Post by: twistedsymphony on October 16, 2006, 09:06:00 AM
QUOTE
The Terra Soft Solutions site has been updated to announce that the Yellow Dog Linux distribution will be available for the Sony PlayStation 3 at console launch:
QUOTE
YDL v5.0 is slated for release mid-November with support for the Sony PS3 first, and support for the former Apple PowerPC product line to follow. Any updates required to support the Apple PowerPC systems following the release for PS3 will be made available via a free download.
http://www.linuxgame...action=flatview
This is interesting, and it suggests that perhaps the Native PS3 OS is not Linux (or at least not open), considering this distro must be downloaded. At least it will be available at launch.
I'm curious if they're going to allow the download through the console itself of if you'll have to download it on your PC and install it. Either way it looks like Linux development will be cheaper to get into then it was with the PS2.
Also the above link has some links to PS3 development resources (if you're curious as to what's available for that stuff).
Post by: throwingks on October 16, 2006, 11:14:00 AM
Post by: twistedsymphony on October 16, 2006, 11:45:00 AM
QUOTE(throwingks @ Oct 16 2006, 01:21 PM) 
Do you think Sony is doing this to keep people from legally modding their PS3 under the umbrella of "so I can put Linux on it?" This is a pretty smart move on their part to keep piracy from happening.
I believe that's EXACTLY the reason.
The Linux Development Kit didn't appear until they were approached by a Linux group stating that they wanted an official Linux distro, and if they didn't provide a distro they would hack the console to put Linux on it which would in-inadvertently open the door to piracy. Sony obliged and they got the PS2 Linux developers kit.
The same offer was brought to MS's attention and they pretty much told them to screw off. And IIRC that's where we got exploits and TSOP mods from (as well as some other innovations)
Bunnie would have hacked the console regardless though.I believe Sony recognizes this as a peace offering keeping Linux fanboys from tearing their security to shreds, which is why they're preemptively allowing a Linux distro... MS on the other hand is just too damn proud to allow their biggest competitor's software to run on their hardware.
Personally I don't think any corporation cares about the EXCUSE of using Linux on their hardware as a reason to crack it, or any excuse for that matter. There are Linux fanatics who DO actually care about running Linux on whatever hardware they can find regardless of the obstacles.
Basically if you look at the security as a wall with a locked door. the Linux fanatics are asking for a key to get in, and if you don't give them a key then they're just going to bust down a wall and let everyone else in with them (namely Pirates)
Post by: twistedsymphony on October 16, 2006, 01:14:00 PM
Post by: throwingks on October 16, 2006, 01:35:00 PM
I would say it is definitely a PC more than it is a game console. This thing will absolutely be better than an Xbox360/HTPC for media. It won't have any restrictions. It will be better than Xbox Media Center for that matter. There will be no media it cannot play. Hell, you could use it as a front end for a HD-PVR.
If all of this is true, this is pretty enticing. XBMC is the main reason I turn on my Xbox anymore.
http://www.mythtv.org/index.php
Check out some screen shots:
http://www.mythtv.or...me=MythFeatures
Post by: Pheidias on October 16, 2006, 02:11:00 PM
Post by: Mr Invader on October 16, 2006, 03:36:00 PM
But basically the PS3 will be able to do things that a modded PS2/PSP will do? That sounds pretty cool. If this is officially going to be on the console without download (or download for a nominal fee), then i think thats what Sony should include in their advertising for buying a PS3, since it seems to be doing poorly in everything else.
Post by: henmill on October 16, 2006, 05:50:00 PM
Post by: twistedsymphony on October 16, 2006, 06:49:00 PM
I guess I just don't understand why no one gave a shit about PS2 Linux but suddendly it's a ZOMG! Features on the PS3
Post by: Mr Invader on October 16, 2006, 07:42:00 PM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Oct 16 2006, 07:56 PM)
I think people forget that they had linux on the PS2 as well...
I guess I just don't understand why no one gave a shit about PS2 Linux but suddendly it's a ZOMG! Features on the PS3
I thought the Linux for the PS2 was just a web browser
If the PS3 can be a home server, would it halt the gaming capabilites as long as the server was up? what about the media center?
