Post by: staticFLINT on April 23, 2003, 10:29:00 PM
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 23, 2003, 10:43:00 PM
Post by: loai on April 23, 2003, 10:45:00 PM
Post by: apoc519 on April 23, 2003, 11:22:00 PM
Post by: MartialXboxArtist on April 23, 2003, 11:22:00 PM
as for Jesus, I don't think he'd like the fact that there are religion. I remember talking to some father guy and he told me that the dead sea scroll with Jesus actual words was taken by the Vaticans was probably destroyed because he believe that the TRUTH about what Jesus thought about religion was on there. The vaticans were scared NOT to get PAID anymore if people going to churches finds out about it.
Why do you guys think those statues cry blood, because the poor man on that cross is pissed off at these churches for doing nothing, but start wars, stealing the weak's money.The only thing you should believe in is the Man upstairs. No need to live by a stupid Bible made up of nothing by soybean ink. Live true to yourself, stay out of trouble and you'll be fine.. I will NEVER believe that someone can be FORGIVEN after killing someone. That's b*llsh*t.
Post by: nazis X. on April 23, 2003, 11:30:00 PM
People are not necessarily followers because they go to Church and do what the Bible, their God, and their Pastor asks them to do... spread the word on Jesus and God. Most of the people who are just 'blindly' following a religion would follow something else that's possibly more destructive.
On a side note, what do you call it when you go into a Dojo, practice a grunt and a thrust, and then bow to your Sensai? Seems kind of ritualistic to me, which, if you notice, is the basis of every religion is... ritual events, that is. Simply because you don't go to Church does not make you an individual, nor does going to Church automatically make you a follower.
In a nutshell... getting into this debate is pointless. Let people believe in something; Now, more than ever, people NEED hope and strength, and if going to Church, Mosque, Karate lessons, or your Temple to the Kami gives you a belief in a higher power that, consequently, helps you lead a better life more fullfillingly, then that's fine in my book.
Post by: nonamer66 on April 23, 2003, 11:31:00 PM
Post by: staticFLINT on April 23, 2003, 11:31:00 PM
Post by: MartialXboxArtist on April 23, 2003, 11:33:00 PM
| QUOTE (staticFLINT @ Apr 24 2003, 01:31 AM) |
| ^^ Did GOD create man? or did MAN create god? |
That is yet to be answered...
Post by: nazis X. on April 23, 2003, 11:34:00 PM
| QUOTE (staticFLINT @ Apr 24 2003, 07:31 AM) |
| ^^ Did GOD create man? or did MAN create god? |
Maybe they both did, all at once, in that paradoxal, gordian knot sort of way.
Post by: staticFLINT on April 23, 2003, 11:36:00 PM
| QUOTE (nazis X. @ Apr 24 2003, 12:34 AM) | ||
Maybe they both did, all at once, in that paradoxal, gordian knot sort of way. |
yes! that was it....
Post by: Lizard_King on April 24, 2003, 04:42:00 AM
But I'll give you Pascal's Wager: If there is a God, and you live your life morally and in a faithful manner, your gains are infinite. If there isn't, and you still live your life in a moral and faithful manner, you at the very least have likely been a good human being, nothing to sneeze at.
Conversely, if there is a God and you choose to live your life in a manner antithetical to the Bible/Koran/etc, you are in deep shit. If there isn't a God, and you choose to live imorally, then you have likely been a burden to mankind.
What does this mean? You have nothing to gain from giving up your faith, and EVERYTHING to lose.
Mind you, I myself have no place for religion in my life; but I have as much respect for the viewpoints of religious folks as I do for any other. I do not regard their decisions as weakness, nor do I have the unfettered arrogance to think not believing makes one inherently less of a victim of manipulation. My atheism is founded on personal issues, and I would never thrust my beliefs on others by thinking them inferior for something that is 100% opinion.
The only thing that matters as far as I am concerned is the sincerity of your beliefs. There are false atheists just as there are false Christians, and neither is very worthwhile. If you sincerely think God is not for you, then you shouldn't be asking other people what to think. You should read, contemplate, and figure out what such a decision really means.
It is not a democratic process that brings man truth. You do not put these things up to vote. You have to figure them out for yourself.
Keep in mind that if you ask at a place like X-S, the bulk of people will be against religion, simply because most young people rebel there first. Some will be well thought out responses, but a lot will just be shit they heard someone they think is smart say once about atheism that they regurgitate.
Some of the most incredibly good people in history have been atheists; likewise, all of the truly evil people in history have to have been atheists at their core, simply because no one who believed divine judgement was awaiting them would have been stupid enough to risk eternal damnation for earthly gain.
And loai this discussion has been had before at x-s, and will be had again. If you don't like it don't click on it. It is as valid as any other topic of debate on x-s, and there is no need for it to be a destructive discussion if people are just mature about their views being *OPINIONS* and not the absolute truth.
Post by: Krill123 on April 24, 2003, 05:00:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| If there is a God, and you live your life morally and in a faithful manner, your gains are infinite. If there isn't, and you still live your life in a moral and faithful manner, you at the very least have likely been a good human being, nothing to sneeze at. Conversely, if there is a God and you choose to live your life in a manner antithetical to the Bible/Koran/etc, you are in deep shit. If there isn't a God, and you choose to live imorally, then you have likely been a burden to mankind. What does this mean? You have nothing to gain from giving up your faith, and EVERYTHING to lose. |
Wise words indeed. But I see religion as a way of controlling people.. Make them scared so they won't be evil... I see the corruption.. The sheppard leading the flock... I say you shouldn't believe in something just because your affraid.. Affraid of the consequences if you don't believe in it..
To not follow blindly.. But think for yourself.
As for me.. I'm religious.. But I very rarely go to church cause I don't believe you have to be in a building to pray. God is everywhere.. And I pray for myself... To wish good things to those I care about.. Cause honestly.. Nothing bad can come from wishing good things for others.. So I see it more as a frame of mind.... I believe to achieve inner peace.
I believe to give my life meaning.
Post by: ruffles_x on April 24, 2003, 07:17:00 AM
Sorry about my Bad english
Post by: hump on April 24, 2003, 08:35:00 AM
and the person who created the theory of evolution was charels darwin.
as for me and god yeah i do belive but i never shaken his hand you just have to belive hes there.
no one belived a young scientist when he said every thing is made up small molecules grouped together called atoms, not un till 50-60 years later they invented the electron microscope and they proved his theory was right. his name was einstien.
just have to have faith
thx hump
Post by: ruffles_x on April 24, 2003, 08:54:00 AM
| QUOTE (hump @ Apr 24 2003, 03:35 PM) |
| first to be an Athiesist is not to belive in some thing there fore beliving in nothing is still beliving in something. and the person who created the theory of evolution was charels darwin. as for me and god yeah i do belive but i never shaken his hand you just have to belive hes there. no one belived a young scientist when he said every thing is made up small molecules grouped together called atoms, not un till 50-60 years later they invented the electron microscope and they proved his theory was right. his name was einstien. just have to have faith thx hump |
| QUOTE |
| no one belived a young scientist when he said every thing is made up small molecules grouped together called atoms, not un till 50-60 years later they invented the electron microscope and they proved his theory was right. his name was einstien. |
Einstein didint did that theory, it was Demócrito at first and Plato opposed him, then followed a large list of people giving ideas about the atom: Dalton, Avogadro, Roentgen, Becquerel, the Curie's, Rutherford, Bohr and Planck, just to name some withot forgeting about Einstein
Post by: jackster on April 24, 2003, 09:08:00 AM
I'm glad I'm in a religion as it benefits me so much. I can't stand the thought that when I die, I'm gone, all over. Its a horrible thought and it would scare the shit out of me. But it doesn't, since I'm a christian and that helps me. I never cry at funerals, why, becase I'm a christian and so beleive that I'll see those people again. It helps me so much. And hell even if I am wasting my time and being an idiot and going to church, who cares, I'l be dead anyway. I won't be able to go 'damn,what a waste of my time' as I'm dead anyway.
