan to a 12v power source, that MAY be a problem as you are physically altering the xbox360's hardware, which breaks the TOA.
And, as i stated, a trusted source was told directly by a MS customer rep that they were banned due to a altered fan. It cant get more clear than that.
Will they ban everyone with a altered fan? Who the hell knows. I dont, no one else does. We dont know exactly what they will or will not do, we can only provide evidence, and speculate.
So stop giving me or x-s a hard time for bringing you information. If you want to sit in your basement and be ignorant of all going on's, then thats fine, but dont bother me.
Post by: 000HcC000 on December 22, 2007, 11:36:00 PM
And yes, some things are missing from types 5 and 7 now, there is nothing conclusive on why, but I have some ideas. Since it would probably cause mass chaos, I'll keep them to myself.
Post by: KeptoKnight on December 23, 2007, 03:30:00 AM
In other words.....Microsoft found out that its a bit more difficult and riskier,"trying to figure out if you have a modified firmware" correct?
Is that the real deal?
Post by: lazzeri on December 23, 2007, 05:26:00 AM
QUOTE(Devedander @ Dec 23 2007, 12:48 AM)
The same sort of test was run on hard drives and no differences found... the only hole I can think of still existing is if somehow a flag is set in RAM... RAM is volitile and looses all info when power is lost, however I wouldn't put it past MS to somehow keep the RAM powered (kind of like sending the 360 into a sleep mode) to hold a flag...
There´s something i´ve been thinking for a while: What about e-fuses? I´ve read somewhere that there are a lot of e-fuses that MS can blow. What if they´re blowing one of them as a "flag"? If so, it wouldn´t matter if your cable is plugged or not, or even if you had a HDD on: As soon as you log again it would be effordless to ban.
Please be kind, i know i´m speculating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
This post has been edited by lazzeri: Dec 23 2007, 01:32 PM
Post by: -PK- on December 23, 2007, 06:33:00 AM
QUOTE(lazzeri @ Dec 23 2007, 01:26 PM)
There´s something i´ve been thinking for a while: What about e-fuses? I´ve read somewhere that there are a lot of e-fuses that MS can blow. What if they´re blowing one of them as a "flag"? If so, it wouldn´t matter if your cable is plugged or not, or even if you had a HDD on: As soon as you log again it would be effordless to ban.
Please be kind, i know i´m speculating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
This has been tested already. Also this would have been an unreliabable method in the event that they had to unban someone, else we could just unban ourselves (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
This post has been edited by -PK-: Dec 23 2007, 02:36 PM
Post by: chango on December 23, 2007, 06:38:00 AM
QUOTE(Iriez @ Dec 23 2007, 07:08 AM)
They have recently changed the c/r timings on discs (fact) so why would they suddenly do that unless they planned on starting to measure accuracy of timings to use for ban criteria?
With this known, wouldn't it be safe to state and inform the masses that backups on Live are 100% unsafe? Of course its always at your own risk and an all around bad idea, but I haven't seen any mention of the fact that there is new data which is being measured and until a new firmware all backups are returning just the information MS wants to justify a ban? Also, where's C4E been? Any speculation on a tentative release window?
Sorry to restate facts (?) but a whole lot of people are operating under the assumption that Xtreme 1.4 and good CRC is "safe"
Post by: lazzeri on December 23, 2007, 06:39:00 AM
QUOTE(-PK- @ Dec 23 2007, 10:33 AM)
Also this would have been an unreliabable method in the event that they had to unban someone, else we could just unban ourselves (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Thanks for the heads-up! :-)
I was thinking more on a flag like "add this bastard to the server banlist" so it wasn´t just unblow it to get back. But i got your point. ;-)
Abs,
Lazzeri
Post by: Ichisuke on December 23, 2007, 07:37:00 AM
Post by: arash89 on December 23, 2007, 08:01:00 AM
QUOTE(HotKnife420 @ Dec 23 2007, 02:00 AM)
No, what happened is your laser was having difficulty reading something vital to let it run the disc; possibly failed reading the SS, or something else. Either way, I've had many 360 repair calls that had this same problem . The solution is to either re-calibrate your laser, buy a new one, or tell MS to fix your poo poo (if it's still under warranty).
But the 360 is brand new... Its been working fine since then so there shouldnt be any problem? or do i still have to fix it?
Post by: Havok on December 23, 2007, 10:08:00 AM
QUOTE(chango @ Dec 23 2007, 08:38 AM)
With this known, wouldn't it be safe to state and inform the masses that backups on Live are 100% unsafe? Of course its always at your own risk and an all around bad idea, but I haven't seen any mention of the fact that there is new data which is being measured and until a new firmware all backups are returning just the information MS wants to justify a ban? Also, where's C4E been? Any speculation on a tentative release window?
Sorry to restate facts (?) but a whole lot of people are operating under the assumption that Xtreme 1.4 and good CRC is "safe"
First of all... this has ALWAYS been stated. Using backups on Live is against the TOS and against the policies of this board.
Second.. what would guys do if C4E never released another firmware ever again? Not to lump everyone together, nor chango,.. but there are a lot of very ungrateful people that are expecting alot..leave the poor guy alone. Speculation just gets everyone amped up and is useless. What if there is no fix that he can make? Sometimes all the holes are closed in a system.
Third.. Maybe YOU are acting under that assuption but for 2 years I have been reminding people (and its been in my sig) that you mod you system YOU are taking a real risk. Anyone that bitches at C4E or even Microsoft for that matter should get their head out of their ass. No one is forcing anyone to make modifications to a system.
Post by: Iriez on December 23, 2007, 11:31:00 AM
QUOTE(chango @ Dec 23 2007, 08:38 AM)
With this known, wouldn't it be safe to state and inform the masses that backups on Live are 100% unsafe? Of course its always at your own risk and an all around bad idea, but I haven't seen any mention of the fact that there is new data which is being measured and until a new firmware all backups are returning just the information MS wants to justify a ban? Also, where's C4E been? Any speculation on a tentative release window?
