Post by: AkumAPRIME on July 28, 2004, 01:29:00 PM
This thread is in response to waht I think this other thread I just read was trying to do. It jsut did it very poorly.
This post has been edited by AkumAPRIME on Jul 28 2004, 08:32 PM
Post by: BigMitch on July 28, 2004, 02:04:00 PM
I am a Christian in that I believe in Christ Jesus, but as Gods son AS IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE!
I am a Jehovah's Witness and for the record we do believe in Jesus but that he is not God but his son.
Jehovah is Gods name and even movies and tv shows admit it. The religious leaders of the world remove Gods name and change the bible to say what they want people to believe. I mean now there are "Christians" the believe in evolution!
The Bible is Gods word and he tells us his name and wants us to use it!
Psalms 83:18 "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth."
And you can check that out on other bible websites or in your own.
Here is the Jehovah's Witnesses web site if you would like to know more about what we believe or you can ask me, but I'm only 16 what do I know, Right?
http://www.watchtower.org
This post has been edited by BigMitch on Jul 28 2004, 09:05 PM
Post by: AkumAPRIME on July 28, 2004, 02:13:00 PM
Post by: BigMitch on July 28, 2004, 05:01:00 PM
This post has been edited by BigMitch on Jul 29 2004, 12:02 AM
Post by: AkumAPRIME on July 29, 2004, 12:03:00 AM
Post by: Zero on July 29, 2004, 02:08:00 AM
Post by: BigMitch on July 29, 2004, 12:00:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| JEHOVAH (Je·ho´vah) [the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wah´ (become); meaning "He Causes to Become"]. The personal name of God. (Isa 42:8; 54:5) Though Scripturally designated by such descriptive titles as "God," "Sovereign Lord," "Creator," "Father," "the Almighty," and "the Most High," his personality and attributes-who and what he is-are fully summed up and expressed only in this personal name.-Ps 83:18. Correct Pronunciation of the Divine Name. "Jehovah" is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, although "Yahweh" is favored by most Hebrew scholars. The oldest Hebrew manuscripts present the name in the form of four consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammaton (from Greek te·tra-, meaning "four," and gram´ma, "letter"). These four letters (written from right to left) are ???? and may be transliterated into English as YHWH (or, JHVH). The Hebrew consonants of the name are therefore known. The question is, Which vowels are to be combined with those consonants? Vowel points did not come into use in Hebrew until the second half of the first millennium C.E. (See HEBREW, II [Hebrew Alphabet and Script].) Furthermore, because of a religious superstition that had begun centuries earlier, the vowel pointing found in Hebrew manuscripts does not provide the key for determining which vowels should appear in the divine name. Superstition hides the name. At some point a superstitious idea arose among the Jews that it was wrong even to pronounce the divine name (represented by the Tetragrammaton). Just what basis was originally assigned for discontinuing the use of the name is not definitely known. Some hold that the name was viewed as being too sacred for imperfect lips to speak. Yet the Hebrew Scriptures themselves give no evidence that any of God's true servants ever felt any hesitancy about pronouncing his name. Non-Biblical Hebrew documents, such as the so-called Lachish Letters, show the name was used in regular correspondence in Palestine during the latter part of the seventh century B.C.E. Another view is that the intent was to keep non-Jewish peoples from knowing the name and possibly misusing it. However, Jehovah himself said that he would `have his name declared in all the earth' (Ex 9:16; compare 1Ch 16:23, 24; Ps 113:3; Mal 1:11, 14), to be known even by his adversaries. (Isa 64:2) The name was in fact known and used by pagan nations both in pre-Common Era times and in the early centuries of the Common Era. (The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1976, Vol. XII, p. 119) Another claim is that the purpose was to protect the name from use in magical rites. If so, this was poor reasoning, as it is obvious that the more mysterious the name became through disuse the more it would suit the purposes of practicers of magic. |
Post by: afon on July 29, 2004, 01:02:00 PM
Post by: Baner on July 29, 2004, 01:53:00 PM
BigMike, Christians have been split for centuries now, and for those who believe in evolution, aren't true christians. The Bible states of creation, and for those who ignore it aren't true followers.
Post by: jesusphreak on July 29, 2004, 01:57:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| BigMike, Christians have been split for centuries now, and for those who believe in evolution, aren't true christians. The Bible states of creation, and for those who ignore it aren't true followers. |
That's ridiculous.
The Bible says, "All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved".
It doesn't say, "All who believe in creationism will be saved".
Post by: Baner on July 29, 2004, 02:30:00 PM
Post by: nemt on July 29, 2004, 03:15:00 PM
| QUOTE (BigMitch @ Jul 28 2004, 05:04 PM) |
| I am a Jehovah's Witness and for the record we do believe in Jesus but that he is not God but his son. |
Happy birthday.
Post by: 67thRaptorBull on July 29, 2004, 04:22:00 PM
realistically, im methodist, but i stopped going to church and doing all of that 10 years ago
Post by: thomes08 on July 29, 2004, 04:48:00 PM
thomes08
Post by: BigMitch on July 29, 2004, 04:06:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| That's ridiculous. The Bible says, "All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved". It doesn't say, "All who believe in creationism will be saved" |
That doesn't sound stupid to you?
"All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved"
Whats is the lords name then?
That Scripture is from Romans 10:
| QUOTE |
| 11 For the Scripture says: "None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him. 13 For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." 14 However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: "How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!" |
Thats is why we Jehovah's Witnesses go to your house.
| QUOTE |
| Happy birthday. |
You must have said that just because you know I don't celebrate birth days! Not even Jesus "birth day". For one thing in the Bible it stated that when Jesus was born shepherds were sleeping out of doors to watch over their herds. They only did that in the warmer months of the year, not in winter! December 23-25 ( I don't even know when christmas is) was all ready a time of a pagan festival and later on the false religious leaders made it into a "christian" holiday. Plus Jesus never said to celebrate his birth day.
But he did tell us to keep doing something in remembrance of him. and that is the remembrance of his death, or the "Lords evening meal", or passover. So once a year we do that, at the proper time.
I don't have time right now but I can post scriptures if you want.
Post by: nemt on July 29, 2004, 06:41:00 PM
Then again, your religion is pretty looney anyway.
Post by: BigMitch on July 30, 2004, 03:26:00 PM
Tell me what you think I believe.
Not found on the bible? Then why are we the only people that do as it says in Matthew 28
"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
That was from the New International Version. The one we use is called "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" the only difference in mine from that is "to the conclusion of the system of things".
So you speak Greek. I mean you must right? You arent just going by what your Bible says?
Here are a few translations:
58Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!" from the New Living Translation
58 Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.' from the Worldwide English
58 Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existance I have been" NWT
I AM is not a name!
What god said to Moses after he ask what to say to the sons of Israel if they ask his name: 14At this God said to Moses: "I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE." And he added: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, 'I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.' That was from the translation I use at home.
The Contemporary English Version says this in a footnote: The Hebrew text has " Yahweh," which is usually translated "LORD" in the CEV. Since it seems related to the word translated "I am," it may mean "I am the one who is" or "I will be what I will be" or "I am the one who brings into being."
That brings us back to What I posted before:
| QUOTE |
| JEHOVAH (Je·ho´vah) [the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wah´ (become); meaning "He Causes to Become"]. The personal name of God. (Isa 42:8; 54:5) Though Scripturally designated by such descriptive titles as "God," "Sovereign Lord," "Creator," "Father," "the Almighty," and "the Most High," his personality and attributes-who and what he is-are fully summed up and expressed only in this personal name.-Ps 83:18. Correct Pronunciation of the Divine Name. "Jehovah" is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, although "Yahweh" is favored by most Hebrew scholars. The oldest Hebrew manuscripts present the name in the form of four consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammaton (from Greek te·tra-, meaning "four," and gram´ma, "letter"). These four letters (written from right to left) are ???? and may be transliterated into English as YHWH (or, JHVH). |
So the translation Yahweh or the English pronunciation Jehovah literly means: "He Causes to Become" or "I am the one who brings into being" Not "I AM". That is part of a sentance or and introduction " Hi I am Mitch".
Plus what about the scripures that said Jesus was the son of God like: After Jesus was baptized at Matthew 3:17 "Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: 'This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.'"
Or John 3:16: For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. 18 He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. 19
But you being a "jesusphreak" all ready knew that right?
There is so much more I could show you, and from any Bible you want. But I think it would be a wast of my time to get you to reson.
So for you sake, I'd really do some study on Jehovah's Witnesses and what we (i.e. I) believe and what Christianity based on the Bible really believes.
You can do that here: http://www.watchtowe...=article_03.htm
| QUOTE |
| It was just a joke, don't take it too seriously, like you seem to take your religion. |
Arent you ment to take your religion seriously! Its a way of life not a just Sunday thing.
| QUOTE |
| I'm pretty sure Jesus, and furthermore, God wouldn't be against you celebrating something unrelated to himself (ie: your own birthday). |
Well if Jesus wanted us to celebrate his birthday he would have told us in the Bible. And why celebrate mine, I'm not more important the Jesus! And its my choice. I still get gifts throughout the year, and I'm going to have graduation party soon. So I'm not really missing out on anything.
Post by: jesusphreak on July 30, 2004, 04:12:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Matthew 28 "19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." |
That's funny that you guys are the only ones that do that....
Because actually right now I'm living in South Dallas, helping the poor and drug addicted and telling them about Jesus Christ. Guess what, i actually preached a sermon last night, and I talked to a guy afterwords who wants to get baptized.
| QUOTE |
That was from the New International Version. The one we use is called "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" the only difference in mine from that is "to the conclusion of the system of things". |
Only in this verse. But if the difference between this verse and the one in the NIV is that different, how different must the whole BIBLE be???
| QUOTE |
So you speak Greek. I mean you must right? You arent just going by what your Bible says? |
That's funny, because one of the missionaries on my team took Greek as a major......Oh, and he speaks German.....
| QUOTE |
I AM is not a name! |
It's not?
| QUOTE |
| What god said to Moses after he ask what to say to the sons of Israel if they ask his name: 14At this God said to Moses: "I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE." And he added: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, 'I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.' That was from the translation I use at home. |
And this is exactly what Christ said. He said, before Abraham was born, "I AM".
If he said anything less than this, the Jews wouldn't accuse him of blasphemy and attempt to stone him.....
| QUOTE |
(Je·ho´vah) [the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wah´ (become); meaning "He Causes to Become"]. The personal name of God. (Isa 42:8; 54:5) Though Scripturally designated by such descriptive titles as "God," "Sovereign Lord," "Creator," "Father," "the Almighty," and "the Most High," his personality and attributes-who and what he is-are fully summed up and expressed only in this personal name.-Ps 83:18. Correct Pronunciation of the Divine Name. "Jehovah" is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, although "Yahweh" is favored by most Hebrew scholars. The oldest Hebrew manuscripts present the name in the form of four consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammaton (from Greek te·tra-, meaning "four," and gram´ma, "letter"). These four letters (written from right to left) are ???? and may be transliterated into English as YHWH (or, JHVH). |
Yes, but what is incorrect about this, is in translation from Hebrew, there are no vowels. Jehovah is not Hebrew. YHWH is an accurate translation, but Jehovah is a mistranslation that originally comes from German.
| QUOTE |
| So the translation Yahweh or the English pronunciation Jehovah literly means: "He Causes to Become" or "I am the one who brings into being" Not "I AM". That is part of a sentance or and introduction " Hi I am Mitch". |
"I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE"
this is the same thing as "I AM". We are argueing about translations. These can all be translated differently, but what it comes down to is Jesus calling himself God and not just a son. Again, I repeat, if Jesus had said anything less, he would not have been accused of blasphemy and almost stoned.
| QUOTE |
| Plus what about the scripures that said Jesus was the son of God like: After Jesus was baptized at Matthew 3:17 "Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: 'This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.'" Or John 3:16: For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. 18 He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. 19 |
I don't doubt nor disagree that the Bible calls Jesus, God's son. But he is not literally God's son. It's the only way we can understand it in reference to God being a father.
