Post by: Novahux on March 14, 2003, 08:05:00 AM
My personal belief is that a rational person would have to be Agnostic. And that the other two are missguided. But I expect to be in the minority here.
examples to help you decide your vote;
Religious person is Gnostic = to have knowledge of (God)
Undecided person is Agnostic = Lack of knowledge (needs proof)
Non religious person is an Atheist = To believe that there is no GOD.
Post by: Lbtg43 on March 14, 2003, 08:07:00 AM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 14, 2003, 08:12:00 AM
Post by: Novahux on March 14, 2003, 08:16:00 AM
Post by: Wong Hung Lo on March 14, 2003, 08:18:00 AM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 14, 2003, 08:18:00 AM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 14, 2003, 08:19:00 AM
Post by: marduke on March 14, 2003, 08:20:00 AM
Post by: kkattfish on March 14, 2003, 08:22:00 AM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 14, 2003, 08:23:00 AM
Post by: Novahux on March 14, 2003, 08:24:00 AM
Jack Daniels, Jim Beam, Johnny Walker.
That would make me Alcohnostic
Post by: Wong Hung Lo on March 14, 2003, 08:24:00 AM
| QUOTE (kkattfish @ Mar 14 2003, 12:22 PM) |
| i believe in strawberry sundaes, yummmmmm.... |
What about titties and icecream?
Post by: LepPpeR on March 14, 2003, 08:28:00 AM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 14, 2003, 08:28:00 AM
I replied...
"hell no.. FUCK DOG"
... little redneck humour...
Post by: Novahux on March 14, 2003, 08:29:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| What about titties and icecream? |
That would make church interesting.
Instead of eating that piece of stale bread..
Post by: Novahux on March 14, 2003, 09:07:00 AM
Post by: gainpresence on March 14, 2003, 10:18:00 AM
| QUOTE (Mage @ Mar 14 2003, 12:11 PM) |
One thing I find funny are 'religious' people who do indeed commit copyright infringement...you know who you are!  |
Eh?
Post by: Mage on March 14, 2003, 10:24:00 AM
| QUOTE (gainpresence @ Mar 14 2003, 11:18 AM) | ||
Eh? |
Eh?
What's to eh?
Post by: gainpresence on March 14, 2003, 10:25:00 AM
Post by: Mage on March 14, 2003, 10:31:00 AM
Since if a person believes that their actions here will affect their after-life, why would they waste eternal life for a few hours of pleasure? Seems silly to me.
Post by: phantazma1 on March 14, 2003, 10:44:00 AM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 14, 2003, 11:08:00 AM
Post by: XxxTHEILLONExxX on March 14, 2003, 11:10:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| i'm buddhist!!! we'll see who goes to heaven and who doesn't.... |
also im a agnostic because i sorta do believe there is a god and there isnt because it hasnt been proven or anything and some things about god thst dont connect...also i dont praise the lord as in go to church...this is beacuse i sure as hell am not listening to some songs and passages from the bible to show that i love or belive in god thats ubsurd...i dont have to go to his sancutary to show love for this higher power...but of course the answer to wether god is real or not will most likley not be proven
all i have too say is i dont know and i truley dont give a shit...lets say im nuetral
Post by: Novahux on March 14, 2003, 11:23:00 AM
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 14, 2003, 11:27:00 AM
Post by: Lbtg43 on March 14, 2003, 11:43:00 AM
| QUOTE (DaMulder @ Mar 14 2003, 03:26 PM) |
| I am sorry guys but you are all wrong! The idea of a supreme "being" guiding the fate of mankind is just too absurd. What is far more likely is an eternal predestination of everything. Just think about it: Time is just another dimension like width or depth and is only defined by speed. Do you really belief that 3 dimensions are in perfect order following strict physical rules while the 4th dimension (time) just randomly floats around and just randomly lets things happen the way they do? Just too unlikely! After all humans can only define time because the universe is moving (easiest example 1 day is one 360° spin of our planet) and our perception of time is therefore an extremely limited one. To pinpoint a certain point you need at least 4 dimensions, 3 dimenions tell you where is it and the 4th tells you when. The 4th one cannot just be random as there is also a theory from Einstein suggesting that inside a black hole time and space switch placed due to the enormous pressure. That means you would see space passing while you can move your place in time. All these support my theory that everything has to be predestined as there cannot be anything random happening. The illusion of the freedom of personal decision is a very convenient one but it just cannot really be supported in any way. I am sorry that I confused some of you now and I really do not mean to offend religious people as everybody has his own right to believe what they like. But after years of thinking about it I came to this only plausible conclusion for me. Thanks for reading the whole thing and I guess I should write a book about it now... Phil |
i love how you say your ALLwrong when a good half of s are atheist like you
you should come on over to http://forums.xbox-s...&t=37020&st=135 ...its same tpye of post as this except it seems more populuar
Post by: DaMulder on March 14, 2003, 12:12:00 PM
Phil
Post by: Lbtg43 on March 14, 2003, 12:24:00 PM
that why i failed 8th grade english
Post by: Wargen on March 14, 2003, 12:28:00 PM
Post by: Lbtg43 on March 14, 2003, 12:44:00 PM
| QUOTE (Wargen @ Mar 14 2003, 04:28 PM) |
| There is ABSOLUTELY a God! For those who doesn't believe in God, start reading the Bible, please! |
and might i add, there is absolutely such things as talking ducks and pigs with lisps. for those of you who dont belive start reading some looney tunes books(yes, they do exist)
Post by: Raised on March 14, 2003, 12:54:00 PM
| QUOTE (Wong Hung Lo @ Mar 14 2003, 12:18 PM) |
| Did you hear the one about a dyslexic agnostic who sat around wondering if there really was a DOG? |
man, you so cwwaaaazeeyy!
I believe KISS are GODS man, GODS.
Post by: Raised on March 14, 2003, 01:01:00 PM
| QUOTE (Horizon @ Mar 14 2003, 04:57 PM) | ||
Oh, you're right! How could I be sooo blind!?! |
You're probably going to Hell for saying that, you know...
Post by: Mage on March 14, 2003, 04:13:00 PM
| QUOTE (Horizon @ Mar 14 2003, 04:15 PM) |
LOL! That's my God for ya.  God: "You don't believe...TO THE BOWELS OF BLOODY HELL WIT YA!"  What a nice guy. Oh well. I had a good run. |
Haha yeah it's funny.
