Post by: dr.no on October 04, 2003, 12:18:00 AM
Post by: xorange on October 04, 2003, 12:42:00 AM
| QUOTE (dr.no @ Oct 4 2003, 09:18 AM) |
| Good idea imho. What about using .xml as a basis for those files? |
The Cartographer file "mapkeys.ctg" looks like it's in XML format.
Any of the other files could be in XML too if the developers made their apps supprt the format.
I have a nice little XML editor that I'm using to work with Cartographer's PEP files, so I'm somewhat familiar with the format so far.
Post by: eXentric on October 04, 2003, 12:46:00 AM
Cartographer uses the Class Type and Element Types in an object model to look up the images and descriptions of each object. These entries are stored in resource tables. The Class Type isn't used too extensively right now, but the idea was to allow plugins to specify the class of object that they can modify and Cartographer would automatically filter plugins based on the item that was selected. This has never been implemented.
The item type, obviously, is a little more important to Cartographer. This is how we determine which image (not fully implemented) and description to display on the screen.
Cartographer could be modified in three ways:
1. Someone gives me a list of every possible class ("Vehicle", "Projectile", etc) and every possible element ("Wounded Marine Sitting", etc) and I can allow those values to be used in the XML.
2. I allow you to put whatever you want in the Class and Element attributes. However, the item will loose any future plugin functionality and Cartographer will not be able to display an image or description for the item (except for, possibly, a supplied name) if Cartographer doesn't know the values you supply.
3. Make it so that even the elements images and text can be stored as part of the CTG file. This would require a lot of re-work and would loose multi-spoken-language support. I still haven't seen any interest expressed in the translation of Cartographer to another spoken lanuage, so this may be a mute point. (Solution #3 still does not address the plugin problem inherent to #2). Cartographer would be quite a bit larger with this soltion, because the images would be stored in base64 encoding (rather then in binary resources).
Any other suggestions are welcome. Solution #1 is obviously preferable, but I don't know if anyone wants to take the time (lord knows I didn't). Solution #2 would also work, with some limitations in future expansion. Solution #3 requires quite a re-working of the engine, but I could do it also. It does seem like the least beneficial option, however...
Post by: eXentric on October 04, 2003, 01:39:00 AM
I have already written a converter that sucks in output files in multiple directories and spits out a CTG file. That converter is what was used to generate the CTG files for Beta 5. The converter works for any output file regarless of region. That's why the PAL CTG file on the Cartographer website supports just as many items as the NTSC version.
The converter, however, simply ignores any Class types or Element types that it doesn't understand. That's why not everything is in there.
If someone were to take approach #1, it would be very beneficial because my converter could then understand every single item in the game and spit out a CTG file containing everything. In this case, class types would obviously become highly important because they would need to be used for filtering purposes.
I would have to add filtering into Cartographer if we go this route, but I had planned to do so at some point anyway...
The CTG file is XML. CTG was just made up as short for Cartographer, but I'm perfectly fine with calling it something else and making it a common format. If this was done correctly, the file really shouldn't change (because it would have everything). It could then be used by multiple applications.
Post by: xorange on October 04, 2003, 08:41:00 AM
| QUOTE (eXentric @ Oct 4 2003, 09:46 AM) |
| Cartographer supports this, in theory. However, I chose to limit your choices when it comes to Class Type and Element Type. There is a reason for this. Cartographer uses the Class Type and Element Types in an object model to look up the images and descriptions of each object. These entries are stored in resource tables. The Class Type isn't used too extensively right now, but the idea was to allow plugins to specify the class of object that they can modify and Cartographer would automatically filter plugins based on the item that was selected. This has never been implemented. The item type, obviously, is a little more important to Cartographer. This is how we determine which image (not fully implemented) and description to display on the screen. Cartographer could be modified in three ways: 1. Someone gives me a list of every possible class ("Vehicle", "Projectile", etc) and every possible element ("Wounded Marine Sitting", etc) and I can allow those values to be used in the XML. 2. I allow you to put whatever you want in the Class and Element attributes. However, the item will loose any future plugin functionality and Cartographer will not be able to display an image or description for the item (except for, possibly, a supplied name) if Cartographer doesn't know the values you supply. 3. Make it so that even the elements images and text can be stored as part of the CTG file. This would require a lot of re-work and would loose multi-spoken-language support. I still haven't seen any interest expressed in the translation of Cartographer to another spoken lanuage, so this may be a mute point. (Solution #3 still does not address the plugin problem inherent to #2). Cartographer would be quite a bit larger with this soltion, because the images would be stored in base64 encoding (rather then in binary resources). Any other suggestions are welcome. Solution #1 is obviously preferable, but I don't know if anyone wants to take the time (lord knows I didn't). Solution #2 would also work, with some limitations in future expansion. Solution #3 requires quite a re-working of the engine, but I could do it also. It does seem like the least beneficial option, however... |
Hmm...I'm not entirely sure if I understand what you mean in the first part of this message, but I think I get the picture.
