Post by: FooLiP on November 30, 2005, 03:40:00 AM
but there's no reason why you won't be able to run in 576p
however it's going to look better in 720p, and most TV's that take 576p take 720p
Post by: OEM on December 01, 2005, 01:48:00 AM
I've been trying to get my PAL Xbox 360 (got it yesterday) to output 480p, but no such luck yet. Tried a Japanese NTSC region 2 DVD, and it also displayed in 576p. In other words NTSC output is converted to PAL. I don't like this at all.
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on December 01, 2005, 04:27:00 AM
QUOTE(OEM @ Dec 1 2005, 07:55 PM) 
It's 576p. And that totally sucks, because it means 50Hz screen refresh.
I've been trying to get my PAL Xbox 360 (got it yesterday) to output 480p, but no such luck yet. Tried a Japanese NTSC region 2 DVD, and it also displayed in 576p. In other words NTSC output is converted to PAL. I don't like this at all.
i dont liek taht at all.
what sort of cables are you using?
surley there has to be a way to get it into anotehr display mode. i cant belive it if m$ hass butt fucked the PAL nations of this world AGAIN.
Post by: twistedsymphony on December 01, 2005, 05:24:00 AM
QUOTE(corkinator @ Dec 1 2005, 06:41 AM)
Don't know too much about this stuff, but wouldn't you prefer 576p because it's a higher res?!
yeah... Refresh rates only really matter on CRTs.
DLPs, LCDs, Plasmas, etc. "fade" from one frame to the next so there's no flicker effect from a slow refresh rate.
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on December 01, 2005, 03:53:00 PM
QUOTE(FooLiP @ Dec 2 2005, 12:03 AM)
this isn't MS screwing people, these are standards, it would be worse if MS invented new display standards.
thanks for the detailed explanition, but i think m$ is screwing us because i dont think they will let us PAL people access to 480p, 720p, or 1080i.
Post by: OEM on December 01, 2005, 05:54:00 PM
QUOTE(twistedsymphony @ Dec 1 2005, 01:31 PM)
yeah... Refresh rates only really matter on CRTs.
DLPs, LCDs, Plasmas, etc. "fade" from one frame to the next so there's no flicker effect from a slow refresh rate.
50Hz is a far bigger problem than just the flickering. 50Hz means the max possible framerate in games is 50fps, down from 60fps. Even worse since 95% of all games use vsynch to keep the framerate locked, games that are locked at 30fps will only play at 25fps in 50Hz. This is a noticeable difference. PAL games just don't play smoothly in 50Hz.
Also most games use the refresh rate to control the ingame speed (an object moves from a to b using a set number of frames). Unless the PAL version is optimized for the lower refresh, the game plays noticeably slower. Add to this that sometimes the PAL version haven't even been optimized for the increased resolution (big black borders on top and bottom of the screen and characters that look short and fat) and maybe you'll understand better why 50Hz is so detested among European gamers...
And no true gamer play games on anything other than CRT's anyway
Post by: corkinator on December 01, 2005, 08:53:00 PM
QUOTE(ferrari_rulz_02 @ Dec 2 2005, 12:00 AM)
thanks for the detailed explanition, but i think m$ is screwing us because i dont think they will let us PAL people access to 480p, 720p, or 1080i.
I think 720p and 1080i should be available, I just don't know about 480p.
I haven't seen even one TV in Australia that claims to be 480p. I've only seen 576p on it's own, or 576p/720p/1080i etc.
As long as it works in 567p for me, I'd be happy. That's what my tv does anyway (it also runs Xbox 1 games in 480p... so who knows with the 360). Any higher res, I'd just use the vga adapter and my monitor for.
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on December 01, 2005, 11:32:00 PM
QUOTE(corkinator @ Dec 2 2005, 03:00 PM)
I think 720p and 1080i should be available, I just don't know about 480p.
I haven't seen even one TV in Australia that claims to be 480p. I've only seen 576p on it's own, or 576p/720p/1080i etc.