However, I see what people do go on about. FACT:- The mafia in Italy have put more money and projects into the community than all the relgions in Italy put together. It a sad thing. I don't follow the pope and what he says. Stories in the bible I don't fully beleive. I don't think we need a priest to be a middle man when speaking to God. Most times the most criticing people on religion are those in a religion.
Basically, relgion is you and however you want to interpret it. My nan, is she misses mass on sundays, she thinks she'll go to hell. I had a HUGE argument with her once about how if a man misses church because he was doing charity work, does he go to hell? she said YES
If you don't need religion,then don't be in one. But hey...better to be on the safe side (but if that was true I'd b a musilm, seik, hindu etc etc etc)
P.S. Read a book called 'life of Pi' if your losing religion.
Post by: Larg0 on April 24, 2003, 09:13:00 AM
So long,
Larg0
Post by: capninsano on April 24, 2003, 09:30:00 AM
You would say you have control over your mind right? Of course you would. Never once in my life when I was thinking all of a sudden did someone else (god) start thinking for me. If god is above everything else, why isn't he above the human mind? Because that's all god is, a piece of people's imagination.
The only purpose I see for religion is if it helps people to cope with the loss of someone and what not. Like so and so is going to a better place now, fine...I respect that. I don't believe it, but I respect that as long as it makes them happy.
However, if you want my take on things...religion was the first attempt to control people...and unfortunately it worked for the most part. Think about it, no laws, rules, etc... murders being committed. Since no one knows how we got here, why not make a story up about a "supreme being" who created us all. One so great that he is everywhere, knows everything we do, say, and even think. Let's add some rules that this supreme being wants enforced and BOOM...you have 10 commandments. Now we say if you break those commandments you will be sent to hell, fire, and brimstone....everlasting pain..etc....yet....this "supreme being" loves you..and no matter what you do...you will be forgiven.
No one here believes in invisible people correct? So why do we believe in a god?
Does anyone else believe people live in the sky? I don't.
Do you believe that you have "soul" that lives inside of you. I've seen hundreds of bodies opened up on tv in my time, I never once saw anyones soul.
Look at other things in religion....Noah's ark for instance. This is the most far fetched bullshit I have ever heard! He creates this ark that holds EVERY animal, male and female...and they sail around 40 days on a big ass flood. Now come on, everyone knows there are billions of different species..how much of a bs story is this??? And then geologists claim that there was once a great flood.....well no shit, you don't think once in a million years it rained like a mother fucker for a month or so?? c'mon...i'm sure it will happen again too sometime.
speaking of far fetched bullshit...how about moses parting the red sea??? If moses people were being supressed, then why in the hell didn't god help the jews in world war II?? Where are all these miracles today that used to happen??
Religion is all in people's minds and it is going to end up causing the end of the world when the muslim and christian nations get into a nuclear war to end all mankind.
I'm going to end this by stealing a quote from George Carlin....it all comes down to:
"My God's dick is bigger than your God's dick!"
Post by: Larg0 on April 24, 2003, 09:32:00 AM
| QUOTE (jackster @ Apr 24 2003, 05:08 PM) |
| I'm glad I'm in a religion as it benefits me so much. I can't stand the thought that when I die, I'm gone, all over. Its a horrible thought and it would scare the shit out of me. But it doesn't, since I'm a christian and that helps me. I never cry at funerals, why, becase I'm a christian and so beleive that I'll see those people again. It helps me so much. And hell even if I am wasting my time and being an idiot and going to church, who cares, I'l be dead anyway. I won't be able to go 'damn,what a waste of my time' as I'm dead anyway. However, I see what people do go on about. FACT:- The mafia in Italy have put more money and projects into the community than all the relgions in Italy put together. It a sad thing. I don't follow the pope and what he says. Stories in the bible I don't fully beleive. I don't think we need a priest to be a middle man when speaking to God. Most times the most criticing people on religion are those in a religion. Basically, relgion is you and however you want to interpret it. My nan, is she misses mass on sundays, she thinks she'll go to hell. I had a HUGE argument with her once about how if a man misses church because he was doing charity work, does he go to hell? she said YES If you don't need religion,then don't be in one. But hey...better to be on the safe side (but if that was true I'd b a musilm, seik, hindu etc etc etc) P.S. Read a book called 'life of Pi' if your losing religion. |
I don't know. I have faced and come to terms with the fact that I will die and so will everyone I have ever known. Once you do this and realize that that is it, it can be a good thing. You appreciate life and what you have much more. It also makes you understand that people may have their differences but in the end it doesn't matter so you should try to get along in the time you have. I see no evidence either way. I don't care that I don't know how the universe was created. A God is just as reasonable as a Big Bang because then you have to ask who created the God/Bang? I don't know and I am fine with that.
Religion evolved out of a way to explain the world. Humans became able to think and had time on their hands and saw a lot of weird stuff. Things like the sun and the stars could not be understood. Religion settled the ancient people's minds. Then it became a teaching tool. Tell a story backed by an immortal power and your children are more likely to listen. It did more though. It became a social event. It has always been an explanation of what happens after death. People like to be prepared for things before they do them. Death is something everyone has to do but no one can really gain reliable information about because people how experience it cannot communicate the experience. The idea of spirits and big guys in the skies seems a bit far fetched to me but if you have an argument, tell me. I am always open to an explanation. Like I said, I don't have the answers. It is like a multiple choice question with a billion choices. I cross out a few in an attempt to narrow it down but that doesn't mean I am any closer to getting it right. I think if you live a pretty moral life, respecting others and treating them how YOU would like to be treated then thats a good thing.
So long,
Larg0
Post by: M3_DeL on April 24, 2003, 09:55:00 AM
None the less this post is obviously here to try and start Sh*t.....
Post by: bong888 on April 24, 2003, 10:00:00 AM
i think like probually many of you do do, religioun is there to keep people i line and make people understand that they cant just go around doing what ever they want.
As for the bible you realy dont know what to believe, my self reading some of the stories i dont believe that they are true, but probually just stories with morels.
basically i believe that if you at least try to do every thing with good intentions u will be fine.
if you look at the past all religion as ever caused is war!!!!
Post by: kris on April 24, 2003, 11:27:00 AM
| QUOTE (mathman @ Apr 23 2003, 09:28 PM) |
| I't's rediculous. Right? Where's the proof? Might as well be a dragon in the sky. Christian here. Not for longthough. On the verge of conversion. Looking for proof. Anyone out there? Help me. Give me knowledge. God is a hallucination. A result of a thorough brainwash. The ability to reason rules supreme. Higher than any GOD. Convince me. Teach me spirituality. RELIGION = BLINDFAITH. Proof?. Where?. Oh just another Jahova's Witness. In practice and theory, everyone is an ATHEIST. Think. Christians: People make their own Christianity. Bible = Koran = Talmud = RELIGION = Tool(Not the band). "Religion is a means for people to achieve perfection". Why not ACADEMICS? MORALITY does not equal religion, but perception. As does everything else. Red or blue? It's perception. No one is right except for who you choose to percieve as right. Input is welcome. Ignorance is not. FAITH = BLINDFAITH. Sheep or INTELLIGENCE? You choose. Free will. Individuality. RELIGION = CONFLICT = CONTRADICTION = FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, and FALSEHOOD. |
Ok I have a true story that showed me ( saw it with my own two eyes) there is a god.