In the same vein that you are using,
"For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." - John 5:18
This verse right here has Jesus calling himself Son, but implying that he was God. Straight from the Bible....
Not only this, but Jesus's actions such as forgiving sins, healing, etc....were thought to the Jews of the day as things that only God could do.
| QUOTE |
But you being a "jesusphreak" all ready knew that right? |
Nice cheapshot. :/
| QUOTE |
So for you sake, I'd really do some study on Jehovah's Witnesses and what we (i.e. I) believe and what Christianity based on the Bible really believes. You can do that here: http://www.watchtowe...=article_03.htm |
I really am not interested. I know what the Bible teaches. According to the Bible, it is the Word of God. That's all I need to know. I don't need the Watchtower to tell me how I must interpret or see the Bible...
I take instruction, but I am not obligated to follow any group's interpretation.
BTW, something to chew on:
Remember Deut. 18:22, "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." If someone makes a false prophecy, and they have claimed to be a prophet of God, then they are false prophets and are not to be listened to.
Do the Witnesses claim to be the prophet of God? Yes, they do.
In 1972 the Jehovah's Witness Watchtower claimed to be the prophet of God.
IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET" -- "So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses...Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it." The Watchtower, 4/1/72, p. 197. (See Deut. 18:21)
1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874," Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 4, page 621.
1899 "...the battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." The Time Is at Hand, page 101 (1908 edition).
1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873." The Time Is at Hand, page ii, (forward).
1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 89.
1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914." The Watchtower 9/1/22, page 262.
1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, page 106 4/1/23.
1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year." The Watchtower, 1/1/25, page. 3.
1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work." The Watchtower, Sept, 1925 page 262.
1926 "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." The Watchtower, page 232.
1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time...and they also learned to quit fixing dates." Vindication, page 338.
1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon." The Watchtower, 9/15/41, page 288.
1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them." Awake, 10/8/68.
1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" The Watchtower, 8/15/68, page 494.
If the organization so often in the past has been wrong, what keeps anything it says from being wrong?. Will what you are being taught now change also?
Post by: nemt on August 01, 2004, 03:37:00 PM
| QUOTE (BigMitch @ Jul 30 2004, 07:29 PM) |
| Well if Jesus wanted us to celebrate his birthday he would have told us in the Bible. And why celebrate mine, I'm not more important the Jesus! And its my choice. I still get gifts throughout the year, and I'm going to have graduation party soon. So I'm not really missing out on anything. |
Jesus never tells anyone to eat, and christians, including witnesses, don't feed jesus, but does that mean it's wrong to eat?
Post by: krustytheclown on August 01, 2004, 11:36:00 PM
You have to admit. Since 1914, the world has gotten worse than ever before. For the first time ever, the entire world was engulfed in a war. Twice. Over 45 million people died during the 2nd world war alone. Hundreds of millions of people have died in countless wars since then. Food shortages, ethnic cleansings, natural disasters, all have increased since 1914.
Sure, all of these things happened before. But it is very noticeable that since 1914, the number of these terrible events has skyrocketed.
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 02, 2004, 02:04:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Jehovah's Witnesses are generally known as a cult inside of Christianity. |
And Christianity should be considered a cult inside of society.
| QUOTE |
| Since 1914, the world has gotten worse than ever before. |
...where'd you get that date from. I mean, it's a lil specific, so it sounds... weird... Tha main reasons that there are more deaths in war is because there are more people in tha world, more people in organized countries/civilizations, and more killing technology (planes to go trans continental, guns, bombs, etc.). (All in relation to... let's say... tha 1400's(random date))| QUOTE | ||
It's not? |
It is?
(As a side note... translations are just... stupid. Take Nostradamus for example. Every one of his prophecies are able to be translated in several different ways. So don't take things so literal)
It's funny to watch(...read...) these different religious people fight over what tha bible does and doesn't state and is or isn't right according to tha bible. It's like tha Trekies and Star Wars people fighting over what tha messeges/philosophies behind tha movies were and what they say about how they should live their lives.
As for evolution... IT HAPPENED... now get over it! haha
... it's not tha first time tha bible (or vatican(sp?)... same thing though) has been proven wrong, and it DEFINATELY won't be tha last. 'Nuff said.*(If someone asked me what religion I was apart of, and had to call it something... I would say i was an athiest. But I consider myself reallist. Tha truth is I don't know and YOU DON'T EITHER! So stop talking as if ur higher among all just because you think being a christian, jahovah's, or whatever puts you above everyone. If, becuase I think this, I'm going to hell... I'll see you all there! Because from what I know of all tha religions, ur all hipocritical sinners
! hahaha I have nothing against religious people (cuz most my friends are... and I think that if religion is what you need to get by, then by all means, adopt it), I have a problem with people who think they are better than anyone who's not apart of their religion.)And to clear things up... Athiests don't believe in heaven or hell. For some reason, people have an idea in their heads that athiests are some kind of satanic devil warshippers that live lonely, depressed lives. Just because we don't have a "god" to turn to when we have problems, doesn't make us depressed goths. We don't rely on a mythical being to solve all our problems for us. I can handle my problems myself. I live a happy, enjoyable, stress free life. What's so great about "knowing" there's someone watching ur every move, every mistake, judging you about how you live your life? "Enlighten" me... ...actually no... don't enlighten me... I think I've heard enough.
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 02, 2004, 07:07:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| I can handle my problems myself. I live a happy, enjoyable, stress free life |
that was a good post, I found it really funny.
but as for what you said there, I would guess you suppose what Theist's beleive God to be a crutch who puts out love love looove 24/7 and doesn't care when we mess up, forgives always and is never angry. Well, wouldn't it be a shock if you were to be enlightened to the fact that he is a vengeful supernatural being? We all deserve death and I know that, ...and has any one ever said to you they are better, because they have religion and you do not? But is clear you do have a system of beleifs (religion) even athiesm can be classified as a religion. Nuff said.
Mr. Chips
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 02, 2004, 11:51:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 2 2004, 07:10 PM) |
| ...and has any one ever said to you they are better, because they have religion and you do not? |
From what I understand of the christian religion, and what was said to me by a pastor(sp?), if you are not christian, you will go to hell... meaning if you are christian, you are better than anyone who isn't. (Although I guess ur supposed to be able to ask for forgiveness after you die, then everything is alright... a lil odd lol) That's where I get that from.
| QUOTE |
| But is clear you do have a system of beleifs (religion) even athiesm can be classified as a religion. |
I don't have a system of beliefs. I told you that I don't know anything, and you don't either. I go by facts that are presented to me. Not stuff out of a book that was written 2000 years ago. (It can't even exactly be proven that it was written back then... not arguing that it wasn't... just saying... or maybe it can hahaha... i dunno. I guess someone point me to a place that does) If I was presented proof of what is stated in tha bible is true, then my thoughts would change on things because I (unlike most religious people) have a pretty open mind when it comes to things like this. It just so happens that tha facts of science out weigh tha statements in tha bible.
EDIT: and I wasn't arguing that Atheism wasn't a religion, I was saying that if I had ta choose a religion, that's what I would call myself.
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 03, 2004, 09:11:00 PM
| QUOTE (owtlaw333) |
| I don't have a system of beliefs. I told you that I don't know anything, and you don't either. |
that's close to the truth. But not correct.
we know very little about things there is to know. Yet we still know certain things, so it's incorrect to say everyone individually knows nothing. Still I am sure some new-age loonies agree with you. It's like a statement such as we are not really here, we only THINK we are here
...
we are not in the matrix, ok?
lol
Post by: LepPpeR on August 03, 2004, 09:14:00 PM
I have only been to Church like 3 times so I do not know what it makes me. Not a real faith loving family.
Post by: xFusioNx on August 04, 2004, 01:14:00 AM
Think with your own mind instead of someone elses bullshit.
Believe what YOU believe, not what someone has engrained in your mind since you were young.
OH and on a side note, I was just in hell for the past hour looking for the Soul Cube, and let me tell ya. It aint purty.
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 04, 2004, 01:29:00 AM
| QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 3 2004, 09:14 PM) | ||
that's close to the truth. But not correct. we know very little about things there is to know. Yet we still know certain things, so it's incorrect to say everyone individually knows nothing. Still I am sure some new-age loonies agree with you. It's like a statement such as we are not really here, we only THINK we are here ... we are not in the matrix, ok? lol |
Yeah... cuz I meant it in a literal sense [sarcastic]. I meant that you don't KNOW that there's a god... just like I don't KNOW there isn't.
I'm keeping this to a friendly, kind discussion... but if you wanna be a dick about, I can easily do tha same
| QUOTE |
| ooh gota change the story again |
Tha thing is, is that every religion does that... always changing their story
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 04, 2004, 01:40:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Yeah... cuz I meant it in a literal sense [sarcastic]. |
How am i supposed to know you were being sarcastic?
| QUOTE |
| I'm keeping this to a friendly, kind discussion... but if you wanna be a dick about, I can easily do tha same |
I wasn't being a dick about it. I can't determine your manner of speech the same as you can't assume mine. Unless you posess the power to read a persons emotion through text, that is. [sarcasm as well]
| QUOTE |
| I meant that you don't KNOW that there's a god... just like I don't KNOW there isn't. |
if that is what you meant, why say the opposite? We can't read your mind and you make yourself look misinformed in the process.
Then nemt shows up and flames you, LOL
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 04, 2004, 01:45:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Still I am sure some new-age loonies agree with you. |
...Sounds kinda dick to me. I don't know how you can take that in a friendly way.
| QUOTE |
| if that is what you meant, why say the opposite? |
Opposite of what?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 04, 2004, 01:48:00 AM
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 04, 2004, 01:56:00 AM
| QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 4 2004, 01:51 AM) |
| I didn't call you a new age loonie. Let's face it there are crackpots all around us, and I wasn't calling you one, nor calling you a dick like you just called me. I was having an appropriate discussion. and it's not completely opposite, but you said something which contrasted your original statement, I could go back and grab all the quotes but people can see it for themselves. P.S. I'm willing to argue but not name-call |
I wasn't calling you a dick, I was saying if you wanted to act like one, I could too... but you obviously don't. And I never contradicted myself. I said I have my beliefs, but tha truth is, I don't know. There's nothing contradicting. It's just looking at it from a realistic point of view.
Post by: rms2001 on August 04, 2004, 03:35:00 AM
Keep up the good work and dont let these unbelievers discourage you. Stand by the truth and keep answering all their questions, and know Jehovah will guide you thru it.
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 04, 2004, 11:37:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Been around Whiteness for most of my 19 years. |
Post by: rms2001 on August 04, 2004, 12:12:00 PM
Post by: krustytheclown on August 04, 2004, 01:07:00 PM
| QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 4 2004, 01:43 AM) |
| haha it cracks me up that a jehova witness and a mormon are bashing each other when thet both have so many issues. For one Jehova witnesses believe jesus isnt god when the bible clearly states he is and then we have mormons who believe all sorta crazy things. I mean they believe that blacks were men who became corrupt. Thats racsim! and so when people get mad what do they do? they change the story and make it ok to be black but wont let them preach haha racsim again! ooh gota change the story again funny mormons. Im a baptist but mainly i dont set my believes on what baptist believe. I believe the bible and that jesus died for our sins enough said. |
Ok, where in the bible does it "clearly" say that Jesus is God?
