Post by: Xbox-Scene on January 02, 2006, 11:21:00 PM
Bunnie about Xbox 360 Kiosk Demo Disc-- Posted by XanTium on January 3 00:45 EST
Bunnie posted some comments on his blog about the recent findings with the Xbox360 Kiosk Demo Disc (read these newsitems to catch-up if you missed it: Disc release, More info, Shaders editing and Run own swf).
Andrew "bunnie" Huang is one of the main guys behind the original Xbox hacking, he's also known for his book "Hacking the Xbox". Here's what he said on his blog:
Quote
I've also been observing the progress on the Xbox360 hacking, and I'm impressed. The hacking scene is more or less an organized anarchy that is frightfully productive. Now that I've had a little brush with being a manager in my day job, I can see that clarity of purpose obviates the need for management; people just self-organize and things happen. I could ponder on this for many parargaphs, but I'll spare you my treatise on human social behavior.
At any rate, some very interesting things are afoot. Much of it stems from the discovery of an all-media bootable kiosk demo disk. Many hackers will instantly recognize the value of this, but it's still interesting to reflect on the significance of this find.
Like the original Xbox, the Xbox360 uses a media flag on its executables. The media flag tells the OS what type of media it should be on; typically, games are released with the flag set to Microsoft's proprietary secure Xbox DVD format (which is in itself not that secure...). Significantly, only the executable is signed for a game; the data sections typically are not signed (presumably for performance reasons). Thus, one has the ability to fuzz the executable by corrupting the data sections, potentially invoking a buffer overrun or some other unintentional behavior-if one could effectively modify the data sections. Remember that this is normally not possible, since modifying the data segment requires making a copy to a writeable media, and this contradicts the signed media flag.
Thus, the run-anywhere demo disk now enables software hackers to create and test the interaction of signed executables with modified game data using no tool other than a DVD-RW drive (and an Xbox360 console, still considerably rare and difficult to obtain in the US). Some of the more interesting modifiable data regions include Shockwave Flash movies, and the pixel shaders executed by the GPU (more info can be found on the xboxhacker.net website). Of particular interest is the MEMEXPORT shader command in the 360, which could enable people to dump physical memory to the screen (where it can be digitized or extracted with a sniffer upstream of the ANA chip), or to some other peripheral function. Presuming plaintext kernel code can be extracted this way, it bootstraps further efforts in vulnerability analysis of the code running in the Xbox...and so forth. Of course, its quite possible that this hole is plugged, since Microsoft's NGSCB spec calls for the Northbridge to limit DMA access from the graphics card to main memory. Furthermore, buffer overrun exploits have questionable applicability since each process runs as its own virtual machine and rumors has it that the no-execute bit is used on heap space. Still, I'm very surprised that such a media was even released into the wild by Microsoft...their own worst enemy is their own haste to get to the market and carelessness; security is for naught without consideration of human factors. Very exciting! Perhaps the Xbox360 will be opened without the need for significant hardware hacking.
Post by: RocketMBA on January 02, 2006, 10:49:00 PM
Post by: NeoJew on January 02, 2006, 11:07:00 PM
Post by: genecyber on January 02, 2006, 11:31:00 PM
Pardon me if I'm babbling, I have been with the swf part of the kiosk disc dev since the begining and am very excited to see it grow to an enthusiastic group of organized dev's.
Post by: mrjiggles139 on January 03, 2006, 12:34:00 AM
some people...
Post by: Liquidvlade Hiraduo on January 03, 2006, 12:37:00 AM
Post by: xboxexpert on January 03, 2006, 01:30:00 AM
QUOTE(RocketMBA @ Jan 3 2006, 12:56 AM) 
Yes, because "Bunnie" is the authority on life. Still, nice to hear the words of said talking rabbit on said disc.
Some people's minds are just not as advanced as others. If you are young and have no idea about flag's and buffer overflow's then dont comment. This is a very enlightening post from bunny and I hope people take it as a point in the right direction. I my self would be full force on the reverse engineering of the 360 system or any media I could get my hands on . If I could just find a 360 within a 30 mile radius. Until then keep up the good work people.
