Post by: Xbox-Scene on May 12, 2007, 09:23:00 PM
Bunnie, Mist and Tmbinc meet Designer of the Xbox360 Security Posted by XanTium | May 12 23:23 EST | News Category: Xbox360 |
| From Bunnie's Blog: Quote
Full Story: Bunnie's Blog |
Post by: capboy210 on May 12, 2007, 08:49:00 PM
Post by: halohack on May 12, 2007, 08:50:00 PM
Post by: digi360 on May 12, 2007, 09:29:00 PM
QUOTE(capboy210 @ May 12 2007, 11:25 PM) 
lol wtf is up with the mac laptop @ microsoft?
classic.
Post by: harrypotter333 on May 12, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
QUOTE(halohack @ May 13 2007, 05:26 AM)
Alright, so who is "Hoodie"?
it could be the skinny dude with the beard
Post by: stonersmurff on May 12, 2007, 09:57:00 PM
QUOTE(harrypotter333 @ May 13 2007, 04:47 AM)
it could be the skinny dude with the beard
Its none of them, the hoodie dude was another member of the team.
Post by: No_Name on May 12, 2007, 09:29:00 PM
Its an MS product too, they do not just make software for PCs in Redmond
Post by: englishnamja on May 12, 2007, 09:31:00 PM
how is this a good thing...
clearly bunny should be sent back to vietnam....
Post by: echto on May 12, 2007, 09:38:00 PM
QUOTE
omg wtf I'm at Microsoft talking about Xbox hacking??!?!?
...more like a gay orgy with billyboy sitting around dressed in a Little Miss Muffet outifit.
lol
Post by: tomgreen99200 on May 12, 2007, 10:02:00 PM
Post by: ILLusions0fGrander on May 12, 2007, 10:05:00 PM
Post by: MrPhunkee on May 12, 2007, 10:17:00 PM
Perhaps his hacking was only done for him to get a well paid job and he doesn't give shit about the scene.
I still have 2 say: respect
Post by: Lamer123 on May 12, 2007, 10:32:00 PM
Post by: hyfall381 on May 12, 2007, 11:05:00 PM
Post by: Chamrock on May 13, 2007, 12:05:00 AM
Post by: epsilon72 on May 13, 2007, 01:00:00 AM
Post by: RAISH on May 13, 2007, 01:05:00 AM
Post by: travis134sg on May 13, 2007, 01:22:00 AM
Post by: jwhazel on May 13, 2007, 01:39:00 AM
lOlz wTF now we'll Ne\/eR h0xor teh 360. thnks aLoT.... tRaitErs!!!!!!
Yeah, now I feel alot better.
Seriously (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
This post has been edited by jwhazel: May 13 2007, 08:46 AM
Post by: RaVaGe221 on May 13, 2007, 01:40:00 AM
I'm not gonna call them traitors because they may have had very good reasons for what they did (but it doesnt seem that way). But seriously. Why?
Post by: 0794 on May 13, 2007, 01:43:00 AM
bunnie and his work is amazing - his text "hacking the xbox" is a great, albeit very tough read (even with my engineering background) and i am glad to see that he is having a blast lecturing at MS. how can anyone be so selfish to not be happy for his excitement to meet and discuss with other brilliant minds concerning what he loves - security.
what he helped to provide with the original xbox has been nothing short of outstanding - and can never be undone. good luck to him in all of his future endeavors...
Post by: rgtaa on May 13, 2007, 02:36:00 AM
If you have modded any xbox, then these guys are gonna stop you if they can (part of NEW MS security team), by first hanging out with you and gaining your "trust" ... then sharing everything they "learn" with MS. Does that sum it up? If these guys didn't go to MS , this would mean we have our 360's modded. But because they did go to MS, and showed MS how to plug the leak, we don't have the 360 modded. And some are thinking these guys did the "right" thing. Please explain why xbox-scene is honoring "these" guys with FRONT PAGE pics!?
Post by: Maverick-DBZ- on May 13, 2007, 02:02:00 AM
If I was given the same opportunity I would have taken it in a heart beat.
Sadly there is a downside to that, but personally speaking I could live with that.Post by: rgtaa on May 13, 2007, 02:59:00 AM
I HOPE MS is reading this, and smarten up, THESE GUYS will screw with you MS, make no mistake about it. Get everything you can out of these guys, and put them in the back room and show-case them so other "hackers" will cross sides and join MS security team.
These guys are very short sighted! I understand they want security job, but doing what they did, would show security managers they are NOT TO BE TRUSTED.
Not a good move, from business standpoint, they are not chess players, this isn't a game of checkers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
This post has been edited by rgtaa: May 13 2007, 10:02 AM
Post by: manu_xl on May 13, 2007, 03:57:00 AM
QUOTE(rgtaa @ May 13 2007, 10:59 AM)
Not a good move, from business standpoint, they are not chess players, this isn't a game of checkers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
if Bungie was able to hack the mighty first xbox and Tmbinc was able to hack the NGC and WII, why wouldnt somebody else not be able to do it. in fact they have shown vulnerabilities in the mentioned consoles which has helped devs (here microsoft) in making a more secure system. there's defenitaly nothing wrong with microsoft paying (notice the word ;-) attention to these guys
This post has been edited by manu_xl: May 13 2007, 11:01 AM
Post by: gronned on May 13, 2007, 03:58:00 AM
Post by: kidman64 on May 13, 2007, 04:12:00 AM
they can do whatever they want, and they deserve to be paid for their knowledge. I have absolutelty nothing against them, better yet, we should always be greatful for their hard work (how many of you have your xbox/wii/gcn modded?) no matter what are they doing now, and no matter what you think about it - if you feel like they're traitors well hack 360 yourself, and when microsoft comes to you tell them you love the scene, and you won't join them - simple as that. Good for them.
Post by: rgtaa on May 13, 2007, 04:28:00 AM
One side says "These guys did great job in hacking in PAST and wish them well in NEW MS SECURITY job "plugging" holes so 360 doesn't get MODDED.
Other side says: " Isn't this going to block us from Modding the 360" ... and isn't this a bad thing from Mod community standpoint.
Is there a 3rd viewpoint, I'm not listing.
Post by: jdsony on May 13, 2007, 04:40:00 AM
Post by: rgtaa on May 13, 2007, 04:54:00 AM
So, is he still in the LOOP with the other "HACKERS" and are they going to tell him other "holes" they find, so he can RUN back to MS and close them.
The only people "liking this development" must be "his friends" ... because how would people trying to hack the 360 figure he is ON THEIR SIDE. Obviously, he is on MS's side NOW and will do everything he can to 'keep his job"... even if it means "ease-dropping" on what other hackers are doing and reporting back to MS what they are doing, so MS can stop it.
Post by: kgn340 on May 13, 2007, 06:01:00 AM
my ability to run homebrew on my 360 went from "yes" to "no" because of athe "wonderful stuff" mentioned in the article.
thanks for that.
score one for big business then, i guess.
Post by: gasclown on May 13, 2007, 06:04:00 AM
rock and roll
Post by: Modiller on May 13, 2007, 06:31:00 AM
QUOTE
Money talks.
you act as if people in the scene aren't financially capable
heh, MS. isn't paying them millions for information..