Post by: rms2001 on August 04, 2004, 01:29:00 PM
| QUOTE (xbox beat box @ Aug 4 2004, 02:19 PM) |
| I had to take another look... Whiteness...what the fuck does that mean? |
Just a type-o. I typed it at like 4am, Im allowed to make a mistake
Should have been Witness
| QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 4 2004, 01:43 AM) |
| IFor one Jehova witnesses believe jesus isnt god when the bible clearly states he is |
I'm wondering the same thing as krusty here. The Bible never says Jesus is God, it says he is the son of God. And I don't think a Witness would tell you different b/c its just not true.
Post by: rms2001 on August 04, 2004, 05:03:00 PM
Matthew 3:17 says: Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved."
It dose not say: Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: This is one of my three sides, the beloved Son, whom I have approved. No, it says he is HIS SON.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are in no way one in the same, and the Bible dose not say this any where in it. It clearly says they are not one in the same.
Jesus was created first. Every thing was created thru Jesus, thats also why he is referred to as the Master worker. Also since Jesus was created be for all things, he was perfect. This is why Jesus gave his life, to give humans the opportunity to take back what Adam has lost, perfection, and ever lasting life on a paradise Earth.
John 3:16: For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
Post by: krustytheclown on August 04, 2004, 10:14:00 PM
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 04, 2004, 10:28:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| You forget to type out a message there Chips? |
I was trying to avoid being a "dick" and so just typed nothing
I have no clue how that could be funny unless JW's were white supremacist.
Post by: rms2001 on August 04, 2004, 11:35:00 PM
| QUOTE (Owtlaw333 @ Aug 2 2004, 03:07 AM) |
| ...where'd you get that date from. I mean, it's a lil specific, so it sounds... weird... |
Reading back on this post, I though I'd answer this question. Its a very common one really. One I asked when I was studying, and one I go over alot.
The year 1914 is more than just a date, its the year Jesus was made King in Heaven.
-----
So Gods rulership, as represented by the tree, was cut down in 607 B.C.E. No longer was there a government to represent Gods rulership in the earth. Thus, in 607 B.C.E. a period of time began that Jesus Christ later referred to as the appointed times of the nations, or, the times of the Gentiles. During these appointed times God did not have a government to represent his rulership in the earth.
What was to happen at the end of these appointed times of the nations? Jehovah was to give the power to rule to the One who has the legal right. This One is Jesus Christ. So if we can find out when the appointed times of the nations end, we will know when Christ begins to rule as king.
According to Daniel chapter four, these appointed times would be seven times. Daniel shows that there would be seven times during which Gods rulership, as represented by the tree, would not be in operation over the earth. (Daniel 4:16, 23) How long are these seven times?
In Revelation chapter 12, verses 6 and 14, we learn that 1,260 days are equal to a time [that is, 1 time] and times [that is, 2 times] and half a time. That is a total of 3 1/2 times. So a time would be equal to 360 days. Therefore, seven times would be 7 times 360, or 2,520 days. Now if we count a day for a year, according to a Bible rule, the seven times equal 2,520 years.Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6.
We have already learned that the appointed times of the nations began in the year 607 B.C.E. So by counting 2,520 years from that date, we come down to 1914 C.E. That is the year these appointed times ended. Millions of people still living remember the things that happened in 1914. In that year, World War I began a period of terrible trouble that has continued to our day. This means that Jesus Christ began to rule as king of Gods heavenly government in 1914. And because the Kingdom has already started its rule, how timely it is that we pray for it to come and wipe Satans wicked system of things from the earth!Matthew 6:10; Daniel 2:44.
-----
Thats how the year 1914 came about, any more questions?
Post by: thomes08 on August 05, 2004, 01:07:00 AM
thomes08
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 05, 2004, 01:09:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Now if we count a day for a year, |
Why are you counting a day for a year? Where did that come from?
Post by: rms2001 on August 05, 2004, 11:15:00 AM
| QUOTE (thomes08 @ Aug 5 2004, 02:10 AM) |
| hahaha i mean i don't buy the whole jesus was better than us thing. Let alone that jesus was crowned king of "heaven". Belive what you want but that made me laugh and i only read down to that line thomes08 |
Just keep laughing... If you were smart, you would have read the whole post.
| QUOTE (Owtlaw333 @ Aug 5 2004, 02:12 AM) |
| Why are you counting a day for a year? Where did that come from? |
In prophecy a day is at times used to stand for one year. This can be noted at Ezekiel 4:6: You must lie upon your right side in the second case, and you must carry the error of the house of Judah forty days. A day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you.
Also Numbers 14:34: By the number of the days that YOU spied out the land, forty days, a day for a year, a day for a year, YOU will answer for YOUR errors forty years, as YOU must know what my being estranged means.
Post by: Colonel32 on August 05, 2004, 10:48:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Is this truly and organization that God is using? Or could it be, again, that as in time of old, Satan is again twisting true Christianity to distort God's purpose? |
So Satan is behind the Jehova's witness? Is that actually what your saying?
Is the Devil actually waging a secret war on Christians with the constant barrage of ringing doorbells and bad suits of the Jehova?? No one told me 
Post by: jesusphreak on August 05, 2004, 11:11:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| So Satan is behind the Jehova's witness? Is that actually what your saying? Is the Devil actually waging a secret war on Christians with the constant barrage of ringing doorbells and bad suits of the Jehova?? No one told me |
Nice sarcasm, but I don't necessarily disagree. I don't think it's any secret war, though, I think it's something that's actively going on.
Something to think about is this:
After the birth of Christianity, every single major religion that has been formed has been some form of a corrupted Christianity. Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, even Bahaism. Every modern day religion relates to Jesus Christ in some way. What they don't all relate to, is him being the same person. They all have a different idea of him.
It's almost like, predating Christianity, idol worship and different forms of monotheism and polytheism ran rampant, but after the advent of Christ, Satan realized that he could never win by making a religion or a person better than Christ (Christ is the most perfect person anyone could ever think of), but he knew that if he twisted the truth, the truth would be lost. I think that's whats going on.
Colonel, I jsut realized what your avatar was. I saw the Best of Will Ferrell the other night. I find the Old Prospector, Devil, and "GET OFF THE SHED!!!" skits absolutely hilarious.....
Anyway....peace out and may God bless you. And I mean that. I just wish that you could come to understand what he's done for you. Anyway....
Post by: jesusphreak on August 05, 2004, 11:22:00 PM
For God so loved
Im sure most of you have heard a single verse in the Bible a million times. John 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever shall believe in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Honestly, this verse doesnt mean a whole lot to me. Ive heard it over and over, and Im sure you guys have, too.
What I want to know, really, is what this verse means when it says, For God so loved . What is this love that God, a God who created and made everything would be willing, even desire to come down to earth and die for us?
In Luke 15, Jesus tells the story of a man and his two sons. When both sons are grown, the youngest tells his Father, Give me my share of the inheritance. Now, youve got to understand what this son is asking. Hes telling his Father, I wish you were dead, I want my inheritance due to me upon your death, right now. What a slap in the face? I mean, hes telling his Father, the one who gave him life and raised him, to roll over and die.
Well, the Father does something you wouldnt really expect. He doesnt tell him no, he doesnt lock him up, or beat him, he just says, If thats really what you want and splits his estate between the two sons.
So, the younger son, having gotten his way with his Father, heads off to a foreign country and wastes all of his money on what the Bible calls, wild living. Now, we can only imagine what that means, but its pretty obvious that he wasnt providing for a family. After awhile, he has nothing left. Nothing. And wouldnt you know, just his luck, about this time, a famine hits the land and nobody has anything to eat. The son is forced to sell himself off feeding pigs just so he can survive. Hes busy feeding these pigs and watching them eat all of this slop, and the Bible says, he longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating. This man, who was so bold as to take his inheritance from his father, and so youthful and wealthy as to spend all of his inheritance in a foreign land is now at the point where he is desiring pigs slop. After sitting there and thinking for awhile, he realizes, The servants in my Fathers house have everything they need, and here I am, longing to just eat anything at all. This doesnt make a lot of sense to him. He decides to return home and tell his dad, Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be your son; make me like one of your hired men. So, he sets off home not expecting much than perhaps a little food and a life of service under his other brother.
Well, the Bible says that the Father saw his son a long way off, and was filled with compassion for him, ran to his son, threw his arms around him, and kissed him.
The son, who was so bold as to leave his father a few years older has the humility to say those simple words, "Father, Ive sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son, make me like one of your hired men.
Does the Father accept his request like he had accepted that request only a few years before? Infact, he tells one of the servants, Kill the fatted calf, put on his finger a ring and on his feet sandals, and give him the best robe, for this son of mine who was lost is now found, he was blind and can now see.
How great is the Fathers love? Not only does he welcome the son back, but he celebrates with him and his entire house, even when the son tells him that hes wasted everything. This is what we have to understand. We all are that son. We all have gone off and wasted what God has given us. Some of us actually have wasted everything of value we had on things that never could satisfy. Some of us have given our lives and our talents to things that really werent worth it. No matter what weve done exactly, weve all slapped God, our Father, in the face and said, I wish you were dead. I want my inheritance. Weve all pursued our own ways. Yet even now, even when weve rejected and wasted everything that our Father gave to us, hes not only waiting for us, hes running towards us, seeing us from a far way off and longing to put his arms around us. He loves us that much. He loves us so much, that he being God of all of the universe, decided and even wanted to come down and die on a cross for us. This is what the Bible means when it says, For God so loved In fact, the Bible says, Gods love is shown in this; that while we were still yet sinners, Christ died for us.
He didnt just wait around and tell us to find our way back home. He ran to us, and he died for us. Thats what makes what Jesus did so special. We dont have to do anything special or be anything special for him to love us, he just does. He died on that cross to let us know that no matter what weve wasted, or who weve disappointed, or what weve done, that he has forgiven it all and is longing to just see us again. All he needs us to do is to start walking home like that prodigal son did, to say, Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you, I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired men.
But once we do that, does he make us like one of his hired men? No, he loves us, and he treats us like a favorite son. He gives us good things and gives us another chance at being who he raised us to be. All he wants us to do is to come home.
Post by: Foe-hammer on August 06, 2004, 12:10:00 AM
Post by: krustytheclown on August 06, 2004, 01:10:00 AM
| QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 5 2004, 11:36 PM) |
| That doesn't make any sense at all. Did you even read my post? The Watchtower Magazine (supposedly the prophet of God and the organization that guides all witnesses) started setting dates in the 1870s, early 1900s, and continued after 1914. How do they even validate that date? ....... |
Where are you getting all these watchtower qoutes? Apostate Jehovah's witnesses sites or something? Or some other site that likes to twist the truth and make witnesses look like some crazy cult?
BTW, what religion are you?
Post by: Foe-hammer on August 06, 2004, 12:04:00 PM
| QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 6 2004, 06:08 PM) |
| That's not all it is saying, though. Christ makes it very clear that it is a story about him, about our Father. |
And hence why i termed it parable.
Post by: krustytheclown on August 06, 2004, 01:19:00 PM
| QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 6 2004, 12:08 PM) |
| That's not all it is saying, though. Christ makes it very clear that it is a story about him, about our Father. They aren't some crazy cult? Is this important? |
Why can't you just answer my question, would that be too hard for you?
You're reasoning on witnesses being a cult is just retarded.
