Post by: Xbox-Scene on January 14, 2008, 01:58:00 PM
HD DVD Not Dead yet: Lower Prices, New Marketing, Strong Q4 Sales Posted by XanTium | January 14 15:22 EST | News Category: Xbox360 |
| From the press release: Quote
Read the whole press release here. |
Post by: Boydster on January 14, 2008, 02:39:00 PM
Not.
Post by: sp1200 on January 14, 2008, 02:42:00 PM
A fish flopping on the ground as it gasps for air.
HD-DVD.
Post by: Ranger72 on January 14, 2008, 02:59:00 PM
If Toshiba cared at all for its customers it will just walk away and start backing blu-ray for the betterment of the consumer.
I have 2 stand alone HD-DVD players and the HD-DVD add on for the 360 and I HOPE HD-DVD just dies gracefully instead of dragging this useless format war on.
Post by: twistedsymphony on January 14, 2008, 03:22:00 PM
Blu-Ray didn't kill HD-DVD Toshiba did...
... they were too cheap to subsidize the cost of adding a HD-DVD player into all 360s
... they were too lax in running a proper advertising campaign touting HD-DVD releases making it look like their product never really existed
... they were too foolish in believing that price alone would sell their players without advertising the benefits over BRD from a feature/reliability/quality standpoint
... they lacked the foresight to get the big media companies on-board early and too lazy/cheap to offer the proper incentives
It's too late now... the executives at Toshiba are throwing money into a sinking ship shouting "ITS NOT DEAD YET!!!" while everyone else is sitting around with their watching going. "ok, sure... but it will be any second now...."
Sony could go on record tomorrow saying that their discs are sewn from the bones of newborn children and HD-DVD will still die as a next gen format.
Post by: Bandit5317 on January 14, 2008, 03:36:00 PM
, but I'm pretty sure it's over now.
Post by: bucko on January 14, 2008, 03:49:00 PM
QUOTE
Your 5 free bonus titles are currently waiting to be packed and dispatched, they should be with you within the next week. Thankyou for your patience.
Post by: Mr Invader on January 14, 2008, 04:18:00 PM
But we know that will never happen^ Not that it isn't possible, it's that MS doesn't want to.
Post by: STICKY_BUD on January 14, 2008, 04:24:00 PM
besides the holdiay releases, most of 2007's best movies have already made it to hd-dvd and 2008 is going to be a terrible year for hollywood movies. in other words, it may actually be sometime in 2009 before i personally adopt bluray. i am sure there are lots of catalog titles to be released that i will want to buy before then, but i am happy to wait it out until mass market prices are upon us.
the only thing that could change this for me is if mgs4 is released and sells so well on ps3 that konami decides to kill the 360 port. my brother-in-law is one of the voice actors so i am willing to buy a ps3 for that reason alone, but not if i can enjoy his work on the console i already own...
Post by: HackMy360 on January 14, 2008, 04:39:00 PM
Post by: JohnnyVegas on January 14, 2008, 05:17:00 PM
I will not buy either since I can simply rent them through my OnDemand Cable now anyway.
Post by: cerealkillajme on January 14, 2008, 04:51:00 PM
I sat on the fence for a long time before finally getting into this format war. I bought an HD-A2 on November 2nd (the pre-black friday sales) and don't regret it one bit, not even now since the Warner decision. I've bought 41 movies in that time as well to help support the format.
My thoughts before the format war: I just wanted the stupid format war to be over and somebody win so that I could invest into a player and movies once again (I stopped buying any SD-DVDs when I first found out about the 2 competing formats about a year and a half ago). I honestly wanted HD-DVD to win overall, but if Blu-Ray won then oh well, I'd have to buy a Blu-Ray player and would have. Since entering this war, my view has since changed. I'll never support Blu-Ray, ever. I will buy every HD-DVD I want and whatever I can't get on HD-DVD I will have to look into other ways of getting them (SD, VOD, etc).
I used to think the 2 formats were near equal in many respects and they are, but where they are different is what makes me want HD-DVD to succeed.
Blu-Ray profiles... How many people know all about the Blu-Ray profiles? Will it affect you? WTH are Blu-Ray profiles?
Profile spec 1.0 = Can not and will not EVER play the 1.1 or 2.0 features. 1.1 and 2.0 Blu-Ray movies will still work on 1.0 players, but you will not be able to use the 1.1 or 2.0 features on the disc (they are invisible to 1.0 decks)
Profile spec 1.1 = This profile was only JUST released recently. Some of the players on the market are now 1.1. The profile 1.1 spec includes the addition of PiP (Picture in Picture). PiP sounds kind of stupid when you think about it with a movie, but here is how it works: You can watch 300 for instance with the directors commentary in PiP (as opposed to Voice over like SD-DVD has) and you can see how the stunts and other things were done in the small PiP and see how it comes out in the movie on the bigger pic. And this is also supposed to be the Blu-Ray complete spec. 2.0 is basically an optional spec.
Profile spec 2.0 = This profile was only just pre-viewed at CES 2008 (about a week or two ago). There are currently NO 2.0 players on the market yet. IIRC they are supposed to arrive in the Spring-Summer. This 2.0 profile includes the addition of web enabled interactive features. Basically with this you can download trailers, deleted scenes, and other things that go with the film. Many neat features can come out of the web interactivity, for instance the 5th Harry Potter movie you can do a community screening. A community screening is where you have 2 (or more) people hooked to an internet connection with their HD-DVD players and one user is the host and has control over the movie, the host can play, pause, etc the movie. The big thing with this feature is that the users in the community screening can talk to each other while watching the movie. This works whether your friend is 10 miles or half the world away.
Most all current StandAlone players (this doesn't include the PS3) on the market are 1.0 profile. The 1.0 players will never be able to be upgraded to 1.1 (not sure but it might be due to requiring 2 video decoders). So anyone that owns a 1.0 Blu-Ray player will never use the 1.1 or 2.0 features on that players. Same with 1.1 players, they will never be able to be upgraded to 2.0 spec. And as I said above, there are not even ANY 2.0 spec players on the market now. The ONLY player on the market right now that can be upgraded to 2.0 is the PS3. So if you want a Blu-Ray player that will do everything that Blu-Ray can ever do (at least according to 2.0 being the last spec) you can either buy a PS3 for $400 or wait 3-6 months for a 2.0 player to come out with an unknown price ATM.
EVERY HD-DVD player did and does all the above features (PiP and Web Enabled Interactivity) from day one. I only paid $100 for my player and it does all of those featues. As above, the only Blu-Ray player on the current market that will do all those features is the PS3 for $400. Currently the cheapest 1.1 player out (and not quite out yet) will be the Funai NB500 series for about $300. The first 2.0 player to hit market will doubtfully be under $500 for some time as well.
HD-DVD was far cheaper and with more features to boot. It was far closer to mass market adoption than Blu-Ray ever was. HD-DVD was a finished product out the door, Blu-Ray has only spent the past year and a half catching up. The winning HDM (High-Def Media) is supposed to be the format to replace DVD and should be mass market adopted, I just don't see most people spending that kind of money on a Blu-Ray player, sure they will come down in price, but will people even care about HDM anymore by that time (could be at least a year or two before we see even one Blu-Ray player for $100 or less).
Also HD-DVD is region free, Blu-Ray is not, which is also another huge reason I went with HD-DVD. I can import titles that I can't get here. For instance Crank is Blu-Ray exclusive here, there is a German release I can get, same for the Resident Evils and several other movies. I have found close to 50 titles already that I want to import whenever I can afford it. Also some of these titles aren't released here at all (Brotherhood of the Wolf, Das Perfume, etc).
Not trying to sway anyone to either format, do your research though and pick the one you feel deserves to win. And just remember that the format you do pick could be the ONLY format movies are released in in a few years from now. So many people are in a hurry to get the war over that nobody even cares what's left when the dust settles.
I will still continue to buy HD-DVDs and will never go Blu-Ray. Soon I'll even pickup a second HD-DVD player to have as a spare/backup for when my original dies. I'd still like to see HD-DVD to make a comeback, but consumer confidence (not mine, lol) is just way to low to be able to comeback IMO.