Post by: DrPepperFan15 on May 13, 2007, 06:40:00 AM
edit:Although again I would like it to get modded for all the things you could do but theres always the majority of people who will go mental for halo 3 mods and whatnot also people are already modding games online through the firmware mods which annoys the hell out of me mainly in gears of war when I see one guy who has 1 kill but 99999999999999 points... it's already starting to happen and it's just purely annoying when you play with them too.... also I've had it happen to me in chromehounds. I'm complaining too much but just giving my thoughts about the whole thing
This post has been edited by DrPepperFan15: May 13 2007, 01:44 PM
Post by: Trex666 on May 13, 2007, 06:51:00 AM
QUOTE
Furthermore, it is standard practice in the security profession to contact the vendor to attempt to resolve the issue prior to disclosure. There is no monetary reward for this behavior; it is simple professionalism and an act of good faith. I would like to point out that this is identical to the path we started last time when I hacked the original Xbox security the first thing we did prior to public disclosure was to notify Microsoft of the vulnerability but last time Microsoft wasnt responsive, and furthermore, even if they wanted to do something, they couldnt because of how they had burned a single key and codebase into every box out there. This time, they have an improved system with sufficient agility to respond to such a threat, and they also listened to us and invited us to their house so they can learn and improve, and hopefully improve relationships with potential developers like the homebrew community. We gladly obliged because as security professionals our ultimate goal is to improve the state of the art and social policy in security, and open negotiation is more productive than a protracted guerilla warfare.
Post by: mike315 on May 13, 2007, 07:03:00 AM
i remember going to pumpcon, summercon, etc; knowing i was going to hear some juicy exploit no one had heard about...im not saying it doesn't happen. but it doesn't happen enough anymore.
Post by: manu_xl on May 13, 2007, 07:32:00 AM
QUOTE(gasclown @ May 13 2007, 02:04 PM)
Didn't you guys own an xbox1? Or any other hacked console... bunnie! The other guys are legends too, but I'm up the back yellin bunnie!!
rock and roll
hehe ... he even doesnt look like a nerd. Bunnie has the looks to play in some kungfu movie ;-)
Bunnie for president \0/
(IMG:http://pictures.xbox-scene.com/xbox360/bunnie/bluehat3_07_s300.jpg)
isnt he adorable?
This post has been edited by manu_xl: May 13 2007, 02:38 PM
Post by: ampedXR on May 13, 2007, 08:12:00 AM
Post by: rgtaa on May 13, 2007, 08:37:00 AM
Now with 360, MS says , GLAD to see you FELLOWS, take a seat and let's talk, can I get you cup of coffee, please, show us what you are up to and our security holes, so, nobody can hack it. So in future , are Sony, Nintendo, MS gonna be be "offered" a sit-down and if "meeting" goes well, no hacks will come out. If not, you guys know what we will do, and we are the guys that did it in past.
All you people , praising this, will not be smiling when "all the consoles" stop being hacked... period!. Sounds like hackers now have to watch for this type "slime-ball" tactic, it's extortion.
In past, MS found out, what happens if they don't play ball with these "slime-balls" , they will let everyone get a FREE MOD, and if they do play ball with these "slime-balls" ... they get rich and community shuts down. And don't think it will not happen, MS, Sony and Nintendo has the money to throw at this problem... to make it go away.
Guys, please think what you are supporting, LONG TERM. I understand most of us don't like "cheating" etc, but we are also talking, home brew, Linux, media center, everything else. And that is what you are supporting if you support these "slime-balls"!
Sorry fellows for ranting a little but gee, knowing we were used as PAWNS in a scam to get MS to hire them , makes me MUFFED to say the least, and MUFFED at you guys supporting their tactics. Not to mention all the other NICE folks that "trusted" them with info, they latter gave to MS. More than 1 person had to do hacking stuff, many people helped to do it, but only the "slime-ball" , who did it for MONEY! That is why the word "traitor" was used by some. The same way MS would use the TERM if an employee of MS took valued info to rival company, MS would think of that employee as TRAITOR, right?
Post by: PhatheadWRX on May 13, 2007, 08:09:00 AM
QUOTE(Modiller @ May 13 2007, 08:31 AM) 
you act as if people in the scene aren't financially capable
heh, MS. isn't paying them millions for information..
just hundreds of thousands....
much more than net recognition. the original hackers don't make the money, its the companies that mas produce chips to sell to the masses
Post by: DrPepperFan15 on May 13, 2007, 08:45:00 AM
Also looking at the pic again is kinda funny how I noticed that the Apple logo is smaller than the Microsoft logo which is just a bit funny.... only I and other extreme apple haters would understand what I'm talking about. Even funnier to see an apple at microsoft
This post has been edited by DrPepperFan15: May 13 2007, 03:49 PM
Post by: sunn02 on May 13, 2007, 08:52:00 AM
# Felix Says:
May 13th, 2007 at 5:25 am
Why hurting? Working together with Microsoft actually made it possible to speak about this hack in public at all, and releasing information (including that proof-of-concept) about it. My/our intention was never to spoil homebrew. No, there was no money and no job involved in the disclosure to Microsoft. I have good-paying job, and hacking stops being fun if money is involved, at least for me. (which reminds me about that gray every-day life which will start again after I enter the plane tomorrow - i really had a great time here at Bluehat and Toorcon - thanks Bunnie, thanks microsoft, thanks toorcon and all the other people involved!)
The real enemy is not Microsoft in general, they are their lawyers. That are the people I wanted to keep on distance. It worked out. The reason to stay anonymous so long was not that being mysterious is so cool or whatever - it was just about not getting sued. But after Bluehat, it become clear that this was no issue anymore.
And my strict demand for working on a project like free60 is that i can publish stuff in public, under my real name, without hiding anything, and still be able to sleep well at night. This would not have been possible if we hadn’t worked together with Microsoft.
And I would be the very last person not wanting free60 to become successful. The world is just not that black and white.
# bunnie Says:
May 13th, 2007 at 5:37 am
Actually, we are very strongly for homebrew and Linux. We had a very long talk with the security architects at Microsoft about splitting up security into separate modules for anti-piracy, anti-cheating, DRM, code signing, etc. for the next generation so that homebrew can run, without enabling piracy. Hopefully they have listened.
The problem with the exploit is that it can be directly abused for piracy, as their architecture used a single core security module which, when compromised, caused everything to be compromised. The potential liability of such an exploit is immense. The likely crack-down on the homebrew effort due to legal backlash would not have been productive in the long term and there were strong indications of such a possibility — after all, it is the exploit developers who are putting their necks on the line.
It is also clear in 20/20 hindsight that if we had not taken the path we did, Microsoft would have quickly reverse engineered our exploit installer and developed a patch, and we would have lost the opportunity to discuss the situation with them while creating potential legal havoc for ourselves due to the ambiguity of our intentions from their standpoint. At least this way we had a chance to share our views. And, to reiterate the obvious, the homebrew-fans would be in exactly the same place as they are now (e.g. having to stop at a certain patch level/potentially buy new hardware) because the “strength” of the exploit wasn’t great enough to stand on its own for more than a few days. Under all circumstances you would eventually have to buy one box to play Xbox Live, and another box to do homebrew, full stop. That’s how good the 360’s security architecture is.
