Post by: HSDEMONZ on August 02, 2007, 04:26:00 PM
Post by: cerealkillajme on August 02, 2007, 04:53:00 PM
I completely agree with pretty much all of it. Especially the last paragraph.
Post by: Deihmos on August 02, 2007, 05:12:00 PM
Post by: commandersafi on August 02, 2007, 05:20:00 PM
QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Aug 2 2007, 06:29 PM) 
Great read Twisted
I completely agree with pretty much all of it. Especially the last paragraph.
Same here
I always enjoy reading your posts Twisted
Post by: Lush on August 02, 2007, 05:32:00 PM
Post by: Albut35 on August 02, 2007, 05:48:00 PM
Post by: TheIrishLad on August 02, 2007, 05:49:00 PM
but I enjoyed it. Your points were well thought out and rationale.
Post by: deilzfcjk on August 02, 2007, 06:37:00 PM
I agree with TS about where these agencies come up with their stats. Anyway, the ice website is flawed. They grouped Crystal Chip in there, probably other in that lineup that shouldn't be there. I know for fact that Crystal chip can't play backups with the stock flash. Its the only ps2 chip that doesn't play backups or copies at all with stock firmware. You have to go find it elsewhere to edit the hex and recompile the code to play backups. Crystal is the only open source chip out there. Still no one has been able to clone them. It just boots homebrew and other region games. It's so screwed. What if you moved from out of the u.s. and have a different encoding standard for your console....you couldnt' play your console. Crystal Team put alot of thought and engineering into that chip. It shouldn't be illegal under DMCA. It doesn't allow for bypassing copyright. Sigh!! Can't explain to these suits. Need a technical guy with the legal mumbo jumbo to explain this all. Actually these beaurecrats don't care...they got they're illegal funds slipped to them. How come little guys never win? They do the same shit. Isn't illegal campaign contribution illegal too? I bet these feds that confiscated theses consoles from the 'modders' are in awe of some of the consoles. They look at an xbox with X3 faceplate and different bank switches. They're probably like "That;s cool!. I feel like such a dick for confiscating this." Such useful applications have risen out of xbox modding. Sigh? No needs look no further than xbins. Hddlock, Fatx , regionfree, xbpartitioner, dashes,etc all from hardworking individuals.
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 02, 2007, 07:00:00 PM
QUOTE(GandyMan @ Aug 2 2007, 07:20 PM)
I love my XBMC but I do not see how you can say this:
Spoken as truth when in fact it is not true at all. There are many legitimate uses for these devices beyond "subverting copyright protections" I mentioned previously the use of XBMC. While true that these devices CAN ALSO be used to circumvent copy protection that is not in any way shape or form their "one purpose" as stated. Either Julie L Meyers is ignorant to this fact or is outright lying to make her department's actions seem validated and warranted.
Like I said I love my XBMC but can it run on an unmodified system. No it can not. The statement made buy Julie L. Meyers is correct no matter how much I like it or not. In order to run XBMC I have to mod the system in some way. Even if I use an exploit for the purpose of getting around a security measure it is still the same. I am not saying I like what she is saying or what they are doing but the truth is it does not matter what BIOS code you use to boot what ever on what ever if it is to bypass what is installed by the developer than it is subverting copyright protections.
Is it really subverting copyright protection?
The discs are copy protected NOT the console. if you modify the console and never pop in a copy protected game exactly which copy protections are you breaking?
I'm not saying modchips are not illegal, because like most things, they are illegal under DMCA but they can be used and installed without violating copy protection.
Also Anyone who wants to tow a party line talking about how cruel the Patriot Act is should be reminded that Bill Clinton is the one responsible for the DMCA... Full Disclosure: I'm a Libertarian.
I'd also want to point out some additional cruel irony that someone pointed out to me in a PM.
Apparently there are a group of automotive enthusiasts who modified their cars to run on a specific form of bio diesel and are now being criminalized because the new fuel that their cars run on are not taxed as an automotive fuel and are being persecuted because of it... I truly envy the days that America's great innovators lived in, for they are long since gone.
Post by: Landlocked on August 02, 2007, 07:22:00 PM
I'm sure a fair number of people have made a mix CD (with innocent intentions) and violated the Fair Use Act.
Post by: GandyMan on August 02, 2007, 07:48:00 PM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Aug 3 2007, 02:36 AM)
Is it really subverting copyright protection?
The discs are copy protected NOT the console. if you modify the console and never pop in a copy protected game exactly which copy protections are you breaking?
I'm not saying modchips are not illegal, because like most things, they are illegal under DMCA but they can be used and installed without violating copy protection.
Also Anyone who wants to tow a party line talking about how cruel the Patriot Act is should be reminded that Bill Clinton is the one responsible for the DMCA... Full Disclosure: I'm a Libertarian.