As long as it works in 567p for me, I'd be happy. That's what my tv does anyway (it also runs Xbox 1 games in 480p... so who knows with the 360). Any higher res, I'd just use the vga adapter and my monitor for.
yeah, you wont find a tv in aus that is 480p.
i really would like to see if someone with a pal 360 can get 720p / 1080i to work. i think it should.
but i will most likely be using the vga adapter, as i dont have a high-def tv. but i know a few mates who have nice lcd's, and they will be pisses if tehy can play in 720p/1080i
Post by: Joergen on December 02, 2005, 07:58:00 AM
It would be total murder to have to run them at 50hz so you get 25fps instead of 30 in games like PGR3 which is a considerable drop in the frame rate when you have so few to work with.
Logic would say the PAL games have to support 60hz for VGA since 50hz high VGA modes dont exist. But as always developers are thick as a bricks and dont know to even add 25/30fps intro videos into their games to keep them from stuttering.
Post by: redwolf on December 02, 2005, 04:25:00 PM
( i guess you'll too busy playing to come to the forums
)
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on December 02, 2005, 07:56:00 PM
QUOTE(Joergen @ Dec 3 2005, 02:05 AM)
Please somebody with a PAL unit try to CONFIRM if there are 50 and 60hz modes available for 720p.
i think you will find that 720p and 1080i are both NTSC standards,a nd thus they are only avialble in 60hz
Post by: ShadowElitePro on December 02, 2005, 07:59:00 PM
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on December 02, 2005, 08:02:00 PM
QUOTE(fahrenheit @ Dec 3 2005, 02:03 PM)
720p and 1080i are reported fine at 60Hz. I believe it is those with EDTV's that only do 480p that will be screwed over.
well they are only getting screwed over becuase they dont have a hd tv. from what i have found (usign a pc monitor), normal composite tv looks far better then 480p
QUOTE(ShadowElitePro @ Dec 3 2005, 02:06 PM)
Maybe M$ hates the UK I feel sorry for you guys.
hey, its not only the UK. Australia and a lot of other countrys are PAL.
Post by: Joergen on December 02, 2005, 08:53:00 PM
North and South america and Japan are NTSC (due to the US invasion of Japan in the pacific war).
Secondly, there are nearly 10 HDTV channels available in europe via satellite and cable (still picking up) that broadcast in 50hz, this includes 720p and 1080i. Though I SO wish they didnt because we need a common standard now that the switch to HD is happening. There is no need for 50hz for modern display technologies. Having 50hz will just yield YET AGAIN lazy-assed blurry conversions of 60hz mastered material esp. with non-film material like sporting events.
And HD specs are NOT NTSC since they do not use the NTSC color system but RGB via MPEG2 TS. Only an interlaced RF and Video composite carries NTSC. In fact S-Video isnt NTSC either. So there
The trade-off for a little more flicker for PAL is quite alot more vertical scanlines (makes for a tangibly higher resolution even on a 28" CRT) and easier telecine (just speed up movies of 24fps to 25fps, "progressive scan" since day one). And the CRT was invented by Dr. Hermann Braun.
But yes I've been confirmed that the PAL games are in 60hz for all HD modes and in fact they seem to lack 50hz (25fps) synced videos so playing at 576i has stuttering videos (developers will never learn, but now they dont have to any more when im concerned).
Happy HD days!
Post by: fahrenheit on December 02, 2005, 11:54:00 PM
What is the price to pay for that extra resolution you covert? Well 576p is 50Hz only and most games will be made and optimised for 60Hz. So it comes down to the hardware's ability to convert standards. Don't expect perfect results. And then there are question of system-link and Live between 50 and 60Hz gamers.
Another reason to stick to HD I guess.
Post by: corkinator on December 03, 2005, 02:11:00 AM
Post by: FooLiP on December 03, 2005, 02:32:00 AM
QUOTE(ferrari_rulz_02 @ Dec 3 2005, 05:03 AM)
i think you will find that 720p and 1080i are both NTSC standards,a nd thus they are only avialble in 60hz
this is simply not true.
first of all NTSC is 480i, it is not a standard for HDTV modes. it is simply the 480i system used in the US and other countries. Don't use it to describe HDTV standards, as it simply shows lack of comprehension, and confuses those coming here for information.
secondly 720p and 1080 certainly do come in 50Hz and 60Hz.