Furthermore, it is standard practice in the security profession to contact the vendor to attempt to resolve the issue prior to disclosure. There is no monetary reward for this behavior; it is simple professionalism and an act of good faith. I would like to point out that this is identical to the path we started last time — when I hacked the original Xbox security the first thing we did prior to public disclosure was to notify Microsoft of the vulnerability — but last time Microsoft wasn’t responsive, and furthermore, even if they wanted to do something, they couldn’t because of how they had burned a single key and codebase into every box out there. This time, they have an improved system with sufficient agility to respond to such a threat, and they also listened to us and invited us to their house so they can learn and improve, and hopefully improve relationships with potential developers like the homebrew community. We gladly obliged because as security professionals our ultimate goal is to improve the state of the art and social policy in security, and open negotiation is more productive than a protracted guerilla warfare.
Simply put, we are locksmiths, and we love locks. We see locks as protecting possessions, homes, and families. We understand how to pick locks, and we also understand how to make better locks. Locks can be abused by preventing access to public places, but we believe it is best to go to the biggest lock maker and help them improve their locks (for the love of the art) and also help them set policies on deploying locks (for the love of the people). Microsoft will continue to improve their locks with or without us, but I doubt they would ever even consider making a policy change without us.
And, I think we left a clear message at Microsoft that until they do provide a signing key to enable homebrew, inevitably every new generation will be attacked until an exploit is found that enables homebrew (and other aspects), possibly by a new adversary that is not as white-hat as us. Creating a multi-faceted security strategy that enables homebrew effectively diffuses the threat model and thereby enhances security. Open hardware platforms are inevitable; hardware is inherently open.
Finally, those who are interested in homebrew may have read the security focus bugtraq release back in February and understood that enabling homebrew on your box is as simple as not accepting the latest patch updates. The modest interest the post generated was probably a reasonable indicator that the vast majority of the potentially affected parties didn’t actually care for homebrew, as game copying was already possible for many months now. I apologize to the homebrewers who did miss on the opportunity, but you can probably also still obtain unpatched boxes in the standing inventory of stores today.
Because of this, Linux development is still very active in the homebrew community, no new piracy or cheating was enabled, and thankfully we can continue our work with little fear of legal action. I think many would agree that this is in fact probably the best compromise solution available. You can’t make everybody happy, but I think all parties acting true to their stated intentions should be happy.
This post has been edited by sunn02: May 13 2007, 03:53 PM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on May 13, 2007, 09:00:00 AM
Homebrew, backups, Piracy. these three things are tied together in a circle whether we like it or not. Many times, the work in one of these fields, benefits those wanting the others to flourish. I don't draw a line and thank a guy for giving us potential access to homebrew, and forget that they've also given us access to backups, and others to outright piracy.
I don't call any of these guys traitors. I don't forget what drives much of this and the other console scenes.
Piracy.
I don't expect alot of people to stand by and be loyal to anyone in this or the other scenes. Everyone grows up, and eventually.. piracy in any of it's flavors becomes less and less a focal point while earning a legit living and not looking over your shoulder all the time wondering if you've finally pushed your luck too far this time becomes more important.
I'm at a point in my own life where pretty much only the potential of homebrew interests me in the various console scenes. Piracy, or even backups don't warrant my interest any longer. I suppose that came with age, maturity, and acknowledging that I don't need backups of stuff. ( I take care of my shit )
Congrats to the 3 brains on rolling their skills into something legit.
Post by: caster420 on May 13, 2007, 09:29:00 AM
Bunnie and crew, thanks for all of the hard work you have done with this console. I know i am glad to have an exploitable kernel to play around with and hopefully things will continue to progress.
Thanks,
Caster.
Post by: rgtaa on May 13, 2007, 10:46:00 AM
Damn, I'm going through grieving process.
This post has been edited by rgtaa: May 13 2007, 05:51 PM
Post by: mlmadmax on May 13, 2007, 10:19:00 AM
Post by: xboxstlboi on May 13, 2007, 11:04:00 AM
May 13th, 2007 at 11:31 am
OOOhhhh, NNNoooo, Please tell me I have to blow my e-fuse??????
Bunnie, I guess, good work??? People is confused about this here
Should I gone head and update to the newest nonhackable dash Or are you letting M$ know WE THE PEOPLE WANT HOMEBREW ENABLED ON THE 360 SOME TYPE OF WAY!!!!!
To all who is lucky to have to 4532/4548 dash
Like me, Send M$ a email about splitting the 360 into a dual bootable OS but with no keys for live on the second OS, then people cant cheat on live!!!!! Sh@$ ps3 Have OTHER OS, why cant the 360 Have it???? 
This is the type of socalled new dashboard M$ should of came out with instead of this b.s. that is out today, down below!!! M$ Needs to think, he could be making more money than he is now if he make the 360 into a bootable: windows X 360/dos X 360/ Linux X360/zune X 360/ mythtv X 360/ mac X 360/ ipod X 360/ mediacenter X 360
. This is what people wants nowdays so we need a LOT of people to TELL HIM THIS TYPE OF STUFF SO HE WILL HOPEFULLY LISTEN FOR ONCE AND DO WHAT PEOPLE want him to make instead of the b.s. hes coming with NOW!!!! Just wanted to get that off, anyway, Bunnie, GL if good things happen for you. But I hope you are not leaving the free60.org/ xbox-scene in the cold, Would be sad to you go
. Ive learned and OTHERS ALOT from YOU, YES YOU!!!!!! and TMBINC!!!!!! Well till someone else hack in the future!!!!!I dont know if I should be happy or sad about it, so like others Ill just have to wait and see what happens!!!
TO XBOX-SCENE: WE NEED A POLL OR SOMETHING SO WE ALL WHO WANTS THE 360 TO DO MAGICAL THINGS CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN LATER IN TIME!!! PEOPLE POSTS ALOT IN HERE SO, THEN CAN POST TO M$ THE SAME WAY AND LET HIM KNOW THIS IS WHAT WE WANT. IT NOT THAT HARD, IVE BEEN SENDING HIM EMAILS ALL YEAR, BY MYSELF, YOU CAN TOO, BUT IN A BIG, BIG WAY LIKE FROM THE SCENE!!!!!!
JUST MY 2 CENTS
360STL-LINUX-MOBB
Post by: Trex666 on May 13, 2007, 11:31:00 AM
Post by: Tribis on May 13, 2007, 11:55:00 AM
So cut the guy some slack for sharing his knowledge and trying to use those 6+ years at MIT for more than just having a couple of people in the "scene" acknowledge who he is for his talents, and many more who know nothing about computers or their Xbox gripe about "when are we getting homebrew", and then have small companies make big buck in the chip business.
The hacker scene died in the 80's, and was followed by the corrupt scene with the likes of DMS and code stealing and back stabbing.
I commend Bunnie for playing it clean.
Post by: Tribis on May 13, 2007, 12:23:00 PM
Post by: TheSpecialist on May 13, 2007, 12:53:00 PM
1. Hit 'em hard. Sue any hacker that is openly posting security related info, let alone release hacks. Kill those bastards
or2. Instead of trying to put them in jail, try to learn from them so you can improve the locks on your door.
I think it's good for everybody that MS is choosing the 2nd option and like in any relationship, both ends have to give the other end something ...
Sure, this will help MS to make security better and that might be 'bad news' for some of you, but even without hackers help: MS is learning and improving. Look how big an improvement the x360 security has made after the xbox 1. They're keeping the best ideas of a system (like the signing of software in xbox 1) and add improvements to the weak points. Next xbox version will for sure inherit the brilliant 'fuse' idea for example from the x360 and the weak points (DVD firmware) will be greatly improved. So, what I'm saying, with or without help from the hacking scene, I personally think we'll soon consoles that are really, truely 'unhackable'. Because contrary to popular belief, it's not just always a matter of time before a system gets hacked, if it's really good, it just becomes 'unhackable' at some point and I'm sure we're not THAT far away from that anymore, with or without help of the hacking scene...