Post by: AkumAPRIME on August 06, 2004, 01:33:00 PM
I know that the debate will rage on, but please at least include your religious preference, if you haven't already, taht's why I made this thing.
maybe Ill make two more with an expanded list of denominations.
And I AM is a name if I want it to be. If I name my son I AM, huess what his name is...?!
I AM.
what else did I see in here that was just ridiculous? There were some other good posts too.
All religion having been a cult at one point or another, that all religions have and will continue to make mistakes...
Damn I'm falling into the debate hole.... Just list your religious preference.
Post by: jesusphreak on August 06, 2004, 03:47:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| "From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago..." The Watchtower, August 15, 1981. |
I thought that this was an interesting quote straight from the Watchtower. Seems to really discourage independent thinking.
Post by: rms2001 on August 06, 2004, 04:55:00 PM
Post by: rms2001 on August 06, 2004, 05:04:00 PM
This is not false, and I'm sorry if thats not what *Christians believe or teach*, they got it wrong.
The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58) John 1:1, 2 gives the heavenly name of the one who became Jesus, saying: In the beginning the Word [Gr., Lo´gos] was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god [was divine, AT; Mo; or of divine being, Böhmer; Stage (both German)]. This one was in the beginning with God. Since Jehovah is eternal and had no beginning (Ps 90:2; Re 15:3), the Words being with God from the beginning must here refer to the beginning of Jehovahs creative works. This is confirmed by other texts identifying Jesus as the firstborn of all creation, the beginning of the creation by God. (Col 1:15; Re 1:1; 3:14) Thus the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as Gods first creation, his firstborn Son.
That Jehovah was truly the Father or Life-Giver to this firstborn Son and, hence, that this Son was actually a creature of God is evident from Jesus own statements. He pointed to God as the Source of his life, saying, I live because of the Father. According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice.Joh 6:56, 57.
If the estimates of modern-day scientists as to the age of the physical universe are anywhere near correct, Jesus existence as a spirit creature began thousands of millions of years prior to the creation of the first human. (Compare Mic 5:2.) This firstborn spirit Son was used by his Father in the creation of all other things. (Joh 1:3; Col 1:16, 17) This would include the millions of other spirit sons of Jehovah Gods heavenly family (Da 7:9, 10; Re 5:11), as well as the physical universe and the creatures originally produced within it. Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said: Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. (Ge 1:26) All these other created things were not only created through him but also for him, as Gods Firstborn and the heir of all things.Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.
Not only do they believe that Jesus was the first of created thing, they believe that CHrist on earth was only a perfect man, not God in the flesh.
That makes no since. If Jesus was the Son of God, how could God be him on earth?
| QUOTE |
| Why do some Bible translations refer to Jesus as God, while others say he was a god? |
Some translations render John 1:1 as saying: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Literally the Greek text reads: In beginning was the word, and the word was toward the god, and god was the word. The translator must supply capitals as needed in the language into which he translates the text. It is clearly proper to capitalize God in translating the phrase the god, since this must identify the Almighty God with whom the Word was. But the capitalizing of the word god in the second case does not have the same justification.
The New World Translation renders this text: In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. True, there is no indefinite article (corresponding to a or an) in the original Greek text. But this does not mean one should not be used in translation, for Koine, or common Greek, had no indefinite article. Hence, throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures, translators are obliged to use the indefinite article or not according to their understanding of the meaning of the text. All English translations of those Scriptures do contain the indefinite article hundreds of times; yet most do not use it at John 1:1. Nevertheless, its use in the rendering of this text has sound basis.
First, it should be noted that the text itself shows that the Word was with God, hence could not be God, that is, be the Almighty God. (Note also vs 2, which would be unnecessary if vs 1 actually showed the Word to be God.) Additionally, the word for god (Gr., theos´) in its second occurrence in the verse is significantly without the definite article the (Gr., ho). Regarding this fact, Ernst Haenchen, in a commentary on the Gospel of John (chapters 1-6), stated: [theos´] and [ho theos´] (god, divine and the God) were not the same thing in this period. . . . In fact, for the . . . Evangelist, only the Father was God ([ho theos´]; cf. 17:3); the Son was subordinate to him (cf. 14:28). But that is only hinted at in this passage because here the emphasis is on the proximity of the one to the other . . . . It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ . . . Thus, in both Philippians and John 1:1 it is not a matter of a dialectical relationship between two-in-one, but of a personal union of two entities.John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110.
After giving as a translation of John 1:1c and divine (of the category divinity) was the Word, Haenchen goes on to state: In this instance, the verb was ([en]) simply expresses predication. And the predicate noun must accordingly be more carefully observed: [theos´] is not the same thing as [ho theos´] (divine is not the same thing as God). (pp. 110, 111) Elaborating on this point, Philip B. Harner brought out that the grammatical construction in John 1:1 involves an anarthrous predicate, that is, a predicate noun without the definite article the, preceding the verb, which construction is primarily qualitative in meaning and indicates that the logos has the nature of theos. He further stated: In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun [theos´] cannot be regarded as definite. (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Other translators, also recognizing that the Greek term has qualitative force and describes the nature of the Word, therefore render the phrase: the Word was divine.AT; Sd; compare Mo; see NW appendix, p. 1579.
The Hebrew Scriptures are consistently clear in showing that there is but one Almighty God, the Creator of all things and the Most High, whose name is Jehovah. (Ge 17:1; Isa 45:18; Ps 83:18) For that reason Moses could say to the nation of Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force. (De 6:4, 5) The Christian Greek Scriptures do not contradict this teaching that had been accepted and believed by Gods servants for thousands of years, but instead they support it. (Mr 12:29; Ro 3:29, 30; 1Co 8:6; Eph 4:4-6; 1Ti 2:5) Jesus Christ himself said, The Father is greater than I am and referred to the Father as his God, the only true God. (Joh 14:28; 17:3; 20:17; Mr 15:34; Re 1:1; 3:12) On numerous occasions Jesus expressed his inferiority and subordination to his Father. (Mt 4:9, 10; 20:23; Lu 22:41, 42; Joh 5:19; 8:42; 13:16) Even after Jesus ascension into heaven his apostles continued to present the same picture.1Co 11:3; 15:20, 24-28; 1Pe 1:3; 1Jo 2:1; 4:9, 10.
These facts give solid support to a translation such as the Word was a god at John 1:1. The Words preeminent position among Gods creatures as the Firstborn, the one through whom God created all things, and as Gods Spokesman, gives real basis for his being called a god or mighty one. The Messianic prophecy at Isaiah 9:6 foretold that he would be called Mighty God, though not the Almighty God, and that he would be the Eternal Father of all those privileged to live as his subjects. The zeal of his own Father, Jehovah of armies, would accomplish this. (Isa 9:7) Certainly if Gods Adversary, Satan the Devil, is called a god (2Co 4:4) because of his dominance over men and demons (1Jo 5:19; Lu 11:14-18), then with far greater reason and propriety is Gods firstborn Son called a god, the only-begotten god as the most reliable manuscripts of John 1:18 call him.
When charged by opposers with making himself a god, Jesus reply was: Is it not written in your Law, I said: You are gods? If he called gods those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am Gods Son? (Joh 10:31-37) Jesus there quoted from Psalm 82, in which human judges, whom God condemned for not executing justice, were called gods. (Ps 82:1, 2, 6, 7) Thus, Jesus showed the unreasonableness of charging him with blasphemy for stating that he was, not God, but Gods Son.
This charge of blasphemy arose as a result of Jesus having said: I and the Father are one. (Joh 10:30) That this did not mean that Jesus claimed to be the Father or to be God is evident from his reply, already partly considered. The oneness to which Jesus referred must be understood in harmony with the context of his statement. He was speaking of his works and his care of the sheep who would follow him. His works, as well as his words, demonstrated that there was unity, not disunity and disharmony, between him and his Father, a point his reply went on to emphasize. (Joh 10:25, 26, 37, 38; compare Joh 4:34; 5:30; 6:38-40; 8:16-18.) As regards his sheep, he and his Father were likewise at unity in their protecting such sheeplike ones and leading them to everlasting life. (Joh 10:27-29; compare Eze 34:23, 24.) Jesus prayer on behalf of the unity of all his disciples, including future ones, shows that the oneness, or union, between Jesus and his Father was not as to identity of person but as to purpose and action. In this way Jesus disciples could all be one, just as he and his Father are one.Joh 17:20-23.
In harmony with this, Jesus, responding to a question by Thomas, said: If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him, and, in answer to a question from Philip, Jesus added: He that has seen me has seen the Father also. (Joh 14:5-9) Again, Jesus following explanation shows that this was so because he faithfully represented his Father, spoke the Fathers words, and did the Fathers works. (Joh 14:10, 11; compare Joh 12:28, 44-49.) It was on this same occasion, the night of his death, that Jesus said to these very disciples: The Father is greater than I am.Joh 14:28.
The disciples seeing the Father in Jesus can also be understood in the light of other Scriptural examples. Jacob, for instance, said to Esau: I have seen your face as though seeing Gods face in that you received me with pleasure. He said this because Esaus reaction had been in harmony with Jacobs prayer to God. (Ge 33:9-11; 32:9-12) After Gods interrogation of Job out of a windstorm had clarified that mans understanding, Job said: In hearsay I have heard about you, but now my own eye does see you. (Job 38:1; 42:5; see also Jg 13:21, 22.) The eyes of his heart had been enlightened. (Compare Eph 1:18.) That Jesus statement about seeing the Father was meant to be understood figuratively and not literally is evident from his own statement at John 6:45 as well as from the fact that John, long after Jesus death, wrote: No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.Joh 1:18; 1Jo 4:12.
1) The Bible nevers says *only* Witnesses will go to heaven. But 144,000 that were chosen to go to heaven.
A limited number of men and women will be resurrected to life in Heaven. As kings and priests with Jesus, they will share in undoing all the effects of death that mankind inherited from the first man, Adam. Only 144,000 will go to Heaven as stated in the book of Revelation. Rev 14:1 says And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion and with him the hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. Also backed up by, Rev 7:1
Rev 14:1 - This would be Jesus standing in Heaven with the selected 144,000 to co-rule paradise. Most of the people will be resurrected to a paradise earth. (Psalm 37:11, 29; Matt: 6:10)
2) Only those who believe explicitly what the Watchtower teaches will be going to heaven.
Where are you getting these twisted ideas?
3) Their overseeing organization (the Watchtower) is the only channel of God's truth. (differing in Christianity in that every single man, woman, child, and even outside forces can be a channel of God's truth)...
Not sure where your going with this one. Maybe if you elaborated more, some one mite be able to give your a striate answer.
4) good works are necessary for salvation
Ya, that makes alot of since. Of couse if you do what God has commanded you live in paradise. If you screw around and blow off what God wants us to do, what would make you think you have hope for "salvation"?
Outwardly similar to another religion without having it's genuine qualities.
Well maybe we have it right and every one else is a "cult". How can a group of people who up hold the Bible's teachings be considered a "cult"?
This is why I call it a cult. FOr the main reason being is that it distorts who Jesus Christ is (God in the flesh) and how man may be saved (not by God works but by trusting in God alone)
No, Witness do not distort who Jesus is. We teach the truth, that he was HIS SON.
krusty, any of this count as service time?
Post by: krustytheclown on August 06, 2004, 08:26:00 PM
They believe what they want to believe. No what the bibles tells us.
BTW, this fact that you are disagreeing with good works are necessary for salvation, is without a doubt, the single stupidest thing I have ever heard. Why should we be given the gift of everlasting life if we don't listen and do what god tells us?