No proof at all of his existance, and yet if we don't believe in him then we're punished?
It seems insane to believe such a being would do things like that...however we'll see once we die
Post by: johnnobts on March 14, 2003, 04:46:00 PM
Post by: penguinofdoom564 on March 14, 2003, 04:49:00 PM
Post by: Raised on March 14, 2003, 06:37:00 PM
| QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Mar 14 2003, 10:23 PM) |
| I WAN go WIV JESA! I WAN GO WIV CHRIZ! I CUN GO TO HEVUN IF I ACK REAL NIZE! -I'll buy anyone an emoticon beer if you can identify this quote... I vote atheist, although I certainly agree with Phil that there are strong elements of nihilism in my view. Although, as to his point that having an alternative is better than nothing...well, that's true sometimes, and sometimes it isn't. It all depends on your system of priorities. |
Sammie from Hannibal.
I want my beer cold, and leave it in the bottle.
Post by: Lizard_King on March 14, 2003, 07:59:00 PM
| QUOTE (Raised @ Mar 15 2003, 03:37 AM) | ||
Sammie from Hannibal. I want my beer cold, and leave it in the bottle. |
Really? No Shit? I never bothered to read Hannibal, but I was quoting Miggs, Hannibal Lecter's neighbour in the asylum, from Silence Of The Lambs (the book, not the movie...Miggs was too fucked up for even the movie, although I think they do mention that Lecter talked him into swallowing his own tongue).
Thomas Harris must have recycled his "dialogues"....how bizarre.
At any rate....
Post by: Raised on March 14, 2003, 08:06:00 PM
Post by: mnemonick on March 15, 2003, 02:14:00 PM
Post by: MartialXboxArtist on March 15, 2003, 02:47:00 PM
Man, I should start a church and earn Tax free money like Benny Hinn that b*stard... There was Jesus, but he would hate that the churches too if he was alive.
Post by: bagel5009 on March 15, 2003, 04:03:00 PM
Post by: Hammy on March 15, 2003, 06:57:00 PM
Post by: Novahux on March 15, 2003, 08:48:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| MartialXboxArtist Posted on Mar 15 2003, 11:47 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All religions are man made and that is all there is to it. There's ONLY GOD, you don't need a religion to love the man upstairs. Not to mention the churches, it's the BEST business to suck the hard earn money from all the followers. Some of you may get pissed reading this, but look at the facts. They say that Money is the root of all evil, but why is Vatican city the richest city? Man, I should start a church and earn Tax free money like Benny Hinn that b*stard... There was Jesus, but he would hate that the churches too if he was alive. |
| QUOTE |
I respect everyone's belief, but man, if you LIVE by the bible and try to shove it on everyone you know then you got some serious issues. Be your own religion and just believe in yourself. Do good, the Man upstairs will love you, and save the money you would give to the church and by lots of Xbox video games and accessories. |
Well said
Post by: Jsmith on March 15, 2003, 09:20:00 PM
| QUOTE (mnemonick @ Mar 15 2003, 05:14 PM) |
| If everyone beleived there is no concequence for our wrong doings when we die, no judgement. Then there would be caos. More people believe in GOD than admit it. Anyone in a dying situation, watch them pray (just in case). The more athiest we have in this world, the worse things will get.... |
Fear of jail is just as scary as fear of hell.
More people are atheist than you think.
I'm actually surprised when I hear someone say that they're truly religious. The bible is like a children's book. Does anyone actually believe the stories it tells?
It's one thing to believe in god, but another thing to believe in religion. Religion is just so ridiculous...I can't believe there are so many followers.
Post by: Jsmith on March 15, 2003, 09:23:00 PM
Is it raining toads by you guys? I gotta get out of here.
Post by: Novahux on March 15, 2003, 09:43:00 PM
A while ago they run a special on the plagues of Egypt. All the plagues were reasonably proven to be natural events.
the strongest augment of Bible fraud/myth is the explanation of the most baffling plague of all. The creeping Death.
Evidence to its myth is numerous quantities of poisoned grain found in ceramic jars dating to the time of Moses.
The grain poison is common today and is a result of it being stored out of sunlight and in anaerobic conditions before it is properly ripe or dried.
And it is a reasonably proven fact that ancient Egyptians fed their first born sons 2-5 times the grain rations of the other family members.
Hence the plague of the Creeping death is explained.
SEE BIBLE MYTHS
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 15, 2003, 10:50:00 PM
If you dont get it... you don;t beieve in God but you believe in god. there is a difference. and if you hold any religion athiest w/e, you should kno it
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 15, 2003, 10:58:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mage @ Mar 16 2003, 07:56 AM) | ||
Um that doesn't really make too much sense... Also 'fact' that God/Gods exists? What facts are those? That's the trick, you cannot prove nor disprove it...it's just faith. |
God vs gods notice in this subj. caps mean a lot
Post by: Lizard_King on March 15, 2003, 11:00:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mage @ Mar 16 2003, 07:56 AM) | ||
Um that doesn't really make too much sense... Also 'fact' that God/Gods exists? What facts are those? That's the trick, you cannot prove nor disprove it...it's just faith. |
I think rebel was speaking of god in the broader sense, as in what people ultimately worship as their reason for living.
rebel soul
Don't you think the word loses its meaning when it is defined as broadly as you you wish to? You really don't see a sufficient difference between a God and a god for an atheist to be a valid description of a person?
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 15, 2003, 11:05:00 PM
but i do see where u come from 
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 15, 2003, 11:08:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mage @ Mar 16 2003, 08:06 AM) |
| Yes, but saying justification for your existance is god is not the meaning of god. |
im confused with that one, sorry
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 15, 2003, 11:12:00 PM
ciao
Post by: Horizon on March 16, 2003, 01:23:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Anyone in a dying situation, watch them pray (just in case). |
Its unfortunately true what mnemonick said. Kinda like that statement: "There are no atheist in a foxhole." But that definitely does not apply to *every* atheist or agnostic. Again I'm agnostic but I was asked the ol question if I would pray on my death bed. I know if there really is an "all knowing God" then he'll know what to do with me. Last minute praying aint gonna do me no good. I think some people do last minute praying because of how and where they are brought up. Religion and prayer are so common place especially in a life or death situation. It's drilled into our brains. They think, what do they got to lose by some last chance praying. Which by the way reminds me. I work with a guy in my office who is one of the most religious people I know. I give that man the upmost respect because he truly lives his life "for the lord". To me there should not be a half assed christian. If you are going to live a truly christian life then live it to the fullest. Dont pull God out when its convenient. And I guess the same goes for a so called *true* atheist.