And why is it so hard for Sony to come up with software for themselves? Why do they have to have so many different companies supporting them (xfire, gamespy, and now linux)?
Post by: twistedsymphony on October 16, 2006, 09:06:00 PM
Post by: henmill on October 16, 2006, 09:34:00 PM
and I guess you could say that I did forget about PS2 linux because i've never modded or looked into modding a PS2. but PS3 linux apparently will require no hacking/exploits, which is appealing to the less tech-savvy or anti-warranty voiders out there.
Post by: Pheidias on October 16, 2006, 10:52:00 PM
Post by: buttface96 on October 16, 2006, 11:16:00 PM
Post by: silentbob343 on October 17, 2006, 01:14:00 AM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Oct 16 2006, 08:56 PM)
I think people forget that they had linux on the PS2 as well...
I guess I just don't understand why no one gave a shit about PS2 Linux but suddendly it's a ZOMG! Features on the PS3
lol that is a good question. How was the PS2 linux community, any media center type front ends? Might be interesting to play around with.
QUOTE(buttface96 @ Oct 17 2006, 01:23 AM)
well linux sounds cool, but I dont think its the right way to go. Yes sony is trying to appeal to us modders, but they arent looking at the average gamer (who makes up most of the gaming community). m$ is more appealing to the average gamer, most my friends have never even heard of linux and are most interested in a Gaming machine rather than a multimedia box
Who says you can't have both? Anyway, Sony keeps touting the PS3 as the multimedia center of your living room so if running a Linux distro makes it that much closer, great. Nobody is forcing the "gamers" to run Linux and it is a nice value added feature for those of us who would like to take advantage of it.
You will also have media center type capabilites via the stock XMB GUI just like on the PSP if you don't want to mess with a Linux UI. I'm hopeful somebody will make a front end ala XBMC.
Post by: Exist2Resist on October 17, 2006, 05:05:00 AM
Post by: calderra on October 17, 2006, 05:42:00 AM
QUOTE(Exist2Resist @ Oct 17 2006, 12:12 PM)
Correct me if I'm wrong but running a linux distro on a PS3 woul actually aid piracy, oh and that virus free comment, don't worry i'll make sure i write a couple of viruses for the PS3 linux distro. Ha Ha Ha, just to see how sony handles it.
Something NOBODY will listen to: Linux users make up (less than 10%?) of the home PC market, and the vast majority of those users are professionals who know their security.
WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU BOTHER WRITING VIRUSES FOR THAT!?
It's just a stupid target to aim for. Too few users to be worth going after, and they're all (regardless of OS) trined in countermeasures. You don't shoot for that.
If a million PS3 owners get Linux, the vast majority of which are idiots who have no idea what the software really does but who asked mommy to get it, then it will become a massively smart target. Credit card numbers, usage information... ripe for the picking, and nobody's smart enough to stop it.
And yes, this makes piracy on the PS3 a !!!MASSIVE!!! issue.
-Sony's already said the hard drive should be a standard one you could easily swap out with your PC drive. Copy anything to the PS3 hard drive, and it can hit the internet in moments.
-Sony's also said the BluRay drive can be ripped out and used normally. Which means its copy protection probably isnt' massive. Couple that with Linux, copy a gme to the hard drive, then put that hard drive in a PC. Voila!
-Couple that with e-distribution, you don't even need to rip game discs! Just download an eDistribution copy to the HD, Linux your way to an FTP, and you have free downloadable games online!
Xbox 360 has been out almost a full year, and the extent of available modding is still limited to pirated games because the older DVD drives in some units were easily hackable. Other than that, nothing has moved. Contrast that with Xbox, which was (literally) running SNES emulators before launch ever happened.
Will PS3 be as secure as 360? Oh hell no. Sony went backwards from the Microsoft model, if anything.