Sorry to restate facts (?) but a whole lot of people are operating under the assumption that Xtreme 1.4 and good CRC is "safe"
There is no need for a new firmware. A proper backup will work just fine on ixtreme 1.4. As far as i can tell, it is about as safe as it is having a unmodified 360 at this point. c4e's around, and poking at things here and there.
<c4eva> just an interesting thing i have noticed in regards to live checks, if you have parental lock on with live disabled and the network cable in, there is reduced checks, same as no network cable, good for single player games when no live is needed! in effect reducing the area of attack for MS
Thats the latest little cookie he's found. No, i dont know what exactly is reduced, nor do I really care since its single player, offline gaming.
At this point, its obvious MS doesnt know what the hell they are doing, since unomdded consoles are getting banned aswell as modified consoles. Its apparent they are using media authentication related routines to determine ban status, and that normal unmodded consoles are getting zapped too. This ban wave was very risky for MS to do, and who knows if all those innocent users will ever get their xbox unbanned.
Post by: SNAAAKE on December 23, 2007, 12:33:00 PM
QUOTE(thiluxan_s @ Dec 22 2007, 01:00 PM)
I have a launch 360 with a 12v fan mod and a Hitachi drive with iXtreme 1.2. I am still playing on LIVE (IMG:style_emoticons/default/jester.gif) . I seriously dont think MS is banning people for fan mods.
I have an XCM case with green lights and stuff..still not banned (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)
Post by: 000HcC000 on December 23, 2007, 12:34:00 PM
Post by: notrain on December 23, 2007, 12:38:00 PM
QUOTE(Chancer @ Dec 22 2007, 05:39 PM)
Actually consider this. What happens to the base drive of the chopper if the voltage varies. The mark to space ratio is varied from the control IC. This attempts to maintain the correct output voltage to the primary winding of the chopper transformer but in doing so also alters the current that is drawn in the primary.
If the base drive to the chopper is reduced beyond a certain point the Secondary outputs rise.
A practical example I can give you is from a bog standard everyday repair of a TV. Ht voltage to the collector of the line output transistor can rise from a normal 140v (common ) to 220v (blows the transistor) all caused by variations in the primary of the power supply. You never had a mother board wrecked by a fault in the primary of a PC, causing the 5v and 12v rails to go through the roof?
The example I stated was a generalisation and I know the mains may not vary in most places to cause issues but you are wrong in believeing that mains Primary operating conditions do not affect secondary voltages and current drawn.
Sorry for replying so late, it's X-Mas time -> very stressful less time to put my tinfoil hat on and geek on the interwebs :/.
No, I have never had a motherboard die on me because of that. They usually died because of reckless overclocking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). I can see that you are quite experienced in these matters, but I still don't see how Microsoft could mistakenly ban a console for what you wrote above. Maybe I misunderstood you a bit (english is not my native language) but if the power output from your wallsocket varied constantly and -in addition to that- your PSU would be faulty enough to let these variations through to your motherboard, then there wouldn't be anything left to ban, because the console would be dead before the banhammer could fall.
For the record, I personally think these last bans were a mixture of old remains (may '07) and the Jitter Detection, nothing else. It will probably be another 6 months before Microsoft has devised a new plan to detect 1.4. While the hackers can release a new firmware after a couple of days after its detection, Microsoft has to reverse engineer a new detection, then alter its production methods so newer discs will be vulnerable et cetera... a behemoth doesn't change easily, it's not a cat and mouse game anymore.
Post by: Devedander on December 23, 2007, 12:44:00 PM
QUOTE(freezerburn31 @ Dec 23 2007, 06:35 AM)
if this is true then simply unplugging and plugging back in the xbox should fix that i'm pretty sure theres no batteries that can keep the ram info unless theres a capacitor holding enough charge to keep it for a period of time
Yes, people who unplug their system after playing a bakup would be safe from this angle...
But while I haven't ever seen this particular angle debunked I would think it if was happening those who know would have found out by now so I am not worrying too much about it.
This post has been edited by Devedander: Dec 23 2007, 08:45 PM
Post by: Chancer on December 23, 2007, 12:58:00 PM
QUOTE(notrain @ Dec 23 2007, 07:38 PM)
Sorry for replying so late, it's X-Mas time -> very stressful less time to put my tinfoil hat on and geek on the interwebs :/.
No, I have never had a motherboard die on me because of that. They usually died because of reckless overclocking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). I can see that you are quite experienced in these matters, but I still don't see how Microsoft could mistakenly ban a console for what you wrote above. Maybe I misunderstood you a bit (english is not my native language) but if the power output from your wallsocket varied constantly and -in addition to that- your PSU would be faulty enough to let these variations through to your motherboard, then there wouldn't be anything left to ban, because the console would be dead before the banhammer could fall.
For the record, I personally think these last bans were a mixture of old remains (may '07) and the Jitter Detection, nothing else. It will probably be another 6 months before Microsoft has devised a new plan to detect 1.4. While the hackers can release a new firmware after a couple of days after its detection, Microsoft has to reverse engineer a new detection, then alter its production methods so newer discs will be vulnerable et cetera... a behemoth doesn't change easily, it's not a cat and mouse game anymore.
The examples I gave were extreme ones and failure is the result of large variations or often faulty power supplies. They were used just to give the example that the secondary voltages do not always remian the same regardless of the primary PSU operating conditions.
The simplified point is secondary voltage rails and current drawn can vary due to changes in the primary power supply. It is the same with any switch mode or for that matter blocking oscillator power supply.
