Post by: pug_ster on December 13, 2005, 06:41:00 PM
It looks like the American Government is spying on peaceful protestors. It is no different than what the USSR is doing in the Cold War era. The last time when the Government has done that, it was during the Vietnam War. Thanks to the Patriot Act, this kind of spying is legal in order to 'protect the country.'
Post by: Arvarden on December 14, 2005, 07:13:00 AM
Not too far from now I'll have the council tax inspector inspecting my property to see if he/she can squeese extra tax's out of me for having a nice view from my kitchen window and he will also increase my tax if I have made any home improvements.
Needless to say he/she will not step one foot on my property and I will refuse to pay the fine they give me. I will prolly end up doing some time until I can get the european courts to overturn this stealth tax. Oh and if I get man rapped while inside I will kill that slime ball that calls himself T.B.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
This post has been edited by Arvarden: Dec 14 2005, 03:15 PM
Post by: pug_ster on December 14, 2005, 09:41:00 AM
This post has been edited by pug_ster: Dec 14 2005, 05:43 PM
Post by: lordvader129 on December 14, 2005, 10:25:00 AM
QUOTE
The Fort Lauderdale protest was deemed not to be a credible threat and a column in the database concludes: US group exercising constitutional rights. Two-hundred and forty-three other incidents in the database were discounted because they had no connection to the Department of Defense
problem?
QUOTE
yet they all remained in the database.
anyone who works with any kind of database can tell you things like this are always kept as references, so in the future someone asks "whatever came of that ft lauderdale meeting?" they can look it and not have to launch a whole new invesitgation
Post by: Arvarden on December 14, 2005, 11:17:00 AM
This post has been edited by Arvarden: Dec 14 2005, 07:18 PM
Post by: pug_ster on December 16, 2005, 02:22:00 PM
This is the first time that a president has authorized a government agency to violate a specific prohibition to eavesdroping on Americans without warrants. Even other Republican politicans like McCain and Specter said that this is inappropriate and troubling, and you hear Bush say this:
QUOTE
I will make this point, he (Bush) continued. That whatever I do to protect the American people and I have an obligation to do so that we will uphold the law, and decisions made are made understanding we have an obligation to protect the civil liberties of the American people.
It makes you think that Bush is more like Big Brother.
QUOTE(lordvader129 @ Dec 14 2005, 06:25 PM) 
public records kept on a public meeting...invasion of publicity?
problem?
anyone who works with any kind of database can tell you things like this are always kept as references, so in the future someone asks "whatever came of that ft lauderdale meeting?" they can look it and not have to launch a whole new invesitgation
I'm sorry, but Bush's spread of fear is so unbelievable that it seems okay for everybody to get spied on for the price of 'Freedom.' This kind of crap is probably something that Stalin or Jiang Zemin would do, not in America.
Post by: damam on December 17, 2005, 12:35:00 PM
QUOTE(Arvarden @ Dec 14 2005, 03:13 AM)
The war on terror is a war on our civil liberties.
Not too far from now I'll have the council tax inspector inspecting my property to see if he/she can squeese extra tax's out of me for having a nice view from my kitchen window and he will also increase my tax if I have made any home improvements.
Needless to say he/she will not step one foot on my property and I will refuse to pay the fine they give me. I will prolly end up doing some time until I can get the european courts to overturn this stealth tax. . .
That is horrible - Good luck with that.