Post by: rms2001 on August 06, 2004, 10:16:00 PM
| QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 6 2004, 04:50 PM) |
| I thought that this was an interesting quote straight from the Watchtower. Seems to really discourage independent thinking. |
You should have read the whole thing, not just in part.
Watchtower - August 15th, 1981 Serving Jehovah Shoulder to Shoulder
The paragraph you had quoted in part was #14
| QUOTE |
| Serving Jehovah Shoulder to Shoulder I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder.Zeph. 3:9. JEHOVAHS word of prophecy always comes unerringly to fulfillment. He himself tells us: So my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it. (Isa. 55:11) It has been just that way with so many of the details of Zephaniahs great prophecy. 2 For example, Zephaniah records, in turn, Jehovahs utterances of doom against the cities of Philistia, the nation of Cherethites, the land of the Philistines, and Moab and Ammon. (Zeph. 2:4-8) All those prophecies had remarkable fulfillment during the years and centuries that followed. Where, today, is the nation of Philistia, with its cities, and where are the dependent Cherethites? They are nonexistent. What of Moab and Ammon? The prophecy says: As I am alive, is the utterance of Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, Moab herself will become just like Sodom, and the sons of Ammon like Gomorrah, a place possessed by nettles, and a salt pit, and a desolate waste, even to time indefinite. (Zeph. 2:9) If you travel today through the Transjordan territories where the proud nations of Moab and Ammon once flourished, what do you find? Desolationeven as Jehovah foretold! History shows that Ethiopia also, along with Egypt, suffered at the hands of the Babylonian invaders.Zeph. 2:12. AN OBJECT OF ASTONISHMENT 3 Most astonishing is the fulfillment of Jehovahs utterance concerning Assyria and Nineveh. Zephaniah prophesied when Assyrias proud capital, Nineveh, was in the heyday of its glory, at least 15 years before that nation was toppled from its position as the second world power of Bible history. Whoever could have imagined such a thing? But Jehovah was against that nationalistic city of bloodshed. (Nah. 3:1, 5) Through Zephaniah he spoke of settling accounts with her, saying: He will stretch out his hand toward the north, and he will destroy Assyria. And he will make Nineveh a desolate waste, a waterless region like the wilderness. . . . This is the exultant city that was sitting in security, that was saying in her heart, I am, and there is nobody else. O how she has become an object of astonishment, a place for the wild animals to lie stretched out! Everyone passing along by her will whistle; he will wag his hand.Zeph. 2:13-15. 4 Impossible! people of that day would have said. Yet that same generation lived to see it! In 633 B.C.E. Nabopolassar of Babylon and Cyaxares the Mede besieged and captured Nineveh. The Babylonian Chronicles tell us: The great spoil of the city and temple they carried off and [turned] the city into a ruin-mound. So complete was the devastation of Nineveh that even its location became unknown for centuries. In the 1800s it was again identified, and the famous library of Ashurbanipal II was unearthed. But to this day the area remains a barren waste where flocks occasionally rest. How accurate the fulfillments of Jehovahs word of prophecy! 5 However, most importantly, that prophetic record carries a message for today. It serves as a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived. (1 Cor. 10:11, 12; Rom. 15:4; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17) It encourages us to avoid the pride, the indulgent pleasure-seeking, the materialistic thinking and violent dispositions that brought Gods judgment upon those nations. Also, we should remember that those prophecies are very much alive today, and that their climactic fulfillment hastens on. It is not for a mere historical record that Jehovah, the living God, has preserved them down to this day. Those ancient nations have their modern-day counterpart, particularly in the Assyria-like politico-military powers that boast in their armed might. Jehovah will assuredly take vengeance against all such opposers of his kingdom.Nah. 1:2; Zeph. 1:2, 9. WOE TO . . . THE OPPRESSIVE CITY! 6 Modern-day totalitarian, authoritarian governments closely parallel cruel Nineveh of the mighty Assyrian Empire. Yet Jehovah makes it plain that there is a part of the present world system of things that is even more reprehensible in his sight. What is that? 7 It is that part of the world that claims to be Gods own people, even as Judah and Jerusalem made that claim in Zephaniahs day. It professes to be Christian, and is known generally as Christendom. But its clergy have apostatized from the pure teachings of Gods Word, the Bible, and its nations and peoples have fallen from following the fine moral standards set out in that Word. Hence, Zephaniah himself now speaks out against that God-dishonoring city, saying: Woe to her that is rebelling and polluting herself, the oppressive city! She did not listen to a voice; she did not accept discipline. In Jehovah she did not trust. To her God she did not draw near. Jehovah has sent his witnesses throughout Christendom, to its cities and villages, from house to house. Morning by morning, they have declared his judgments. At daylight, his righteous requirements have been made clear. But Christendoms leaders and clergy have been insolent and have known no shame in their opposition to these messengers of the righteous Jehovah and his kingdom.Zeph. 3:1-5. 8 In support of his faithful prophet, the Sovereign Lord Jehovah now takes up the pronouncement of doom, enlarging it to include all the nations, and climaxing it with these words: Therefore keep yourselves in expectation of me, is the utterance of Jehovah, till the day of my rising up to the booty, for my judicial decision is to gather nations, for me to collect together kingdoms, in order to pour out upon them my denunciation, all my burning anger; for by the fire of my zeal all the earth will be devoured.Zeph. 3:6-8. 9 So the execution of Jehovahs judgment does not stop at the desolating of Christendom, whose religion must perish along with the entire world empire of false religion, described in the Bible as Babylon the Great. (Rev. 18:2-4) The day of his burning anger and of the fire of [his] zeal will remove all wickedness from the earth. (See also Isaiah 34:2-8; Jeremiah 25:32, 33.) How grateful we should be that this greatest tribulation of all time will be the last, according to Jesus own testimony at Matthew 24:21! It will have accomplished Jehovahs purpose in causing an outright extermination, like that of ancient Nineveh. Distress will not rise up a second time.Nah. 1:9; Dan. 12:1; Rev. 19:11-21. THE WAY OF ESCAPE 10 Is there a way of survival during this world calamity? Why, yes! In the very next words of the prophecy, Jehovah God himself shows what that way is. He says: For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder. (Zeph. 3:9) Whichever of the hundreds of national tongues they may use, the worldly nations make propaganda in a language that is detestable to Jehovah. Instead of Gods kingdom, they exalt their own nationalistic programs, trying to use a divided U.N. for selfish political ends. They reject Jehovahs kingdom by Christ Jesus. 11 What, then, is this change to a pure language? It is a turning to the message of truth, the refreshing good news, the pattern of healthful words, that speaks in praise of Jehovah and his righteous purposes by Christ Jesus. (2 Tim. 1:13) This pure language unifies them. And it testifies that, in the epoch-marking year 1914, the kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever. (Rev. 11:15) Taking this message upon their lips, true Christians worldwide call upon the name of Jehovah in dedication, harmoniously rendering him sacred service. As the only truly united people on earth, they go to the homes of the people, heralding forth the good news of Jehovahs established kingdom. Thus they serve Jehovah shoulder to shoulder. (Matt. 24:14; Rom. 12:1) Are you one who has thus separated yourself from the world, to serve God zealously in dedication to Him? It is by thus working along with Jehovahs organized people that you may get away safe.Joel 2:32; see also Hosea 14:1, 2; Hebrews 13:15. 12 The change to a pure language has been hard for some to make. It is not easy to come out of the world, with its easygoing, permissive ways, and to make the sacrifices necessary for calling upon the name of Jehovah. It has required our getting rid of wrong thoughts, bad habits and self-seeking, loose ways of life, in order to conform to the clean, worthwhile standards of Gods own people. (Eph. 4:17, 18, 29; 1 Pet. 4:3) It has required our giving proper recognition to the one organization that Jehovah is using in the earth today, and this by our associating with the faithful and discreet slave. It has required meekness, in our carefully examining Gods Word with the aid of that slaves publications, in order to fortify our faith.Matt. 24:45; Acts 17:11. 13 In serving Jehovah shoulder to shoulder, we need, as Zephaniah so often emphasizes, to cultivate the quality of meekness. When we make mistakes, as all imperfect humans do, let us be ready to acknowledge them, even as the faithful and discreet slave, made up of imperfect fleshly men, has had to make corrections. However, let us never be critical of the grand body of truth that Jehovah has built up among his united people over the past 100 years, and which, by correction and adjustment, has come to shine ever more brightly on the path of the righteous ones.Prov. 4:18. 14 From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovahs people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude. They do not want to serve shoulder to shoulder with the worldwide brotherhood. (Compare Ephesians 2:19-22.) Rather, they present a stubborn shoulder to Jehovahs words. (Zech. 7:11, 12) Reviling the pattern of the pure language that Jehovah has so graciously taught his people over the past century, these haughty ones try to draw the sheep away from the one international flock that Jesus has gathered in the earth. (John 10:7-10, 16) They try to sow doubts and to separate unsuspecting ones from the bounteous table of spiritual food spread at the Kingdom Halls of Jehovahs Witnesses, where truly there is nothing lacking. (Ps. 23:1-6) They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such Bible reading, they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendoms clergy were teaching 100 years ago, and some have even returned to celebrating Christendoms festivals again, such as the Roman Saturnalia of December 25! Jesus and his apostles warned against such lawless ones.Matt. 24:11-13; Acts 20:28-30; 2 Pet. 2:1, 22. 15 Through his prophet Zephaniah, Jehovah tells His people how He will dispose of those who shamelessly try to sow discord in His earthly organization, saying: I shall remove from the midst of you your haughtily exultant ones; and you will never again be haughty in my holy mountain. In happy contrast, Jehovah says: I shall certainly let remain in the midst of you a people humble and lowly, and they will actually take refuge in the name of Jehovah. (Zeph. 3:11, 12) Yes, these are the meek ones, who work shoulder to shoulder as they engage in the holy work of the good news. (Rom. 15:15, 16) They are not too proud to do the lowly work of calling from house to house after the pattern that Jesus disciples learned from the Master. (Matt. 10:5-13; Luke 9:2-6; Acts 5:42) Taking refuge in Jehovahs name, they proclaim that glorious name and his purpose to vindicate it by the triumphant kingdom of his Christ. (Ezek. 38:23; Dan. 2:44) As Jehovahs people serve and live according to his righteousness, they are confident that there will be no one making them tremble. (Zeph. 3:13) They enjoy true peace of mind! A TIME FOR JOYFUL ACTIVITY 16 Zephaniah himself is made glad by such assurance from Jehovah, so that he calls on Gods people saying: Joyfully cry out, O daughter of Zion! Break out in cheers, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem! Jehovah has removed the judgments upon you. He has turned away your enemy. The king of Israel, Jehovah, is in the midst of you. You will fear calamity no more. (Zeph. 3:14, 15) Since 1919, when they were released from spiritual captivity to Babylon the Great, the anointed witnesses of Jehovah have served him shoulder to shoulder in giving joyful public testimony. Jehovah has judged and approved these children of the heavenly Jerusalem. (Gal. 4:26; 1 Pet. 4:17) Prisons and slave labor camps have proved powerless to draw them again into spiritual bondage. Their rejoicing is now shared by a great crowd of companion Witnesses, identified since 1935 as part of the Lords other sheep.John 10:16; Rev. 7:9, 10. 17 Directly to his anointed ones, representing the heavenly Zion, and through them to their fellow workers of the great crowd, Jehovah himself now makes appeal, saying: Do not be afraid, O Zion. May your hands not drop down. (Zeph. 3:16) As terrible as crime and violence are today, as fearsome as the challenges of the nuclear age may become, as cruel as may be the persecutions yet to come upon Jehovahs Witnesses, their very intimacy with Jehovah and trust in their God will carry them through. Having put our hands to the plow of sacred service, may we never look back at the things behind and cease plowing forward, shoulder to shoulder! (Luke 9:62; Rev. 7:15) For now the prophecy gives this further divine assurance: Jehovah your God is in the midst of you. As a mighty One, he will save. He will exult over you with rejoicing. He will become silent in his love. He will be joyful over you with happy cries. (Zeph. 3:17) Jehovah is silent in finding ease and refreshment by expressing love to his recovered, restored people, and great is his joy and exultation over their integrity and zeal in his service. In these last days we should feel very close to our living God, Jehovah, as we unitedly apply shoulders to his service.2 Tim. 3:1. 18 Since 1919, it has been a grand day of restoration for all of Gods people. As faithful witnesses they have continued to preach with missionary zeal, so that Jehovahs organization has expanded to the very ends of the earth. (Rom. 10:10, 18) It has indeed been a time for bringing in Gods people, collecting them together. And for what purpose? Jehovah himself answers: I shall make you people to be a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth. (Zeph. 3:20) Happily, the anointed remnant of Gods people have become a name and a praise in holding high the precious name of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, and now many of those peoples of the earth are working with them, shoulder to shoulder, in making known his Kingdom purposes. Our change to speaking the pure language, and our continuing to herald forth that good news of the kingdom, will yet help thousands more to call upon the name of Jehovah, that these, too, may be hidden of Jehovah during the day of his anger, and boldly come forth to praise him throughout all eternity. |
There is no discouragement of independent thinking any where in this. It just states that some will fall away from the truth b/c of Satan.