Post by: xboxexpert on January 03, 2006, 01:04:00 AM
Post by: alienindahizouse2 on January 03, 2006, 01:28:00 AM
LOLOL
Post by: adeon on January 03, 2006, 04:28:00 AM
QUOTE
Very exciting! Perhaps the Xbox360 will be opened without the need for significant hardware hacking.
!!!
but I still wanna do HARDWARE HACKING.. the xecuter LCD runs off the hardware hacks.. I hope something like this happens with the 360!!..
Post by: luther349 on January 03, 2006, 05:22:00 AM
Post by: flashfreak on January 03, 2006, 04:48:00 AM
Also, standing it up would stop this working, not stop it but make it...stupid.
But progress is coming along nicely. I was thinking, if i was rich and had millions to throw away, i'd fully pay for an event to get all the best xbox hackers together, some of the best people around, with all the hardware and software necessary. Sounds stupid, but if every1 was together at once, they could probably think the whole mod/hack idea through without even trying it
Post by: TSOPrano on January 03, 2006, 05:07:00 AM
QUOTE(flashfreak @ Jan 3 2006, 12:55 PM) 
An LCD would be hard to put in the 360. If it was b/n the ring of light and dvd or suttin, there would need to be a hole in the faceplate, and if u changed faceplates then it'd cover up the lcd.
Also, standing it up would stop this working, not stop it but make it...stupid.
People actually buy LCD hardware add-on's?
Seemed pointless unless one had binoculars.
Post by: Troed on January 03, 2006, 05:24:00 AM
QUOTE(mrjiggles139 @ Jan 3 2006, 08:41 AM)
whats the sarcasm about RocketMBA? id like to see you accomplish/contribute a TENTH of what bunnie has done for the scene.
some people...With all due respect to bunnie, I think I have the discussions on Xbox v1.1 from xboxhacker.net (old version) saved where bunnie clearly states in a thread where Andy, visor, myself and others were discussing the new protections that he (bunnie) didn't feel he had the knowledge to contribute.
There's no single person who did everything with regards to the Xbox. What bunnie did was extremely important (and a huge accomplishment) - but please don't try to make too much of it either. He did one part, others did theirs.
I don't even think these comments on the kiosk disc are especially interesting - since I think he's wrong to assume MS didn't on purpose sign it for use on DVD+-R as well. They're relying, totally, on their other protections - which I feel is obvious since they haven't protected the content on the hard drive.
(And yes, before you reply, I have contributed - have you?)
Post by: modthebox.tk on January 03, 2006, 05:34:00 AM
He may not join us directly, but he will indirectly.
QUOTE
(And yes, before you reply, I have contributed - have you?)
When it is the right time and place I will
.Post by: Serious Sam on January 03, 2006, 07:23:00 AM
Post by: feflicker on January 03, 2006, 09:56:00 AM
QUOTE
There's no single person who did everything with regards to the Xbox. What bunnie did was extremely important (and a huge accomplishment) - but please don't try to make too much of it either. He did one part, others did theirs.
Bunny sniffed a high-speed hyper-transport bus that MS$ engineers didn't even believe was possible using his own custom built tools in an MIT Lab. In-fact, it is believed that he was the first person to effectively sniff this type of bus. He was able to obtain the secret ROM and the RC4... He discovered how the memory tables worked and decrypted the 2nd bootloader, making it possible to "patch" the BIOS. He was able to get ALL of the information required to "start" the scene. Without Bunnies work the rest of the achievements would have been meaningless/impossible (booting from lpc, hacking dash fonts, etc).
Could someone else eventually have done it? Sure. But they didn't, Bunnie did it.