Post by: grim_d on October 17, 2006, 05:53:00 AM
Post by: twistedsymphony on October 17, 2006, 07:06:00 AM
QUOTE(Pheidias @ Oct 17 2006, 12:59 AM)
The ps2 linux didn't require any modding either
There was no modding required. "Official Distro" means it was an official disc pressed by Sony themselves.
QUOTE(kizmet @ Oct 17 2006, 01:06 AM)
ps2 linux sucked cause of the weak 32MB of the ps2, now the ps3 might be able to do some interesting things if they dont close it up like the ps2... myth would have to rewritten to support the cell processor i believe.
If that's why PS2 Linux sucked then PS3 Linux will suck for the same reasons, 256MB is nothing for today's applications (even Linux applications) the extra 256 for video specific tasks is great for games but it's worthless for Linux.
QUOTE(silentbob343 @ Oct 17 2006, 03:21 AM)
lol that is a good question. How was the PS2 linux community, any media center type front ends? Might be interesting to play around with.
From what I saw the PS2 Linux community was pretty apathetic. I saw the occasional college project but for the most part people didn't care.
Most people could care less about linux... and most linux users could care less about running it on hardware not designed for general PC tasks. I't not a niche market... it's a next-to-non-existant market that is overwhelmingly vocal on the internet.
QUOTE(silentbob343 @ Oct 17 2006, 03:21 AM)
You will also have media center type capabilites via the stock XMB GUI just like on the PSP if you don't want to mess with a Linux UI. I'm hopeful somebody will make a front end ala XBMC.
There are Linux media apps but nothing like XBMC, or XP MCE, basically they're just media players that still require a keyboard and mouse interface. Linux is a Full Fledged OS so any media player will be an application that runs on top of that.
Myth TV is the closet Linux based Media Center you've got but IIRC it's a whole Linux distro in itself. meaning that you wont be running it unless it is officially released and blessed by Sony.
QUOTE(Exist2Resist @ Oct 17 2006, 07:12 AM)
Correct me if I'm wrong but running a linux distro on a PS3 woul actually aid piracy, oh and that virus free comment, don't worry i'll make sure i write a couple of viruses for the PS3 linux distro. Ha Ha Ha, just to see how sony handles it.
No running Linux on a PS3 would not in any way shape or form aid piracy... NOT AT ALL.
The distro's are officially licensed by Sony, for all intents and purposes the disc is just as locked down as any game. Chances are you'll be able to burn the disc to CD but it will still be signed meaning you wont be able to modify the data.
When The console runs Linux it can't run it's own OS meaning that it also can't run games... you have about as much chance of playing a PS3 game through PS3 Linux as you do playing a PS3 game on a PC running Linuix...
Linux on the PS2 did not allow for piracy either, In reality Linux on the Xbox didn't allow for piracy either.
Linux requires 1 of 2 things to run, ether:
1. An open platform that would allow it to run unsigned Linux code or
2. A official licensed disc that would work with the consoles security.
On a PC the hardware is open, Linux can run.
On the PS2 Sony licensed a disc, so Linux was bound to the security as much as any game was
On the Xbox MS refused to allow Linux so the first hacked the console to make it an open platform, THEN ran Linux
On the PS3 Sony is licensing a disc, so Linux will be bound to the security as much as any game is.
Linux on the PS3 is no different then Linux on a PC.. you wont run PS3 games through it, and for most people Linux apps aren't really worth much... Not to mention you'll most likely need a keyboard and mouse to use it.
--------
Imagine this... For all intents and purposes, it would be like owning a PS3... a video game console, and then you can shut the console off, and when you turn it back on it's a Linux PC instead of a PS3... THAT is how console Linux works.
Post by: Pheidias on October 17, 2006, 08:51:00 AM
And are you saying that making a awesome mediacenter with the distro won't be possible? I think that will be one of the first things to come of it imo.
Post by: epsilon72 on October 17, 2006, 09:32:00 AM
It's kinda depressing that it will run off of a disc instead of the hard drive...
Post by: kizmet on October 17, 2006, 10:26:00 AM
QUOTE(epsilon72 @ Oct 17 2006, 10:39 AM)
This may be a long shot, but is there any chance we'll see emulators, for instance, being able to run on this?
