Post by: NDarkness on November 14, 2010, 04:53:00 PM
Maybe soldering to the J1D2 and J2B1 points, the traces to the NAND is somehow not fully getting there. I have inspected the mobo and I don't see anything unusual. So, right now to get the best connection to the NAND chip I want to solder directly to the NAND legs to rule out any trace problem.
I just need a diagram of the chip's pinouts in order to correctly solder to the legs in relation to the J1D2 and J2B1 points. If somebody can supply me with this diagram then that'd be awesome.
Thank you.
Post by: syntaxerror329 on November 14, 2010, 05:42:00 PM
Removing the nand and using some sort of external programmer is one option.
Post by: NDarkness on November 14, 2010, 05:55:00 PM
To remove the flash chip I know it'd be advisable to use a reflow machine of some sort. But, since I don't have one available at the moment, I think I'll do the ol' "de-solder one pin at a time" method. Being careful not to break any pins, of course.
Post by: syntaxerror329 on November 14, 2010, 08:23:00 PM
QUOTE(NDarkness @ Nov 14 2010, 07:55 PM) 
Oh, I see. Is there an external programmer that you would recommend?
To remove the flash chip I know it'd be advisable to use a reflow machine of some sort. But, since I don't have one available at the moment, I think I'll do the ol' "de-solder one pin at a time" method. Being careful not to break any pins, of course.
When i removed one here i used the "flood" method
Basically i add tons of solder to one side of the chip and short out all the legs. I run my soldering iron back and forth and get all the legs covered in liquid solder and then quickly lift one side. Then remove the excess with braid. Do the same to the other side and your chip is off. clean everything up with more braid.
Rather then spend money on a prgrammer you could just use another xbox 360 motherboard, get something with RROD. The nand programming works even if console is messed up with rrod. Motherboard must be same version or you will have to do the pin short trick to get it to read/write due to the smc code being board specific.
When i first started doing jtags had a board with bad blocks and was having issues so i just installed a new nand. lol. It worked perfect but of course i know how to deal with bad blocks now.
Post by: NDarkness on November 14, 2010, 08:39:00 PM
Post by: syntaxerror329 on November 14, 2010, 08:57:00 PM
QUOTE(NDarkness @ Nov 14 2010, 10:39 PM)
I actually do have another motherboard that has RROD but its dashboard version is of the 8XXX series. Would replacing the NAND on a 360 that is not exploitable work on one that is? Not sure if it will mess with the e-fuses somehow. Maybe bridging to protect the e-fuses would be wise first?
Makes no difference what dash version it is. You are not turning the machine on beyond the standby power.
If you turned it on by mistake it would error but it would not blow a efuse.
For my example what i did was i read the nand from my bad block xenon. Made XBR and flashed it to a busted board with no bad blocks then transplanted that nand in place of my bad black nand. Solved all my problems but of course I could have learned how to remap bad blocks. I bet it didn't even take me a half hour.
I have been wanting to experiment with downgrading a big block nand to a 16mb in a jasper but it is probably pointless. I don't think anyone is having any issues anymore with BB systems.
Post by: NDarkness on November 15, 2010, 12:23:00 AM
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5527/img2584k.jpg
It is pin # 27 I believe. Do all legs need to be soldered to the board in order for the NAND to fully function? If so, then I wonder if I can solder that particular leg to an alternative point somewhere. If there isn't, then I have a spare Falcon board that I will try again on.
Burnt soldering flux really makes it look messy heh.
Post by: gamesquest1 on November 15, 2010, 12:30:00 AM
atleast if it does you know it isnt a vital pin
This post has been edited by gamesquest1: Nov 15 2010, 08:31 AM
Post by: NDarkness on November 15, 2010, 12:44:00 AM
Post by: gamesquest1 on November 15, 2010, 12:47:00 AM
Post by: syntaxerror329 on November 15, 2010, 07:23:00 AM
Nice job, did you do the "flood" method i described?
