Post by: regulater7 on December 15, 2005, 02:34:00 AM
Post by: bowser22 on December 15, 2005, 05:47:00 AM
Post by: ViNCe_V on December 15, 2005, 06:16:00 AM
Post by: scotty2hotty1124 on December 15, 2005, 07:55:00 AM
Post by: deadparrot on December 15, 2005, 09:19:00 AM
Post by: jameswalter on December 15, 2005, 10:47:00 AM
Post by: Phantaxus on December 15, 2005, 12:28:00 PM
http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/4530702.stm
Quote
The crackers have not managed to get the data off game disks, instead they have dug out the version of the game that the Xbox 360 creates when gamers start playing.
Endquote
Post by: TheSpecialist on December 15, 2005, 01:15:00 PM
QUOTE(Phantaxus @ Dec 15 2005, 08:35 PM) 
BBC News Story
http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/4530702.stm
Quote
The crackers have not managed to get the data off game disks, instead they have dug out the version of the game that the Xbox 360 creates when gamers start playing.
Endquote
'version of the game that the xbox creates when gamers start playing' ? WTF is that ? Hehe. No, I'm sure they extracted the iso's like i just wrote above. These BBC dudes obviously don't know what they're talking about.
Post by: heinrich on December 15, 2005, 02:15:00 PM
Post by: Monoxboogie on December 15, 2005, 11:38:00 PM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 16 2005, 06:54 AM)
First of all I want to say Hi to all of you.
Now I think what PI did is to use the xbox 360 as the reader and made an ISO out of it, same goes to Gamecube(.GCM) anyway just a thought
I think you're wrong. If by "think", I mean "know", and by "wrong", I mean "blatantly ignorant, and guessing based on an absolute lack of research or knowledge."
Search, and read, and you might actually learn something. Or keep on posting stupid questions. Whatever.
Post by: Monoxboogie on December 16, 2005, 10:22:00 AM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 16 2005, 04:54 PM)
Well Gamecube was the most secured of all the 3 consoles and thats a fact, I'm assuming that maybe this team have managed to make the same method work on the 360. There's just many hackers interested in cracking the 360. So you can expect a lot more talented hackers trying to crack this thing. I know how Xbox 1 games gets copied and I'm aware that you can't make an iso of it right away from the box but what you get is files instead. But on the 360 I think this team have managed to do it. Or maybe what they did is the same thing as the first xbox making an ISO using FTP with files then converted it to an ISO(.360) but I doubt it. Also if you look inside the NFO they gave a hint about the "Gamecube". You can "think" what you like, but it's really just all speculation. Whether its a new method or the same method as the first Xbox, No one really knows except PI.
Gamecube was most secure because they used a never before seen format that spins backwards, and was incredibly high density for its size. EVEN if we could have made our drives spin backwards, we couldn't have gotten the lasers to read the data on it (I don't believe), due to the way the data was written.
I believe Dreamcast and their GD-ROM was the same...I don't believe games could be ripped until they got the Dreamcast under their control with a boot disc. DC's flaw was that even though it used GD-ROM, it *could* execute files off of a CD-ROM.
Anyway, you know how Xbox 1 games are copied *now*. There was a time before dvd2xbox. In this time, through voodoo which you'll quite obviously fail to understand, a standard PC-DVD-ROM drive was put into such a mode that ATAPI commands could be sent to it to cause it to seek passed what it believed was the end of the DVD inserted. Then, it was as simple as using some sort of utility to do a raw dump of the DVD, with a program such as dd, and boom....Xbox ISO. Team Xcuter hinted that the Xbox 360 ripper looks like the tool used for ProjectX a few years ago. It does the same thing as the original Xbox 1 tool...the one that existed before dvd2xbox. Well, almost the same thing. They had to change an offset. This is the reason that all the Xbox 360 ISO's are all the same size. The nature of the raw dumping utility dumps "empty" areas of the DVD just as readily as it dumps "data" portions. This also explains why, once compressed, they are different sizes. Because each ISO has a different amount of data, they have a different amount of "empty space." The nature of the empty space is such that it would more than likely be a long string of 0's. Long strings of similar data compress rather well (if you don't believe it, open notepad, copy and paste a few million "A's", and save it. Check the file size. Compress it. Check the file size. Wow.).