Post by: jesterrace777 on January 14, 2008, 05:16:00 PM
QUOTE(HackMy360 @ Jan 15 2008, 12:39 AM) 
BOTH HD DVD and Blu ray are dead! this format war has been going on for about 2 years already and the consumers have not decided on what format to adopt simply because the price. $300-$400 for a movie player c'mon guyz unless both of them start offering something that can compete with dvd people aren't going to go for it.. These are not the same times as before consumers do research and with the cost of living being so high most people cannot afford these things. Plus dvd is good enough for most people and anyone that wants to keep talkin BS that blu ray won well when I see blu ray replacing my dvd player then thats when i know they've won
Hence the reason why you can now purchase HD-DVD players for $150 (or in the case of Amazon and Tigerdirect $130). Until the remaining movie studios drop support HD-DVD isn't dead. Blu-Ray hasn't won the battle by a long-shot though. They still have some serious growing pains on the horizon this year with the release of their V1.1 and V2.0 spec discs (which a number of the standalones CANNOT be upgraded to). Most claim that only the special features will be affected by this but I would be greatly surprised if there weren't some general hardware playback issues. Only the PS3 is really set-up for these changes. Which brings up another point, ultimately standalone players have more mass market appeal than video-game consoles. Outside of the PS3 Blu-Ray hardware sales are absolutely pathetic. I concur though that neither will displace DVD although HD-DVD definitely gives the opportunity for a realistic supplement to your existing DVD library and even if it tanks you still have a solid up-conversion player for standard DVDs. All they really need to do is push prices below $100 on the A3 and they can definitely gain mass appeal if for no other reason than it's solid up-conversion standard DVD capabilities. Until all movie studios officially cease production of HD-DVD discs, the format is NOT dead. Furthermore Warner Bros. has left themselves a little bit of an escape clause since they will not officially stop producing movies on HD-DVD until May. This gives them some time to see what events will transpire and they can change their mind at the last minute. If you don't believe that, take a look at their recent history. They announced in mid-december that they had absolutely no plans of ditching either format and then 3 weeks later they claim to be going Blu-Ray excluisve. If these new sales get a number of the fence sitters to finally invest since the price point has almost reached the risk free status then you could well see a difference. Think of the hundreds of millions of DVD players of one form or another that are currently being sold or in use in households across the US. There are an estimated 3.5 million Blu-Ray players in households (including PS3 sales) and an estimated 1 million HD-DVD players in households in the US. The war is FAR from over when you put that kind of a spin on things and Blu-Rays V1.0, V1.1 and V2.0 spec and $300+ hardware price-points are going to make mass adoption very difficult. Furthermore it should be noted that the $300 standalones are all non-upgradable V1.0 spec units with very poor firmware update support. I do not envy the folks who purchased these units. If anyone would like I can post my reasons for why I believe HD-DVD is superior as a format for the consumer. Not necessarily stating that it's going to win, just why it is the better choice for the consumer.
Post by: slappynutz on January 14, 2008, 06:27:00 PM
Post by: ekruob on January 14, 2008, 06:10:00 PM
QUOTE(slappynutz @ Jan 15 2008, 11:27 AM)
Toshiba is slashing prices on their existing players and didn't announce any new ones at the biggest consumer electonics show of the year. It's called dumping stock. That Universal and Paramount reaffirmed "support" but not "exclusive support" is also telling. It's over.
Universal will never support Sony - too many previous court cases between them means there is still deep-seated animosity harboured.
HD DVD doesn't need exclusive support - it just needs support. If Toshiba buys support from Disney - it doesn't need to be exclusive support - then Blu-ray is doomed.
Post by: luther349 on January 14, 2008, 07:10:00 PM
this format war was abought money who could bribe the most movie studios into there format not abought what format was better. if movie studios where not so easily bribed sorry hdvd would win the movie market sense the format has more features. and blueray would dominate the pc storage area being it has more space.
now that hdvd got enough kicks in the balls from sony they relished going to be the cheaper format would destroy blueray. but its just to little to late the ships sinking and the rats have left.
This post has been edited by luther349: Jan 15 2008, 03:13 AM
Post by: joemm210 on January 14, 2008, 07:15:00 PM
Toshiba has to get enough players out so the sales of the current hd dvd movies out sells the blu-ray movies then we will see some more support for HD DVD. I think they have to lower the price to 99.99 but we will see if the new price helps any.
Toshiba is one of the top notebook makers, they should really put hd dvd drives in all new laptops and have higher models with hd dvd burners in them.
Post by: tummybanana on January 14, 2008, 07:17:00 PM
its can hardly be called a victory if they have to buy support (and that goes for paramount too)
ill stick with hd dvd right thru, and for those short sighted studios theres always sd dvd.....
ill be getting my a2 soon so im happy
Post by: trey85stang on January 14, 2008, 07:18:00 PM
Post by: elitegamer360 on January 14, 2008, 06:55:00 PM
way to go MS, F**k format wars F**k HD-DVD & BD, I hope they both go down for good now
..
Post by: Exobex on January 14, 2008, 07:15:00 PM
QUOTE
With DVD upconversion via the HDMI output, HD DVD players instantly make a movie lover's existing DVD library look better than ever.
Can't the Blu-ray players do this? That's a bit shit, isn't it?
QUOTE(joemm210 @ Jan 15 2008, 02:15 AM)
Toshiba is one of the top notebook makers, they should really put hd dvd drives in all new laptops and have higher models with hd dvd burners in them.
And offer the drives to the other big players (Dell, HP, etc.) as well. Penetrating the PC/notebook market would make things interesting.
Post by: slipstream on January 14, 2008, 07:59:00 PM
Post by: StrictPuppet on January 14, 2008, 07:52:00 PM
Post by: spamenigma on January 14, 2008, 09:02:00 PM
Blu-ray is dead.. long live HD-DVD (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(cos I have one!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Post by: Flagg3 on January 14, 2008, 10:26:00 PM
For the record, I did announce that this was inevitable back in 2006, and the reason then is the same reason now. HD-DVD simply could not survive if the PS3 shipped with a Blu-Ray player. In my opinion, Toshiba did everything right, and if given the choice, consumers most likely would have chosen HD-DVD over Blu-Ray. But the simple math of it was that Blu-Ray would always have a much larger installed userbase in the critical first years, and those numbers made it impossible for there ever to be any other outcome.
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=3303751
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=3305479
QUOTE(Flagg3 @ Mar 17 2006, 02:59 AM) 
Feel free to bookmark this page and quote me a year from now. If the PS3 is not significantly delayed, there is simply no possible way that HD-DVD could possibly win the format war, plain and simple. It's economics 101.
Flagg
Post by: slappynutz on January 14, 2008, 09:55:00 PM
QUOTE(ekruob @ Jan 15 2008, 01:46 AM)
Universal will never support Sony - too many previous court cases between them means there is still deep-seated animosity harboured.
HD DVD doesn't need exclusive support - it just needs support. If Toshiba buys support from Disney - it doesn't need to be exclusive support - then Blu-ray is doomed.
Univeral briefly supported even UMD when it seemed like the format had a future. They'll go where the money is. It's a public company that has to answer to shareholders ... they don't hold grudges as if they were a person.
Assuming you're referencing the Univeral V Betamax cast from the 80s. Funny, because most people who hate on Sony seem to gloss over the fact that back then, Sony was fighting for the consumer. That case established fair use rights and the right for consumers to make personal recordings. Regardless of what Sony may have done after that, they fought for a major, major consumer victory on that one.
And even with that bad blood with Universal it didn't stop Universal from supporting UMD, however briefly.
HD-DVD is tapped out. At this point retailers and the studios know that DVD sales are declining/levelling, and that a unified HD format is the only way there will be a lucrative disc-based model. They're pushing for one format.
If somehow Toshiba managed to convince Disney to offer support for HD-DVD, despite everything against that, all it would do is prolong the war even further. The only format that's doomed is HD-DVD. There's no way it can come back. If Toshiba buys support (highly unlikely) they'll just be dooming all HDM -- something studio shareholders and more importantly the retaillers that depend on customers coming in to buy discs simply won't let happen.
And even IF all that happened, the cat is out of the bag. Through CNN and MSNBC and FOX and national/local newspapers reporting on the death of HD-DVD the public perception is that it's dead. It's not coming back.
Post by: jesterrace777 on January 14, 2008, 11:26:00 PM
QUOTE(Exobex @ Jan 15 2008, 03:51 AM)
Can't the Blu-ray players do this? That's a bit shit, isn't it?
And offer the drives to the other big players (Dell, HP, etc.) as well. Penetrating the PC/notebook market would make things interesting.
