Post by: XanTium on December 04, 2005, 07:00:00 PM
Xbox 360 Experiments: swap DVD/TSOP, 360 without EEPROM?, ...-- Posted by XanTium on December 4 21:00 EST
CrackerJack (cjack) of darkmoon.org bought a core and premium Xbox 360 system and sent us an email with some info. He also posted several comments in this thread on our forums.
He noticed that while his core system has the EEPROM chip near the CPU, his premium Xbox 360 does not have this chip. However it does not seem to be core/premium related as my (XanTium's) premium Xbox 360 has this eeprom chip. On the images below you can see cjack's premium 360 without eeprom on the left and mine with eeprom on the right.
(IMG:http://pictures.xbox-scene.com/xbox360/motherboard/x360Pro_noeeprom_s.jpg) (IMG:http://pictures.xbox-scene.com/xbox360/motherboard/eeprom_s.jpg)
Some other interesting stuff he tried:
* He desoldered the TSOP of his 2 consoles and inverted them. The TSOP of Premium soldered in the Core console did not work. The 'ring of light' blinked red ... black screen. He resoldered both TSOPs in correct consoles ... and everything worked fine again.
* He also desoldered the eeprom from his Core Xbox 360 and, a bit unexpectedly, the console worked fine without the eeprom chip! Dashboard version and Kernel versions (backup version too) were the same then when there was the eeprom. Everything worked fine, games boot without problems, Xbox LIVE worked too...
* He checked the DVD player labels: they are almost the same but 2 different ROM versions:
-Core: DVD PLAYER model: GDR3120L (X800475-008), Rom version: 0046DH
-Premium: DVD PLAYER model: GDR3120L (X800475-009), Rom version: 0047DJ
He tried to swap the DVD players too and ... the games wouldn't boot. The Xbox 360 gave the same error screen then when you put the DVD in a PC DVD-ROM: "To play this disc, put it in an xbox 360 console". CrackerJack thinks that the Xbox 360 might have some kind of signature of the DVD player or that the ROM versions are not compatible.
More pictures of his adventures with the Xbox 360 are available here[darkmoon.org].
You can see his posts on our forums here[forums.xbox-scene.com].
Post by: luther349 on December 04, 2005, 07:07:00 PM
Post by: Satan00 on December 04, 2005, 07:23:00 PM
you could definately expect to see something like that from MS lol
Post by: aepuppetmaster on December 04, 2005, 07:35:00 PM
Post by: downlowfunk on December 04, 2005, 07:48:00 PM
).Peace
- D
This post has been edited by downlowfunk: Dec 5 2005, 03:51 AM
Post by: Stripes on December 04, 2005, 09:02:00 PM
QUOTE
The Xbox 360 gave the same error screen then when you put the DVD in a PC DVD-ROM: "To play this disc, put it in an xbox 360 console".
just wanted to point out.. i think u were trying to type " when you put the dvd in an XBOX dvd-rom"
This post has been edited by Stripes: Dec 5 2005, 05:03 AM
Post by: ukanndewit on December 04, 2005, 08:58:00 PM
Post by: PCBUILDERCHRIS on December 04, 2005, 09:06:00 PM
this is so cool how it boots up without the eeprom i have to tell my fellow 360 geeks who have opened there box imma see if well follow and mimic cjack everystep for fun well have some sort of mod in no time
Post by: lordvader129 on December 04, 2005, 09:07:00 PM
QUOTE(Stripes @ Dec 4 2005, 10:02 PM) 
just wanted to point out.. i think u were trying to type " when you put the dvd in an XBOX dvd-rom"
its the same error either way, also with a set top dvd-player
QUOTE
thats just strange. if the tosp in unused why is it there.
it wasnt the TSOP thats apparently unused, its an eeprom near the cpu, it could be a vestigial component from development days, or perhaps it does have a use and we just havent noticied it yet
Post by: Stripes on December 04, 2005, 09:15:00 PM
QUOTE(lordvader129 @ Dec 4 2005, 10:14 PM)
its the same error either way, also with a set top dvd-player
it wasnt the TSOP thats apparently unused, its an eeprom near the cpu, it could be a vestigial component from development days, or perhaps it does have a use and we just havent noticied it yet
sorry lord vada
Post by: PCBUILDERCHRIS on December 04, 2005, 09:18:00 PM
2 they said better security so itll be somewhere we least expect it
un-ha found it its in the psu cords box just kidding but watch out for this stuff
Post by: rocarmy4life on December 04, 2005, 09:29:00 PM
QUOTE(XanTium @ Dec 5 2005, 03:07 AM) 
He tried to swap the DVD players too and ... the games wouldn't boot. The Xbox 360 gave the same error screen then when you put the DVD in a PC DVD-ROM: "To play this disc, put it in an xbox 360 console". CrackerJack thinks that the Xbox 360 might have some kind of signature of the DVD player or that the ROM versions are not compatible.