Post by: lordvader129 on December 17, 2005, 05:28:00 PM
QUOTE
I'm sorry, but Bush's spread of fear is so unbelievable that it seems okay for everybody to get spied on for the price of 'Freedom.' This kind of crap is probably something that Stalin or Jiang Zemin would do, not in America.
you say people are being 'spied" on, but everything listed was public to begin with
now if bush was keeping tabs on what peopel talk about in the privacy of their own homes, or something, then it would be different
oh, and if you want to talk about invasion of privacy, the clinton administration started echelon, which has been described by the very apt quote 'Big Brother Will Know Your Every Move'
like pretty much everything bush does, invasion of privacy for the sake of national security is nothing new
Post by: pug_ster on December 17, 2005, 10:39:00 PM
QUOTE(lordvader129 @ Dec 18 2005, 01:28 AM)
you say people are being 'spied" on, but everything listed was public to begin with
now if bush was keeping tabs on what peopel talk about in the privacy of their own homes, or something, then it would be different
oh, and if you want to talk about invasion of privacy, the clinton administration started echelon, which has been described by the very apt quote 'Big Brother Will Know Your Every Move'
like pretty much everything bush does, invasion of privacy for the sake of national security is nothing new
Most of these people in the NSA 'infilitrate' these peace groups posing themselves as peace activists. It is basically the same as some NARC infilitrate a drug ring by joining them. At least the NARC would get a warrant/court order to do so.
There's a big difference between Bush is doing with the NSA and Clinton is doing is doing with echelon. 1) echelon mostly does its spying outside the US, not against Americans living in the US. 2) They usually would get a warrant/court order from a judge before spying.
Post by: lordvader129 on December 18, 2005, 10:58:00 AM
QUOTE
1) echelon mostly does its spying outside the US, not against Americans living in the US.
you honestly believe that?
QUOTE
2) They usually would get a warrant/court order from a judge before spying.
see above
This post has been edited by lordvader129: Dec 18 2005, 06:58 PM
Post by: damam on December 18, 2005, 11:33:00 AM
QUOTE(pug_ster @ Dec 17 2005, 06:46 PM)
There's a big difference between Bush is doing with the NSA and Clinton is doing is doing with . . .
What clinton did with the IRS, Justice Dept, FBI, and Echelon pales in comparison. And just think, in a couple years we could go through it all over again.
Post by: puckSR on December 18, 2005, 12:11:00 PM
Law enforcement frequently bends the rules...they know that if they get caught they will be in trouble, so they only bend the rules in extreme cases. It is still illegal, so they are still technically breaking the law.
PATRIOT ACT: This actually creates a law that violates civil liberties, and because of its rather vague nature it gives law enforcement a great deal of leeway in breaking the law. The problem with government or law enforcement or any "protecting" agency is that they will always be more effective if they are given more freedom in their actions. However, if you give them too much freedom they begin to abuse the power and make mistakes.
The PATRIOT ACT is much worse than what previous administrations did, because it is a law that allows the constitution to be violated.
Post by: lordvader129 on December 18, 2005, 12:15:00 PM
like i said, its been going on for 229 years, the only difference is now you can read about it in the newspaper
but i suppose ignorance is bliss
This post has been edited by lordvader129: Dec 18 2005, 08:17 PM
Post by: puckSR on December 18, 2005, 12:28:00 PM
it is illegal for you to drive faster than the posted speed limit
some people drive faster than the posted speed limit
You may have a good excuse to be driving faster than the posted speed limit, and if you can justify your reason in court, then you will be absolved. You may have had a medical emergency. This does not, however, mean that anyone with a medical emergency is allowed to speed. There is no law that specifically states that you may speed, the courts do allow exceptions though. If the law stated that an emergency situation allows you to violate all traffic laws, and you are allowed to decide what constitutes an emergency, then many people would be driving recklessly on the roads.
The point is...there is a clear difference between making exceptions, and flat out allowing something. Previously we made exceptions, the Patriot Act flat out allows the violation of civil liberties.
Post by: damam on December 18, 2005, 12:53:00 PM
However, atleast this administration can say it was done to save the lives of americans. What Clinton did was purely for political stronge arming.