Post by: OEM on December 03, 2005, 08:24:00 PM
QUOTE(Joergen @ Dec 3 2005, 05:00 AM)
First, all former dutch, french and UK imperial colonies are PAL, so that includes all of africa, middle-east, india and china.
And HD specs are NOT NTSC since they do not use the NTSC color system but RGB via MPEG2 TS. Only an interlaced RF and Video composite carries NTSC. In fact S-Video isnt NTSC either. So there
Japan, Brazil, USA and Canada = NTSC.
Rest of the world = PAL.
NTSC is not a color system. It's 525 horisontal lines displayed 60 times per second, and that's it. PAL is 625/50. Same bandwidth. NTSC is the superior system, unless you enjoy getting a headache from the low refresh flicker. Both S-Video and RGB are NTSC if 525/60.
And MPEG2 TS is not RGB but YUV
Post by: OEM on December 03, 2005, 08:36:00 PM
QUOTE(FooLiP @ Dec 3 2005, 10:39 AM)
secondly 720p and 1080 certainly do come in 50Hz and 60Hz.
Well he did mention 1080i / 50Hz HDTV channels in Europe...
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on December 04, 2005, 12:07:00 AM
QUOTE(corkinator @ Dec 3 2005, 04:02 PM)
You mean component tv don't you?
no, i meant composite.
if you run 480i/p on a monitor, then turn around and play the same thing via composite on a nomrla tv, the normal tv will win for picture quality hands down.
Post by: corkinator on December 04, 2005, 04:28:00 AM
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on December 04, 2005, 05:11:00 AM
QUOTE(fahrenheit @ Dec 4 2005, 07:49 PM)
Absolutely no one will back you on that opinion. Especially in the case of 480p.
Replace eyes immediately.
QUOTE(corkinator @ Dec 4 2005, 10:35 PM)
Sorry ferrari but you must have used some crappy vga adapter when seeing an Xbox on a monitor. 90% of them out there do indeed suck. Something like the X2VGA running an Xbox on a monitor is clearly better than a regular tv with composite. There is no question.
well guys, with the way i have it set up, it looks shit 720p and 1080i are awesome, but 480p is horrible
Post by: twistedsymphony on December 04, 2005, 10:47:00 AM
QUOTE(Joergen @ Dec 2 2005, 10:05 AM)
Please somebody with a PAL unit try to CONFIRM if there are 50 and 60hz modes available for 720p.
It would be total murder to have to run them at 50hz so you get 25fps instead of 30 in games like PGR3 which is a considerable drop in the frame rate when you have so few to work with.
Logic would say the PAL games have to support 60hz for VGA since 50hz high VGA modes dont exist. But as always developers are thick as a bricks and dont know to even add 25/30fps intro videos into their games to keep them from stuttering.
Actually if your're running 720p at 50Hz you're capped at 50FPS not 25, because it's progressive scan...
If you were running 1080i at 50Hz it would be capped at 25 because it's interlaced.
So if you're running 720p you're FPS cap is much higher than what most games are rendering anyway.
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on December 04, 2005, 04:10:00 PM
so that means anything more is a difference not visible to the eye...
Post by: jansmusix on December 04, 2005, 05:45:00 PM
i had my 360on hdtv at 480 720 and 1080 on pal system works all fine
Post by: fahrenheit on December 04, 2005, 06:42:00 PM
Choose 720p and load up a game that is 60Hz, then reboot and go to the dash and select 480p. According to some people 480p will now truely be 480p! (as for switching to 720p in your case, you may have to insert the green component cable into a composite input on your projector or a TV and hope you get a stable black and white image).
If you switch the component cable over to 'TV' setting then back to 'HDTV' again, the console is said to default back to 576p again.
The fact that 576p is there but mislabelled seems to suggest that it was a bit of a last minute hackjob. At this stage, we need someone with all of the equipment and know-how to systematically test and publish the results.
720p/1080i @ 50 and 60Hz is said to be software selected, so a game like Halo PAL plays in 720p@50Hz.
I am only going by what I have cobbled together from others in the UK, as I don't have a console yet. But weither I get an NTSC or PAL console and which HDTV I buy depends greatly on establishing this info.
Post by: ferrari_rulz_02 on December 04, 2005, 10:42:00 PM