Print Page - Why Do Christians Lie So Much?

Off Topic Forums => General Chat => Politics, News and Religion => Topic started by: FoeHammer05 on July 17, 2005, 01:09:00 AM

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: FoeHammer05 on July 17, 2005, 01:09:00 AM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 17 2005, 03:13 AM)

Sorry if the title is a bit offensive, but please hear me out before you crap on this thread. Christians in general dont lie anymore than anyone of any other religious belief. Christians however, especially evangelical christians seem to think that its ok to simply manufacture evidence to support their claims. I have rarely spoken to someone of an evangelical Protestant faith who didnt lie. They may not be doing this purposefully, they may simply be misinformed, but they lie. I usually try to research most information that is given to me that may not be first hand, but the seem to have no such desire for the truth. One of my personal favorites is the topic of Muslims. If i were to believe what i have heard from people, i would think that the Muslims are a bunch of satan worshipping baby eaters, who pray to satan and ritualistically sacrifice Christians. This of course is not true, and i know this because every time a claim was made by a christian to me about the Muslim faith, i went and talked to many of my Muslim friends about the validity of said claim.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Wong Hung Lo on July 17, 2005, 08:56:00 AM

QUOTE(FoeHammer05 @ Jul 17 2005, 04:20 AM)

Oh but you are wrong they are all those things, and i think that if anyone can manufacture evidence then they must be pretty damn good.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: BinaryMod on July 17, 2005, 09:19:00 AM

My opinon is religion is something that makes you feel better knowing your going to die... amazingly enough there are a crap load of religions - so which one is right?

well if they have different beliefs - someone has to be wrong? .... from a psychological view - people need something to cope with in hard times ect...

i compare religion to santa clause... you grow up thinking he's real, and you believe he's real until you find out the truth...

p.s. who the hell still uses dial up

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Wong Hung Lo on July 17, 2005, 09:58:00 AM

QUOTE(BinaryMod @ Jul 17 2005, 12:30 PM)

p.s. who the hell still uses dial up

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: runawaywarthog on July 17, 2005, 10:02:00 AM

QUOTE

This of course is not true, and i know this because every time a claim was made by a christian to me about the Muslim faith, i went and talked to many of my Muslim friends about the validity of said claim.

unless of course, they lie too

. nah islam is a peaceful religion, its just the extremists read the koran differently. they read only what they want to read, which is wrong. same with devout christians.

QUOTE

well im glad you know everything, thanks for enlightening me. the 3 biggest religions all tend around the same belief in case you didnt notice. most of the world is made up of muslims, jews, and catholics/christians. there are only small differences to each of these, mainly revolving around Jesus. Chiristians believe he was both fully divine and human while muslims believe he was only a prophet. Jews believe the same i think. all 3 are the same beliefs, just varied a bit. none of them are wrong. So what is this truth you speak of? tell me because i want to find it out so i can stop looking like a fool. have you died? can you physically prove to me there is no god? explain life, explain the complexity of everything. have you ever thought about what the chances are that anything like this could happen? just luck? what causes luck? i want to learn this truth that "there is no god" and also, i want sources

just like everyone else.

QUOTE

p.s. who the hell still uses dial up

my friend so stfu

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: AmatocianMonk on July 18, 2005, 12:55:00 AM

QUOTE

so which one is right?

Perhaps, none? or perhaps all? We saddly (as mortal humans) will never know.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 18, 2005, 06:57:00 AM

The main problem is that Science does nothing but try to prove the Bible wrong. Take a step back for a second and look at it as a whole. Everything in Science is not the truth either. Many "Christians" also know nothing of the bible, and neither do most scientists. The bible has distinct verses speaking of dinosaurs. This is highly overlooked as not many know how to read the bible for themselves.

Most "Chistians" go to church and just listen to what the "speaker"(title depends on denomination) says. The problem is however, the bible is intended to be interpreted in your own views. Instead most only listen to one persons interpretation, the speaker of their church. The Bible is mainly a guide to life and the way we should live. There will be a helpful story in the bible for any situation you will ever have in life.

Evolution is another story. Evolution has taken many forms and has many different views, just like different religions.

Adaptation and Evolution in general do exist. Many people also don't understand there is a difference between those two.

There is no point in people arguing over their beliefs. We all have different brains. No person is the same. No person will ever know the truth until they are dead. Even death may not tell the truth.

I may be right or I may be wrong. You may be right or you may be wrong. I will follow what I feel is the truth and I feel everyone should follow what they feel is the truth.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: LepPpeR on July 18, 2005, 09:12:00 AM

Hey, I am of an evangelical Protestant faith and I rarely lie about things.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Xombe on July 18, 2005, 09:22:00 AM

I was raised Baptist, in the Pacific Norse West mind you (no typo) but am still a logica thinking, question human. I don't so much adhere to my Baptist roots, but I know a lot of religous zealots of all faiths.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: runawaywarthog on July 18, 2005, 03:43:00 PM

QUOTE

The "scientifically" research creationism, they want their "theories" taught in schools. They believe that if everyone sees the "light"(which i will assume means enlightenment) that they will convert. This is an idea that jesus himself presented, that christians could convert other by their actions. This is not what they do however. They, like most radical fundamentalists assume a Machiavellian approach to conversion, and in return damage their own reputations.

i agree to that.
like the people who try to get evolution kicked out of schools. lets face it. it happened.
its also fact that the bible is one of the most misquoted books going off what someone else said. like he also said, it is a guide to the way of life. its not meant to be taken literally... that is what the fundamentalists do and extremists and such. i can agree with you on that... but as for religion, i do believe there is a god, and i have faith in an afterlife.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: thewickedjester on July 18, 2005, 05:23:00 PM

I love the hipocracy that exists in religon. Esspecially the commandment (one of those oh so infamous 10 in Christianity) that says Love Thy Neighbor. What if your neighbors a Muslim? Hell, the christians slaughtered them. What if your neightbor is gay? When it all boils down to it, they mean love thy neighbor assuming your neighbor beleives the same as you do.

Im sure many of the other religons have similar practices, but Christianity seems to have a lot of them.

I beleive the movie "Dogma" stated it best: its not important what you have faith in, so much as that you HAVE faith. It bassically means none of the religons are right or wrong, and its all based on interpretation, simply beleive in what you want and dont hate others for what they beleive in.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: FQDN on July 18, 2005, 05:33:00 PM

the problem with modern day christianity is that the scriptures have been spun through the multi-cultural and diversity bullshit machine for so long that nobody in today's world really has an understanding of the true meanings..

those that do have a desire to know what the original scriptures meant will study with the aid of multiple concordences and lexicons.

`loving thy neighbor' never included those pagans that lived around you... loving they neighbor or fellow christian brother or sister was what that scripture reference meant..

same goes with the reference to turning thy cheek if a brother strikes you.. that is a reference to a fellow christian brother that you may get into an argument with...it had nothing to do with allowing someone who wasn't a believer to beat the ever living shit out of you and you just sit there as a pacifist.

the scriptures have been distorted so much that one has to wonder why christians are so ineffective in getting anything done...

and lastly, the judeo christians that President Bush, and Jerry Falwell belong too are false christians... they do not represent the old time religion of christianity..

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: FQDN on July 18, 2005, 08:23:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 18 2005, 10:26 PM)

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 18, 2005, 08:39:00 PM

ok i really dont want to get into a debate with you. But remember that last meal jesus ate, the last supper. Why was he doing that again? Oh thats right, he was celebrating the jewish festival of passover. So he at least practiced judiasm

But you know what, this is interesting. This may be the root cause of this entire debate. I will concede that jewish may not have been jewish, he only appeared jewish(i say this because of his constant involvment with the Jewish faith). I will grant you the possibility that my belief is wrong. And with an open mind i will research the information you gave me. In return, i want you to explore from my perspective the possibility of me being correct.

I use the word my perspective because of this, there exist no absolutes in most things. There do however exist flaws. If you see two fish in the water, that are both trout, but think that one is much bigger than the other, and then the fish disappear, and i argue that they were the same size, we will never know who was right. If i however claim that one of the fish was actually an elephant swimming in the 12 in deep water. I have a flaw in my judgement. So i ask you to do this, and i will do the same. Explore my perspective, if only for a moment, and try to find the flaw. The irrefutable flaw that cannot be argued, not the circumstantial opinion that cannot be disproven. I will grant you the same

Thank you

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: FQDN on July 18, 2005, 08:58:00 PM

Jesus never practiced judaism.. judaism uses the babylonian talmud for it's reference..

the passover was not just a jewish holiday.. it was first a representation of the final plague that was issued against the Pharaoh during the captivity of the Hebrews..

The word Jew basicly has two major meanings... it represented an inhabitant of the area known as Judea and the other meaning was one who practiced the religion of Judaism.. Judaism again uses the babylonian talmud for it's practices and references. Thus Jesus never practiced Judaism..

When Jesus read from the scriptures.... he read from the Torah.... a very big difference between the talmud..

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 18, 2005, 09:06:00 PM

Ok after taking my side of the challenge seriously, and wading though a few KKK and neo-nazi pages that you directed me too, i guess you dont really care about anyone elses pespective, but just for the purpose of information

That's not true. The Torah - the Five Books of Moses is Judaism's "holiest" book, however it has two parts, a written part (which is what Christians are familiar with) and an Oral part (which the early Christians abandoned). The Oral part, or "Oral Law" is analogous to be a body of jurispudence and procedures to accompany the written law and is understood to have been handed down from Moses around the 1200's BCE. It was expressly forbidden to write it down because it was thought that any such attempt would be incomplete but after much debate, it became apparent that the only way to preserve it would be to write it down and this was done between 70CE and 200 CE in the form of the Mishna and the supplementary Tosefta. Later the Gemara was added as additional material and was written between 200CE and 500CE. Finally around 500 CE this and other material were included in the encyclopedic Talmud consisting of 5,894 pages and there are many further works in addition to these as well.

