Post by: grifter66 on July 16, 2005, 11:47:00 AM
Ok just to go over this so it is clear:
There seems to be a lot of confusion and debate as to what needs to be used, how it gets used..etc..etc....
I figure, that if people know/understand exactly how the mods work and react in the game, that people will have a better understanding of how to properly use mods.
I also want to be clear that I'm not saying that ESMs don't work or that you shouldn't use them (Obviously some people haven't had a problem with this).
All I'm doing is providing a detailed explination of what happens to a mod and how it interacts with the game when it being used. In short this is to help people have a better understanding of how this whole thing works.
About the term CONVERT:
We are all using the wrong term...The word convert is the wrong word to be using that's not even what your doing to a mod to get it to work on the x-box.
The actual term for what everyone including myself is called:
Re-formatting.
The term convert we all keep using would mean that we are completely changing the file layout so that it would be able to be used on another system (Example if Morrowind was on the Game Cube) Then you would have to convert it...But for now all we are doing is Re-Formatting it.
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What is an ESP/ESM file?
ESM stands for Elder Scrolls Master file
ESP stands for Elder Scrolls Plug-in file
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What are the differences between the 2 file types?
An ESM is what the game actual looks for to run a particular section of the game hence the name MASTER FILE.
An ESP file is a file type that gets read/looked at by the ESM so that the game knows exactly what to do in a particular area. Hence the name PLUG-IN File..You are plugging something into a masterfile so that the mater file can add/read and get it to work in the section of the game you are currently in.
Both the computer version and x-box version only have 3 ESM files
Morrowind.esm
Bloodmoon.esm
Tribunal.esm
The only reason you don't see 3 different .esm files in the X-Box version, is because all 3 files are rolled into one master file. Which is basically the 3 seperate computer ESMs. (with some changes of course). This is wheer the merge method of the .xbe file came from. The 3 compter .esms were being set up to be read on the X-Box. But as it turned out, this was a little to complex for some people to do, or not every one had the files to do this with. The hex edited version is something everyone can do and with no money. the merge method would cost $20-$30. Hexing is free. Also there are some mods that will only work using teh merge method. So as you can see each method has it's ups and downs. It was asked by myself as well as about 4 others, has anyone been able to use both, the merge and hex edited version...This still has yet to be answered. I myself think this would be interesting to see....Any takers are welcome just let us know if you succeed and what happens.
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Where do the Plug-in files come from?
The esp is a result of what the mod is made from.
What you do is you take any or all .esm files and open them up in the Construction set. the esm file houses all the info that you create a mod out of. So the more .ESMs you have, the more chioces of what you have to make a mod with
for example using both Bloodmoon and Morrowind.ESMs to create a mod you will have all the items from both bloodmoon and Morrowind (Example About 3000+ items to choose from) Compared to just the Morrowind.ESM which will only give you about 1500 items to choose from. This is where and how the dependencies come from. Basically if a mod (Which is the ESP) was created with both the Morrowind.esm and the Bloodmoon.esm it would need both of those .esm (Master files to run off of. So in this case you would have a bloodmoon and Morrowind.esm dependency when you opened up the mod with the TESDTK. Since the X-Box only has one .esm which is the Morrowind.ESM you would need to remove the Bloodmoon dependency so that the mod is only dependent on the morrowind.ESM and not both the bloodmoon and the Morrowind.esm.
I think you get the point
If you leave a mod as an ESM what happens is once you reach the section with the mod in it, the game is looking for something that needs sub files (ESPs) to work with or to run off of. And in most cases the game can't figure out what file to run it from. So it creates a confliction. For example you have the clear bounty ring (Located in Seyda Neen) that is still in ESM format. What happens is that as soon as you enter Seyda Neen, the game is now looging at both the Morrowind.esm and the clear bounty.esm. and since normally the Morrowind.esm take presidence. So it will look at that file first to configure the area to how it's supposed to be. But since you now have to master files for configuring that area the game is looking for the rest of the things that go with it. So it's taking all thre info from Seyda Neen and placing it into both esm files. So yes if you configurd the clear bounty ring properly, you can actually run Seyda Neen off of the clear bounty.esm. So by changing the ESM to an ESP, or keeping the ESP the file as an ESP (But removing the dependencies from it), the mod will have a higher chance of working then if you kept or changed it to an ESM. Because it isn't trying to run an entire area from that particular .ESM file. So instead of tring to run either 2 ESMs at once, or trying to run the game from 2 different .ESMs it is running 1 .ESM and reading 1 .esp.
This is why every single mod in the package I pieced together are in .ESP format
I found these 2 replies in another topic that I thought would bennefit this one as well. I responed to both of them.
deadeyes989 said this:
QUOTE
yeah, i always convert them to ESM's... dont u have to?