Post by: atreyu187 on May 13, 2007, 12:52:00 PM
QUOTE(TheSpecialist @ May 13 2007, 07:53 PM)
I personally think it's a good thing they did this. I like it that the relationship between MS and the hacking scene is this good, that they're even inviting hackers over to talk about security. For a company there are 2 ways to deal with the hacking scene:
1. Hit 'em hard. Sue any hacker that is openly posting security related info, let alone release hacks. Kill those bastards
or2. Instead of trying to put them in jail, try to learn from them so you can improve the locks on your door.
I think it's good for everybody that MS is choosing the 2nd option and like in any relationship, both ends have to give the other end something ...
Sure, this will help MS to make security better and that might be 'bad news' for some of you, but even without hackers help: MS is learning and improving. Look how big an improvement the x360 security has made after the xbox 1. They're keeping the best ideas of a system (like the signing of software in xbox 1) and add improvements to the weak points. Next xbox version will for sure inherit the brilliant 'fuse' idea for example from the x360 and the weak points (DVD firmware) will be greatly improved. So, what I'm saying, with or without help from the hacking scene, I personally think we'll soon consoles that are really, truely 'unhackable'. Because contrary to popular belief, it's not just always a matter of time before a system gets hacked, if it's really good, it just becomes 'unhackable' at some point and I'm sure we're not THAT far away from that anymore, with or without help of the hacking scene...
Agreed.
Post by: Chamrock on May 13, 2007, 02:01:00 PM
Post by: Zanzang on May 13, 2007, 02:15:00 PM
This is exactly what happened last time: vulnerability discovered, reported to company, released to public.
Microsoft knew to listen this time instead of just blowing them off like they did back when they were informed of the xbox 1 vulnerabilities (not that they could have done very much since the vulnerable consoles were on the market and not nearly as update-able as the 360 system).
Besides, from what I gather Bunnie just gave a speech at a security event, it's not like he's getting a year round salary.
Post by: rgtaa on May 13, 2007, 02:23:00 PM
And I guess senior staff and other's that are into MODDing know some of these guys, and respect them, but, in their heart they must be shaking their head.
Also, putting it on front page of this site, and having HEAD MOD say it might be a good thing, and grown up thing to do, makes this site feel less like community to me, but , I could still be in shock, and in few days will see this differently.
Post by: TheIrishLad on May 13, 2007, 01:59:00 PM
Post by: gasclown on May 13, 2007, 02:10:00 PM
QUOTE(Tribis @ May 13 2007, 06:55 PM)
I commend Bunnie for playing it clean.
Well said.
Also, if you could make money out of doing something you love - you'd do it too - I say go for it. This is what your favourite band is doing. There will always be people willing and skillful enough to break security on consoles for whatever purpose, so the people calling 'traitor' can relax.
Post by: Chamrock on May 13, 2007, 02:51:00 PM
Post by: The Zep Man on May 13, 2007, 03:26:00 PM
Don't you guys see it? Bunnie will infiltrate the Xbox 360 security team to their highest ranks, sign some NDA's, get to know all the dirty exploits/backdoors/weaknesses Microsoft has made in the 360 architecture and go on a more-or-less permanent vacation to a country which does not apply any American law or treaty (including the 'release' of people who misbehaved to them) before releasing everything to the public. It's a bigger method of social engineering!
By the way, did I already mention that you shouldn't say this to anyone? I mean... I don't want to see Bunnie ending up at Microsoft's new office in Alaska (population with Bunnie working in that office: 1).
Post by: epsilon72 on May 13, 2007, 03:27:00 PM
QUOTE(mlmadmax @ May 13 2007, 09:55 AM)
It is going to be long time before homebrew on the 360.
I'm starting to think that there is no chance for it on the 360.
I guess I'll stick to PC gaming for the time being
Post by: DeMoN_DARREN on May 13, 2007, 05:00:00 PM
Plus.... I don't recall these guys getting paid a dime to hack the xbox, so all you guys who simply sit back and download or do what these guys spent ages doing for free then turn round and called them traitors, fuck you
Post by: xmod4u on May 13, 2007, 07:01:00 PM
QUOTE(englishnamja @ May 12 2007, 11:07 PM) 
doesnt this mean bunny has become a traitor which will just help M$ along the way with tips on out to patch errors and ways to stop running homebrew on the 360...
how is this a good thing...
My thoughts exactly, didn't even want to read further, the guy said what I was thinking.
Glorified hacker makes it big cuz of his hacks, thats ok!
but why announce that here, I know I don't care.
hop away...
Post by: echto on May 13, 2007, 07:07:00 PM
Post by: DooDahMan on May 13, 2007, 08:18:00 PM
QUOTE(rgtaa @ May 13 2007, 04:36 AM)
But because they did go to MS, and showed MS how to plug the leak, we don't have the 360 modded.
Oh but we do. Sure, right now all you can do is play backups, but for some such as myself, that's all we really need or care about. Anything else I'd like to do with a console is pretty much covered to my liking with the original Xbox.
Post by: Ninjaman on May 13, 2007, 07:49:00 PM
Remember with technology there is always a way...whether it be a full-hack or a partial-hack...there is always a way. If someone or some group engineered a console there is always someone or some group to reverse-engineer it.
Post by: englishnamja on May 13, 2007, 10:40:00 PM
Thanks
Post by: fmg420 on May 13, 2007, 10:23:00 PM
QUOTE(englishnamja @ May 13 2007, 12:07 AM)
doesnt this mean bunny has become a traitor which will just help M$ along the way with tips on out to patch errors and ways to stop running homebrew on the 360...
how is this a good thing...
clearly bunny should be sent back to vietnam....
my thoughts exactly...
Post by: Hopeful on May 13, 2007, 11:58:00 PM
Are all of you faithless whiners quick to forget, or just unable to read?
If you actually READ, you have nothing to worry over, UNLESS OF COURSE you're a pirate that only wants homebrew for "backups". Like he SAID, he's working with ms towards a legal way for TRUE homebrew, without activating piracy/backups.
***
Remember this guy is why you currently have ALL that unbridled fun with xbox 1.
Those quick to forget that are the only traitors.
I apologise personally that the whining crybabies don't understand this. Be a man for once in your lives, guys.
Just whatever you do, bunnie... don't turn away from the path towards homebrew. (But I don't think you will)
Post by: RiPpN-N-TrIppN on May 14, 2007, 12:56:00 AM
who cares what he does and who he does it with
just incase u didnt already no this bunnie is not the only smart asian guy in this world theres a few more out there
we dont have to rest every thing on his shoulders he has done more then enough for the xbox scene
what have u little bitches done apart from cry coz its not as easy to pirate games on the 360 as it is with the xbox
stop bitching and crack the 360 using your own steam
and bunnie would be a idiot if he didnt try to make as much money as possbile from M$
btw am i the only think that thinks bunnie looks like the dude outta Hereos ha
Rip
Post by: openxdkman on May 14, 2007, 01:31:00 AM
I) The Age
When you are very young and you manage to hack security, you feel a lots of pleasure in sharing the security hole you just opened with everyone (and not the manufacturer). Mainly because you are still student and you put freedom over everything else.