The point of saying this is that in the absence of any interpretation via an oral tradition, it is difficult to understand what was meant. For example, the classic "eye for an eye" quote (Exodus 21:24 and Leviticus 24:17-22) which Christians interpret literally has no such interpretation in Judaism. No Jewish court has ever blinded or otherwise inflicted physical injury as revenge or retribution. The phrase is interpreted to mean what the perpetrator of a crime deserves, not what he should get. Another example is that despite the existence of capital punishment in the Hebrew Bible, Jewish courts rarely issued the death penalty as extremely strict conditions were imposed on who was considered valid witnesses and other requirements which were difficult to meet in practice.

Other examples proving the existence of the Oral Law within the Bible relate to the fact that many terms, procedures, rights and responsibilites are assumed to be common knowledge within the text. A common expression is "as I have commanded you" but it doesn't say anywhere what the command was, except that it known from the Oral part of the Bible.

The Talmud derives its authority from the Torah on which it is based..
David S. Maddison ([email protected])

reference
http://www.frum.org/talmud/index.asp

People, dont believe until you have explored that belief

Any further conversation on this topic of Jesus being jewish is strictly off topic unless you can provide the basis for your argument from reference, and not from heresay or personal belief

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: jaydon34 on July 18, 2005, 09:10:00 PM

Wow xbox-scene is getting really deep. Although I have lost all faith in religion. I continue live my life according to my own morals and ethics.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: thewickedjester on July 18, 2005, 09:12:00 PM

QUOTE(jaydon34 @ Jul 18 2005, 11:21 PM)

Wow xbox-scene is getting really deep. Although I have lost all faith in religion. I continue live my life according to my own morals and ethics.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: jaydon34 on July 18, 2005, 09:24:00 PM

QUOTE(thewickedjester @ Jul 19 2005, 01:23 AM)

This is the way (in my opinion) that it should be, religon should be like guidelines. Some people take it to literally and thats when shit hits the fan.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: thewickedjester on July 18, 2005, 09:38:00 PM

4. This is horrible, when people lie to try and further their own claims or arguments. I really dont have much to say on it other than it happens, and its very bad.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: thewickedjester on July 18, 2005, 09:52:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 18 2005, 11:59 PM)

By the way, i think conflict is good. How boring would it be if we all figured out that the Mormons were right.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 19, 2005, 09:19:00 AM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 18 2005, 10:26 PM)

Science has never attacked the bible.

Thats funny as anyone with sense can see you have done nothing so far but attack the bible and chirstians. Lets be serious, look at your title and what this tread is about. Christians lie...............I feel that was an attack. Just as you felt it was an attack for me to say science does nothing but try to prove the bible wrong. You were very quick to reply and prove that science does not attack the bible...........even though I didnt say that. I said, it tries to prove the bible wrong.

The science of Evolution attacks the bible. If you would stop to think for a second, you would have known what science I was referring to. Medicine is a science and I wouldn't say it attacks god. I also suggest you get your facts straight about a few things. There is a difference among every denomination of christianity. It states very clearly in the bible that God frowns upon denominations and congregations. This is what causes your confusion about such things as People that Kill Muslims and KKK members being "christians". Hell I "can" say I worship Satan while I do nothing but pray to god. Would that mean anything besides the fact that I am off my rocker? Many Catholics believe that men of the curch are closer to God than others. Which is complete falsehood if they ever read their own book. Yet they continue to have that belief. Do you know the real reason why little boys are molested? Those preists have taken things so out of context that they believe it is not sex. That is why it is with young boys and not women.

What a person says has no true meaning. Good for you, you can only point out the follies of this world and people. The Crusades were done in the name of GOD. Does that mean a single thing about God? No it does not. Muslim fundamentalists kill themselves for God. Is that what God wanted..........NO, but thats what they think in their twisted mind. This is the same as KKK members or anyone that harms/kills someone in the name of God. KKK members are about the worst example you could ever use. Christian KKK member is an oxymoron. All that means is they are nuts. Are KKK members not nuts anyways, does it matter what they say? It is all stupid. Every word out of their mouth is ignorance. To use them as an example of christianity is also complete ignorance on your behalf.

I see you also assume the "dinosaur" creature I talk about in the bible. Let me quote the dinosaur verses in the bible I was referring to.

Job
40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
40:18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
40:19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
40:20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
40:21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
40:22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
40:23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
40:24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

The King James Version has left the word behemoth untranslated, because we don not know these animals anymore.
The animal that really fits the description of a behemoth is the Brachiosaurus.

Some commentators have suggested that the Behemoth could be a hippo, or an elephant. But both of these suggestions ignore the physical description of the Behemoth given in the Bible. Hippos and elephants have very short tails. The Behemoth described in the Bible had a tail so long and so strong that God compared it to a cedar tree. The Behemoths tail was as long as, and as strong as the trunk of a tree. Yet it could easily bend like one of its flexible branches. This description fits no living animal. This does not imply that the behemoth was a mythical animal, perhaps it is just an extinct one.(hmmm common sense)

Dinosaurs lived millions of years before man.

Want know something funny? The amazing thing is there is no evidence to support the belief that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. In fact, the physical evidence contradicts this very idea (contrary to what you may have been told, dinosaur bones are NOT carbon dated. They are "assigned" an age based on how old someone thinks they are, based upon the geologic column). Did you know that dinosaur bones that are carbon dated give dates of only a few thousand years old? Not millions like evolutionists claim. Dinosaurs have been found in the same layer of rock as man. This in itself falsifies the gap of millions of years that Evolutionists claim separates them.

The word "dinosaur" is not found anywhere in the Bible. This is because the word "Dinosaur" was not invented until the mid 1800's. The "King James Bible" was translated into English in 1611. So we would not expect to find the word "dinosaur."

Lets also clarify something else. Since you are arguing and not knowing what the bible speaks.
All dinosaurs were created to live in peace with man, the same as all animals. There was no such thing as a carnivore before sin. Sin was brought about because of man and woman. Dinosaurs were meant to be beautiful creatures, just like serpants(Satan was the most beautiful serpant to ever exist).

Science.............
No Scientist was there when the earth was formed or when life began. So any ideas they currently have are only educated guesses. This makes them no more accurate than what I believe in.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: BinaryMod on July 19, 2005, 09:52:00 AM

QUOTE(runawaywarthog @ Jul 17 2005, 06:13 PM)

So what is this truth you speak of? tell me because i want to find it out so i can stop looking like a fool. have you died? can you physically prove to me there is no god? explain life, explain the complexity of everything. have you ever thought about what the chances are that anything like this could happen?

im not saying theres a possibility of God or whatever you worship... but in my opinion I need some type of proof.

also since im not very religious... will my dog, cat, my fish, and other kind loving animals go to heaven ect. ? I dont think they really believe much in religion - but you never know.

and if they dont go to heaven... its amazing we would be the only life form to make it into heaven.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 19, 2005, 11:59:00 AM

QUOTE

No Scientist was there when the earth was formed or when life began. So any ideas they currently have are only educated guesses. This makes them no more accurate than what I believe in.

This is actually wrong. Im once again not trying to be rude, but your knowledge comes from one book. The only wholly supporting evidence of the validity of your book is your book.(There are many parts of your book that are supported by external sources, but there are many parts that are opposed, so your Bible is not wholly supported). You say yourself scientists are making educated guesses. An educated guess means that they are coming up with the best conclusion based on multiple sources of evidence. You are coming up with one unwavering conclusion based on one piece of evidence. Empirically, Scientists are more accurate.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 19, 2005, 01:44:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 19 2005, 02:10 PM)

Empirically, Scientists are more accurate.

You continue to tell me I am lying, why? To attack me.
Did I ever say no preist has ever molested a woman? No I did not. You can argue all you want, but what I said was the truth. Most cases are because they believe it is not sex. You want proof, listen to some of the ones who are caught. Th at is what they say. Keep in mind, with your closed mind that I didnt say all. Also if I was making stuff up and so was the rest of the world, explain why that goes on mostly in the Catholic Church?
Open your eyes, in your scientific ways you still are trying to disprove the bible like I said they do in the first place. Here is a source for the dating of fossils and shows how they never line up. http://www.christian...g/aig-c007.html

QUOTE

Different Dating Techniques Should Consistently Agree
If the dating methods are an objective and reliable means of determining ages, they should agree. If a chemist were measuring the sugar content of blood, all valid methods for the determination would give the same answer (within the limits of experimental error). However, with radiometric dating, the different techniques often give quite different results.

Link for human bones and Dino bones together.
http://www.bible.ca/...lachite-man.htm
http://www.conroechu...Pic_MoabMan.htm

Here is some food for thought.

QUOTE

SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION IN THE BIBLE

Here are nine passages in the Scriptures that describe what we call "scientific information". This "science" was written in God's Word over 2000 years ago, and only recently credited as a "scientific discovery" by a modern "scientist":

1. Job 38:31,32 Movement of the planets:

About 100 years ago an astronomer named M. Medler discovered that Alcyone, the brightest star in the constellation Pleiades, is the gravitational center of the universe. In the discussion between God and Job in Job chapter 38, the Hebrew phrase "bind the sweet influences of Pleiades" in verse 31 is describing Pleiades as "binding" or "connecting" the heavens together by its gravitational "influence". Bob Thieme, in his book "Canonicity", says that the Hebrew word "kimah" meant "hinge", "pivot, or "axil"! Amazing, God named that spot in the universe and gave this information to Job over 3000 years before Medler the astronomer discovered it!

