Post by: gronne on December 04, 2004, 05:35:00 PM
He started talking about his enormous achievements, during his short lifetime. There's no doubt he was glorifying him. Being impressed is one thing, glorifying is completely different. Now I haven't seen the film, but I suppose he's not pictured as the brutal murderer he was. If you ask me he's Alexander the horrible.
Why do we glorify these scumbags?
In my country (Sweden) we have an impressive history to say the least. And my countrymen often speak about such incredible warriors our vikings were, and how powerful our kings were. And I do agree we have an impressive history, but I'm certainly not proud of it. When I think about our vikings I only see imperialistic and extremely brutal murderers who wanted nothing but to conquer weaker people. I don't know anyone here who think bad of the vikings, apart from me.
We can easily glorify Alexander, but never Hitler. Why? Both of them are just as awful, right? But we have pictures of the devestation Hitler caused, not from Alexander's time. I bet everyone feared Alexander just as much.
I think it's sick to look up to these murderers. I sure like to know the history about all powerful men, but only to learn about them, not to glorify them.
Post by: nemt on December 04, 2004, 05:47:00 PM
Post by: EmperorPsiblade on December 04, 2004, 06:42:00 PM
war is murder.. over and over and over until the whole earth runs red with the blood of the enemy!
get used to it... people are been brutally killing each other since we we still Homo Erectus...
Alexander, despite being such an ambitious and educated person, still failed in his goal of conquest by dying at such a young age.. additionally, he was unable to unite his conquered lands so they fell apart after his death...
Post by: gronne on December 04, 2004, 06:07:00 PM
| QUOTE (nemt @ Dec 5 2004, 03:44 AM) |
| Alexander was actually well known as a magnanimous conqueror, and his mercy towards the Persians is a matter of historical fact. |
He still murdered a lot of persians. And if you think he was such a nice fellow, skip him then. I was talking about great warriors in general. Genghis Khan and others are often seen as heroes. They were nothing but horrible murderers eventhough they might've done things resembling to good. Imperialism is never nice. Do you seriously think of them as good people? Then this is what I'm talking about. No one who kill thousands upon thousands of people only to expand an empire, can be seen as heroes.
| QUOTE |
Alexander, despite being such an ambitious and educated person, still failed in his goal of conquest by dying at such a young age.. |
That's wrong. His men made mutiny when he wanted to go further east. So he had to go back. It's very unlikely he would ever be able to expand his empire after the mutiny. He died in in northern Africa, probably due to food-poisoning.
Post by: EmperorPsiblade on December 04, 2004, 07:08:00 PM
i do know how his men refused to push on and returned though i didn't mention it due to it not being me point...
Generals and troops are replaceable... i would have executed them on the spot for treason!
Post by: Maximumbeing on December 04, 2004, 07:34:00 PM
As for Alexander the Great, it is an appropriate title, as "great" does not imply good.
Webster defines it as
: an outstandingly superior or skillful person
He conquered almost the entire known world at the time, I'm willing to bet that you couldn't have.
I think the movie made Alexander a little too Germanic looking, blonde hair, blue eyes. He came well before the assimilation of Germanic tribes.
Post by: FektionFekler on December 04, 2004, 09:56:00 PM
, another great lesson in history butchered by Hollywood. This really annoys me, but in every fucking movie dealing with some classic theme (Greeks, Romans, etc.) they seem to make everyone speak with a British accent like Britain is the fucking pinnacle of the civilized world. 
I wish they would just make them speak Greek or Latin subtitles really aren't that bad, and I would much prefer a somewhat more historically accurate recount of periods such as that, over some bullshit Hollywood take on what really happened like Troy, Alexander, King Author, etc.
Post by: pegasys on December 04, 2004, 09:06:00 PM
Post by: EmperorPsiblade on December 04, 2004, 09:08:00 PM
Post by: FektionFekler on December 04, 2004, 10:13:00 PM
Post by: The unProfessional on December 04, 2004, 10:22:00 PM
actually the've gotten better... for a while there it was NOTHING but WWII
Post by: FektionFekler on December 04, 2004, 10:26:00 PM
Post by: EmperorPsiblade on December 04, 2004, 10:31:00 PM
)i think we all have a fascination with death and the odd things the lunatic Nazi party did...