These variations if being monitored by MS could trigger a false positive and result in a ban. That was the reason I cannot see MS would be daft enough to ban on this type of check alone.
Don't worry about the late reply I know what it is like this time of year. Very busy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pop.gif)
Post by: dbldown768 on December 23, 2007, 01:41:00 PM
If they say a fan may ban you, then remove it. If you don't thats your decision, they are just trying to help save you from buying a new console. My opinion, the console has enough hardware problems as it is, i just want to change it as little as possible.
Post by: Hercules Man on December 23, 2007, 03:34:00 PM
H MAn
Post by: Caduceus on December 23, 2007, 05:27:00 PM
Anyway, now I've bought another 360 for nothing
Post by: briderx on December 23, 2007, 06:03:00 PM
Micro_oft NEEDS YOU TO BE ONLINE in order for you to be banned. I had my console over a year now and had avoided ALL bans so far. I had done this, simply by guesstimating when the ban hammer was going to hit (near all major holidays, and near major update releases (spring/fall). and unplugging my 360 from the internet. I have NEVER played a game online, and had always maintained the "XBox Silver Membership". It wasn't until the 16th that I accidently left the cable plugged in (was leaving it unplugged from the 12th - after New Years.)
I know this might seem like a stretch, but think about this: My neighbor, who has a 360, modded EXACTLY the same as mine (forget which firmware it is, but I believe it was the one that matched the MS26, I don't remember for sure).. Anyways, he has only plugged his in to receive updates. Otherwise, his is always disconnected. He has access to the same games that I play and not once have I checked any game using the "Kreon" checker or whatever it's called. Either way, his is unbanned, mine is banned.
So, I leave this info up for anyone to mock, criticize or bash. And for everyone else, I hope this helps!
As for a list of games that I have played that may/may not pass is too long to list.
Post by: Digital_sin on December 23, 2007, 06:22:00 PM
QUOTE(briderx @ Dec 24 2007, 03:03 AM)
Alright, here's how I think it is:
Micro_oft NEEDS YOU TO BE ONLINE in order for you to be banned. I had my console over a year now and had avoided ALL bans so far. I had done this, simply by guesstimating when the ban hammer was going to hit (near all major holidays, and near major update releases (spring/fall). and unplugging my 360 from the internet. I have NEVER played a game online, and had always maintained the "XBox Silver Membership". It wasn't until the 16th that I accidently left the cable plugged in (was leaving it unplugged from the 12th - after New Years.)
I know this might seem like a stretch, but think about this: My neighbor, who has a 360, modded EXACTLY the same as mine (forget which firmware it is, but I believe it was the one that matched the MS26, I don't remember for sure).. Anyways, he has only plugged his in to receive updates. Otherwise, his is always disconnected. He has access to the same games that I play and not once have I checked any game using the "Kreon" checker or whatever it's called. Either way, his is unbanned, mine is banned.
So, I leave this info up for anyone to mock, criticize or bash. And for everyone else, I hope this helps!
As for a list of games that I have played that may/may not pass is too long to list.
so what you're basicly saying is the only way to avoid a ban is to ban ourselves from live and never log in except for downloading the updates?
Post by: briderx on December 23, 2007, 06:29:00 PM
QUOTE(Digital_sin @ Dec 23 2007, 05:22 PM)
so what you're basicly saying is the only way to avoid a ban is to ban ourselves from live and never log in except for downloading the updates?
No, that's not what I'm saying. Someone earlier posted "don't play backups on live".. As stated above, I have NEVER played a backup on live. Not once. So, it seems that IF you decide to play a backup, in my own experience, don't play while connected to any portion of their service. Like I had said, I did this for a little over a year and had no problems. But the ONE time I left it plugged in, I got banned.
Post by: drec on December 23, 2007, 06:46:00 PM
Post by: flash360 on December 23, 2007, 07:00:00 PM
I'v had peep's come to me with their supposedly new 360's to get them modded, only to find it's a refurb.
I can tell because the date on the case is quite recent but the drive is about a year older.
Now what if someone recieved one of these refurbs which was sent in lookin original so not checked by ms for fw, but was actually flashed and the owner didnt even know it and didn't play any backups but their originals gave the bad angle. Ok it would be very rare, but couple the bad angle with an undisputable fan mod (presuming they can read the voltage or speed from the bios) and legaly they are sound.
I also think a lot of these banned boxes are left overs from the first wave.
ps3 released = gonna beat the 360 for monthly sales.
ANS = ban some modders and watch the suckers go and buy a new one.
ps3's first christmass = woah might be a close one
ANS = ban some more 360's and watch the suckers go buy another one
Cant fault their logic really (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
Also I checked my rips with kreon checker, the only bad one I found that I have deffo played on live was forza 2 and that one was about 6 months ago I played it about 3 times on live. Just thought id mention it in case it helps figure out how long they been lookin for this.
Oh yeah im not banned lol
This post has been edited by flash360: Dec 24 2007, 03:01 AM
Post by: shlipshlip on December 23, 2007, 08:40:00 PM
QUOTE(Iriez @ Dec 23 2007, 07:08 AM)
There is never proof.
There is only analyzation of data to interpret MS's actions. We log live actions, we can tell what they are checking as far as the disc routines. They grab the SS, which contains c/r values. They have recently changed the c/r timings on discs (fact) so why would they suddenly do that unless they planned on starting to measure accuracy of timings to use for ban criteria?
Yes, everything is speculative, but regardless, there are rational conclusions, and there are conspiracy theories. We base our conclusions on large amounts of collected data.
As far as the fan mod, you people are taking it out of context. Those 3rd party add-on's will be no problem. but if you rewire your fan to a 12v power source, that MAY be a problem as you are physically altering the xbox360's hardware, which breaks the TOA.
And, as i stated, a trusted source was told directly by a MS customer rep that they were banned due to a altered fan. It cant get more clear than that.