I do not claim to be an x86 architecture expert, but I have been reading about the scene for years now... If there is anyone else out there that did anything remotely as important/difficult as Bunnie did, please, fill me and the scene in
EDIT: Forgot to post on the actual topic
This is good news from the Bunnie camp. He throws out a few possibilities for sniffing, and even talks about some of the 360's security (some if it even unproven). Looks like the Kiosk disc got more than just a few punk kids excited, and that is good news for the scene
Post by: theiz on January 03, 2006, 10:13:00 AM
For N00B's like me
: What is the story on Bunnie regading the 360?I know he did a great deal on the XBOX1, but why is he not contributing directly on the 360?
Post by: thebroken on January 03, 2006, 10:23:00 AM
Post by: feflicker on January 03, 2006, 10:35:00 AM
QUOTE
no one is sure why not he has just said he doesn't want to be a key contributor
He's also made statements about how difficult it will be, as MS$ has done a much better job with security. I am sure the guy has a life to, so maybe he just doesn't have time...
You know deep down he would like to be the guy (again) though
Post by: feflicker on January 03, 2006, 11:05:00 AM
QUOTE
You haven't been reading much if you're seriously asking. It's very true that sniffing the RC4 key in Xbox v1.0 was vital - and that the rest followed - but that does not mean that other achievements (like accessing MCPX secret bootcode) were not equally as important.
My post was a "hey, there were lots of others besides bunnie" - not a "bunnie didn't do much" (because he indeed did - that sniffer was very impressive).
My post was a "hey, there were lots of others besides bunnie" - not a "bunnie didn't do much" (because he indeed did - that sniffer was very impressive).
I wouldn't be the scenes first choice as person to argue for Bunnie, I can admit that. I don't know all the details, but I definately know more than most. I do believe that Bunny was the one who dumped/analyzed the secret code btw (at least some whitepapers say it was him). Regardless, I get your point and I see where you were/are coming from
I agree with you on the 1.1, thankfully they had the 1.0 to learn from. It was less than a week before the 1.1 was cracked with the info from the 1.0
Here's to hoping the next Bunnie is out there right now with an Xbox360 and a bunch of homeade tools in a lab on the verge of a breakthrough
Post by: fol1c on January 03, 2006, 11:16:00 AM
Post by: axess68 on January 03, 2006, 11:53:00 AM
QUOTE(fol1c @ Jan 3 2006, 07:23 PM)
I think the reason Bunnie might not be helping in the scene, is because MS paid him some money, or had a talk with him. I don't know, i just have this feeling MS had something todo with him not helping out.
Ahh, but like any good miscreant, he can't resist.
I think Bunnie's message was very cryptic... and the meaning was "You're on the RIGHT TRACK. Keep at it!"
Post by: fol1c on January 03, 2006, 12:26:00 PM
QUOTE(axess68 @ Jan 3 2006, 08:00 PM)
Ahh, but like any good miscreant, he can't resist.
I think Bunnie's message was very cryptic... and the meaning was "You're on the RIGHT TRACK. Keep at it!"
agreed
Post by: RX3 on January 03, 2006, 01:33:00 PM
Back when he hacked the Xbox, The Department of Justice used the DMCA to shut down ISOnews.com, a Web site partly used to distribute Xbox-hacking tools, and sent the site's owner to prison. This scared the crap out of Bunnie I'm sure.
Post by: axess68 on January 03, 2006, 03:03:00 PM
QUOTE(RX3 @ Jan 3 2006, 09:40 PM)
Back when he hacked the Xbox, The Department of Justice used the DMCA to shut down ISOnews.com, a Web site partly used to distribute Xbox-hacking tools, and sent the site's owner to prison. This scared the crap out of Bunnie I'm sure.
Doesn't that situation sound asanine to you? Imagine the conversation in prison: Webmaster: "What are you in for?" , Prisoner: "I killed a bunch of people. What about you?", Webmaster: "I pissed off MS by distributing pirate programs on my website."
Sending people to prison because of a DMCA violation is just asanine. I can think of LOTS more REAL CRIMINALS that deserve that guy's spot in a cell.