2. Job 28:25 Air has weight:

In Job 28:25, God says that He made a "weight" for the winds, or literally for the "moving air". Approximately 350 years ago, the scientist Galileo initiated the scientific concept that air had "weight". Today we know that the downward pressure of a one square inch column of air at sea level is 14.7 pounds. Notice also in Job 28:26 & 27 God told Job that He decreed in eternity past where and when rain would fall and lightning would strike! That is why our modern laws wisely call a lightning strike an "Act of God".

3. Static electricity

Jer 10:13 states that God "causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightenings with rain". God is describing to Job that the condensation of water vapor causes static electricity. Scientists studying lightning discovered that this can be proven in the science laboratory.

4. Who thought the earth was flat?

In Isa 40:22 the earth is said to be a "circle" in the KJV. The Hebrew word translated "circle" is "chug" meaning a SPHERE. "Chug" is translated "circle" here and "compass" in Prov 8:27, but means a sphere or ball. God's people since the time of Isaiah the prophet knew that the earth was a "sphere" or "ball" and not flat. The ancient people who thought the earth was flat either did not know, or did not believe the Old Testament Scriptures! Even our English word "atmosphere" means a "sphere" of "air"!

5. The Earth rotates on its axis

In Luke 17:31-36, Jesus is describing the Second Advent at the end of the Great Tribulation, when He will return to earth to rule and reign over this earth for 1000 years, and He says both "in that day", and "in that night". He describes people involved in daytime and nighttime activity at the same point in time. Jesus knew that the earth was a rotating sphere that has daylight on one side while it is night on the other side! He should know, He created it!

6. Quarantine for communicable diseases

In Lev 13:45,46, God states that leprosy victims in the contagious stage must be quarantined. This reminds us that the Jews, as God's people, had medical, dietary, and civil laws long before the rest of the world.

7. Telegraph

In Job 38:35 God asked Job if he could send the lightning with a message and say "here we are". Amazing, God is describing messages transmitted by electricity. Man would not understand the significance of this discourse between God and Job until Alexander Graham Bell sent his first electrically transmitted message. Bell's first message, on March 10, 1876, was "Mr. Watson, come here; I want you". Do you remember from your history book what Bell's reaction was when Mr. Watson acknowledged that the first electrically transmitted message was successful? Bell said "What God hath wrought!"

8. Human physiology and the circulation of blood in the human body

Long before Dr Harvey discovered the circulation of blood in our bodies, Solomon wrote about it in Eccl 12:6! Verses 3 - 7 are an amazing description of the physiology if the human aging process also. Especially amazing when we realize that it was written in God's Word over 2000 years ago! In verse 6, the "silver cord" is the spine, the "golden bowl" refers to the cranium, and the "pitcher, fountain, wheel and cistern" refer to the heart and circulatory system. Verse 3 describes the result of the aging process on the nervous system, back, teeth, and eyes. Verse 4 describes hearing loss and sleeplessness. Verse 5 describes fears in general, fear of heights, bitterness, loss of strength and motivation.

9. The earths fixed weather patterns

In Eccl 1:5-7 Solomon describes the fixed circuits of the earths weather patterns and winds and the laws of evaporation and condensation of water long before it became "scientific knowledge". The rivers constantly run into the sea, but the sea does not get full. The waters return to the rivers (through evaporation, condensation and wind pattern and rain) and run into the seas again! Read the book of Ecclesiastes sometime. Solomon wrote the book of Ecclesiastes. The word "Ecclesiastes" basically means "Listen up, I have something to say!". He was the richest man the world has ever seen. He had it all, and if he heard about something new anywhere in the world, he sent for it, so he could have it too. In the end, he found that "things" could not make him really happy. In the last two verses, his conclusion is to fear God and keep His Word, and then we can enjoy "things".

QUOTE

NASA SCIENTISTS HELP TO PROVE THE BIBLE

Before the first manned moon mission, I heard scientists on the radio and TV say that "if no evidence of life is found on the moon, science will have to go completely back to the drawing board in our study of the origin of the universe". But, the Lunar probes found no evidence of life on the moon, it was sterile. But, has science "gone back to the drawing board"? I don't think so.

A discovery on the first moon mission PROVED, instead of disproved, God's Word. Dr. Henry Morris, a scientist who is a Bible believing Christian, said that scientists expected the moon to have about 22 feet of "moon dust" on its surface. Objects in space are said to attract cosmic "dust" at a rate determined by the density of their atmosphere and the "age" of the object. NASA scientists used a formula to determine the thickness of the moons dust, and they used so many "millions of years" for the age of the moon. If you remember, the Lunar Lander had huge flat feet, so it wouldn't sink into the "moon dust", and guess what, the feet went "clunk", in just a few inches of moon dust.

Dr. Morris then used NASA's own formula and worked it BACKWARDS with the moon's correct "inches of dust", and solved for the moon's "AGE". The astonishing answer, using NASA's own formula, was that the moon is about 7000 years old!

God may have created the original earth millions of years ago, we don't know, BUT, God placed the moon in the sky on the FOURTH day of the RESTORATION, in Genesis 1:14-19. Adding up the Scripture genealogy from Adam to Jesus totals about 4000, and if we add our 2000 years from the birth of Christ, we are approximately 6000 years from Adam. NASA's formula, and the actual thickness of the moon dust proves that the Creation account in Genesis is LITERALLY CORRECT! Adam and Eve and our sun and moon were created approximately 6000 years ago!

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: pHeelixx on July 19, 2005, 02:13:00 PM

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 19, 2005, 03:12:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 17 2005, 03:13 AM)

One of my personal favorites is the topic of Muslims. If i were to believe what i have heard from people, i would think that the Muslims are a bunch of satan worshipping baby eaters, who pray to satan and ritualistically sacrifice Christians. This of course is not true, and i know this because every time a claim was made by a christian to me about the Muslim faith, i went and talked to many of my Muslim friends about the validity of said claim.

You seem to have no such desire for the truth. If you did, you would not ask your Muslim friends, but read the Koran for yourself. US Muslims claim that the word Islam stands for peace when it really stands for oppression as in to oppress others.

So they don't kill Christians and they are a peaceful religion, eh?

Koran verses, with my commentary

3:117 - "Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people."

I guess your Muslim friends are not friends or they are going against their own book.

4:101 - "The unbelievers are your inveterate foe."

Non-Muslims are their long lasting personal enemies.

5:17 - "Unbelievers are those who declare: 'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary."

Hmmm, I wonder who those poeple are george?

5:51 - "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another."

Well, I already knew who the Unbelievers are, but thanks for clarifying.

5:59 - "Say: 'People of the Book, is it not that you hate us only because we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was formerly revealed, and because most of you are evil-doers?' Say: 'Shall I tell you who will receive a worse reward from Allah? Those whom Allah has cursed and with whom He has been angry, transforming them into apes and swine, and those who serve the devil."

Can you guess who the "People of the Book" are?

5:72 - "Unbelievers are those that say:'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary."

Are you making sure I remember? You already told me.

5:73 - "Unbelievers are those that say: 'God is one of three."

I get the gist of it now, but thanks for that last reminder of who the Unbelievers are.

9:111 - "Allah has purchased from the faithful their lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for the cause of Allah, they will slay, and be slain."

Slay-To kill violently

9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

So......make war on anyone who does not believe in said religion.
Infidel-An unbeliever with respect to a particular religion

47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."

Sounds famliar doesnt it? I hope you have been paying attention to the war in the past few years.

48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."

Ruthless-Having no compassion or pity, without mercy

49:15 "The true believers are those that have faith in Allah and His apostle, and never doubt; and who fight with their wealth and with their persons in the cause of Allah. Such are those whose faith is true."

God, I wish it was this easy.(yes, pun intended)

66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

Wow, just wow. Lost of making war on the "Unbelievers", and we know who they are right?

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 19, 2005, 03:29:00 PM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Jul 19 2005, 05:14 PM)

I can't be bothered going through your various quotes but I will use the above as an example of the blind leading the blind, that is if you truley believe in these hocus pocus fairy tales.

If you know everything, by all means, guide me to the light, as I am blind.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Arvarden on July 19, 2005, 04:24:00 PM

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 19, 2005, 04:30:00 PM

Oh and to make things a little bit cleaner, could all future references please come from a validated source, I mean if you reference an experiment that shows something to be false, could you please find the original experiment, rather than an account of said experiment on a Christian website.

Thanks

btw the site you linked to did have a reference list at the end, so that would be acceptable, but try not to quote from the summary too much.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 19, 2005, 04:33:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 19 2005, 06:30 PM)

Anyway, i think i proved my point earlier, you lied about the carbon dating, i will of course retract this if you can find the radiocarbon dated fossil experiment.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 19, 2005, 05:49:00 PM

QUOTE

Job 38:31
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

This quote was used by Jehovah's Witnesses in the past to claim that Pleiades was the home of God. I cant see how you might interpert this verse alone minus the orion to justify that it is the center of the universe.

Besides the other versus look like this in context.

QUOTE

Job 38
8:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (38:4-6)
The earth is set on foundations and does not move.