Will they ban everyone with a altered fan? Who the hell knows. I dont, no one else does. We dont know exactly what they will or will not do, we can only provide evidence, and speculate.
So stop giving me or x-s a hard time for bringing you information. If you want to sit in your basement and be ignorant of all going on's, then thats fine, but dont bother me.
When you said they changed the c/r timings on the disks, you're talking about how when ripping from kreon it'll usually rip a bad SS with the new disks..right? That was fixed with ixtreme 1.4 for now, am i correct? or are you talking about something else?
Post by: sith on December 24, 2007, 01:05:00 AM
QUOTE(dbldown768 @ Dec 23 2007, 09:41 PM)
i just wish everyone could keep the speculation and guess work down. all these posts of people "thinking" what may have happened doesn't help, and just confuses users on the board. Please leave the technical speculation and talk to all the technical people who have been a huge help to the scene. I would like to thank X-S for posting as must news as possible on the front page, along with all the hard work put in to making the scene what it is today.
This is called a "message board" or "forum" which by definition is "a web application for holding discussions and posting user generated content." If you don't want user generated discussions stick to the news page and CNN...but no one should "keep the speculation and guess work down." as it is only through speculation and rational deduction that this scene exists.. also if you condone the "technical" people talking about technical matters then where may it exist, if not in the Technical DVD-ROM and Modified DVD Firmware Forum?
QUOTE(dbldown768 @ Dec 23 2007, 09:41 PM)
If they say a fan may ban you, then remove it. If you don't thats your decision, they are just trying to help save you from buying a new console. My opinion, the console has enough hardware problems as it is, i just want to change it as little as possible.
ridiculous comments.... thats like saying if "GM says "don't rust proof your car you have to let it rot", if you don't heed their advice and you protect your car then they could ban you from getting service that only they could offer you such as engine computer programming, forcing you to purchase another car and saying GM only tried to help you.. while they are within their rights as no one forced you to by a GM over another company that allows rust proofing(as ms is within their rights to ban for breach of TOS) to say they should be able to have whatever policies and actions that they want without question from the public and remain fault free is crazy. Also for an X-S genius you've not figured out that if you "want to change [your 360] as little as possible" you are in the wrong place my friend...while you should do or not do whatever it is you want, please don't come to an enthusiasts forum and request we change our ways...
anyway... my box is still banned with 19OD code and i think the community can over come this as well. lets hear from the infamous UN-BANNED ones..
.sith.
Post by: scienide on December 24, 2007, 05:38:00 AM
What if u didnt watch xbox-scene or u dont follow the xbox related news on the web? It is possible for people to have a xbox360 lying around which isnt banned anymore but because they are not provided with information on the unbannings they will never find out the xbox is unbanned.
I have one xbox banned during the first wave. I use it in the bedroom for watching videos and playing some games, but i have never thought of re signing into live until i read the news on xbox-scene.
Also i think the unbannings will only have reflect on the ones who got a ban based on a false angle returned.
I am waiting for some replies of unbanned people... !
btw: this is very good news. Originals returning false data means one less way of microsoft detecting a backup
Post by: notrain on December 24, 2007, 09:37:00 AM
QUOTE(Chancer @ Dec 23 2007, 08:58 PM)
The examples I gave were extreme ones and failure is the result of large variations or often faulty power supplies. They were used just to give the example that the secondary voltages do not always remian the same regardless of the primary PSU operating conditions.
The simplified point is secondary voltage rails and current drawn can vary due to changes in the primary power supply. It is the same with any switch mode or for that matter blocking oscillator power supply.
These variations if being monitored by MS could trigger a false positive and result in a ban. That was the reason I cannot see MS would be daft enough to ban on this type of check alone.
Don't worry about the late reply I know what it is like this time of year. Very busy
I see your point. You are right, they couldn't be 100% sure to ban a modder by reading voltages from the BIOS, but then again, they apparently cannot be 100% sure to ban a modder with their disc checks either
. Maybe they really do use the BIOS idea in conjunction with their disc checks (too many errors on the disc checks + strange 12V readings = ban), who knows? Anyway, merry christmas to everyone, don't let the banhammer get to you .Post by: MrFish on December 24, 2007, 03:37:00 PM
QUOTE(Iriez @ Dec 23 2007, 07:08 AM)
As far as the fan mod, you people are taking it out of context. Those 3rd party add-on's will be no problem. but if you rewire your fan to a 12v power source, that MAY be a problem as you are physically altering the xbox360's hardware, which breaks the TOA.
I'm not so sure: There's no way in hell the 360 has a tiny voltmeter on the fan to tell what voltage it's being run at, so modification must be detected in a more indirect manner. Voltage drop on the 12v line/lack of drop on the 5v line is equally silly. The obvious things to be detecting are fan speed (does it have a sensor wire? If so, drop a clock-divider in the middle.) and the temperature of the components it cools.
Detecting the latter means that an intercooler (or, indeed, a duct to the outside) will get you banned too. Detecting the former means that an intercooler is fine, unless its airflow happens to interact with the internal fan in a suspicious way (It's certainly going to interact with the fan in some way, but will it push it past a manufacturing tolerance?).
As to Intercoolers and Live's TOS: while the obvious way to infringe the TOS is to infringe the clause 'and that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way', there's also 'You agree that you are using authorized software and hardware to access the Service'. Is a random third-party add-on 'authorized hardware'? Ask a civil court.
So, if you do get banned for using an external device, you're probably not banned-banned, just have-to-go-and-beg/threaten-microsoft-to-unban-you-banned. But I imagine it would still be a big pain in the arse. And it would be a cracking way to get rid of users where there's suspicion, but no conclusive proof, that the box has been opened: "just ship it back to us so's we can check, and we'll unban you".