Post by: kipper2k on November 15, 2010, 07:40:00 AM
QUOTE(NDarkness @ Nov 15 2010, 12:53 AM)
So I got in a 360 where the previous modder somehow messed up on the NAND reading process. So now the NAND can no longer be read with nandpro spitting out a "Could not detect a flash controller!" error. 360 still boots up fine so the NAND itself is not corrupted...possibly.
Maybe soldering to the J1D2 and J2B1 points, the traces to the NAND is somehow not fully getting there. I have inspected the mobo and I don't see anything unusual. So, right now to get the best connection to the NAND chip I want to solder directly to the NAND legs to rule out any trace problem.
I just need a diagram of the chip's pinouts in order to correctly solder to the legs in relation to the J1D2 and J2B1 points. If somebody can supply me with this diagram then that'd be awesome.
Thank you.
You do not need to solder to the nand in order to get the nand recognised 99% of the time. you can kickstart it by plugging in the power connector to the 360 at the same time you press enter to run your nandpro command. Put the 360 on a power bar with an on/off switch to make it easier. it works good. it will prob take a few attempts so dont give in too early
Post by: MadBoxer on November 15, 2010, 09:35:00 AM
QUOTE(NDarkness @ Nov 14 2010, 04:55 PM)
Oh, I see. Is there an external programmer that you would recommend?
To remove the flash chip I know it'd be advisable to use a reflow machine of some sort. But, since I don't have one available at the moment, I think I'll do the ol' "de-solder one pin at a time" method. Being careful not to break any pins, of course.
I've replaced and changed Nands multiple times with a simple heat gun. Works like a charm. I cover the area with foil or metallic tape then use an exacto-knife or scalpel to cut open the area around the chip. Slowly heat up until the the chip is loose, then I take it off with a suction pickup tool (Got off ebay for like $2). I actually recorded a video, one of these days maybe I'll get around to uploading on youtube.
Post by: NDarkness on November 16, 2010, 08:50:00 PM
So I took syntaxerror329's advice and flooded one side of the chip.
(IMG:http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1982/img2574g.th.jpg)
This proved to be difficult, though, as I did not have a suitable tip to heat up all of the solder at once. I would have needed a broad tip wide enough to do so. So, I decided to do the other end first using the "lift one leg at a time" method.
(IMG:http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9730/img2577f.th.jpg)
(IMG:http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2585/img2578z.th.jpg)
Then, while pulling that end of the chip, I quickly ran the soldering iron back and forth on the flooded end to remove the chip.
(IMG:http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2827/img2582ce.th.jpg)
Did the same with the JTAG NAND chip except I lifted all of the pins instead of using the flooding technique.
(IMG:http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1451/img2587e.th.jpg)
Now, if you take a closer look at that NAND chip, you will notice that pin #37 is missing. This is for power (VCC) if I am correct so I would need to fix this. If any of you guys modded Wiis before, then you would know about the D2B cut leg situation. I had experience with this, so I knew to grind the top of the chip away in order to reveal the traces.
(IMG:http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/7563/img2590i.th.jpg)
Since I was going to solder wires on that grinded section, I might as well use wires on the whole thing.
(IMG:http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/9283/img2591p.th.jpg)
Well that's not going to work since the legs are so fragile. With a wire soldered on and a slight movement of the wire, the leg will come right off.
After doing some research on the chip, I have found out that a large majority of the NAND's legs are not used (NC=Not Connected)-
(IMG:http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7308/hy27sg082g2mpinout.jpg)
So, I said "eff it" and decided to grind out the top of the chip to access the traces to solder to with wires.
(IMG:http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/3695/img2592g.th.jpg)
Done and done.
(IMG:http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1410/img2594r.th.jpg)
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/3725/img2595i.jpg (cannot post thumbnails anymore)
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1865/img2596g.jpg
This proved to not be great as while I was soldering to the motherboard, some of the wires would pop off from the chip. So, new tactic.
I will first solder the wires to the board and then superglue them down so that they would not move a millimeter.
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7532/img2601vc.jpg
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/8451/img2602.jpg
Done on both sides.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6705/img2604f.jpg
Then I proceeded to solder to the NAND's traces.