Post by: Mr. Chips on December 05, 2004, 01:39:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| i'll admit i have a strange fascination with all the death and wierd experiments Hitler did.... I thought it was interesting (anyone play Return to Castle Wolfenstein? laugh.gif ) i think we all have a fascination with death and the odd things the lunatic Nazi party did... |
ummm...NO.
ps. my name is Alexander and I was offended by the movie. Even though I haven't seen it. I'm gonna sue Oliver Stone
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 06:04:00 AM
And Alexander actually was known as Alexander the awful(or something like that) to the persians. And he DEFINITELY didn't treat the persians nicely, unless you think rape and slaughter of innocents to be nice. However, he did intervene persian traditions with Macedonian traditions. He did that in order to easier handle the persians though.
And many do see Genghis Khan as a hero today as well. And I'm not talking about mongols. But Alexander is definitely more seen as a hero, than Genghis Khan is, but I can't see why. Nothing is great about someone who kill other people and his own friends.
It's acceptible to see a leader who fight for freedom, as a hero. But Alexander didn't fight for anyone's freedom. He only fought for his own ego. For crying out loud, he truly believed he was the son of Zeus. Is not that an insane man?
I hope historians will end this madness, and stop glorifying ruthless murderers. Who knows, one day we might look back at Hitler and Bush as heroes. This world is insane.
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 10:08:00 AM
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 5 2004, 04:01 PM) |
| And Alexander actually was known as Alexander the awful(or something like that) to the persians. And he DEFINITELY didn't treat the persians nicely, unless you think rape and slaughter of innocents to be nice. However, he did intervene persian traditions with Macedonian traditions. He did that in order to easier handle the persians though. And many do see Genghis Khan as a hero today as well. And I'm not talking about mongols. But Alexander is definitely more seen as a hero, than Genghis Khan is, but I can't see why. Nothing is great about someone who kill other people and his own friends. It's acceptible to see a leader who fight for freedom, as a hero. But Alexander didn't fight for anyone's freedom. He only fought for his own ego. For crying out loud, he truly believed he was the son of Zeus. Is not that an insane man? I hope historians will end this madness, and stop glorifying ruthless murderers. Who knows, one day we might look back at Hitler and Bush as heroes. This world is insane. |
For the record, I would like to state that you are an idiot. First off the term "GREAT" means nothing more than powerful, he was a man that accomplished some GREAT and AWESOME things during his life, some which few men of that time would have been capable of doing, that is why he is well so well suited of that title. Not everyone is like that of Ivan the Terrible (who was given that title at birth, although it suited him rather well throughout his reign). You are correct though, as I recall man was at his most civilized during the period of 356-323 BC (Alexander the Great) and not 1900- CE. Also, why do you think Persia is so great, did you forget about the Ottoman Empire (aka the "sick man", aka the "eastern question") and the Armenian Genocide?
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 10:46:00 AM
| QUOTE (FektionFekler @ Dec 5 2004, 07:11 PM) |
| For the record, I would like to state that you are an idiot. First off the term "GREAT" means nothing more than powerful, he was a man that accomplished some GREAT and AWESOME things during his life, some which few men of that time would have been capable of doing, that is why he is well so well suited of that title. Not everyone is like that of Ivan the Terrible (who was given that title at birth, although it suited him rather well throughout his reign). You are correct though, as I recall man was at his most civilized during the period of 356-323 BC (Alexander the Great) and not 1900- CE. Also, why do you think Persia is so great, did you forget about the Ottoman Empire (aka the "sick man", aka the "eastern question") and the Armenian Genocide? |
Who's the fucking idiot, here? Ivan the terrible got the name Grozny (thunderous or commonly The terrible) from his soldiers after a battle.
I sure know Great doesn't have to mean anything but powerful, but it IMPLIES goodness. Would people today think so well of him if he was remember as Alexander the terrible? I don't think so.
Most see Ivan as a negative conquerer probably due to his name the terrible. Alexander was no better, and would certainly earn the title the terrible as well.
Please read about Alexander's brutal outrage on the persians, and stop making ignorant posts.
So you're saying The Ottoman Empire got big due to Alexander the greats treatment of the persians? Fucking idiot.