Ok so my mom aunt was at a park having a picnic really unsure of her faith and if there was a god. She was takeing pictures. Ok know remember this is when the cameras had 12 and 13 pictures on a roll but never 14.
So at the park there was a bench she saw.
Ok know she got her pictures devoloped and the manager called her in there were 14 pictures!!! (one over what it should have been anyways). The fourteenth picture was of Jesus sitting on that bench she saw at the park.
I have a photocopy of this (its kina grainy not that great but you can see him) .
This is a true story not a lie.
Post by: gainpresence on April 24, 2003, 11:31:00 AM
Post by: KenCuz on April 24, 2003, 11:41:00 AM
| QUOTE (gainpresence @ Apr 24 2003, 07:31 PM) |
| Are his abs ripped? |
Post by: bonk on April 24, 2003, 01:34:00 PM
Post by: nonamer66 on April 24, 2003, 01:39:00 PM
Post by: KenCuz on April 24, 2003, 01:43:00 PM
| QUOTE (nonamer66 @ Apr 24 2003, 09:39 PM) |
| bonk, ok that is just way too much info... |
hell yeah! I fell asleep five times before i finished reading that.
Post by: brahm2 on April 24, 2003, 02:39:00 PM
Lately, I have been thinking a lot about higher powers. I dont feel comfortable in my church anymore, and i have shafted my youth group and have stopped going.
I don't feel like i should be athiest, I still believe in some sort of higher power. However, i think most of my opinions have been influenced by science.
For example, I was told as a child that God created the earth and everything on it. As soon as Time magazine released their article on the Big Bang, i started thinking about it. Could a bunch of ancient biblical writers know more than modern scientists?
Then I started watching those TLC shows about faith and miracles, and realized how *dumb* those people who see the Virgin Mary in rocks look.
Lastly, and just recently, I began work part time in a bookstore. In the religion section, there are all these crackpot books for obsessive compulsive religious people, like "Cracking the Bible Code", and "Religion and the Simpsons". Is it just me, or are these not very religious topics? Anyone can take a large chunk of the Bible, arrange it any way they want, and pull hidden messages from it.
(Ironically?) the religion section is right beside the "Metaphysics and Occoult" section. This is where books on reincarnation, the afterlife, witchcraft, tarot reading, astrology, and conspiricy theory are kept. I think looking through this section one day was the last straw in my religion issue.
To sum it up (i feel like i'm writing an essay) I would like to believe in a higher power, but only as long as that power has no control over worldly events, is nameless, faceless, and is not recognized as a worldly being. Is that too much to ask???
Post by: MartialXboxArtist on April 24, 2003, 04:03:00 PM
Post by: gainpresence on April 24, 2003, 04:43:00 PM
To the first poster... that's cool and all for a movie/book (Fight Club), but those were the views of an Insane person (possibly mixed a bit with the views of a cool writer but dumb guy: Chuck Palahniuk).
To the first post of MXA: You got the second quarter of that verse right, but it conveys a completely different message when you look at the entire verse:
1st Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
On another note, since when have Catholics been moral or Biblical?
Bonk/Lizard: Adam and Eve weren't born (in the modern sense) at all
. When they were created, they were PERFECT in every way, but by THEIR OWN CHOICE, they sinned, and thus started the "sin nature" thing..Of course, God knew it was going to happen, but he still gave them the choice.. sort of a paradox I suppose, plenty of those in your science (evolution) as well as physics and math.
I'm out (I hope
).
Post by: Lizard_King on April 24, 2003, 05:36:00 PM
| QUOTE (gainpresence @ Apr 25 2003, 12:43 AM) |
| On another note, since when have Catholics been moral or Biblical? |
I always wonder why it is that evangelicals and protestants feel so threatened by Catholics that they must bash them constantly. My sister, a born again Christian, does the same shit, and it makes me sick. It is little wonder that Christians nowadays don't even have the political leverage to stop public schools from teaching homosexuality as orthodoxy; they can't stop picking on each other and realize that their similarities far outweigh their differences.
But that is neither here nor there.
| QUOTE |
Bonk/Lizard: Adam and Eve weren't born (in the modern sense) at all . When they were created, they were PERFECT in every way, but by THEIR OWN CHOICE, they sinned, and thus started the "sin nature" thing..Of course, God knew it was going to happen, but he still gave them the choice.. sort of a paradox I suppose, plenty of those in your science (evolution) as well as physics and math. I'm out (I hope ). |
"My" science and evolution?
I am actually very familiar with the Adam and Eve story, and it begs a number of questions in its own right. If a parent leaves a wondrous, dangerous item (for no reason than to test) before his child, specifically warning it not to touch the item, do you blame the child for hurting itself or the parent for setting up such an absurd situation? Why was the apple there in the first place?
Assuming it happened as you say, what is the logic in the child being punished for the sins of his ancestors? Why are we cursed to repeat their mistakes?
If God is good and omnipotent, why does evil exist, particularly in a form that is so appealing to man's nature? If he is good but is unable to stop evil, then he is not omnipotent. If he is omnipotent but chooses not to stop it, then he is not good. Either way, he is not God.
Post by: Majinbuu on April 24, 2003, 05:55:00 PM
| QUOTE (mathman @ Apr 24 2003, 01:28 AM) |
| I't's rediculous. Right? Where's the proof? Might as well be a dragon in the sky. Christian here. Not for longthough. On the verge of conversion. Looking for proof. Anyone out there? Help me. Give me knowledge. God is a hallucination. A result of a thorough brainwash. The ability to reason rules supreme. Higher than any GOD. Convince me. Teach me spirituality. RELIGION = BLINDFAITH. Proof?. Where?. Oh just another Jahova's Witness. In practice and theory, everyone is an ATHEIST. Think. Christians: People make their own Christianity. Bible = Koran = Talmud = RELIGION = Tool(Not the band). "Religion is a means for people to achieve perfection". Why not ACADEMICS? MORALITY does not equal religion, but perception. As does everything else. Red or blue? It's perception. No one is right except for who you choose to percieve as right. Input is welcome. Ignorance is not. FAITH = BLINDFAITH. Sheep or INTELLIGENCE? You choose. Free will. Individuality. RELIGION = CONFLICT = CONTRADICTION = FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, FALSEHOOD, and FALSEHOOD. |
God Dammit i hate ppl like you....do you know how long this fucking thread is gonna be? Possibly hundreds of replies...
I move that we merge this with the past thread on religion, since this will only be a restatment of what was already said.
Post by: Larg0 on April 24, 2003, 06:11:00 PM
| QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 24 2003, 06:51 PM) | ||
...said the founder of one of the most corrosive "secular" religions mankind has ever encountered. You don't see a little irony in that? |
Communism was a really good idea but humanity was not ready for it. They will not be for some while. I see a parrallel here with the acceptance tat religion is losing it's need in the world.