I got to get this off my chest...I work at an architectural firm doing 3D animations. All but two or three people are EXTREMELY religious. 95% of our commercial projects we do are churches. I am so amazed at how big these churches are and how much they cost to build. To me spending that much money on a place of worship is sickening. They could be using that money on so much more worthwhile issues. Is that where all the donations go so they can have a great sound system,cool drop down screens, and seat 3k to 5k people?
And like MartialXboxArtist said please don't push your beliefs on people. Maybe I've contradicted myself in this post but this *is* an open discussion. I truly value everyone beliefs. I feel whatever works and makes you happy go with it. One guy at my office asked if I go to church. Of course I said no. Then he starts saying how the lord loves me, how he loves me and shit, and how years ago some "intelligent" people went on a journey to disprove God and couldn't and in the end began believing. I loved how he used the word intelligent. As if to say your stupid for not believing. I wanted to tell him to shut the fuck up...respect me and my beliefs as I would yours. But I just shook my head to show I was listening. Is it me or should things like religion and politics not take place at work? At least kept at a bare minimum?
With that said it's 4am.
Post by: jujupinto85 on March 16, 2003, 04:15:00 AM
and wont ever persue what they beleive in, except what they feel about it, and wake up but HELLO cuz not everything u feel is right, if you want to even attempt to disprove something, get some knowledge on it, take some theology classes, and spend the rest of your life to do so, cuz you will never ever deny the existence of God..| QUOTE |
| I got to get this off my chest...I work at an architectural firm doing 3D animations. All but two or three people are EXTREMELY religious. 95% of our commercial projects we do are churches. I am so amazed at how big these churches are and how much they cost to build. To me spending that much money on a place of worship is sickening. They could be using that money on so much more worthwhile issues. Is that where all the donations go so they can have a great sound system,cool drop down screens, and seat 3k to 5k people? |
Horizon, well buddy look at this, people who beleive in somthing, like say the Red SOX or the YANKIES or even those NEw England Patriots, want to be able to show it off, so they build them new stadiums or the what not, and even companies like NIKE and i dunno, HOOD MILK
spend shit, millions of dollars on commericials, so who cares if we spends money on big churches. a small church is just as good as a new church, but also there is nothing bad with a church, nothing goes wrong and u cant say its a bad thing, unless hmmmm it makes everyones taxes go up so much that they are barely making it by, then yes it would be bad, because it wouldnt be morrally good, so just think, before u type, they spend money cuz the want to worship in good fasion, look NIKE spends money to SELL their crap products so common u tell me, whats better??well its SUNDAY, so i gotta get ready for 930 mass
Post by: Novahux on March 16, 2003, 04:37:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| "jujupinto85" these qustions prove that there must be sumthing out there that is of emmence power because how could everything be perfect, when perfect is near impossible to attain?? |
I don't understand how you could class anything on earth as perfect. most of the Fauna on earth is in a kill or be killed situation. Some nature shows make me sick when you see a majestic lion crushing the skull of a baby antelope with its jaws.
Humans are the worst of all, Rape, genocide, Torture, child abuse, home invasions, suicide cults, environment destruction etc etc *x1000 other despicable acts.
If Man is the image of GOD, than I'd rather go to Hell than get what god has to offer.
Post by: chilin_dude on March 16, 2003, 04:54:00 AM
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 16, 2003, 05:08:00 AM
Post by: capt_n_yayo on March 16, 2003, 07:21:00 AM
Its all too much to put a bead on. 
This stuff is interesting!
Post by: jujupinto85 on March 16, 2003, 07:39:00 AM
| QUOTE (Novahux @ Mar 16 2003, 08:37 AM) | ||
I don't understand how you could class anything on earth as perfect. most of the Fauna on earth is in a kill or be killed situation. Some nature shows make me sick when you see a majestic lion crushing the skull of a baby antelope with its jaws. Humans are the worst of all, Rape, genocide, Torture, child abuse, home invasions, suicide cults, environment destruction etc etc *x1000 other despicable acts. If Man is the image of GOD, than I'd rather go to Hell than get what god has to offer. |
Novahux, umm i think you misinterpreted what i said, yes nature is really gross, i hate those wildlife shows, and humans are the worst of all, because we are so stupid and like killing each other "like a virus" from the Matrix
but the facts that make up nature, like chemistry and how the world works, is unbelivable, i mean, how can all these things work, without something behind them, i mean, everything goes back so far, but then u can't explain nemore, and thts because God created them
God is like an artist and a super genious, he created the world w/ amazing life and skill and wonder,
i guess what im trying is that the Universe is ORDERLY and full of ORDER, so... what brings all that to ORDER, there Has to be something behind it...
Post by: AdmStng on March 16, 2003, 08:20:00 AM
for all those who do beleive in a god let me ask these Q's?
if heaven wasn't so great, would you still wanna go?
Why do people only prey when somthing bad happenes?
fill in the blanks.. when something BAD happenes we say "oh my ____" and why?
If you read every single koron, bible, etc, etc.. would you still beleive in your god?
when you go to church (if you even do) does it seem like you have many UNanswered questions?