Post by: lordvader129 on December 18, 2005, 12:47:00 PM
QUOTE
The point is...there is a clear difference between making exceptions, and flat out allowing something. Previously we made exceptions, the Patriot Act flat out allows the violation of civil liberties.
cops dont give other cops tickets. period. another cop doesnt have to justify why he was speeding while off duty, he just shows his badge and is free to go, thats not an exception, its an unspoken rule, if they were to pass a law saying off duty cops dont have to abide by traffic regulations it would simply mean they dont have to pretend this doesnt happen every day
the only real change from the patiot act is that groups like the nsa dont have to feel any slight pang of guilt when they go about doing what theyve always done, and never had to be accountable for
if the patriot act wasnt passed nothing would be different, except maybe a lot of pressure would have been put on NBC to not publish that article about the database of protest groups, and NBC would have caved and never printed it, or pulled it from the website with a retration about how they had bad sources or soemthing like that
so unless you honestly think some magical force was someday going to come along and hold the government responsible for all of their own laws that theyve broken (HA!) the patriot act changes absolutely NOTHING
Post by: pug_ster on December 18, 2005, 02:32:00 PM
QUOTE(lordvader129 @ Dec 18 2005, 08:54 PM)
cops dont give other cops tickets. period. another cop doesnt have to justify why he was speeding while off duty, he just shows his badge and is free to go, thats not an exception, its an unspoken rule, if they were to pass a law saying off duty cops dont have to abide by traffic regulations it would simply mean they dont have to pretend this doesnt happen every day
the only real change from the patiot act is that groups like the nsa dont have to feel any slight pang of guilt when they go about doing what theyve always done, and never had to be accountable for
if the patriot act wasnt passed nothing would be different, except maybe a lot of pressure would have been put on NBC to not publish that article about the database of protest groups, and NBC would have caved and never printed it, or pulled it from the website with a retration about how they had bad sources or soemthing like that
so unless you honestly think some magical force was someday going to come along and hold the government responsible for all of their own laws that theyve broken (HA!) the patriot act changes absolutely NOTHING
It is all about checks and balances. The NSA agent usually asks the judge for a warrant/court order before doing so. If the person is suspected to be involved in terrorism, the judge probably doesn't question and allows them to do so. What about someone peace group who doesn't exactly support Bush's ideas? Do you think it is illegal to not support Bush's ideas? No, the Judge certainly won't allow that to happen. With the patriot act, some NSA agent can look into Peace activists without the intervention of the Judges.
Bush's patriot act broke the checks and balances and gave more power to the executive branch of the government. This week Bush blasted at the senate because they didn't want to extend the Patriot act. Bush to take power away from the Legistative and judical branch so that he can boost his power. Many dictators and despots are born by taking away powers from the other branches of the government and give it to themselves.
Post by: pug_ster on December 19, 2005, 09:12:00 AM
Wiretaps without court approval - Even before 9/11, wiretaps without a court order is allowed (but you need a court order within 72 hours) under extraordinary circumstances. So I don't know what Bush is talking about judges as 'red tape.' In fact since 1979, of the about 19,000 wiretap requests are asked only 5 of them are rejected.
Bush says that it was a shameful act to disclose this information and it 'emboldens' the enemy. The New York Times knew about this story but sat on this story for a year because the White House asked them not to post it. I don't know how are we hinting at the 'enemy' when the news didn't went specific on what kind of wiretapes out there was taken. Some of the senate already knew about this NSA spying, but they are required by law not do disclose this information to the public and they did.
It seemed to me that the more Bush talk, the more pathetic he gets.
Post by: damam on December 19, 2005, 10:37:00 AM
QUOTE(pug_ster @ Dec 19 2005, 05:19 AM)
Wiretaps without court approval - Even before 9/11, wiretaps without a court order is allowed (but you need a court order within 72 hours) under extraordinary circumstances. So I don't know what Bush is talking about judges as 'red tape.' In fact since 1979, of the about 19,000 wiretap requests are asked only 5 of them are rejected.