QUOTE(Chris Satchell @ Sep 9 2005, 03:07 AM)
The 360 will have security built directly into the hardware, said Xbox engineer Chris Satchell.
this is probably one of the "hardware" security checkpoints...
Post by: Alkane on December 04, 2005, 09:22:00 PM
QUOTE(luther349 @ Dec 4 2005, 09:14 PM)
thats just strange. if the tosp in unused why is it there.
I think you're a little confused. Its the EEPROM that appears unused. The TSOP has been proven to NOT be interchangeable between Xbox 360s. If you were to do this between two like Xbox 1s, two v1.0s for instance, it should work. On the original Xbox, the EEPROM was used to store settings and specifics about that particular Xbox. On the Xbox 360...?
On Xbox 1 the TSOP was used to store the BIOS. On the Xbox 360 it appears to hold the dashboard and possiblely other things. The contents appear to be encrypted using a key unique to each Xbox 360.
QUOTE(Satan00 @ Dec 4 2005, 09:30 PM)
sounds like windows xp device signature activation thing all over again
you could definately expect to see something like that from MS lol
QUOTE(downlowfunk @ Dec 4 2005, 09:48 PM)
Im no Expert, but would say maybe the EEPROM is the red herring people have been speculating about. as for swapping the drives and getting errors, YUCK!!!!!. Its going to suck in the future when youve got a stack of dead 360s from the dump and your trying to build one good one. Kinda like my stack of dead Xbox 1's ( Bad flashes, poor soldering, lifted traces (dont ask
).Peace
- D
This could very well be some sort of marrying. This may have something to do with their approved hardware peripherals system, marrying, or could be more like what is seen on PS2 consoles. PS2s require that the laser replacing the original be the same model unless you reprogram an EEPROM on the PS2. PS2 service techs have access to a utility for this. Until recently it wasn't available to the modding community, lucky for us replacement parts are fairly easy to find. Recently the modding community was able to make a similar program as used by their service techs to enable use of different lasers.
As for the EEPROM appearing to do nothing, makes me remember some MS guy saying, "what works for some people may not work for everyone else" (not an exact quote, but close). May end up being part of a bigger picture.
QUOTE(Stripes @ Dec 4 2005, 11:02 PM)
just wanted to point out.. i think u were trying to type " when you put the dvd in an XBOX dvd-rom"
Let me elaborate a little. When you put an Xbox 360 game into a PC DVD-ROM, or set-top, you are going to get that message. He's saying that he receives that message when he puts the disc into the swapped Xbox 360 DVD drive. The drive being from a second Xbox 360 being used in the first. That particular Xbox 360 may not have support for that ROM version programmed into it, thus access to the special firmware features cannot be accessed.
Hope this clears some stuff up for the little less tech savvy.
-alkane
Post by: lilbplaya3406 on December 04, 2005, 09:23:00 PM
Post by: jeks on December 04, 2005, 09:50:00 PM
Post by: eDeus on December 04, 2005, 10:34:00 PM
MS arent stupid - plus why would they waste money for such unused hardware.
Possibly an earlier design, one that even was used for the dev kits?!
I suspect newer designs/production runs will not have the chip onboard.
Post by: adeon on December 04, 2005, 11:58:00 PM
just how the XBOXes have different bios versions on them.. a 1.3 bios wouldent work for a 1.0 xbox, same thing here maybe?, i dont remember if 1.0 bios would work on a 1.1 xbox, but from what I remember it dosent..
as for the epprom being ther... who knows.. let time tell
and the DVD signing sucks!.. I can imagine the poor mobos being ther with no use
just like the early days for the XBOX, the 3rd party companies that would repair the XBOXes didnt know what was the fuzz on the HDs, hopefully theyll be a easy lock/unlock way like on the original XBOXes
Post by: Arnold_Schwarzenegger on December 05, 2005, 04:22:00 AM
Post by: Arnold_Schwarzenegger on December 05, 2005, 04:37:00 AM
Post by: 1nick9 on December 05, 2005, 04:48:00 AM
guess only time will tell.
as for the tsop swap not working, my guess is each console has its own key for tsop and dash is signed jsut like live content is now to each xboxes eeprom key (probly not eeprom key but key on a chipset on consoles), so it will make it harder to decrypt for hackers and wat not.