Post by: MrFish on December 24, 2007, 03:19:00 PM
QUOTE(syntaxerror329 @ Dec 22 2007, 06:21 AM)
Wow I just came here to post a message on this exact topic.
Current:
Talismoon Fan 160mA - Original Fan: 250mA
Speed: 4100RPM - Original Fan: 4600RPM
I have had a customer ask me to order a fan and install it. I have it right here. He does not have the firmware hack mainly because he fears being banned. Now i feel i have to tell him that he might get banned.
Does anyone know if i could add a resistor to somehow make the Talismoon appear to be drawing 250mA? I am sure some of you tech geeks here can figure this out with ohms law.
There's no way they're measuring the fan's current draw. That's just nuts. Fans are dynamic loads, so the current drawn will be all-over the shop. You'd have to average it, which would mean hardware just to read the fan current.
Anyway, this isn't really a techie question, but a GCSE physics one:
If we assume that the fan is a resistor (which it isn't), and it draws 160mA from a 5V rail, that means its 'resistance' is 5/0.16 = 31.25 ohms. The original fan was 5/0.25 = 20 ohms. So, we need to construct a resistor network with a total resistance of 20 ohms. We do this by putting a resistor of value x in parallel with the fan, such that the total resistance becomes 20 ohms.
For resistors in parallel, 1/Rt = 1/R1 + 1/R2... +1/Rn.
1/20 = 1/31.25 + 1/x; 1/x = 1/20 - 1/31.25; 1/x = 0.018; x = 55.55555.... .
So, we stick a sixty-ohm resistor in parallel with the fan, and now the fan header draws 0.25 amps again.
Or at least it would if the fan were a resistor, which it isn't.
QUOTE(syntaxerror329 @ Dec 22 2007, 06:21 AM)
Then microsoft will probably say we banned you becuase your fan is going 5000 RPM too slow. LOL
Way, way more likely. Obvious solution: keep both fan types in, and feed the 360 the sensor wire from the original. Other suggestion: pot it from the twelve-volt line, and set the voltage so you get the correct RPM. Easiest way to measure would be to graft the sense wire onto a disused PC's motherboard.
Post by: ShaX5 on December 24, 2007, 04:50:00 PM
-ShaX
Post by: Chancer on December 24, 2007, 05:00:00 PM
Nothing else modded, no firmware just a FAN MOD?
Even if you were unbanned subsequently.
Post by: ydgmms on December 24, 2007, 05:00:00 PM
Oh. I also have another fan running at 7V, 12V-5V.
iXtreme 1.3A (Couldn't update to 1.4 - but all my backups are ripped myself and pass all checks including kreon checker)
This post has been edited by ydgmms: Dec 25 2007, 01:06 AM
Post by: Iriez on December 24, 2007, 11:27:00 PM
QUOTE(darylzero @ Dec 24 2007, 04:39 PM)
I don't even know who you are. My problem with the post was the tone of it as well as "information" that could be perceived incorrectly. Look at how many people are talking about Nyko fan mods when all you meant was actual fans added via the motherboard.
I would think that the question everyone wants answered is - Can you go online (right now) with perfect backup discs (everything CRC wise, Kreon wise, and everything else checks out) and not be banned?
I know someone that has iextreme v1.0 flashed since the first banhammer and he is still active.
He would like to know whether he can play perfect backups online as of right now and not be banned.
Oh yeah, and don't tell me to not give x-s or you a hard time. If you get that pissy at someone speaking his mind, then you need to take a step back and kill yourself.
Merry Christmas everyone!Congratulations on not knowing who I am. However, if you have bothered to read x-s news for the past 3-4 years, I post quite frequently.
I *specifically* stated in my post
QUOTE
You CAN have your console banned for having a 12v fan mod
I very specifically stated '12v' in my post. I did not say 'nyko' coolers, or '3rd party addons'. This is a xbox modding site, and if you read it and you dont know wtf your doing, then its your own fault that your ignorance leads you to believe other than what it really is. I do not condone, nor do I cater, to such crowds.
To answer your question...
I have already answered it. Read this thread, because it contains much valuable information that I have posted. If you cannot come to your answer from my posts, then dont bother reading or responding to any more of my threads.
Remember, we dont get pissy at people speaking their minds, we get pissy when people dont bother to read the relevent information we have spent our valuable time posting, and instead post again and again asking for us to repost that information solely for YOUR information.
QUOTE(ydgmms @ Dec 24 2007, 07:00 PM)
Nil for me. I've been running Talismoons in my Xbox since pre-Ban Wav #1. It did get banned though, but I bet it was the NME chip. The Talismoon is in another Xbox that has yet to be banned. It was stock, then when iXtreme 1.0 came out, its been that. So I doubt they're banning for FANS... thats just crazy talk.
Oh. I also have another fan running at 7V, 12V-5V.
iXtreme 1.3A (Couldn't update to 1.4 - but all my backups are ripped myself and pass all checks including kreon checker)
As crazy as it sounds, it came directly from a xbox live customer rep's mouth.
Now, could this just be a uninformed or ignorant customer rep? Possibly. Really bad day and pulling shit through his teeth? Likely.
But, i never discount what these retards tell me if they say it straight out like that, no matter how insane it sounds.
Post by: ghettoc401 on December 25, 2007, 11:59:00 AM
It would be one thing for the rep to just say it and it were'nt true, but he said that he was banned for having modded his fans, and he in fact did have his fans hooked up to a 12v source. I dont thinks its a weird coincidence either.
I think its a dumb reason to ban people, but they seem to be able to detect it because the rep was quick to tell our trusted source why he was banned.