The Blu-Ray players can up-convert but most who own both players will tell you that the Toshiba wins out in this department HANDS DOWN!!!!!!!!! The up-conversion on most Blu-Ray players is so-so at best. Blu-Ray definitely is not in the consumer's best interests. Anyone who has been backing up DVDs can vouch for that. Wasting millions of dollars on "hacker-proof" copy protections just to have them broken within a few weeks and then passing these costs on to the consumer. Furthermore the only hardware that is up to par and won't have issues with playback of up-coming Blu-Ray releases is the PS3, which at this point is $400 and is being sold at an average loss of $125 per unit to Sony. Sony really cannot afford to slash prices too much further and at some point there will be a peak of proliferation for the PS3 sales. Standalones as a whole have much more market potential as they can go to gamers and non-gamers alike and with attractive pricetags such as the A3. Furthermore it should be noted that in terms of disc sales it's not really a fair comparison given the number of BOGO sales (Buy One Get One Free) that Blu-Ray has had which are more about promoting the format rather than generating any real revenue.
Post by: Barnolde on January 14, 2008, 11:36:00 PM
QUOTE(elitegamer360 @ Jan 14 2008, 09:31 PM)
FTW, who needs HD-DVD or BD, MS will kill both with its HD-DL's.
way to go MS, F**k format wars F**k HD-DVD & BD, I hope they both go down for good now
..
Inferior quality, no ownership, takes a long time to download, no physical medium.
Digital downloads are completely niche.
Embrace Blu-ray.
Post by: kingofdaberbz on January 15, 2008, 02:28:00 AM
QUOTE(Barnolde @ Jan 15 2008, 02:12 AM) 
Inferior quality, no ownership, takes a long time to download, no physical medium.
Digital downloads are completely niche.
Embrace Blu-ray.
Inferior quality ? completely wrong
no ownership I download my movies on my pc so wrong again
long time to download? never knew two hours was long and will continue to get shorter,comcast coming out with 160mpbs so it'll be only 4 minutes
no storage medium? I've been buring my HD movies to blank dvds for the longest.
Also,I usually get my HD movies
weeks b4 their release date.
Support HD downloads it's the future
Post by: hawkolugy on January 15, 2008, 02:29:00 AM
QUOTE(kingofdaberbz @ Jan 15 2008, 10:28 AM)
Inferior quality ? completely wrong
no ownership I download my movies on my pc so wrong again
long time to download? never knew two hours was long and will continue to get shorter,comcast coming out with 160mpbs so it'll be only 4 minutes
no storage medium? I've been buring my HD movies to blank dvds for the longest.
Also,I usually get my HD movies
weeks b4 their release date.
Support HD downloads it's the future
1 I really doubt you are legally downloading content that is equal in quality to blu-ray(1080p).
2 True but not nearly as convenient or real feeling.
3 Dont hold your breath for that connection, but driving to buy a movie is also a pain.
4 Awesome you burn them to dvd's so you can play them on your...uh...computer, kind of pointless to me unless you have some elaborate setup at your house to stream HD, I do, but the average consumor won't.
Granted all of these can be fixed with time but for now...it is not better in any aspect except for not having to leave your house.
Post by: Flagg3 on January 15, 2008, 04:00:00 AM
The simple fact is that there will always, always be demand for physical media. Even if all of the many hurdles of electronic delivery are overcome, such as bandwidth and space limitations, DRM limitations and a simple and convenient way for the lay person to purchase and transport digital media as easily as you or I can, there will still always be huge demand for physical media.
Most people prefer to have a box, something to display and collect. Something to wrap as a present, and something to grab as an impulse purchase. I have absolutely no doubt that electronic delivery will grow steadily over the years, and it should eventually take it's rightful place as the #1 source of video rentals at some point in time - but make no mistake about it, all the wishful thinking in the world won't change the fact that movies on disc will be by far the top form of distribution for many years to come. Upconversion is nice, but just as there is demand for HD content on cable and satellite, there will also be more and more demand for HD content on disc.
Post by: jesterrace777 on January 15, 2008, 03:27:00 AM
Post by: bob_barker on January 15, 2008, 09:11:00 AM
It'll be a cold day in hell when I buy a Blu-Ray player. Alternatively, it'll be the day I can rip Blu-Ray movies to my puter and decrypt them.
Profile 1.1 and higher players REQUIRE an internet connection. I'll be damned if I'm going to buy a DVD only to have my player phone Sony each time and ask permission to play the disc I just paid 30 bucks for.
HD-DVD could have kept a foothold if they had subsidized disc costs as heavily as Sony did. Consumers buy on price more than anything. Having a format that is "cheaper" to manufacture doesn't mean anything when the discs cost more than the competitor's product.
Also, this big price cut means little when Blu-Ray is doing something similar.
Sony execs: go die in a fire, please.
Post by: Havok on January 15, 2008, 09:14:00 AM
QUOTE(bob_barker @ Jan 15 2008, 11:11 AM)
Profile 1.1 and higher players REQUIRE an internet connection. I'll be damned if I'm going to buy a DVD only to have my player phone Sony each time and ask permission to play the disc I just paid 30 bucks for.
Umm... are you just making up stuff? How is a internet connect required for most users?http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/
1.11 Will Blu-ray require an Internet connection?
No, you will not need an Internet connection for basic playback of Blu-ray movies. The Internet connection will only be needed for value-added features such as downloading new extras, watching recent movie trailers, web browsing, etc. It will also be required to authorize managed copies of Blu-ray movies that can be transferred over a home network.
Post by: feflicker on January 15, 2008, 02:46:00 PM
Post by: Flagg3 on January 15, 2008, 03:24:00 PM
QUOTE(feflicker @ Jan 15 2008, 04:46 PM)
@cerealkillajme, PERFECT POST. I really don't understand how BRD is winning. It is defying the laws of capitalism when you think about it...
No it doesn't. As I've said numerous times, Blu-Ray won for one reason and one reason only: Installed user base. Regardless of which player sold more standalone players, or which one was technically better, the simple fact is that over 9 million people currently have Blu-Ray disc players in their homes, compared to just under 1 million HD-DVD players.
Those people may not have specifically 'chosen' Blu-Ray over HD-DVD, but they have a high definition disc player, and that is the format that they will use. That's why Blu-Ray discs outsell HD-DVD discs, and why they will continue to outsell them. Sony snuck Blu-Ray into the living room, and the choice was made for those people.
Conspiracy theories aside, the studio's simply could not ignore the numbers. 9 million installed userbase, and over 20 million in 2008. HD-DVD would be lucky to have 3 million in that time frame, which simply is nowhere near enough to effectively compete.
If it weren't for the PS3 factor, Blu-Ray would be the one on life support now, instead of the other way around, no question.
Post by: HolySmoke on January 15, 2008, 03:56:00 PM
HDTVs and hi-def players are still too niche items to be called mass market and, frankly, I think most people still aren't even aware of them.
Post by: HSDEMONZ on January 15, 2008, 04:10:00 PM
I think it's time for them to switch gears, and see that they have other options..
\/
Post by: feflicker on January 15, 2008, 04:16:00 PM
The point is that the benefits of HD-DVD STILL outweigh the relatively small install-base (compared to DVD, VHS). 9 Million isn't that many people. We are still in the infancy of the next-gen DVD rollout. Most of these 9 million people are videophiles and PS3 owners!
HD-DVD is clearly a WIN/WIN for consumers. That is why they are going to fight until the end. If HD-DVD wasn't the best option for consumers, they would fold up shop right now. They aren't staying in the game just because of "spite".
If you want reasonable prices on players, discs, and future recordable discs, you'll back HD-DVD. It's that simple... If you don't want that, then just buy BRD because you already have a PS3 and let's pay all this extra overhead we are putting on the content providers for the next few years
Post by: bucko on January 15, 2008, 04:30:00 PM
QUOTE(Flagg3 @ Jan 15 2008, 05:26 AM)
Ironic how all of those who argued with my statements that HD-DVD couldn't win the format war are suddenly silent, especially those that were arguing as recently as a month ago.