How many sons does God have?
When were the stars made?
38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
38:19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
38:20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
38:21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, God has snow and hail stored up to use later "in time of trouble."
38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
38:24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
38:25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
38:27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?   Does God live in the Pleiades?
Jehovah's Witnesses used to believe that God lives on the planet Alcyone in the Pleiades cluster. The only biblical justification for this was this verse and 2 Chr.6:21. This belief was clearly stated in "Reconciliation" (1928): "But the greatness in size of other stars or planets is small when compared with the Pleiades in importance, because the Pleiades is the place of the eternal throne of God." This is just one of many JW beliefs that has since died a quiet death and is no longer mentioned in the Watchtower.
38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?
38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
38:37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven, "Who can stay the bottles of heaven?" Gosh, I don't know. I didn't even know there were any bottles in heaven.
38:38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
38:39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
38:40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

so why would he suddenly mention the middle of the universe inside a paragraph describing how powerless Job is?
by the way check 38:33 where he seems to say that man cannot know the laws of heaven, and by laws he is most likely referring to physical laws. So he says right after your fun lil quote that man cant know. Which is fine, but he wasnt imparting knowledge

Also on your telegraph thing. He didnt say anything about man sending a message with lightning, he is saying that lightning is his message. Besides he is saying that man cant send lightning, so if he is talking about sending a message via electricity as you claim then he is saying we cant do it, and to do so would be taking power from him.

Your methodology for determining meanings of ancient writings is somewhat bizarre, ive never heard of translated text being taken completely out of context to make a point. Normally the context of the text is very important when referring to translated text. You apparently though can derive deep meaning from a few words that were translated multiple time(oh and by pedophilic Priests too i might add)

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 19, 2005, 06:46:00 PM

QUOTE

By the way you didnt even show from the Koran that they were baby eaters or that they ritualistically sacrificed christians, you just showed justification for them being bad. Thats fine, but you didnt make a liar out of me, unless i missed a baby eating passage.

Since you like to avoid your error, I will deal with it. I guess I am the bigger man for acknowledging my error. It did say things of violent war against christians, but you will just avoid that to be right.

You know what, I am not going to debate over what I feel is the truth. There is no need, as no two humans think identical. You can think what you want, and I will believe what I want. Just like your made up profile for what christians say about muslims, and I quote

QUOTE

If i were to believe what i have heard from people, i would think that the Muslims are a bunch of satan worshipping baby eaters, who pray to satan and ritualistically sacrifice Christians.

So you only think muslims would be baby eaters? You would think they worshiped satan? Those would not be Muslims my friend, any moron(even $ony zombies) know they worship Allah. So what was really said to you. I bet is was something similar to what I said from their holy book. You, on the other hand, proceeded to make a very askew statement to make your point.

Enjoy life my friend. Have a beer.

Have two.

As I am very done with this debate over personal beliefs.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: damam on July 20, 2005, 09:45:00 AM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 19 2005, 12:30 PM)

Science is fluid, we often make mistakes, and have to go back and re-evaluate and modify our ideas. If you find a chink in the armor so to speak, we dont throw away the armor, we simply figure out why there exists a chink, and we fix it.

Since science is fluid, it is impossible to speak about absolute truths when using science. At best you can only talk about what you do not know, or what you know is not true in absulute truths. If I understand your definition of lieing correctly, than would not anyone who speaks of truths or with authority in science be lieing? In all likely hood, the theory of the moment that you are touting will be adjusted. Science never proves anything, it can only disprove ideas. When someones idea has been around for a long enough time, a consensus scientists place a judgement on that idea saying it is true. But science will never say it is true. Truth, is an alien concept to science as is consensus. And it will never be a source of authority, it is only an approach for inquirery and analysis. So your statement seems to suggest that people who use science to tout truths are actually lieing all the time, re-adjusting their lies to fit a new changed circumstance, and then continue on that lie.

QUOTE

Science excludes pre-existing notions from the scientific method. This doesnt mean that the idea is wrong, it just means that you cant approach a problem with a solution already in hand.

When I was in college I read a study done on phds. They were given bogus scientific evidence to support something that was not true, than asked to do an experiment that would demonstrate the ideas in the papers. What they found was that an overwhelming percentage of phds would adjust their experiments, and falsely interpret the results of the experiment to match them up with the papers. As this example shows, humans will always be the weakest link in science primarily because we often treat it as a religion and accept the results with a dogmatic type attitude.

When I use evolution to argue against creatonist, I always have an ace in the hole. Since science is fluid, if creatonist are right, evolution will simply "evolve" to match up with creationist theory given enough time.

Also, since no one seemed to mention this, most of the major christian sects, atleast officially do not say evolution is wrong. It is often the misinformed followers that do. In my area, mormons are the best example of this. Officially the LDS church has stated that evolution does not conflict with their religious beliefs, but the general population still does not buy it. The LDS church has even gone as far as trying to get the scientific community rename evolution to "Change through time" since evolution carries such a stigma with it.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 20, 2005, 11:11:00 AM

The study of false science has recently reached alarming levels. I completely agree. I do however disagree with the idea that since science deals in absolutes, anyone touting scientific theory as fact is lying. In the general since, nothing is fact. Descartes argued this to great degree. Science embraces the idea that what they think is fact today can change tomorrow. In general i feel that fact is also a fluid concept.

Nothing that we know from observation can be absolute. This could all be an illusion of our senses. Since science is based on observation alone, science can never be absolute. The problem is that if we approach our world with this perspective, then fact, and undeniable and absolute are all very misleading terms.

I am an engineer, and we engineers have a saying, close enough for all practical purposes. The idea is that math deals with absolutes, in the real world, those concepts of mathematical absolutes dont apply. We make approximations and in general they work. Science does the same thing, when i say that science is fluid i mean this, that we give a solution that works. This may not actually be the appropriate absolute truth, but it works in the system. You have learned that all objects fall to earth with the same acceleration. This is not entirely true, the difference is negligible, but different masses have different gravitational attraction.

Of course, you dont need to know this, so no one bothers to explain.

The point is that science is fact in the same way that the sky is blue is fact. Its fact enough that it really cant be argued, the only thing that can be discovered is that the sky is green, but then we were still right the difference is... the sky looks blue, but is actually green. It doesnt look green. Just as in science, some underlying principle might change, but the overall results of science will still be valid.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 20, 2005, 11:38:00 AM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 20 2005, 01:40 AM)

The point is that you lied. Now i am sure you didnt just make up the carbon dating thing for spite. I am sure you had heard that somewhere, but lets be fairly reasonable and assume that it was probably told to you by another Christian.

If the information was given to me from another source, how did I lie?

QUOTE(puckSR)

It wasnt your fault, you dont have a background in physics, or math, or chemistry, or biology.

For a person in Science, you seem to make many assumptions, not educated guesses. I would like to know in your infinite wisdom, how you made this hypothesis/educated guess. I for one, minor in Mathematics and major in Microcomputing Technology. I also have taken many of Physics courses.
If you made this guess based on anything presented in this thread, you have very poor judgement on what you can use. Someones personal/religious beliefs do not hold as a variable in Science.

QUOTE(puckSR)

There is no real science backing up creationism.

Wow, so you admit there is no Science backing up Evolution either? Everything in the Science of Evolution is an educated guess. A guess is not proof. There is no proof of Evolution. Why? ......................This brings me to a normal argument about the bible an creationism. The bible was written by man and therefore could have been altered by man. Science was devloped by man and has been altered by man.

In the end there is no argument as neither Science, or the Bible have solid proof/truth.

Here are some quotes from Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.(dont worry, i know you will doubt him)

QUOTE

http://incolor.inetn...rt/imp-107a.htm Evolutionists often insist that evolution is a proved fact of science, providing the very framework of scientific interpretation, especially in the biological sciences. This, of course, is nothing but wishful thinking. Evolution is not even a scientific hypothesis, since there is no conceivable way in which it can be tested.

Science is knowledge -- that which can be demonstrated and observed and repeated. Evolution cannot be proved, or even tested; it can only be believed.

Also

QUOTE

Sir Isaac Newton, a British scientist, once had a skillful mechanic make him a miniature replica of the solar system, with balls representing the planets geared together by cogs and belts so as to move in harmony when cranked. Later, Newton was visited by a scientist friend who did not believe in God.

One day as Newton sat reading in his study with his mechanism on a large table near him, his infidel friend stepped in. Scientist that he was, he recognized at a glance what was before him. Stepping up to it, he slowly turned the crank, and with undisguised admiration watched the heavenly bodies all move in their relative speed in their orbits. Standing off a few feet he exclaimed, "My, what an exquisite thing this is! Who made it?"

Without looking up from his book Newton answered, "Nobody!" Quickly turning to Newton, the infidel said, "Evidently you did not understand my question. I ask who made it?" Looking up, Newton solemnly assured him that nobody made it, but that the aggregation of the matter so much admired had just happened to assume the form it was in. But then the astonished infidel replied with some heat, "You must think I am a fool! Of course someone made it, and he is a genius, and I would like to know who he is."

Laying his book aside, Newton arose and laid a hand on his friend's shoulder. "This thing is but a puny imitation of a much grander system, whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without designer and maker; yet you profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?"

Minnesota Technology; Oct. 1957

Read that a few times so you can grasp what is really being said in the end.

QUOTE(damam)

So your statement seems to suggest that people who use science to tout truths are actually lieing all the time, re-adjusting their lies to fit a new changed circumstance, and then continue on that lie.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Maybe before you continue to throw stones, you stop to realize, you have been lying just as much as anyone else.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Statecowboy on July 20, 2005, 12:15:00 PM

QUOTE(runawaywarthog @ Jul 18 2005, 05:54 PM)

i agree to that.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: damam on July 20, 2005, 01:30:00 PM

QUOTE

I am an engineer, and we engineers have a saying, close enough for all practical purposes.