If you have *factual data* to point to a method other than the one I just outlined, please feel free to post. However, if you have more speculation based on no real knowledge, and your obviously weak understanding of how computers/consoles work, please refrain from posting it. Or post it. And I can continue to make posts about how wrong you are.
Post by: crosseye on December 16, 2005, 12:16:00 PM
The point is NOT which way "seems" like it might work best. Neither is it that another way could "possibly" work. The point is simply, it is done a certain way so fookin deal with it jebus.
EDIT: think and know are 2 hugely different things. I think HD-DVD could beat blueray. I know they both use a laser to read the data.
Post by: InterestedHacker on December 16, 2005, 12:58:00 PM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 16 2005, 09:34 PM)
That's what I was trying to say, there is a certain way to dump 360 games, but do we know how? the answer to that is no, that's why I was just merely speculating. I never said my way of method is right, but telling me I'm wrong when someone really has no idea of how PI really dump their 360 ISOs is full of crap.
He's not talking crap! The 360 iso are produced by sending special ATAPI commands to the standard PC DVD drive, that allow the drive to read past where your DVD drive thinks the end of the disc is. The second stage is to dump the whole disc, byte for byte, which IS why the images are all indentical in size. The reasons the dump tools and details on the ATAPI commands have never been leaked is three fold. Firstly, they didn't want people knowing how they did it (for whatever reason? control of releases, protection from MS modifying their protection, who knows?), the second reason is the fact the XBOX got completely open up and there was no reason for it, and finally there is no easy way they could just package the process up into a nice friendly noob (remove one of the o's if applicable) compatible exe that would just rip ISO on anyones PC. There are a few issues, namely the ATAPI commands themselves that make this rip only function on some (I have been told 1 drive, by someone close to the source) drives. There was speculation, and suggestion from some senior people on here (who know wtf they are talking about) that you have to modify your firmware, that may or may not be the case, and may be another reason why there is no noob exe.
Does that clear it up?
EDIT: Oh, and considering the XBOX 360 is signed, and no one can get past hypervisor yet, and the fact a normal PC can't support the SATA XBOX drive, and there's no FTP software etc. etc. How do you think they would use the 360 drive?
Post by: Enox on December 16, 2005, 01:22:00 PM
QUOTE(InterestedHacker @ Dec 16 2005, 12:05 PM)
He's not talking crap! The 360 iso are produced by sending special ATAPI commands to the standard PC DVD drive, that allow the drive to read past where your DVD drive thinks the end of the disc is. The second stage is to dump the whole disc, byte for byte, which IS why the images are all indentical in size. The reasons the dump tools and details on the ATAPI commands have never been leaked is three fold. Firstly, they didn't want people knowing how they did it (for whatever reason? control of releases, protection from MS modifying their protection, who knows?), the second reason is the fact the XBOX got completely open up and there was no reason for it, and finally there is no easy way they could just package the process up into a nice friendly noob (remove one of the o's if applicable) compatible exe that would just rip ISO on anyones PC. There are a few issues, namely the ATAPI commands themselves that make this rip only function on some (I have been told 1 drive, by someone close to the source) drives. There was speculation, and suggestion from some senior people on here (who know wtf they are talking about) that you have to modify your firmware, that may or may not be the case, and may be another reason why there is no noob exe.
Does that clear it up?
EDIT: Oh, and considering the XBOX 360 is signed, and no one can get past hypervisor yet, and the fact a normal PC can't support the SATA XBOX drive, and there's no FTP software etc. etc. How do you think they would use the 360 drive?
Post by: tachy0n on December 16, 2005, 01:57:00 PM
Post by: Enox on December 16, 2005, 02:06:00 PM
Post by: Monoxboogie on December 16, 2005, 02:20:00 PM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 16 2005, 07:54 PM)
LOL the Gamecube discs never spins backwards you dumb nuts, the gamecube had a barcode protection as well as the offset of the written data is slightly changed which is the reason why it had a very secured protection, it doesn't spin backwards. Do some research at a gamecube scene site because that's just a noob statement.