For the record, I did announce that this was inevitable back in 2006, and the reason then is the same reason now. HD-DVD simply could not survive if the PS3 shipped with a Blu-Ray player. In my opinion, Toshiba did everything right, and if given the choice, consumers most likely would have chosen HD-DVD over Blu-Ray. But the simple math of it was that Blu-Ray would always have a much larger installed userbase in the critical first years, and those numbers made it impossible for there ever to be any other outcome.
http://forums.xbox-s...&...t&p=3303751
http://forums.xbox-s...&...t&p=3305479
lol some people are counting there chickens to soon, it's not over yet, when you can't buy players and movies from shops I'm afraid that's when it's over. However you can still walk into a store and buy a HD-DVD player and movies. For sure some people will buy a PS3 for Blu-Ray movies but I doubt the average joe even knows about it, hell nearly all my friends have an SDTV and I doubt they have ever used the Blu-Ray feature for movies.
I think with HD-DVD releasing really cheap players you will soon see some great deals with cheap HDTV's and HD-DVD players consumers will pick them up a treat. Would a cheap HDTV and Blu-Ray player be an eye catcher to people in TV shops, no because it will be expensive. I still think HD-DVD has the edge in price and openness. I just wish people would stop saying it's dead because it is not!
Post by: elitegamer360 on January 15, 2008, 06:13:00 PM
QUOTE(Barnolde @ Jan 15 2008, 07:12 AM)
Inferior quality, no ownership, takes a long time to download, no physical medium.
Digital downloads are completely niche.
Embrace Blu-ray.
lol I wasn't joking and here's a similar news about Apple's TV might be killing both formats, so MS can do with the 360... DOWN to HD-DVD and BD
I under stand the buying point, but I can tell you the future of buying actual discs looks grim.
Edit: forgot to paste the link lol.
http://popsci.typepa...e-wins-the.html
Post by: Flagg3 on January 15, 2008, 07:02:00 PM
QUOTE(feflicker @ Jan 15 2008, 06:52 PM)
If you want reasonable prices on players, discs, and future recordable discs, you'll back HD-DVD. It's that simple... If you don't want that, then just buy BRD because you already have a PS3 and let's pay all this extra overhead we are putting on the content providers for the next few years
For the record, I own 5 original Xbox's, 4 Xbox 360s with an HD-DVD addon, and only 1 PS3 and 1 Wii. My opinion has nothing to do with any real or perceived bias, it's simply based on reality.
QUOTE(bucko @ Jan 15 2008, 07:06 PM)
lol some people are counting there chickens to soon, it's not over yet, when you can't buy players and movies from shops I'm afraid that's when it's over. However you can still walk into a store and buy a HD-DVD player and movies. For sure some people will buy a PS3 for Blu-Ray movies but I doubt the average joe even knows about it, hell nearly all my friends have an SDTV and I doubt they have ever used the Blu-Ray feature for movies.
I think with HD-DVD releasing really cheap players you will soon see some great deals with cheap HDTV's and HD-DVD players consumers will pick them up a treat. Would a cheap HDTV and Blu-Ray player be an eye catcher to people in TV shops, no because it will be expensive. I still think HD-DVD has the edge in price and openness. I just wish people would stop saying it's dead because it is not!
It's basically over. Yes, you can still buy players, but without content, that won't do much good. There is simply no conceivable way for HD-DVD to recover. Even if they somehow managed to liquidate 5 million HD-DVD players this year, the studios will not return. It simply isn't in their best interest to keep the market fractured, and with Blu-ray here to stay, HD-DVD has become the unfortunate victim. (For the record, I prefer HD-DVD. It clearly would have won the format war if not for the PS3)
Post by: FCTE on January 15, 2008, 07:32:00 PM
HD DVD will make great cheap large optical storage disks to replace CD and DVD, but as far as movies go they are done. They need to stop dragging this out so we can have one format and other consumers will not be afraid to jump to HD discs.
Besides the real war is on after Blu-ray wins, Blu-ray vs. DVD.
Digital downloads will be the future, but not until broadband is everywhere and the internet is capable of handling HD traffic, that's to say not very soon.
Also, video on demand and HD downloads on the Xbox are loss quality vs. the quality of HD discs.
QUOTE(bucko @ Jan 15 2008, 06:06 PM)
Would a cheap HDTV and Blu-Ray player be an eye catcher to people in TV shops, no because it will be expensive.
Well in the US our specialty home theater shops don't even carry HD DVD, they all push Blu-ray.
Tech heads are the ones driving the technology at this point, not the average consumer. Cheaper is sometimes viewed as inferior with a huge price gap between competitors. HD DVD is just not as well known as Blu-ray.
The real problem is that HD DVD didn't have any advertising at all. I see commercials for Blu-ray all the time, I haven't seen anything for HD DVD. Toshiba blew it.
Post by: joemm210 on January 15, 2008, 08:53:00 PM
Its wishful thinking but you never know.
Post by: NoMention on January 15, 2008, 09:05:00 PM
QUOTE(joemm210 @ Jan 16 2008, 04:53 AM)
they said they didnt take any money to go blu-ray only
That is about the funniest thing I've read. They didn't take any money... sure they didn't.
http://formatwarcent...n-from-the-bda/
And there are plenty of other articles claiming the same. Sure, it could all be one big "rumor" but I highly doubt it.
HD-DVD is not dead. All the people that say the PS3 installed base is the cause of HD-DVD demise, I have only 1 thing to say to you. WAL-MART. Yes, that is correct. 9 million PS3 is nothing. How many cheapo APEX DVD players from WAL-MART do you think are in people's homes. The average consumer is not an audio/videophile. If Toshiba comes out with a $100 HD-DVD player, the average Joe will walk into WAL-MART and see that it plays HD movies on his HDTV. He will then see the Blu-Ray player for way more. Which will common-man Joe pick? Clearly not the expensive one.
The key to success will be the hardware. But how do you get it into people's homes? Make it cheap. Stop thinking that the majority of the population fits in the middle or upper class and can spend hundreds on this technology. If that were the case, we wouldn't have any problem jumping over to only HDTV right now. The truth is that a very large percentage of the population cannot afford a fancy new $1000 tv. In fact, the average person today can probably not afford either HD-DVD or BluRay. However, if Toshiba makes the players really affordable and ceases to produce SD-DVD players, then it is clear which one our good friend Joe will buy. If Sony made Blu-Ray players $100, the same would apply. However I just don't see that happening in this lifetime.
It will all come done to price. How much is Joe Schmoe willing to pay?
Post by: iam on January 15, 2008, 10:42:00 PM
The porn industry has chosen blu-ray... HD-DVD is history, stop dreaming guys, they lost!
http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-porn?=35064
Post by: mc_365 on January 15, 2008, 11:28:00 PM
I believe HD-DVD to be the better product offering between the two, up till date.
Besides the disc space and the uncompressed audio, why are the BRD supporters in favor of BRD.
What I mean given the current feature set, price and real world use HD-DVD is better, or have I missed something?
For 90% or more of potential buyers, the extras (any thing besides movie playback) are just words on the box, things they will never use.
Ask the average Joe about 720P, 1080i, 1080P, 60Hz, 24fps, 16:9, 3:2 pull down, DTS, TrueHD, DD, THX, PCM, HDMI 1.3, ect. ect. ect.....
Toshiba if they are serious about winning, needs to accept the fact that they're in the coffin, and they have 1 second before the nail goes in.
They need to jump up with speed and vigor, and go all out.
Fuck buying exclusivity, drop the royalty fees on disc until 2010 and subsidise any studio that wants to press HD on a big title. Basically making it virtually no more expensive to press an HD-DVD than it is to press a DVD. In essence replace the DVD with a Hybrid disc for the same price at retail.
Simple adv campaign ran aggressively "The same picture quality as BRD but Less expensive + other features not offered by every BRD Player"
Drop the royalties on hardware until 2009 and open up the door for other manufacturers to make inexpensive players.
Make a $75 xbox add on.
The $150 budget model is priced fairly and should be promoted heavily.
I'll continue to wait cuase I don't really buy movies, I watch them on cable and satelite in HD and once I seen it I really don't need to see it again. I guess some people like to have them around to pop in for the guests. But I don't even on a DVD player anymore cuase it was getting old and dusty.
I don't believe the Sony Product merrits the price and I am leary of buying into a sony controled format.
But if I can get an x2 Toshiba for $175, I might jump on it just for the available movies and DVD playback, it would be a better alternative to buying a cheap DVD or an expensive BRD player.