I think some of the terms we're using are being used differently in diff. contexts, thus confusing things a bit, but oh well...
I am interested in helping in any way with whichever method would be best for you & the further development of Cartographer.
Resolving #1 does sound like the way to go.
I'd very much like to discuss further what exactly you could use help with to acheive this functionality.
Here's an example of what I was trying to make Cartographer do for me (naive maybe, I don't know...I just experiment):
<element class="Equipment" type="RocketLauncherAmmo" offset="23442F8" value="4C659880" />
<element class="Equipment" type="ShotgunAmmo" offset="2342D78" value="A80B9280" />
<element class="Equipment" type="SniperRifleAmmo" offset="2344D58" value="34059B80" />
<element class="Model" type="characters/cyborg/cyborg" offset="233c918" value="649b7280" />
<element class="Model" type="characters/cyborg/fp/fp" offset="23488d8" value="2c8da980" />
<element class="Model" type="item collections/powerups/powerups" offset="2348158" value="5c1da980" />
You can see how I set the element type to show the path for Models.
I figured this would be the most effective because then you could take advantage of ordering elements by both class and path.
Very similar to the way the Element Editor is set up right now, just a bit different.
This would probably require a smaller font be used in the element editor.
Well, anyway...I like Cartographer a lot, I think the new release is great, I think it also has a lot more potential and I'd like to help if I can.
Post by: Terminat0r on October 04, 2003, 08:47:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| 1. Someone gives me a list of every possible class ("Vehicle", "Projectile", etc) and every possible element ("Wounded Marine Sitting", etc) and I can allow those values to be used in the XML. |
can you please be more specific
I think the beta 7 should have a filter and add Scenery. I will add the scenery to the ctg if thats ok?
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 04, 2003, 09:07:00 AM
Post by: eXentric on October 04, 2003, 11:01:00 AM
I took a moment to take one of my source files and convert it to HTML. Although you may not know C#, hopefully you can get a little more of an idea what I'm talking about. Here's the link:
http://www.solersoft...ElementInfo.htm
If you'll notice, there is an enumeration for every supported class type and every supported element type. Further down in the file, you can see that I get two resource managers (one for strings and one for images). These resource managers are used to get the images and descriptions for every item.
Basically, if we really want this to work smootly, two things have to occur:
1. We would need to finish off the ElementClass enumeration and the ElementType enumeration (seen at the top of that page).
2. Someone would need to put descriptions in for each new element type. Images would be nice too, but I don't have images for everything in the system as it stands now. I was planning to work on that next...
Once those two things are done, a fairly small amount of work would need to be put into finishing the converter. But, I could easily do that and then we would have everything.
Any thoughts?
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 04, 2003, 11:04:00 AM
Post by: eXentric on October 04, 2003, 11:14:00 AM
http://www.solersoft...verterParse.htm
Hope that clears it up. If not, let me know.
Post by: xorange on October 04, 2003, 11:17:00 AM
| QUOTE (CaicedoLuis @ Oct 4 2003, 08:04 PM) |
| i could make it generate a PPF. i did have the same prob it patched the first 3 or so cahces correctly and worked but then after that it didnt work i tried to fix that but couldnt find the problem |
That would be great if you could make MapPatcher generate PPFs!
I'm going to put up a page on my webhost this afternoon where I
can host the files I have created.
I'll send you a link asap.
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 04, 2003, 11:32:00 AM
EDIT - Forgot to post my AIM!
CaicedoLuisA
Post by: xorange on October 04, 2003, 11:55:00 AM
| QUOTE (CaicedoLuis @ Oct 4 2003, 08:32 PM) |
| everyone post ur AIM/AOL so we can go into a chatroom and talk about a universal format EDIT - Forgot to post my AIM! CaicedoLuisA |
Hmm...message boards work best for me.