So long,
Larg0
Post by: kris on April 24, 2003, 08:08:00 PM
| QUOTE (bonk @ Apr 24 2003, 12:34 PM) |
| First of all, I'd like to say I'm not a huge expert on this stuff, there are plenty of better resources. I'll just try to sum up some of what I've learned. It's easy for people to say that believing in God can only be done in faith and that there is no evidence. While faith in God is important, there is evidence. Let's take the position of the Earth for example. The earth is located in one of the spiral points in the milky way galaxy, just on the edge of the spiral. This is one of the few points where many of the stars and planets are not being shifted around a lot, it is one of the more stable points. Most of the other stars end up going in and out of the spirals, coliding and such. In our solar system, the earth is at just the right distance to keep us nicely warm but not too hot. The angle of rotation keeps the seasons going and some other factors. The moon helps to regulate that angle and the rotation (to prevent the earth from not spinning). There are other things, but this just shows how super slight of a margin it is for the earth to be positioned the way it is. And then for it to have an atmosphere and sustain life? It's almost like someone had put it here on purpose. As for religion, it's probably most certain that some are created to control people. Many religions have branched off of each other because of the nature of people to be different and such. But I do believe there is one true religion, Christianity. Now, I feel that many forms of Christianity have gone away from how it was established. Catholicism and others put a lot of emphasis on works and how many can do good to get into heaven, which is not what is told in the Bible. The Bible tells of how man, since Adam and Eve, is born evil. God created "the Law" to describe what is called sin (yeah, people don't like that word). Sin is anything that is disapproved by God and is sepate from God. Every person's true nature is to sin. In the old testiment period, people would offer sacrifices in the form of sheep etc to pay for their sin. They knew they had done wrong and something had to be done about it. It wasn't until around 4-6 bc that the ultimate sacrifice for sin was born, Jesus Christ. Unknowing to his followers at the time, Jesus would become the one final sacrifice for all sin. Jesus, which is a part of God and was sent by God, humbled himself and became a man. As a part of God, he could not sin. So his death through the cross proved to be the perfect sacrifice. He who had no sin came into the world to pay for the sin. But he did not stop there, on the third day he was raised from the grave and showed himself to many. His return showed that sin was defeated. Christianity is different than other religions in that it is not about going to church, doing good things or being a good person. It's all about establishing a relationship with God and Jesus Christ. Other religions says that being a good person and doing good are what's needed to live on, but with Christianity, it's about the relationship. We have all sinned and done wrong, which separates us from God, therefore we must turn from our ways and accept Jesus and God as the savior and only true living God. Now, there is historical evidence that Jesus was resurrected and returned, this also separates Christianity from other religions. Several points include: 1. Empty Tomb -- No one could produce a body after the disciples claimed he had risen 2. Eye Witness Accounts -- Outside of the Bible, a Jewish man called Jesphus (sp?) (an opposer to Christianity) wrote about him and also a roman soldier (can't think of the name right now) mentioned him not long after all of this. 3. Lives changed -- Paul and other people dramatically changed their lives AFTER the ressurction, which showed that there was something to this man named Jesus. I think that's it |
I think you did a wonderfull summing up of it all.
I also agree with you saying that you
| QUOTE |
| It's all about establishing a relationship with God and Jesus Christ. |
I think thats bang on.
Its not about doing good deeds or going to church. Its about your relationship.
Some people just express differently.
Awesome Job!!!!!!!!
Post by: M3_DeL on April 24, 2003, 08:26:00 PM
| QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 24 2003, 10:51 AM) | ||||||||
...said the founder of one of the most corrosive "secular" religions mankind has ever encountered. You don't see a little irony in that?
The only standard I consider legitimate is the standard of material consequences of a faith. I believe such a utilitarian/materialist approach is the only sort of moral judgement I am willing to pass in terms of religion. For instance, I do not consider a religion that treats women as chattel to be the moral equivalent of one that merely denies them access to the priesthood. Neither is wholly in keeping with my moral code, but one is a whole hell of a lot closer and therefore morally superior, imnsho. Cultural evolutionism brings us back to nature vs nurture again, and I think just as ignoring genetics would be foolish in determining what constitutes personality (for instance), ignoring what made up each religious faith as a comparative standard is wrong.
Not everything should build on what was there before. Just because you feel like you've been there, done that, does not make this any less legitimate of a topic for others. Unlike xbox tech questions, this is wholly a matter of opinion and debate, and therefore new perspectives and threads are perfectly reasonable additions.
More than *your* post in this thread? I disagree. |
Uh......................Sure..........
By the way a wise mnn told me cookies are the opiates of the masses
Post by: M3_DeL on April 24, 2003, 08:27:00 PM
| QUOTE (Majinbuu @ Apr 24 2003, 05:55 PM) | ||
God Dammit i hate ppl like you....do you know how long this fucking thread is gonna be? Possibly hundreds of replies... I move that we merge this with the past thread on religion, since this will only be a restatment of what was already said. |
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 24, 2003, 08:44:00 PM
| QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 24 2003, 11:56 PM) |
| In any case, why would God need to go through all these complex rituals to rid us of sin? Couldn't an omniscient, omnipotent entity simply snap its metaphorical fingers and rid us of sin? |
There is laws irrevocably decreed in the heavens and earths that no one can break. Some one had to pay the price for sin; there is an opposite and equal reaction to every action. And because "no unclean being can enter the presence of God", without a savior no one could return back to that being who made them. Only a savior, one who was without sin, could pay the price of sin.
| QUOTE |
| If God is good and omnipotent, why does evil exist, particularly in a form that is so appealing to man's nature? |
Having to choose between good and evil is all part of His divine plan for us, His children. How else would we grow and learn from our mistakes if everyone was in a state of innocence? Learning self control over our carnal desires is how we perfect ourselves; humble ourselves. This life is but a training grounds to prove ourselves herein for the life to come. There is indeed a purose to our earthly existance.
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 25, 2003, 04:41:00 AM
| QUOTE (johnnobts @ Apr 24 2003, 07:05 AM) |
| I'm a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, lived a perfect life, died a sinner's death on the cross to pay for our sins, and rose again on the third day, conquering sin and death... I would also argue Christianity does not require a person to check their brains out at the door. After all, Christ calls for us to love the Lord with all our Heart, Mind, and Strength. If you would like to read up on some "intellegent Christians," read works by: C.S. Lewis, Norman Geisler, Alvin Plantiga, and Josh McDowell |
Same here.
Jesus set me free.
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 25, 2003, 04:49:00 AM
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 25, 2003, 04:52:00 AM
| QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 25 2003, 12:29 PM) |
| And gain, I know you were just kidding, but you know how there is a grain of truth in every jest? I'm sorry I flew off the handle a bit, it is just that I see Christians as a very potent force for good in America, if they could just stop pointing fingers at one another. I've even found Jehovah's Witnesses to be really wonderful people once I get past the fact that I had to answer my door for them. But when I ask them what they think about other Christians, particularly Catholics, you'd think I'd asked them about Satanists. |
Yeah I don't know why most christians would do that....were all one body....so why turn against eachother just because we're a little different? Grrr. God didn't intend for that.
Post by: Novahux on April 25, 2003, 05:23:00 AM
) get over this region debate already.Religion is perfectly understandable.
There is only one phrase that human beings have trouble saying more than "I'm sorry",
And that is,"I don't know"
Do you think early tribal leaders of human groups would have had any authority if they continually said ,"I don't know" every time someone asked them a question about the sky, moon, sun, Birth, death, dreams etc.
Religion = Control = Power = Corruption
Religion is just one of many bigotries mankind is cursed with until we evolve into something more intelligent.
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 25, 2003, 07:36:00 AM
| QUOTE (Novahux @ Apr 25 2003, 01:23 PM) |
| For GODS sake (excuse the pun ) get over this region debate already. Religion is perfectly understandable. There is only one phrase that human beings have trouble saying more than "I'm sorry", And that is,"I don't know" Do you think early tribal leaders of human groups would have had any authority if they continually said ,"I don't know" every time someone asked them a question about the sky, moon, sun, Birth, death, dreams etc. Religion = Control = Power = Corruption Religion is just one of many bigotries mankind is cursed with until we evolve into something more intelligent. |
But how would we evolve if there is no such thing as evolution?