Now lets get back to the method, You think that those Xbox 360 ISOs were made using a modified PC-DVD-ROM drive? is that what your point is? if yes, then it's very possible, but I think my method which is using the Xbox 360 itself to make an ISO is much more simpler and much more possible than using a firmware on a PC Drive. This method will not only be possible for the release groups, but the public can take advantage of this as well. The Xbox 360 ISO "having all the same size" has nothing to do with using a PC-DVD Drive, you can get an exact same size of ISO with the right program, if you've been on the Gamecube scene you will know that it's very possible ripping a Full ISO from a Disc using the Gamecube console.
I concede the point about the gamecube games not spinning backwards. I swore I read that one of the features the the chip I have reverses the spin making it possible to use regular discs, but I was wrong.
However, your method is still wrong. How exactly do you propose to use a Xbox 360 to rip the games? How are you going to take control over the device to make it spit the data to a format that can later be analyzed? We lack a way to take control of the processor as of yet, and as such, have no way to make it do our bidding.
The Xbox 360 ISO's being the same size has nothing to do with being a PC-DVD-ROM, that's correct. However, the nature of the ripping process (that is, a bit-for-bit copy of the data on the disk) is what creates the same size. This is why current unextracted Xbox 1 ISOs are not the same size...we no longer copy the entire bit-for-bit representation of the disk. We only pull the files off of the filesystem, and do with them what we will.
And it can't be FTP'd. If it was, it'd be cracked. And if the 360 was cracked, we'd see chips. No group would wait for a release of chips; the sooner they release it, the higher the chance for money. Just accept it.
Post by: crosseye on December 16, 2005, 02:59:00 PM
The security in the 360 is VASTLY different than what was in the xbox. I hope you can understand this. It's very simple, or so I thought. Once again, I am not trying to take away creativity from people. I hope you all try everything. I AM SIMPLY TELLING YOU HOW IT IS DONE. You ARE wrong when it comes to this instance. Hypothetical ideas about how someone could "possibly" dump a game are not the point here. There is a way they are dumping them and it has NOTHING to do with what you keep trying to say. Please just read and comprehend this post.
Post by: Monoxboogie on December 16, 2005, 03:56:00 PM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 16 2005, 11:05 PM)
Making ISOs via FTP would only be partial and not fully cracked. Lets look at the gamecube for a sec. as an example, When gamecube ISOs was first released to the public, there was no way of using it. So you might ask how the hell did Echelon made an ISO image of a Gamecube game? the answer to that is that they have streamed it via network(similar to FTP), but can you play the gamecube ISOs? no, ppl had to wait a few months until they've finally been able to use these ISO's.
Like I said FTPing an ISO won't mean that the system is fully cracked and that you can play the ISO right away. Making an ISO is just the first step and has nothing to do with the console being fully cracked.
Incorrect. Once Echoman had FTP working, he was running non-Nintendo code on the Gamecube. A console is cracked once you can run non-official code on it. Therefore, it was fully cracked. However, if you remember the Xbox scene, the first dash hacks and font exploits were used for installing Linux and running legal software. At that point, it was fully cracked. However, it took some engineering of the exploits before people figured out how to run commercial games on it.
Typically, those *most* interested in the hacks (and most capable), and the forerunners of the exploitation of machines are those who have more legitimate purposes than those who want to steal games.
I really don't care if Xbox 360 games run on a cracked console or not. Just give me those 3 glorious PPC cores for Linux, and leave me alone. Of course, I'm not a forerunner in 360 development; I don't yet own a console. If I get one, I'll gladly take my hand at it.
Your idea is good...for once we get the framework. In fact, that's probably how it will be done. But that's not how it was done.
Post by: Enox on December 16, 2005, 04:11:00 PM
QUOTE(Monoxboogie @ Dec 16 2005, 03:03 PM)
Incorrect. Once Echoman had FTP working, he was running non-Nintendo code on the Gamecube. A console is cracked once you can run non-official code on it. Therefore, it was fully cracked. However, if you remember the Xbox scene, the first dash hacks and font exploits were used for installing Linux and running legal software. At that point, it was fully cracked. However, it took some engineering of the exploits before people figured out how to run commercial games on it.
Typically, those *most* interested in the hacks (and most capable), and the forerunners of the exploitation of machines are those who have more legitimate purposes than those who want to steal games.