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9864/img2605p.jpg
I then mounted the NAND chip on a piece of cardboard for stability and to glue the wires down tight.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1177/img2608z.jpg
Everything looked alright. I inspected the legs with a multimeter to make sure that there's no bridging. Then I soldered my USB NAND reader to the board. Plugged in the PSU, plugged in the reader to USB to my PC. Then started up nandpro. It started to read! But wait, it's just giving me a bunch of errors. And then under the corner of my eye I saw what looked to be a small stream of smoke. It was. I quickly exited out of nandpro and unplugged the PSU. There was smoke coming out of the NAND chip which is making the electrical tape bubble.
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/1350/img2612c.jpg
So now the NAND is dead. This could have been caused by a couple of reasons-
1. There actually was a bridging somewhere that I might have missed.
2. The superglue might have cause a chemical reaction...somehow.
3. I did actually have to connect all of the wires to the board.
The person who sent me this 360 might be displeased that this 360, in this condition, is not JTAGable but he told me to do whatever it takes to fix it. If there was one thing that I would have differently it would be that I would have bought a heatgun and used it to properly remove and install the NAND chip.
Oh well, like I said in the beginning, this was a nice experience overall. Sure the chip died but I have learned several things over this procedure. Big thanks to syntaxerror329 and the rest of the people here for giving me advice!
Post by: MadBoxer on November 16, 2010, 09:54:00 PM
Bummer to hear the nand is dead.
Amazing effort trying to it it back together though! A heat gun and a little flux paste on the legs would have done you wonders for this. A lot of people talk them down, but damage usually happens from heat guns because people use cheap ones or don't know what they are doing. I harvest a lot of parts off old or broken electronics with heat guns and have a good heat curve down. If you don't want to risk warping the board, griddles also work good as a pre-heater for the underside.
Post by: syntaxerror329 on November 16, 2010, 10:08:00 PM
Post by: NDarkness on November 16, 2010, 10:59:00 PM
QUOTE(syntaxerror329 @ Nov 16 2010, 11:08 PM) 
You technically don't need to read the nand to jtag it. You just need to install a replacment nand with xellous on it. Then get your CPU key and it is possible to build a completly new nand from donor files.
Awesome! I have another console with the same mobo as this one. It's actually my personal backup console...but for this dude I'll do it. I'll look into getting a heatgun first before picking the legs out. Don't want to lose a leg and have to resort to do the grinding and soldering again...
Post by: MadBoxer on November 17, 2010, 01:10:00 AM
QUOTE(NDarkness @ Nov 16 2010, 10:59 PM)
Awesome! I have another console with the same mobo as this one. It's actually my personal backup console...but for this dude I'll do it. I'll look into getting a heatgun first before picking the legs out. Don't want to lose a leg and have to resort to do the grinding and soldering again...
I'm not sure how much you are looking to pay, but Home depot has a house brand (Ryobi) for $50 that is comparable to a $100 name brand gun. It also includes a narrow nozzle that helps for removing smaller components.
Link:
http://www.homedepot...catalogId=10053
If you are not familiar with heat guns, practice removing some components off junk electronics to get comfortable with the gun before using it on the xbox. Block surrounding capacitors or plastic parts from getting directly hit with hot air and use a suction pickup pen to remove the chip.
Post by: NDarkness on December 02, 2010, 03:02:00 PM
Since this is my first time using a heat gun, I just put it at the lowest temperature for now to get a good feel for it. So, at 200F I warmed up the chip. This was not enough to melt the solder, of course. I then raised it up to 500F. Solder not melting yet. Raised it up to 800F and after ~10 seconds the solder started to melt and I was able to remove the chip with tweezers. Sadly, a pad was removed on the motherboard but the chip's legs were all intact- this is all I cared about. If any of the pads were to be removed on the motherboard where I am going to pull the NAND chip out, then that would fine as I don't think I'd be using that console any time soon.