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 25, 2003, 09:21:00 AM
| QUOTE (SupeRdUPErBlakE @ Apr 25 2003, 12:49 PM) |
| And its obvious evolution isnt real, its been completely proved wrong from time nad time again. |
It is not obvious. Evolutions does exist. If you did any study in the biological field, you would know that evolutions has, and still does happen. Maybe not in the drastic sense that science proscribes, but none the less, it is a viable fact. Every living organism has a basic blue print; just look at the DNA of anything, and that goes for single cell organisms, they are almost identical. This, i believe, is Gods blue print for creation.
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 25, 2003, 09:29:00 AM
| QUOTE (Foe-hammer @ Apr 25 2003, 05:21 PM) | ||
It is not obvious. Evolutions does exist. If you did any study in the biological field, you would know that evolutions has, and still does happen. Maybe not in the drastic sense that science proscribes, but none the less, it is a viable fact. Every living organism has a basic blue print; just look at the DNA of anything, and that goes for single cell organisms, they are almost identical. This, i believe, is Gods blue print for creation. |
OK....Yes I agree. I guess in a sence, things do change a little.....but like....Monkeys to Humans= Impossible, and not real. If that were the case, all monkeys by now would be humans....
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 25, 2003, 10:36:00 AM
| QUOTE (SupeRdUPErBlakE @ Apr 25 2003, 05:29 PM) |
| If that were the case, all monkeys by now would be humans.... |
I personally don't believe that humans came from chimps, although we are 97% identical to the chimp, but thinking that all monkeys would be humans is way off. What scientists say, is, both chimps and humans came from a most common ancestor, and evolved form there into their now respected forms.
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 25, 2003, 10:40:00 AM
Post by: MartialXboxArtist on April 25, 2003, 12:32:00 PM
| QUOTE (Foe-hammer @ Apr 25 2003, 12:36 PM) | ||
I personally don't believe that humans came from chimps, although we are 97% identical to the chimp, but thinking that all monkeys would be humans is way off. What scientists say, is, both chimps and humans came from a most common ancestor, and evolved form there into their now respected forms. |
I heard that the monkeys is just ONE DNA apart from us.. That's pretty crazy..
Post by: flagg on April 25, 2003, 01:31:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| You guys are just to ignorant to look at the facts....There is more proof of Jesus and his times and bible times that it was real then any other religion on the face of the eath. |
Really? Who conducted this study? Where are the results? Who funded this study? Give me the list of an INDEPENDANT publication that support your claim. By independant I mean, has no affliliation with a religious party or a scientific party. Chances are you can't give me one.
| QUOTE |
| There is proof to every bit of it. If you read it, it goes step by step through time, starting in the beginning where God made the universe and earth |
This is the most conceded, bullshit statement I have ever heard.
A.> Were you alive before the universe was formed. For that matter, were you alive before 1983?
B.> Who has this magic timeline that you speak of? We are still analyzing the first ice age, yet you claim that religion explains exactly how the universe was formed....very egotistical of you.
| QUOTE |
| And its obvious evolution isnt real, its been completely proved wrong from time nad time again. |
ARRRRGGGHHHH! Who proved it false? Give me the persons name and the firm he/she works for, and then tell me WHERE he got his funding from. Nothing has been proven false, thats what this whole discussion is about.
| QUOTE |
| Every scientist that has ever gone into a deep study of if the bible was real ended up being christian because there ARE no falses |
NO! The articles you read in religious publication are ALWAYS about science loseing (for lack of a better word) to religion. What else would they put? Do you think they would support science? (The science publications are no better)
| QUOTE |
| Now whoever would believe the bible is completely fake then there so retarded because there are hundreds of thousands of incidents in it through history that have proved completely true. |
Name one.
The problem with people like you is you swallow all of this shit whole, without any thinking for yourself. Religion has caused more problems than it has solved in the past. Hell, there is a war going on now between Israel and Palestine over this very issue. Then you have the Catholics and the Protestants, then you have the Muslims vs Catholics, the list goes on an on.
What if all we had was ourselves and that there is no one looking after us? After all I'm sure god had a plan for Lacey Peterson, and Ryan White, and David Koresh, and those 13 asshole who drove two planes into the world trade center, and not to mention the several thousand who died as a result. Was god just sittin on the can readin a newspaper at that point and time? If we are all gods children, we have a really neglective father.
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 25, 2003, 02:37:00 PM
| QUOTE (flagg @ Apr 25 2003, 09:31 PM) |
| After all I'm sure god had a plan for Lacey Peterson, and Ryan White, and David Koresh, and those 13 asshole who drove two planes into the world trade center, and not to mention the several thousand who died as a result. Was god just sittin on the can readin a newspaper at that point and time? If we are all gods children, we have a really neglective father. |
You think the Lord doesn't feel as much pain, and more than any earthly parent who's children die? Unfortunelty the wicked are sometimes permitted to kill the rightous so judgement on them will be exacted. And regardless of how some leave this world, sometimes their time is up, and they are ready to go. Just because we don't understand or comprehend why some things are allowed to happen, doesn't mean there is no God, or He doesn't know what he's doing. If there is such an all powerful being, don't you think he know a little more than us?
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 25, 2003, 08:13:00 PM
| QUOTE (flagg @ Apr 25 2003, 10:31 PM) | ||||||||||
| I wasnt even going to get into this discussion but goddamn my temper... Oooookkay let's itemize this blanket statement.
Really? Who conducted this study? Where are the results? Who funded this study? Give me the list of an INDEPENDANT publication that support your claim. By independant I mean, has no affliliation with a religious party or a scientific party. Chances are you can't give me one.
This is the most conceded, bullshit statement I have ever heard. A.> Were you alive before the universe was formed. For that matter, were you alive before 1983? B.> Who has this magic timeline that you speak of? We are still analyzing the first ice age, yet you claim that religion explains exactly how the universe was formed....very egotistical of you.
ARRRRGGGHHHH! Who proved it false? Give me the persons name and the firm he/she works for, and then tell me WHERE he got his funding from. Nothing has been proven false, thats what this whole discussion is about.
NO! The articles you read in religious publication are ALWAYS about science loseing (for lack of a better word) to religion. What else would they put? Do you think they would support science? (The science publications are no better)
Name one. The problem with people like you is you swallow all of this shit whole, without any thinking for yourself. Religion has caused more problems than it has solved in the past. Hell, there is a war going on now between Israel and Palestine over this very issue. Then you have the Catholics and the Protestants, then you have the Muslims vs Catholics, the list goes on an on. What if all we had was ourselves and that there is no one looking after us? After all I'm sure god had a plan for Lacey Peterson, and Ryan White, and David Koresh, and those 13 asshole who drove two planes into the world trade center, and not to mention the several thousand who died as a result. Was god just sittin on the can readin a newspaper at that point and time? If we are all gods children, we have a really neglective father. |
Grrr...I'm not good at debating....so I will no longer debate this. Except for one thing. The worldwide flood mentioned in genesis where Noah took 2 of each species onto the boat and floated for almost a year or so, till it receded and the boat landed on Mt. Ararat. The flood has been proven TRUE. I'm to lazy to go and find WHERE but I have read it many times, if your so into proving me wrong, you find where it says its false.
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 25, 2003, 08:17:00 PM
| QUOTE (Foe-hammer @ Apr 25 2003, 11:37 PM) | ||
You think the Lord doesn't feel as much pain, and more than any earthly parent who's children die? Unfortunelty the wicked are sometimes permitted to kill the rightous so judgement on them will be exacted. And regardless of how some leave this world, sometimes their time is up, and they are ready to go. Just because we don't understand or comprehend why some things are allowed to happen, doesn't mean there is no God, or He doesn't know what he's doing. If there is such an all powerful being, don't you think he know a little more than us? |
Oh, and I have a great answer to this. If God wanted to stop those planes of course he could have. But he let satan go ahead and do what he wanted to do because God wants to get our attention!