When you are grown up, with a wife, even maybe with children, you think differently. Your brain wants (even against your will) to get an easier and more comfortable life. Being allowed to discuss with manufacturer is an easier way to explore new possibilities...
Since next-gen is harder to hack and also requires hardware knowledge, it's not estonishing, people able to break in are quite mature ones. So that explains that both for ps3 and 360, we got some people wanting to discuss immediately with manufacturer. On ps3 two jobs got created this way for hackers. On 360 it may happen too now. This article may be a way to prepare us for that event.
To the people who rather like 'young' hackers, don't despair, each generation see a new bunch of them blooming... Also current 360 model (with thin and weak epoxy) is not worthy (unless you revamp seriously the hardware, by removing X clamps for example). We need homebrew yes, but on a better model, in order to keep enough machine working on the long term.
Only problem is that security will be much higher now on next firmware iterations.
II) The Risk
Just a reminder, if you put a foot in manufacturer homeland, you can be arrested. The fact that you have good friendly chats with engineers doesn't mean some high level executive won't take advantage of a law to crush you and get some "financial" advantages. So I suggest you continue your "chats" from a safe place without exposing yourself to some financial staff naughty temptation...
Another, more common risk, is that you just get hired for working on next console security (or worse, I fear, PC PCI express graphic/physics cards only accepting signed microcodes and signed data, allowing Vista monopoly on PC). Some kind of job offer you can't refuse, because of other threats...
C) Conclusion
There's no chance young and older hackers see this event the same way...
Personally, I don't think they will manage to convince MS to open legal homebrew. I think they will be hired and muted. But future can still tell me I was wrong... (unfortunately, from my own experience, I can say power is in the hands of financial people, not technical ones). But I don't blame them (I'm old), I just say they may have done a mistake, from the hacker point of view (if they were sincerely not interested in getting a new job).
Wait & See.
Difference with last gen console is that you will get homebrew only with old obsolete firmware versions (because security on last ones will be much higher, thanks to large unexpected help brought to manufacturers):
360: firmware 4532 or 4548
PS3: firmware <1.54 (let's say <=1.50, if possible with EE inside, for safety)
A good thing can come out from all this : the end of false hope.
The worst would be to let people believe new hacks will certainly occur for recent firmwares and have them miss opportunity to purchase the correct configurations. With the most probable event now obvious, people will be able to plan how to spend their money if they really want homebrew on a next gen console, instead of waiting forever.
For new incoming consoles, it may be the same thing : a little security hole (because humans are not perfect), some friendly hacker-engineer chat, leading to the publishing of the fix, giving people the knowledge of the vulnerable obsolete firmware version... We have to live with what we are given...
Post by: Chamrock on May 14, 2007, 02:13:00 AM
Post by: SuRgEx360 on May 14, 2007, 05:11:00 AM
just wait and see what comes of this situation.
Post by: rgtaa on May 14, 2007, 05:30:00 AM
What happened? Even the HEAD-mod is saying he is growing up and not into it like he was before, and doesn't see what these guys doing as that bad.
If I was on a football team, and we went into huddle and after huddle you went to opposite side and they paid you to tell them what was said in huddle, I would think that you would be a traitor. Why not here, these guys huddled with us, and now they are in opposite side. And some of you JOKERS are saying , ... "I would do the same thing for MONEY and it's just a game of football. I don't see anything wrong with it."
That is exactly what MS wants, to break apart the other team. And some of you guys say WAY TO GO MS.
Post by: yourM0M on May 14, 2007, 07:37:00 AM
Post by: rgtaa on May 14, 2007, 09:08:00 AM
It sounds like 2 levels to hacking/modding
1) the guys that like to "crack" the hardware/software ....just for the "fun of it" , learning security, etc, it's like a crossword puzzle, and THAT is WHERE the FUN is.
2) the Second level people are interested in doing cool stuff with Hardware now that it's "opened". The regular xbox I would not have bought if I could ONLY play xbox games on it. PERIOD! MANY here wouldn't have bought it. But all the excitement about what the community could do with it, that was exciting to me and many others here.
You first category guys, after "cracking" ... go tell MS how they did it because the "FUN" was in the "cracking". The others of us that would have liked to do "stuff" on the 360 other than what MS says we can do, are SCREWED! And that is "why" there are "two" sides here. You first level guys don't understand the "second level guys" ... and think we are all wrong to want to do other stuff on 360 other than what ms wants.
Post by: XBNormUK on May 14, 2007, 09:50:00 AM
QUOTE(rgtaa @ May 14 2007, 04:08 PM)
ok... came up with what I believe is the "problem". Here goes:
Nah, Im sorry, to me the problem is simply that the majority of people who populate the scene these days seem to think they have the right to demand people do this and that. Everyone is getting their knickers in a twist and whining on about what this means for the scene, well from where im sitting without these guys there wouldn't be a scene, certainly not as we know it now.
And what, people think because they have whacked a few chips in here and there, hey, maybe even done some soldering that they can demand stuff from these guys or judge them, come on most people in this scene can not begin to imagine the knowledge, determination, inspiration and opportunites that bunnie and co have given this scene. Without coming across totally kiss ass you guys should be thanking them not calling them sell outs. Certainly, all you guys who have made some coin out of modding xbox's should be giving these guys a cut!
Fact of the matter is, I think as technology gets more advanced, the line between piracy and homebrew which was once so hard to identify, will not only begin to appear, but will in time become very distinguishable, and Bunnie & co can probably see that and now need to distance themselves as much as they can from piracy. And rightly so, do you guys really think that they spent all that time and effort so you can get stuff fot free?! But hey, this is all bad news for you guys because thats all you interested in right?
Well, clearly Bunnie & co are driven by something a little more than saving a few quid here and there on some games. They have undoubtedly reached the top of their game in their chosen field. When that happens, the big guys come calling, and yeah, maybe they wave a big cheque in front of you, but ffs, its better than waving a summons infront of you.
Anyways, thats my rant, to be honest I really hope Bunnie & co dont even bother looking in on this thread, as it just seems to be full of uninformed insults.
If they do happen to look in I hope all they take from the scene is our thanks for creating the monster we all know and love, our admiration for all the work they have put in, and our sincerest best wishes for the future.
As for all those who think they can fill there boots, well hey, at least now you know your enemy! Good luck but I reckon the 360 is pretty locked down from here on in, but to be honest, looking forward, maybe the timing of Bunnie and co's introduction to MS willl coincide with MS starting initial dev on the next xbox. ;-)
This post has been edited by XBNormUK: May 14 2007, 04:55 PM
Post by: rgtaa on May 14, 2007, 11:53:00 AM
The bottom line is they obviously "don't want the 360 to be opened up" ... and taking "STEPS" to make sure it doesn't HAPPEN.
And many are saying "YES" way to go, good move to get Hired as MS Security section.
It's a SHAME that the community will "SLEEP" through this "new" trend.
Also, I think MS in a way would be "wise" to allow a small percent of pop. to explore "new" things community could come up with, if the 360 was "open". In a way , it's "free" development. And the 360 does have some stuff in it now that wasn't in first xbox.
Post by: JimmyGoon on May 14, 2007, 03:45:00 PM
QUOTE(Chamrock @ May 14 2007, 09:13 AM)
Hey Bunnie boy! If you got any donations I suggest you re-pay the donators! I honestly hope you did not got any donations since that will piss them of and future donators. Why the fuck should we donate to someone who tends to change side after som years? Hell to that! If you would like to donations you better stay with the scene and don't anal fuck with large companies.
