Post by: XPort on May 16, 2003, 09:32:00 AM
and all the rude/damning/inconsiderate/untrue things that have been written about me.
First and foremost - let's gain some true perspective on everything. Think about what
all of this truly means. By "all of this" I'm referring to the following : XBox, emulation,
GPL, XDK, BIOS files, source code, etc. There are people that would argue that some
of those topics ( or certain facets of those topics ) are very important, but one must
remember that it's all relative. What is important to one person is not necessarily
important to another. Please note - I am not saying that when two people have
differing priorities that it is OK for one of them to totally disregard the other.
For example, let's say you read about a child in a third-world country that just died
from starvation. It's sad, but since it's one of those depressing tidbits that
we constantly hear, it's usually dismissed almost immediately. Now imagine that
you are the parent of that dead child. Suddenly things are quite different.
If the above analogy seems spurious to you, then I'll use the specifics from my
real life as it pertains to this GPL issue. Here's a short list of the things
that are important to me:
- Making sure my three kids are fed, educated, healthy, and happy
- Spending time with my wife to constantly remind her that she's important to me
- Ensuring my 82-year-old father takes his correct medication at the correct
time and does not aimlessly wander the streets at night
- Keeping track of the amount of audio/visual stimulation my kids receive
- Trying to diplomatically/unobtrusively steer my oldest away from a girl
he's been dating whom I am convinced is bad-news
- Being there for a friend of mine going through a messy divorce right now
- Trying not to be too preoccupied with my own mortality ever since my best
friend for over 30 years died last June of a heart attack
- Then, of course, there's my real job
Now, please tell me where this GPL issue should fit into my list of priorities.
While I ported, I never gave any thought to the GPL and it has never come up before now.
I have received no complaints from any authors of the emulators I've ported to the XBox
except for PCSX. As soon as I discovered that someone felt wronged by the situation,
however, I took steps to make things right. I spoke with Pete and with
Linuzappz to find out what exactly they would like me to do in order to make amends,
and then I did it. That apparently was not enough for some people. Suddenly there are
intense discussions about how I violated the GPL and that I'm some kind of horrible
person who hides in the shadows and hoards source code. I try to excuse most
of this and chalk it up to the ignorance of youth. However, I cannot let this
issue progress any further due to the sheer amount of FUD and crazy remarks that
has been spread.
Some may ask, "Why haven't you released the source code before now?" Firstly,
as I said before I never gave things like the GPL any thought. Furthermore,
when I first started porting, I had no place to deposit things like source code.
The people distributing the binaries were only interested in the binaries. They
didn't care about the source code, and no one was asking for it. Later, after I
had done a number of ports, I finally got a web page together. However, the
web page was not suitable for having a bunch of downloadable files on there. For
one thing, if the bandwidth exceeded a certain amount, it would be noticed and
the owner of the domain would decide it's time to put popup ads on it. If that
happened, I would not want to stay there anymore. Ever since this PCSX ordeal started,
the xport.xb-power.com webpage has been up and down. That was with only three
relatively small source packages. The final reason I never bothered to release
source is because of the work involved. The source for various porting projects
resides on three different computers and I've made structural changes to common
files along the way which would require going back, merging the appropriate files,
recompiling, and making sure it all still works as it should. It's not a small task,
and it's tedious work. So excuse me very much for not being motivated to do grunt
work on what is supposed to be a hobby. Why didn't I release *all* the source code
to the PCSX port when this issue arose? I was using code that I wrote while working
for a real company. Since I wrote it for the company, it technically belongs
to them. If I distributed the source without rewriting those sections, I'd be in
*real* legal trouble if it ever got back to the company for which I used to work.
This is also why it has taken several days to get everything organized.
On another topic, I believe I recall that someone called me something along the lines of a
"one-man warez group" who ports GPL software for some kind of ego-trip. This is
absolutely inexcusable. For those who are actually interested in knowing exactly *why*
I have done these XBox ports, here it is:
- It's a pleasant distraction (programming for fun instead of for work)
- It makes my kids happy
- I get to pretend I'm Santa Claus whenever I make something available to the public
Some people may find that last one to be sappy or lacking in credibility, but
the truth of the matter is that I have a soft spot for kids. Let's face it -
the vast majority of the people using these XBox emulators are kids 18 and under.
I like the idea that I'm spreading a little happiness to children.
Oh, there's also the benefit of bragging to my middle-aged friends that "eye 4m
soop3r-ub3r 1ee7 wid 4ll da r0mz j00 n33d!!!!" Please. Most of my friends
don't know about this hobby of mine and they really would not care about it if they
did. The only personal validation I want or need from teenage boys is that which comes
from my own teenage son.
Someone also accused me of passing these ports off as "mine." Rubbish. I have
never said or written anything to that effect. I have never taken credit for
anything other than the porting work I've done. I have never accepted any
form of compensation or remuneration for any port, nor would I ever simply because
most of the work belongs to someone else.
Finally, there is the issue of courtesy and manners. No one likes to be told
what to do. It does not matter if what you want done is "the right thing to do"
or not. There are much better ways to go about getting what you want than saying
things like "you have to release the source code now!" or "I sure hope the other authors
come after you - in fact I'm going to write them an email!" There's an old saying
that rings true in this case: "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." Again,
this probably has a lot to do with the impetuousness of youth and I try to let it
slide. These people need to realize, however, that this is not the way to go
through life. The common knee-jerk reaction to having demands thrown in one's face
is to immediately go on the defensive. If I *were* the kind of person that people
have been saying I am, then no one would have ever received the source code after
comments like that. I would have simply decided, "you can't tell *me* what to do."
I still have very valid reservations about releasing the source code simply because
I am reinforcing bad behavior. Behavior : bitch, moan, threaten in order to get
source code released. Reward : source code is released. Therefore, the behavior
continues. This possibility still bothers me a great deal because I suspect
that is how it will be interpreted by many people. I cannot be a parent to
everyone, however.
So there it is. For those that are interested, the source code for everything
is now on the #xbins FTP server. (XBOX/apps/emulators/xport_src) Everything
you need to compile the XBEs is included there. Please do not ask for
"technical support" wrt compiling. There is probably some tweaking that you'll need
to do in order to compile some of them, but anyone who is somewhat competent
at programming should not have any problems with it. No, I have not stopped
working on these ports. I just wanted to get one more big project done (PSX).
Afterwards, I will go back and start addressing outstanding issues with the others.
I truly hope that all the naysayers have learned something about how not to judge
someone's character from this. I think a lot of the people in these forums could be much
nicer to others. (They could also be much more patient.)
This post has been edited by XPort: May 16 2003, 04:42 PM
Post by: b11051973 on May 16, 2003, 09:44:00 AM
Post by: BigUglyFool on May 16, 2003, 09:47:00 AM
I think it's sad that things grew to the point that you felt necessary to respond.
People (kids more particularly) tend to make things into far more than they really are, and this is a great example. While I feel that it is your obligation to post your source changes if the license requires it, I never felt like you should've been slandered or otherwise frowned upon over this.
Nice writeup - from now on, try to put less thought / emotion into the negatives on these threads and appreciate that people like myself are THRILLED that you're around and greatly advancing the Xbox scene.
In truth, anyone who runs one of your ported efforts owes you a debt of gratitude.
BUF
This post has been edited by BigUglyFool: May 16 2003, 04:47 PM
Post by: MGSnake19 on May 16, 2003, 09:15:00 AM
, i dont know about this comlains but i know one thing for sure KEEP up the good work | QUOTE |
| i hope to hear from you soon ( PSX EMULATOR UPDATE) |
Post by: alx5962 on May 16, 2003, 09:51:00 AM
I just wanted to thank you for your work, you made your kids happy, and thousands others people too.
I'm so sad that some stupid people reacted so badly, I know it's not easy to not care about this but please just consider them as just a very small group, the xbox community and the emulation one are usually very grateful to emu coders/porters.
So
Xport, and thank you for your wonderful ports.Alx-member of emulation community since 1997
Post by: Shadowland on May 16, 2003, 09:52:00 AM
Many thanks to you sir
Post by: Jse on May 16, 2003, 10:04:00 AM
Post by: boo_se on May 16, 2003, 10:07:00 AM
I hope releasing the source made pete and all the original authers happy too so you might get help with hw/accel pluins in the future.
Post by: Beelzebud on May 16, 2003, 10:10:00 AM
I find it lame that some outside people to the Xbox scene have basically made it their part-time hobby to try to slander this guy so bad, without ever hearing his side of things. Shame on them... Is the Xbox scene perfect? No. But neither are the vocal minority around here lately that are on their high horse.
As a personal note to Xport: I thank you ver much for your hard work. I am also very happy that you have not turned your back on the scene. And your Santa Claus analogy isn't too far off base. My nephews about crapped their pants when they saw Sonic The Hedgehog on my Xbox.
Post by: XmarksTheSpizot on May 16, 2003, 10:18:00 AM
ONE!
Post by: TymeRogue on May 16, 2003, 09:48:00 AM
Post by: BenJeremy on May 16, 2003, 10:30:00 AM
Taking notice of a situation, and expressing an opnion on it it one thing.... going on the warpath for some 'assumed' wrongs percieved as being done to another party is quite another... attacking XPort is one of the lamest things I can think of... shame on you few, unthinking, reactionary zealots with nothing better to do with your time then attempt to speak for the PCS emu authors and PRESUME to know more about the situation than you do.