Post by: jujupinto85 on March 16, 2003, 08:38:00 AM
| QUOTE (Mage @ Mar 16 2003, 12:02 PM) |
| Saying believers of god are right and everyone else is wrong will get nowhere in an open discussion like this. When a person believes in God, many times that nullifies their opinion. Like for example, to cure cancer, could you kill one innocent person? Many religious people answer no saying that everyone who dies of cancer can make it to heaven, however more rational people will believe that the sacrafice of the single for the good of mankind is the right choice. Ask one of the people who are dying of cancer what their opinion is...or your opinion when you get cancer. That reminds me of the stem cell issue but that is a whole different tangent. It's the state of mind, where everyone else is wrong, that upsets me about the majority of religious sects, Christanity included. |
Mage your right, i shouldnt go talkin like that about how, IM right and all those athesits are wrong, cuz they just aint cool and no one should do that.
for the cancer bit... welll i would say its okay to have one person die for cancer to help find a cure, but that doesnt make it right to go ahead, inject him with cancer like some guinea pig and find out what happens, that is just wrong, and you dont need divine inspiration for that one, its just written in the natural law enscribed in our souls and hearts,
stem cell reasaerch, is yes way off topic, sure i love to see something happen for the good, but doesnt mean it'll be "morally good" or ethical, remeber the ends never justify the means, espically with working with ethics. we had this priest come in and i swear he look and sounded like tom hanks but the thing is that he was the head of the US moral ethics thing, i dunno, and he gave a big long speech on it, really interesting.
AdmStng,
O my God - is a saying, that people have been saying for a while, and no people dont only use it when somtihgn bad happens, and for those who do, they like blaming God for everything, when we shouldnt be complaing but trying to fix the problem or cope with the suffering and help others,
Yes there are many unaswered questions, mny of them i would love to know, remeber the Church is runned by humans, and of course we humans always make mistakes
honestly i dont read my bible, i do read the catechism, but thts only for class, im not sola scriptura so the bible aint everything, tho is a good piece of work, and most of that stuff u can relate to neways,
I pray a bunch, tho im lzy though, but i do manage to say grace, people think they can merit or bargain with God and his grace, but u really can't but its always good to pray.
thts just it, heaven IS great, u cant relate it to being bad, cuz it isnt bad : webster says lace or condition of complete happiness
nemore questions...
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 16, 2003, 01:14:00 PM
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 16, 2003, 01:17:00 PM
Post by: jujupinto85 on March 16, 2003, 01:19:00 PM
i agree with you to some degree and im glad that there are more open minded people on this forum..
though w/ heaven, heaven is kinda like i dunno, a good, everyones good, whether good or bad people, a "heaven" is good for them, so it cant be a "bad" place, but someplace that i completely good for the individual
plus you would be with God, i mean think about it???
Post by: praisegod on March 16, 2003, 02:31:00 PM
Please continue to read this for your eternal dwelling place (Heaven or Hell) depends on it.
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)
Jesus is the Son of God and came to this world for you and me.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (John 3:16-17)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
What do you have to "do" to be saved and go to heaven then?
Believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that his death and ressurection is what your salvation rests on.
Repent of your sins and forsake all sin.
Be baptized by full immersion.
Here is a very good web-site about salvation
http://www.aaronsbib...s/Salvation.htm
I congragulate and give credit to the author of this site for his hard work.
There is evidence for God.
1.The earth's present magnetic field energy is ~ 0.5 guass. This magnetic field energy is slowly decreasing every year. Logically, the earth's magnetic field energy was once higher. However, humans can only withstand so much magnetic field energy. For example Jupiter has a very high magnetic field energy , i think ~ 27.0 guass (dont quote me on the exact numbers). So logically the earth's magnetic field energy could have only been so high. Mathematicans and scientists have calculated this all out and have come to the conclusion that the highest magnetic field energy possible( about ~10 guass) would have been approxamately 6,000 years ago or 4,000 B.C. This is in direct correlation with the Bible which shows the earth is about 6,000 years ago. (One can calculate this by adding up the ages of all the patriarchs of the Old testament. This has been done on www.drdino.com by Kent Hovind)
2. The word universe means one phrase. That is the one phrase spoken by God to create the universe. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. (Genesis 1:3)
3. The universe is tending towards disorder. Law of entropy in physics. Logically, at one point everything was perfect. Scientists and mathematicians have figured out when it was perfect and the number they say is about 6,000 years ago -- in direct correlation with the Bible.
4. Many prophecies in the Bible have been fufilled literally. Israel becoming a nation again and using the old hebrew language.
5. There are bible codes which use els(equadistance letter sequences) to underly words behind the physical text. These include the word Yeshua, Jesus, written over and over in the old testament. I forgot the exact letter sequence, but it can be found in Grant Jeffrey's "The Signature of God"
There are much more ways to prove the existance of God - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the triune God Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Please read this
Please take this message to heart.
In the love of Christ Jesus
Post by: Mage on March 16, 2003, 02:50:00 PM
Quoting from the Bible isn't going to make people believe. I believe that as a major flaw.
That whole story about the Rich man shunning the poor man, and the poor man wanting to go back to warn the rich man to read the scriptures (after death), and then God or someone said everything they need to believe is in the scriptures...
That's not enough in my opinion to actually truly believe the existance of 'God.'
Post by: Raised on March 16, 2003, 03:02:00 PM
"praisegod", I think so far athiests and agnostics have been for the most part respectful of those who keep faith, you should also respect people's right not to believe.. no need to dig up that "salvation" material.
and are you really saying the Earth is 6000 years old?
Post by: jujupinto85 on March 16, 2003, 03:18:00 PM
????
Post by: Lizard_King on March 16, 2003, 09:10:00 PM
| QUOTE (praisegod @ Mar 16 2003, 11:31 PM) | ||||
Have you ever wondered what happens after you die? Do you fear death? Well, you don't have to because Jesus has done all the hard work for you. 2,000 years ago, he died on a cross as a perfect substitute for all the world. He took all the sins of the world on himself and sufferred all the pain. He then ressurected to life and conquered Death.
I don't know any credible physicists or astronomer (perhaps some astrologers...) who would claim that the universe was perfectly ordered 6 thousand years ago. Hell, we know of human social units older than that...
Dr Dino is a poor excuse for a scientist. He misleads people like yourself and gainpresence into thinking that religion is a scientific question. It is not. It is an ideological question, and by attempting to treat it like a scientific one you make yourself an object of ridicule. There is no way anyone with even a decent high school science education should mistake Dr Dino's arguments for anything but bad science badly performed. |
I've said this before, and I'll say it again. If the Christian God had really wanted to make clear to me an example of ultimate virtue, he would have created his son without him having knowledge he was divine or certainty of the existence of heavenly rewards. Then, had he gone on to make the exact same sacrifices with only a human's portion of faith in the hereafter, and only then, would his sacrifice be a symbol to me. Til then I know hundreds of heroes whose examples are far more inspiring, men and women who gave their lives for something they cared about without any certainty of reward.