Post by: rms2001 on August 08, 2004, 12:15:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| He didn't begin his life here on earth he didn't begin it at all. He is/was God. |
IS he or WAS he God? Make up your mind. It seems you don't know or understand what you believe in, or in what you are saying for that matter.
| QUOTE |
| Every sinlge one of your arguements is based off of a false and corrupted version of Scripture. How can a bucket full of holes hold water? |
I don't know whos Bible you use, and from what I can tell, your Bible is the one that is corrupted.
The NWT was just revised back in 1984, and out of six and half million (or so) Witnesses you dont think at least one of them has a degree in Greek or Hebrew? A friend of mine is 17 years old, he speaks Hebrew, and speaks it well. It doesnt take a degree in some thing to translate. I can speak German, but I dont have a degree in German, so dose that mean Im not qualified to translate a German book, or even a restaurant menu?
As for your twisted views on John 1:1, 2 - 1 Timothy 2:5, puts a slightly different angel on it, see if this makes more since to you. 1 Timothy 2:5; For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, Now dose that not say there are more than one being there? There is two, God and his Son. The KJV says the same thing.
Now on that same note, lets take a look at Genesis. Genesis 1:26; And God went on to say: Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness To me, it seems there is more than just God sitting up there in the Heavens (at least to me and 6.5million other people). God didnt say SELF! Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness Looking at it like you do, it makes God look like a skit-so.
It seems your set in your ways and apostate ideas on the Witnesses. So with that said Im done arguing with you. Its also seems that Satan has vialed your eyes and hardened your heart to the truth.
Krusty or Mitch, I hope you have better luck with this guy b/c I think I'm done. I hate to stop, but it seems like I'm talking to a brick wall.
Post by: krustytheclown on August 08, 2004, 12:32:00 AM
Jesusphreak, don't think that you "won" this conversation/arguement. You haven't.
Post by: AkumAPRIME on August 08, 2004, 05:08:00 PM
Post by: jesusphreak on August 08, 2004, 08:51:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| As for your twisted views on John 1:1, 2 - 1 Timothy 2:5, puts a slightly different angel on it, see if this makes more since to you. 1 Timothy 2:5; For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, Now dose that not say there are more than one being there? There is two, God and his Son. The KJV says the same thing. |
You obviously aren't reading that the same way I am. I read it as, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men (this is implying that this is saying that there is one God and this one God is the mediator). I don't read that the same way you do. And honestly, I don't read it based off of what some organization tells me to read it as. I read it as I see it.
I wonder how others would read it?
| QUOTE |
| Now on that same note, lets take a look at Genesis. Genesis 1:26; And God went on to say: Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness To me, it seems there is more than just God sitting up there in the Heavens (at least to me and 6.5million other people). God didnt say SELF! Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness Looking at it like you do, it makes God look like a skit-so. |
I don't think so at all. I think God in this instance is talking to the angels. Do angels not exist? Does this really require you either saying that he is talking of multiple gods or that he's a skitzophrenic? It doesn't seem that difficult to me.
| QUOTE |
| It seems your set in your ways and apostate ideas on the Witnesses. So with that said Im done arguing with you. Its also seems that Satan has vialed your eyes and hardened your heart to the truth. Krusty or Mitch, I hope you have better luck with this guy b/c I think I'm done. I hate to stop, but it seems like I'm talking to a brick wall. |
Hmm...
Is all of my thinking really apostate? Or is it apostate to what the Watchtower believes? You failed to answer anything else I put into my post. You are ignoring what I'm saying and believing what you want to. I don't think that I'm hardheaded nor stubborn. I'm just trying to help you out, and you are refusing to even hear what I'm saying.
| QUOTE |
| The NWT was just revised back in 1984, and out of six and half million (or so) Witnesses you dont think at least one of them has a degree in Greek or Hebrew? A friend of mine is 17 years old, he speaks Hebrew, and speaks it well. It doesnt take a degree in some thing to translate. I can speak German, but I dont have a degree in German, so dose that mean Im not qualified to translate a German book, or even a restaurant menu? |
That's very true. Modern Greek and modern Hebrew are not at all the same thing as ancient Greek or ancient Hebrew. Ask any language scholar about that. Languages change. Languages evolve. You cannot translate a 2000 year old piece of work based off of understanding of a modern version of the language. So actually, your reasoning is wrong, and if it is the reasoning of the Watchtower organization at large, I'd be concerned in what they believe.
Please read and understand what I'm saying.
| QUOTE |
| Let me ask you "jesusphreak", if Jesus was God when he was on Earth how come people didn't start piling up at his feet dead? For Exodus 33:20 says: 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." - NIV 20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, (1) for no man can see Me and live!" NASTB 20 GOD continued, "But you may not see my face. No one can see me and live." - MSG None of those were from our version but ours says the exact same thing! |
This is where the theology of JWs fails to make sense of Christ in the Od Testament. The Angel of the Lord appears throughout the Old Testament. Every single time this "Angel" appears, people bow down and worship him. This is what is strange. The rest of the angels found in the Bible deny the worship of the people. They tell them that the people should worship God alone and not Him. But this "Angel" doesn't do that. He let's the people worship him. Not only this, but in several cases, after people seeing the angel, they are amazed over the fact that, "I have seen God face to face and have not died".
Now, is this really an angel, or is it Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, whom people can see and live, and yet not die....
Think about it. It'll whack up the whole JW theology....
The Story of Hagar in the Desert (Genesis 16):
7 The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my mistress Sarai," she answered.
9 Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit to her." 10 The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count." 11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael, [1]
for the LORD has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward [2] all his brothers."
13 She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen [3] the One who sees me." 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi [4] ; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
Moses and the Burning Bush:
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up."
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
And Moses said, "Here I am."
5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
Balak and the Donkey:
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.
32 The angel of the LORD asked him, "Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me. [3] 33 The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If she had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but I would have spared her."
34 Balaam said to the angel of the LORD , "I have sinned. I did not realize you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now if you are displeased, I will go back."
35 The angel of the LORD said to Balaam, "Go with the men, but speak only what I tell you." So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
36 When Balak heard that Balaam was coming, he went out to meet him at the Moabite town on the Arnon border, at the edge of his territory. 37 Balak said to Balaam, "Did I not send you an urgent summons? Why didn't you come to me? Am I really not able to reward you?"
38 "Well, I have come to you now," Balaam replied. "But can I say just anything? I must speak only what God puts in my mouth." 39 Then Balaam went with Balak to Kiriath Huzoth. 40 Balak sacrificed cattle and sheep, and gave some to Balaam and the princes who were with him. 41 The next morning Balak took Balaam up to Bamoth Baal, and from there he saw part of the people.
Gideon and the Angel of the Lord
11 The angel of the LORD came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon, he said, "The LORD is with you, mighty warrior."
13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."
14 The LORD turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?" 15 "But Lord , [1] " Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."
16 The LORD answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."
17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."
And the LORD said, "I will wait until you return."
19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah [2] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.
20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the LORD touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the LORD disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD , he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign LORD ! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!"
23 But the LORD said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."
The Birth of Samson
9 God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. 10 The woman hurried to tell her husband, "He's here! The man who appeared to me the other day!"
11 Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, "Are you the one who talked to my wife?"
"I am," he said.
12 So Manoah asked him, "When your words are fulfilled, what is to be the rule for the boy's life and work?"
13 The angel of the LORD answered, "Your wife must do all that I have told her. 14 She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her."
15 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD , "We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you."
16 The angel of the LORD replied, "Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the LORD ." (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD .) 17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the LORD , "What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?"
18 He replied, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding. [1] " 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the LORD . And the LORD did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD .
22 "We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"
23 But his wife answered, "If the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this."
I find this verse very interesting:
In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old (Isa. 63:9).
Also, notice this angel's hesitation to be worshipped: "0At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." - Revelation 19
Notice 1 John 4:12 -
"12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."
and Exodus 33:19-20:
19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD , in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
"20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
So...
Let me ask you this....
If the angels of the Bible reject worship, and the Angel of the Lord accepts worship, who is he?
If the Bible says that no man has seen God, and God says that no man may see him or die, why do people of the Old Testament become frightened of death when they realize who the angel of the Lord is?
Why does the Angel of the Lord accept offerings?
Why does he speak with the very words of God?
and most of all, why do people think they have seen God after seeing him?
There must be some kind of contradiction here according to your reasoning. If Jesus was not God, why did he accept worship. Is it not possible that the Angel of the Lord was Jesus Christ in the Old Testament? It really is the only logical explanation. I mean, he does everything as God, he accepts himself as God, and yet people don't die when they see him. Doesn't that sound like the Christ?
What do you think? According to the JW theology, this doesn't make sense. Jesus is just God's son, he isn't God himself, so he isn't worthy of worship and he isn't God in the flesh. The Angel of the Lord argues otherwise.
Just something to actually consider.
In the love of Christ, jesusphreak...
Post by: jesusphreak on August 08, 2004, 08:58:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| "The purpose of The Watchtower is to exalt Jehovah God as Sovereign Lord of the universe. It keeps watch on world events as these fulfill Bible prophecy. It comforts all peoples with the good news that God's Kingdom will soon destroy those who oppress their fellowmen and that it will turn the earth into a paradise. It encourages faith in God's now-reigning King, Jesus Christ, whose shed blood opens the way for mankind to gain eternal life. The Watchtower, published by Jehovah's' Witnesses continuously since 1879, is nonpolitical. It adheres to the Bible as its authority." That is stated in every Watchtower on the second page! |
Maybe you should read what I said earlier. The Watchtower does claim itself as the prophet and proper handler of God.
| QUOTE |
| The Watchtower has a average printing of 25,618,000 each issue and thats semimonthly ( that means two issues a month if you didn't know what that meant), thats in 148+ languages, in over 230 lands. WE are the only organization that is doing what is said a Matthew 24:14: "And this good news will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations;" |
I still don't have any idea where you are getting this from. Christian missionaries are all over the world, and the Bible is the most translated book in the world. There are Christain missionaries in the Arctic, the Sahara, and anywhere else you could think of translating and preaching the word of God to other people.