Post by: jesterrace777 on January 15, 2008, 11:34:00 PM
http://www.nmeinc.com/
Post by: crystalx3d on January 16, 2008, 01:59:00 AM
QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 05:27 PM)
Also HD-DVD is region free, Blu-Ray is not, which is also another huge reason I went with HD-DVD. I can import titles that I can't get here. For instance Crank is Blu-Ray exclusive here, there is a German release I can get, same for the Resident Evils and several other movies. I have found close to 50 titles already that I want to import whenever I can afford it. Also some of these titles aren't released here at all (Brotherhood of the Wolf, Das Perfume, etc).
This is one of the reasons why HD-DVD is doomed. Not because consumers dislike region-free, consumers love freedom. Movie studios on the other hand love control and many aren't willing to give up that region control. Why would consumers buy movies in the U.S. when they can get the same region-free movie over seas for cheaper? This means less money for studios.
Also, my personal theory is that HD-DVD is suffering because no one likes saying "HD-DVD". Heck, my dad can't even pronounce "DVD" correctly much less the "HD" part. It just doesn't roll off the tongue like "BluRay". There you have it folks: five syllables vs two syllables. Two syllables wins. Seriously, if you had absolutely no prior knowledge of the formats and their features besides just their names alone, which one sounds more appealing? HD-DVD or BluRay? Now consider that there's a disgustingly large number of American consumers who's buying habbits are as shallow as product name and logo design, and voila!
Post by: ConteZero76 on January 16, 2008, 05:13:00 AM
BD won because it was superior, phisically superior (as 25 > 15, always) and was upgradeable (you know, profiles aren't actually that bad).
It's better as a backup media, has the industry (WB, Sony, Disney and so on) and was really supprted (not just "I'd add an add on player").
Codec wise it offer the same flavors HD-DVD offer, only with a better bitrates.
Now go and cry out loud, but facts are facts.
Post by: bob_barker on January 16, 2008, 07:04:00 AM
QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Jan 16 2008, 01:13 PM)
Boys, you're talking like some anonymous Betamax lover.
BD won because it was superior, phisically superior (as 25 > 15, always) and was upgradeable (you know, profiles aren't actually that bad).
It's better as a backup media, has the industry (WB, Sony, Disney and so on) and was really supprted (not just "I'd add an add on player").
Codec wise it offer the same flavors HD-DVD offer, only with a better bitrates.
Now go and cry out loud, but facts are facts.
Upgradeable, if your player is upgradeable... I fail to see the advantage there.
BluRay is updating to get features that have ALREADY BEEN RATIFIED AND ARE IN THE FINAL HDDVD SPEC. That's right, all HDDVD titles have HDi and players can access that content. You dont have to worry about buying a player only to find out it wont play the latest content.
"Facts" aren't facts.
The day I buy a Blu Ray disc is the day I can pirate it.
Post by: zX_Storm on January 16, 2008, 08:21:00 AM
QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 08:27 PM)
Most all current StandAlone players (this doesn't include the PS3) on the market are 1.0 profile. The 1.0 players will never be able to be upgraded to 1.1 (not sure but it might be due to requiring 2 video decoders). So anyone that owns a 1.0 Blu-Ray player will never use the 1.1 or 2.0 features on that players. Same with 1.1 players, they will never be able to be upgraded to 2.0 spec. And as I said above, there are not even ANY 2.0 spec players on the market now. The ONLY player on the market right now that can be upgraded to 2.0 is the PS3. So if you want a Blu-Ray player that will do everything that Blu-Ray can ever do (at least according to 2.0 being the last spec) you can either buy a PS3 for $400 or wait 3-6 months for a 2.0 player to come out with an unknown price ATM.
Have a link somewhere that they can't be upgraded? That's pretty ridiculous. I'm sure they can upgrade and disable features that the player itself is not capable of (I guess that means PIP won't work in computers too?)
QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 08:27 PM)
EVERY HD-DVD player did and does all the above features (PiP and Web Enabled Interactivity) from day one. I only paid $100 for my player and it does all of those featues.
I keep hearing people say they bought their HD-DVD players for $100 (on sale..), but isn't that the one that does not support 1080p? I see absolutely no need to buy any HD/BD players/movies if you don't have 1080p (or buying a player that supports 1080p for a future TV). My X360 upscales SD-DVD so well on my 1080p, that the difference between 1080i HD/BD and the upscaled SD-DVD is very minimal.
QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 08:27 PM)
As above, the only Blu-Ray player on the current market that will do all those features is the PS3 for $400. Currently the cheapest 1.1 player out (and not quite out yet) will be the Funai NB500 series for about $300. The first 2.0 player to hit market will doubtfully be under $500 for some time as well.
If the PS3 costs $400 and can do 2.0 profile.. why don't companies model their players after the PS3? Sony obviously is doing something right. I don't see why companies couldn't do something similar, strip out the cell and put some intel/ibm/amd chip in there to suffice. The GFX card handles most of it anyways.
QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 08:27 PM)
HD-DVD was far cheaper and with more features to boot. It was far closer to mass market adoption than Blu-Ray ever was. HD-DVD was a finished product out the door, Blu-Ray has only spent the past year and a half catching up. The winning HDM (High-Def Media) is supposed to be the format to replace DVD and should be mass market adopted, I just don't see most people spending that kind of money on a Blu-Ray player, sure they will come down in price, but will people even care about HDM anymore by that time (could be at least a year or two before we see even one Blu-Ray player for $100 or less).
Also HD-DVD is region free, Blu-Ray is not, which is also another huge reason I went with HD-DVD. I can import titles that I can't get here. For instance Crank is Blu-Ray exclusive here, there is a German release I can get, same for the Resident Evils and several other movies. I have found close to 50 titles already that I want to import whenever I can afford it. Also some of these titles aren't released here at all (Brotherhood of the Wolf, Das Perfume, etc).
Also HD-DVD is region free, Blu-Ray is not, which is also another huge reason I went with HD-DVD. I can import titles that I can't get here. For instance Crank is Blu-Ray exclusive here, there is a German release I can get, same for the Resident Evils and several other movies. I have found close to 50 titles already that I want to import whenever I can afford it. Also some of these titles aren't released here at all (Brotherhood of the Wolf, Das Perfume, etc).
It would appear so, however HD-DVD was never "closer" to mass market adoption than BD. They have been just about EVEN the entire life of the format war. Also, based on the title of this article that might help support your statement, "Strong Q4 Sales". People from CES have posted interviews from Toshiba with exact figures. To be accurate, out of HD players (both HD-DVD and BD), HD-DVD only sold 49%. What they failed to mention is that BD did sell the other 51%, these figures do NOT include the PS3 sales either. That was Q4 last year, including all of holiday sales. Retail companies are also reporting not quite 50%, but quite a few % of HD-DVD players are being brought back due to customer's fav movies on BR. These figures aren't in Q4 sales as the returns happened in Q1.
QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 14 2008, 08:27 PM)
Not trying to sway anyone to either format, do your research though and pick the one you feel deserves to win. And just remember that the format you do pick could be the ONLY format movies are released in in a few years from now. So many people are in a hurry to get the war over that nobody even cares what's left when the dust settles.
I will still continue to buy HD-DVDs and will never go Blu-Ray. Soon I'll even pickup a second HD-DVD player to have as a spare/backup for when my original dies. I'd still like to see HD-DVD to make a comeback, but consumer confidence (not mine, lol) is just way to low to be able to comeback IMO.
I will still continue to buy HD-DVDs and will never go Blu-Ray. Soon I'll even pickup a second HD-DVD player to have as a spare/backup for when my original dies. I'd still like to see HD-DVD to make a comeback, but consumer confidence (not mine, lol) is just way to low to be able to comeback IMO.
I like your statements, very well educated. I'm usually interested in tech specs, like you (the profiling, etc.), but the marketing is probably what most of the industry is looking at, which is what I looked at. I almost bought the HD-DVD addon for my X360 5 days before CES. Decided to wait until after CES to see what Toshiba might be announcing. I really only wanted the HD-DVD stuff for the free movies, and Transformers (can't believe Michael Bay couldn't get it on BD). But with all this commotion, I'm sure Transformers will eventually see it's way to BD now. It would be stupid not to.
Anyways, thanks for the read, cereal
Will definitely look into the profiling stuff before making my decision.Post by: cerealkillajme on January 16, 2008, 09:42:00 AM
QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Jan 16 2008, 10:57 AM)
Wow! Didn't know all of that about Blu-ray. But let me ask some things, you seem pretty knowledgeable about both.