Post by: Horizon on March 16, 2003, 10:56:00 PM
Post by: Novahux on March 16, 2003, 11:27:00 PM
There are no Miracles (good/Bad luck), just coincidences.Halleluiah my download finished 2 seconds before my modem got disconnected, I must be more important to GOD than the starving children of Africa .
Post by: BenzineX on March 17, 2003, 01:21:00 AM
Post by: jujupinto85 on March 17, 2003, 11:58:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Also what makes the Christian religions (who the majority of the people who voted religious seem to be) more true then say Hinduism wich is way older then Judaism (wich as you know the Christian religions are based apon)? |
buddy, if you nething about jews, then you would know that Judaism has been around >>FOREVER<< since the begining of time when God created Adam and EVE or watever u want to believe, they were all Jews...
Post by: praisegod on March 18, 2003, 03:01:00 PM
here is the story of the rich man and the poor man(Lazarus)
Luke 16
1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Im not forcing you to beleive anything , but I am providing you with the actual account in the Bible.
Post by: praisegod on March 18, 2003, 03:14:00 PM
I do believe the Earth is 6,000 years old. From Genesis is says that God created heaven and earth and all the animals that dwell upon it. Then on the 6th day God created Adam and Eve , NOT Adam and Steve. He did this is 6 literal days and rested on the 7th.
Some say that quoting the Bible is like quoting a fairy tale. I disagree and will show Biblical evidence. If you choose not to believe it is your own decision.
From the King James Version:
2 Peter 3:8
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. "
Thus 6 days = 6,000 years.
There are Jewish rabbis which have been predicting that Jesus' Second Coming will bring in the 7th day at the end of the 6 days. This 7th day is know as the Millenium from the last chapter of the Bible , known as Revelation to Protestants and the Apocalypse to Catholics.
This in brief is what I believe about the age of the earth.
If anyone has questions or comments on anything I have said, feel free to do so.
EDIT= closed quotes of 2 Peter 3:8
Post by: Mage on March 18, 2003, 03:19:00 PM
If I write a book and say God told me what to say in it, and in it my book it says the Earth is 9900 years old, are you going to believe me?
I bet not!
Post by: jujupinto85 on March 18, 2003, 03:33:00 PM
umm we know it as Revalation buddy not Apocalypse or no one has called that since o i dunno the first vatican council and
and just cuz u can quote scripture doesnt mean crap, if you really wanted to make some points u would try defending not quoteing, ne one can quote from the scripture, even the DEVIL did while tempting Jesus in the desert... see i didnt quote cuz hell i dont know where its from
Post by: HSDEMONZ on March 18, 2003, 04:21:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| If I write a book and say God told me what to say in it, and in it my book it says the Earth is 9900 years old, are you going to believe me? I bet not! |
This is the single biggest reason I can not put my faith in the BIBLE... if anyone today writes 300 pages.. and then says GOD TOLD ME SO.. we'd hang him by his nutz and laugh.
But.. I'm supposed to believe a book written in sections by a number of individuals.. copied and cross translated a number of times.. and believe that it is a work by something divine?
I know I haven't jumped into this thread before.. preferring to leave the RELIGIOUS topics to those that give a shit.. but your QUOTE rang true for me..
Post by: Novahux on March 18, 2003, 05:22:00 PM
Final results_______________________________________
Religious, ( Belief in a divine spirit)_________[ 27 ] [30.68%]
Agnostic, (Undecided, more data required) [ 32 ] [36.36%]
Atheist, (There is no GOD.)_______________[ 29 ] [32.95%]
_________________________________________________
The results were surprising, my guess was that it would be 60%-20%-20% in favor of the churchies. The fact that Agnostic ranked so high is a good sign for the future.
It generally takes a lot of courage to convert from Christian to Agnostic (the most common form of Agnostic), you have to shed the comfort and security of a Religion that offers answers to all the hard questions on existence and death.
Peer pressure to follow the Religious flock is enormous; the idea of Heaven & Hell is projected to most people from birth. Even as a committed Agnostic I have caved in an said to my Daughter that our pet cat went to Heaven, as telling I'm not sure if there is a heaven would just make me sound callous or confuse her.
My final point is that IF there really is a GOD, he/she would have a far greater respect for Agnostics, than the other TWO as evolution seems to heading in the direction of Mental (knowledge) rather than physical. The ability of an Agnostic to shed previous accepted facts and prejudice in favor of accepting new discoveries and evidence makes us more hungry for knowledge and to make decisions based of current evidence without being overly influenced by our ancestors.
cheers all
Post by: Novahux on March 18, 2003, 05:35:00 PM
I became Agnostic long before I even knew the word "Agnostic", I stumbled across the term "Agnostic" while doing some family tree research for my grandmother. As best as we can figure a first cousin of MY great grand(x5)father. Was instrumental in the coining of the phrase.
See Thomas Henry Huxley, if your interested. in the origins of the term.
Post by: johnnobts on March 18, 2003, 05:45:00 PM
Post by: Lbtg43 on March 18, 2003, 05:48:00 PM
| QUOTE (johnnobts @ Mar 18 2003, 09:45 PM) |
| Agnosticism is really just Atheism Light. People gotta make a commitment one way or the other... |
well now that yo say that...
doesnt agnostic = atheist....
not having enough information either way would mean you do not have fatih in god and all that otehr religous bs... aka being atheist
Post by: Novahux on March 18, 2003, 05:59:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Agnosticism is really just Atheism Light. People gotta make a commitment one way or the other... |
Stupid statement!!!
That's the reason why pepole scoff at athiests,
If someone give you a Can of food with the label removed, with your argument then we
| QUOTE |
| gotta make a commitment one way or the other |
Life is just like a labelless can, and we are no where near finding a can opener, and proberly never will.
So with your argument, your saying that is we can't simply say we don't know whats in the can ?
Post by: Rollo on March 18, 2003, 06:40:00 PM
I am american and i believe in God.
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 18, 2003, 08:58:00 PM
)So there is a God we can easily prove this as i have. granted people are stubborn in their ignorance and won't change. As far as other Gods and other christian religions this thread could easily last yrs.