fisa courts have only turned down 2 . . . its basically a guarantee you will get them if you ask
Post by: lordvader129 on December 19, 2005, 11:29:00 AM
QUOTE(damam @ Dec 19 2005, 11:44 AM)
fisa courts have only turned down 2 . . . its basically a guarantee you will get them if you ask
how many requests were never submitted because they knew theyd be turned down, but then wiretaps installed anyway, off the record?
you say the patriot act means that big brother is watching, but big brother has been watching for as long as big brother has had eyes and ears, and before you say theres checks and balances in place, think about it, whos checking and balancing? the same government thats planting the wiretaps, they all just look the other way in the same direction
sure, you say nixon tried it and got in alot of trouble, but thats only because some reporters found out and went public, how often does this happen and no one knows about it?
maybe being raised by the daughter of a former nazi officer means my family was subject to more scrutiny, but believe me, the government has ALWAYS spied on people, with or without court issued warrants
Post by: red.bull.x on December 19, 2005, 11:56:00 AM
QUOTE
Most of these people in the NSA 'infilitrate' these peace groups posing themselves as peace activists. It is basically the same as some NARC infilitrate a drug ring by joining them. At least the NARC would get a warrant/court order to do so.
pug_ster,
You are quick to blame the US. Government and the Bush administration for everything. I want you to do me a favor 'go get you some' then come back here and bitch about your freedom and privacy being violated. If your so concerned about it do something. Don't post your Anti-American propaganda on xbox-scene. Freedom costs a dear price. War is a dirty business nobody ever said it wasn't. Ask yourself something tonight while your playing around on your xbox or clicking away on your keyboard playing 'arm chair general'. Is there something I can do to change my future and the future of my children to insure their safety? To insure my own privacy and protect the freedom from which you obviously take for granted. Do you know what it's like to loose your friends in a war? To watch your best friend cough up blood while you are holding his intestines in your hands trying to keep them from spilling all over the place while bullets are flying over your head? Making a clap clap clap sound? The sound of an AK-47? Then a couple of mortor rounds go off? Do you know what it's like to lay in your hooch at night hearing car bombs go off outside the LSA where your living? You know what it's like reading letters from your wife telling you the electric company is cutting off the lights this month because the bill hasn't been paid while your off in some 3rd world country several thousand miles away from home getting shot at and in constant fear of loosing your life? Or the rent hasn't been paid and your family is facing eviction on the 1st of the month? Your wondering if your even going to make it that long? Have ya ever been powerless? NO i seriously doubt it. Have you ever herd insurgents running around outside ur hooch and you can hear the crunch crunch from the rocks outside... then you hear a door from one of the hooches getting kicked and some gunfire going off? Ever herd someone get on the radio late at night and say India 1 India 1 over. Yeah this is India 1 go ahead. Yeah Mike Bravo has reported insurgents thoroughing mattresses over the wire to jump the t-walls we need you to secure the LSA immediately. Or BOOM! we need everyone in a hard structure. Everyone needs to report to a hard structure... Its some scary shit... And yeah it's normal people just like you over there. So while you sit there and enjoy stuffing your face with food and playing your 'action packed' games remember something there are people risking there lives and making sacrifices 'freedoms' included to protect you from real threats 'terrorists living inside the USA' planning attacks inside US soil. And btw, NSA has a mission, you really think they are going to jeopardize there mission which is far more important than you will ever understand. Until you have made the same sacrifices, your just talking out of your ass.
Im all about freedom and privacy! but unless you have made some effort to insure it and protect it. How can you back up your statements? People who stand for nothing will fall for anything. Where are your principles? Your loyalty? Whos side are you on?
Post by: pug_ster on December 19, 2005, 01:21:00 PM
QUOTE(red.bull.x @ Dec 19 2005, 08:03 PM)
pug_ster,
You are quick to blame the US. Government and the Bush administration for everything. I want you to do me a favor 'go get you some' then come back here and bitch about your freedom and privacy being violated. If your so concerned about it do something. Don't post your Anti-American propaganda on xbox-scene. Freedom costs a dear price. War is a dirty business nobody ever said it wasn't. Ask yourself something tonight while your playing around on your xbox or clicking away on your keyboard playing 'arm chair general'. Is there something I can do to change my future and the future of my children to insure their safety? .....