Have a link somewhere that they can't be upgraded? That's pretty ridiculous. I'm sure they can upgrade and disable features that the player itself is not capable of (I guess that means PIP won't work in computers too?)
I keep hearing people say they bought their HD-DVD players for $100 (on sale..), but isn't that the one that does not support 1080p? I see absolutely no need to buy any HD/BD players/movies if you don't have 1080p (or buying a player that supports 1080p for a future TV). My X360 upscales SD-DVD so well on my 1080p, that the difference between 1080i HD/BD and the upscaled SD-DVD is very minimal.
If the PS3 costs $400 and can do 2.0 profile.. why don't companies model their players after the PS3? Sony obviously is doing something right. I don't see why companies couldn't do something similar, strip out the cell and put some intel/ibm/amd chip in there to suffice. The GFX card handles most of it anyways.
It would appear so, however HD-DVD was never "closer" to mass market adoption than BD. They have been just about EVEN the entire life of the format war. Also, based on the title of this article that might help support your statement, "Strong Q4 Sales". People from CES have posted interviews from Toshiba with exact figures. To be accurate, out of HD players (both HD-DVD and BD), HD-DVD only sold 49%. What they failed to mention is that BD did sell the other 51%, these figures do NOT include the PS3 sales either. That was Q4 last year, including all of holiday sales. Retail companies are also reporting not quite 50%, but quite a few % of HD-DVD players are being brought back due to customer's fav movies on BR. These figures aren't in Q4 sales as the returns happened in Q1.
I like your statements, very well educated. I'm usually interested in tech specs, like you (the profiling, etc.), but the marketing is probably what most of the industry is looking at, which is what I looked at. I almost bought the HD-DVD addon for my X360 5 days before CES. Decided to wait until after CES to see what Toshiba might be announcing. I really only wanted the HD-DVD stuff for the free movies, and Transformers (can't believe Michael Bay couldn't get it on BD). But with all this commotion, I'm sure Transformers will eventually see it's way to BD now. It would be stupid not to.
Anyways, thanks for the read, cereal
Will definitely look into the profiling stuff before making my decision.Will take me a while to respond to all of these as I'm at work, but I'll start.
Here is an article that explains about the Blu-Ray profiles, and it's from the BBC News, so it's legit, http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/7187179.stm
And here is another one, http://www.betanews....into/1199841379
That is true that the players that hit $100 in November were limited to 1080i output. The cheapest 1080p HD-DVD player is currently the A30 for $199. I'm rather happy Toshiba does offer 1080i players myself. Most still don't have an HDTV even yet, and for those that do I'd say probably 50% don't have a TV that supports 1080p. Personally I have a 720p/1080i projector and a 720p/1080i HDTV, so to me there was no point at all in getting a 1080p player. Eventually I will pick one up for whenever I do upgrade to a 1080p display.
I can't really say why other members of the BDA aren't putting out cheaper and better featured players. But I will speculate that's it probably due to the PS3's cost subsidizing. The PS3 is competing in 2 markets right now, gaming as well as Blu-Ray. We know Sony loses money on every PS3 sold, so IMO if they don't start getting more game sales to makeup for the loses, they won't be able to sustain the PS3 model much longer. I'm not trying to make a point that the PS3 doesn't have games, but that they need to get more games sold to start bringing in profits. If they lost $200 on every unit sold and only have made $50-100 back off of each owner then they can't continue going down this road. IMO if Blu-Ray doesn't win this format war (which it probably will at this point) Sony will be in trouble for all the money they put into the PS3.
With HD-DVD being closer to mass market adoption, what I meant was more that their pricing is closer to what your average consumer will pay, as well as it being a complete and ready format from day one (and not having to go back and add things). I agree both sold nearly the same in the past though (with Blu-Ray selling more last year at about 60:40 or so in disc sales).
True the Blu-Ray standalones did out-sell HD-DVD standalones this holiday. But every one of those players that sold over the season are all profile 1.0 and had their prices dropped a little. Also I won't argue that many have returned HD-DVD players after the holiday, but most were due to the Warner decision, I personally haven't seen one post from anyone that returned one due to content availibility. HD-DVD still does have lots of great exclusives (Matrix, Batman Begins, Bourne Trilogy, Transformers, Shrek 3, Zodiac, etc.).
Post by: zX_Storm on January 16, 2008, 12:16:00 PM
QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Jan 16 2008, 01:18 PM)
Will take me a while to respond to all of these as I'm at work, but I'll start.
Here is an article that explains about the Blu-Ray profiles, and it's from the BBC News, so it's legit, http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/7187179.stm
And here is another one, http://www.betanews....into/1199841379
That is true that the players that hit $100 in November were limited to 1080i output. The cheapest 1080p HD-DVD player is currently the A30 for $199. I'm rather happy Toshiba does offer 1080i players myself. Most still don't have an HDTV even yet, and for those that do I'd say probably 50% don't have a TV that supports 1080p. Personally I have a 720p/1080i projector and a 720p/1080i HDTV, so to me there was no point at all in getting a 1080p player. Eventually I will pick one up for whenever I do upgrade to a 1080p display.
I can't really say why other members of the BDA aren't putting out cheaper and better featured players. But I will speculate that's it probably due to the PS3's cost subsidizing. The PS3 is competing in 2 markets right now, gaming as well as Blu-Ray. We know Sony loses money on every PS3 sold, so IMO if they don't start getting more game sales to makeup for the loses, they won't be able to sustain the PS3 model much longer. I'm not trying to make a point that the PS3 doesn't have games, but that they need to get more games sold to start bringing in profits. If they lost $200 on every unit sold and only have made $50-100 back off of each owner then they can't continue going down this road. IMO if Blu-Ray doesn't win this format war (which it probably will at this point) Sony will be in trouble for all the money they put into the PS3.
With HD-DVD being closer to mass market adoption, what I meant was more that their pricing is closer to what your average consumer will pay, as well as it being a complete and ready format from day one (and not having to go back and add things). I agree both sold nearly the same in the past though (with Blu-Ray selling more last year at about 60:40 or so in disc sales).
True the Blu-Ray standalones did out-sell HD-DVD standalones this holiday. But every one of those players that sold over the season are all profile 1.0 and had their prices dropped a little. Also I won't argue that many have returned HD-DVD players after the holiday, but most were due to the Warner decision, I personally haven't seen one post from anyone that returned one due to content availibility. HD-DVD still does have lots of great exclusives (Matrix, Batman Begins, Bourne Trilogy, Transformers, Shrek 3, Zodiac, etc.).
Thanks for the reply
I'm at work too, hah.After I wrote the mass market adoption inquiry, I figured you meant pricing, but didn't bother removing it, as it was still important information. HD-DVD is definitely cheaper, that's for sure. I believe the general American population would definitely want something that's cheaper. However you have to think of who is getting HDTV's. It's obviously people who can afford to spend some money on it, or have said. But this works also for HD-DVD.
A friend of mine saved money for a couple months to get an amazing 42" 1080p HDTV, but wasn't bothered to get any HD players. A different friend makes a bit more money than him, and bought a 1080i HDTV and bought the X360 HD-DVD addon. Sure, companies and analysts could come up with information on each format, and how the "general population" can afford such and such, or doesn't want to spend such and such money on entertainment (which most analysts are saying this).
The marketing side of this format war is just plain stupid IMO. I can almost guarantee people who love MS/X360 (or simply Sony haters) probably have bought an HD-DVD player due to MS marketing of it. The same goes with Sony fans. Analysts can't compare marketing of this new generation of entertainment to VHS/Betamax and so forth. Culture and lifestyles have changed too much to just say this is a repeat. The history of people supporting these companies have been "fighting" for years. Since MS released it's Xbox in 2001, we've had people fight Sony vs. Microsoft. The format war just took a more "serious" fight as it extended throughout all of entertainment and not just gaming (hah, it's not hurting Nintendo at all, being a full-fledged gaming company).
The holiday 1.0 profiling sales: sucks. hah! Maybe I'm just naive or want to look at it positively, but I still believe that companies would allow firmware or some other upgrade to do newer profiles (sort of like new X360 games require updates).
< 50% adoption of HDTV users buying 1080p: totally agree. Probably 3/4 of my co-workers have HDTV's, and only 1/5 of those have 1080p IIRC. I just figured if people were going to spend the money, than why not buy a 1080p player as the prices come down, they will eventually pick up one of those TVs, IMO.