Thank God XPort has not done what others have done under similar misguided pressure from morons who couldn't program "Hello World" if their lives depended on it... taken his ball and gone home.
Don't let this distract you, either, XPort, move forward and keep up the great work, we all appreciate it (My Son LOVES the fact that he can play his PSX games again, since his Mom buried the system in the attic a while back).
That's my 2 cents worth...
Post by: Lowen Na on May 16, 2003, 10:33:00 AM
Don't let these wanks get to you.
Your work is apreciatied, and we hope that you continue it.
Post by: Lowen Na on May 16, 2003, 10:35:00 AM
| QUOTE (BenJeremy @ May 16 2003, 06:54 PM) |
| from morons who couldn't program "Hello World" if their lives depended on it |
hehehe
"Hello World" kicks ass
Post by: carman on May 16, 2003, 10:40:00 AM
what ever you are doing with your source code and GPL are correct. you don't have to release the code.
GPL has many flexible versions. from what I understand, unless you are selling your product you will be required to release your source code. In your case you are still compliant with GPL which is develop PCSX for XBOX for personal use. And because you're a kind person, you have shared that binary with all of us. thank you! in fact, people copy the binary from you, but not you copy for other people.
carman
there is not enough words to say thank you, Xport!
keep up the good work.
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 16, 2003, 10:46:00 AM
Post by: rhawk79 on May 16, 2003, 11:11:00 AM
also, question, on the 13th, pscx 1.5 came out....is pcsxbox based on that?
Post by: pez on May 16, 2003, 11:16:00 AM
In particular, your explanation that what you were doing was for your kids is enough for me to be able to understand your point of view. I mean, how cool is it that you're able to write these things to bring that smile to your kids' faces?
As you already said, a nice side effect of being able to make your own kids happy is that you've also made a lot of other kids (and grown-up kids
) happy with your work.Those people who went and made the most outrageous personal attacks are simply ignorant and immature.
Post by: Enkak on May 16, 2003, 11:22:00 AM
Thats normal i think. Glad everything is a little normal and calm here lately. And dare i say, a little nicer lately in the foruns too hehe.
Good luck for your future man
Post by: XPort on May 16, 2003, 11:23:00 AM
a "but" in it. You need to learn to be more patient.
Regarding sourceforge - it requires valid contact information which I do not
wish to provide.
Post by: ryan44934 on May 16, 2003, 11:33:00 AM
I read all the post being made about you. I had no idea what the GPL was. So i actually went on the net to look it up. I read enough about it. I decided, (IMO) that if people were to bitch like they were it was redicoulous. I they *really* wanted the source that badly they could have requested and like you said, not complained. Now I'm 18, not a kid and not an adult in my opinion anyway. I have the courtesy to at least not bash people after they did something nice. I also think those who did should not be excused by age. I would like to assume that the general Xbox community is somewhat more intelligent than the average highschoolers (and college) students. They bit the hand that fed them and now that i think that all this has come out the way it did we may start to feel a ripple efect from other programmers. Im no coder. But i wouldnt want to do it for free for the complaining basterds. Just my take
--Ryan
This post has been edited by ryan44934: May 16 2003, 06:34 PM
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 16, 2003, 11:43:00 AM
Xport: You haven't provided any email contact and the discussions here were not a sign of impatience but literally a discussion on the gpl and your clear violations of it. Saying 'i'll release source in my own time' frankly isn't good enough. It's all cleared up now and I thank you for that so all can be laid to rest.
And no patronizing 'You need to be more patient'.. I could just as easily say 'You need to learn to obey legal and moral ethics with regards to others' projects'. I hope also that you have discussed the matter of packaging psx bios' in your binary release of pcsxbox with linuzappz/pete.
-CyRUS
This post has been edited by CyRUS64: May 16 2003, 06:45 PM
Post by: c-2 on May 16, 2003, 11:45:00 AM
Post by: guile on May 16, 2003, 12:00:00 PM
| QUOTE (CyRUS64 @ May 16 2003, 08:07 PM) |
| Xport: You haven't provided any email contact and the discussions here were not a sign of impatience but literally a discussion on the gpl and your clear violations of it. Saying 'i'll release source in my own time' frankly isn't good enough. It's all cleared up now and I thank you for that so all can be laid to rest. And no patronizing 'You need to be more patient'.. I could just as easily say 'You need to learn to obey legal and moral ethics with regards to others' projects'. I hope also that you have discussed the matter of packaging psx bios' in your binary release of pcsxbox with linuzappz/pete. -CyRUS |
And I thought I always had to have the "last word". Cut the guy some slack Cyruss!
g
Post by: the joker on May 16, 2003, 12:01:00 PM
I've had the pleasure to be a hangout-friend on the 'net with Xport for a while, and he's not the guy that would abuse a bit of any info. However, programmers main problem is non-programmers, or worse yet - people that think your sourcecode will give them anything to learn of, when the truth is that GPL code is usually so messed up that it's impossible to change a single #define in it.
XBOX-scene's programmers have one single reward : good feedback and the feeling of have made a difference.
Oh wait : not only do programmers program for everyone - but they even run a tight risk doing so. People hardly dare to have an XBE on their site - imagine how risky it is to develop something.
So please, NEVER *EVER* demand anything - nor complain to a programmer that programs for the xbox.... and speaking about someone in their own class like Xport, awesome programmer - great guy.. Hell, I wouldnt even tell him "dude" if he drank my cola.
Kudos Xport, Hope they didn't budge your desire to keep porting
-Team avalaunch
p.s. CyRUS64, by having an XBE (which I assume), you should also follow the laws and go turn yourself to the nearest authority. After all - you do seem eager that people follow the "rules". Frankly, I'd prefer if you never ever touched a modified xbox ever again, because it's simply not made for you. People like you make the quality of software SUCK.
Post by: Mage on May 16, 2003, 12:06:00 PM
Anyways Xport, I agree with you regarding contact informatin. Why take the risk of that 1% legal threat happening, when you can avoid it. Most people tend to forget regardless of what is said here, MS can try to take you to court, and that's where you have to dispute it. Why take such a chance? For some hobby? You've already stated, and have correct, that your family is more important.
Thanks for all the work, and now I can play Legend of Mana on the xbox.
It is seeing the scene come back that makes me want to resume my project.
Keep up all the good work!
Post by: chilin_dude on May 16, 2003, 12:11:00 PM
| QUOTE ( @ --) |
| Now that things have died down a bit, I shall give my response to this situation and all the rude/damning/inconsiderate/untrue things that have been written about me. First and foremost - let's gain some true perspective on everything. Think about what all of this truly means. By "all of this" I'm referring to the following : XBox, emulation, GPL, XDK, BIOS files, source code, etc. There are people that would argue that some of those topics ( or certain facets of those topics ) are very important, but one must remember that it's all relative. What is important to one person is not necessarily important to another. Please note - I am not saying that when two people have differing priorities that it is OK for one of them to totally disregard the other. For example, let's say you read about a child in a third-world country that just died from starvation. It's sad, but since it's one of those depressing tidbits that we constantly hear, it's usually dismissed almost immediately. Now imagine that you are the parent of that dead child. Suddenly things are quite different. If the above analogy seems spurious to you, then I'll use the spe¦86úFæ½ã SPCÓª9 |
This truely is the greatest post i have ever read on xbox-scene forums, i have never read all posts this long, however because it came from such a well known charactor in the xbox-scene i decided i should.
Upon reading it, it shows us multiple things about Xport, his life and why he does the work he does. I am gratefull for Xport speaking out like this, it puts it all into perspective, think about it. Here we are all hoping some even complaing about the psx emu not being good enough (when it is damned amazing in my opinion) but a kid in a 3rd world country couldn't even play psx games even if he was given the system.
I really do feel for you Xport and i know what a tough time you must be having with youre Dad, lets just say i have a few things in common with you there and i really understand the pain you must be going through. I also do feel for you about your recent friend.
However I agree with all the things that are inportant to you, i mean when you think abuot it the xbox isn't really that important, we could live without it, but without a family we would be nothing.
So think about this next time your asking for a update for an emu, i know that this sure as hell has opened my eyes, and you can tell this is a feeling everyone has from the other coders who have spoken supporting him.
Keep up the great work Xport and i hope that everything is OK in your life.
Post by: HeLiuM on May 16, 2003, 12:22:00 PM
| QUOTE (CyRUS64 @ May 16 2003, 08:07 PM) |
| ryan: But you wouldn't want to work on a project for several years, release source with the condition that any subsequent projects using your code release source also, only to have someone use your code without source release. Xport: You haven't provided any email contact and the discussions here were not a sign of impatience but literally a discussion on the gpl and your clear violations of it. Saying 'i'll release source in my own time' frankly isn't good enough. It's all cleared up now and I thank you for that so all can be laid to rest. And no patronizing 'You need to be more patient'.. I could just as easily say 'You need to learn to obey legal and moral ethics with regards to others' projects'. I hope also that you have discussed the matter of packaging psx bios' in your binary release of pcsxbox with linuzappz/pete. -CyRUS |
alright, ive gotta ask.