If I have understood your correctly, than you are speaking of relative truths. Or the flip side to that is relative-lies. One lie may have more evidence supporting it than another lie, but they are both still lies. When does a lie become close enough to the truth to become the truth? When it can be applied reliably? Getting back to the example of evolution. If your lie is "close enough for all practical purposes" then why is creationism not "close enough for all practical purposes." Since their is no practical purposes or applications to either one in the first place

I am not a creationist, but I do not think that macro evolution is anywhere near the point where "Its fact enough that it really cant be argued . . . "

If I have followed you correctly, then the only thing I think you can really say to your christian friends is that you think everyone is lieing, but you think your lie is a closer approximation to the truth than their lie. None-the-less you are lieing as well.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 20, 2005, 02:05:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 19 2005, 07:44 PM)

It is very very very clear that the statement is false, so here is my point, and listen up because this thread is not about religion versus science. You did not speak the truth. You publicly proclaimed a fact for which their was not truth. Do not try to tell me it was an accident, because if you make such blatant accidents in your written words, then you shouldnt be writing. You had most likely read somewhere the "fact" you stated, or heard it from a Christian friend. This "fact" i can prove completely false, there is no doubt. No scientist, be him Atheist or Christian Fundamentalist will argue that it was a false statement. The point is, i will only say things i am sure of, you will say whatever is convenient.

I would get off my high horse if I were you. If a fossil is carbon dated to begin with, it can't be millions of years old. Or did you forget how carbon dating works? Also, I want you to prove this "fact" as wrong since you still have not. Maybe you should count your lies within the above quote. Everything you said was a bend of the truth (aka lies) to fit your agenda. Once again, Who are you to throw stones?
http://www.answersin...Dino_tissue.asp
I would like to hear how you bend science to fit your agenda with this one. Why do I say this?

QUOTE

As philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn pointed out, what generally happens when a discovery contradicts a paradigm is that the paradigm is not discarded but modified, usually by making secondary assumptions, to accommodate the new evidence.

Here are more links. Read, it does the mind good.
http://www.answersin...nosaurbones.asp
http://www.oklahoma..../dinosaurs.html
http://www.cryingvoi...adiodating.html
http://www.angelfire...rbondating.html
http://www.geocities...0/toadevol.html

QUOTE

Radioactive dates
Evolutionists claim that radioactive methods establish absolute ages for rocks. If they really believed that, they would accept the results of careful radiometric measurements no matter what the outcome. In practice, however, evolutionists accept radioactive dates when they agree with their evolutionary bias, and reject them when they don't.

QUOTE

The accuracy of this method is just catastrophic [6]. Just consider the following ridiculous findings[7]:

* mortar from the 785 year old Oxford Castle in England was dated at 7,370 years old
* freshly killed seals were dated at 1,300 years and seals dead for 30 years at 4,600 years
* living snails being dated at 2,300 years old
* new wood cut from growing trees after few days was dated at 10,000 years
* muscle tissue from beneath the scalp of a mummified musk was dated to 24,000 years, while the the radiocarbon age of hair from a hind limb was established to be 17,200 yearsa rather long living animal as it appears!
Conclusion

After the discovery of the radiocarbon dating method, scientists tried to correlate their results with the dates "established" a century before. But they have not been able to do so. Of thousands of measurements, they have been able to correlate only three. These three successes were enough to make the original century old fossil/strata dating "scientific". It is on this basis that evolutionists claim that the fossiliferous strata have been dated by radioactive minerals!

Once again, I have yet to see you present one source of your information. Yet, you have done nothing but ask for sources. Before you speak of biased reports, you do understand anything written by a scientist would be considered biased?

Then there is the object of your lies that you have bended to be the truth. Just because a lie is closer to the truth, it does not become the truth.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 20, 2005, 04:07:00 PM

I may have misrepresented myself, after reading your newton anecdote. I do believe in God, and i do believe he created everything. But my definition of his miracle is much more powerful than yours.

You seem to be a man of philosphy, so i will bring up determinism. I find it particularly interesting, but you may hate it, anyways.

What if god didnt say poof-here is everything

What if god did something much grander, what if God created one event. One single subatomic act. This act could be whatever you want to eventually define as the beginning causality of the universe. God knows all, and he knew exactly how his action would effect everything else from now until the end of time. You may not like determinism though. So i will leave it alone

In other words, God didnt mold the earth out of clay 6000 years ago. God created the laws that govern our universe. He was responsible for the laws of physics, he was responsible for the laws of genetics. He was responsible for all natural laws.

Now lets get back to newtons story. Any toy maker could create things that spin around, but only a divine being could create a universe where everything fell together just right for our world to exist.

Now who has a more powerful idea of God? Your instant mash potato God, or my evolve a potato from a lifeless chunk of matter God?

I honestly think you people insult God's intelligence

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 20, 2005, 04:14:00 PM

QUOTE

After the discovery of the radiocarbon dating method, scientists tried to correlate their results with the dates "established" a century before. But they have not been able to do so. Of thousands of measurements, they have been able to correlate only three. These three successes were enough to make the original century old fossil/strata dating "scientific". It is on this basis that evolutionists claim that the fossiliferous strata have been dated by radioactive minerals!

QUOTE

carbon dating can only give thousands of years

http://www.christian...g/aig-c007.html

We really need to be careful to not refer to radioactive dating as carbon dating

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 20, 2005, 05:09:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 20 2005, 06:06 PM)

I never heard that to be science it had to be proven, could you please explain that comment?actually you dont have to

Science is something that can be demonstrated and observed and repeated............thus proven. Otherwise it is no more than fiction or half-truth. Theories, which are an assumption based on limited information or knowledge.
Also, don't forget that the absolute of one persons definition of a word can differ from anothers.

QUOTE

I consider it a lie since you didnt validate the claim
ignorance is no excuse

I have yet to see you validate your claims. All I have seen from you is bends of my truth.

QUOTE

You seem to be a man of philosphy, so i will bring up determinism. I find it particularly interesting, but you may hate it, anyways.

Explain why I may hate it? What gave you the idea that I may believe free will doesnt exist? How could I hate something that was given to me by my creator? I have the say in whether to follow him. I can choose my own destiny. We have all been put here for a purpose. It is at our discretion if we fill that purpose or not.

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 20 2005, 06:18 PM)

Now who has a more powerful idea of God? Your instant mash potato God, or my evolve a potato from a lifeless chunk of matter God?

I honestly think you people insult God's intelligence

Do you know what arrogance is? Creating theories does not make your idea of God any better than mine. You statement only proves your arrogance.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 20, 2005, 05:51:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 20 2005, 07:49 PM)

The theory of evolution can only be proven in the wild, because the hypothesis states that it occurs naturally. So we have observed evolution in the wild.

Please provide proof that evolution occurs. Please, by all means show me where evolution has happend in the wild. I need to see it before my eyes, in the wild. Otherwise it is only a theory. I hope you understand the difference between evolution and adaptation. It is also funny that Dinosaur bones and dating them were found around the same time as the science of evolution came about.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 20, 2005, 06:15:00 PM

evolution came about in 1859
dinosaur bones have been discovered as far back as 2000 years ago
but the scientific recognition of dinosaurs came about in 1824
so a difference of about 30 years. This of course would make sense, we find out that the world is much older than we thought, and we start to think about where it all came from. Its interesting to note that this is also the same time when the idea of heat as energy was formed by Joule(before we thought it was a liquid), took the first photograph, and the theory of electromagnetic induction was developed. I guess they were just really busy guys.

Whats your point? That the discovery of dinosaurs might have changed our views on biology?

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Ween311 on July 20, 2005, 07:30:00 PM

QUOTE

For the hundredth time, what claim do you want validated?

That wasn't really the hundredth time. Who is the liar now?

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: thewickedjester on July 20, 2005, 08:05:00 PM

QUOTE

I need to see it before my eyes, in the wild

Childish thing to say, to think that just because you cant see something it doesnt happen. Electrical impulses occur in our nerves and travel up whatever limb or other 'assorted' body part said nervers are in, up our spinal chord, and into our brain at which point our brain tells our conciousness "Oww, that really fucking hurt". Now, can you see this happen? You can feel the effects, you know it happened because some little voice in the back of your head said 'ow ow ow', but did you phsycially SEE an electrical impulse travel up said nerves, the spinal chord, into the brain, ect ect ect.

Heres another one, ** cute variant attempt for a torrent site **s (ok, it edited the word out, its the act when a star implodes on itself). Do you beleive in them? Have you seen one? No, you can see the products of it, the discharge a large ammount of light from the far off star as it gives its last breath and implodes on itself into a black hole. But have you seen the physical act of a star colapsing on itself? So does that mean that it doesnt happen?

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 20, 2005, 08:15:00 PM

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: thewickedjester on July 20, 2005, 09:27:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 20 2005, 10:26 PM)

it generally seems that people like him feel that denial of all other theories would prove their theories.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Statecowboy on July 20, 2005, 10:33:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 21 2005, 12:34 AM)

you know, i think i just figured something out. Im not sure where deftone is going to school, but try doing a google of his major. Microcomputing Technology

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Heet on July 21, 2005, 06:26:00 AM

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 21, 2005, 06:50:00 AM

QUOTE(puckSR)

It wasnt your fault, you dont have a background in physics, or math, or chemistry, or biology.

That was your justification that you know what you are talking about and that I don't.

Here is what I said about that statement.

QUOTE(deftonesmx17)

Now if you had reading comprehension, what was I saying? Was I justifying my arguments with my education or was I pointing out your wrong assumptions? I think anyone who knows how to read can figure this out. Guess what, I was pointing out your wrong assumptions, not justifying my argument with my education.

You know what the funny part is? You did try to justify your argument with your education.

QUOTE(puckSR)

I am an engineer, and we engineers have a saying, close enough for all practical purposes. The idea is that math deals with absolutes, in the real world, those concepts of mathematical absolutes dont apply. We make approximations and in general they work. Science does the same thing, when i say that science is fluid i mean this, that we give a solution that works. This may not actually be the appropriate absolute truth, but it works in the system.