It's kinda depressing that it will run off of a disc instead of the hard drive...
dont see why not, im pretty sure its why sega is not completly on board with it own virtual console. looks like sony may be going full swing this time
QUOTE
Under basic agreement with SCEI, Terra Soft was granted a unique opportunity
to develop and bring to market a complete Linux OS for the Sony PLAYSTATION
3. In development of Yellow Dog Linux v5.0, Terra Soft integrated and
enhanced code from Barcelona Supercomputing Center, Sony Group, and Fedora in
order to offer the following:
- kernel 2.6.16
- gcc 3.4.4 and glibc 2.4
- Cell SDK 1.1
- OpenOffice.org 2.0.2
- FireFox 1.5.0 and Thunderbird 1.5.0
- Nautilus 2.1.4
... and a suite of Personal Accessories, Development Tools; Sound & Video,
Internet, and Networking applications.
Post by: twistedsymphony on October 17, 2006, 10:58:00 AM
QUOTE(Pheidias @ Oct 17 2006, 10:58 AM)
First I don't understand how my comment about ps2 linux didn't requiere a modded ps2, in response to henmills misconception, could possibly be a misconception of linux and then you say the exact same thing I did? did You quote the wrong guy or something Twisted?
And are you saying that making a awesome mediacenter with the distro won't be possible? I think that will be one of the first things to come of it imo.
Making a Media center MIGHT be possible, it really depends on the limits Sony imposes on the distro...
The biggest stumbling block IMO is that for a GREAT media center application as opposed to just a so-so one it really needs to be run as the OS itself, which wont happen with a pre-compiled and licensed Linux OS. Further the console would have to be re-booted whenever you wanted to switch between movies and games
Also IIRC Linux has some shortcomings when it comes to DVD (and undoubtedly Blu-Ray) playback being that there are no official media players the copy protections on the discs must be broken to play them. I'm not sure exactly where this stands but I know it's been the subject of more then one high profile lawsuit over personal backups.
the PS2 had a homebrew media center as well... but it wasn't that good and hardly anyone seemed to care. The GC has an MP3 player/streamer but I've never met anyone who actually uses it.
I think the other thing is the modding community. The Xbox modding community is huge, and very helpful in terms of improving things for the greater good of all. Most of the teams work with their projects open source, and even those that don't construct them in a generic way that would allow other teams to make use of that tech as well. For instance team Xecuter makes the X2 bioses but they write them in a way that they can still be used for TSOP flashing, exploits, or on other modchips. They could have very easily written them so that they only work on their own chips.
The PS2 modding community is very competitive and self-centered by comparison. Go over to ps2newz.net (Xbox-Scene's PS2 sister site) And see how many tutorials they have availble... chances are the only thing you'll find are links to chip install instructions on the "Team's" website. Ask for help and you'll probably find people telling you to just hire someone to install it for you...
Teams don't share info, almost all of the projects are closed source, and any development outside of saleable products is shut down by the big teams by making their products conveniently incompatible. Not to mention all but 1 team make their bioses proprietary to their chips and non flash-able, so you have to buy new chips whenever you want to upgrade and you can't use the chip you like with the bios you like etc.
The tools were available, an XBMC could have easily existed on the PS2 (even without Linux) and the PS3 will probably be capable of having one too. But all the hardware and development tools in the world wont help if the community isn't behind it.
I think this is a big part of where my dis-taste for the PS2 stems from. I tried to get into it, I tried to organize a lot of the data, creat tutorials and FAQs etc. and pretty much there were people who's entire purpose in life was to make mine misrible because the modchip comparison table I created made their chip look bad, or because my own tutorial took away hits to their website it lost them ad revenue. or my promotion of a homebrew app got people questioning why certain chips wouldn't support it. etc etc.
The PS modding community is as corporate driving as Sony themselves... I tried, I got sick of the resistance so I started contributing in areas where people actually seemed to appreciate my efforts.