Post by: myst1x on January 03, 2006, 05:21:00 PM
QUOTE(axess68 @ Jan 3 2006, 05:10 PM)
Doesn't that situation sound asanine to you? Imagine the conversation in prison: Webmaster: "What are you in for?" , Prisoner: "I killed a bunch of people. What about you?", Webmaster: "I pissed off MS by distributing pirate programs on my website."
Sending people to prison because of a DMCA violation is just asanine. I can think of LOTS more REAL CRIMINALS that deserve that guy's spot in a cell.
Unfortunately, even though it is completely ridiculous, it's what happens.
On topic:
Yes, Bunnie's message could have been cryptic... but, then again, not. People might be reading too deeply into his words because they're hoping too hard that Bunnie will come through big like he has in the past. The 360 will be cracked eventually, we just need to find some breakthroughs that make it sooner rather than later.
Post by: MaTiAz on January 03, 2006, 05:27:00 PM
It sucks, I know.
Post by: Bizquick on January 04, 2006, 09:42:00 AM
Anyway I agree with most of you about these guys going to prison for copyright infrigment. I think its serious but at the same time there is no way I would think these guys should sit in a cell. When they have so many child rapest's and killers out there. I think lock up is for real harsh crimes. not this software infrigment. I say software crimes need a diffrent court system. I mean if you copy a game one month and the price is 50.00 and then 4 or 5 months later the price drops to half or less. then your not steeling 50.00 your taking 25 or less,
Post by: Math1 on January 04, 2006, 09:38:00 PM
Stealing is stealing. If you make your living making a product and people steal it, how is that any different than coming to your house and ripping off your property? You guys claim to like games and gaming, yet you seem to see nothing wrong with ripping off the people who make them. Games aren't made by faceless giant corporaitons, they are made by VERY hardworking people who pay bills, raise kids, and feed their families. Ripping off software or music or movies is every bit as much a crime as stealing their possessions directly would be.
As to Bunnie, he did some great and complicated work on the Xbox and his method of sniffing the bus was really clever. It helped that he had access to an MIT lab full of equipment -- and that he is really, really smart
I did get a little tired of his claims to pure motives based on his concerns over the Xbox security. And also was pretty surprised that MIT would actually support his publication of a paper on the subject. He did it for the same reason a lot of people hack systems -- to see if he could. Trying to justify it as something more seems a little weak. I owul dguess he isn't too involved inXbox 360 becaue he has better things to do -- lik emaking a living
There really is nothing noble about this stuff -- it is just a hobby that is intellectually challenging and it opens up a lot of new uses for the hardware -- but we shouldn't kid ourselves that we aren't in the process opening up the box for criminals to exploit for piracy.
Personally, I think they should have made the 360 easy to do homebrew for, but secure for commercial games. But then, the hackers who only care about piracy would have to admit their motives. And it wouldn't be nearly as much fun as trying to figure out a way around the security.
Post by: maxus on January 05, 2006, 10:37:00 AM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on January 05, 2006, 10:46:00 AM
Post by: feflicker on January 05, 2006, 03:59:00 PM
QUOTE
People who were important to early Xbox Hacking.. and claim to not be helping this time around, may very well be doing so but under a new assumed alias. Food for thought
Once again the blue-bastard speaks wisely
Post by: Ballz2TheWallz on January 06, 2006, 03:13:00 PM
QUOTE(HSDEMONZ @ Jan 5 2006, 06:53 PM)
People who were important to early Xbox Hacking.. and claim to not be helping this time around, may very well be doing so but under a new assumed alias. Food for thought.
hs knows someything the scene doesnt
hardocp ftw
Post by: Pluttiplutt on January 06, 2006, 07:55:00 PM
This is history: What is what? The whole home-computer scene was stolen from me and my friends and other guy's all around the world and from you. It happened in the middle of the 70's. It was people in black costumes who enter the homecomputerbuilders marked by that time and claimed they owned it. They where profiters and hungry and they stole everything from me and the other guy's and you. Some of the guy's ended up in black costumes too and some ended up in prisons and some are still like you and me.