jsut my 2cent
cheers
Post by: matcapir on December 05, 2005, 05:19:00 AM
http://www.free60.org/wiki/Harddrive
Post by: iLLNESS on December 05, 2005, 05:48:00 AM
im guessing the eeprom is there because the dvdrom needs it..
if he could get access to 2 360s without eeproms, im guessing the dvdroms will be swappable
Post by: posiedon on December 05, 2005, 06:21:00 AM
and seen photos of 4 more diffrent versions online
it may be like the original 1.6 motherboards in the first xbox
you need a diffrent method to install a chip in the 2 diffrent versions
this may be what is going on here, ms trying to stop a universal modchip setup
so each diffrent version needs a diffrent wire/placement setup
but this is just a theory though
Post by: MSi on December 05, 2005, 07:03:00 AM
QUOTE(iLLNESS @ Dec 5 2005, 12:55 PM) 
too bad when he was swapping the eeprom he didnt try swapping the drives at that time too
im guessing the eeprom is there because the dvdrom needs it..
if he could get access to 2 360s without eeproms, im guessing the dvdroms will be swappable
Well, he took the eeprom out on the core version, and it all still worked perfectly as far as he could see; if the 360 needed the eeprom for the dvd drive to work, games wouldn't play, so I don't like that theory.
Also, if the eeprom was for different cpu versions, taking it out would surely make this different cpu version work incorrectly.
And, if M$ put it there to confuse us, why would they leave it out on some, and put it in on others? Surely they would realise that this would make us think that maybe it isn't needed, therefore wasting the tenth of a cent it costs them to put it on the board.
If I had a 360, i'd be trying some of my theories out, but due to both the shortage, and the bugs ( 360s scratch CD's, and there's not even a way to back them up yet?
) I'm going to wait for a later release to come out. For mow, I'll just try to help by posting my speculations...
Post by: Smidley on December 05, 2005, 07:38:00 AM
Post by: modthebox.tk on December 05, 2005, 09:44:00 AM
QUOTE(posiedon @ Dec 5 2005, 03:21 PM)
i have personally have seen 2 diffrent motherboards in 2 premium systems
and seen photos of 4 more diffrent versions online
it may be like the original 1.6 motherboards in the first xbox
you need a diffrent method to install a chip in the 2 diffrent versions
this may be what is going on here, ms trying to stop a universal modchip setup
so each diffrent version needs a diffrent wire/placement setup
but this is just a theory though
even if they did make it like that we would still be able to see were the traces go and we could follow them from a place that is designated.
the eeprom, like a few people suggested, is probably were the swapping of dvd drives is enabled or disabled.
one thing, if the eeprom is useless and was used in dev kits then in the newer versions the eeprom might be stored in the TSOP near the CPU, which is probably more likely.
Post by: deadparrot on December 05, 2005, 10:04:00 AM
You solder the EEProm into the Premium system?
You solder a blank EEProm into the Core? Does it end up with data on it after use?
You solder a blank EEProm into the Premium? Does it end up with data on it after use?
I expect the TSOPs cannot be swapped because of the per box key not being able to decrypt the contents.
Post by: iLLNESS on December 05, 2005, 01:58:00 PM
either way, itd be nice to see the eeprom dumped thatll explain a little more
Post by: jROC99 on December 05, 2005, 03:08:00 PM
Like the Hard-Drives in the old Xboxs
jROC
Post by: ssj4android on December 05, 2005, 04:09:00 PM
Post by: Gman22 on December 05, 2005, 04:44:00 PM
QUOTE(deadparrot @ Dec 5 2005, 12:04 PM)
What happens if:
You solder the EEProm into the Premium system?
You solder a blank EEProm into the Core? Does it end up with data on it after use?
You solder a blank EEProm into the Premium? Does it end up with data on it after use?
I expect the TSOPs cannot be swapped because of the per box key not being able to decrypt the contents.
Quote from his site..."EEprom desoldering ... but my programmer cannot read it ... sigh!!"
So how would you check for data then?
Post by: PCBUILDERCHRIS on December 05, 2005, 05:59:00 PM
heres what i think should happen when it does become cracked someone release a video and upload it to the usual places or underground somewhere we dont need news about the first 360 mod on the first page it needs to be deep in the forums somewhere where a normal m$ spy couldnt find and if they did they wouldnt understand
so we need a releasing place
and a code word for when it happens like if it happens well go around the forums saying stuff like man you heard about the "PON FAR" *star trek*
laymens terms
dont go all around telling about the next 360 mod until M$'s dumba$$ RE-leases enough for everone before they start the patching process it could be a year and only the original modded xbox owners will know and then after that first few months or year of a modded box we can start moving free and posting hacks on xboxscene front page
any body get what i mean
i love the progress though keep it up yall
i bet m$ had spies on here cuz how they know about people wanting painted xbox's *faceplates* and all the media 360 handles *media capabilities* need i say more how they find it out? *spies on xboxscene*
why xboxscene? *its like ** DO NOT ATTEMPT TO POST LINK TO THAT WAREZ TORRENT SITE ** was to the riaa and mpaa*
Post by: GamezMan on December 05, 2005, 06:09:00 PM
So did CrackerJack try both 360's after swaping dvd drives, cus im hoping he only tested one of them and it was the one without the eeprom...