I have no idea where you are getting this think about "being the only organization", because that is blatantly false.
| QUOTE |
| Are the people in your religion, by the way you still haven t said what that is, in line with each other in what they believe? Also every one of us has a part at our meetings and in going door to door, does everybody in you church do that? |
Yes. The interesting thing is, the "religion" you speak of my faith as has billions of people across the world who believe it, and they all have the same basic beliefs and ideas of who Jesus Christ is. The difference here is, we aren't all led by a single organization, yet they all believe the same.
| QUOTE |
| You should really get your facts strait about us before you go on the Internet and make yourself an idiot! Oh and for doing what you say your doing in dallas you sher do spend alot of time on here! |
I think that the people of South Dallas need Jesus CHrist just as much as the people of the Internet do...
In the love of Christ, jesusphreak...
Post by: SmallBusinessGuy on August 08, 2004, 09:15:00 PM
, your princess leia get-up was so hot last year, I'd hit it.
Post by: krustytheclown on August 08, 2004, 10:18:00 PM
| QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 8 2004, 11:01 PM) |
| Yes. The interesting thing is, the "religion" you speak of my faith as has billions of people across the world who believe it, and they all have the same basic beliefs and ideas of who Jesus Christ is. The difference here is, we aren't all led by a single organization, yet they all believe the same. |
Wait, are you saying that all of christianitys different religions believe the same? Are you nuts? You're saying that all christians belive in the rapture, the trinity, and hellfire?
You ask any 2 so called christians on what they believe, and you will get two completley different answers. The reason why there are so many different denominations of christianity is so that you can claim to be a christian, but at the same time, you would have a lot different beliefs than a baptist or catholic.
BTW, You still haven't answered my question. What denomination are you?
Post by: rms2001 on August 09, 2004, 01:21:00 AM
I did read your last posts and I will say it again, it seems your version of the Bible is the one that is corrupted. In your mile long post, you never used God's name Jehovah once. And you have the balls to call my Bible translation corrupted?
| QUOTE |
| Is all of my thinking really apostate? |
In a word, YES.
| QUOTE |
| I have no idea where you are getting this think about "being the only organization", because that is blatantly false. |
He is correct in what he said. Between the Witnesses and the rest of Christendom, we are the only organization who is preaching the good news as a whole. Individuals may be doing it here and there, but they dont have training or the correct info to be preaching. And you cant really count the Mormons b/c well, they dont even use the Bible.
And you have still not replied to my last post on Hell. Found Here
Did you finally come to terms with your self and emit the Witnesses were right and was your faith hurt so much it didnt vindicate a reply?
On to more important things.
Mitch Im in Arizona (if my avatar didnt give it away
). All though Ill trade you any time, I love WA. I have family on the San Juan Islands and its just beautiful. Use to live in Oregon and I miss the rain and all the trees.
Post by: melon on August 09, 2004, 03:49:00 AM
Post by: jesusphreak on August 10, 2004, 09:16:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| You do know that the Bible is a collection of books that was not assembled until the late 1400's? The book of revelations is one of the many epistles (books) written by apostles. This one was written by John, and was not even the last epistle written chronologically. John was referring only to the book of revelations, not the bible as a whole; it was not even compiled at the time. And besides, i have read the Book of Mormon, and doctrinally it doesn't contradict or add to the bible in any way. |
Foehammer...
If you believe that, you are quite wrong. The Council of Nicea in 325 AD was the official time that the canon (all 66 books of the Bible that modern day protestant use) was set. It was not set 1400 ad. You should read up on the council of Nicea.
And, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but if this "thorough study" that you have done on the LDS faith is as "thorough" as what you said just brought up, how do you really believe what you do?
| QUOTE |
| He (jesusfreak) doesn't believe that the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses are Christians, because neither believe in the trinity; that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all the same personage. It's rather quite funny that his definition of a Christian is based on a bunch of man made rules and interpretation of the Bible of what a Christian is. I consider a Christian to be anyone who believes in Christ, that He is the literal Son of God, and follows His teaching through word and DEED. |
I find it ironic that both JWs and Mormons believe nearly the same on this...
I don't disagree with you that a Christian follows God's teachings throught word and DEED....but I don't think you need your deeds to get you into heaven (or the third level of it as Mormons believe).
Foehammer, I find it interesting that you are popping up here again, when I sat down with my friend for about 45 minutes and typed you out a post rebuking with sources and facts what you had been writing earlier....
You completely failed to answer any of it. What's the deal? I really don't feel like you could dispute what I said, considering every single thing was based on what Mormons they themselves believe. Why did you leave?
Anyway, this next part can apply to Mormons and JWs alike....
Remember when I asked you guys earlier if "Jehovah performed the greatest act of love"?
Remember your responses?:
"YES he has. John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. If thats not the greatest act of love, than I dont know what is.
This is the same thing Abraham did. Abraham was going sacrifice his son to Jehovah. Jehovah spared Isaac, but this showed the greatest act of love. The very same thing God did for us, sacrificed his Son so that we may have a hope of living for ever."
"Of course, Jehovah (God) let his son (his first creation) come to earth as human, and die a horrible death. The fact that Jehovah let his son, a perfect spirit being, die for us, is the absolute meaning of love. We didn't deserve that. But, Jehovah loves us so much, that he let son die for us. I know I repeated myself, I just wanted to emphasize that."
Is really that really the ultimate act of love? Christ says, "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends." - John 15:13
Notice, this is from the NWT!
According to Jesus, the greatest act of love is to give up your life, or your soul, for your friends....
Remember, the Bible says, "God is love"...
"And we ourselves have come to know and have believed the love that God has in our case. God is love, and he that remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him." - 1 John 4:16 (again NWT)
So think about this. Christ told us that the greatest act of love was to give up our lives for our friends....and he did so. According to both JW and Mormon theology, God did not give up his life for his friends....Jesus did.
Has Jesus outdone God? Has Jesus actually performed the greatest act of love?
See, if Jesus is God...as I do believe, he has performed the greatest act of love for me. God has died for me...
But if Jesus isn't God, and is merely the first created one, as you do claim, then God hasn't performed the greatest act of love, but he has been outdone by his firstborn creation.
Is God love, or is he not?
In the LOVE of Christ....jesusphreak
Post by: krustytheclown on August 10, 2004, 09:19:00 PM
Post by: thomes08 on August 10, 2004, 11:31:00 PM
Post by: Foe-hammer on August 11, 2004, 01:02:00 AM
| QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 11 2004, 05:19 AM) |
| Foehammer, I find it interesting that you are popping up here again, when I sat down with my friend for about 45 minutes and typed you out a post rebuking with sources and facts what you had been writing earlier.... You completely failed to answer any of it. What's the deal? I really don't feel like you could dispute what I said, considering every single thing was based on what Mormons they themselves believe. Why did you leave? |
Why did i leave? Because talking to you is as rewarding as talking to a wall. It's just pointless arguing with you jesusfreak. Even when i blatantly prove your accusations wrong, you totally dismiss your previous accusations while not even backing it up, and then move on to another half-ass issue. It utterly amazes me how you deal with other people who are not of your faith; you tell them of all the things that are wrong with their religion and expect them to listen to what you have to say. Seriously who are you kidding .only yourself obviously. You breed contention jesusfreak. Grow up.
Just to make you feel better, i'll take another look at what you have said, and if i have time to waste i'll give a response.
EDIT:
| QUOTE |
| If you believe that, you are quite wrong. The Council of Nicea in 325 AD was the official time that the canon (all 66 books of the Bible that modern day protestant use) was set. It was not set 1400 ad. You should read up on the council of Nicea. |
You are right, I was thinking of the King James transilation of the Bible. The books of the New Testiment was first compiled, to what we pretty much now have today, in the early 4th century. None the less, it doesn't effect what i was stating; that John was referring to the book of Revelations, and not the Bible as a whole.
Post by: rms2001 on August 11, 2004, 02:10:00 AM
If I have three balls of clay and I press them together into one ball then they become ONE but now it is impossible to retrieve the original three exactly as they were originally.
If I have three bricks and I stack them above each other then I can separate them, but I can not call the three bricks ONE brick.
By far, the most common analogy given for the "trinity" by the Church is that of the three forms of water, specifically, ice, liquid, and steam. They say, just as water is "one" but with three "states" or three "forms," so too is God Almighty one but with three states.On the face of it this appears to be quite a compelling argument.
If I have a cup of water which can become steam, liquid, or ice, then it is not possible for me to drink the "liquid" while the "ice" and "steam" remain inside the glass. It is not possible for the "liquid" to beseech the ice to save it from being drunk while the ice stayed a safe distance away and was not itself drunk. This is simple logic. In a similar manner, if God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all merely three "personalities" or three "states" for one being, namely God Almighty, then it is not possible for one "personality" of God to DIE while the other two remained a safe distance away unharmed by death (Mark 15:37, John 19:33, Romans 5:6,...etc.).
Some will then solve this dilemma, as seen in the previous section, by claiming that Jesus did not actually "die," rather, he simply shed his earthly "skin." His actual essence was not killed. In this case it is necessary to ask: where then is the great sacrifice? If one of us has five thousand coats, and he takes one off and throws it in the fire then puts on a different one and says: "I did this as an ultimate sacrifice for you," is this truly an ultimate sacrifice if he can simply create one thousand more earthly "skins" to inhabit in place of the one he shed? Does his taking off of his coat and putting on a new one after three days "atone" for the sins of all of the "inherently wicked and sinful mankind" from the beginning of time? "and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength" - Mark 12:30
There are many other situations in the Bible that contradict this analogy and the theory of "three" gods. For example:
Would it be logical to picture the "ice" form of a bucket of water praying to the "steam" form of itself (e.g. Luke 6:12). Further, did water start out as liquid and then decide to "beget" for itself another personality as "ice" and then add on a third personality as "steam"? Did God start out with one "personality" and then one day "beget" for Himself multiple personalities to keep Him company?. Does He usually speak to His other personalities and beseech them for salvation? (Matthew 27:46) Did He sacrifice one of His personalities to "save" mankind? Do some of His personalities have knowledge not available to others (Mark 13:32)? Are some of His "personalities" more powerful than others (John 14:28)? Are some of his personalities submissive to others (Luke 22:41-44)? Is this our mental picture of God? How will we answer Him on the day of judgment when He asks us about these claims we have made against Him?
Okay, I think the trinity theory has been busted, again
Any way, jesusfreak you bring out an interesting point about John 15:13. I know theres more to it than that, just escapes me at the moment. So even if God did not perform the greatest act of love and Jesus did, what dose that prove?
So, the Trinity, Hell, and the Witnesses being a cult have all been busted, next question please Alex.
Post by: rms2001 on August 11, 2004, 08:26:00 AM
Post by: thomes08 on August 11, 2004, 08:42:00 AM
thomes08
Post by: jesusphreak on August 11, 2004, 04:35:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Okay, I think the trinity theory has been busted, again |
I don't think so at all. I refuse to read either you or mitches arguements if they continue to be full page copies for the Watchtower website. Argue with your own words and I might believe that you aren't just taking their interpretation for everything....
| QUOTE |
| Any way, jesusfreak you bring out an interesting point about John 15:13. I know theres more to it than that, just escapes me at the moment. So even if God did not perform the greatest act of love and Jesus did, what dose that prove? |
Jesus chose to make the ultimate sacrifice. In your version of it, God didn't. What does that mean to me? It seems to me that Jesus loves me more than God (Jehovah). Why are we worshipping God instead of Jesus again? He didn't love us enough to do it himself, but he substituted someone else for himself? Is that really love? Or is it cowardice?