We used to build the first homecomputers by our hands step by step and solder, everybody helped each other and nobody looked at the money. It was a funny time. Everything we did was "public domaines" and was give away. I wouldn't say I built the first wireless modem but near by. It was even in a computermagazine, It was a small little box to send and recive RTTY on a computer called Telmac 1800. The men in their black costumes only took and took and if we took anything back they call us thieves. But who was the thives?
I only ask who was the thives who turned the computer and game into softwareshops and computermarked? It wasn't you or neither me. It was the hungry blacksuited men who already had the money to buy everything we wanted. The men only wanted to lay hands on my money when I buy games and computers today. Who is "the choosen one" to put it all back like it was from the start back in the middle of the 70's?
Back in the 70's the computers was free and so was the softwares but somebody claimed that somebody owned that is what's it all about? I never invited the blacksuited men, did you? Today I understand, it was all wrong to give away something to people who never gave anything back. Here M$ has given something back and some say it is a crime to have it back?
Blacksuited men are just loosers and will never be anything else... they don't know anything about the spirit and never will.
The spirit can't be stolen.
P.S.
I hope I said it all!
Now, back to M$ Xbox 360 Kiosk Demo Disc
D.S
Post by: CrystalXBOX on January 06, 2006, 10:53:00 PM
QUOTE(Pluttiplutt @ Jan 7 2006, 04:02 AM)
I wouldn't say it's not a crime stealing software!
This is history: What is what? The whole home-computer scene was stolen from me and my friends and other guy's all around the world and from you. It happened in the middle of the 70's. It was people in black costumes who enter the homecomputerbuilders marked by that time and claimed they owned it. They where profiters and hungry and they stole everything from me and the other guy's and you. Some of the guy's ended up in black costumes too and some ended up in prisons and some are still like you and me.
We used to build the first homecomputers by our hands step by step and solder, everybody helped each other and nobody looked at the money. It was a funny time. Everything we did was "public domaines" and was give away. I wouldn't say I built the first wireless modem but near by. It was even in a computermagazine, It was a small little box to send and recive RTTY on a computer called Telmac 1800. The men in their black costumes only took and took and if we took anything back they call us thieves. But who was the thives?
I only ask who was the thives who turned the computer and game into softwareshops and computermarked? It wasn't you or neither me. It was the hungry blacksuited men who already had the money to buy everything we wanted. The men only wanted to lay hands on my money when I buy games and computers today. Who is "the choosen one" to put it all back like it was from the start back in the middle of the 70's?
Back in the 70's the computers was free and so was the softwares but somebody claimed that somebody owned that is what's it all about? I never invited the blacksuited men, did you? Today I understand, it was all wrong to give away something to people who never gave anything back. Here M$ has given something back and some say it is a crime to have it back?
Blacksuited men are just loosers and will never be anything else... they don't know anything about the spirit and never will.
The spirit can't be stolen.
P.S.
I hope I said it all!
Now, back to M$ Xbox 360 Kiosk Demo Disc
D.S
WHOA! You smoke entirely too much reefer!
I will say that I remember in the mid 80's takin gmy c128 to swap meets and libraries and such, sometimes with a detailed policeman. Everyone was taking each others 5 1/4 floppies or 3.5's if you was lucky enough to have a 1581 disk and would bring it to his computer setup and copy it and then return... image THE HORROR... the days when you could actually return software for your money back.. peace out!
Post by: jesuscakes on January 12, 2006, 10:10:00 PM
QUOTE(rezzin @ Jan 13 2006, 05:52 AM)
greetings
its been a long time since ive posted .
i think all software should be free
like the man said its the way it used to be .
after all bill gates stole software ideas from ibm . the on screen mouse with gui was stolen from zerox . the world is a bunch of thevin software geeks . but we like to call it file sharing . lol . napster started it all . they were the kingpins when it came to music swaping . no one cares about that any more . because its old news . people are alays intersted in new things to steal . its part of human nature. its up to the laws to say if its wrong or right . but technology is getting more high tech every second . so laws cant keep up . expesialy when theres old people writing them from previos time periods . i always said sharing is caring . i loved that line until i got my friends internet shut off for doing to much of it . lol . now were in the information age . and what gets shared is the information. isent it great . xbox sene rocks . so does 360 hacking . the level of sharing information on one piece of hardware (360) is unpresidented . i keep up with it all . as much as i can i meen .