Post by: capninsano on April 25, 2003, 08:18:00 PM
How do you think he got male and female of every species on an ark. It's complete and utter BS! That means he had over a billlion different species on the ark!
Post by: nonamer66 on April 25, 2003, 08:20:00 PM
Post by: Hammy on April 25, 2003, 11:02:00 PM
Big Note To GOD. If you do exist strike my down right now and if i post to this xbox scene tomorrow then god does not exist as i have always thought,In other words Fuck you God and Fuck you satan.
I believe that when you die that that is it as there is not heaven and no hell,Wake people and think for yourselfs,When it comes down to it we are just animals and nothing special
Post by: nonamer66 on April 25, 2003, 11:10:00 PM
| QUOTE (Hammy @ Apr 26 2003, 02:02 AM) |
| Religion was invented to controll sheep which 99% of dicks on this planet earth are. I you think for yourself you would not believe in any Religion.As i have said before,we are all just the highest form of animal on this planet and there is no bullshit god or satan as these 2 were created to conroll people that don't think for themselfs Big Note To GOD. If you do exist strike my down right now and if i post to this xbox scene tomorrow then god does not exist as i have always thought,In other words Fuck you God and Fuck you satan. I believe that when you die that that is it as there is not heaven and no hell,Wake people and think for yourselfs,When it comes down to it we are just animals and nothing special |
Hammy, I feel sorry for you. I hope one day your views will change. I do believe that there is a higher being. God is merciful and patient. I only hope he gives you time so that you will see that. I would much rather believe I'm going somewhere after this life then to have nothing to live towards and just rot in the ground. The way you stated what you did makes you a very sad person with nothing to live for.
okay enough of this... look at my hoe's boobies
Post by: jesterrace777 on April 25, 2003, 11:20:00 PM
Post by: Novahux on April 25, 2003, 11:28:00 PM
| QUOTE |
 |
Lord be praised, evolution does exist, All be it, it a silicone form
Post by: nonamer66 on April 25, 2003, 11:31:00 PM
| QUOTE (Novahux @ Apr 26 2003, 02:28 AM) |
| Lord be praised, evolution does exist, All be it, it a silicone form |
Post by: Foe-hammer on April 26, 2003, 12:04:00 AM
| QUOTE (Hammy @ Apr 26 2003, 08:02 AM) |
| Religion was invented to controll sheep which 99% of dicks on this planet earth are. I you think for yourself you would not believe in any Religion.As i have said before,we are all just the highest form of animal on this planet and there is no bullshit god or satan as these 2 were created to conroll people that don't think for themselfs Big Note To GOD. If you do exist strike my down right now and if i post to this xbox scene tomorrow then god does not exist as i have always thought,In other words Fuck you God and Fuck you satan. I believe that when you die that that is it as there is not heaven and no hell,Wake people and think for yourselfs,When it comes down to it we are just animals and nothing special |
Dude, you definently have issues.
Post by: Novahux on April 26, 2003, 02:33:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE (Hammy @ Apr 26 2003, 08:02 AM) Religion was invented to controll sheep which 99% of dicks on this planet earth are. I you think for yourself you would not believe in any Religion.As i have said before,we are all just the highest form of animal on this planet and there is no bullshit god or satan as these 2 were created to conroll people that don't think for themselfs Big Note To GOD. If you do exist strike my down right now and if i post to this xbox scene tomorrow then god does not exist as i have always thought,In other words Fuck you God and Fuck you satan. I believe that when you die that that is it as there is not heaven and no hell,Wake people and think for yourselfs,When it comes down to it we are just animals and nothing special |
, Jesus Hammy don't you believe anything from ancient times, Hell you probably think the earth is round and revolves around the sun. Your parents must have skipped their brainwashing classes at the local church. Shame on them 
Post by: Lizard_King on April 26, 2003, 04:29:00 AM
| QUOTE (Novahux @ Apr 26 2003, 11:33 AM) |
| , Jesus Hammy don't you believe anything from ancient times, Hell you probably think the earth is round and revolves around the sun. Your parents must have skipped their brainwashing classes at the local church. Shame on them |
Blind hatred and contempt for your fellow man is no superior to the most primitive superstition.
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 26, 2003, 06:09:00 AM
| QUOTE (capninsano @ Apr 26 2003, 05:18 AM) |
| Like I said in my first post...the earth is BILLIONS of years old. You don't suppose...I dunno, maybe just once, there was a large flood??? Of course there was. Half of the world was under water at one point. Just because there was a large flood once doesn't prove anything. How do you think he got male and female of every species on an ark. It's complete and utter BS! That means he had over a billlion different species on the ark! |
The earth is around 8,000 years old. And he got 2 of each kind of animal. Not each type of each species. He only brought 2 spiders, 2 turtles, 2 sheep......get it? And the ark was HUGE so it is 100% possible.
Post by: Novahux on April 26, 2003, 06:27:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| The earth is around 8,000 years old. And he got 2 of each kind of animal. Not each type of each species. He only brought 2 spiders, 2 turtles, 2 sheep......get it? And the ark was HUGE so it is 100% possible. |
Each animal had there own double bed cabin with onsuite, prestige animals like the lion had balcony views with invitation to dine at Noahs table.
The true story was, Noah was just some demented freak who built a boat. Filled if with animals he stole from nearby farms.
After the boat sat in the dry-docks for 40 days and forty nights, Him and the poor animals then died from a massive methane gas explosion, as he forgot to ventilate the sewer pit.
Post by: flagg on April 26, 2003, 09:15:00 AM
| QUOTE (SupeRdUPErBlakE @ Apr 26 2003, 02:09 PM) | ||
The earth is around 8,000 years old. And he got 2 of each kind of animal. Not each type of each species. He only brought 2 spiders, 2 turtles, 2 sheep......get it? And the ark was HUGE so it is 100% possible. |
Rather than going back and forth with ya, let me ask a couple of questions.
What do you think about gay people?
What do you think about sex for other than pro-creation (i.e for fun)
What do you think about people who piece and tatoo their body?
What do you think about peope who drink and do drugs?
Not all of these questions apply to me, but I am going somewhere with this.
Post by: capninsano on April 26, 2003, 10:07:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| The earth is around 8,000 years old |
If the earth is around 8,000 years old, I would like to know where you got that information, because it's full of shit lol
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 26, 2003, 11:06:00 AM
| QUOTE (flagg @ Apr 26 2003, 06:15 PM) | ||||
Rather than going back and forth with ya, let me ask a couple of questions. What do you think about gay people? What do you think about sex for other than pro-creation (i.e for fun) What do you think about people who piece and tatoo their body? What do you think about peope who drink and do drugs? Not all of these questions apply to me, but I am going somewhere with this. |
I think gay people are messed up.
I think that if its your wife, sex for fun is ok...
People who peirce and tattoo there body do what they want. I don't find it bad at all!
I don't really find drinking and drugs bad either, I don't do them, but if someone does there only destroying there own body. So....yeah, its nice to know that if you are a christian though, you want to stay as far away from that as possible, because your body is the temple...and if its the temple I doubt you want your body to be all messed up with drugs and alchohol...