So who is lying now? The person making false claims of me using my education to justify my argument.

I guess we all seem to also forget that in college, you can take whatever courses you want to. All you need is the prerequisites. One can create there own curriculum. Just because MCT is my main course of study, does not mean I can't take other courses outside of that.

P.S. Job well done. You provoked and proceeded to attack a christian. I could see from your fisrt post forward, that was your main course of action. It may have been subconscious. That doesnt matter. I saw it and any other believer saw it too. You can deny this(call me stubborn/blind or whatever, it does not affect me), but I will not listen as Satan works in mysterious ways.

Don't bother replying to me. I would rather sit back and watch you talk about me with everyone else.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 21, 2005, 08:46:00 AM

good, glad i dont have to defend basic scientific knowledge to a fundamentalist Chrisitian

OMG London was attacked again, lets have a moment of peace

All right, thats up.

To reply to an earlier post, im sure it wasnt chrisitans too, chrisitians are normally good kind people, they would never engage in terrorist actions. Unless they were blowing up an abortion clinic.

The problem is that it was almost certainly Fundamentalist Muslims.
WOW they are fundamentalist just like you. Fun

I fear fundamentalists, and do you know why?

They practice a form of religious McCarthyism. If your not with them, then your obviously Satanic. Its really hard to reason with them because of this.

History has taught us that fundamentalist movements usually mean bad things for society as a whole. Ill give you an example. The Christian Fundamentalist movement started at the beginning of the century. They got Prohibition started, and then we had all kinds of fun things like organized crime spring up because of it.

The muslims are going through a fundamentalist movement right now in the middle east. Oh and blowing stuff up as they go.

So here is what a fundamentalist is:someone you cant talk out of something(since their beliefs are holy), someone you cant reason with(because they are holy). Someone who thinks that it is their job to show us all the light(once again because they are holy), and someone who thinks that their society needs massive change to be holy(screw the rest of us).

America the Christian country? Where were all these christian roots you guys talk about. They used Locke as the main influence for the constitution, not the new testament, and they never said Jesus. If Our money said in Jesus we trust, then i wouldnt be arguing.

The point is, Christians lie, and the more they lie, the more people accept their beliefs. Some people say that the holocaust didnt happen, and the more those people are allowed to say crazy shit, the more people believe them. Now some people would argue the best solution is to ignore them, but i dont believe that is true. When someone says something insane, i ignore them. When they start convincing other people of the insanity, i stand up and defend my fellow citizenry.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Heet on July 21, 2005, 09:21:00 AM

Yup, and your fear is what disarms you. Meaning that their tactics are working (on you and people like you). Muslims are blowing up buses, running into churches (mosks) packed with explosives, cutting off heads of anyone that they can get ahold of, and causing havok around the world. Christians aren't. Christians believe in religious freedom. Do the muslims? Christians belive in freedom in general. Do the muslims? Mocking an attack on free people exposes you even further. You should go to one of the arab countries and submit your allegiance. We will all go to a p2p later and watch them chop off your head for the cause.

How far can you stick your head up your ass? Your so full of shit your trying to sell it.

About the abortion clinic comment. There are idiots (extremists) on both sides. A Christian bombed an abortion clinic and then Christians jailed him. When the muslims bomb and kill the majority of muslims applaud and give cheer.

Do you see a difference? I doubt it.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 21, 2005, 10:07:00 AM

Arrogance breeds ignorance.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Ween311 on July 21, 2005, 10:29:00 AM

QUOTE

yeah they celebrate, cause we are in america and they arent...they dont like america. your abortion clinic was celebrated by some(christians) and jailed by americans..not christians

Can we please have a source that shows they celebrate because we are in America and they aren't?

Can we please have a source that shows the police and judges and prosecutors that arrested and jailed clinic bombers were not Christian?

I know that you can't and I don't really expect you to, but you come on here claiming everything that someone says is a lie if they can't back it up. So if you are going to accuse everyone else, you need to check yourself before making these claims.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Heet on July 21, 2005, 11:49:00 AM

Im done.

http://www.gc.cuny.e...tudies/aris.pdf

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 21, 2005, 12:26:00 PM

QUOTE(Ween311 @ Jul 21 2005, 06:40 PM)

Can we please have a source that shows they celebrate because we are in America and they aren't?

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Tony42077 on July 21, 2005, 04:27:00 PM

I'll get back to you with my sources...

P.S. For someone who thinks that he knows that Christians lie more than any other group, you don't know very much about Christianity. It's based on faith, so not every Christian believes in the exact same things as each other. Ask your professors about, they seem to know everything.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Arvarden on July 25, 2005, 06:49:00 AM

"In his sermon on the mount, Jesus said:
Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

He also said:
You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

It seems abundantly clear to me that Jesus was in favour of tolerance and being nice to people. Yet some people come here to say they are christians and to preach hatred, mass deportation etc, with lashings of honest to goodness fascism.

This clearly goes against the bit where the good lord said "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven."
As any fule kno, by dying on the cross to relieve all men of their sins, Jesus was creating a new covenant between man and God. This covenant of grace takes precedence over previous covenants, therefore the teachings of the Christ take precedence over the ten commandments.

So, precisely how boned is whitepowers? Will he go to hell? I think we deserve to be told."

FrilliNix

"Christians, like any other religious people, come in all shapes and sizes and come with a massive diversity of faith and culture..some are as tolerant and peaceful as Jesus apparently intended where others are as narrowminded and fanatical as those so called muslim terrorists seem to be. One thing they both seem to forget is that in the holy writings of Christianity and the Holy writings of Islam (especially the latter) is the notion of a shared faith, in other words while they use a different name for God they both worship the exact same God (the Koran specifically states that Christians are brothers of Islam and that it was the very same Angel Gabriel that visited Mary who came to see Mohammed). Where you have problems is where people focus on the differences instead of the similarities and use those differences, however small, to insight hatred, hatred frowned upon by their own faith I might add. What makes it worse is when children are indoctrinated with the hatreds of their parents..I saw a documentary about Palestine once in which a Muslim woman took her 3 year old daughter to the grave of her husband who had been killed in an Israeli raid where she said to her daughter "Who killed your Daddy?" the girl answered "Filthy Israeli Jews", then the mother said "And what should we do to Israelis?" and the daughter said "Kill them all." A 3 year old girl and she's already being brainwashed into hatred. People like this "whitepowers" are the same as that palestinian woman, so ingrained is their hatred that they would happily corrupt the youngest and most impressionable minds. That will be the downfall of society, not the suicide bombers (although they themselves are similarly indoctrinated), the people who simply refuse to open their minds and see how human beings are human beings regardless of faith or colour or language and how faith and colour and language are simply not that different at all."

Kahless_uk

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 25, 2005, 07:16:00 AM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Jul 25 2005, 09:00 AM)

One thing they both seem to forget is that in the holy writings of Christianity and the Holy writings of Islam (especially the latter) is the notion of a shared faith, in other words while they use a different name for God they both worship the exact same God (the Koran specifically states that Christians are brothers of Islam and that it was the very same Angel Gabriel that visited Mary who came to see Mohammed).

Whoever wrote that stupid shit needs to read the Koran for themselves.

QUOTE

Some Koran Verses
3:117 - "Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people."
4:101 - "The unbelievers are your inveterate foe."
5:17 - "Unbelievers are those who declare: 'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary."
5:51 - "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another."
5:72 - "Unbelievers are those that say:'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary."
5:73 - "Unbelievers are those that say: 'God is one of three."
9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."
47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."
48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."
66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 25, 2005, 09:00:00 AM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Jul 25 2005, 10:39 AM)

Muslim scholars believe that any translation cannot be more than an approximate interpretation, intended only as a tool for the study and understanding of the original Arabic text.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 25, 2005, 10:30:00 AM

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Snoopster J on July 25, 2005, 11:31:00 PM

And yeah, there's a part that talks about dinosaurs

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: B4tm4n on July 26, 2005, 01:34:00 PM

QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Jul 25 2005, 05:11 PM)

There is always an excuse isnt there?

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: deftonesmx17 on July 26, 2005, 01:44:00 PM

QUOTE(B4tm4n @ Jul 26 2005, 03:45 PM)

About the lying Christians thing, its not just Christians who lie to justify their faith I think all religions do to a certain extent.

Very True.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: B4tm4n on July 26, 2005, 01:54:00 PM

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Jul 25 2005, 04:39 PM)

Muslim scholars believe that any translation cannot be more than an approximate interpretation, intended only as a tool for the study and understanding of the original Arabic text.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: damam on July 26, 2005, 02:34:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 26 2005, 07:18 AM)

MY question is...why are Christians so lacking in information?

I dont care what anyone says, science is to a large extent a religion to the vast majority of the population complete with high priests and dogmatic beliefs. People lay trust/faith that the scientist have done their work correctly. That the conclusions were logically sound. No one individually checks everything. And as you have pointed out bad science runs rampant even within the mainstream. So you have entire groups of people following mainstream science blindly being misinformed the entire time. How are fundamentalist christians any different. They are simply following a line of thought that is mainstream in their culture.

QUOTE

All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
---Ernest Rutherford

When you deal with the hard sciences the division between fact and fiction is much clearer. The further you go from applied physics the blurrier that line gets. And eventually you get areas of science that cannot be disproven because their is no way of testing them. Is it still science at that point? For me, if it cant be tested its not science, and should not be treated as fact. Macro evolution definitely falls into that categary.