You should consider living in Russia, China, or North Korea because it seems okay for Big Brother to watch you all the time without boundries or limits. Red.Bull.X, this is the typical stuff I would hear from some brainwashed, uneducated person who don't understand what the Constitution is and what it stands for.
Post by: pug_ster on December 19, 2005, 01:45:00 PM
QUOTE(lordvader129 @ Dec 19 2005, 07:36 PM)
how many requests were never submitted because they knew theyd be turned down, but then wiretaps installed anyway, off the record?
you say the patriot act means that big brother is watching, but big brother has been watching for as long as big brother has had eyes and ears, and before you say theres checks and balances in place, think about it, whos checking and balancing? the same government thats planting the wiretaps, they all just look the other way in the same direction
sure, you say nixon tried it and got in alot of trouble, but thats only because some reporters found out and went public, how often does this happen and no one knows about it?
maybe being raised by the daughter of a former nazi officer means my family was subject to more scrutiny, but believe me, the government has ALWAYS spied on people, with or without court issued warrants
Unfortunately, there's always an abuse of power in the US government. Hey, but we need those reporters and the ACLU to point out the injustices and abuses. I rather have them make those complaints than to have them silenced like many other communist countries. And for Bush say that it was a 'shameful act' for New York Times to release this story is no different. It seems that to you that Freedom of the Press is optional in the US.
Nixon only got 2 former CIA agents to do watergate and it got him in hot water. Yet it seems okay to you for Bush to have an executive order to use the NSA to violate Americans' civil rights.
Post by: red.bull.x on December 19, 2005, 02:36:00 PM
You should consider living in Russia, China, or North Korea because it seems okay for Big Brother to watch you all the time without boundries or limits. Red.Bull.X, this is the typical stuff I would hear from some brainwashed, uneducated person who don't understand what the Constitution is and what it stands for.
pug_ster,
First off it's boundaries not boundries. Did you mean: boundaries? and it would be doesnt not don't.
Furthermore, You obviously have way to much time on your hands. You should really consider doing a spell check before insulting someone and making claims that they are uneducated. You can't even spell. I'm not even going to respond to your comment about the Constitution your out of step. You can't back up anything you say with personal experience. Everything you claim has already been said before. Where is your personal experience? I can backup what I say, what about you?
pft... get a job.
Post by: damam on December 19, 2005, 02:48:00 PM
QUOTE(lordvader129 @ Dec 19 2005, 07:36 AM)
how many requests were never submitted because they knew theyd be turned down, but then wiretaps installed anyway, off the record?
Thats a good question to which i dont think we will ever know the answer too. But the FISA courts have long been criticized for its willingness to give wiretaps and "sneak and peak" search warrants.
QUOTE
the government has ALWAYS spied on people, with or without court issued warrants
true - but that doesnt make it right
Post by: pug_ster on December 19, 2005, 03:53:00 PM
QUOTE(red.bull.x @ Dec 19 2005, 10:43 PM)
pug_ster,
First off it's boundaries not boundries. Did you mean: boundaries? and it would be doesnt not don't.
Furthermore, You obviously have way to much time on your hands. You should really consider doing a spell check before insulting someone and making claims that they are uneducated. You can't even spell. I'm not even going to respond to your comment about the Constitution your out of step. You can't back up anything you say with personal experience. Everything you claim has already been said before. Where is your personal experience? I can backup what I say, what about you?
pft... get a job.
Believe it or not I do have a job and I am working today. You want to talk about my spelling or BS'ing about me being unpatriotic, that's your opinion. I'm used to the fact that several people here who can't post anything relevant to the thread at hand so they have to get personal, like you.