If I were bunnie, I wouldn't want to help some prick like you... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
Jesus people, have some respect and consider why he might have done it. Have some patience...
Post by: halohack on May 14, 2007, 04:25:00 PM
They are NOT hired.
I think it was a great experience for these three guys and will benefit everyone in the end. (Except pirates and cheating modders which we can all do without.)
Post by: Iriez on May 14, 2007, 05:14:00 PM
You guys are bashing bunny? .....you know, the guy who is the entire reason you can do EVERYTHING you do today to your xbox? And the HV exploit for 360?
Man, some people need to get a grip, and take a fresh breath of reality. This guy still made the vurnerablilty public, despite having MS fix it. Thats something we have now, because of their efforts, regardless of submission to MS.
These are real people in the IT industry who are credited for their research and skills. This isnt some under-ground with/a/mask/on hacking contest. Nor is it a modchip manufactorer. These people are professionals with their career and reputation on the line.
Respect to bunny, mist, and tmbinc.
Post by: Hopeful on May 14, 2007, 08:08:00 PM
There is NO excuse.
I think anyone bitching and whining about bunnie should be banned. Trying to justify a reason/excuse should be a perm ban. Lucky the mods are more lenient than me.
These ingrate douches hang off the scene contributing nothing, yet still toss in 2 cents, making us all look ungrateful. What's embarrassing is, they brainlessly misinterpret the situation because they can't wrap their mind fully around it. Then they let that whiny feces just... dribble out in the form of misinformed posts and accusations. They're just a minority of people and and if they deserve anything, it's a ban. Giving us all a bad name is the only thing these people are smart enough to do in life.
You can be bitches on your own time, but don't make THE SCENE look like we don't appreciate bunnie and other super-experts, ya douches.
It's simple. If you contribute nothing, don't insult our greatest blessings... So just a question here... Why exactly are we allowing this weak, leeching scum to even stay?Fuck all the whining leech dumbasses who want to insult the true experts.
Just letting bunnie know, these idiots don't represent the majority of us, they're just the LOUDEST since they're crying retardedly.
Post by: tjc2k4 on May 15, 2007, 01:11:00 AM
QUOTE(Hopeful @ May 15 2007, 03:08 AM)
There are still bitches whining ungratefully? WOW!
There is NO excuse.
I think anyone bitching and whining about bunnie should be banned. Trying to justify a reason/excuse should be a perm ban. Lucky the mods are more lenient than me.
These ingrate douches hang off the scene contributing nothing, yet still toss in 2 cents, making us all look ungrateful. What's embarrassing is, they brainlessly misinterpret the situation because they can't wrap their mind fully around it. Then they let that whiny feces just... dribble out in the form of misinformed posts and accusations. They're just a minority of people and and if they deserve anything, it's a ban. Giving us all a bad name is the only thing these people are smart enough to do in life.
You can be bitches on your own time, but don't make THE SCENE look like we don't appreciate bunnie and other super-experts, ya douches. wink.gif It's simple. If you contribute nothing, don't insult our greatest blessings... So just a question here... Why exactly are we allowing this weak, leeching scum to even stay?
Fuck all the whining leech dumbasses who want to insult the true experts.
Just letting bunnie know, these idiots don't represent the majority of us, they're just the LOUDEST since they're crying retardedly.
100% agreed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)
(fully quoted for emphasis because these tend to be the same types who don't read posts over 2 lines (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) )
This post has been edited by tjc2k4: May 15 2007, 08:15 AM
Post by: Chamrock on May 15, 2007, 01:59:00 AM
Post by: Hopeful on May 15, 2007, 03:18:00 AM
QUOTE(Chamrock @ May 15 2007, 08:59 AM)
I don't blame Bunnies contribution to the Xbox1 scene, but his side switch to MS feels very contradictory as we all worshipped him and never had any thought that he would be a puppet of MS. What I am saying is if someone ask for donation and use it for his own profiting and leave the scene I have no respect for such beahaviour. Bunnie is out of the game and we should all leave him and forget him. If he switched over to another company when it comes to secure solutions I would not blame him as much, but work for MS is a bit of treachery in my eyes. Thank for the Xbox finding, but fuck you for licking MS ass!
Oh look! A crying ungrateful douche trying to justify it yet again.
How thick are these peoples' skulls? They're almost not worth typing at when they come in and much shit up, right?
It doesn't matter "what you're saying" Whiney McRetard. You're not in a seat to blame anything. What qualifies you to judge experts? You're some random non-contributing douche. It's a douchebag move any way you try to 'explain' it. It ends up either moronic or ungrateful. Trying to explain or justify it only makes it dumber. Get over yourself, and learn to be a man. STOP.
The only traitorous act is turning sour towards bunnie for wanting a little security after all he has done for you. Truly pathetic. By the way, the last sentence in that quote: pure ironic moron gold. Also, anyone with even a little expertise understands the true reasons that bunnie is going about this, and have agreed this is beneficial, in ways that aren't worth explaining to the thick skulled or impatient. (Also if your goal is partly about some vendetta against microsoft, rather than homebrew itself, you just might have bigger issues.)
I don't know who made you think you were decorated enough to make judgments on the experts. Bunnie has proven his roots to those that count, and that's not you, ya random non-contributing douche. Check yourself; Your opinion truly... does not matter.
Same goes to anyone else retarded enough to whine about this.
Remaining whiny retards, please, let this be an example: Shut up, apologize, drop it and be a MAN for once in your life.
Stop making us all look bad. The scene supports bunnie. If you don't, go elsewhere.
This post has been edited by Hopeful: May 15 2007, 10:20 AM
Post by: Hopeful on May 15, 2007, 02:57:00 AM
QUOTE(tjc2k4 @ May 15 2007, 08:11 AM)
100% agreed
(fully quoted for emphasis because these tend to be the same types who don't read posts over 2 lines
)Hah, we got another of those stupid douches RIGHT after.
True proof that they either never read, or they're actually trained monkeys in real life. Cheers to well timed demonstrations. Post by: rgtaa on May 15, 2007, 06:28:00 AM
Can you please explain how what Bunnie did by going to MS helps the Modding community?
And if others find a "loophole" and immediately "go to MS' and share it , explain how that is a "good" thing.
Doesn't MS have their own "security" people that are "well paid" doing security, do they need "hackers doing their job for them", please explain.
Thanks ( and please no childish name calling , it only makes you look "immature". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
This post has been edited by rgtaa: May 15 2007, 01:32 PM
Post by: openxdkman on May 15, 2007, 06:30:00 AM
The clan that suffers because they realized they are bond to homebrew with old obsolete firmwares (forcing them to a new purchase since they have already upgraded) shouldn't be so harsh. It's better than nothing. And the hackers scene is not a prison. You have the right to leave it if you feel so (even if you are one of the best hackers).
The clan that claims that criticizing the hackers who contributed the most is unforgivable should realize that you are always responsible of your acts, even if you earned the nobel prize before the act. So when you commit a surprising act, you have to accept critics (even whining, with soft words).
This post has been edited by openxdkman: May 15 2007, 01:34 PM
Post by: rgtaa on May 15, 2007, 10:27:00 AM
Thanks for writing what you did, and the way you went about it. You summed it up, perfectly for me!
Was hoping someone would "tell it the way it is"... at least "the way I was feeling it".