Exclusives: I hate exclusivity, but that's the only way our economy can function properly. What drew me to wanting that HD-DVD addon was the Bourne Trilogy and Transformers. So yes, in fact, I don't know of anybody who brought back any HD-DVD players from Christmas either. However, using that knowledge, I don't know of any of my friends or co-workers who got an HD-DVD OR BD player. Most of them bought pre-Christmas, or therefore since CES.
1080i Player: Wait, weren't people saying that the 1080p BD player did NOT support 1080i? It only has 720p and 1080p? (ouch!) Or something like, 480i/p, and 1080i/p and NO 720p? I remember reading some reviews about them, but I can't recall.
Post by: zX_Storm on January 16, 2008, 01:02:00 PM
I definitely have to point out the quote:
"The guys that bought the first Blu-ray players are the guys who bought the first laser discs. They know the risks."
It's very true. Look at people who bought the first X360. They didn't get the HDMI connectors (right?). Other products are just as similar. As production goes on, enhancements can be added, and early adopters get the boot. This doesn't mean early adopters are stuck in the water (almost like the iPhone before Apple gave us money back -- I got $200 back though, woo!). But if they release a new iPhone with GPS, G3, etc. etc. that doesn't help us, the early adopters. It's all the same, really. I'm glad that the Blu-ray camp is adding it now just as HD is starting to become mainstream and the format war appears to be ending. MUCH better now than if they waited another year.
Post by: vacsed on January 16, 2008, 01:53:00 PM
QUOTE(Flagg3 @ Jan 15 2008, 11:24 PM)
No it doesn't. As I've said numerous times, Blu-Ray won for one reason and one reason only: Installed user base. Regardless of which player sold more standalone players, or which one was technically better, the simple fact is that over 9 million people currently have Blu-Ray disc players in their homes, compared to just under 1 million HD-DVD players.
Well, first of all, Bluray still has NOT won, at least not yet. Secondly, if Bluray wins some day later, the reason will not have been the number of BD players on the market in 2007 but because of better studio support.
Basically you even can't say that there are 9 million BD players out there because out of those 9 millions, 7.2 are PS3s of which only a really small minority is used to watch BD movies. In fact the attach rate of those 9 millions players is currently so ridiculously low, that I don't think any studios are using that 9 million number as an argument to prefer Bluray over HD-DVD.
Warner initially didn't want to support Bluray because for obvious reasons. First of all there is a problem with the name "bluray". The industry knows that it is a pain in the ass to get the general public aware of a completely new technology using a completely new name. This might sound neglectable to some people but brand recognition is a key factor in making a new technology successful. HD-DVD was the clear winner, because people know what DVD is and most even now know what HD means. The name "HD-DVD" is perfect.
Then there is a problem with the manufacturing costs of BD players and discs. Warner and any other studio knows this, if they can choose to sell 1 million BDs or 1 million HD-DVDs, they certainly will choose HD-DVD because of the higher profit margins.
Not forgetting that the BD specification is yet not finished which will further confuse the average consumer. Average Joe does not know what profile 1.0, 1.1 or 2.0 means and so he will not know what to buy or gets fooled into buying an older, cheaper players only to find out later on that he got screwed and can't used the latest BD features. This is a big problem for the mass-market adoption of HD players and studios are not happy with it.
So how on earth is Bluray now in the better position? That's quite easy to understand if you know that DVD sales are since 1-2 years constantly decreasing. Studios are looking for the next DVD because they want to make big money and fast. Fast is the key word because Studios want ONE format as soon as possible to create a new billion dollar market and they have to choose sides. Warner choose Bluray even though they have been in serious negotiations to go HD-DVD exclusive because Fox was bribed by Sony to go blue. Warner had to follow suit because they need a new standard fast to make up for the decreasing DVD sales and this can only be done by having most major studios supporting one format.
In the end, this had nothing to do with the number of BD players on the market but all about studio trying to kill one format ASAP and the fate choose HD-DVD because of a sneaky intervention by Sony/BDA... and this at the very, very last moment on the 4th of January 2008. The day before the world was still destined to go red.
But the industry has now a new problem because they have to deal with much higher costs and less profit and a new (HD) market which will not bring the required cash flow till 3-4 years from now at the earliest. The HD market will not be ready this year and not the next one.
Post by: Flagg3 on January 16, 2008, 02:59:00 PM
QUOTE(NoMention @ Jan 15 2008, 11:41 PM)
That is about the funniest thing I've read. They didn't take any money... sure they didn't.
http://formatwarcent...n-from-the-bda/
And there are plenty of other articles claiming the same. Sure, it could all be one big "rumor" but I highly doubt it.
I love conspiracy theories.
You do realize that these are PUBLICLY owned companies, right? And that they cannot just 'take payoffs' without reporting them? Do you honestly suppose that there are guys twirling their mustaches in some backroom with bundles of cash on the tables? The executives of these companies would be subject to arrest if they did not clearly report any direct income if they received it from Sony. That's why we were able to find out how much Toshiba paid Paramount and Dreamworks. As publicly owned companies they were required to disclose it.
Now, I am sure that concessions were made somewhere, it goes without saying that both sides would have been willing to negotiate deals. I would expect that Sony offered discounts and other incentives, but nothing that would amount to an absurd $500 million payoff, and certainly nothing that Toshiba wouldn't have offered as well.
Post by: Flagg3 on January 16, 2008, 03:10:00 PM
QUOTE(NoMention @ Jan 15 2008, 11:41 PM)
HD-DVD is not dead. All the people that say the PS3 installed base is the cause of HD-DVD demise, I have only 1 thing to say to you. WAL-MART. Yes, that is correct. 9 million PS3 is nothing. How many cheapo APEX DVD players from WAL-MART do you think are in people's homes. The average consumer is not an audio/videophile. If Toshiba comes out with a $100 HD-DVD player, the average Joe will walk into WAL-MART and see that it plays HD movies on his HDTV. He will then see the Blu-Ray player for way more. Which will common-man Joe pick? Clearly not the expensive one...
...It will all come done to price. How much is Joe Schmoe willing to pay?
Wow, you've hit the nail on the head again!
$100 retail price, genius!
Oh wait, the manufacturing cost of an HD-DVD player is over $200? But... How did they afford to sell one for $99 over Christmas? Simply put, it was sold as a 'loss leader' sold in limited quantities to generate buzz.
Toshiba and Sony would both love to sell High definition players at under $100. This may surprise you, but they are well aware that that is the price barrier that real sales volume starts at. If either one could conceivably sell the player below $100 without going bankrupt, they certainly would.
Post by: Flagg3 on January 16, 2008, 03:25:00 PM
QUOTE(vacsed @ Jan 16 2008, 03:53 PM)
Well, first of all, Bluray still has NOT won, at least not yet. Secondly, if Bluray wins some day later, the reason will not have been the number of BD players on the market in 2007 but because of better studio support.
Basically you even can't say that there are 9 million BD players out there because out of those 9 millions, 7.2 are PS3s of which only a really small minority is used to watch BD movies. In fact the attach rate of those 9 millions players is currently so ridiculously low, that I don't think any studios are using that 9 million number as an argument to prefer Bluray over HD-DVD.
The studios chose Blu-ray because of disc sales, at least according to their press statements. Blu-ray discs consistently outsold HD-DVD discs. Considering the fact that standalone HD-DVD players outsold standalone Blu-Ray players, where do you suppose all of those disc sales came from? PS3 owners.
QUOTE(vacsed @ Jan 16 2008, 03:53 PM)
Warner initially didn't want to support Bluray because for obvious reasons. First of all there is a problem with the name "bluray". The industry knows that it is a pain in the ass to get the general public aware of a completely new technology using a completely new name. This might sound neglectable to some people but brand recognition is a key factor in making a new technology successful. HD-DVD was the clear winner, because people know what DVD is and most even now know what HD means. The name "HD-DVD" is perfect.
You got it. That's why S-VHS and Video CD won out over DVD.
Oh, wait...
QUOTE(vacsed @ Jan 16 2008, 03:53 PM)
Then there is a problem with the manufacturing costs of BD players and discs. Warner and any other studio knows this, if they can choose to sell 1 million BDs or 1 million HD-DVDs, they certainly will choose HD-DVD because of the higher profit margins.