I, like most Americans want those terrorists eradicated. The Bush Administration can do it without spying on innocent Americans, have American's civil rights violated, or breaking laws.
Post by: red.bull.x on December 19, 2005, 04:40:00 PM
QUOTE
Believe it or not I do have a job and I am working today. You want to talk about my spelling or BS'ing about me being unpatriotic, that's your prerogative. I'm used to the fact that several people here who can't post anything relevant to the thread at hand so they have to get personal, like you.
pug_ster,
I never stated that you were 'unpatriotic'. You just did.
The men and woman working for NSA really do care about your privacy and believe it or not. They respect it, because they are also American citizens.
When was the last time you voted?
I encourage you to keep stating your thoughts and voice your opinion. You do have some valid concerns but you still haven't backed it up with anything concrete. Prove to the rest of us that what you say is the truth. Give me some facts and not some shit you copied and pasted from searching news forums or articles off Reuters. Put some effort into it. Give me something. If you really care and believe what you have posted prove it to me.
Thanks.
Post by: lordvader129 on December 19, 2005, 04:41:00 PM
QUOTE
Unfortunately, there's always an abuse of power in the US government. Hey, but we need those reporters and the ACLU to point out the injustices and abuses. I rather have them make those complaints than to have them silenced like many other communist countries. And for Bush say that it was a 'shameful act' for New York Times to release this story is no different. It seems that to you that Freedom of the Press is optional in the US.
heh, i was chief editor of my college newspaper for 3 semesters, and even in that "lofty" position of media power it was made clear to me that freedom of the press is as much of a myth as privacy is, you blame bush for taking away civil liberties, but you never really had them to begin with
QUOTE
Nixon only got 2 former CIA agents to do watergate and it got him in hot water. Yet it seems okay to you for Bush to have an executive order to use the NSA to violate Americans' civil rights.
like i said before, nixon only got in trouble because he got caught, other times its washed over, ignored, or not even noticed in the first placeQUOTE
true - but that doesnt make it right
i agree its not right, im just saying it happens, always has and most likely always will
Post by: PhatIrishBastard on December 19, 2005, 09:23:00 PM
QUOTE(red.bull.x @ Dec 19 2005, 02:03 PM)
pug_ster,
You are quick to blame the US. Government and the Bush administration for everything. I want you to do me a favor 'go get you some' then come back here and bitch about your freedom and privacy being violated. If your so concerned about it do something. Don't post your Anti-American propaganda on xbox-scene. Freedom costs a dear price. War is a dirty business nobody ever said it wasn't. Ask yourself something tonight while your playing around on your xbox or clicking away on your keyboard playing 'arm chair general'. Is there something I can do to change my future and the future of my children to insure their safety? To insure my own privacy and protect the freedom from which you obviously take for granted. Do you know what it's like to loose your friends in a war? To watch your best friend cough up blood while you are holding his intestines in your hands trying to keep them from spilling all over the place while bullets are flying over your head? Making a clap clap clap sound? The sound of an AK-47? Then a couple of mortor rounds go off? Do you know what it's like to lay in your hooch at night hearing car bombs go off outside the LSA where your living? You know what it's like reading letters from your wife telling you the electric company is cutting off the lights this month because the bill hasn't been paid while your off in some 3rd world country several thousand miles away from home getting shot at and in constant fear of loosing your life? Or the rent hasn't been paid and your family is facing eviction on the 1st of the month? Your wondering if your even going to make it that long? Have ya ever been powerless? NO i seriously doubt it. Have you ever herd insurgents running around outside ur hooch and you can hear the crunch crunch from the rocks outside... then you hear a door from one of the hooches getting kicked and some gunfire going off? Ever herd someone get on the radio late at night and say India 1 India 1 over. Yeah this is India 1 go ahead. Yeah Mike Bravo has reported insurgents thoroughing mattresses over the wire to jump the t-walls we need you to secure the LSA immediately. Or BOOM! we need everyone in a hard structure. Everyone needs to report to a hard structure... Its some scary shit... And yeah it's normal people just like you over there. So while you sit there and enjoy stuffing your face with food and playing your 'action packed' games remember something there are people risking there lives and making sacrifices 'freedoms' included to protect you from real threats 'terrorists living inside the USA' planning attacks inside US soil. And btw, NSA has a mission, you really think they are going to jeopardize there mission which is far more important than you will ever understand. Until you have made the same sacrifices, your just talking out of your ass.