Hinduism was not the first religion. Whatever the religion of Sumer was...
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 18, 2003, 09:07:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mage @ Mar 19 2003, 06:03 AM) | ||
If it was sooooo easy to prove, everyone would believe. However you cannot prove it. |
I believe mage you fall in this category
| QUOTE |
| granted people are stubborn in their ignorance and won't change. |
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 18, 2003, 09:12:00 PM
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 18, 2003, 09:21:00 PM
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 18, 2003, 09:30:00 PM
later mage!
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 18, 2003, 09:33:00 PM
Post by: Lizard_King on March 18, 2003, 11:16:00 PM
| QUOTE (Rebel-Soul @ Mar 19 2003, 05:58 AM) |
| The big bang is f'in bull shit. (No offense) If you think about it how can it be true! I explained in my post. There has to be matter to beget matter. However even then it is not likely. What was the source of the bang. Where was the source from. How can something come from nothing. That is why we beleive in a superior being beyond time and space capable of making something out of nothing. Jesus the Christ was just the same as you and me besides one thing his Divine nature. He learned and grew just like us. He was not all knowing in the sense we think of it yes he was God but he was man he had to be bound to its limits. We too are bounds to matter. the sqwishy mass in our cranium is not our intellect. for we are capable of knowing everything. however...age and matter prevent us from doing so. The soul is the imortal spirit inside our manly nature. this is why there is an after life because if something is immortal it cannot die thus there must be a place for them. it could be other dimensions. (quite no linier if you ask me... )So there is a God we can easily prove this as i have. granted people are stubborn in their ignorance and won't change. As far as other Gods and other christian religions this thread could easily last yrs. Hinduism was not the first religion. Whatever the religion of Sumer was... |
If ignorance were grounds for believing in supernatural phenomena, then we might as well have stuck with tribal fetishism and sacrificing virgins to volcanos to appease the fire gods. Simply because we haven't figured out what the origins of the universe are, or because they are simply beyond the reach of our scientific understanding, does not make them automatically divine in source.
Example: the universe is run by invisible monkeys that we are unable to perceive, but you see I wrote this whole book about how they talk to me so I know they're there. That is as scientifically valid as your Christian god.
For the 101st time, Creationism, no matter how moderate, is an ideological argument based on faith, and only faith. There are no scientific grounds for belief in any particular higher power, nor any to conclusively disprove its existence.
Post by: Potenza on March 19, 2003, 01:46:00 AM
| QUOTE (Horizon @ Mar 14 2003, 11:15 PM) |
| LOL! That's my God for ya. God: "You don't believe...TO THE BOWELS OF BLOODY HELL WIT YA!" What a nice guy. Oh well. I had a good run. |
May I remark that in the new testament there is no mention of Hell? Only of forgiveness?
To all you people who havn't made their minds up:
Descartes (French Philosopher (And I don't know if he would or would not support the war on Iraq)) once said it is mathematically the safest bet to believe in God Because:
1. If you don't believe in God (Assuming that God, Allah, Jahwe are all different words that point to the same essence), and he/she/it does exist, you could be in a lot of trouble.
2. If you do believe in God, and he/she/it does not exist, it doesn't matter anyway, as there is no setback to believing.
I just wish that all religions would realise the core of the matter: Love, compassion, care. And that stupid religious leaders would stop issuing strange orders. And that goes for muslims, christians, jews and all others.
I'm "catholic" my self, but that does not mean I agree to everything the Pope says.
It's like a teacher of mine once said, God equals love, God is the incarnation of love. To believe in God is to believe in Love.
So if you believe in love, you believe in what God really stands for and for him (should he exist) that would count as believing in what he stands for / is.
Never forget: the bible was written by people in a certain time to translate their feelings and experiences.
Just my 2 cents
Final Note: There is nothing wrong with believing / religion. There is just something wrong with people who abuse religion to their own benefit. (e.g. acquiring more power over others). Crusades and inquisition for example.
Post by: Novahux on March 19, 2003, 02:04:00 AM
First the Lord made man in the Garden of Eden.
> > > > > Then he said to himself, "There's something he's needin' ".
> > > > > After casting about for a suitable pearl, He kept messing around and
> > > > > created a girl.
> > > > >
> > > > > Two beautiful legs, so long and so slender,
> > > > > Round, slim, and firm, and ever so tender.
> > > > > Two lovely hips to increase his desire,
> > > > > And rounded and firm to bring out the fire.
> > > > > Two lovely breasts, so full and so proud,
> > > > > Commanding his eyes, as he whispers aloud.
> > > > > Two lovely arms, just aching to bless you,
> > > > > And two loving hands, to soothe and caress you.
> > > > > Soft, cascading hair hung down over her shoulder,
> > > > > And two dreamy eyes, just to make him grow bolder. Twas made
> > > > > for a man, just to make his heart sing. Then he added a mouth.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ruined the whole fucking thing.
Post by: Potenza on March 19, 2003, 02:06:00 AM
Post by: jujupinto85 on March 19, 2003, 04:41:00 AM
| QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Mar 18 2003, 08:17 PM) | ||
You're wrong. King Henry VIII was the man who ordered the separation from the Catholic Church after the pope refused to sanction his divorce. King James I was originally King James VI of Scotland, and a Catholic to boot. He did a passable imitation of conversion to Church of England upon his coronation, but as was shown by the troubles his son experienced as someone perceived as a Catholic trying to take over England with popery, it's pretty obvious it was a sham. James I was extremely interested in his faith, and the King James version is widely recognized to be the most excellent English language version of the bible, despite its flaws. |
good job lizard king you have been doing your research, thanks for clearing that up for me, my history teacher would have killed me for the statement i made, so inaccurtate LOL
well king jams bible vs the Vulgate, Septugint, and the ohter one (those are just translations, Vulgate = latin, septugint = Greek, all from the aramachic language, ITHINK?? maybe hebrew, lol im not really sure now its been a year from these classes)
| QUOTE |
| The Protestant Bible is the True Bible. How can it be, when they cut out seven books from the Old Testament: Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus (Ecclesiastes), Baruch, and the two books of Machabees, as well as various sections of other Books. Luther removed these books because they did not suit his new doctrines. Luther is guilty of using the principle of private judgement - of picking and choosing religious doctrines. Whenever any book taught a doctrine that was contrary to his own, he threw that book out. He and others also mutilated some of the books that were left (see number 6). Many Protestant preachers and Bishops have written volumes pointing out the errors in the King James Version and the Revised Version. In a convention of ministers some years ago in St. Louis, MO., a Presbyterian minister urged the necessity of a new translation of the Protestant Bible because there were no less than 30,000 errors in it. |
so there are big mistakes, not just simple translation mistakes in these protesent bibles, lizard king again thanks for correcting me
Post by: Potenza on March 19, 2003, 07:43:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| hate to keep doing this, but the French mathematician you are thinking of is Blaise Pascal, not Descartes. Descartes came up with the first wholly reason based "proof" of God's existence (unfortunately it is logically flawed, but that's another story), as well as some really irritating treatises on human perception and such. |
Sorry, my mistake. And yes Descartes 2 ways of prooving that God exist where not very "stable".
