Post by: Xbox-Scene on May 19, 2007, 10:10:00 PM
Linus Torvalds to Microsoft: put up or shut up Posted by XanTium | May 19 23:34 EST | News Category: OffTopic |
| Not directly Xbox-related, but well ... from engadget.com: Quote
Full Story: engadget.com | informationweek.com |
Post by: TechPagan on May 19, 2007, 09:15:00 PM
Post by: Tribis on May 19, 2007, 09:19:00 PM
Post by: Deihmos on May 19, 2007, 09:58:00 PM
QUOTE(Tribis @ May 19 2007, 11:55 PM) 
Fuck yeah Linus! The day MS source needs to be reviewed, the hot water will pour.
What does this have to do with the Xbox?
Post by: stevenalvarado on May 19, 2007, 09:27:00 PM
Post by: XanTium on May 19, 2007, 09:28:00 PM
QUOTE(Deihmos @ May 20 2007, 05:58 AM) 
What does this have to do with the Xbox?
not much like I said in the 1st line of the news item ... however I think it's interesting news for a big part of our members as we try to open the Xbox1/360 platform to run linux etc too.
Post by: g8crapachino on May 19, 2007, 10:19:00 PM
Post by: poop1 on May 19, 2007, 10:35:00 PM
This post has been edited by poop1: May 20 2007, 05:36 AM
Post by: bigtrouble777 on May 19, 2007, 10:54:00 PM
This is significant because MS is trying to eliminate competition through FUD. Tolvalds' response was very restrained, imo. One thing you guys have to realize is that much of the tools developed for hacking the xbox/xbox360 are linux based. In fact, I think most of the firmwares are linux based. Just because you run a phatt souped up windows desktop and play an elite modded xbox 360 doesn't mean you don't use linux every day. Most routers, web servers and tons of embeded devices run linux, etc. This affects you much more than getting Ubuntu to boot on the 360 (which would be nice).
I personally like the 360, but MS as a company is a POS. They have to be kept in check or you'll be forced to buy a 360 if you want to play games.
This post has been edited by bigtrouble777: May 20 2007, 05:55 AM
Post by: dmitri on May 19, 2007, 11:02:00 PM
QUOTE(g8crapachino @ May 20 2007, 04:19 AM)
This completely pointless rhetoric by Linus, Microsoft, and the rest of the industry. Linus got his ego bruised so of course he has to comment. Either way, this Linux vs. Microsoft bashing is just old, tired, and irrelevent.
Haha first the Arcade press release to push bad press down the page, then this pops up.. nice.
One big issue here is patents on code.. Too many patents, nothing new is ever built. At least nothing new that isn't owned by Microsoft. Since people say this is old and tired.. Resistance is futile!
Post by: Maverick0984 on May 20, 2007, 12:01:00 AM
QUOTE(bigtrouble777 @ May 19 2007, 11:54 PM)
I didn't realize this board was run by 8 years old... haven't been around in a while. Read carefully and you guys might learn something...
This is significant because MS is trying to eliminate competition through FUD. Tolvalds' response was very restrained, imo. One thing you guys have to realize is that much of the tools developed for hacking the xbox/xbox360 are linux based. In fact, I think most of the firmwares are linux based. Just because you run a phatt souped up windows desktop and play an elite modded xbox 360 doesn't mean you don't use linux every day. Most routers, web servers and tons of embeded devices run linux, etc. This affects you much more than getting Ubuntu to boot on the 360 (which would be nice).
I personally like the 360, but MS as a company is a POS. They have to be kept in check or you'll be forced to buy a 360 if you want to play games.
You do realize the person that posted this article is one of those that "runs" this board. Perhaps your initial statement shouldn't be directed at those that run the board, but rather, those that frequent the board.
Post by: 47_M450N_47 on May 20, 2007, 12:30:00 AM
QUOTE(bigtrouble777 @ May 19 2007, 11:54 PM)
I didn't realize this board was run by 8 years old... haven't been around in a while. Read carefully and you guys might learn something...
I'm guessing you meant 8 year olds. Before you go judging people, get your facts straight. The admins here are not, as you state, 8 years of age. Many of the people who frequent this board are probably around that age, or if not they act that way at least.
To stay on topic; I think it's a good thing that MS is attacking Linux, it shows that they are considering them a big enough threat to try to kill (like every other company that has come against MS). Be afraid MS, be very afraid. The idea of patenting code is acceptable to an extent, but the idea of patenting generic ideas and such things that are key components of other would-be software systems is ridiculous. Linux will never die, it's practically impossible to stamp out open-source software simply because people will always make and distribute it. If they take away the ability to put it up on websites for download (like Linux is now) then it will simply move to IRC, Bittorrent, P2P (if anybody uses that anymore), unlisted servers, and all the other ways that the shady internet community operates.