The science im hoping is that m$ originaly made the dvd-drives to only work with the original 360 and thats what the eeprom is for..... then they dicided not to be 1st class dick-heads and say naa we cant do that, so took them out...
But im most likely wrong and if so i hate m$ for such i stupid move... its obvious to all that the dvd-drive is the most likely thing to fail.... iv had to change a few for ppl and my self.. but now we're gonna have to send it to them if it brakes.... daaaaaaaaaaaam .
Anyway this was realy interesting and good reading, i dont got a 360 and im no-hacker. but im reading regular with intrest. Keep up the good works gals and guys.
Peace
Post by: tekno5 on December 08, 2005, 09:16:00 AM
if the dvdrom drive is locked like the old xbox hdd then maybe while the dvdrom drive is in the 360 try to split the data cables using some sort of two-way split so that when you turn on the 360 the 360 unlocks the drive and the pc trys to read the disc.
i wish i could have a go but i have no 360 yet
Post by: crystalgeek on December 08, 2005, 11:13:00 AM
Post by: modthebox.tk on December 08, 2005, 08:39:00 PM
QUOTE(PCBUILDERCHRIS @ Dec 6 2005, 02:59 AM)
Okay i know this may be off the subject but.........
heres what i think should happen when it does become cracked someone release a video and upload it to the usual places or underground somewhere we dont need news about the first 360 mod on the first page it needs to be deep in the forums somewhere where a normal m$ spy couldnt find and if they did they wouldnt understand
so we need a releasing place
and a code word for when it happens like if it happens well go around the forums saying stuff like man you heard about the "PON FAR" *star trek*
laymens terms
dont go all around telling about the next 360 mod until M$'s dumba$$ RE-leases enough for everone before they start the patching process it could be a year and only the original modded xbox owners will know and then after that first few months or year of a modded box we can start moving free and posting hacks on xboxscene front page
any body get what i mean
i love the progress though keep it up yall
i bet m$ had spies on here cuz how they know about people wanting painted xbox's *faceplates* and all the media 360 handles *media capabilities* need i say more how they find it out? *spies on xboxscene*
why xboxscene? *its like ** DO NOT ATTEMPT TO POST LINK TO THAT WAREZ TORRENT SITE ** was to the riaa and mpaa*
guys... he has a point.
I mean as we speak my friend is trying to get the private key off the xbox. if xbox and x360 both have the same private key then we are all set..
how will he get the key? well... magic
.anyway there should be a code word and there should be a chat place on IRC where the underground operations are performed, but mebe not..
Post by: nadnerb on December 09, 2005, 03:07:00 AM
Im a secret spy sent by Billy Gates to check up on you guys.
Thanks for telling me your top secret plans.
But seriously, thats not gonna work is it.
How are you going to tell people about this secret community without the 'spies' finding out.
I can just imagine the people who designed the xbox 360 security system reading this forum and saying "nope, its not that", "nope, wrong again
", "oooh close, but not close enough", "give up, you're never gonna find it " etcPost by: a360 on January 03, 2007, 04:36:00 PM
(this has probably been posted before)
but maybe there is a relation between the factories in which they were built?
time @ which the factories were informed to build something different ?
(mistake in debug/build - retail ) or something like that ?
Yes, there seems to be a relation to patchwork from the bios/desktop,
but maybe M$ has to support the older (mistaken) units.
Let's compare factory/team info.
ps. I guess i've read all threads, sorry if this was already discussed
Post by: No_Name on January 03, 2007, 05:07:00 PM
Post by: A Dubya2 on January 04, 2007, 07:52:00 PM
QUOTE(lilbplaya3406 @ Dec 4 2005, 11:30 PM)
Ms is just trying to confuse us with putting in stuff that doesnt need to be there, it will just take us longer to mod it.
I can assure you, microsoft's main goal is profit, putting useless in parts is a waste of money.
Post by: FrEaKsHoW12390 on January 04, 2007, 08:05:00 PM
QUOTE(A Dubya2 @ Jan 4 2007, 08:59 PM)
I can assure you, microsoft's main goal is profit, putting useless in parts is a waste of money.
lol yeah that is true all they care about is profit