WHY THE H**L DO YOU CARE????
what could you possibly do with HIS work that would be so amazing that you need it?
i swear man
i hate leeches
the source you want is there, go port it yourself.
and about the legality, chances are the bios you most often use on that xbox of yours contain MS code. so maybe you should click the little house up there at the top of your screen, and stay far far away from this site of brooding evil
This post has been edited by HeLiuM: May 16 2003, 07:27 PM
Post by: XPort on May 16, 2003, 12:30:00 PM
I do not believe I'm being patronizing when I say that you need to be more patient. You made at least four separate posts in the last 2 days in that "GPL" thread directly relating to how I should release the source code. You also made three of the same nature in less than 24 hours from when v1 was released.
Additionally - yes I have obviously spoken with linuzappz about the BIOS issue because truly the only people who should be involved in such discussions are me, linuzappz, and Pete.
I really do not understand why you are so intent on portraying me as "the bad guy." Your last post seemed to make that motivation clear with your additional BIOS comment. It appears you are looking for more ways that you can complain about a subject that does not directly relate to you. I have been diligently working on this matter (with what little free time I have) since it all started in order to appease linuzappz and Pete. Even now, after it should be put to rest once and for all, I'm still receiving grief for it.
Post by: Large Dopant white on May 16, 2003, 12:32:00 PM
).I do believe that, if you ever get the proper hosting, that you should release sources to the ports that are under the GPL, but since no one has specifically asked you about all the other ones, it looks like it can wait.
Then again, I'm not a developer or a 'distributer', so my opinion isn't going to be held in high regards.
Post by: XPort on May 16, 2003, 12:36:00 PM
*All* the source to *all* the things I've ported are released. Everything. Not just PCSXBox.
Post by: Large Dopant white on May 16, 2003, 12:02:00 PM
| QUOTE (XPort @ May 16 2003, 09:00 PM) |
| Large dopant - I was not clear in my original posting. *All* the source to *all* the things I've ported are released. Everything. Not just PCSXBox. |
Oh, well, then, I take back that comment, as you've already done it.
Bravo to you, Xport!
Post by: nx-neon on May 16, 2003, 12:59:00 PM
THe post that was titled "Should Xport respect the GPL?" was originally titled "Does CyRUS64 Ever stop bitching??" The title was changed when the topic started to lean toward GPL discussions, mainly being CyRUS bitching and everyone else telling him to shut his trap. Honestly when i saw your post today, i was hoping he would finally stop and go back to his DC Boys, however i am shocked that he hasn't. God knows if he will ever let this die even since you have done ALL That he has asked/demanded. I find it a bit rediculous that you have to come out and defend yourself in a scene you are so respected in.
All i can say is thank you and you have my respect.
d
Post by: splat on May 16, 2003, 01:24:00 PM
-Dan
This post has been edited by splat: May 16 2003, 08:24 PM
Post by: Dr. Love on May 16, 2003, 01:36:00 PM
Some of you out there will never be grateful, will never get off your high horse and will never shut up. GPL is great, it is wonderful. Some people are right about priorities here, and some people are WRONG. To say that this guy should drop what he's doing and get this out for anyone out there to have access to is absurd. The guy said he'd do it when he had the time, and he did it. Make no mistake, the release of his code under GPL is not a life or death situation and shouldn't be treated as an incredibly high priority.
Cryus, I can respect your idealism for GPL and what you have to say. Cool. But remember that you live in reality, not ideality, and just because something should be a certain way doesn't mean it can, will or needs to be that way. Take a deep breath and be happy that it was released, and if it comes to this in the future, try to be happy if someone says they will release their code (even if it's not immediately, god forbid.)
XPort, I have the most sympathy for you. I know what it's like to work on a big project, to put it out because you think everyone will enjoy it and then start getting an amazing amount of bullshit for it. If I were you, I would pull the plug on your releases and not put out any more. You're doing it for your kids, and as long as they are happy, then it's cool. I'm aware that this is group punishment, but if I were in that position, that's what I'd do.
Anyway, I think it's important for a lot of you to remember what you're doing. There's been a lot of drama over this (a LOT of drama) and I know that there's been a lot more people watching that posting. You may be complaining about XPort, or defending him, but I am confident when I say that a lot of developers are watching what is happening. Careful what you say, you may be driving away the people that give you what you all want so badly.
I think I read that a few of you are from the DC scene and don't even have an XBOX or use anything from this scene? If so, why are you here causing trouble for the rest of us?
Personally, I think this is incredibly sad, blown out of proportion and way too idealistic for REAL life.
Post by: badmonkey on May 16, 2003, 02:21:00 PM
I gurantee, however many of them there were, they are such a small minority that it wouldn't even be worth counting their opinions.
Xport and all those others that are working hard on making the Xbox scene so cool have nothing but mad respect from me. That goes for the coders of the original programs, and the porters alike. To lose any of them because of a few rotten apples with loud waste holes would be a damn shame.
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 16, 2003, 02:22:00 PM
You've done that and I'm very greatful and pleased that you have done so.. the case is now closed - if you wanted people to stop discussing it, wait and be patient, then why not just post that you were to release all srcs in a few days. As far as i knew you weren't even reading the thread. Thx again for releasing srcs, since that has shown you are a 'good' developer.
And actually to whom stated it, I don't have a single xbe or modded xbox actually. I don't even own an xbox even. And the quality of my self-written software is probably up to standards. (http://icarus.boob.co.uk)
Good luck with your future ports xport
Edit:
badmonkey: I wasn't bitching and whining at xport. I not once disrespected him or doubted his abilities. The fact is people in the xbox scene as MANY others stated and not just me are out for the end results without thinking about other consequences - there is a serious issue with the gpl that has now been honoured. Period.
Post by: kaioshade on May 16, 2003, 02:30:00 PM
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 16, 2003, 02:35:00 PM
Post by: Mechazilla on May 16, 2003, 02:38:00 PM
Post by: guile on May 16, 2003, 02:41:00 PM
| QUOTE (XPort @ May 16 2003, 08:54 PM) |
| Additionally - yes I have obviously spoken with linuzappz about the BIOS issue because truly the only people who should be involved in such discussions are me, linuzappz, and Pete. |
Cyruss- I think that pretty much sumz it up here. I think YOU are WAY more involved in this then you should be. I'm really
starting to think this "crusade" of your's is tired and weak. Give it up already. No disrespect but I think you have lost a LOT
of credibility. You are trying to "bend" things to your advantage too often and anybody with half a brain can see it. First,
you were trying to "get people to see your point", but now it's turned into something else. I'm sorry but I think you should just give it up already. Quite frankly I'm surprised so many people have gone out of their way to entertain you with
responses. You might be a talented coder but I think you have issues.
g
Post by: Beelzebud on May 16, 2003, 02:41:00 PM
Post by: ChrisF on May 16, 2003, 02:45:00 PM
Xport, you are doing a great job and a huge service to everyone who uses your products. Your products are one of the main reasons I chose to mod my xbox. I also think you have a healthy view on life and reality. Some people are so caught up in their computers they fail to see what's really important.
If someone wanted the code. They should have just asked. If someone thought it was necessary for you to release all your codes. They should have asked for that also. So it took a week. Big deal. Who cares. Would these people rather have an emulator or some code. I'll take the emulator over the code anyday. It's not like there's a huge demand for this code. No one has ever even asked for it before. I guess the whole intellectual property thing is an issue but attacking someone over this is just rediculous.
I sincerely hope that someone utilizes the code to improve a product rather than just pontificate on some bullshit web board. It's almost like critics - if you don't work to create something and add value - don't judge the work of others so harshly.
This post has been edited by ChrisF: May 16 2003, 09:47 PM
Post by: oswald on May 16, 2003, 02:54:00 PM
Post by: Nsane77 on May 16, 2003, 02:59:00 PM
xport this stuff is great. please dont let it keep you from doing what you enjoy.
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 16, 2003, 03:17:00 PM
Post by: Mage on May 16, 2003, 02:48:00 PM
| QUOTE (CyRUS64 @ May 16 2003, 03:41 PM) |
| nsane: thx for your post. I have finished with this now since the required results have been achieved. I just wish ppl would understand its not a matter of complaining, but a matter of obeying licenses, which imo is a serious issue. Anyhow its done and dusted with now. My posts since src releases have been gratifying I believe towards xport, but I'll still get flamed whatever by end-users |
See other thread...
You care so much about GPL, yet what about the fact you know you are running illegally compiled programs, and a hacked MS bios?
Double standards, so pathetic.
Post by: falz on May 16, 2003, 03:28:00 PM
All joking aside (although I wasn't really joking), here's to hoping this issue fades away. We're all gracious that Xport chimed in with a well thought out and well spoken response to this perceived "mess". Each side has their perspective, it's been beaten to death, and there's really nothing more than can be said. Amen.
--falz
Post by: Enkak on May 16, 2003, 03:32:00 PM
In the first times, i think Cyrus64 had a good point and so on, but lately i am starting to think that he really just wants to upset Xport and any people that makes a good thing for the Xbox scene in a way to see if they stop their work.
Maybe its a jealous thing? And no, i am not saying regarding skills of programming, but regarding scenes. Yes, i love very much the dreamcast scene and console, and after i saw the consoles and systems ports on Xbox, equal or different ones that were on DC, i understand it can be a little frustrating to see them better on Xbox with "little effort" in contrast.