I'd also want to point out some additional cruel irony that someone pointed out to me in a PM.
Apparently there are a group of automotive enthusiasts who modified their cars to run on a specific form of bio diesel and are now being criminalized because the new fuel that their cars run on are not taxed as an automotive fuel and are being persecuted because of it... I truly envy the days that America's great innovators lived in, for they are long since gone.
I would disagree; I think it all comes down to how far you take the term copy protection. If the machine is designed from a point to only allow one type of media to play and you make it work with something else then I think you have to say you bypassed a part of the copy protection. Mostly because you are now running a disk that does not have the protection on it that it is looking for. You made the system not use the check to load a disk. I do think that the new argument should be that since MS does not support the Xbox or design new ones than they have left it up to us to improve on it.
I would say I am not aware of the Automobile Enthusiasts being in trouble do to the gas not being taxed. I was under the understanding it was because their fuel has not been approved for use on the road. Basically having to do with smog and all that stuff. I could be wrong but with the way things are reported now days it is really hard to get to the truth. It is funny once it hits the front page of a web site it is truth.
Post by: ydgmms on August 02, 2007, 07:53:00 PM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Aug 2 2007, 08:36 PM)
Also Anyone who wants to tow a party line talking about how cruel the Patriot Act is should be reminded that Bill Clinton is the one responsible for the DMCA... Full Disclosure: I'm a Libertarian.
I wish more people knew that. I personally never cared who sucked who off (..or whom? bah irrelevant), but dammit the day he signed the DMCA was a bleak day... I'll always hate him for THAT.
Full disclosure: .. republican/libertarian .. tough call these days.
Resellers need to look into the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF). They do a lot of DMCA countersuits ( vs the RIAA/MPAA)
Post by: wantin2mod on August 02, 2007, 08:07:00 PM
Give me a break USA and go kick, take-down and hurt the terrorists while protecting your own people!
I guess it's the golden rule...whoever has the gold makes the rules....?
So much as "for the people and by the people...". More like "for the government and by the corporations"!!!
Money hungry buggers!!!
...go USA(government), go and remember why this nation was founded.
Post by: GandyMan on August 02, 2007, 08:19:00 PM
QUOTE(wantin2mod @ Aug 3 2007, 03:43 AM)
All I have to say is, "Holy Crap"! You think that the almighty U.S. of A. would have something more to worry about than this.
Give me a break USA and go kick, take-down and hurt the terrorists while protecting your own people!
I guess it's the golden rule...whoever has the gold makes the rules....?
So much as "for the people and by the people...". More like "for the government and by the corporations"!!!
Money hungry buggers!!!
...go USA(government), go and remember why this nation was founded.
What does the government have to do with this? These people were breaking the law. Simple. It might suck as a law but it is the law. If you were the one losing money you would be after them also. No one is breaking your door down to stop you from running Linux or XBMC. It is the ones that mod for games that they are after. To think that all those people busted were not putting in chips that can play coped games is just crazy.
LetÂ’s see do businesses live to loss money or to make money. Law and courts are after these people not the government. I do not see why people are not mad at the makers of these chips. Are they coming to help anyone? If they are so not wrong in the eyes of the law why not help. Oh because they are here to make money.
Sorry I think I was mixing two posts into one.
Post by: maz57 on August 02, 2007, 08:22:00 PM
QUOTE
America used to be the place of liberty and freedom, people would flee from their homelands coming here where they could follow the American dream. Something is really wrong when I and many in the technical community look at all of the other civilized nations on the globe and think to ourselves "I wish we had that kind of freedom here."
Reminds me of something George Carlin Said:
"It's called the American DREAM, because you need to be asleep to believe it"
Unfortunately that's what it has come to and it's not an easy fix to change the culture from supporting corporations first to supporting the people first.
Post by: spook727 on August 02, 2007, 09:26:00 PM
QUOTE(GandyMan @ Aug 3 2007, 04:06 AM)
I do not understand what you mean. I was simple pointing out one point of the article , "There are many legitimate uses for these devices beyond "subverting copyright protections" I mentioned previously the use of XBMC" and that to me that is still subverting copyright protections. Of course I do not like this law. There are tons of laws I do not like. But until it is changed if you break it you have to pay. I love my XBMC and use it almost everyday. I understand the point of the article and like it. I just wanted to say that I think it is a valid point made by Julie L. Meyers that the purpose of all the devices not BIOS is to subvert copyright protection. Having spent 20+ years and counting in the U.S. military and having spent over half overseas are personal freedoms are well above others.
perhaps "legitimate uses" is badly worded as the would denote that it is legal. In the current definition of the law, in order to run homebrew code, you must first circumvent the protection built into the systems. Perhaps "non-piracy uses" is more apt?