This post has been edited by ghettoc401: Dec 25 2007, 08:02 PM
Post by: Digital_sin on December 25, 2007, 12:36:00 PM
Post by: Iriez on December 26, 2007, 08:28:00 AM
QUOTE(Digital_sin @ Dec 25 2007, 02:36 PM)
I doubt that the rep told the guy straight out that he was banned for modding his fan, what might have happened is that that guy told the rep that all he did to his 360 was mod it's fan (to try and get himself unbanned or something), and the rep told him that that's probably why he was banned.
No.
It is exactly as i stated.
QUOTE(the_nerdy @ Dec 25 2007, 03:46 PM)
He never said he got banned, he just said the customer rep told him he had a fan mod.
He is still unbanned. That is what you need to listen too, reread the article.
Looks like YOU are the one that needs to read the article
He is banned.
Post by: Digital_sin on December 26, 2007, 09:03:00 PM
QUOTE(Iriez @ Dec 26 2007, 06:04 PM)
No.
It is exactly as i stated.
Looks like YOU are the one that needs to read the article
He is banned.LOL, yeah.... I guess I had one to many stellas.
My bad
Post by: zerhacker on December 27, 2007, 02:59:00 AM
Post by: Iriez on December 27, 2007, 08:19:00 AM
QUOTE(zerhacker @ Dec 27 2007, 04:59 AM)
I've got a question. Is it needed to check the Images with Kreonchecker if I have ixtreme 1.4?
no
Post by: rave-m2s on December 27, 2007, 09:36:00 AM
QUOTE(wumbo65 @ Dec 22 2007, 06:10 AM)
i just got banned today. it's funny though that a backup hasn't touched my xbox in a few months. all i have been playing rock band and guitar hero(the legit ones). anyone know what happened?
See now this is what concerns ME! because it brings many questions.
If you have only been playing your originals, was it the modded firmware that got you banned?
were you flagged previously while playing backups then got caught sometime later during a ban sweep?,
is there altered save game data being stored on the HARD DRIVE ( that is exclusive to backups or the firmware mod that got you banned?
Could it have something to do with the READ speed of a modded disc drive? even when playing originals?
could a second UNmodified Disc drive be connected (switchable for data and power and possibly an ethernet ON/OFF ) so that you can you can go on LIVE safely with your ORIGINALS or is a secondary factory fresh 360 console the best and ONLY investment for someone looking to go LIVE?
I might just take my own advice and purchase a second console strictly for ONLINE play with my originals. I can go with the BASIC set up and maybe use the HD from my modded unit as needed ( unless my theory of tainted save game data is a possibility).
too many questions I know but just throwing some New perspective out there that may not have been explored previously.
Post by: rave-m2s on December 27, 2007, 10:39:00 AM
BUYER BEWARE ? Not when our entire society has a culture of buying and selling pre owned goods, it would be pretty silly for microsoft to impose a punishment on a second party owner who had no ill intent. Its like throwing the VICTIM in prison when you can't catch the offender. Is there a current class action suit by "legitimate" pre-owned console purchasers who have been affected by these ban sweeps? I know it seems like everyone is aware that consoles can and are being modified with unlawful intent but I think its NOT common knowledge and a person buying a pre owned unit in MOST cases have no idea that their legitimate cost saving purchase may one day affect their ability to play ONLINE.
The whole concept of rendering a unit permanently UNUSABLE for online play seems pretty stupid to me.
For example: DARK Tinted car windows will get you a hefty fine in Massachussets, but you KNOW why you are getting the fine and your vehicle isn't impounded permanently. Pay the fine, get the tint off and you're free to continue using the car on public roadways. It's a KNOWN law, so if you bought the car second hand you KNOW you need to so something about those tints or risk the fine. which again has no PERMANENCE. They don't make you buy a new car.
Has Microsoft ever even made a formal statement on the PURPOSE of banning a console? I'm new to the whole 360 arena so pardon my ignorance. As a method to prevent cheating ?( since there appears to be some kind of rewards and points system on LIVE, again, never been there so I'm not too keen on how the whole thing works) Which would seem like a legitimate concern but clearly not as means to thwart illegal procurement and use of intellectual/creative properties. Or am I missing something?
Post by: Analyzer52 on December 27, 2007, 03:09:00 PM
Yesterday 12/26/2007 at about 5pm est I went to sign into live to play a madden game online and could not get log in. I figured it was just a connection problem until it happened a second time, so I test the connection and get the failed message for xbox live. So Im like damn they probably got me and I come here to check whats going on and see people are getting ban. So at this point I think there is no hope for getting online with this modded box, but I say what the hell give it another try doesnt connect the first time but does the second time and I get logged in. Only thing it would not do is connect to MSN massager but who cares. I played the game of madden and then got offline. I decide I should probably upgrade to have any hope of staying on live so, I upgraded from 3.1 or 3.2 ixtreme for a Samsung to 1.4 ixtreme for Samsung (I have an MS28 I think its the one you have to turn off to force flash) and Im still able to get on line and playback ups as of 3am est this morning. I madden I have is a back because the disc drive some how scratched my original of that and ncaa I still have not figure out how that happened.
I have an old Hitachi that got banned during the first wave of banning Im going to hot air gun it tonight see if I can get it working again and then flash to original and see if I can get that one back online, cant hurt to try.
Post by: ssj4android on December 27, 2007, 06:55:00 PM
Anyway, Iriez, are you the one who was banned and told directly by a MS rep that the fan was the cause without mentioning it before? I find it hard to believe that Microsoft would ban someone because they modded their fan.
Post by: Devedander on December 27, 2007, 06:44:00 PM
QUOTE(rave-m2s @ Dec 27 2007, 06:39 PM)
BUYER BEWARE ? Not when our entire society has a culture of buying and selling pre owned goods, it would be pretty silly for microsoft to impose a punishment on a second party owner who had no ill intent. Its like throwing the VICTIM in prison when you can't catch the offender.