In Christianity, God made the greatest sacrifice possible - have gave his infinite life. In JW or Mormon theology, he didn't....he just made one of his special creations do it....
Jesus seems to be outdoing God....
Post by: jesusphreak on August 11, 2004, 04:37:00 PM
Let me ask you a major question, why did Jesus accept worship if he wasn't God?
Post by: rms2001 on August 11, 2004, 06:31:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Because talking to you is as rewarding as talking to a wall. It's just pointless arguing with you jesusfreak. Even when i blatantly prove your accusations wrong, you totally dismiss your previous accusations while not even backing it up, and then move on to another half-ass issue. |
| QUOTE |
| I don't think so at all. I refuse to read either you or mitches arguements if they continue to be full page copies for the Watchtower website. Argue with your own words and I might believe that you aren't just taking their interpretation for everything.... |
Thats is your problem, you are picking things out of the Watchtower, twisting and sping its words to suite your need at the time. And BTW, I'm not getting then off a website.
All my copy and pasting from any of our publications is from this handy little CD I have. But the steam, water, and ice post I did get off the web yes, but it still proves my point.| QUOTE |
| Let me ask you a major question, why did Jesus accept worship if he wasn't God? |
There is where the KJV of the Bible got it wrong. We note in the NWT of the Christian Greek Scriptures that in all these cases of Jesus receiving such attention on earth as a man this Greek verb is rendered, not as worship but as do obeisance to." this Greek verb proskyne´o occurs many times in the Greek septuagint sersion of the Hebrew scriptures and there this verb is used toward men, such as Joseph. In these cases proskyne´o could not mean worship but merely bowing or doing obeisance to a person out of deep respect. So it must have been such outward show of respect that was paid to Jesus here on earth, because he was viewed as being Gods representative, servant and prophet, and as the Son of David who was to be the Messianic King.
So in essence, we were not worshiping Jesus we were mealy showing respect for him and his Father.
Going back to weather or not Jehovah preformed the greatest act of love.
Watchtower 1976, Jan. 1/1 - Try to Be Like Him - JESUS CHRIST, THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD
| QUOTE |
| 4 Remember this: After Adams fall Jehovah God was still very much interested in mankind, and he purposed to have human creatures fill this earth. However, Gods justice had to be satisfied, and so he provided a redeemer, or ransomer, for Adams offspring. The Scriptures inform us: God loved the world [of mankind] so much that he gave his only-begotten Son [as a ransom], in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) What love! The Son of God made his appearance as a perfect human creature by birth through the virgin Mary. He was really the second Adam or second perfect man on earth. (1 Cor. 15:45) He poured out his life and purchased the whole human family. Jesus Christ proved himself to be the ransomer for mankind, as it is stated: The Son of man came . . . to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many. (Matt. 20:28) Christians understand that there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.1 Tim. 2:5, 6. 5 We can say of this second Adam, Jesus Christ, that he, too, was like his Father in heaven. (Heb. 1:3) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (Col. 1:15) Christians are invited to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing him. (Col. 1:10) So those who want to be like Jehovah God would be looking to Christ Jesus as their example so as to be walking in his footsteps. 6 While Jesus was made in the image of his Father in heaven, he never sought to be equal with God, for we read: Christ Jesus, . . . although he was existing in Gods form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slaves form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. (Phil. 2:5-8) So we see that Jesus Christ himself, fashioned as a perfect man, became obedient to everything that Jehovah God said he should do. Those who want to become imitators of God must walk according to the way Jesus walked, for Jesus said: He that does not love me does not observe my words; and the word that you are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me. (John 14:24) Jesus was so much like his Father Jehovah God, so much in harmony with His righteous ways and life, that when he spoke, the listener would not be hearing something that Jesus was thinking up of his own imagination. Why? Because the Bible says: The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these.John 5:19, 20. 7 Today we have in the Bible the record of this marvelous example of Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God. For thirty-three and a half years as a human creature here upon the earth he proved himself to be like his Father in heaven. He certainly set a perfect example of one who was made in the image of God. Even though he was a human he truly was the Son of God, the second Adam, who takes away the sin of the world.John 1:29. 8 Christians today are admonished to put forth an extraordinary effort to be like Jehovah God, and there is no reason for a Christian to give up in trying. If a Christian today entertains earthly hopes and expects to live eternally after the thousand-year Messianic reign of Christ Jesus has ended, he will certainly have to reflect the image and likeness of God by then. Why? Well, because, when Christ Jesus turns everything over to the Father, truly everyone then alive on earth will be a son of God through Christas Jehovah said, in our image, according to our likeness. Jehovahs purpose will have been carried out for the first human pair to be fruitful and become many and fill the earth.Gen. 1:26-28; Rom. 8:20, 21. |
Emphasis on John 5:19, 20 if you dont fell like reading the quote.
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 11, 2004, 06:44:00 PM
| QUOTE (rms2001) |
| Steam, Water, and Ice. |
St. Patrick put it best, when he used a 3 leaf clover as an analogy. What I don't , understand, rms, is why are you trying to prove that there is only one god , Jehovah? You have said before that Jesus was god's son, not god himself. If God were to have a son, he would be a god. Consider that Jesus was born of a virgin, so he could not have been simply a man. We, instead, were created in his image, as your bible says. That is a contradiction.
| QUOTE (rms2001) |
| next question please Alex. |
aCTUALLY, Alex Trebek gives answers, you provide the question
PS. when did foe-hammer "prove jesusphreaks accusations wrong" ? that does not even make sense. I just proved foe-hammer's sentence development wrong. I just made that up. It's jibberish. How about, "I detentionated your theological presuppositions incorrect through intellectual mannerism" ? Sounds great, but it makes no sense.
Post by: rms2001 on August 11, 2004, 07:04:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 11 2004, 07:47 PM) |
| St. Patrick put it best, when he used a 3 leaf clover as an analogy. What I don't , understand, rms, is why are you trying to prove that there is only one god , Jehovah? You have said before that Jesus was god's son, not god himself. If God were to have a son, he would be a god. Consider that Jesus was born of a virgin, so he could not have been simply a man. We, instead, were created in his image, as your bible says. That is a contradiction. |
Not trying to prove there is one God, but that Jesus is not God Almighty.
Jesus is a god, but not God. We humans are gods to say animals. Jesus is a god to humans but not God. Jesus is not God Almighty, just a god in the rank of things.
1 Corinthians 8:5, 6 tells us; 5 For even though there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords, 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.
Think about that carefully.
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 11, 2004, 11:51:00 PM
This is another example of twisting the verses in the holy bible. The bible is not hiding secret messages, it was meant to reach all people, and to be simple to understand. Most children could read that verse and tell me it meant God is the father, Jesus is the son. When you overanalyze a book, you take things out of context.
Post by: loai on August 12, 2004, 12:22:00 AM
Good night!
Post by: rms2001 on August 12, 2004, 03:22:00 AM
Post by: Foe-hammer on August 12, 2004, 12:21:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 12 2004, 02:47 AM) |
| aCTUALLY, Alex Trebek gives answers, you provide the question PS. when did foe-hammer "prove jesusphreaks accusations wrong" ? that does not even make sense. I just proved foe-hammer's sentence development wrong. I just made that up. It's jibberish. How about, "I detentionated your theological presuppositions incorrect through intellectual mannerism" ? Sounds great, but it makes no sense. |
What!?.............................
While the contestants pick the topics in the categories, Alex does indeed read/ask the questions.
| QUOTE |
| Even when i blatantly prove your accusations wrong, you totally dismiss your previous accusations while not even backing it up, and then move on to another half-ass issue. |
Why did my sentence structure not make sense?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 12, 2004, 01:02:00 PM
| QUOTE |
What!?............................. While the contestants pick the topics in the categories, Alex does indeed read/ask the questions. |
you have to answer in the form of a question (eg. What is Theodore Roosevelt?), and when you would choose a category there is no question mark (?) therefore , it is not a question. Questions are not answered with questions. Wow, that was a pointless arguement.
| QUOTE (foehammmer) |
| Why did my sentence structure not make sense? |
| QUOTE (foehammer) |
| Even when i blatantly prove your accusations wrong, |
You cannot proove accusations wrong. They're ACCUSATIONS. If you has said "so-called facts in you accusations" that would have made sense. I'm not a typereader but I like to see good sentence structure. Please don't take that personally.
On with the discussion. Foe-hammer, what is your opinion of the various biblical translations?
Post by: Foe-hammer on August 12, 2004, 02:13:00 PM
You're right, Mr. Chips. Silly me. But you did understand what i was trying to say.
As far as my view of the various biblical translations, I really don't have one; I have always stuck with the KJV of the bible.
Post by: muerte on August 12, 2004, 03:01:00 PM
Post by: rms2001 on November 13, 2006, 11:31:00 PM
Sooo, jesusphreak its been a little over two years. Are you still as hard headed as you were than? Just curious is all.
Who else is still around who contributed to this three page battle?
Post by: Modderxtrordanare on November 14, 2006, 01:59:00 PM
QUOTE(rms2001 @ Nov 14 2006, 12:38 AM) 
Kinda annoying to bring a dead thread back to life for no reason at all. I love cluttering the forums.
Sooo, jesusphreak its been a little over two years. Are you still as hard headed as you were than? Just curious is all.
Who else is still around who contributed to this eight page battle?
Better.
Post by: rms2001 on November 14, 2006, 09:21:00 PM
QUOTE(Modderxtrordanare @ Nov 14 2006, 04:06 PM)
Better.
Oh ya, thats real intelligent. Really, that took what, two seconds of thought time? Isnt it past your bedtime? Not like theres a whole hell of a lot going on around here. And I know I my question wasnt directed to you.
Post by: epsilon72 on December 02, 2006, 11:32:00 PM
@ the arguing users:::: Why must you argue so much about religion? Can't you respect others' beliefs without attempting to change them at every opportunity? You're not going to convince anyone that your religion is "the true one" over the internet on a message board of an xbox website....
Post by: 0794 on December 05, 2006, 10:21:00 PM
QUOTE(epsilon72 @ Dec 3 2006, 12:39 AM)
Wow, this is not a friendly thread.
@ the arguing users:::: Why must you argue so much about religion? Can't you respect others' beliefs without attempting to change them at every opportunity? You're not going to convince anyone that your religion is "the true one" over the internet on a message board of an xbox website....
I agree.
I am a non-denominational Christian and believe completely in the Bible.
I have studied numerous religions closely and have come to a very important conclusion:
The greatest and most powerful cults out there are a very, very, very close variant of true Christianity and distort the truth while supplying tons of "evidence" that was usually manipulated by someone in their historical lineage - be careful what you choose to believe and really spend time searching for the truth yourself...your eternity is depending on it.
Post by: Juniorman030790 on December 09, 2006, 07:28:00 PM
I believe that IF there is a heaven and a God, that if one tries to pursue good actions throughout their life and do good things for the betterment of mankind, then this "all mighty" and "loving" God will allow those kind souls into the proposed "heaven". If they have done evil things throughout life, such as murder then I think IF there is indeed a "Hell" then those evil-doers will go to hell.
If this "God" people argue of really does exist and is as kind as so many people say, then he will understand my confused ways and understand how I am agnostic and will not condemn me for my beliefs. I try to be a kind person and so I hope to go to a "heaven" if there is indeed a place. If not, then I will just be another dead SOB in a hole in the ground.