Post by: capninsano on April 26, 2003, 11:19:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Duck and cover, as you will likely be facing a veritable mountain of pseudo-science in a little while. If there are two kinds of people that really bother me, one would have to be scientists that try to "disprove" a Christian's faith and the other Christians that try to use science to "prove" their faith. |
I'm using science to prove a point....the earth has been around for so long that a large flood once in that time period is without a doubt possible.
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 26, 2003, 11:35:00 AM
| QUOTE (capninsano @ Apr 26 2003, 08:19 PM) | ||
I'm using science to prove a point....the earth has been around for so long that a large flood once in that time period is without a doubt possible. |
Yeah, and earth being 8000 years old is as well VERY possible to have had a flood. You know it also mentions the ice age in the bible...
Post by: flagg on April 26, 2003, 11:42:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| I think gay people are messed up. |
This little comment right here defines ignorance to a "t"
| QUOTE |
| I think that if its your wife, sex for fun is ok... |
Sex is a natural expression of lust. Pure and simple. Isn't lust one of the seven sins? That aside, just because you are not married does not make it wrong.
| QUOTE |
| I don't really find drinking and drugs bad either, I don't do them, but if someone does there only destroying there own body. So....yeah, its nice to know that if you are a christian though, you want to stay as far away from that as possible, because your body is the temple...and if its the temple I doubt you want your body to be all messed up with drugs and alchohol... |
While I do agree with the body being a temple (for other reasons, not religious) I think you are missing out on a great part of life by denying yourself these things. Now Im not saying that to live a meaningful life you need to take every drug and drink like a sailor, however, (I don't know your age) if your in college your just going to do academics? No fun? What about a frat party, getting drunk and puking, hooking up with a random chick that you just find attractive. Believe it or not while these things may seem stupid but I think they are a big part of lifes experiences. They don't hurt anybody, and all of them contribute to you being a well-rounded memeber of society. Jesus or god or whatever gave you free will, (not to mention a brain) if there is a god wouldnt he want you to live your life to the fullest? As long as your not hurting kids or killing people, whats wrong with that?
Post by: MartialXboxArtist on April 26, 2003, 12:49:00 PM
Post by: Lizard_King on April 26, 2003, 12:50:00 PM
| QUOTE (MartialXboxArtist @ Apr 26 2003, 09:49 PM) |
| Any religion saying SEX is eveil, then they are ALL evil since SEX was what created their @ss. |
I don't know of *any* religion that says that. But we'll just tack that non-sequiter onto your long list...
Post by: gainpresence on April 26, 2003, 12:51:00 PM
| QUOTE (MartialXboxArtist @ Apr 26 2003, 02:49 PM) |
| Any religion saying SEX is eveil, then they are ALL evil since SEX was what created their @ss. |
No religion that I know of says sex is evil..
EDIT: uh... yeah... what LK said..
Post by: Mage on April 26, 2003, 01:19:00 PM
| QUOTE (MartialXboxArtist @ Apr 26 2003, 02:04 PM) |
| Sex before marriage? I'm sure you've heard of that. You're just another person on my list that I am beginning not have any respect for. You don't know EVERYTHING. I did respect you for your knowledge, but the way you put people down for their comments is jumping the gun. I can see who's a GROUPIE on here that backs each other up even when they're wrong.. All I can say is INCOMPETENT... Hurry and reply back to my post and don't forget to shove in HIGH CALIBER WORDS to make yourself look cool.. ACTION speaks louder than words... ALWAYS... |
As if that means much to anyone here?
Seriously, he's critical of your wording saying they say sex is evil.
I don't know of many religions outside of cults that would say sex is evil.
They can say that pre-marital sex is bad, but that isn't the same thing as saying sex is evil.
Even you know that.
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 26, 2003, 01:29:00 PM
| QUOTE (bonk @ Apr 24 2003, 10:34 PM) |
| First of all, I'd like to say I'm not a huge expert on this stuff, there are plenty of better resources. I'll just try to sum up some of what I've learned. It's easy for people to say that believing in God can only be done in faith and that there is no evidence. While faith in God is important, there is evidence. Let's take the position of the Earth for example. The earth is located in one of the spiral points in the milky way galaxy, just on the edge of the spiral. This is one of the few points where many of the stars and planets are not being shifted around a lot, it is one of the more stable points. Most of the other stars end up going in and out of the spirals, coliding and such. In our solar system, the earth is at just the right distance to keep us nicely warm but not too hot. The angle of rotation keeps the seasons going and some other factors. The moon helps to regulate that angle and the rotation (to prevent the earth from not spinning). There are other things, but this just shows how super slight of a margin it is for the earth to be positioned the way it is. And then for it to have an atmosphere and sustain life? It's almost like someone had put it here on purpose. As for religion, it's probably most certain that some are created to control people. Many religions have branched off of each other because of the nature of people to be different and such. But I do believe there is one true religion, Christianity. Now, I feel that many forms of Christianity have gone away from how it was established. Catholicism and others put a lot of emphasis on works and how many can do good to get into heaven, which is not what is told in the Bible. The Bible tells of how man, since Adam and Eve, is born evil. God created "the Law" to describe what is called sin (yeah, people don't like that word). Sin is anything that is disapproved by God and is sepate from God. Every person's true nature is to sin. In the old testiment period, people would offer sacrifices in the form of sheep etc to pay for their sin. They knew they had done wrong and something had to be done about it. It wasn't until around 4-6 bc that the ultimate sacrifice for sin was born, Jesus Christ. Unknowing to his followers at the time, Jesus would become the one final sacrifice for all sin. Jesus, which is a part of God and was sent by God, humbled himself and became a man. As a part of God, he could not sin. So his death through the cross proved to be the perfect sacrifice. He who had no sin came into the world to pay for the sin. But he did not stop there, on the third day he was raised from the grave and showed himself to many. His return showed that sin was defeated. Christianity is different than other religions in that it is not about going to church, doing good things or being a good person. It's all about establishing a relationship with God and Jesus Christ. Other religions says that being a good person and doing good are what's needed to live on, but with Christianity, it's about the relationship. We have all sinned and done wrong, which separates us from God, therefore we must turn from our ways and accept Jesus and God as the savior and only true living God. Now, there is historical evidence that Jesus was resurrected and returned, this also separates Christianity from other religions. Several points include: 1. Empty Tomb -- No one could produce a body after the disciples claimed he had risen 2. Eye Witness Accounts -- Outside of the Bible, a Jewish man called Jesphus (sp?) (an opposer to Christianity) wrote about him and also a roman soldier (can't think of the name right now) mentioned him not long after all of this. 3. Lives changed -- Paul and other people dramatically changed their lives AFTER the ressurction, which showed that there was something to this man named Jesus. I think that's it |
Oh, and bonk makes GREAT points.
Post by: nonamer66 on April 26, 2003, 01:38:00 PM
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 26, 2003, 01:40:00 PM
| QUOTE (nonamer66 @ Apr 26 2003, 10:38 PM) |
| look at my hoe's boobies.... don't you just want to have evil sex with her??????? |
Not exactly......
Post by: nonamer66 on April 26, 2003, 01:52:00 PM
| QUOTE (MartialXboxArtist @ Apr 26 2003, 04:46 PM) | ||
What's up bud.. |
hey MXA, I'm doing good. I'm 120gigabytes happier now.
Post by: SupeRdUPErBlakE on April 26, 2003, 01:59:00 PM
| QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 26 2003, 10:55 PM) | ||||||||
Which isn't what you said.
Oh no. Not that. Anything but that... The reason I criticized your post is for largely the same problem you and I have had before. You take one issue (ie, someone not thinking the PS2 is a piece of shit) and seek to turn it into a flame war by reducing that to it's worst possible interpretations (someone who hates the xbox). Likewise, here you see a variety of different positions from many sides of the ideological spectrum, and then you brand the Christian contingent with "anti-sex", as if that even made sense. Pre-marital sex is a totally different issue.