Or you could look at like the police will confiscate your stuff if it turns out it was stolen even if you didn't realize it was stolen when you bought it...
And in the same veing, sure it's lame that an unwitting user gets banned but what recourse would it leave MS to protect themselves if everyone could just say "I bought it off ebay, unban me!"?
Gotta look at it from both angles... If you look around carefully you would be surprised how often buying second hand leaves you wide open for some really nasty surprises.
QUOTE
Has Microsoft ever even made a formal statement on the PURPOSE of banning a console?
I believe their official stance is that modified consoles are not allowed to connec to live to protect their online gaming experienced (ie prevent cheaters). It's been a pretty blatent case of saying what sounds good and is plausible as an excuse to do what you want. Kind of like the whole backup scene which we all know is heavily made up of pirates who say "backup" so they can keep pirating...
Post by: hughjasol on December 30, 2007, 03:06:00 AM
QUOTE(rave-m2s @ Dec 27 2007, 09:36 AM)
too many questions I know but just throwing some New perspective out there that may not have been explored previously.
Pardon my ignorance (and possible lack of posting etiquette) - this is my first post to this forum. But after reading the entire thread, there was one earlier post in particular that lead me to another possible theory that I'd like to throw out there . . . specifically, the post regarding the timing of the bans (i.e. Christmas time?). I noticed from the www.360drives.com DVD database, that there is a proliferation of the Benq drives in the more recently manufactured XBox Elite systems.
Earlier "mod" documents stated that while there is no iXtreme firmware available for these drives, the Benq drives are "very rare" (Hmm . . any coincidence that MS started using these drives?). Based on the fact that there now IS Benq firmware, with a new "generic" version 1.4 supporting all XB360 drives, I have several possible conspiracy theories (BTW - the "returned data" I refer to below is where my ignorance may come into play - I don't know exactly what information they poll, and which of that information MS does - or potentially could - save for future reference or comparison):
- Could this latest ban sweep have been the result of some sort of "signature" in the returned data that is common to the new firmware; and which in previous drive-specific firmware releases would not have been identical across all drive types?
- Or could it have been some sort of "baseline" check in order to capture this information before everybody upgrades to the new firmware, with their intention being to perform Item #1 in the near future, in hopes of doing a comparison and finding out the answer to that question themselves?
- Assuming #1 and/or #2, could that just have been a "beta test" for the real sweep - like 1-2 days after Christmas - when their new user-base will be drastically increasing due to the flood of new XBs touting the new until-just-recently-unmod'able Benq drives? (When did MS starting having the "server issues" with XBL? - not being sarcastic - I really don't know exactly. Even if it was ~ 12/26 or 12/28, it could be just a coincidence, but that would be around the time I would expect them start doing something). I assume this could have already been done without anyone knowing - as long as they left out the banning phase of the procedure this time. The idea being MS saying "let's see what we're reading now". Then in 2-4 months, running a check again to see if there are any flags they can spot.
Whether their intentiion at that point is to use their data against each individual account, and immediately do another ban sweep because they think they definitely have something to go on; or to just get whatever they think they need in order to find some sort of discrepancy; or worst case (in MS's mind), if not tracked individually, to at least be able to perform some extrapolation then comparison on the data as a whole in order derive some kind of estimate as to how many XBs out there may have mod'ed firmware - I don't know. But I believe any of these scenarios - or some combination thereof - would be a logical and fairly simple strategy regardless of whether they've already found a discrepancy, or are just doing whatever they can in order to find one.
P.S. - No - I'm generally not that paranoid!
Post by: milamber on December 30, 2007, 09:08:00 AM
Post by: Charco on December 30, 2007, 10:32:00 AM
Post by: ShaX5 on December 30, 2007, 02:34:00 PM
QUOTE(milamber @ Dec 30 2007, 05:08 PM)
(apparently there is a 1.41 in testing for BenQ drives right now)
Where did you get this information from?
Please post a link of this information being confirmed for proof.
Post by: Commex on December 30, 2007, 04:53:00 PM
Post by: milamber on December 30, 2007, 04:31:00 PM
QUOTE(Commex @ Dec 31 2007, 09:53 AM)
Im on iXtreme 1.3 and didnt get banned. Should i risk upgrading to iXtreme 1,4?
Yes, upgrade - 1.4 is the only 'safe' firmware at the moment.
QUOTE(ShaX5 @ Dec 31 2007, 08:10 AM)
Where did you get this information from?
Please post a link of this information being confirmed for proof.
Damn, I knew this would happen!
It's the current topic in the #fw channel on EFNet. To quote: "BenQ iXtreme v1.41 in testing : Read sector fix & 8x fw dashboard speed fix : (bug fixes, not security-related)"
OK?
p.s. I'm not involved in the testing or anything so don't ask me when it will be available.
Post by: nathanknight on December 30, 2007, 07:01:00 PM
QUOTE(Iriez @ Dec 23 2007, 07:31 PM)
There is no need for a new firmware. A proper backup will work just fine on ixtreme 1.4. As far as i can tell, it is about as safe as it is having a unmodified 360 at this point.
And...once your proper backup is done, will the stealth checking tools (Xbox Backup Creator, Kreon Checker & Mulleter) provide accurate or proper results for double checking?
I've read thousands of post this week and I remember one post on the Team Xecuter forum (I believe) that said they just recently tested thousands of copied games, and the Kreon backups did not come out as the best copies with the correct CRC, etc, but that a Samsung method (can't remember the term) came out as a safer way to copy/backup the games.
Post by: lenarass on February 10, 2008, 11:22:00 AM
Post by: JAG ReDDoG on February 12, 2008, 07:50:00 PM
Neil H. wrote:
Im reading alot on the fact that MS could ban you for live if you mod your fan12v.Im sure theres an official statement in there somewhere.
Can you plug this in the usb port?