| QUOTE |
| Any higher power that requires servitude and submission in addition to that is demanding a compromise of my personal ethics |
Question is: is this what God wants you to do? IMO NO. Love others like you love yourself.
| QUOTE |
| In any case, Pascal's wager, while certainly logically valid for those that prioritize hedging their bets, misses the importance of principle to many atheists. |
But it is still the best bet!
| QUOTE |
| However, I do think that establishing an easy to follow, basically useful and good pattern of morals is Christianity's greatest contribution to the western world. |
True. But also probably the most abused for personal glory.
| QUOTE |
| but the fact remains that being a dissident in Catholic Spain was exponentially more safe than being a Catholic in any of the countries experiencing the violent Reformation, or for that matter being anyone who was different in Protestant held areas |
True. I didn't say crusades / inquisition where any better than what other people did. Being a Catholic, I was just trying to show that some self criticism isn't a bad thing.
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 19, 2003, 11:35:00 AM
Post by: Lbtg43 on March 19, 2003, 11:36:00 AM
| QUOTE (Novahux @ Mar 19 2003, 06:04 AM) |
| This is all too serious now, its about time someone moved it to the comedy section. First the Lord made man in the Garden of Eden. > > > > > Then he said to himself, "There's something he's needin' ". > > > > > After casting about for a suitable pearl, He kept messing around and > > > > > created a girl. > > > > > > > > > > Two beautiful legs, so long and so slender, > > > > > Round, slim, and firm, and ever so tender. > > > > > Two lovely hips to increase his desire, > > > > > And rounded and firm to bring out the fire. > > > > > Two lovely breasts, so full and so proud, > > > > > Commanding his eyes, as he whispers aloud. > > > > > Two lovely arms, just aching to bless you, > > > > > And two loving hands, to soothe and caress you. > > > > > Soft, cascading hair hung down over her shoulder, > > > > > And two dreamy eyes, just to make him grow bolder. Twas made > > > > > for a man, just to make his heart sing. Then he added a mouth. > > > > > > > > > > Ruined the whole fucking thing. |
Post by: Rebel-Soul on March 19, 2003, 11:43:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| If ignorance were grounds for believing in supernatural phenomena, then we might as well have stuck with tribal fetishism and sacrificing virgins to volcanos to appease the fire gods. Simply because we haven't figured out what the origins of the universe are, or because they are simply beyond the reach of our scientific understanding, does not make them automatically divine in source. Example: the universe is run by invisible monkeys that we are unable to perceive, but you see I wrote this whole book about how they talk to me so I know they're there. That is as scientifically valid as your Christian god. For the 101st time, Creationism, no matter how moderate, is an ideological argument based on faith, and only faith. There are no scientific grounds for belief in any particular higher power, nor any to conclusively disprove its existence. |
You miss the point entirely... By this i do not mean that God exsists. Christians beleive God exsists by this. but what it really is is a proof that something supernatural or divine. This is how religions spang about. People knew there must be something greater to some a mayan god or gods to you flying invisible monkeys.
This thread is one of the prime examples of primitive man being more intellegent than modern man.
Post by: Potenza on March 19, 2003, 01:29:00 PM
| QUOTE (praisegod @ Mar 19 2003, 07:27 PM) |
| I would like to point out that in the New Testament, Hell IS mentioned: |
I believe in a forgiving God, a good God.
I do not believe in the punisher.
If you believe God is good, how can good mean eternally punishing somebody.
The god in the new testament is a forgiving god.
Post by: ocool19 on March 19, 2003, 02:24:00 PM
and those religiose people plz keep ur Religion for urself and dont try to PULL People in because i believe everyone has to choose on there own....and theory about "if my parents is that religion" u should be too is fukkking bullcrap....thats all i had to say had to go through 9 page hahah....intresting topic and STOP Pasting that VERSES FROM BIBLE IT WONT HELP TO PROVE ANYTHING!!!
laters
Post by: Fuzzy on March 19, 2003, 02:32:00 PM
Post by: Fuzzy on March 19, 2003, 02:36:00 PM
| QUOTE (gainpresence @ Mar 19 2003, 06:33 PM) | ||
You apparently don't know much... Everyone knows that Moses was real, so was Jesus... No one thinks that heaven is in the clouds, God created the universe AFTER he created heaven. |
sorry been outta hebrew school for a few years and i never was very religious (but i mean how do we know moses saw god, we dont! and how do we know jesus was resurrected, we DONT!)
Post by: Lizard_King on March 19, 2003, 04:36:00 PM
| QUOTE (Rebel-Soul @ Mar 19 2003, 08:35 PM) |
| OMG you guys still got it wrong! Des Cartes did not believe in a god! he was an athiest so to speak. Cogito ergo sum. Please translate and tell me what you think. |
Cogito ergo sum: I think, therefore I am.
Interestingly enough, that is part and parcel of one of Descartes' proofs of God. He not only wasn't an atheist, but based his entire epistemology (system of thought) around the belief that he had established the existence of God beyond a doubt using only reason rather than empirical arguments. He was a devout Christian and Catholic, and much of his work was based around the Papal bull saying that God's existence could be rationally proved...he was devoted to figuring out how.