I'm on these boards, while I'm re-writing my resume, searching for a jobbyjob, hacking/playing Halo, trolling for pr0n on urdx.com, editing offset lists, auctioning/buying on Ebay and working on a PEP for Cartographer all at the same time.
If I tried to chat too I think either I'd explode or my stupid Athlon would start overheating.
Universal format...hmm...
Personally I like the format your hexranges.txt file is in because it's very easy to convert the entire ntsc_full_class files to it. (uh, PAL too I'm sure)
I like XML because it seems very functional and allows for a lot of customizing and expanding.
Post by: eXentric on October 04, 2003, 01:12:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Hmm....so, up at the top we'd need something like this |
Thats correct. And anything else that's missing.
I'd prefer not to post my IM on a forum, although I'll give it to anyone that PMs me. I'm headed out to dinner right now. Perhaps we could hook up in an IRC channel if this is that urgent.
xorange, you are on the right track. Personally, I feel that XML is a good way to go (whether its the format I've already defined or a completely different one). It is very easy to read and very structured. You can easily represent hierarchies with it and objects can have attributes. To me as a programmer, it just makes sense (it's like a database in a portable file). Not to mention its SUPER easy to parse in .Net, although I understand not as easy to parse in other languages.
I'll check back later.
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 04, 2003, 03:23:00 PM
Post by: Terminat0r on October 04, 2003, 09:29:00 PM
[email protected]
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 05, 2003, 07:47:00 AM
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 05, 2003, 01:06:00 PM
I erased the Funtion of making PPFs in Map Modder cus i was gonna change it to XPF Studio but that sorta died. i just gotta rewrite everything (no biggie tho) also i think having the ability to make EXE patches is kinda useless because most ppl patch with HCE
Next on list is make it read XML and Make PPFs
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 05, 2003, 06:35:00 PM
Post by: xorange on October 06, 2003, 12:33:00 AM
| QUOTE (CaicedoLuis @ Oct 5 2003, 04:47 PM) |
| i could make Map Patcher allow the user to open more files. if u can make the files and send them to me. |
Ok, I'm done with the text files for MapPatcher.
You can get 'em here: http://hside.zencomp...m/hexranges.rar
Post by: eXentric on October 06, 2003, 06:34:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Btw, eXentric, the Summaries are not absolutely necessary, right? |
Functionality wise, no they're not necessary. But, try to think about the end-user. I would say that the name is mandatory (/weapons/projectiles/blah/blah isn't very user-friendly). The descriptions could be left out and added over time. I think it is very nice for the user to have descriptions of things, especially ones that are less well-known. Otherwise, the user has to change it and then play the game and try and figure out what changed. That's just my humble opinion though.
Also, anyone that's looking into XML should _NOT_ be looking at generating the XML manually (i.e. by writing to a text file). If you are writing in .Net, there are extensive tools for reading and writing XML in an object-orientated way. If you are writing in VB (or even in C++) you should follow that link that I posted last time to get familiar with MSs free XML DOM object which can be used by any program that can use a COM object.
Manually writing open and close tags and attirbutes is NOT FUN at all. The XML DOM gives you a very object-orientated way to do this all in code. Like
XmlNode MapNode = Document.CreateNode("map")
XmlAttribute NameAttribute = Document.CreateAttribute("name")
NameAttribute.InnerText = "a10"
MapNode.Attributes.Add(NameAttribute)
Thats may seem like quite a few steps to put an attribute on an object, but when you're writing a converter and dealing with thousands of entries, it becomes very easy to write methods like:
AddMap(string Name, string Title, MapType MType)
When / if we agree on a format, I could easily make an object model for dealing with these files. I could make it a common assembly for sharing across any .Net application and I can even register it for COM interop so older VB and C++ programs could even use it. You could then do stuff like this:
foreach (Map M in MapManger.Maps)
{
Debug.WriteLine(M.Title);
}
(I can do that now in Cartographer)
Just thinking out loud...
Post by: xorange on October 06, 2003, 12:37:00 PM
Of course, the lists I am making for Cartographer aren't
even XML. I was just getting my projects mixed up.
For PEPs I'm using a nice little XML editor called XMLEditPro 1.2
It's small and it works nicely.
Yes, I definitely understand what you mean about the summaries.