It depends where you are placing it. Most of the ESM files CANNOT be used in the cache. (At least for me they didn't)
darth_turtur replied with this:
QUOTE
I think this will be a topic that will always be up for debate. Regardless of what method you use (cache, hack morrowind.xbe, etc.) both formats WILL work.
This is not true. From my own personal experience and for as long as I have been modding, I have gotten .esps to work in the CACHE that WOULD NOT work as an ESM. Also there are mods that simply won't work in the CACHE in either format. But after hex editing the Morrowind.xbe file 85% of the mods that wouldn't work in the CACHE (Either as an ESP or ESM) worked in the game directory. I was mistaken about something I said before. I said that the only thing hex editing the Morrowind.xbe file does, is change the location of where the mods get played from.
Turned out I was wrong about that.
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Now as to why Land masses do not show up on the X-Box Map. and 1 reason the x-box has a problem with land mass mods.
The x-box map file: Morrowind.esm.map
Is already set in stone that is programmed to uncover the sections you go into. Trying to add or get something to show up on something already locked won't work. In order for land masses to show up on the in-game map, you would need to get the mod compatible with every part of the game an esp runs off of. I'm 95% sure this is what would need to be done in order to pull this off:
1. Open up the Morrowind.esm.map file and edit it in compliance to the new mod or landmass.
2. Edit the Morrowind.ini file to accept any weather, water, light, fog,..etc..etc.. changes that would be in the mod
3. Draw out the graphics of the buildings and land mass and configure that so it co-incides with all the other .esp data reading files
4. You would definately need to make the map part of the mod an ESM file.
5. Or you can just forget about all that and edit the Computer Morrwind.esm.map to work on the X-Box. Oh yeah just to save you the trouble, I have already tried to place the PC Morrowind.esm.map into the data files section, and the game locked up
This is about all I can think of right now that would need to be done.
This post has been edited by grifter66: Jul 16 2005, 07:17 PM
Post by: gamer69a on July 16, 2005, 08:55:00 PM
hmmm, im thinkin of a 9 rating for this.
the thing that stopped it being a 10 was the fact i had to re-read a few bits to understand them, but thats my fault.
Well done.
Post by: dragos_kai on July 17, 2005, 07:15:00 PM
very informative, other than the fact that you are basically pressing the issue of only ESPs, when you have posted in many other posts that you still need ESMs for some mods (eg. Races) basically anything that has extra textures, now maybe I am just a stilly noob... probally so, or maybe I just misread somewhere... oh well...
Post by: grifter66 on July 17, 2005, 07:46:00 PM
I thought by posting this part in the topic near the top that it would be clear about what I getting at:
QUOTE
I also want to be clear that I'm not saying that ESMs don't work or that you shouldn't use them (Obviously some people haven't had a problem with this).
All I'm doing is providing a detailed explination of what happens to a mod and how it interacts with the game when it being used. In short this is to help people have a better understanding of how this whole thing works.
All I'm doing is providing a detailed explination of what happens to a mod and how it interacts with the game when it being used. In short this is to help people have a better understanding of how this whole thing works.
This post has been edited by grifter66: Jul 18 2005, 02:47 AM
Post by: dragos_kai on July 18, 2005, 07:44:00 PM
Post by: grifter66 on July 18, 2005, 09:48:00 PM
But, I'm not saying/telling anyone what to use or do. I'm saying how mods interact with-in the game and which format is better to use overall.
I haven't had a problem using any mod on my list as an ESP including
LANDMASSES
RACES
or any other huge mod.
and the ones that didn't work as an ESP didn't work as an ESM either and Vice versa.
I'm just saying that whatever you use it's either going to work or it's not. Usually (Except in really rare cases) If a mod gives you a problem, then it will give you a problem regardless. It doesn't matter what format you are using ESP or ESM.
But the probability of a mod not working properly as an ESM is higher that if it's an ESP. Just because of how the game structures the file layout aned reads the ESM and ESP.
Take everything into consideration about what I said above and you will see why over all ESp is a better format to use than ESM. But I always say use what you want to and make your own decision.
This post has been edited by grifter66: Jul 19 2005, 06:05 AM
Post by: darth_turtur on July 19, 2005, 01:30:00 PM
QUOTE(dragos_kai @ Jul 18 2005, 07:19 PM)
hai, understood, but you still should use ESMs when using anything with Textures, right? Just trying to get this 100% straightened out
Not necessarily. The same mod using the same format (esm or esp) may produce different results on each user. As i've said time and again, try them both to see which one has a better result for you. Someone may be using the Better Heads mod as an esp and another an esm. Guess what, both of them probably work.
As a general rule of thumb, go with the format (for any mod) that works. I can almost guarantee you that just because 80% of the mods I run are in esm doesn't mean that it'll work the same for you too.