If it wasn't for Linus Torvald, technology and the internet would be severely crippled by the pathetic attempts that MS has made at web/ftp software (IIS). Also all the small devices (firewalls, routers, switches, etc.) that control network traffic mostly run off of Linux based operating codes.
MS shut up and fix your overly-priced software you dirty communists.
Post by: ConteZero76 on May 20, 2007, 01:16:00 AM
Microsoft is struggling because Vista wasn't accepted the way Microsoft meant; Vista has been a huge flop compared to pre-launch internal analisys.
So Microsoft is firing to his competitor... Linux.
Real Vista competitor is XP, but Microsoft cannot shoot his foot...
Post by: The Zep Man on May 20, 2007, 12:41:00 AM
Post by: epsilon72 on May 20, 2007, 12:57:00 AM
QUOTE(47_M450N_47 @ May 20 2007, 12:06 AM)
MS shut up and fix your overly-priced software you dirty communists.
My thoughts exactly.
(especially the "communists" part)I saw a Digg article the other day that was saying that through a loophole in MS's deal with Novell, MS has inadvertantly made it so that they can't attack linux, ever....or something like that.
Here's the link: http://www.groklaw.n...070518124020691
I'm far too tired to read it right now, so I could be wrong. Enjoy.
Post by: xnoelahg on May 20, 2007, 01:53:00 AM
QUOTE(Maverick0984 @ May 20 2007, 07:37 AM)
You do realize the person that posted this article is one of those that "runs" this board. Perhaps your initial statement shouldn't be directed at those that run the board, but rather, those that frequent the board.
I don't think he was directly attacking the moderators of this forum, but rather replying to the commonts of "how is this xbox related?".
Microsoft and the Linux community have butted heads many times, largly due to all the monopolies that MS (previously) held, and other business tactics that eliminate competition almost as quickly as it can be started. It's not so much as PC vs Mac as people think, but rather "why should MS be allowed to be the only ones to have a significant presense on 'IBM' compatible systems?" debate.
I understand that the bulk of this board will swear up and down by what MS does, and for the most part, they're just fans of what MS brings them, but some of us don't want everything shoved down our throat and told it's our only optoin. Bringing OS's that allow the user to maintain full control over their entire setup to devices such as the 360 help with not only exposing people to the potential found within Linux, but also reminding the user that when you own a piece of hardware, why not take full control of it if there's any sort of benefit to the primary (or secondary) user(s)? This is NOW more than EVER something that should be exploited as MS is (now) profiting off each and every console sold (so they're not losing), and the 360 has the specs of a VERY nice PC. Imagine everything we've achieved on the XBOX, and now think how much further we can go on the 360.
Furthermore, MS even states that they want users to have a 360 as part of their media setup for regular use; implying that even if you're not a gamer, the 360 can serve plenty purpose. Why should we be limited to what THEIR OS provieds if we want to do more than gaming and LIVE with it? Considering the specs, you'd be shallow to want to keep it as 'just a gaming console', unless of course you've already got tons of computer componets at your disposal (and even then, it's still appealing for accomplishment purposes).
QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ May 20 2007, 08:49 AM)
Microsoft "communist" is something laughable at best...
They are the most lawyer drived, corporate oriented, aimed to profit company in the US.
Communism is long dead (and "original" communism, as in Marx, was a completely different thing from Cuba/URSS/China incarnations).
Shaddyup, ya commie bastad! j/k
Really, though, all those 'incarnations' you speak of were based off of Marxism; they simply changed a few things as they had an entire republic which would be affected by them. Of course, being money hungry and monopolistic in the sense that anything seen as a competitive threat is either bought or dragged through expensive litigation could easily be mistaken for a 'communist' act, as communism is all about monopolies.
Post by: LightningStruckMyXbox on May 20, 2007, 03:06:00 AM
Post by: sinister slipknot on May 20, 2007, 05:20:00 AM
QUOTE(bigtrouble777 @ May 20 2007, 05:54 AM)
I didn't realize this board was run by 8 years old... haven't been around in a while. Read carefully and you guys might learn something...
This is significant because MS is trying to eliminate competition through FUD. Tolvalds' response was very restrained, imo. One thing you guys have to realize is that much of the tools developed for hacking the xbox/xbox360 are linux based. In fact, I think most of the firmwares are linux based. Just because you run a phatt souped up windows desktop and play an elite modded xbox 360 doesn't mean you don't use linux every day. Most routers, web servers and tons of embeded devices run linux, etc. This affects you much more than getting Ubuntu to boot on the 360 (which would be nice).
I personally like the 360, but MS as a company is a POS. They have to be kept in check or you'll be forced to buy a 360 if you want to play games.