Post by: nemt on December 05, 2004, 11:05:00 AM
| QUOTE (The unProfessional @ Dec 5 2004, 02:25 AM) |
| You mean the Hitler channel? actually the've gotten better... for a while there it was NOTHING but WWII |
Command Decisions > Every Other Show Ever
Post by: EmperorPsiblade on December 05, 2004, 11:05:00 AM
Post by: nemt on December 05, 2004, 11:10:00 AM
| QUOTE (EmperorPsiblade @ Dec 5 2004, 03:08 PM) |
| Alexander hated the Persians for attempting to invade his beloved Greece years earlier... I can certainly see why he would want retribution... |
The UN should've stopped him from invading Persia.
Post by: EmperorPsiblade on December 05, 2004, 11:12:00 AM
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 11:26:00 AM
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 5 2004, 07:49 PM) |
| Who's the fucking idiot, here? Ivan the terrible got the name Grozny (thunderous or commonly The terrible) from his soldiers after a battle. I sure know Great doesn't have to mean anything but powerful, but it IMPLIES goodness. Would people today think so well of him if he was remember as Alexander the terrible? I don't think so. Most see Ivan as a negative conquerer probably due to his name the terrible. Alexander was no better, and would certainly earn the title the terrible as well. Please read about Alexander's brutal outrage on the persians, and stop making ignorant posts. So you're saying The Ottoman Empire got big due to Alexander the greats treatment of the persians? Fucking idiot. |
No Ivan (it is also widely believed that he suffered from paranoia, much like your beloved Stalin) was given that title at birth (his father raised him to be to be tyrant, beating and abusing him as a child, implying that using cruel and excessive force was the only way to maintain power), and he killed his own son in a fit of rage, that doesn't sound like a very "good" guy to me (but of course you must understand the time period, and that the rest of the world didn't act much different). Again, great doesn't imply good, it deals with power, and what that person was able to accomplish in his time, simply put "obtaining the unobtainable". You are still an idiot.
Just wanted to add, how the fuck did you draw this conclusion?
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 5 2004, 07:49 PM) |
| So you're saying The Ottoman Empire got big due to Alexander the greats treatment of the persians? Fucking idiot. |
The only reason I brought up the Ottoman Empire is because you were praising the Persians like they were the greatest thing since sliced bread, and were innocent any crimes against humanity. As EmperorPsiblade previously stated, the Persians didn't show the Greeks much respect when Xerxes invaded them in 490 BC.
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 11:43:00 AM
| QUOTE (EmperorPsiblade @ Dec 5 2004, 08:08 PM) |
| Alexander hated the Persians for attempting to invade his beloved Greece years earlier... I can certainly see why he would want retribution... |
The persians tried invading Greece several times, sometimes successful, sometimes not. Greece did the same to the persians. But no matter Alexander wanted revenge on the persians, he still continued to conquer other people that had nothing to do with the conflict. Don't make him some kind of martyr, please. He bragged about his greatness as a conquerer all the time. He didn't care 2/3's of his army died when he forced them to cross the dessert. The man was an insane murderer.
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 11:59:00 AM
Hypocrisy at it's finest. Che was a great man though right? Binding, gagging, and blindfolding someone and then shooting them in the back of the head while forcing their family watch is great isn't it, especially a thousand times over (a great tactic used by the Soviets and Nazi's to help discourage dissenters, of course they refer to it simply as "re-education")? Che was quite the humanitarian. His real name was fucking Ernesto what a faggot. "You idiot I idolize him for his struggle", in much the same way Neo Nazi's idolize Hitler and the Germans for their struggle.
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 12:03:00 PM
| QUOTE (FektionFekler @ Dec 5 2004, 08:29 PM) |
| No Ivan (it is also widely believed that he suffered from paranoia, much like your beloved Stalin) was given that title at birth (his father raised him to be to be tyrant, beating and abusing him as a child, implying that using cruel and excessive force was the only way to maintain power), and he killed his own son in a fit of rage, that doesn't sound like a very "good" guy to me (but of course you must understand the time period, and that the rest of the world didn't act much different). Again, great doesn't imply good, it deals with power, and what that person was able to accomplish in his time, simply put "obtaining the unobtainable". You are still an idiot. Just wanted to add, how the fuck did you draw this conclusion? The only reason I brought up the Ottoman Empire is because you were praising the Persians like they were the greatest thing since sliced bread, and were innocent any crimes against humanity. As EmperorPsiblade previously stated, the Persians didn't show the Greeks much respect when Xerxes invaded them in 490 BC. |
You've got some serious problems with your attitude. I have never said I like Ivan at all, and I have never said anything about my attitude towards the persians. I'm not in favor of them as you obviously think. Where do you get everything from?