The bulk of his seminal Meditations on First Philosophy is devoted to two massive proofs of God on a rational basis, of which "Cogito Ergo Sum" is a part. If you really want me to explain them I will...but for now suffice it to say that not only are you wrong about Descartes, you are doubly wrong for making a pretense of familiarity with his work.
In fact, the number of 17th century Enlightenment thinkers that were actual atheists were few in number...offhand, I can only think of Diderot...Keep in mind that before Darwin there were few reasonable grounds for being an atheist, although Diderot did a fascinating purely rational dissection remarkably close to what we know of modern physics and atomic structures. The rest were devout Christians, with the occasional Deist.
Post by: Lizard_King on March 19, 2003, 05:00:00 PM
| QUOTE (praisegod @ Mar 19 2003, 08:58 PM) |
| have read your articles. In "The Mammoth lie" , if you assume that all the samples are different mammoths you may say, "ha the creationists are wrong". I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say they were wrong in this particlular instance. However, Carbon dating in general is flawed. Please read: In this quote , it does not use the articles that you dismiss(mammoth, volcano, and the one about the age of quotes). The CEM article above disproves carbon dating by other means. For the Volcano article I will assume the same as the Mammoth. That creationists may have been wrong in this particular instance. However for the last article, there is no creationist error. Just because the creationists' quotes are old doesn't mean they are wrong. Einstein's theory of relativity E=mc^2 was formulated in the early 1900's. That doesnt mean that ,"hey, since that theory is old , its wrong!" The last article of yours has little or no validity. If I appear to be hostile, I am sorry. I love you all and will let you come to your own convictions. |
The reason I cited the mammoth article was to give you a specific example of the sort of methodology creationists use to actively deceive their followers. It is not, in fact, an honest mistake; it is done purposefully.
| QUOTE |
| here is an explanation from : http://www.creatione.../se_carbon.html Subject: Carbon Dating A less-common form of the carbon atom, carbon-14, is used today by scientists as a method to date once-living organisms. Many people believe that carbon dating disproves the Biblical time scale of history. However, because of the difficulties with current C14 dating techniques, the dates produced have been shown to be faulty. Cabon-14 is produced in the upper atmosphere by action of cosmic rays. One the C 14 has been formed, by converting nitrogen-14 into carbon-14, it behaves like ordinary carbon-12, combining with oxygen to give carbon dioxide, and freely cycling through the cells of all plants and animals. Carbon-14 is used for a dating material because once it has been formed, C14 begins to decay radioactively back to nitrogen-14, at a rate of change that can be measured. As soon as an organism dies, the C14 atoms which decay are no longer replaced by new ones through respiration. Consequently, the ratio of C14 to C12 in that once-living organism decreases as time goes on. The problem with the carbon dating method isscientists can not be sure of what the C14/C12 ratio was when the organism died. Carbon dating assumes that the ratio has remained constant; however, events, such as the industrial revolution, are known to have raised C12 levels. Other possible factors, such as the presence of a water canopy, would have lowered the amount of C14 in the pre-Flood world. Because pre-Flood specimens had so little carbon-14 in them, some might appear to have been decaying for tens of thousands of years. Also, the decay of the earths magnetic field would have direct effects on C14 level, again, giving artificially old ages the farther you go back in time. Finally, carbon dating has been shown untrustworthy with some present day aquatic specimens that were concluded to be thousands of years old. For example, the shells of living snails were carbon dated and showed that the snails had died 27,000 years ago. Other specimens have been carbon dated more than once, each time producing a different date varying by thousands of years. In overview, we see that the radiocarbon dating method is certainly no embarrassment to the Biblical creationist who believes in a young earth. In fact, when all data, such as the decay of the magnetic field and the canopy, is taken into accord, carbon dating seems to support a young earth. CEM Staff |
Not only are there no experimentational references, or even self-references, but also:
1. There is absolutely no evidence for the earth's magnetic field decaying at a constant rate. In fact, this wholly spurious claim that continues to be used by Creationists despite its obvious flaws has been extensively debunked.
2. I have no idea what "the canopy" means. Without citation it is meaningless.
3. This pretty much sums up how I feel about this quotes (fromhere):
| QUOTE |
| The creationist fascination with spitting out long lines of out-dated and out-of-context quotes is directly tied with their literalistic Biblical outlook. Since in their interminable arguments with each other over religious doctrines and Biblical interpretations, their usual method of argument is to quote Bible verses at each other, they apparently think that it is a valid scientific argument to quote this or that person as saying this or that, and therefore somehow in this manner invalidate the data and evidence in favor of the evolution of life. The whole strategy is one of "argument from authority"----"X must be true because Mr Y says its true". While this method might (or might not) make sense within the context of fundamentalist arguments over which particular interpretation of this or that Bible verse is authoritative, it has no use in science, which depends solely on data and evidence, not on the say-so of this or that prominent scientist. Thus scientists, quite apart from all the distortions and inaccuracies, reject all of the creationists "quotes" as irrelevant, no doubt leaving the fundamentalists completely baffled as to why nobody seems to be impressed by all their quotations from authorities. |
I think it encapsulates nicely what I have been trying to get across for numerous posts: your argument is ideological and faith based, and has nothing to do with science. That is fine when it comes to questions no amount of scientific theories will ever likely be able to address due to their very nature, such as "*why* are we here" but is utterly useless when we are talking about *how* we got here.
| QUOTE |
| However for the last article, there is no creationist error. Just because the creationists' quotes are old doesn't mean they are wrong. Einstein's theory of relativity E=mc^2 was formulated in the early 1900's. That doesnt mean that ,"hey, since that theory is old , its wrong!" The last article of yours has little or no validity. |
That is only half-true. Old scientific statements can be useful, if and ONLY if they have not since been disproved or modified by later findings. If you don't think it's significant that Creationists overwhelmingly use dated information that has since been replaced by accurate data that says something completely different from what they say, and do so on purpose (you have to go out of your way to find dated science if you are looking through scientific journals...you will usually be referred to the most recent work first), then you need to revise your understanding of scientific method.
| QUOTE |
| If I appear to be hostile, I am sorry. I love you all and will let you come to your own convictions. |
You don't have to apologize, and you are a country mile from being rude. I am not trying to attack your system of beliefs, just trying to make clear that they have *nothing* to do with science.