I really don't care if Xbox 360 games run on a cracked console or not. Just give me those 3 glorious PPC cores for Linux, and leave me alone. Of course, I'm not a forerunner in 360 development; I don't yet own a console. If I get one, I'll gladly take my hand at it.
Your idea is good...for once we get the framework. In fact, that's probably how it will be done. But that's not how it was done.
I fully agree with your last line as it shows some optimistic.
Post by: crosseye on December 16, 2005, 05:58:00 PM
Just so I understand you, you are questioning their method right? You are still in doubt as to how it is done?
If either of those is a question still in your head, you have totally missed EVERYTHING I have been telling you. You're wondering how they got dumps 3 weeks in? THE SAME WAY THEY DID WITH XBOX! Did you understand that? If you're still thinking the way many did it with the first xbox games involved an xbox at all, you are totally lost and I can not get it through to you. What YOU are currently talking about to dump 360 games is all SPECULATION. What I am telling you is FACT.
EDIT: I just want to make this clear for the last time. FTP WAS NOT USED! I don't care if it's a future possibility, I'm talking about what was used.
Post by: Monoxboogie on December 16, 2005, 09:48:00 PM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 17 2005, 12:18 AM)
Yes it's cracked when u can run FTP on it but that won't mean you can run the games already and I think you finally understand that. It would take time for chips to come out and exploits to run these commercial ISO games, I think we are on the same page here at least on this matter.
I fully agree with your last line as it shows some optimistic.
You fail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
A console is not cracked "when you can run FTP on it." The running of the FTP was done in such a way that the processor was taken over, and it was instructed to do something the device wasn't programmed to do. In effect, *ANY* code could be run. The running of the FTP could not have been done without some sort of soft or hard mod. If there was some sort of native FTP functionality, then it wouldn't have been a big deal for him to rip an ISO. *IF* the processor can be made to open an FTP connection, it can be made to load anything else in that wonderful DOL format, including games. However, as I tryed to imply before, there's a difference between proof of concept and theft. Echoman was the proof of concept. The people who then distributed the games, and created the chips to play pirate games were involved in theft.
Now, I don't care at all about gamecube anymore. The fact that I knew *anything* about Gamecube was pot luck. Your knowledge of gamecube doesn't mean anything here. You could be echoman himself, and you wouldn't be worth anything. You've been posting on these boards for 2 days, and you've picked fights who have been posting for over a year. What a wonderful way to gain acceptance and appreciation in the community. I believe I've covered this from every angle possible. I have nothing more to say about this topic; at least in this thread.
And my last line isn't really optimistic. It's true. Once we can run our own code on the device, we can do what we please. Some will opt to run Linux. Some will opt to use the Xbox 360 as a low cost (compared to all other currently existing devices that cost the same) multi-core, non-x86 development platform to enhance their coding. And others will opt to use them for devious purposes, and steal software. So, using the console to rip the games isn't really an optimistic statement. It's actually one of the worst outcomes. But say whatever helps you sleep at night.
Post by: Monoxboogie on December 16, 2005, 10:26:00 PM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 17 2005, 06:14 AM)
obviously you guys all disagree with the FTP method, but let me tell you that it is possible in any console if that would be the only way and it has proven to work for Dreamcast, Gamecube, and the first Xbox. But right now there has been a new method of getting your own ISOs made and it came from a french website, it doesn't have anything to do with ATAPI Commands just to let you kno, but it does require a DVD Drive.
Yes it's possible. But only when you can run homebrew code. We can't, so it's currently impossible.
And I assure you that any method (funny how you mention a method, but don't provide any evidence...YET AGAIN) involving a DVD Drive involve ATAPI commands.
According to google's define: functionality, ATAPI is....Advanced Technology Attachment (ATA) Packet Interface. An interface between a computer and its internal peripherals such as DVD-ROM drives. ATAPI provides the command set for controlling devices connected via an IDE interface. ATAPI is part of the Enhanced IDE (E-IDE) interface, also known as ATA-2. ATAPI was extended for use in DVD-ROM drives by the SFF 8090 specification.
Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it's not happening. By virtue of it using the DVD drive (and assuming it exists), it utilized ATAPI commands.