Ivan was just as bad as Alexander and Hitler and others. How can you debate with someone who insists saying Ivan was born with the name "the terrible"? Why don't you read about him and you'll see for yourself.
Stupid arguments about the meaning of great as well. I know it doesn't have to be positive at all, but please walk the street and ask people if they associate great as positive or negative. That's what I'm talking about.
And Xerxes invasion took place about 150 years before Alexander became king.
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 12:08:00 PM
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 5 2004, 09:06 PM) |
| You've got some serious problems with your attitude. I have never said I like Ivan at all, and I have never said anything about my attitude towards the persians. I'm not in favor of them as you obviously think. Where do you get everything from? Ivan was just as bad as Alexander and Hitler and others. How can you debate with someone who insists saying Ivan was born with the name "the terrible"? Why don't you read about him and you'll see for yourself. Stupid arguments about the meaning of great as well. I know it doesn't have to be positive at all, but please walk the street and ask people if they associate great as positive or negative. That's what I'm talking about. And Xerxes invasion took place about 150 years before Alexander became king. |
What's a 150 years anyway?
I mean maybe we will get lucky and forget about the holocaust and 9/11 in another 100 years.
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 12:10:00 PM
| QUOTE (FektionFekler @ Dec 5 2004, 09:02 PM) |
| Hypocrisy at it's finest. Che was a great man though right? I mean tying someone up and shooting them in the back of the head while having their family watch is great isn't it? Che was such a humanitarian. His real name was fucking Ernesto what a faggot. "You idiot I idolize him for his struggle!", in much the same way Neo Nazi's idolize Hitler and the Germans for their struggle. |
Yeah what a lovely comparrison you did. I only use him as a symbol for the struggle. I know he killed infectors, and I think that's awful. You obviously checked him up right now as you seemed surprised his name was Ernesto. The nazi's struggle for something which is the opposite of what I would struggle for.
So everone called Ernesto are homosexuals. You're one sick person.
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 12:12:00 PM
| QUOTE (FektionFekler @ Dec 5 2004, 09:11 PM) |
| What's a 150 years anyway? I mean maybe we will get lucky and forget about the holocaust and 9/11 in another 100 years. |
That's not what I meant, but you made it sound like it happened during Alexanders lifetime. What the hell are you defending? He still muredered a lot of people that had nothing to do with the conflict.
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 12:14:00 PM
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 5 2004, 09:13 PM) |
| Yeah what a lovely comparrison you did. I only use him as a symbol for the struggle. I know he killed infectors, and I think that's awful. You obviously checked him up right now as you seemed surprised his name was Ernesto. The nazi's struggle for something which is the opposite of what I would struggle for. So everone called Ernesto are homosexuals. You're one sick person. |
I'm not suprised in the least bit his first name was Ernesto in the same way I wasn't suprised Hitler's first name was Adolf, they both sound pretty homosexual to me. You call me sick, yet you are the one idolizing a murder.
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 12:16:00 PM
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 5 2004, 09:15 PM) |
| That's not what I meant, but you made it sound like it happened during Alexanders lifetime. What the hell are you defending? He still muredered a lot of people that had nothing to do with the conflict. |
Please tell me during what period this all occurred, and then thoroughly rethink your previous comments.
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 12:18:00 PM
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 12:21:00 PM
Post by: pegasys on December 05, 2004, 12:22:00 PM
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 12:24:00 PM
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 12:25:00 PM
| QUOTE (FektionFekler @ Dec 5 2004, 09:19 PM) |
| Please tell me during what period this all occurred, and then thoroughly rethink your previous comments. |
Elaborate which comments I should re-think. If you refer to my comments about Guevara I can only say that his killings aren't defendable, but he killed people that had very much to do with the conflict. Alexander did NOT. I'm not saying Cuba is a particularly good nation either. But it was a long time ago he died, and he leaved Cuba before he was killed in Bolivia, so you can't say he had much to do with Castro's failure in building up the country.