Or maybe its just a case of a person that is never completely sastified with anything, a case that i too, must confess, can suffer some times. In that case there is no point arguing, because the person will never change is way of being in life
Finally, as we all here see, and now you too, that the matter in case (GPL, sources etc) is resolved you really should stop complaning and once and for all give the arguing a rest. Because its all fine to say that everything is ok and etc, but you keep going and going.
So, this is resolved, and like you said, not having Xbox etc, so no need to be here more just to complain for the sake of complain and to try to piss some people off, because that only demonstrates, has someone well said, that you have issues, and issues that now are clear well beyond the GPL, sources etc matter. In that case, maybe you should take a break or really leave this place if you have no really interest in it besides trying to take it down.
I hope i not offended you and explained well what i meant. Sorry about the english.
Post by: guile on May 16, 2003, 03:35:00 PM
| QUOTE (CyRUS64 @ May 16 2003, 11:41 PM) |
| I have finished with this now since the required results have been achieved. |
Cyruss- I have heard this before. So since you are saying it (again), and Xport has given "his response", this thread should
be closed!! Don't you agree????
g
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 16, 2003, 03:56:00 PM
Case closed, gpl satisfied. Finito.
Post by: guile on May 16, 2003, 03:24:00 PM
| QUOTE (CyRUS64 @ May 17 2003, 12:20 AM) |
| Cased close, gpl satisfied. Finito. |
Amen!
g
Post by: XPort on May 16, 2003, 04:17:00 PM
being required to be made available for derivative works of GPL projects. No one
should be reprimanded for such a position. My point, however, is that if people
would like something to be done, the wisest avenue to take is to ask rather than
demand. If the authors themselves had demanded (which they didn't - they asked)
that would be understandable because it strikes close to home for them. A kind word
and a smile works wonders in the art of "getting people to go your way."
I would also like to address the issue of "real coders", etc. I'm just a man - I
never claimed to be more nor do I have any delusions that what I'm doing is
anything really special. Truth be told, these porting projects are not difficult
at all and I'm sure lots of people could do it if they were so inclined. One
reason why I find porting enjoyable is because it's "candy programming" where I don't
have to invest the brainpower I normally must exert in my real job. I should mention,
however, that the procedure is not as simple as just grabbing some source and slapping
on an XBox UI. There are often many sticking points (even on DirectX projects like
Stepmania) that must be addressed to get things working on the XBox. For example,
I had to completely rewrite all the sound routines in Stepmania because it uses an
external closed-source library for all of its sound output. So I guess what I'm
trying to say is that I don't deserve deification but XBox porting projects
should also not be trivialized.
Oh, and no I'm not about to say "that's it - goodbye." That's silly. Things will
be slowing down, but not stopping.
Post by: Enkak on May 16, 2003, 04:28:00 PM
Post by: mr jones on May 16, 2003, 03:54:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't deserve deification but XBox porting projects should also not be trivialized. |
Wait, does that mean you want me to stop sacrificing a goat every week to you? Can I at least keep up the incense-laden shrine? It makes the house smell nice.
Post by: guile on May 16, 2003, 04:31:00 PM
| QUOTE (XPort @ May 17 2003, 12:41 AM) |
| I appreciate the words of thanks from everyone. One other thing that I may not have made clear is that I do not (and did not) have a problem with people asking for the source to be released. (Regardless if such a request comes from the authors or from someone else.) I agree with Cyrus' and everyone else's interpretation of the GPL insofar as source being required to be made available for derivative works of GPL projects. No one should be reprimanded for such a position. My point, however, is that if people would like something to be done, the wisest avenue to take is to ask rather than demand. If the authors themselves had demanded (which they didn't - they asked) that would be understandable because it strikes close to home for them. A kind word and a smile works wonders in the art of "getting people to go your way." I would also like to address the issue of "real coders", etc. I'm just a man - I never claimed to be more nor do I have any delusions that what I'm doing is anything really special. Truth be told, these porting projects are not difficult at all and I'm sure lots of people could do it if they were so inclined. One reason why I find porting enjoyable is because it's "candy programming" where I don't have to invest the brainpower I normally must exert in my real job. I should mention, however, that the procedure is not as simple as just grabbing some source and slapping on an XBox UI. There are often many sticking points (even on DirectX projects like Stepmania) that must be addressed to get things working on the XBox. For example, I had to completely rewrite all the sound routines in Stepmania because it uses an external closed-source library for all of its sound output. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't deserve deification but XBox porting projects should also not be trivialized. Oh, and no I'm not about to say "that's it - goodbye." That's silly. Things will be slowing down, but not stopping. |
Xport- I couldn't say I'd blame ya if you decided to stop porting based on the flack associated with the Pcsx port. You were an absolute gentlemen about it and I applaud you for that. You didn't have to do what you did, but you did it. I too know how it is to be bogged down with life (wife, 3 kids, etc), so I can understand where your coming from. You already know how I feel about the emulator's you port (I LOVE THEM) but life won't stop without them for me or anybody else. I know I don't have to tell you not to take that the wrong way, because I know you understand. Thanks for everything you have given to me and the scene. Hope everything in your life turns out for the best.
g
Post by: mr jones on May 16, 2003, 04:36:00 PM
(believe me, he does. You wouldn't believe what he has to go through to keep that secret from his wife n' kids...
)Peace...
Post by: guile on May 16, 2003, 04:45:00 PM
| QUOTE (mr jones @ May 17 2003, 01:00 AM) |
| I'll make sure that Guile stops sacrificing his farm animals too. (believe me, he does. You wouldn't believe what he has to go through to keep that secret from his wife n' kids... )Peace... |
Gotta love Mr. Jones' tasty brand of humor:)
g
Post by: Mars10 on May 16, 2003, 04:54:00 PM
Post by: ScOrPiOn-X on May 16, 2003, 06:17:00 PM
I don't know you personally but I am a good judge of character and I for one respect you as a person and as a coder. All your ports are amazing and makes me wish that I started programming when I had the chance back in my younger years. Yes, I am old and a gamer and always will be a gamer and a kid at heart.
Don't let all of this put you down, I do feel for you and know what your going through at this moment. Just remember that there is only a minority that bitched about this.
Keep up the good work
GreetZ
PD: I was about to give my opinion to CyRRUS64 about this remark (I have no support for the xdk usage but I understand they have no alternative but to use it for now. (Fyi, I dont have a modded xbox or xdk or any xbes)), but I better not, don't want to srtar another war. Enough said.
Post by: erexx on May 16, 2003, 06:58:00 PM
You candor, honesty and integrity should receive the highest accolades.
Without your dedication to this hobby
There would be an immense black hole on the whole scene.
Your work is highly appreciated by some of the youngest and oldest members of my family.
No deification intended.
Just a firm handshake and a thank you.
Post by: farmerfred on May 16, 2003, 08:33:00 PM
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 16, 2003, 09:49:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| yes they are stupid but they cant help it, just ignore them and as for cyrus he can just DIE. |
Come on, I think those sorts of comments are unnecessary and highly inappropriate. xport listens to these people because he does realise he had to honour the gpl, being a great person as he clearly is.
Post by: headhntrthx on May 16, 2003, 10:17:00 PM
Post by: Mechazilla on May 16, 2003, 10:36:00 PM
Post by: spaceboy on May 16, 2003, 10:57:00 PM
Xport your life and those around are more important than the x-emu scene. Your life and those around you are way more important than the bitches (cyruss being a very good example) on this site...actually they dont even equate!
What you do for us is great....and I think its about time many of these guys need to understand that what you do is not the be all and end all of your life. Frankly many of them NEED to get a life.
Thanks again for everything and I await patiently for what you come up with next!
All the best m8.
Post by: spaceboy on May 16, 2003, 10:57:00 PM
Xport your life and those around are more important than the x-emu scene. Your life and those around you are way more important than the bitches (cyruss being a very good example) on this site...actually they dont even equate!
What you do for us is great....and I think its about time many of these guys need to understand that what you do is not the be all and end all of your life. Frankly many of them NEED to get a life.
Thanks again for everything and I await patiently for what you come up with next!
All the best m8.
Post by: dmb062082 on May 16, 2003, 11:28:00 PM
Cost the owner of the server a xtra 80 dollars man. Not a big deal, but he told me if you want the site back up you will have to place some add codes on your site, or remove the downloads. Its up to you your call 100% As for the haters calling for the source other than the psx port.... LOL.... they dont care about the source nor do they want it, i doubt they will contribute any time to work on your ports, (dont get me wrong some will) but the majority who are complainig are just jeallous little cave troLls period point blank, FUCK THEM. FUCK THEM ALL. As for your work its much appreciated by the scene and im sure most reading this will back me up 210%
As for the touching little story about making kids happy that was pretty tight. Im 21 shortly and i feel like a little kid some times playing your ports, they revive my childhood 100% like I said much appreciated and fuck the haters. Forgive the typos cuz im plasterd by now. There are allways a few bad apples in the bunch that try to spoil it for us all as you can see..... FUCK THEM. Xport keep up the good work and if you want to back down entierly go for it man no one is making you do all this work. Honestly you should take a fucking break if u want my personal opinion but thats just me.