I agree. I just figured it will probably take a while to complete all
the summaries for every single element class 'and' type, and just wanted
to see if we can still test the functionality of the data without them.
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 06, 2003, 01:51:00 PM
*Still working on PPF Creation
Post by: eXentric on October 06, 2003, 03:18:00 PM
Post by: eXentric on October 06, 2003, 03:21:00 PM
Just trying to think ahead.
Post by: xorange on October 06, 2003, 03:57:00 PM
| QUOTE (eXentric @ Oct 7 2003, 12:18 AM) |
| Thats fine with me. xorange, If you ever want to work together and make a comprehesive list of Classes and (at least) names for the items, I could have Cartographer editing all items in a very short amount of time. I'm just a little proud (maybe too proud) of the user interface and how stupidly simple Cartographer is to use. I dont want to loose that. So, I dont think I'll really be updating items until I can get nice and pretty class names and at least decent names for the items rather then their path names (/vehicles/warthog/whatever/whatever). Sorry, not trying to crash the party... |
No worries. Sounds good to me.
Here's where I'm at so far...
(Please let me know if I'm on the right track! I'm just working off of the data format in the source sample you gave me a link to.)
I have created a file containing all the Element Classes and space for a summary for each that looks like this:
/// <summary>
///
/// </summary>
Actor,
/// <summary>
///
/// </summary>
Actor Variant,
/// <summary>
///
/// </summary>
Animation Trigger,
/// <summary>
///
/// </summary>
Antenna,
/// <summary>
///
/// </summary>
Biped,
/// <summary>
///
/// </summary>
Bitmap,
etc...
This should have every known class.
I used Silent Cartographer as a "template" because it's index contains the most classes...71 I think.
What I'm doing now is gathering all the Element Types from each Class from all levels.
Once I get this together I'll take a look at all the names and make sure they are all unique and format them appropriately (with summary lines & stuff).
Next I'll maker a big mapkeys.ctg with all elements for all maps and friendly names instead of paths.
Then it's time to write nice little summaries for each element class & type and try to capture more representative images, right?
Post by: xorange on October 06, 2003, 04:05:00 PM
| QUOTE (eXentric @ Oct 7 2003, 12:21 AM) |
| CaicedoLuis, just ourt of curiosity: If I were to provide you with a really really simple object library at some point to read the same XML file format easily, would you consider integrating it? Just trying to think ahead. |
Shhh!
Just kidding.
Heh...I just don't want Caicedo to jump into XML yet
because I haven't put together a new XML data file yet, like mapkeys.ctg,
and I'm eager to use MapPatcher for some projects I have in mind.
I'm so selfish. hehe
Post by: eXentric on October 06, 2003, 04:28:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Here's where I'm at so far... |
Damn, you go xorange! Lemme know when you're getting close. I'll start working on filtering here as soon as I have time so it will be available when ready.
| QUOTE |
| Then it's time to write nice little summaries for each element class & type and try to capture more representative images, right? |
You are correct sir. Classes only have a name, but Items have a name, a description and an image. Names are important, descriptions after that and images after that. We agreed that descriptions and images are optional so they can be done at a later time or not done at all.
| QUOTE |
| I'm so selfish. hehe |
Heh heh heh. Okay, sounds good. I like well-defined standards because they fuel progression. But, I don't want to take away your precious resources either!!!
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 06, 2003, 04:29:00 PM
Yea i would consider having XML but like xorange said I dont wanna jump into XML just yet
Post by: eXentric on October 12, 2003, 10:16:00 AM
I've been busy on other things myself too. I've been looking at the Halo PC map format too. I'm hoping we can get the output files for Halo PC...
NEWay, just checkin in.
Talk to you l8r
eXe
Post by: XBOX War3z on October 12, 2003, 11:43:00 AM
| QUOTE (eXentric @ Oct 12 2003, 07:16 PM) |
| Any news here guys? Seems like this one's gathering a little dust I've been busy on other things myself too. I've been looking at the Halo PC map format too. I'm hoping we can get the output files for Halo PC... NEWay, just checkin in. Talk to you l8r eXe |
output files?
you know that Iron_Forge has them on http://66.98.159.194...sets/retail.php
Post by: Terminat0r on October 14, 2003, 12:24:00 PM
or we can talk on haloskins cartog forum
Post by: spgurley on October 14, 2003, 05:17:00 PM
EDIT: AIM, MSN, YIM, ICQ are in my sig
Post by: xorange on October 15, 2003, 08:27:00 AM
| QUOTE (eXentric @ Oct 12 2003, 07:16 PM) |
| Any news here guys? Seems like this one's gathering a little dust I've been busy on other things myself too. I've been looking at the Halo PC map format too. I'm hoping we can get the output files for Halo PC... NEWay, just checkin in. Talk to you l8r eXe |
Hi!