Post by: bucko on October 17, 2006, 03:16:00 PM
I need a new computer, my AMD Duron aint up to the task nowerdays.
If it's fully identical to the PPC version then I'm all for it.
Sorry been drinking two days straight tired
Post by: henmill on October 17, 2006, 03:24:00 PM
Post by: throwingks on October 17, 2006, 05:42:00 PM
QUOTE
XBMC for PC
>> I think this is the first port from Xbox to PC (Windows).
Some people of the XboxMediaCenter(info) crew have ported their program to PC. This does of course NOT mean any end to XBMC for Xbox whatsoever!
Cause that's not for Linux. I have never used it, so I have no idea what it is like.>> I think this is the first port from Xbox to PC (Windows).
Some people of the XboxMediaCenter(info) crew have ported their program to PC. This does of course NOT mean any end to XBMC for Xbox whatsoever!
http://www.team-mediaportal.com/
In any case, mplayer does run under Linux. That is what it was designed for.
http://www.mplayerhq.hu/
I do use that, but I use the Win32 build. It plays just about everything I throw at it. I use it as a tester for XBMC. If it doesn't play under mplayer, I convert it. That way I know XBMC will play it.
Post by: Mr Invader on October 17, 2006, 07:49:00 PM
This increases piracy, it increases hackers, and it might run crappy on the 256 RAM for the PS3.
But it also broadens interaction with the PS3 because it can run Linux software and a Linux web browser.
So thumbs up or thumbs down on this Yellow Dog Linux 5.0 for the PS3?
Post by: twistedsymphony on October 18, 2006, 05:26:00 AM
QUOTE(Mr Invader @ Oct 17 2006, 09:56 PM)
The main question i have is.... Was this a good move that Sony had for the PS3?
This increases piracy, it increases hackers, and it might run crappy on the 256 RAM for the PS3.
But it also broadens interaction with the PS3 because it can run Linux software and a Linux web browser.
So thumbs up or thumbs down on this Yellow Dog Linux 5.0 for the PS3?
you misspelled decreases... having an officially licensed Linux distribution DECREASES piracy.
I've explained this like 3 times already in this thread... if you missed it just look up, I'm tired of repeating myself.
with that in consideration it's definitly a thumbs up all around for Sony, added functionality with nothing lost.
Post by: Mr Invader on October 18, 2006, 08:14:00 PM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Oct 18 2006, 06:33 AM)
you misspelled decreases... having an officially licensed Linux distribution DECREASES piracy.
I've explained this like 3 times already in this thread... if you missed it just look up, I'm tired of repeating myself.
with that in consideration it's definitly a thumbs up all around for Sony, added functionality with nothing lost.
QUOTE
No running Linux on a PS3 would not in any way shape or form aid piracy... NOT AT ALL.
Sorry, i read that quote wrong, i thought it said it would aid priacy. my bad.
But, i don't seem to understand why it wouldn't encourage modders and hackers, since most modding deals with Linux in the first place (like the original xbox). Wouldn't already having Linux on the PS3 just make it easier for people to mod (software and such?). Or is that what makes it legal with Linux already on there?
Perhaps theres something i'm not getting.
Post by: Analog Kid on October 19, 2006, 09:25:00 AM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Oct 16 2006, 07:56 PM)
I think people forget that they had linux on the PS2 as well...
I guess I just don't understand why no one gave a shit about PS2 Linux but suddendly it's a ZOMG! Features on the PS3
I know I'm a little late to the party, but some of the reasons for the poor uptake are in this news release about the PS2 Linux kit.
List price for the kit was $200, including a 40GB hard drive, network adapter, and VGA cable - but that's still a lot to use an open-source OS on a console with a $300 list price at launch. Plus, your display was REQUIRED to accept sync-on-green VGA input - and since this was before big flat-panels became popular, the kit was effectively limited to use with PC monitors. It's pretty easy to see why the kit wasn't popular, especially compared with the ease of setting up a modded Xbox.
It'll be interesting to see how much of a difference it makes, now that Linux will run on the PS3 as-is.