Carbon dating is accurate to 13000 years. Anything beyond that is a WAG.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: damam on July 29, 2005, 02:33:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 26 2005, 11:14 AM)

Macroevolution can be tested, the problem is the debate over what is a test. A biologist would qualify the creation of new species from geological isolation as proof. The creationist might want us to develop humans from sludge. Often in science consolidation is made in respects to scale and detail of the test. You dont have to make a lifesize model of all of the planets, with the exact same features spin around in their orbits to prove that a fun combination of inertia and gravitational attraction is keeping them in place. If you can prove the concept on a smaller scale it is accepted, and if you have to prove your theory by parts, that under the right circumstances is acceptable as well.

not always. speciation is very hard to define. Most enviromentalists want to define speciation very broadly. They would have us believe that a hybrid, whether it is viable or not, is a new species. That salmon running in different streams are different species. If you were to take their definitions, than all the human races would essentially be different species. I would tend to define speciation in sexual species as the point at which to related species can no longer create a viable offspring. The only real test for macro evolution is keeping it in line with what is found in the fossil record, which is an extremely slow process and could take millenias to demonstrate. A mere 250 years is a drop in the bucket. Just read "The Origin of Species" and you can see how much evolution has evolved since its inseption. The next 250 years will undoubtedly yeild the app. same number of changes and it could very well refute what you are saying today. To prove theories, they have to be able to stand up to the rigors of time and macro evolution has changed to many times to really say it has done this.

again, however, you take what you are familiar with, a hard science, and try to apply it to macro evolution which is no where near a hard science. Macro evolution has no equations that must balance unlike the orientations of the planets. It is only stamp collecting. The difference between the two is like night and day.

QUOTE

The biggest problem with the whole dinosaur things is this... Paleontologists are guessing what came when...the argument against their guesses is that nothing came at all.

I am not creationist, but I dont think that statement is true about what they believe. I think you would find a range of oppinions. I know one person that believes they all drowned in the flood

But i dont believe i know anyone that says they never existed.

QUOTE

For 250 years weve been pouring over evidence, and no one has found anything to suggest that dinosaurs didnt exist a very, very long time ago. Oh and go beyond the carbon dating, since some people think it is inaccurate....lets give it an ice core date of 160,000 years old, thats when the ice started.
http://www.talkorigi...s/icecores.html

its to the point that it is accurate. To make claims of 65 million years ago and what not is beyond the reach that it is accurate. All that can be said is that they were here a long long time ago or before 13000 years.

QUOTE

i still dont get the point, what does it matter if dinosaurs were real or not? What does it matter if we evolved or not? Jesus is still Jesus, and you guys have already thrown out a great deal of the old testament. I think the issue really arises from some arrogant belief that you must be special, and evolution doesnt seem very special. If evolution was true you and animals are basically the same, except that your smarter.
Just because something offends you doesnt mean that its wrong. And just because someone is wrong, it doesnt mean that the guy still wasnt shot.

It doesnt matter to me either. What always concerns me is when science is treated as the end all because as you have stated it is fluid. The general public does not get that. When a scientists states something, regardless of how much she has to support it with, it is taken as concrete. Remember the big bang theory. To this day you will have people that will tell you that thats what killed all the dinosaurs, and yet the fossil record disproves this soundly. Science cant answer everything. Science can never define what happened in the universe at time=0 sec. The last I checked it could define (theoretically of course) what happened at time = 10^-47 sec. which may seem close, but is actually infinitely far away and again is not really testable.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: itsmee129 on July 29, 2005, 02:48:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 21 2005, 12:18 AM)

I do believe in God, and i do believe he created everything.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: oasiswr on July 30, 2005, 12:18:00 AM

With over a thousand cases of priest sexual misconduct on boys and girls not to mention other various strange acts including the case in louisana church group forced children to have sex with animals and other members of the church how can you trust any those so called prophets. Three months ago a couple in ohio was charged for sex abuse and also those charges in louisana. Just look at jimmy baker of years ago had that hottie secretary bend over any which way and he always considered himself closer to god. Man is both equally capable of good and evil that's the true battle you can forget absolutely all that junk from old testement what really matters is the teaching of christ in the new testement and if there is one you must always know that is the most important jesus said "the only way to my father' kingdom is through me by accepting me as your lord and savior jesus christ".

For the most part I believe religion is just a way to control the masses like sheep incapable of judging what is right and what is wrong thousands of years it has remained the same every religion fights wars to spread there faith (crusades,franco prussian wars) it's always the same man's will to force there ideals on others. The way I see if they are buddhist, hindu or jewish faith let them have there own ideals and live in peace at least they are not hurting or killing people. Probably the only man I believe deserves the true right of divinity is pope john paul very good man did things for others consouled the poor he even forgave his assain that is most definately something jesus would do and did. Through the early colonization of america religon was contoling out of fear you wasn't allowed to even to think of not showing up for church without being put in the stockade for 8 hours in a baking summer sun or even to accidently slip the lord name in vain without having your tongue nailed to a piece of wood.

Religion is just like anything else man't touches it becomes corrupted and abused to suit there own needs. Why else do you think they would pick a rapist, common thief and muderer rather than spare a simple common carpenter. Love thy own neighbor and love your enemies for if you hate your eniemies what point does that end.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on July 30, 2005, 12:34:00 AM

hey i started a new topic so that religion can at least be debated somewhat on topic, this topic was really just to figure out why some Christians behave the way they do. I think i figured it out

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: pug_ster on August 07, 2005, 04:09:00 PM

Christians can lie one minute and can be forgiven the next minute.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: kollapse on August 12, 2005, 01:13:00 AM

i agree with the original post. christians do lie, alot.
i call myself a christian and i was raised in a charismatic/evangelical church.
this church acted the way puckSR described in his original post. I fell victim to
this mindless way of thinking for a brief moment in time. then i actually started to
research what was being preached and i found that the things the preacher was
saying were in direct contradiciton to what the protestant bible says.
so i brought this to the attention of some other members and guess what?
i was kicked out of the church. i guess they don't like it when church members
start thinking about what they are being taught. anyway, i haven't found a church
that i am able to learn from since.

i say that to say this: not all people who call themselves "christian" believe the same things. there are alot of logical thinking people out there that are christian. they read the bible, study it even, for themselves and learn from it. then there are people who
follow the herd and believe whatever the guy in the pulpit throws at them. they don't
question it because that would require them to use their brains. they don't bother to
research what is said, they just take it as truth. these are the people who lie.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: The unProfessional on August 12, 2005, 10:33:00 AM

Religion was designed to direct thought and behavior... you stood up against that very principle.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: pug_ster on August 14, 2005, 10:44:00 PM

Christians thinks because they believe in JC, that nonbelievers will go to hell. Therefore nonbelievers are inferior to them. That's GW's belief, Christians first non-Christians are 2nd class.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: TheLovingSoundsofStatic on August 15, 2005, 02:30:00 PM

QUOTE(Im Gay @ Aug 15 2005, 07:32 AM)

can i have a quote please, but if he never said that then please dont say thats what he THINKS, because thats just your opinion, and not what he said. I could say that pug_ster belives in male sodomy and that he supports it 100%, but even though he might THINK like that i cant say thats what he really belives in becasue hes may not have ever even said it, so i cant just go aroudn saying that pug_ster has been done in the ass by many differnt men, because you never actually said it.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: pug_ster on August 15, 2005, 10:36:00 PM

QUOTE(Im Gay @ Aug 15 2005, 07:32 AM)

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Im Gay on August 16, 2005, 01:05:00 AM

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Aug 16 2005, 06:47 AM)

That's a really good conclusion. From my tone, I am obviously a cynic of Christianity and you said that I support male sodomy.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: pug_ster on August 16, 2005, 02:09:00 PM

QUOTE(Im Gay @ Aug 16 2005, 09:16 AM)

not only did you completly avoid my question, you also did the same thing again. You cant say "Think" or "belive" or "basically" without proof that thats how they feel or thats what they said, and about the school prayer you dont have to say a prayer in schools you dumb ass, the whole issue is about the pledge, because no public school in the WHOLE COUNTRY says a prayer in school, you arnt aloud, but anyways go ahead and give me some quotes as to how george bush "basically" said all muslims are terrorist. You cant just take a bucnh different things and put them together and say thats what he says. If your going to say something that ignorant at least give an attempt at trying to make yourself not look like an idiot, and avoid the question you were asked.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: thewickedjester on August 18, 2005, 06:53:00 PM

QUOTE

In GW's case, he tried pushing many of the pro-Christian beliefs like stem cell research, abortion, school prayers, etc onto the mainstream government. What about representing other people of different creed? And after 9/11 he basically pointed as all muslims as terrorists making them as 3rd class citizens. Do you think that is fair?

1) Keep this in mind, he may have his own agenda but in the end he cant overturn a law about abortion or school prayer himself. The president has little or no pull in local law, such as the ones governing your schools dealings with prayer. That is all decided by YOUR (or your parents) elected officials. He can do nothing more than endorse it, or veto a law being talked about placed into law. In the end, it must still pass Congress and the House of Representatives.

2) He was *I'm a huge critic of the voting system, but in an ideal situation* voted into office by the majority of people, therefore a majority of people agree with his beleifs and agendas, therefor what he wants is the same as the majority. You cant complain about this because its supposedly the basis of a democracy. Majority rules.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: itsmee129 on August 18, 2005, 08:33:00 PM

QUOTE

Why Do Christians Lie So Much?

becasue they want you to join their damned religion

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: pug_ster on August 22, 2005, 09:32:00 AM

I have to agree with you that most Christians are probably honest people in the bible. However, there are several notable lying evangelists (especially the ones that you watch on tv infomercials), Priests who molest on young children, and someone in the White House that makes you wonder if Christians are as honest as they seem.