Post by: Monoxboogie on December 16, 2005, 10:56:00 PM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 17 2005, 06:53 AM)
You can't really say something impossible when you would also say its possible. That just won't make sense.
And about the ATAPI, I should've said "modified ATAPI commands". So I guess what I was really trying to say is that theres really no need for modified ATAPI commands to make the dvd drive read the disc for this method.
It is currently impossible to run FTP on a 360. There is CURRENTLY no known way to do so, which makes it impossible. With knowledge we gain, it may eventually become possible. But currently, its not. If I am wrong, then do it. If you are unable to do so, I kindly invite you to partake in a warm, tall glass of STFU. I hear it tastes wonderful with Eggnog.
There's also no such thing as modified ATAPI commands. If we were to modify them, then the drive wouldn't understand them. I would like to once again point out that though you reference a "new" method, you provide no proof, and no verification. Have you tried this "new DVD Drive method?" Did it work? Chances are the answer to both is "no." Until you do so, I kindly ask that you once again indulge in that glass off STFU...mmmm....tasty.
Post by: jameswalter on December 16, 2005, 11:35:00 PM
Its for real...whether you believe it or not.
Post by: InterestedHacker on December 17, 2005, 12:17:00 AM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 16 2005, 11:13 PM)
You don't really have to make another username just to say that again. That's not proof, what a proof is, is when PI exactly tells you or the public how they did it. Speculation is never a proof. Let me ask you this, who told you that it can't be FTPed exactly? oh please tell me that PI did tell you that, cause if not, then that's a useless statement.
Who are you accusing of using two logins on here?? Just out of interest?
Post by: InterestedHacker on December 17, 2005, 12:35:00 AM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 17 2005, 08:25 AM)
no thanks, I don't need a supplier of STFUs, I dont like to talk a lot like you and talk with no sense, impossible and then suddenly saying it's possible, that some shitty. Well you only modify it the first time by debugging it, the disc should be read and the atapi commands is back on normal. But ATAPI's is not really the point here, you should know by now that what we are talking about here are methods of how PI dumps games. ATAPI is only a minor part of the subject. And no I haven't tried this new method but others already confirmed it working, I never said it works because I would personally have to try it before believing something. I think you guys need some STFUs too cause I keep telling about FTP and then you guys just bounce back that it can't work and we just bounce back the same thing everytime. So I'm pretty sure you guys would need some STFUs and order a combo for all of you.
EDIT: I think he misread your post! I had to read it twice! As for FTP, on ANY other previous console, I would agree with your suggestion of running a rogue FTP application, that can read the XBOX FS. With the 360, it's going to take some time to get past hypervisor, if it's possible at all, and my guess is that we will be here 18 months from now still discussing hypervisor (I would LOVE to be wrong).
I would say that it's possible that someone ripped games via FTP, but the odds are very very high, like 1 in 1,000,000,000, due to hypervisor. If they get control of the CPU, then the whole thing is blown out of the water and they can pretty much run anything on it.
Post by: Arakon on December 17, 2005, 04:37:00 AM
QUOTE
if you remember the Xbox scene, the first dash hacks and font exploits were used for installing Linux and running legal software. At that point, it was fully cracked. However, it took some engineering of the exploits before people figured out how to run commercial games on it.
uhh... the dash hacks and font exploits happened AGES after modchips.. the xbox had been "fully cracked" long before those.
as for Pi, they didn't use ftp, or anything at all on the 360. they used a certain PC drive and a certain app with a tiny modification. the 360 is still completely "uncracked", they didn't even have to touch one.
Post by: crosseye on December 17, 2005, 11:09:00 AM
QUOTE(Arakon @ Dec 17 2005, 05:44 AM)
uhh... the dash hacks and font exploits happened AGES after modchips.. the xbox had been "fully cracked" long before those.
as for Pi, they didn't use ftp, or anything at all on the 360. they used a certain PC drive and a certain app with a tiny modification. the 360 is still completely "uncracked", they didn't even have to touch one.
This is what I have been telling him over and over. Enox, there was ONE way PI dumped the games. Your SPECULATION is POINTLESS. There is as a matter of FACT ONE way they dumped the games. Is this getting through? Who gives a flying fook if in the FUTURE, FTP could be used. We are talking about the PRESENT, in which a 360 was not even needed. Your efforts to go back and point out how FTP was used on the original xbox also show a total lack of knowledge AND any ability to comprehend. Just like 360, they did NOT need an xbox to dump games. They did NOT FTP. Is this finally getting through?