You have gave the scene enough but dont get me wrong im not telling you to quit in any way ( im sure some of the readers are grumbling) my hands are still out
but i wont knock you in anyway if you take a long long deserved break. And the part about just for us kids or kids at heart? Thats gotta be bullshit bro you know you get down and play some old skewl games here and there, even if it is with ur kid. enough of me rambling though im going beer for beer with a bunch of friends with soul calibur and im getting wasted. REMEMBER KIDS BEER AND VIDEO GAMES DO MIX, UNLESS THERE ARE WOMEN AROUND!!!!!!1
Post by: dmb062082 on May 16, 2003, 10:59:00 PM
| QUOTE (XPort @ May 16 2003, 07:47 PM) |
| Cyrus - I would have been much more receptive to your reply if you had not included a "but" in it. You need to learn to be more patient. Regarding sourceforge - it requires valid contact information which I do not wish to provide. |
I KNOW i know i let ur hosting down, i can get it back but i dont expect you to place pop ups and junk on ur site, u dont want to provide valid contact info but if you want ill place it in my name if u no longer wish to stay hosted on our server, AND ill turn everything over to you can u can change ur passwords the way you see fit. and u can keep the same site/design i made for you also ill turn it over to you
Ive tried to help you in the past and i will continue if wanted. least i can do for you, you have done more for me than u will ever realize. FUCK THE HATERS!!!!!!!!1
Post by: dmb062082 on May 16, 2003, 11:43:00 PM
) to smell a fucking whore a mile away. LEAVE GO BACK TO ICARUS/BOOB. No one wants your snobby remarks here and im done being pleasent towards you for as long as we speak, and ive known you for quite some time now. GO GO FUCKING GO,why is dmb so pissed? cuz all of cyrus's actions affected me alot, in a nut shell it affected my shared server a cunt hair, which upset the main owner which fuxored with xports site. It has pissed me off alot if you cant tell from my remarks.
SERIOUSLY THOUGH, its soul calibur 2 time my friends are chucking beer cans at my monitor, peace.
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 16, 2003, 11:53:00 PM
I know most of you 'dont give a fuck' about legal issues but when it comes to gpl licensing and the matter of giving out one's sourcecode I can't see why its such a dreadful thing what I have requested. I've not flamed people, I've not abused them, I've tried to discuss a matter which no-one previously had even raised.
I too have a lot of respect for xport, and the matter is done and dusted with but this idea that i've been sacreligiously evil and trying to bring down the xbox scene is just silly. A lot of others totally agreed that there should be 'honour amongst thieves', that is all.
And please dont throw more flaming remarks at me for no reason - read what I'm actually saying. I'm not being nasty, I'm not bitching, i'm replying to unnecessary and lame abuse for a legitimate concern coming from a legitimate developer.
Post by: dmb062082 on May 16, 2003, 11:59:00 PM
| QUOTE (CyRUS64 @ May 17 2003, 08:17 AM) |
| Dmb: There's no problem between me and xport, but why do you see it such a problem to have wanted the gpl adhered to? Since thats now achieved I've been totally pleasant and I've spoken to xport about it all. I know most of you 'dont give a fuck' about legal issues but when it comes to gpl licensing and the matter of giving out one's sourcecode I can't see why its such a dreadful thing what I have requested. I've not flamed people, I've not abused them, I've tried to discuss a matter which no-one previously had even raised. I too have a lot of respect for xport, and the matter is done and dusted with but this idea that i've been sacreligiously evil and trying to bring down the xbox scene is just silly. A lot of others totally agreed that there should be 'honour amongst thieves', that is all. And please dont throw more flaming remarks at me for no reason - read what I'm actually saying. I'm not being nasty, I'm not bitching, i'm replying to unnecessary and lame abuse for a legitimate concern coming from a legitimate developer. |
thats nice due, real sweet of you to look out for the GPL and all. But why nag nag fucking nag?? You could give a rats ass about the xbox scene, and you said yourself you will never dev on one, so why the fuck are you here? Honestly? Why are you here..... You are just toying with us plain and simple trying to make us tick a little faster and your doing a excelent job at it i must say. You truley are a thorn in the underground xboxs side and i for one dont think you should come here any longer. you contribute nothing to the scene but exploits and garbadge. And you bager people as well. Porting icarus to the xbox probably wouldnt even redeem yourself. BAD DOG.... BAD DOG!!!!!1
/ME SMACKS cyrus in the face with a rolled up news paper, stop shitting on the xbox scene. Its something alot of people enjoy. I cant blame you for looking out for the GPL in any way but give it a rest lol. your job here is done, and all you really did was make xport put some binaries up on my server a little faster than i wanted to as i needed to smooth some stuff over with the boss. and now they are removed haw haw haw, you fucking acomplished nothing, NOW go HOME GNOME!!!!!1
Post by: dmb062082 on May 16, 2003, 11:37:00 PM
http://forums.xbox-s...sult_type=posts
every post on these boArds by your main man cyrus.... do any have any positive comments about the xbox? ive looked at like the 1st 50, its a fucking joke. Only time he as something semi positive to say is in reguards to the dreamcast, nothing against the DC i loved the system to death, but this guy is a joke/tool.
Post by: lucas on May 17, 2003, 12:32:00 AM
| QUOTE (headhntrthx @ May 17 2003, 04:41 PM) |
| Thank you for all your hard work. The world is more than half full of people who look at things as being half empty. |
wouldnt that make you yourself a pessimist by thinking the world is less than half full of optimists?
[edit: dmb062082, how old are you? you sound about 12. come back and say what you're trying to say when you arent drunk cause you sound like a retard right now.
Post by: feflicker on May 17, 2003, 12:07:00 AM
| CODE |
| and you said yourself you will never dev on one, so why the fuck are you here? |
This is what I have been thinking through the entire thread!
To Cyrus: No Modded Xbox? No XBE's? No XDK? Nothing nice to say about the Xbox...
Isn't there a more appropriate forum for your GPL battle?
| QUOTE |
| Cyrus: I just wish ppl would understand its not a matter of complaining, but a matter of obeying licenses, which imo is a serious issue |
I smell a future MS employee in the lot of us
To Xport: Your work is virtually unparallelled in the xbox arena. We all owe you. And I could care less if you pay for expensive web-hosting and "readily post" all of the source code to any fool with .NET and the XDK... 99.999999999% of us just want the bin anyway
Based on what you have posted, time and time again on this forum, I can only conclude that you were not trying to "steal" code. I don't think anyone can challenge your character after this thread...
Post by: dmb062082 on May 17, 2003, 12:47:00 AM
| QUOTE (lucas @ May 17 2003, 08:56 AM) |
| [edit: dmb062082, how old are you? you sound about 12. come back and say what you're trying to say when you arent drunk cause you sound like a retard right now. |
hey dude do you know a mr haywood?
you gotta know haywood man......
HAYWOOD YABLOWME?
Post by: dmb062082 on May 17, 2003, 12:51:00 AM
| QUOTE (lucas @ May 17 2003, 08:56 AM) | ||
wouldnt that make you yourself a pessimist by thinking the world is less than half full of optimists? [edit: dmb062082, how old are you? you sound about 12. come back and say what you're trying to say when you arent drunk cause you sound like a retard right now. |
sup man??
Do you know haywood??
You gotta know haywood man
HAYWOOD JABLOWME!!!1
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 17, 2003, 02:30:00 AM
Xport has been *great* and gone and done that. There's no need for continued flaming now, unless you really are a person who can't see beyond the end of your nose (ie: what you have to play with) and don't give a shit about the orig.dev'rs - read xport's own posts. He knows and understands that. He has done it, but yet ppl continue to throw petty flames my way. The other thread was a DISCUSSION on merits of gpl using, and many people agreed it should be obeyed.
Post by: lucas on May 17, 2003, 02:41:00 AM
| QUOTE (dmb062082 @ May 17 2003, 07:15 PM) | ||||
sup man?? Do you know haywood?? You gotta know haywood man HAYWOOD JABLOWME!!!1 |
now terry, you're repeating yourself. but thats ok, drunk people cant help that. A chemical reaction in your brain causes you to forget what you're saying.
^^ The Streets
Post by: evilnick on May 17, 2003, 02:48:00 AM
Post by: guile on May 17, 2003, 02:56:00 AM
| QUOTE (CyRUS64 @ May 17 2003, 10:54 AM) |
| Just trying to make the xb scene that little bit more respectable. And by the ridiculous flaming responses, its clearly beyond repair. For the last fucking time - you use someone's gpl code, you release the source. Xport has been *great* and gone and done that. There's no need for continued flaming now, unless you really are a person who can't see beyond the end of your nose (ie: what you have to play with) and don't give a shit about the orig.dev'rs - read xport's own posts. He knows and understands that. He has done it, but yet ppl continue to throw petty flames my way. The other thread was a DISCUSSION on merits of gpl using, and many people agreed it should be obeyed. |
Cyruss- I wouldn't even respond to stupid flames. You got your point across. You got what you wanted. Why explain your reasoning to flamer's? No need to. As far as I'm concerned, this thread should have been locked already.
g
Post by: guile on May 17, 2003, 03:02:00 AM
or change the title of the thread and pin it. You can change it to "As the console scene turns" or somethin like that
g
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 17, 2003, 03:23:00 AM
Post by: guile on May 17, 2003, 03:28:00 AM
| QUOTE (CyRUS64 @ May 17 2003, 11:47 AM) |
| Thanks guile. I agree it should be locked but if ppl flame you unnecessarily its hard to not respond. |
Pfft. Your telling me? lol
g
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 17, 2003, 02:53:00 AM
Post by: jasonmvt on May 17, 2003, 04:20:00 AM
The original code used was not commercially available, nor did Xport attempt to make a cent from it. The name of the program wasn't changed, and full credit was implied and/or given to the orginal author(s). In a situation like this, I would be thrilled that my outdated and abandoned work was still useful to someone out there, and saw new life on a new system, as long as there wasn't an attempt to mask where it came from.