However, it is unfortunate that the President has to use his 'Christian Crusade' as a his policy instead of separation of church and state. He cheated, lied, took advantage of Christians, and his stupidity tarnished the credibility of US and many Christians alike.

Edit: Christians are guilty too because the Church forgive Priests who molest on Children and backing the President even though he led the country to the wrong path.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on August 24, 2005, 11:03:00 AM

QUOTE

as per your question, "Why do Christians lie so much?" As a pastor, I would be lying if I said that the members of my church never lie. Some of them have lied directly to my face. However, I would also submit to you that the Christians whom I know well, that is, I know where they stand in their relationship with Christ, they tend to lie much less than nonbelievers. And, when they do lie, they frequently repent and acknowledge their behavior later on, even if they weren't going to be caught in a lie.

If you would have read my comments after the initial topic you would realize that im not referring to christians lying about trivial matters. My problem is that Christians often hold false beliefs. Im not challenging their religious beliefs, only their secular ones. In other words, they dont bother to check their facts. This is fine, many people do this every day. The problem is that many Christians later use these "facts" to make claims supporting their religion. I have even on occasion heard Christians make good arguments, that are valid, except that they arent using the correct facts. The argument would be just as good with the correct facts.

QUOTE

I realize that this thread is probably just a political attack against the president, but what I'm talking about goes beyond the scope of politics.

Once again your proving my point, first you dont really care about the true topic, you simply want to make your statement. This isnt the quintessential quote for this, but its the general theme of your post. You also make some fairly grand assumptions. Now you seem intelligent and well-read. Please read at least my posts on the topic and reply. Im not even attacking christianity, im suggesting that their is a fundamental flaw in their current approach to knowledge.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: xmedia2004 on September 05, 2005, 12:29:00 AM

I was raised Christrian and over the past few years I have been ashamed to call
myself that. Fallwell, and Robertson are only showing their true colors and the rest of the likes of them.

I recently moved from Mass, and they have been grabbing little boys backsides
for years and years in the Catholic Church. One of the biggest sins is to be homosexual. And no one has truly been held accountable.

They just paid there way out of it.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: MysteryRidah on September 05, 2005, 01:05:00 AM

Everybody lies at some point of thier life, dont matter who you are, everyone lies.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Heet on September 05, 2005, 01:16:00 AM

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: xmedia2004 on September 05, 2005, 01:19:00 AM

QUOTE

Ah, Massachusetts Xmedia? Man all you had to tell me was that and I could have pegged you as a super liberal long ago.

It gets better now, I am in Clinton Land.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Heet on September 05, 2005, 01:23:00 AM

Massachusetts is clinton land. But im thinking you meant Arkansas, if so better look at the last two elections. Judging from the votes cast, I wouldnt call it that.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: xmedia2004 on September 07, 2005, 01:07:00 AM

Christians lie, Muslims lie, Jews lie a whole lot.

Bill O Reilley is the one true god

Follow HIM

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: hugoboss1 on September 21, 2005, 10:18:00 AM

because we are all human......everyone lies one time or another....(or exagerates somethig)

at least christians believe that a little lie is the same as a big one....you cant be so stereo type its like saying all black people steal and all whites have a little penis.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Psykomantis00 on September 21, 2005, 10:47:00 AM

QUOTE(hugoboss1 @ Sep 21 2005, 06:29 PM)

because we are all human......everyone lies one time or another....(or exagerates somethig)

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Psykomantis00 on September 21, 2005, 10:51:00 AM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Sep 21 2005, 07:00 PM)

sorry hugo, let me explain

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: hugoboss1 on September 21, 2005, 11:34:00 AM

my fault for not reading the whole thread......

my overall view on religion is basic...

say you were born christian,muslim,jewish,ect.ect. you will most likely follow in the same path so if that is the religion my parents had then should you be wrong or will god judge me or will i go to hell ....in dont think so...

Now i think if you live a good life and dont have hate in your heart treat people with honor and respect... you should be good to go..and thats the problem today with religon saying we are right and you are wrong and your going to hell if you dont repent...who are we to judge in life i think there is one thing that is for sure
tomorrow is not promist to anyone so live every day as if it were the last...

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Psykomantis00 on September 21, 2005, 11:37:00 AM

QUOTE(hugoboss1 @ Sep 21 2005, 07:45 PM)

my fault for not reading the whole thread......

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: xmedia2004 on September 21, 2005, 11:45:00 AM

QUOTE(Psykomantis00 @ Sep 21 2005, 07:02 PM)

Even us true christians frown upon that type.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: hugoboss1 on September 21, 2005, 11:53:00 AM

QUOTE(Psykomantis00 @ Sep 21 2005, 01:48 PM)

The only way to get into heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior. Even the heathens get in because they accepted Jesus, just because you are a good person doesnt get you into Heaven.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: xmedia2004 on September 21, 2005, 12:27:00 PM

QUOTE(hugoboss1 @ Sep 21 2005, 08:04 PM)

so is it fair that a serial killer or a child molestor before he dies does that he should go to heaven???

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Psykomantis00 on September 21, 2005, 12:35:00 PM

QUOTE(xmedia2004 @ Sep 21 2005, 07:56 PM)

American religion is all one big cult.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Psykomantis00 on September 21, 2005, 12:37:00 PM

QUOTE(hugoboss1 @ Sep 21 2005, 08:04 PM)

so is it fair that a serial killer or a child molestor before he dies does that he should go to heaven???

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: xmedia2004 on September 21, 2005, 12:39:00 PM

QUOTE(Psykomantis00 @ Sep 21 2005, 08:48 PM)

Yes, its fair because Jesus will forgive them for their sin's if they ask. But they have to mean it and you cant fool Jesus.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: puckSR on September 21, 2005, 12:42:00 PM

QUOTE

American religion is all one big cult.

Let me see:

1) Pat Roberts thinks we should kill everyone that disagrees with us
2) Jerry Falwell hates JEWS
3) Loius Farrakhan hates JEWS

starts off good, and kinda honest, and i am with you

QUOTE

4) Catholic Church probably hates JEWS, but not as much as they LIKE little boys

Ok a cheap shot, and a little shady, but im still with you

QUOTE

5) JEWS dont believe in anything relevant to life in 21st century other than killing
A Rabs.

Really reaching here, starting to sound like an idiot

QUOTE

6) Remaining Christhain faiths beleive marrying their cousins is legal

And the last dig just destroys any point you were trying to make by being flat out false and insulting.

Seriously, i love insulting, i think it is hilarious.
Its just that you went from making a point with some honesty, to flat out lying for a cheap joke. Its just not working. Kinda like your understanding of mathematics.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Psykomantis00 on September 21, 2005, 12:50:00 PM

QUOTE(puckSR @ Sep 21 2005, 08:20 PM)

Hmm, define fair? Not to go off on a tangent, but the theory behind catholic reconciliation goes into great detail about this, and why it is fair. Its an interesting read if you would like

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: xmedia2004 on September 21, 2005, 01:35:00 PM

QUOTE

Muslims dont believe that Jesus is the son of God, thats the only reason they are not Christians. They say that you need the seed of a man and the seed of a woman to deliver a child. If you go to hospitals and see a muslim man getting prayer from a Catholic priest, this is normal becuase they believe in Mary, and they believe that Jesus was the son of mary, but they dont believe that God was the father. There are many ex-muslims that are now christians because they found a flaw in their own bible. In their bible it said that no man could enter heaven (no human body) because they would be engulfed in flames and die. But Jesus did enter God's chamber or whatever and was not engulfed in flames and he survived. This muslim that told me all of this showed scriptures and everything as to why he converted to being a christian. He said that because Jesus did enter and talk to God directly and not through prayer that he was not human at all, he was part God because he had God's seed.

Actually Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism.

JEWS dont believe in Jesus Christ or the trinity

Worship of MARY is IDOLATRY and that is a sin. (i.e the whole protest/protestant thing. Christians believe that prayers are sent to JESUS, i.e blood of the lamb
and this excuses you of your sin. Not Mary.

QUOTE

In their bible it said that no man could enter heaven (no human body) because they would be engulfed in flames and die. But Jesus did enter God's chamber or whatever and was not engulfed in flames and he survived.

What verse chapter and page say this??

P.S. Jesus isnt a merely a man so point is mute.

QUOTE

there are alot of things alot of people dont know about many different religion's. To understand your own you must not only know your religion, but the religion of others.

None of which are demonstrated here.

QUOTE

There will be a movement soon (next couple of decades) that will convert the entire middle east into christianity. Just wait and see And how do I know this? Because it came from the bible

The God of the christian bible established a covenant with little boy named Ishmael
he was the son of Abraham and an ethiopian women. Ishmael is the father of the
A Rab races, his half brother Isaac(Israel) is the father of the 12 tribes.

Your whole post is propapaganda.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Psykomantis00 on September 21, 2005, 02:31:00 PM

QUOTE(xmedia2004 @ Sep 21 2005, 09:46 PM)

Actually Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: xmedia2004 on September 21, 2005, 02:47:00 PM

QUOTE(Psykomantis00 @ Sep 21 2005, 10:42 PM)

You either cannot read or did not read. I said THEIR bible, not ours. Im not sure of the name.

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: Psykomantis00 on September 21, 2005, 02:51:00 PM

QUOTE(xmedia2004 @ Sep 21 2005, 10:58 PM)

Again, "What verse chapter and page say this??"

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: xmedia2004 on September 21, 2005, 03:01:00 PM

QUOTE(Psykomantis00 @ Sep 21 2005, 11:02 PM)

I found the block button

Title: Why Do Christians Lie So Much?
Post by: xmedia2004 on September 21, 2005, 03:08:00 PM

I will let this idiot speak for me......

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