Im all about freedom and privacy! but unless you have made some effort to insure it and protect it. How can you back up your statements? People who stand for nothing will fall for anything. Where are your principles? Your loyalty? Whos side are you on?
My roomy just went back to the mid east not because of the old glory BS you are spouting but simply for the money, You dont like what uncle sam is paying GO TO COLLEGE.
My dad, and his two older brothers served during Nam and Korea and they voluntered. The s.o.b.'s running this so called war, were to chicken to serve.
You wish to b*tch save it for the commander in chicken. I still havent got my discount gasoline.
They are using you. WAKE UP....... Theyre kids are off somewhere doing coke like their fathers while Halliburton counts the money.. DUMMY
EDIT*
You are way to naive to be the AGE you are trying to insinuate that you are
EDIT*
Post by: pug_ster on December 19, 2005, 10:08:00 PM
QUOTE(red.bull.x @ Dec 20 2005, 12:47 AM)
pug_ster,
I never stated that you were 'unpatriotic'. You just did.
Gee, with that 200+ word Mantra about why "I should serve the military or I should shut up and say thank you" don't make me conclude that you say that I am unpatriotic, I don't know what to say.
QUOTE
The men and woman working for NSA really do care about your privacy and believe it or not. They respect it, because they are also American citizens.
When was the last time you voted?
When was the last time you voted?
You really believe the men and women on the NSA really care for our privacy? That's the best one I heard from you yet. Believe it or not I voted last year and this year.
QUOTE
I encourage you to keep stating your thoughts and voice your opinion. You do have some valid concerns but you still haven't backed it up with anything concrete. Prove to the rest of us that what you say is the truth. Give me some facts and not some shit you copied and pasted from searching news forums or articles off Reuters. Put some effort into it. Give me something. If you really care and believe what you have posted prove it to me.
Have you watched the news pertaining this story? All the major broadcast networks are talking about it. In the Year of the End of the Year Conference today, Bush and the white house did not deny that the stories was not true, in fact Bush said that revealing this story was a 'shameful act.' The republicans was mostly mum about it and the democrats came out blasting. Do you think the press, the president, and the government are denying this story? Either they are lying or you are brainwashed and believe whatever Bush says. I already posted enough information and my opinions for everyone to see here. And you want me to give you something? Do me a favor and get a clue.
Post by: red.bull.x on December 20, 2005, 07:45:00 AM
QUOTE
Let me suggest a hypothetical situation....
If i wanted to overthrow the current government...would the NSA respect my privacy or would they hunt me down without regard for my rights at all?
If i wanted to overthrow the current government...would the NSA respect my privacy or would they hunt me down without regard for my rights at all?
No, it's not NSA policy to 'hunt' people down. That would be a job for what we call a 'task force' which is contrived of several agencies. NSA may collect data only if you are communicating with outside enterprises. Such as a foreign contact outside US. soil. Otherwise the Federal Bureau of Investigation and US. Customs officials along with an oversight from the US. Secret Service would form a joint task force. You will never see an 'NSA' employee present during an investigation. The only time they ever get involved is during a closed court either after or before the suspect has been retained by law enforcement. So to answer your question, No NSA will not hunt you down and Yes, even then they would still have to respect your privacy and civil liberties within the boundaries of US. Law. You are always considered innocent until proven guilty. Now if the US. Government has solid evidence proving your planning such an act. They can create what is called a sealed indictment. Then all is fair game.
Good question!