Of course I can understand the reasoning behind proper implementation of the GPL, I am not trying to debate its merits in the 'normal' confines of development. But for the xbox, nothing can be considered as 'normal' when compared to other pieces of code written on open systems. When the fact that he used bits of code from his workplace is added, I am truly surprised Xport did release it at all. Sure, this was a 'quick and dirty' way of doing it, but I am sure he wasn't expecting a lynching for the source either
From his first post in this thread, I think it is obvious that Xport has his priorities in life correct. The people here wanted a Playstation emulator, and he has delivered like so many other times in the past, but felt that his personal interests outweighed those in the scene. That is not something to be criticized, rather it should be applauded. Would you rather lose your life's savings in court with M$ regardless of the outcome, or 'bend' a few idealogic rules to deliver something new and exciting?
This may seem childish, but so what if he hadn't released it? Who would really do something about it? Cyrus, I have much respect for you, and can certainly understand your reasons, but who would your rather avoid? The GPL Police, or M$?
Post by: XPort on May 17, 2003, 04:54:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| I think a lot of the people in these forums could be much nicer to others. |
I don't think there's a need to flame anyone regardless of what their position is on this matter. In the words of Abraham Lincoln:
| QUOTE |
| Be excellent to each other.....and....party on dudes! |
I saw it in a movie, so it must be true.
Post by: Schmoov on May 17, 2003, 05:14:00 AM
Regarding the topic: It's sad that the breed of greedy people never seems to extinct. Some years back it was Sardu who stopped developing Genecyst for this reason, now emulators like Visual Boy Advance are on the edge of being stopped - due to these people.
I always find it very eye-opening when I read about personal stuff people post. Flaming someone is always very tempting, knowing that he will never, never meet you in person. And then it is hard to even imagine that there is a real human behind all this.
Just take your time with those emus, I think we all got enough to play already for years.
And one tiny wish: Scanlines in PSCXBox v2...
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 17, 2003, 05:19:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| I saw it in a movie, so it must be true. |
Post by: skforty on May 17, 2003, 07:51:00 AM
The problem i have with alot of people goes back to my first comment about hypocracy and inconsistancies. There seems to be this HONOR among thieves mentality by people. The ol its ok to rip a business off but not a person. The bottom line is people are fighting to protect credit for coders hard work when their hard work is usually intended to defeat not give credit to THOUSANDS of peoples hard work. Im not going to get in to the intended purpose and morality of a gpl, im just going to point out the hypocracy of trying so hard to defend it. Now im also going to preface this with; If you are of the mindset that stealing paper clips from your office is LESS wrong than stealing paper clips from your friends mom, you aren't going to understand, but you should. I dont claim to NOT have isos, roms, illegal binaries, or any other form of PIRATED software, but understand im sure most of you do as well, and because of that even if you only have 1 illegally owned rom, your screwing the people who contributed to the entire product cycle of that project out of credit. Dont think so?? Take me for example, i work in the game industry (nope im not a dev), i have actually worked on 3 different xbox and 2 pc titles. My job performance is completely judged on our sales figures for that individual title. Lets say there was no way to pirate games for xbox, then our figures would be 100% accurate of how many copies were shipped and sold. But thats not the case and there is no way to accurately judge how many people WOULD have bought the game. Same thing here, why are you fighting so hard for one mans credit, when i dont see you arguing with the original authors of the emulators that they should put in the credits everyone who was involved in the entire product cycle of the hardware they are emulating. Sound ridiculous? Without those people there would be no emu, there would be demand for that emu, or any fame for emulating it. Why are you fighting so hard to respect one man when your not fighting to respect THOUSANDS of men and woman that are being alienated by the application in the first place. WHY?? Because you dont care, it doesnt affect you right? Because you dont know Bill G. and hey, he has a ton of cash right?? Because you DO know pete or linus right?? Well guess what it does affect you, more than you think. You like that game on your xbox? Dont ever complain that there wasnt a sequel. You like that console?? Dont ever complain that it died overnight. There is a valid reason to fight for thousands of people who deserve credit (because it can and does affect you), and there is a reason to fight for your fellow dev mates who code apps and release them under the GPL, (because you know them) they both affect you, but yet you fight for honor of the latter, and claim that there should be zero tolerance for any form of non-compliance, or even after someone has complied. Why so biased? Because the REAL pro's got paid? Well i already addressed how they get screwed so thats not a valid reason. Why be so biased and of HIGH MORAL STANDARDS now??? The reason?? because its convienent, and it hits a little close to home, you even envision how upset you would be if it happened to you, if you got screwed, we are all getting screwed, i dont hear you bitching to people about the roms,isos, or xbox backups they have although that could affect you as well. Why should you right?? You dont own an XBOX nor do you plan on getting one, so it doesnt affect you. EXACTLY!! Ya know what?? Neither does an Xbox emulator whos author didnt INITIALLY comply to the GPL!!! Speak up and complain when it DOES happen to you, and be quiet until it does. Your not the super hero for all homebrew developers everywhere. Be consistant in your beliefs, ethics, and morals.
Edit:
I appologize for the length, cohesion, and probably general coherency of this post. I havent slept yet and its 8 am.
This was also not intended as a flame. I also appologize for posting this in this particular thread, This was an "XPORT explanation" thread, and i severely got off topic, if a moderator could please move this for me in to what they feel is a more appropriate thread it would be appreciated. Thanks, and Thanks again xport
Post by: PeteBernert on May 17, 2003, 08:02:00 AM
But more important (in my eyes) is that some of you should question your ways of thinking.
I often have the impression here that you think that the main coders of the ported emus are jealous over XPort's (oe other porters) doing, and therefore they want to stop or hinder him in some way. That's (plain and simple) crap. I have millions of hits on my own private homepage, and I get over 100 mails each week from psx emu lovers, so why should I have a reason to be jealous when I see that a porter of my code is having success in his doing?
So you may ask: why all that bitching around for a GPL source release, why the critism over XPort's doing? It's quite easy: a porter is always part of a bigger team. By definition, even if he is not aware of it. His doings will affect all of the team members. And teams have rules. Like the GPL: "if you change this sources, make sure that everybody can see your changes, for the benefit of everyone". Another simple rule with all free PSX emus I do know is: "don't bundle the emu with SONY's BIOS".
A team member (porter) who is honoring this rules will get full support, no problems at all. Somebody who isn't following the rules is no team member, not even a porter, but simply a thief. And there is no love or respect for thieves in the emulation scenes I know.
And there's some other thing you have to keep in mind: if some wanna-be porter doesn't feel comfortable with a team's rules, he is always free to look for some other team's work, which is maybe better suited for his way of thinking.
Last but not least: main coders usually don't go and argue much. There is not much fun in doing so. Why should they fight each and every windmill? They will simply stop the wind itself. That's within their powers. If you like it or not.
Post by: Enkak on May 17, 2003, 08:13:00 AM
Post by: skforty on May 17, 2003, 08:33:00 AM
Post by: blitz6 on May 17, 2003, 09:52:00 AM
I've been following the Emulation scene since before NeorageX was release in #neogeo on efnet. This PCSX issue is really disturbing. Ive seen this type of situation come up before, and its always a absolute moron like Cyrus whos out for blood since he wants attention.
Key points:
Xport is a great person who has made THOUSANDS of people happy and enjoyed their lives more due to these incredible ports. I cant tell you how much fun it is to play these classics with my 60 year old father at his house as we spend time with each other. My little sister also loves the xbox and so many of the games on it.
People like Cyrus can seriously die. I hope people like you get run over and then burned, then eaten by stray dogs. You are the putrid dump of the world, doing nothing but whining and demanding what you want. I seriously hope you are dead soon, and i pray for your early demise.
Thank you xport, and the MANY MANY Xbox emulation authors who've brought joy and happiness to so many xbox owners with good times playing the old classics like we did when we were young. Your effor and work has CERTAINLY not gone unnoticed and we appreciate so much of it.
Post by: Large Dopant white on May 17, 2003, 10:00:00 AM
Oh, and projects don't die from critizism; as it's been said before, coders usually port stuff because they, personally, want to, not because ranting pre-teens on the web want it. Regardless of what a coder says, it dies because interest is lost on the coder's behalf.
Post by: SweeneyTodd on May 17, 2003, 10:20:00 AM
Oh, and "nisi illegitimi carborundum".
Post by: gsta_uk on May 17, 2003, 10:40:00 AM
"Thanks Xport for all your hard work, don't let these jealous peeps try to put you off. You've done the whole scene a favour and I think many would agree, we are in your debt"
Many thanks mate!!!!!
Post by: PeteBernert on May 17, 2003, 11:22:00 AM
yes, you do need to point this out. Because I cannot see any 'hypocracy'. If you think that every emu coder is by definition a thief (maybe because he 'steals' the intellectual property of the console makers), than you are wrong, and you have no clue about things like legal reverse engineering, or brooding over senseless bytes without any official documentations.