Was surprised the HEADMOD took a position of "growing up and moving on".. because he is a very cool guy and I would hate for him to "out-grow" us! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
This post has been edited by rgtaa: May 15 2007, 05:29 PM
Post by: gehx on May 15, 2007, 10:42:00 AM
Seriously, It's all good...if he did sell out (purely speculation of course), he's certainly not the only hacker out there.
Everyone needs to relax...we'll see homebrew on the 360 someday...however, it probably won't be for awhile.
This post has been edited by gehx: May 15 2007, 05:47 PM
Post by: Hopeful on May 15, 2007, 04:22:00 PM
QUOTE(openxdkman @ May 15 2007, 01:30 PM)
The clan that claims that criticizing the hackers who contributed the most is unforgivable should realize that you are always responsible of your acts, even if you earned the nobel prize before the act. So when you commit a surprising act, you have to accept critics (even whining, with soft words).
I was with you until then.
You can't consider it an offensive 'act' that someone stops giving you wonderful gifts, just because you're used to the ones you already got. That's called being a worthless numb-nutted ingrate. We're not "owed" more gifts. You don't have to accept critics who are upset only because they're being ungrateful spoiled kids.
Bunnie gave us the whole xbox as a gift. It's not like he took that gift back. He doesn't owe us the 360, he doesn't owe us anti-ms sentiment since it was never an anti-ms thing but a fun thing, and he certainly deserves his credit for what he's DONE FOR US no less than he ever did. Those that thought this was a war against ms, give it up. It was always just a quest to get homebrew, and explore the power possibilities of the hardware.
Besides, I don't think he's stopped giving us gifts anyway. If you stop to read, bunnie wants to show ms how to give us true homebrew without any risk of losing revenue. This is the only way ms may consider such a thing. And this may be the only way we see real homebrew any time soon. Bunnie knows this, and wants to help us. The guy is still fighting for us in the most efficient way he knows, and he's still getting ungrateful whiners. Not cool.
Simply stop whining and that's it, ok. It's kind of a ree-hee-h-eally douchey move to *expect* someone to continue giving you awesome gifts, rather than being super-grateful and sated with the ones you already got. (For, you know, free.)
The rest of your post has valid points.
There's no excuse for ungrateful whiners giving the guy shit. Sorry, don't try to make one.
This post has been edited by Hopeful: May 15 2007, 11:41 PM
Post by: rgtaa on May 15, 2007, 05:41:00 PM
Not only "gamers" could be upset, but MS could be upset too, because these guys were the people who "hacked" the first xbox. And many people here wrote on their behalf, "it's these guys" that cracked the first xbox and got away with it. So in trying to "help" them, you actually "pointed them out in LINEUP".
If M.S. was unclear beforehand. Or upper management was un-clear... you guys just "made it clear" in no uncertain language.
If you haven't talked to Lawyer, do it now, maybe someone on Board is lawyer , and can explain the situation a lot better than me. Are their dangers in what they did? I'm looking at this from "protecting" these guys.
P.S. maybe this thread should go in shredder... for their sake. I'm not sure they thought it through, maybe a lawyer can "write" something here, to shed some "light" on this matter.
Post by: Hopeful on May 15, 2007, 09:24:00 PM
QUOTE(rgtaa @ May 16 2007, 12:41 AM)
Would these guys need lawyers to advise them beforehand on what the consequences could be?
Not only "gamers" could be upset, but MS could be upset too, because these guys were the people who "hacked" the first xbox. And many people here wrote on their behalf, "it's these guys" that cracked the first xbox and got away with it. So in trying to "help" them, you actually "pointed them out in LINEUP".
If M.S. was unclear beforehand. Or upper management was un-clear... you guys just "made it clear" in no uncertain language.
If you haven't talked to Lawyer, do it now, maybe someone on Board is lawyer , and can explain the situation a lot better than me. Are their dangers in what they did? I'm looking at this from "protecting" these guys.
P.S. maybe this thread should go in shredder... for their sake. I'm not sure they thought it through, maybe a lawyer can "write" something here, to shed some "light" on this matter. (Ridiculous)
Oh my GOD. Just STOP WHINING kiddies.
Anything to jab at the situation?
Anything to save face, Any excuse to keep bitching?
STOP IT.
By the way don't even try this angle. It was clear from the start.
A) It's one of the reasons ms met up with the guy in the first place.
If it hadn't been, the whiners like you pointed it out here and other places long ago from the start of the topic.C) Quit it. Admit you're wrong. Give up.
If he wanted anonymity, bunnie wouldn't have explained exactly who he was and met up with ms, in the manner that his blog describes. He also wouldn't have described how he's relieved to escape the anonymity. (Which you obviously haven't read for all your 'mere concern about the safety of the guy'.) You're indignant that hacking was "deserted", and trying to find a ridicule angle AND save face. Just give it up and admit it. This has to be the silliest excuse yet.
Stop making excuses to whine, and most of all...
Stop whining. Be men for once.
Post by: rgtaa on May 16, 2007, 06:08:00 AM
Hopefully you will come to realize that bunnies actions did effect some members of MOD community.
And this site is where modders come and gather, and writing that bunnie gave away "loophole" to MS could get some people upset.
There is no "right/wrong" here but his actions do have consequences, and it does effect others, including the MOD community.
Post by: caster420 on May 16, 2007, 02:34:00 PM
QUOTE
http://www.bunniestudios.com/wordpress/?p=173 Wednesday, May 16th, 2007 There are some important misconceptions that need to be corrected.
1. I did no technical work on the Xbox 360 hack. Felix Domke (tmbinc) is the true technical genius behind the hack — please give him proper credit for his hard work. My role in this is entirely diplomatic; I was consulted because my previous work on the Xbox meant I was already familiar with the legal risks and the best contact methods. And, as with any hack, there were many other unsung heros involved who are forced to choose anonymity due to risks and circumstances out of their control.
2. No money was involved. The hack was reported to Microsoft per legal requirements, and per security industry standard operating practice. It is no coincidence that this is the exact same path that was taken on the first Xbox hacks (Hypertransport, 007 and Dashboard). The difference is that this time, Microsoft took the time to listen, and eventually invited us to their house to give a talk.
3. Finally, this was the opportunity to tell Microsoft that locking out low-level code development (and consequently Linux) will never work. It’s neither sound technically nor good for business development in the long term. We believe they have listened. Although this approach has never been tried before, based on their reactions, future Microsoft devices may not lock out homebrew; at least, we have planted the seeds of a feasible technical and business path to such a future in key minds at Microsoft.
In closing, I don’t think Microsoft is right in locking down hardware to outside developers; I also don’t think that the pirates are right, either. As a result, I must walk a fine gray line, and I am continuously faced with many a difficult and ambiguous decision.
And, http://www.bunniestudios.com/wordpress/?p=171#comments, who posted in the comment round on a previous blog entry:
“The reason to stay anonymous so long was…about not getting sued. But after Bluehat, it become clear that this was no issue anymore.
And my strict demand for working on a project like free60 is that i can publish stuff in public, under my real name, without hiding anything, and still be able to sleep well at night. This would not have been possible if we hadn’t worked together with Microsoft."
-Caster.
Post by: Hopeful on May 16, 2007, 03:52:00 PM
QUOTE(rgtaa @ May 16 2007, 01:08 PM)
Guy, I admit I don't know all the "facts" .