i cant wait til it gets hacked . not for piracy reasons but because of the level of efort being put into this . and the short time frame that it will be acomplished . M$ those over pricing muthers . how can a kid with no money ever play such a game sys or evn buy games at that . al this does is lets posibilities open up and motivates inovation. dont player hate congardulate . mad props to the hacking of the Kiosk Demo Disc.
i just wish i hade a 360 sys to mess around with it . lol . but i still love my 120 hd original soft moded xbox . im reading the celestine prophicy . its a real awakiner . sorry for all the bable . just had to though my 2 cent in .
later . you sick and twisted intelgent individuals
rezz
ps . m$ . u gotta love em for this great challenge . truly great
over chargen mothers
Post by: Math1 on January 13, 2006, 10:11:00 AM
Post by: rezzin on January 13, 2006, 06:01:00 PM
lets do a poll
how many people think they really have something relitively important to to give to the 360 hacking comunity on a scale of 1 - 10 ?
be honest .
post your reply.
if you are a 5 or more then lets start another forum to put the best of the best thoughts together.
or not .
peace out
Post by: Oddish on January 16, 2006, 08:49:00 AM
QUOTE(jesuscakes @ Jan 13 2006, 06:17 AM)
You know what isn't great? Your spelling and general grammer. :|
Post by: irfan on January 16, 2006, 10:49:00 PM
Post by: Keshire on January 16, 2006, 10:22:00 PM
QUOTE(irfan @ Jan 16 2006, 11:20 PM)
so why is there a harsher penalty for stealing online than form a store? u can try to walk out of a store with a game and chances are u are not gonna pay 7000 dollars or face jail time. ur stealing the same thing arent u?
Estimate the amount of people that you share with. You've stolen that many copies.
Post by: frogsmasha on January 18, 2006, 12:49:00 PM
QUOTE(Oddish @ Jan 16 2006, 04:56 PM)
If you're gonna complain about people's spelling and grammar, you should make sure your own post is clear of mistakes.
You must be like TEH RETARDED. He is talking about his own grammar mistakez :/
Post by: rooter75 on January 18, 2006, 03:30:00 PM
QUOTE(frogsmasha @ Jan 18 2006, 12:20 PM)
You must be like TEH RETARDED. He is talking about his own grammar mistakez :/
frogsmasha, actually jesuscakes was complaining about rezzin's spelling and grammar and oddish pointed out that jesuscakes had incorrectly spelled grammar with an "er" in his complaint. I hope this clears it up for you. Anyways no reason to call someone "retarded" just because you didn't understand the conversation. Can't we all just be friends?
This thread is way off topic but I just wanted to give Bunnie props for his work on the first go round.
Post by: corpsejockey on January 30, 2006, 08:08:00 PM
Edit (grammar) - me no liky mal-grammer
This post has been edited by corpsejockey: Jan 31 2006, 04:11 AM
Post by: vintage_guitar on February 02, 2006, 12:44:00 AM
This post has been edited by vintage_guitar: Feb 2 2006, 08:51 AM
Post by: Heet on February 02, 2006, 01:37:00 AM
And ya i thought it was funny that right after bunnie mentioned it, they included it in the update. Neat isn't it. Probably pure coincidence.
This post has been edited by Heet: Feb 2 2006, 09:40 AM
Post by: vintage_guitar on February 02, 2006, 05:26:00 PM
Post by: corpsejockey on February 04, 2006, 05:13:00 PM
check this out. Home-brew flash apps are possible pre latest 360 update.
Post by: vintage_guitar on February 05, 2006, 02:49:00 PM
This post has been edited by vintage_guitar: Feb 5 2006, 10:49 PM
Post by: corpsejockey on February 06, 2006, 12:17:00 AM