Anyway, I haven't said that XPort is a thief. He reacted correctly when he realised that there were certain demands from the main developers. I was just trying to explain the reactions _before_ he made the sources public, and how an active main developer feels about his projects.
Post by: Mage on May 17, 2003, 12:16:00 PM
| QUOTE (PeteBernert @ May 17 2003, 11:46 AM) |
| >do i really need to point out the hypocracy of a contributing developer of a psx emu calling someone else a thief? yes, you do need to point this out. Because I cannot see any 'hypocracy'. If you think that every emu coder is by definition a thief (maybe because he 'steals' the intellectual property of the console makers), than you are wrong, and you have no clue about things like legal reverse engineering, or brooding over senseless bytes without any official documentations. Anyway, I haven't said that XPort is a thief. He reacted correctly when he realised that there were certain demands from the main developers. I was just trying to explain the reactions _before_ he made the sources public, and how an active main developer feels about his projects. |
I know lots about 'legal' reserve engineering, and guess what, often times the way a person got the information to give to the group who is doing it 'legally' weren't legal. Tainted reserach made to look legal, but it still wasn't legal.
You think the ps2 scene found ALL the information about GS tags on their own? No, someone used SCEI docs, much like what people DID do with the psx scene many moons ago.
YOUR code might not have, but you've got much of your information from other people, and sure you can say since you got it from them, your hands are clean, but they aren't.
This is the way the emulation scene does indeed work, you can still act like it's all perfectly legal, makes no difference to me, we'll still give you guys the info you need though.
Btw, are you going to host any code that uses the XDK on your site? I highly doubt you'll want to take that risk. That is the main reason why I say the GPL doesn't matter when his port is in such a risky legal area.
Nice job on the emulator though.
Post by: rjm2k on May 17, 2003, 12:48:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mage @ May 17 2003, 08:16 PM) | ||
I know lots about 'legal' reserve engineering, and guess what, often times the way a person got the information to give to the group who is doing it 'legally' weren't legal. Tainted reserach made to look legal, but it still wasn't legal. You think the ps2 scene found ALL the information about GS tags on their own? No, someone used SCEI docs, much like what people DID do with the psx scene many moons ago. YOUR code might not have, but you've got much of your information from other people, and sure you can say since you got it from them, your hands are clean, but they aren't. This is the way the emulation scene does indeed work, you can still act like it's all perfectly legal, makes no difference to me, we'll still give you guys the info you need though. Btw, are you going to host any code that uses the XDK on your site? I highly doubt you'll want to take that risk. That is the main reason why I say the GPL doesn't matter when his port is in such a risky legal area. Nice job on the emulator though. |
This is the way that the original IBM PC clones (Compaq) got around the problem of copying the bios, one set reverse engineered the bios and produced a description of the functionality without reference to how it was actually implemented. A second "clean room" group then produced a replacement bios which had the same functionality but was implemented differently.
Post by: MURDERER on May 17, 2003, 01:09:00 PM
iMURDERER
Post by: guile on May 17, 2003, 02:58:00 PM
| QUOTE (PeteBernert @ May 17 2003, 07:46 PM) |
| >do i really need to point out the hypocracy of a contributing developer of a psx emu calling someone else a thief? yes, you do need to point this out. Because I cannot see any 'hypocracy'. If you think that every emu coder is by definition a thief (maybe because he 'steals' the intellectual property of the console makers), than you are wrong, and you have no clue about things like legal reverse engineering, or brooding over senseless bytes without any official documentations. Anyway, I haven't said that XPort is a thief. He reacted correctly when he realised that there were certain demands from the main developers. I was just trying to explain the reactions _before_ he made the sources public, and how an active main developer feels about his projects. |
Pete- Since you seem to be satisfied with the way Xport reacted to your request's, do you think you would ever allow
Xport the use of your plugin's if he asked?
g
Post by: faceless on May 17, 2003, 04:05:00 PM
i bet the designers over at sony wished people could only play playstation games on a sony playstation... so what about their wishes?
ok, just playing devil's advocate...
Post by: djmrm on May 17, 2003, 04:53:00 PM
Pete, you've done soo much fantastic work in the PC scene, and have my full respect.
Your plugins are amazing, and I always look forward to each and every release.
Thats what makes ePSXe soo damn amazing, and far far superior to every other PSX emulator out there.
And as a request, don't EVER release your source to this "community", if this is what you can expect to recieve. And can we call it a community ? Or shall we call it a warez group, as thats the feeling you get when you go underground to IRC to get an emulator compiled with a totally illegal SDK.
As for Xport, he's a great man. He's obviously got some talent, and it's shown with his ports.
But I do agree about the BIOS, it should NEVER be included with ANY emulator PERIOD !! And makes the legality even worse as it could attract Sony. After all, it's THEIR property.
| QUOTE |
| Xport, You are an XBOX Scene Saviour, I am sorry that kiddies around here make you feel that you have to defend yourself for whatever reason. I appreciate all the work you are doing for the scene. I don't see too many people releasing programs at the same rate that you do. We are moving so fast because you release so many programs for the XBOX! Xport, you are one awesome dude. To everybody else who bitches at Xport for whatever reason. "Suck a nut Beyatch!" |
It's posts like these that really p*ss me off.
The Xbox "Scene", wouldn't be a "Scene" if it weren't for the PC coders PERIOD !!
You can skew the words any way you wish, you can insult the PC coders any way you wish, but the FACTS are true. PERIOD !! NO ifs !! NO buts !!
As far as I've seen it, noone "Bitched" at him. They merely asked for the GPL to be honoured. Not a lot to ask from someone who's put hundreds of man hours into his work, for FREE !!
| QUOTE |
| People like Cyrus can seriously die. I hope people like you get run over and then burned, then eaten by stray dogs. You are the putrid dump of the world, doing nothing but whining and demanding what you want. I seriously hope you are dead soon, and i pray for your early demise. |
I can't believe I just read that. Where are the moderators ?
That should be an instant ban. Thats worse than ANY flame, or even a hundred "Where's my PS2 emulator" posts.
I hope you ignored that, Cyrus. That was way out of line.
I think you are making a fantastic contribution to the PC emulator scene. And your progress on Icarus is superb.
To the users flaming this guy,
At least I'll get to play a fantastic DC emulator, when Cyrus feels it's right to release it.
You'll never get to see his source, you'll NEVER see a working DC emulator.
Oh and Cyrus, if you ever need a new beta tester...
Well, I do have 150 DC games still in use on this amazing little console.
And lastly, I expect I'll get some flames from the children that spoil this forum. But thats what you expect from kids today.
Post by: guile on May 17, 2003, 05:03:00 PM
| QUOTE (djmrm @ May 18 2003, 01:17 AM) |
| I can't believe the disrespect some of you have given to Pete, and then got the balls to ask for his plugin source. |
What are you talking about? I guess I'm the guy with the ballz that asked. I didn't ask for it, I was just curious
to know if Xport asked. would he consider it. I don't know if you have read this entire thread (or the other few threads
that were based on the same thing) but I think all points were made and satisfied. I'm not gonna say I agree with the
way some people treated Cyruss but are we going to start this whole thing all over again?? This thread (as far as I'm concerned) should have been locked already. Now it will turn into another flame fest with no end in sight.
g
Post by: guile on May 17, 2003, 05:05:00 PM
| QUOTE (djmrm @ May 18 2003, 01:17 AM) |
| Oh and Cyrus, if you ever need a new beta tester... Well, I do have 150 DC games still in use on this amazing little console. |
Yeah, and they are all RETAIL copies that YOU purchased right?? If your DC scene is so amazing, why are you here?
g
Post by: guile on May 17, 2003, 04:31:00 PM
| QUOTE (djmrm @ May 18 2003, 01:17 AM) |
| IOh and Cyrus, if you ever need a new beta tester... Well, I do have 150 DC games still in use on this amazing little console. |
And they are all RETAIL games that YOU purchased, right? If your DC scene is so amazing, why are you here?
g
Post by: dmb062082 on May 17, 2003, 05:37:00 PM
-------------------------------------------------------
No more flaming and complaing sound cool? Lets get along. AND AS for my post in this thread last night, yes i happened to be a little drunk but i still made a point none the less. Now if i can be excused im gonna go test the latest update in the 1 and only psx emu for the xbox.
Post by: Iriez on May 17, 2003, 06:10:00 PM
| QUOTE (djmrm @ May 17 2003, 06:17 PM) |
| And as a request, don't EVER release your source to this "community", if this is what you can expect to recieve. And can we call it a community ? Or shall we call it a warez group, as thats the feeling you get when you go underground to IRC to get an emulator compiled with a totally illegal SDK. |
Im sorry, but thats just retarded. Praising someone for their work is great and positive, but that attitude is uncalled for. Seriously, dont bring it here, no one wants to hear that bullshit. What pete does, pete will do based upon his own feelings. What you feel, and what is are two different things. Sorry, its not a 'warez group' buddy. Just because its borderline, grey area stuff, shouldnt make us feel like criminals using it. Remember that it still is custom, homebrew, 100% legal personal code, its just compiled without the use of a nice free SDK. Instead of bitching, why dont you just rally for a SDK instead?
| QUOTE |
| The Xbox "Scene", wouldn't be a "Scene" if it weren't for the PC coders PERIOD !! |
Thats stating the obvious isnt it? In order to port code with a directX native, using a broken down win2k kernel, wouldnt it be alot easier if you were a experienced x86 coder?