Can you switch it to 5v for online play?
Your fans look great and should be better than the stock ones.I just dont want to get banned from live because of a fan.
Thanks Neil
Thank you for contacting Talismoon support.
About people being banned from Live because of mods made to their case, we are aware of that rumor.
From what we understand, the person who was banned offered this information to the XBL agent who agreed that this was the reason. Furthermore, other members of the community have suggested that it is plausible. However, this is an extremely tenuous line of reasoning.
On the other hand, it could be that the XBL agent was just trying to get rid of the guy, and would have told him anything. Many things in life are plausible but this does not mean that they are true.
Our sources indicate that it is extremely unlikely that MS has done this or will do this in the future. Therefore, we will continue to manufacture this product line.
=====>Also, members of our staff use the whisper personally, and we haven't been banned.<========
Thats really the best answer I can give you.
The whisper fan must be plugged into the fan plug. For the 12v nitro switch, it goes into the dvd power, using the included Y split cable. This switch pokes out the back of the xbox, in one of the vent hole. You can change between 5v and 12v by reaching in the back and pushing the switch.
The fan is indeed better than the stock one. Here's the specifications for the whisper with comparison to the orignal fan, at 5v:
Specifications
(behind are the standard Xbox 360 fan specifications)
DC Power: 12V (at 5v)- Original Fan: 12V (at 5v)
Current: 160mA - Original Fan: 250mA
Speed: 4100RPM - Original Fan: 4600RPM
Air flow: 46CFM - Original Fan: 29CFM
Loudness: 38d(
a - Original Fan: 41d(aIf you require further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards,
Sam
Talismoon Support
Sorry for the large post but i felt it was needed.As far as their email take it for what its worth.Im really thinking about adding those fans.Atleast you can switchthe volts speed.Thanks and add any help/advice/thoughts.Peace
Post by: Haygar on February 14, 2008, 02:06:00 AM
How can MS detect a console with a 12v fan mod under these circumstances?
Both fans are connected to the raw regulated 12v that enters the console before any other circuits. (Which is the exact same source/track that feeds the original drive transistors that fed the fans in the first place.)
Note: Even if they could detect current/power consumption, that's altering all the time depending on what the console is doing anyway. Voltage is one thing, current is another.
The fans are disconnected from the socket that they are normally plugged into.
Note: If you monitor the voltage on the socket it will remain at the normal voltage (5.4v when cool) as if the fans were still connected and will rise if the CPU feels the need to cool down. (If you experiment by driving the fans externally with a variable power supply you can check this quite easily.)
So, allowing for the possibility that MS can monitor the voltage on the socket for the fans, the only thing that I can see that they could tie together is the fact that the CPU would be running at an abnormally low temperature whilst the fan voltage (to MS's knowledge) would be too low to achieve this.
Hope this makes some sense to somebody.
or 
Post by: Haygar on February 14, 2008, 06:27:00 AM
Post by: GeorgeCloney on May 21, 2009, 12:44:00 PM
QUOTE(chinozzz @ Dec 22 2007, 05:59 PM)
Is there ANYONE who is reading all of this, that has been banned with a STOCK 360 with a Fan Mod and never had their console modded...
chinozzz
yes
Post by: GeorgeCloney on May 21, 2009, 12:55:00 PM
Post by: xbfan703 on May 21, 2009, 06:30:00 PM
The following will provide some background of typical fan speed control circuits employed in a PC and likely the method employed on the Xbox 360 motherboard:
TEMPERATURE MONITORING
The prerequisite for intelligent fan-speed control within PCs is the ability to measure both system and processor temperature accurately. The temperature monitoring technique used has been the subject of many articles (for example, see Analog Dialogue 33-4.) and will only be briefly visited here. All Analog Devices system monitoring devices use a temperature monitoring technique known as thermal diode monitoring (TDM). The technique makes use of the fact that the forward voltage of a diode-connected transistor, operated at a constant current, exhibits a negative temperature coefficient, about -2mV/°C. Since the absolute value of VBE varies from device to device, this feature by itself is unsuitable for use in mass-produced devices, because each one would require individual calibration. In the TDM technique, two different currents are successively passed through the transistor, and the voltage change is measured. The temperature is related to the difference in VBE.
In any CPU, the most relevant temperature is that of the "hot spot" on the die. All other temperatures in the system (including the heat-sink temperature) will lag the rise in this temperature. For this reason, practically every CPU (manufactured since the early Intel Pentium II processors) contains a strategically located transistor on its die for thermal monitoring. It gives a true, essentially instantaneous, profile of die temperature.
From: http://www.analog.com/library/analogDialog...ives/34-04/fan/
It is resonable to believe that the xbox 360 motherboard employs a similar circuit/method to monitor temperature and control fan speed. The circuit would obviously be on the motherboard and the voltage going to the positive terminal on the fan connector is being varied from 3 to 12vDC.
The 12v fan mood is designed to supply 12v directly to the positive wires of the DC fans. The mod involves cutting the positive wires and supplying 12vdc directly to the fan. As some one stated in a previous reply to this thread the xbox 360 fans do not have a 'voltage sense terminal thus the fan itself is not involved directly in reporting fan speed. The 12vDC fan mod does not disable or bypass the temperature monitoring circuit on the xbox 360 motherboard. Therefore the temperature monitoring circuit is still varying the voltage supplied to the positive terminal on the motherboard fan connector and thus still reporting that the fan speed varies. If you were to have performed the 12vDC mod by just nicking the insulation to the positive wires and supplying 12vDC from another source then the fan speed would be reported as 12vDC or full speed fan operation. Based upon this I find it extremely unlikey or impossible that a properly done 12DC fan mod could ever be responsible for a ban.
Post by: jjmcmahon7 on October 12, 2009, 02:21:00 PM