Hopefully you will come to realize that bunnies actions did 'effect' some members of MOD community (and their expectation of this being handed for free to them sooner)
And this site is where [leeches] come and gather, and writing that bunnie gave away [the] "loophole" to MS could get some [leeches] upset.
There is no "right/wrong" here but his actions do have consequences, and it does effect others, including the MOD community.
Oh we all realize that. Quite obvious that they EXIST. Also known as "Worthless ungrateful bitches". (The issue: Exterminating them.)
They contribute WHAT? Bitching over not getting their free mods/info soon enough?! WHOA BIG MEN HUH?
Bitching about bunnie/felix for this is simply nonsense and greed. (Dumb too, since this is partly to take the best shot at getting homebrew.) "Guy I admit I don't know all the facts" No one absorbs the whole situation before making a comment. NICE.) And uh, sorry but no one is 'accountable' to leeches who depend on copying your free research and work for their mere entertainment.
We're ALL leeching off bunnie's discoveries, and Felix's, who is a part of this too. And every other developer working hard for us yet working also to avoid legal issues. Their chosen methods of giving us things for free, are above any "Judgements" douchebag users can ungratefully spew as "consequences" for not "sharing good/fast enough". You are wrong. Stop trying to find ways to excuse being a douche about it, and express gratitude already.
Those of you BITCHING that you weren't given this FREEBIE in the exact fast+unsafe way you WANTED... are insignificant reapers of someone else's hard work and it's not good enough for you. A.K.A Douches. If any of you is aching to PROVE you have no spine or brain... Say something negative about this. The fellas chose to protect themselves a little before kindly GIVING it to you. Anyone who could complain towards that is truly a worthless pig, and never deserved to leech the scene's free knowledge.
BTW. HAHA
I like how it switches to passing it off as "i'm really looking at the legal protection of these guys" for a second then when proven wrong switches back to "look of course it's going to make some of us ingrates angry". NICE. Have some personal accountability. Stop blaming CONTRIBUTORS for not risking their neck exactly the way you want. Thanks. Thanks for calling me "guy" too. If anything, we should be thanking bunnie and felix for all their generously HUGE sharing, and CONGRATULATING them for their personal successes.
LETS ALL lay off the twatful greedy bitchfulness and congratulate the man gratefully. Or, those of us not man enough to do that
keep your mouth shut From all of our homebrew/linux collections which would be impossible without the sharing of such brilliant minds, I thank you bunnie, felix and all the un-named contributors for the possibilities you have and continue to provide this community. You have truly given us a lot. Congratulations in finding some relaxing success and fun. Good luck in the fight for true homebrew.
SALUTES!
Post by: rgtaa on May 16, 2007, 05:28:00 PM
You are "cute" when you "whine"!
I like how you "bracketed" what you said I wrote and my "actual statement" of what I said differ. I guess you have no problems "re-writing" history.
I didn't whine bro, you are. And you do it very well. You are pretty good at it!
If I feel and many others feel that what bunnie and you are doing is "strange" , accept it and move on. I took the label right/wrong out of the equation. And the fact that you have to "get so worked up over it" ... shows me that you must be very young or emotionally unstable. Go rant all you want. Intelligent people differ on many subjects, and can disagree in a "adult" way, obviously you have not learned that yet... judging by how you "can't even quote what I did say, but you had to re-write it in a way that was vulgar and not what I said. Others can read what I wrote and your quote of what I wrote and see that TRUTH of what you are "really" about.
I'm okay with that.
Peace
Post by: rgtaa on May 16, 2007, 06:08:00 PM
Please allow some people to feel "upset" with this development. (I don't expect HOPEFUL to cut me any slack).Also, my earlier remarks about "lawyers' was only because I really didn't know if they were "protected" or not, so, even though I might not have liked what they did, I didn't wish them any "trouble" either.
Sorry for double post but after reading what Caster420 thought , I felt that I should at least post that what he relayed was very helpful for me to at "least understand the reasoning behind their acts".
Thanks Caster420 for reposting that.
Peace
Post by: openxdkman on May 17, 2007, 01:02:00 AM
Bluehat conference
- Bunnie & Co : "We helped you to fix the hole. We have ideas allowing homebrew without piracy. Can we have legal homebrew now?"
- MS engineer : "Thanks a lot. Yes, that would be a great idea. Let me talk with my hierarchy first."
MS headquarters
- MS engineer : "We received help from homebrew scene. Can we accept their demand for legal homebrew?"
- MS executive : "Will that raise our money income?"
- MS engineer : "Eh... no."
- MS executive : "Forget it."
About whining or thanking. I can't really do something global :
- Finding the exploit : "Thanks a lots tmbinc, you are a true genius!"
- Revealing it in early 2007 (doesn't matter to who yet) : "Arggg... Hardware is not reliable yet! Too soon!" (just publishing which firmware is vulnerable, anonymously would have been fantastic!)
- Revealing to MS first and wait for firmware fix before opening homebrew on vulnerable firmware:
"Well, a lots will upgrade without knowing what they miss, but if you are seeking a normal life and avoid the outlaw life, it's an acceptable reason. You certainly deserve it."
- Trading help against legal homebrew with MS engineers : "Good luck. However, keep in mind bottom of MS hierarchy can be sincerely gentle but top of MS hierarchy can just behave like sharks... independently."
Judging globally all these actions is too hard. At least for me.
I want to say something about console xbox360 lack of reliability (that's my whining: too early exploit) :
There is certainly a significant "hardware failure rate" for the first 18 months of a purchased console (because of epoxy low quality).
I can't imagine there isn't, as well, a significant "abandon rate", i.e people don't bother repair (especially outside united states). So, and it's a big difference with Wii and ps3, if MS is boasting about a high global sale (shipping) figure, let's say 20M, if we take in consideration both the "hardware failure rate" and the "abandon rate", it's possible the installed base (working) will be just 10M. Later when MS is boasting again about new sale (shipping) figure 2 years later, let's say 30M, it's possible the installed base (working) will be just 12M. Of course I'm not pretending predicting anything precise, but I want to say that it's possible that high "hardware failure rate" creates a very unexpected fate for this console. The number of people subscribing to Live would be an interesting figure to survey. However I fear subscribers will be a merge of xbox360 users and Windows users since you can now subscribe to Live as a Windows user. So this figure won't be so relevant... (unfortunately).
In other words, we may have really missed homebrew on reliable MS next-gen console hardware... unless the "trade" of Bunnie & Co succeeds... But you know why I'm not optimistic about this "trade". But it may be worthy to sacrifice that console, just to see if that kind of "trade" can work with MS...
If "trade" fails, this attempt will be surely judged as "naive" afterwards.
If "trade" succeeds, personally, I will just shout "MIRACLE!".
Now something out of topic :
I'm really interested in knowing "hw failure rate" and "abandon rate".
I suggest someone to create a site that ask people to register at least 10 users they know (more if they can). That excludes lonely players, but aiming only massive groups of players should help to get good statistic accuracy and we dont' care about players that play only 1 day per month offline (doesn't stress epoxy enough, and yes there are games out there that offer a solo campaign you can finish in 1 day!)... Need to register first name, last name, still using console or gave up, number of hw failure, number of purchase, number of replacement through warranty, first date of purchase, model, etc... Then a database allows to discard doublons, and if result is not the same for doublons mark that person as unreliable statistic source if changes are incompatible or just update existing entry with updated data. Then calculate "hw failure rate" and "abandon rate" based on reliable statistic sources found in database. It should be an independant, ad-less, site.