You keep constantly going back to pure SPECULATION on what you "think" they could have done. Who gives a shit what you "think". We are telling you this IS how it was done. Seriously, I've never met someone so hard headed and unable to deal with the truth.
Post by: Monoxboogie on December 17, 2005, 12:21:00 PM
QUOTE(Enox @ Dec 17 2005, 07:25 AM)
no thanks, I don't need a supplier of STFUs, I dont like to talk a lot like you and talk with no sense, impossible and then suddenly saying it's possible, that some shitty. Well you only modify it the first time by debugging it, the disc should be read and the atapi commands is back on normal. But ATAPI's is not really the point here, you should know by now that what we are talking about here are methods of how PI dumps games. ATAPI is only a minor part of the subject. And no I haven't tried this new method but others already confirmed it working, I never said it works because I would personally have to try it before believing something. I think you guys need some STFUs too cause I keep telling about FTP and then you guys just bounce back that it can't work and we just bounce back the same thing everytime. So I'm pretty sure you guys would need some STFUs and order a combo for all of you.
I assure you I speak with a great deal of sense. Many of the other intelligent people around seem to understand what I'm saying.
And no matter how many times you say it, it's still going to be a resounding "no; that's not how they did it." PI did not use FTP to create the dumps. The only time FTP could have come into place would be after the creation of the dump, to transfer from the machine (note: PC; not Xbox 360) to the machine hosting the dumps to the rest of the internet. End of story.
And while there is a new method to create dumps, this *STILL* doesn't substantiate your claim of FTP. In fact, the French web site's method goes further to disprove your earlier conjecture.
I hope they come out with modchips soon. And I hope you fry your box installing it. Or that you pay entirely too much in order to get it installed. Either way, I hope a huge financial burden is placed on you in getting your box chipped.
Post by: PCBUILDERCHRIS on December 17, 2005, 01:05:00 PM
get hime >|
Post by: kday on December 17, 2005, 02:19:00 PM
Post by: Monoxboogie on December 17, 2005, 03:37:00 PM
QUOTE(PCBUILDERCHRIS @ Dec 17 2005, 09:12 PM)
ban this new user monoxboogie with 31 posts he sucks and he probably has a ps3 reserved
get hime >|
"New user?" You're my senior by 1 month. I'm sorry I don't spend my time posting in the newbie forums to artificially inflate my post count. It must be tough answering the same question over and over again from people who refuse to read the facts....wait a second...that's what we're dealing with right now! Applications don't write themselves. (Not Xbox apps, I make no claim to do that. I do, however, write programs for other things. As well as attending college, and taking care of my young one.) I frequent these forums quite a bit, though typically don't have time to contribute to the general chaotic nature of them. However, with classes out for the winter, and all the recent excitement of the 360, I've decided to post where I could.
Anyway, I agree that this thread has quickly degraded to crap. It's OT now. So, if we're not going to steer it back, please just let it die. There's really no point in steering it back. We've answered the original question...several times. Yes somebody knows how PI dumps games. Yes, we told you how. Some refused to believe it. Doesn't matter. Now, there's a method that people can do on conventional DVD drives without modified firmware. That pretty much sums up everything, I see no reason in keeping this topic going...
Post by: PCBUILDERCHRIS on December 17, 2005, 05:21:00 PM
Post by: FSUNolez336 on December 17, 2005, 10:41:00 PM
QUOTE(PCBUILDERCHRIS @ Dec 17 2005, 07:28 PM)
im sorry for what i said monxboogie but dang youve been here since oh for and made just that many post your either a reader or have more than one account
He allready explained it. I'll post it for you again so you can read it.
QUOTE(Monoxboogie @ Dec 17 2005, 05:44 PM)
I'm sorry I don't spend my time posting in the newbie forums to artificially inflate my post count... ...I do, however, write programs for other things. As well as attending college, and taking care of my young one. I frequent these forums quite a bit, though typically don't have time to contribute to the general chaotic nature of them.
Post by: heinrich on December 18, 2005, 09:38:00 AM