Post by: pug_ster on December 20, 2005, 10:46:00 AM
QUOTE
"I believe in a strong, robust executive authority and I think that the world we live in demands it. And to some extent, that we have an obligation as the administration to pass on the offices we hold to our successors in as good of shape as we found them."
This fear monger said we will get another 9/11 if we don't listen to what he says:
QUOTE
"You know, it's not an accident that we haven't been hit in four years," Cheney said. "I think there's a temptation for people to sit around and say, 'Well, gee that was just a one-of affair, they didn't really mean it.' "
This is absolutely ridiculous. He used this same fear to justify why big brother is really your friend. As a result of spying on americans without warrants, he can't even produce any significant results than before than there was a need for warrants.
Post by: PhatIrishBastard on December 20, 2005, 01:26:00 PM
QUOTE(pug_ster @ Dec 20 2005, 12:53 PM)
http://www.abcnews.g...tory?id=1424747
At least Cheney was more direct than Bush and his quote:
This fear monger said we will get another 9/11 if we don't listen to what he says:
This is absolutely ridiculous. He used this same fear to justify why big brother is really your friend. As a result of spying on americans without warrants, he can't even produce any significant results than before than there was a need for warrants.
I have yet to read about any new security measure that would prevent 9 Saudis from flying another plane into a building or just placing an explosive in plane cargo hold.
They werent illlegal aliens, had valid visas, and drivers liscenses.
60 Billion and all we got are sky marshalls. Not 100% luggage checks, or nonmexican immigration reform.
Shamefull
Post by: red.bull.x on December 20, 2005, 05:59:00 PM
QUOTE
60 Billion and all we got are sky marshalls. Not 100% luggage checks, or nonmexican immigration reform.
Shamefull ph34r.gif
PhatIrishBastard,
Good point! I agree. We could be doing a lot more to secure our nation.
Post by: puckSR on December 21, 2005, 05:31:00 PM
Remember guerilla warfare? Same thing....its much harder to stop
Revolutionary War
Vietnam War
Terrorism
It is much harder to stop small, loosely organized groups, than a broad enemy who is strictly defined
Well, the only way to defeat your enemy....kill everyone
Post by: pug_ster on December 31, 2005, 12:55:00 AM
Now the Bush Administration is going after the person(s) who leaked this information. Don't they have better things to do?
Post by: damam on January 03, 2006, 10:24:00 AM
QUOTE(puckSR @ Dec 19 2005, 07:31 PM)
If i wanted to overthrow the current government...would the NSA respect my privacy or would they hunt me down without regard for my rights at all?
Dont know about the NSA, but I can relate a story about the CIA. My Mothers cousin was in the CIA and when he retired, his house was burned to the ground and so was his RV that was stored on an offsite lot by aronists all in the same night. Now it could have been some local hood lums who happened to have gotten both. But I think we all know who it really was. Was he doing something maybe he shouldnt have? Probably. Were his rights trampled on? Definitely.
Post by: pug_ster on January 20, 2006, 05:52:00 PM
Looks like Bush is going to start a PR campaign to tell us that Big Brother is good for our country. Outside for election/re-election, I don't know when there was a time when a president needs a PR campaign to convience the American People of his Mediocre policies is good for us.
Post by: thewickedjester on January 20, 2006, 09:20:00 PM
QUOTE
It is limited and targeted to al-Qaida communications, with the focus being on detection and prevention.
^ From the article
Now, I'm afraid I have no sources and I dont feel like doing the search to find it, but I do seem to remember when all this 'government spying on its own citizens in the name of terrorism' business came about. Not to long after a guy down the street was arrested for child pornography. The way they found him (again, I appologize for not having sources) was by using the new ok-to-spy go ahead to track his computer. Now, I would not have as big an issue with it if the tool were really being used for what its claimed to be used for. Ill see if I can dig up some sources for this or a related story.
Post by: pug_ster on January 25, 2006, 07:53:00 PM