Although i think you just poorly misworded the sentence. I think you are referring to the emulation scene, and how people 'port' their releases? Well, i got news for you, thats not the 'xbox scene' and far from it. Thats emulation on the xbox, and only a part of the scene. SiRioKD hand wrote his emulators that he ported to the xbox, and made a emu exclusivly for the xbox platform.
http://www.xbins.org/applist.php
See everything on that list besides the homebrew games/emulation section? Thats all coded specifically for the xbox platform, or for use in conjunction with the xbox. Dont try to tell me that our scene wouldnt be a scene if it wasnt for ports. Try to tell team assembly who spent 6-8 months working on config magic, decrypting data, editing the xbox eeprom *on the fly*, that what he did for our scene was bullshit and wasnt possible if not for a original authors work. I could give you tons of the same examples, if you really wish to feel put in your place more.
| QUOTE |
| Oh and Cyrus, if you ever need a new beta tester... Well, I do have 150 DC games still in use on this amazing little console. |
Oh jesus what a little ass kisser fanboi. Go back to your DC forums fanboi, no one wants you here.
| QUOTE |
| And lastly, I expect I'll get some flames from the children that spoil this forum. But thats what you expect from kids today. |
Uh, and you are not spoiling this forum, trying to demand that such a author as pete NOT ever release his sources, to better progress this scene? Give me a freaking break. The only kid here is you, but hey, i guess thats all you can expect from children today.
Post by: Mechazilla on May 17, 2003, 06:56:00 PM
| QUOTE (Iriez @ May 18 2003, 02:10 AM) | ||
Thats stating the obvious isnt it? In order to port code with a directX native, using a broken down win2k kernel, wouldnt it be alot easier if you were a experienced x86 coder? Although i think you just poorly misworded the sentence. I think you are referring to the emulation scene, and how people 'port' their releases? Well, i got news for you, thats not the 'xbox scene' and far from it. Thats emulation on the xbox, and only a part of the scene. SiRioKD hand wrote his emulators that he ported to the xbox, and made a emu exclusivly for the xbox platform. |
Thats what I'm saying Cyrus64 go to hell, you have yet to say one positive thing about xbox. Everyone here is tired of your bullshit just leave.
Post by: dmb062082 on May 17, 2003, 07:03:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mechazilla @ May 18 2003, 03:20 AM) |
| Thats what I'm saying Cyrus64 go to hell, you have yet to say one positive thing about xbox. Everyone here is tired of your bullshit just leave. |
Thats what Ive been saying as well. But im done harping on people. Viva la xport.
Post by: 247 on May 17, 2003, 08:24:00 PM
I'm very great full to all the authors of all pc emulators and i mean every body even the ones that haven't released their src , because the fact that a emulator is working in a computer will make somebody very happy.
Special thanks to all authors that have released their source codes of all the wonderfull emulators that have being ported to the XBOX, DC, PSX, AND PS2 etc.
Also Special thanks to all the authors of all plugins,because without them some emulators
would not have sound,video, 3d texture etc. you guys are great. keepup the GOOD WORK.
I love my Xbox and i want tell all the guys that have ported emulators and homebrew
games,apps ,dash, tools etc. that you people are wonderfull. Thank you for GOOD WORK.
now i'm new to the xbox-scene but lets stop this mess Because we all need each other lets have more respect for each other. sorry as you can see my native laguege is not english THANK YOU ALL OF YOU OUT THERE.
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 17, 2003, 10:27:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| The Xbox "Scene", wouldn't be a "Scene" if it weren't for the PC coders PERIOD !! |
Mechazilla,dmb: Actually I have stopped posting and ignoring lame flames! If you actually check who wrote that you'd see it was djmrm and nothing to do with me! For some reason mechazilla quoted me as saying it. Lame. Apologies awaiting.
Post by: lucas on May 17, 2003, 10:37:00 PM
| QUOTE (CyRUS64 @ May 18 2003, 04:51 PM) | ||
Mechazilla,dmb: Actually I have stopped posting and ignoring lame flames! If you actually check who wrote that you'd see it was djmrm and nothing to do with me! For some reason mechazilla quoted me as saying it. Lame. Apologies awaiting. |
children won't apologize
Post by: Mechazilla on May 17, 2003, 11:06:00 PM
Post by: dmb062082 on May 17, 2003, 11:10:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mechazilla @ May 18 2003, 07:30 AM) |
| Go do a fucking Apple commercial or something, then die. |
If I ever met one of the people who actually did a apple commercial I dunno what I would do, cuss them out or laugh at them.
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 17, 2003, 11:17:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| you still responded to my last post |
You quoted me as saying something I never said and then flamed me for it and you don't expect a reply!? Only immature adults/children would ever wish someone else to die. Grow up Mechazilla
You should have been apologising not flaming me yet again. The dc scene is v.much still alive in actual fact, but just not full of lamers like you, thankfully.
Post by: Mechazilla on May 17, 2003, 11:19:00 PM
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 17, 2003, 11:21:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| What I tell ya. |
Have you ever been on the Jerry Springer show?
Post by: Mechazilla on May 17, 2003, 11:26:00 PM
Post by: Iriez on May 17, 2003, 11:46:00 PM
Do you think that displaying your personal opinion about the guys personal traits is going to adversly affect anything ? Seriously guys, grow up. He's quit his ramblings on anything, and the only ones fueling the fire is yourselves.
His viewpoint was reasonable, just a bit too direct and demanding. Sheesh, everyone makes mistakes = )
Post by: gainpresence on May 17, 2003, 11:48:00 PM
This is an open forum, CyRUS64 has as much right to be here as any of you do. Regardless if he likes the "Xbox Scene" or not.
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 18, 2003, 12:00:00 AM
What I requested has been achieved. I'm happy.. there are other interersting 'non-controversial' threads I'm interested by so I do still check those but this flaming bout is just pointless now. However if ppl put words in your mouth or are unnecessarily rude it is hard not to put in a defence, so a mod should just shut it in imho, since the thread has no purpose to serve.
Iriez: You're spot on
-CyRUS
Post by: Iriez on May 18, 2003, 01:24:00 AM
| QUOTE (CyRUS64 @ May 18 2003, 01:24 AM) |
| gainpresence: I think it may just be best to close this thread, and everyone can just get on with enjoying the scene / forums. What I requested has been achieved. I'm happy.. there are other interersting 'non-controversial' threads I'm interested by so I do still check those but this flaming bout is just pointless now. However if ppl put words in your mouth or are unnecessarily rude it is hard not to put in a defence, so a mod should just shut it in imho, since the thread has no purpose to serve. Iriez: You're spot on -CyRUS |
Oh, btw, just for your personal knowledge, XPort is no longer packaging the bios with his releases. Just something i thought i would mention based upon the package of the v2 release. Keep in mind that what x**ns distributes is my agenda, and if anyone has issues with it they can pm me.
As i really have no obligation to help kids warez their roms, i couldnt care less about repackaging his release with the bios to distribute, let alone their troubles ; )
When it comes down to it im actually very strongly against piracy, albiet liberaly on some fair usage policies ; )
Anyways bro, best of luck to Icarus, its a shame the OpenXDK has not progressed as much as it possibly could have, otherwise some original N64 authors could legally participate and be fully rewarded in the little contest for their years of effort.
Post by: CyRUS64 on May 18, 2003, 03:41:00 AM
My graphics renderer for Icarus did actually used to be on the OpenXDK project but he left for funner things since he felt it wasn't really going anywhere sadly...
Edit: That's good about the bios packaging.. its probably not too hard for even newbies to find and add a psx bios themselves
Post by: bubbathemaster on May 18, 2003, 06:29:00 AM
Post by: Jerico on May 18, 2003, 08:56:00 AM
Cyrus did alot for the DC scene and he only tries to make the xbox scene more respectablly. He is completly right in what he said and he is also fine with Xport. There's is and was no need to talk that shit. As gainpresence said before, everyone has the right to stay here and if you can't understand that, then you have to leave this forum. It makes me sick to hear that shit from you, kids. Grow and shut up.
Post by: TerrorShocked on May 18, 2003, 12:34:00 PM
| QUOTE (Mechazilla @ May 18 2003, 04:36 PM) |
| CyRUS64 your still here? Why? |
Why? Because is is a public forum, and the fact that you are bitching about it shows that you are so insecure about your beliefs that you find it necessary to tell cyrus, "to die"
Post by: mr jones on May 18, 2003, 05:12:00 PM
Xport needs to die because he's god, and I'm athiest.
Iriez needs to die because he puts his posts and opinions in a well organized format, and I'm chaotic by nature.
Gainpresence needs to die because he has power, and I'll all about standin' against "da man," yo! That and he changed his avatar, and it disturbed my peace of mind not being able to see Col. Sanders!
So there. That's MY response. WHAT?! Whatzya muhfuggin' reply ta dat, son!?
Whoa, had a moment of thuggishness for a sec. Sorry 'bout that.
Back to your regularly scheduled thread.
Post by: carazy on June 04, 2003, 07:31:00 AM
you do this for free and for this you have my most upmost gratitute.
I have absoultly enjoyed the programs you have brought to the Xbox and the enjoyment I got out of it is all thanks to you.
You rock mate. Don't let the wankers get you down and good on you for being so mature about it. Alot of other people would have turned their backs.