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 12:32:00 PM
| QUOTE (pegasys @ Dec 5 2004, 09:25 PM) |
| He was a GREAT leader, he was an GREAT commander, and a GREAT tactition. He was imperialistic, so are we. Sll soldiers kill people, thats just how the world was. We are not calling him a saint, we are just saying that he was great. Hitler was a great leader(donm't jump down my throat for this), Eisehower was a great leader, Alexander was a great leader, aand so were many other military figures. It dosn't mean that they were "good" people. Personally, I don't condone the killing of innocents, but sometimes it needs to be done. |
Thatnks for being on the subject.
I didn't say you in particular thought well of him and other leaders. I was talking about those who do. I agree he was a great commander and a great tactitian, but refering to him as a good person (who many do) is really sick.
I can't come to think of anyone who was similar to Alexander or other great leaders, but I guess you would look back at such a leader with pride, like my countrymen do when they think back of the vikings.
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 12:33:00 PM
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 12:35:00 PM
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 5 2004, 09:28 PM) |
| but he killed people that had very much to do with the conflict. Alexander did NOT. |
Do you not understand the concept of imperialism?
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 12:41:00 PM
| QUOTE (FektionFekler @ Dec 5 2004, 09:36 PM) |
| Che was a fucking coward, and deserves no ones respect. He killed people by binding, gagging, blind folding and then shooting them in the back of the head, he wouldn't dare challenge someone like a real man (sounds a lot like your other hero Zarqawi). |
Yeah, Che was a great coward, apart from being ready to die for what he believed in. He was near being killed several times, yet always continued.
Before he was killed it's rumored he said "Shoot me, you're killing a man".
So that justifies his killings of thousands of men? <---refered to Alexander, not Guevara.
| QUOTE |
He was a fucking punk. As for my previous comment, I meant Alexander, as you should well know those weren't the most civilized of times. |
Still doesn't justify jack shit. They were not stupid, or less good people back then. Some of the greatest Philosophers back then were against all the killings.
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 12:43:00 PM
| QUOTE (FektionFekler @ Dec 5 2004, 09:38 PM) |
| Do you not understand the concept of imperialism? |
Yeah, and how the fuck can you defend it? I'm not saying it wasn't imperialistic times back then. But you seem to like imperialism.
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 12:48:00 PM
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 5 2004, 09:44 PM) |
| Before he was killed it's rumored he said "Shoot me, you're killing a man". |
Actually it was more like, "Dont shoot! Im Che. Im worth to you more alive than dead!
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 5 2004, 09:44 PM) |
| So that justifies his killings of thousands of men? Still doesn't justify jack shit. They were not stupid, or less good people back then. Some of the greatest Philosophers back then were against all the killings. |
Yes actually it does, because they didn't know any better, might makes right.
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 12:51:00 PM
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 5 2004, 09:46 PM) |
| Yeah, and how the fuck can you defend it? I'm not saying it wasn't imperialistic times back then. But you seem to like imperialism. |
Then what are you saying?
If it was imperialistic then all the other shit is a given and non-debatable.
Post by: gronne on December 05, 2004, 03:58:00 PM
| QUOTE (FektionFekler @ Dec 5 2004, 09:54 PM) |
| Then what are you saying? If it was imperialistic then all the other shit is a given and non-debatable. |
That's what I'm talking about, you've lead this "debate" to stupid comments about Ivan's birth title, and things that haven't got jack shit to do with my topic.
I brought up the discussion to question our views TODAY!!! What's history is history, but we decide to look at it very differently. I was questioning our ways to look at the ruthless murderers as heroes. I can't change history, and I wouldn't want to either. But I would hope people could be more rational when absorbing the history.
Post by: Maximumbeing on December 05, 2004, 04:28:00 PM
Post by: FektionFekler on December 05, 2004, 08:17:00 PM
| QUOTE (gronne @ Dec 6 2004, 01:01 AM) |
| That's what I'm talking about, you've lead this "debate" to stupid comments about Ivan's birth title, and things that haven't got jack shit to do with my topic. I brought up the discussion to question our views TODAY!!! What's history is history, but we decide to look at it very differently. I was questioning our ways to look at the ruthless murderers as heroes. I can't change history, and I wouldn't want to either. But I would hope people could be more rational when absorbing the history. |
Your view is fucking irrelevant to the time period at hand, and actually those "stupid" comments had anything and everything to do with the topic at hand, try reading, it does wonders.
Post by: Baner on December 06, 2004, 11:46:00 AM