What I'm worried about though is if I am overheating the chip or not. Pointing at the chip with a heat gun going at 800F for 10 seconds does not seem safe to me. I do not see any visible damage, but I wonder if the internal core has been damaged somehow. Setting the Wii mobo aside, I think I'm ready to pull out the NAND chip on the 360 mobo.
First, I'm going to dump the NAND and then install Xellous. Then remove the chip and transfer it to the customer's 360. Hopefully the chip does not overheat! Wish me luck or if you guys have any other tips then I would like to read them. I'm going to drop by the store tomorrow to pick up more supplies before starting on removing the chip.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not sure of how to make this NAND support the new console. I'm sure that the data inside the chip right now is tied to the console I had, so like syntaxerror329 said I'd need to rebuild the NAND with donor files.
This post has been edited by NDarkness: Dec 2 2010, 11:16 PM
Post by: MadBoxer on February 03, 2020, 04:58:00 PM
The nand information is useless on the other board unless the dash version/CB match. If they do then you can use it as a donor nand and replace the KV with the box you are trying to fix. There are plenty of post on this forum on donor nands, do a search.
Chip removal tips:
Are you using flux paste? That works wonders. Put some on the solder pads and it will start bubbling to let you know the temp is close. It also warms up the pads under the legs where hot air can't hitting directly (Can buy at Radioshack). The electrical tape will also get really sticky when heated. You are better off using metallic tape that is used for air vents (Sold at hardware stores) or no tape at all. For that gun, keep it about 3-4inches above the chip and oscillate constantly. 200degree for about 3mins (Pre-heat), 500degree for 2mins and then 800 for about 10-20sec. A suction pickup tool is best, but if you are using pliers, don't just pry it up, first push on it slightly, if it moves, you are good, if it doesn't, then continue to heat before picking it up. If your work area is really cold, you may want to start by warming up the underside of the board at the 200degree setting. Leaving the underside cold requires a longer pre-heat and can cause warping. I place my boards on a 2 inch high stand, place it on a griddle, and heat at the max setting for 4mins.
Causing damage:
800degrees can cause damage if left on too long. Using 2mins at 800degree after 200/500 settings will start damaging components and the board can start separating. If you are worried about 800degrees, 500 setting will eventually melt the solder if the gun is close enough and you are using flux paste. If the solder is not melted, then don't worry about damaging the chip. I would be more concerned with the caps that are close to the nand. Protect them from direct air, but don't completely cover them or the foil will act like an oven!
Post by: NDarkness on December 04, 2010, 07:42:00 PM
On my spare 360, I dumped the NAND and then installed Xellous to it.
I removed the NAND chip from my spare 360 using the heat gun. Like the last time, I covered the surrounding area except the NAND with 4x folded foil. Then I used the heat gun at 500F for 20 seconds to warm it up. Then at 800F at ~30-45 seconds for the solder to melt to remove the chip. I then pulled out the customer's JTAG 360 to solder the chip into. Covered area with foil, lined up the legs of the chip onto the solder pads, then heat gunned the chip at 800F for ~30-45 seconds.
I wanted to make sure the legs were properly soldered to the pads though so I went back and, using a fresh sharp-pointed soldering tip, soldered each individual leg to the pad. After inspecting each leg, I wanted to test the 360 before soldering on the JTAG wires to make sure that the chip would not explode. Started up the console, and then was greeted with E79 which is normal when I did not solder the JTAG wires yet.
So then I went ahead and soldered the wires. Booted up the machine and E79 again. As you said, the dash and CB has to match which I doubt it does since the console where I pulled the NAND chip from had 8955 dash I believe. This JTAG has the dash at 7371. CB I have no idea since I never dumped the NAND on that one.
Now, in order to re-flash the NAND, I would have to de-solder the chip again and then solder it back to my spare 360 to read/write. Or I can purchase an external programmer that syntaxerror329 was talking about. Either way, this is starting to become a pain on my mind and back lol.
I'll see if replacing the NAND fixed the inability to read the NAND on this motherboard from before.
Edit: It didn't.