I'm still actively working on the project.
I just haven't been able to find time to post.
I need your advice eXentric.
Here's where I'm at now...
I have a list of all the Element Classes in the game,
and now I have a FULL list of all the Element Types
from all levels.
The problem is though that we're back to the "path vs friendly name"
issue I think.
Here's an example of what I mean:
Sample of my existing list (Element Types listed by path):
characters/hunter/hunter
characters/hunter/hunter_major
characters/hunter/melee
characters/hunter/powerup
characters/hunter/shaders/fuel_gun
characters/hunter/shaders/hunter_arm_and_legs
characters/hunter/shaders/hunter_arm_huge
characters/hunter/shaders/hunter_head
characters/hunter/shaders/hunter_torso
Sample of "easy friendly names" (Remove everything but the primary name):
hunter
hunter_major
melee
powerup
fuel_gun
hunter_arm_and_legs
hunter_arm_huge
hunter_head
hunter_torso
Sample of proposed "ideal friendly names" (These could be different of course):
Hunter
Hunter_Major
Hunter_melee
Hunter_powerup
Hunter_fuel_gun_shader
Hunter_arm_and_legs_shader
Hunter_arm_huge_shader
Hunter_head_shader
Hunter_torso_shader
...or something like that.
As you can see, by using the "primary name" of the Element Type only (2nd ex.) it is hard to distinguish between a shader or bitmap, or hunter melee and cyborg melee, etc etc etc
The ideal names are nice, but this file contains almost 8,000 items!
So you can see that renaming all those items would take forever.
I propose that the only reasonable and accurately descriptive method of listing all the Element Types in Cartographer would be to use the path.
(Descriptions can of course still be used to elaborate, but I think that rather than the path name confusing people when they look at it, it would instead make it easier to figure out exactly what the item is that they are swapping)
I am open to any and all suggestions!
Cluis: Hi! How's it going with Map Patcher? Let me know if there's anything I can help with.
Post by: spgurley on October 15, 2003, 11:42:00 AM
i have xbox v1.1 and 120gb hdd, ntsc, unlocked hdd
Post by: spgurley on October 15, 2003, 02:03:00 PM
its all messed up
Post by: spgurley on October 15, 2003, 04:05:00 PM
help me
Post by: spgurley on October 15, 2003, 07:51:00 PM
Post by: XBOX War3z on October 16, 2003, 12:55:00 AM
Post by: spgurley on October 16, 2003, 02:37:00 AM
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 16, 2003, 07:03:00 AM
im working on map patcher slowly but surely
Post by: xorange on October 17, 2003, 01:46:00 AM
| QUOTE (CaicedoLuis @ Oct 16 2003, 04:03 PM) |
| i havent had the internet for a while but im back!!!!!!!!!!! w00t im working on map patcher slowly but surely |
Doh!
Good to hear. Looking forward to the next version!
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 17, 2003, 08:03:00 PM
if you could get me the PAL offset files that would be cool
name them like so mapname.pal.map (i.e. Blood Gulch.pal.map)
this would work on pal and ntsc and that changes file will be easily added. damn i shoulda never have deleted that ppf routine i had now i have to rewrite it and i forgot almost everything
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 19, 2003, 06:07:00 AM
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 19, 2003, 03:17:00 PM
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 20, 2003, 12:05:00 PM
Post by: spgurley on October 20, 2003, 02:47:00 PM
Post by: xorange on October 20, 2003, 03:45:00 PM
| QUOTE (CaicedoLuis @ Oct 20 2003, 09:05 PM) |
| xorange i need those pal files then i can give you a beta |
Heyhey I'm done with the files.
I'll PM you the link.
Post by: spgurley on October 20, 2003, 06:15:00 PM
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 21, 2003, 12:21:00 PM
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 21, 2003, 05:25:00 PM
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 24, 2003, 09:26:00 AM
Post by: CaicedoLuis on October 28, 2003, 11:11:00 AM