Yeah. Everyone who disagrees with you is part of a conspiracy. People couldn't possibly have similar opinions that disagree with yours unless there were something dishonest about it. Whatever.
For the 100th time, I can't help the way I write, nor do I think proper grammar and a precise vocabulary are problems. It is profoundly ironic to talk about "action" in a 100% action-free environment like this one. What am I supposed to do? Kick your ass if I disagree with you? Would that be more reasonable? Would that make me the man of "action" you purport to be? |
Well, even though Lizard is not the same religion as I, I think he makes great points, and is really on everyones side for this.
He takes everyones views into consideration, trying to really make everyone happy, which is cool.
Post by: Lizard_King on April 26, 2003, 02:40:00 PM
| QUOTE (SupeRdUPErBlakE @ Apr 26 2003, 10:59 PM) |
| Well, even though Lizard is not the same religion as I, I think he makes great points, and is really on everyones side for this. He takes everyones views into consideration, trying to really make everyone happy, which is cool. |
Well, my intention has not been to make anyone happy with my arguments, but if that was the result with you, I am glad.
It's tough being a right-wing atheist, ya know....
| QUOTE |
| martialxboxartist: I'm not going to start another war here. Lets just put it this way. Everyone is right in their own ways. So I'm cool. |
Fine by me. When it comes to purely theological issues, I think that is a very healthy approach. For whatever that's worth.
Post by: MartialXboxArtist on April 26, 2003, 02:49:00 PM
| QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 26 2003, 05:40 PM) | ||||
Well, my intention has not been to make anyone happy with my arguments, but if that was the result with you, I am glad. It's tough being a right-wing atheist, ya know....
Fine by me. When it comes to purely theological issues, I think that is a very healthy approach. For whatever that's worth. |
Sweet... Funny how humans are, we get pissed at words typed on a man made screen..
Post by: Novahux on April 27, 2003, 12:15:00 AM
I would guesstimate it at 99%. what say you ?
Religious people can anyway ask for forgiveness for their sins,
Agnostics & Atheists , cant do that, so it may be why they are less likely to be criminals.
Post by: gainpresence on April 27, 2003, 12:18:00 AM
Anyway, of course Athiests can't ask forgiveness for their sins.. but there IS no sin for them.. Sin is whatever is not of God, since an athiests god is himself, is pretty much impossible to sin.
"As long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else, it's OK"
"As long as I think it's OK, and I get away with it, it's OK"
Post by: Novahux on April 27, 2003, 05:52:00 AM
| QUOTE |
| Anyway, of course Athiests can't ask forgiveness for their sins.. but there IS no sin for them.. Sin is whatever is not of God, since an athiests god is himself, is pretty much impossible to sin. "As long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else, it's OK" "As long as I think it's OK, and I get away with it, it's OK" |
Thats not really true, an Atheist would class a sin as a bad thing done.( the word still has meaning to them)
Humans have elvolved from a social group structure with an deep understanding of right and wrong (as it affects that social group) from our Gene's and parents influence, An Athesist has almost exactly the same moral ethics as any religious person.
So therefor, a "Sin" against ones personal code of conduct would torment an Atheisit more so than a Churchy as they have no way to be forgivin for that SIN. The only recourse is to repair the damage caused by that SIN and ask forgiveness from the Person affected.
Post by: Lizard_King on April 27, 2003, 07:49:00 AM
| QUOTE (Novahux @ Apr 27 2003, 09:15 AM) |
| Out of all the murderers currently in jail, how many would be of some religious faith. ? I would guesstimate it at 99%. what say you ? Religious people can anyway ask for forgiveness for their sins, Agnostics & Atheists , cant do that, so it may be why they are less likely to be criminals. |
A lot more people come out of prison "religious" than going into it, and many times these days in the US it is simply that militant brand of Islam known as Wahabbism. But that is neither here nor there.
1. I think your 99% figure is nonsense, for one thing. Saying that "uh, yeah, I believe in God...yeah I was baptized" does not meet even the looser definitions of most faiths. Ted Kennedy and Tom Daschle can claim up and down that they are Catholics, and the former can even pollute holy ground with his presence every Sunday, but it does not change the fact that someone who is an advocate for abortion cannot possibly be a Catholic, any more than someone who is an advocate for murder or incest. (mind you, these are not my views I am covering here, just Catholic reality as I understand it).
2. I stated before the logical impossibility of a true believer committing a sin, barring error or a moment of passion or insanity. You simply do not commit, for example, 2nd degree murder for personal gain on earth if you know you will burn in hell for it.
By definition, a criminal must in his heart be an atheist since he believes he can escape the judgement of God.
3. I believe your view of confession betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the Catholic faith (and for one, that is only a significant part of the Christians in most countries, but far from all of them...you can't base your criticisms of all religions, or even just of Christianity, on a part of one branch of Christianity). It is not a process like brushing one's teeth every day, where sins are simply removed like magic. It involves a process of contrition and genuine remorse for one's sins; since God presumably has a "big picture" view of anything there is nothing he will not ultimately forgive you.
That does not mean one can literally or metaphorically get a away with murder; a false confession, while it may fool the priest or the parole board, does nothing for your chances of salvation.
Simply because you as an atheist are incapable of understanding a sincere confession does not make it any less worthwhile as a method of atoning for one's sins.
| QUOTE |
| Thats not really true, an Atheist would class a sin as a bad thing done.( the word still has meaning to them) |
A sin is not "a bad thing done". It is a transgression against a cosmic, absolute morality set forth by a higher power. No atheist can even begin to approach such a standard for their behaviour (the closest thing would be Objectivism, but there are serious logical issues with its absolutism since it purports to be rational to its core).
I am not saying that atheists cannot be moral people, nor that there lives can be just as virtuous in material results as a person of faith's. But it is a far more complex process that requires a great deal of introspection and self-discipline. Just as many Christians are really "Christians", most atheists simply seek a removal of moral strictures from their life, and are not sincerely seeking a rational substitute in any real form.
| QUOTE |
| gainpresence I think I heard that somewhere around 95% of the world claims to be religous.. |
Ignoring the impossibility of taking such a poll, and its relative meaningless results without some fairly deep analysis of what each person means by "religious", I know lots of people that would answer reflexively if asked "Yes, I am a (x faith)". That does not make it true, it simply means that humans are culturally conditioned to answer "yes" to that question as a default.
| QUOTE |
| Anyway, of course Athiests can't ask forgiveness for their sins.. but there IS no sin for them.. Sin is whatever is not of God, since an athiests god is himself, is pretty much impossible to sin. "As long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else, it's OK" "As long as I think it's OK, and I get away with it, it's OK" |
You define hedonism, not atheism. Much like the same way ignorant people view libertarians as libertines. While I believe that such a definition encompasses the majority of mankind, whether they call themselves religious or atheist, to claim that it is the moral core of atheism is as wrongheaded as Novahux's "worst case scenario" view of Catholic confession.
Now, whether I as a person who happens to be an atheist approve of "As long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else, it's OK" depends on whether we are talking about in a political sense or in a personal sense. As a political philosophy, I defend it to the end, simply because I don't believe in coerced morality (I mean, what's the point) where it does not serve material ends in maintaining a basic level of law and order. As a personal morality, it is a substandard, shallow way of living one's life. Even if one adheres to a purely selfish view of the world as I do, that does not mean it is unprincipled selfishness or one that does not rely on the well-being of persons other than myself to be satisfied.