The question is, is it right to say that circumventing the protections in the hardware should be considered illegal? Should we be told by the software and media companies what we can and cannot do? An example would be region-free dvd players. Should we be told by movie companies that what the English or Japanese audiences watch should not be watched by Americans? By watching an imported movie, you are circumventing the protection on the disc.
If we argue that the mere act of circumventing the protection is not illegal, then we need to be very specific about who has actually committed a crime.
While nobody will disagree that most modchips are used for piracy, I would venture to say that the percentage of "non-piracy" uses are not as low as you would think. The proof is in the number of developers out there who have contributed to XBMC and the XBox scene in general. Add to that percentage of people who use the chips to enable imports (which Sony has sought to make illegal) and it's inaccurate to say that "all" modchips are used for piracy (I know that's not what the statement says but we know the meaning behind it).
As to our personal freedoms are well above others, that argument has never worked for me. My parents have never accepted that argument either... "a C is better than other people in the class!". The reason our personal liberties are above others is because there were diligent individuals or groups that helped get us here. We need to continue in that spirit.
Post by: theperfekt001 on August 02, 2007, 10:42:00 PM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Aug 2 2007, 01:29 PM)
The government should be in place to act in the best interests of the American people. Instead our laws work to criminalize anyone and everyone and designed not in the best interests of the American people but in the best interests of politicians and big businesses.
...
Rather than creating an environment with the ideals of the American dream, where a humble garage inventor can compete in an open market and build his business from the ground up we've started criminalizing them for the threats they pose to the larger established corporations.
Well said
Post by: djsnake on August 03, 2007, 08:09:00 AM
The real question now should be how do we go about wrestling control of the government back from the corporations. I'd love to see it start with a complete reworking of the DMCA but how do we accomplish that? As someone else said the EFF defends a lot of people in these cases but do they have what it takes to change a law backed by multi-billion dollar corporations?
Post by: BoberFett on August 03, 2007, 08:28:00 PM
Post by: throwingks on August 03, 2007, 08:47:00 PM
QUOTE(GandyMan @ Aug 2 2007, 10:24 PM)
I would say I am not aware of the Automobile Enthusiasts being in trouble do to the gas not being taxed. I was under the understanding it was because their fuel has not been approved for use on the road. Basically having to do with smog and all that stuff. I could be wrong but with the way things are reported now days it is really hard to get to the truth. It is funny once it hits the front page of a web site it is truth.
There are in trouble for not paying gas tax. Biodiesel is cleaner than regular gas.http://www.makezine....for_altern.html
There is no precedence for this. I would like to see a group of people argue this all the way to the Supreme Court. It's a shame Mr. Rogers isn't with us anymore. He was one of the main reasons VCRs were not outlawed when they came to existence. His argument was it will allow families to watch shows they would have missed together. If people start pulling on the family string, there may be a case.
"We can stream family videos encoded in any format via XBMC."
"My children scratch the disks, and we can no longer play together."
"I was using Linux to act as a proxy/web filter for my children regardless of what computer they were on. My Linux Xbox filtered the content."
etc.
Post by: twistedsymphony on August 06, 2007, 10:26:00 AM
QUOTE(cory1492 @ Aug 4 2007, 06:37 AM)
Great article/statement/take/editorial; though there is one thing you did not touch on at all and it leaves me rather surprised.
Apparently, these days when we pay hundreds for a console we do not own it, only a license to use it (one which we cannot read without opening the box and looking at the book, and thus have no opportunity to agree/disagree with before purchase). The consoles may not be "copy protected" but they do have security which must be circumvented to enable homebrew use (so it is included in the license terms). As such, the console itself is being considered the violated Intellectual Property.
This is a common misconception and it is flat out not true... plain and simple.
you can not license or lease the use of a device or service without a contract and you cannot legally enter a contract unless you are above the age of 18 or have your parent/guardian agree to it for you. If the console was actually being leased you would not be able to "buy" one without being over the age of 18 and signing a contract. I don't remember ever having done that, do you?
When you buy an Xbox you OWN that Xbox you're not leasing it or licensing it or any weird legal trickery... you OWN IT.
The only thing you can license or have a lease over is software and services such as Xbox live where you agree to a EULA (end users license agreement). Technically the EULA is completely void for anyone under the age of 18 who purchased and opened the software themselves because they're not legally able to agree to anything.
... that still doesn't change the fact that breaking copy protection is illegal for Americans of all ages.
FWIW: it's also illegal to not make EULAs available free of charge before the purchase of software. this came after a lawsuit with MS a few years back where someone tried to sell an unopened copy of MS office, got sued by MS, took it to court instead of settling and won since he couldn't have read the contract without having opened the software