Not forgetting that the BD specification is yet not finished which will further confuse the average consumer. Average Joe does not know what profile 1.0, 1.1 or 2.0 means and so he will not know what to buy or gets fooled into buying an older, cheaper players only to find out later on that he got screwed and can't used the latest BD features. This is a big problem for the mass-market adoption of HD players and studios are not happy with it.
Agreed. Which is all the more reason why it shows just how important installed userbase is.
QUOTE(vacsed @ Jan 16 2008, 03:53 PM)
So how on earth is Bluray now in the better position? That's quite easy to understand if you know that DVD sales are since 1-2 years constantly decreasing. Studios are looking for the next DVD because they want to make big money and fast. Fast is the key word because Studios want ONE format as soon as possible to create a new billion dollar market and they have to choose sides. Warner choose Bluray even though they have been in serious negotiations to go HD-DVD exclusive because Fox was bribed by Sony to go blue. Warner had to follow suit because they need a new standard fast to make up for the decreasing DVD sales and this can only be done by having most major studios supporting one format.
In the end, this had nothing to do with the number of BD players on the market but all about studio trying to kill one format ASAP and the fate choose HD-DVD because of a sneaky intervention by Sony/BDA... and this at the very, very last moment on the 4th of January 2008. The day before the world was still destined to go red.
Ludicrous conspiracy theories aside, even if Sony HAD paid off Fox and Warner, how would that be any different then Toshiba paying off Dreamworks and Paramount? You seem to forget that they genuinely did pay off those studios, and were actually in negotiations to try to pay off Fox and Warner. In the end though, both studios chose Blu-Ray because the PS3 was simply putting Blu-Ray into too many homes for HD-DVD to ever win. That's the single reason, no matter how many conspiracy theories you choose to believe.
Post by: ConteZero76 on January 16, 2008, 04:31:00 PM
QUOTE(bob_barker @ Jan 16 2008, 04:40 PM)
Upgradeable, if your player is upgradeable... I fail to see the advantage there.
BluRay is updating to get features that have ALREADY BEEN RATIFIED AND ARE IN THE FINAL HDDVD SPEC. That's right, all HDDVD titles have HDi and players can access that content. You dont have to worry about buying a player only to find out it wont play the latest content.
"Facts" aren't facts.
The day I buy a Blu Ray disc is the day I can pirate it.
There is plenty of BD-Rip out there so I don't think that that's the point.
You're crying about upgrades ?
My 35 no-brand Mediatek DVD player can be updated (and is upgraded), I fail to see why a 300+ BD player shouldn't be upgradeable to Profile 1.1/2.0 too...
Post by: mc_365 on January 16, 2008, 07:28:00 PM
QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Jan 17 2008, 01:07 AM)
My 35 no-brand Mediatek DVD player can be updated (and is upgraded), I fail to see why a 300+ BD player shouldn't be upgradeable to Profile 1.1/2.0 too...
Profile 2.0, also known as BD-Live. The reason it's called BD-Live is that the major difference between profiles 1.1 and 2.0 is that Profile 2.0 requires that the player has an Internet connection. Although some current Blu-ray players have an Ethernet port, these are strictly for firmware updates and can't be used to access downloadable content.
Read here http://www.dvd-copy....ofile_1.1.shtml
Post by: satviewer2000 on January 17, 2008, 12:49:00 AM
HD-DVD has no reason to exist other than to play movies! It doesn't even have the redeeming feature of BetaMax, ie. it cannot even record. So without any software support, what reason does it even have to be around? Just to view HD-DVD porn?
The public won't be buying any more HD-DVD machines no matter how cheap they are now. So unless Toshiba & co. go out and buy their own movie company, there's no chance they will be around by the end of this year.
Post by: ConteZero76 on January 17, 2008, 12:50:00 AM
QUOTE(mc_365 @ Jan 17 2008, 05:04 AM)
Profile 2.0, also known as BD-Live. The reason it's called BD-Live is that the major difference between profiles 1.1 and 2.0 is that Profile 2.0 requires that the player has an Internet connection. Although some current Blu-ray players have an Ethernet port, these are strictly for firmware updates and can't be used to access downloadable content.
Read here http://www.dvd-copy....ofile_1.1.shtml
...at the present time.
Post by: Chancer on January 17, 2008, 03:59:00 AM
E.G: I have read for the last year how the PS3 has no games. Nothing for anyone to buy it for. The common quote is "All it is is a Blu-Ray player" Now all of a sudden all I see quoted is "The PS3 should not be counted as a standalone Blu-Ray player as nobody bought it for that. It is a games console. Nobody plays movies on it."
You can't have it both ways. If their are no games then is there not the possibility that it was actually bought because it offers a cheap way into Blu-Ray, as well as a lot of other future stuff.
Profiles. having an upgradeable profile is a good thing. People who bought early players bought them for what they could do at the time of purchase. Play the film. they will stay be able to perform that functionality with newer profile discs. It is being thrown in to posts as if all the early players are finished.
People who bought the first VHS machines didn't have Videoplus or multiple event timers or auto clock setting etc. It is the way equipment is.
Quality:HD-DVD is not better quality. The difference in quality is imperceptible.
Price: Toshiba are dumping stock . The price will drop so they can get rid of it. This is not them bringing out new cheap players. If we saw a new line cheap HD-DVD player then we would also see the market hit with Blu-ray players cheap.
People wil not buy something even if it is dirt cheap, if there are new films for it.
Cheap Players: Cheap players does not mean good quality players. Apex (and the other supermarket special DVD players) are crap. If you watch one and think the quality is good then you have low standards or a poor TV.
Alleged war: the war as someone rightly said is between any new format and DVD. the public has only just got used to DVD. They see it as a big quality leap from VCRs. those with a HDTV and a decent upscaling DVD have excellent quality now at a cheap price with a huge catalogue of movies. Any new format has to be equally as cheap (Hardware and Software) and have access to the massive number of movie titles, available currently.
Digital Downloads: Yes nice idea. Convenient possibly cheaper etc. Just one problem it will not be available to a large chunk of the world due to internet connection speed issues.
360 Add on: people are now claiming HD-DVD should have been built in to the 360. This is despite most people claiming that Sony shouldn't have put Blu-Ray in the PS3. A sneaky tactic to get Blu-Ray into homes. If MS had done this everyone would have embraced it and how wonderful it would have been.
It would have been no different to Sony and would also have put the price up.
This is not a debate on Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD. People are taking up positions against companies. If Sony was HD-DVD and MS Blu-Ray, everyone would be shouting the virtues of HD-DVD.
Refusing to buy something because a certain company is very narrow minded, considering if you start looking inside the stuff in your home, you will find all sorts of components made by the very company you make a stand against. Are you going to throw all that stuff out?
Purchase decisions should be based on Quality and Reliability at a fair price. Functionality at the time of purchase and support for the product and what it does. If everyone waited to see what was coming next, we would all still be waiting.
Post by: Barnolde on January 17, 2008, 03:48:00 AM
BR and the PS3 was the best thing Sony did, despite the monstrous amount of FUD and anti-Sony propaganda perpetuated by whiny nerds. Get your system online, hit system update, or just use a USB stick, or have it updated automatically when you play new titles.
BR was ALWAYS destined to win, the only ones who thought differently were the crazy HD DVD fans. When you have more studio support and you consistently outsell HD DVD by at least 60:40 ratio for EVERY SINGLE WEEK OF 2007, then you know which format's gonna succeed. HD DVD never had a chance, but it put up a valiant fight.
All you haters should pick up a PS3, it's a real geek's system and if you spend some actual time with it, you may just grow to like it.
Post by: mc_365 on January 17, 2008, 11:00:00 AM
Unless you rather be trapped into Region Locking, Minimal Online Content, DRM, Higher Price, Lack of PIP, Lack of Upgradeability, and vunerable to Sony a company that has not exactly been consumer freindly in recent years.
Yeah I guess this can be chalked up as a big victory for consumers.
I'm not a Hater or a Fanboy, I don't own either and I will continue to wait, though I do have an HDTV and have had one since 1998
I want HD-DVD to be adopted becuase it is beter for the consumer hands down.
You can call me a fanboy but i call anyone whom sais BRD is better, a stupid consumer.
If I owned a PS3 I doubt I would buy any BRD movies, I would probably rent them.
But the fact is I don't own a PS3 cuase it had no games until recently and I didn't want a BRD player.
The movie companies will make money either way, I think they are taking the choice away from consumers and choosing the format they believe will make them the most money, by corp give backs, fair use restrictions, and region coding.