Whilst i agree that Linux is good, and very widespread (offering reliable web servers that im sure most sites use) This site isn't run by 8 year olds, this site is run really well by the respectable mods. Some members' opinions definently don't represent other members, or mods/admins opinions.
Post by: LightningStruckMyXbox on May 20, 2007, 07:17:00 AM
QUOTE(JohnnyVegas @ May 20 2007, 06:38 AM)
I don't like being refered to as the "little guy" in linux articles. Get a better tag to draw support from. The little guy are the consumers who care less about linux then anyone else.
Lets call a turd a turd. Linux is for hard core geeks that take os systems way too personal.
The "little guy" can go buy an acer laptop for $499 at a store with windows included. Don't think the "little guy" is getting all that screwed by MS.
You are very narrow minded if you seriously think Linux is for "Hard Core geeks". My mom uses it every day to surf the net, read her mail, and write stuff for her teaching job. Basic thing, all easily done without any of this mysterious "geek" stuff. I bet you haven't even tried a modern distro, have you? Stuff install just like it does in windows, point and click. And the fact that we never have to worry about viruses and spyware is even better. Less money to spend on virus protection that doesn't even work! Seriously, partition your drive and install a distro. Actually, you don't even have to. They have Linux on CD's and DVD's that can run without installing anything. LiveCD's. It's a risk free way to try something that it seems you are so already akin to.
Post by: bigtrouble777 on May 20, 2007, 08:17:00 AM
QUOTE(xnoelahg @ May 20 2007, 09:29 AM)
I don't think he was directly attacking the moderators of this forum, but rather replying to the commonts of "how is this xbox related?".
xnoelahg is correct. I was not attacking the admins.
QUOTE(phatNickels @ May 20 2007, 03:03 PM)
i have to be the ignorant prick here and say, are you serious?
Firmware has nothing to do with Linux... Firmware is written in assembly...
http://en.wikipedia....ell_(computing)
I use the Xenium chip which has a built in OS that uses many FOSS technologies, like samba for instance.
QUOTE(sinister slipknot @ May 20 2007, 12:56 PM)
Whilst i agree that Linux is good, and very widespread (offering reliable web servers that im sure most sites use) This site isn't run by 8 year olds, this site is run really well by the respectable mods. Some members' opinions definently don't represent other members, or mods/admins opinions.
You missed my point entirely. I have nothing against the mods. I was responding to the silly comments.
Post by: D3solator on May 20, 2007, 08:56:00 AM
Type "sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-9755-pkg1.run" to install the driver. NVIDIA now provides a utility to assist you with configuration of your X config file. Please see Chapter 3 of the README or run 'man nvidia-xconfig' for details on usage. Instructions for those wishing to edit their X config file by hand can also be found in the README.
Wtf is a X config file, hmm SOUNDS like hard core geek stuff to me. To this day i still run linux in a crappy res because its too complicated to install the drivers.
Now lets compare this to windows installation instructions:
Oh wait there is none because all you have to do is double click
on the icon, JUST like with any other driver for windows. There is no point in getting linux
because it is not user friendly, and everything it can do, windows can already do better. Yes i agree its good for servers but thats about it, for the average person it is complete garbage.
Post by: cory1492 on May 20, 2007, 09:26:00 AM
Add/Remove programs + driver manager equivalent.. all graphical, point and click, all without having to track down the manufacturers for driver builds that will work with your installation/hardware (chances are, the .run you have is not directly tested with your specific OS anyway, but is just the manufacturer's way of sharing the information so OS programmers can use it to make proper packages).
http://monkeyblog.or...ntu/installing/
this one even specifically says to NOT use CLI to install NVidia drivers for the GUI... because it does everything automagically from synaptic.
http://www.pclinuxon...iki/SetupNVidia
If a person never used windoze before, would they know what "add/remove programs" is, or where to find it? Would they spend 30sec on google to figure it out like I just did? Or would they look for a "geek" to do it for them?
Post by: bigtrouble777 on May 20, 2007, 11:28:00 AM
QUOTE(D3solator @ May 20 2007, 04:32 PM)
I have tried the latest distro of Ubuntu and it's pure garbage. Just to install the drivers you DONT point and click. One example would be Nvidia drivers for my graphics card. I downloaded the latest drivers for my card, and hmm look at the instructions:
If you took a few seconds to check out UbuntuGuide you'd see that all you need to do is type "sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx" in the command line or simply find nvidia-glx in Synaptic if you prefer a gui.
When you install the drivers through the repos you will periodically get driver updates pushed to you. In fact, Ubuntu will push updates of every application installed from the repos (which should be about 99% of your apps). I forget, does windows automatically supply security updates for every single app on the system?
I forgot, Ubuntu Feisty has the restricted driver app so you can get the 3d accellerated drivers installed in one click, without a reboot. And then you can enable 3d desktop effects with another click. How is that harder than having to navigate Nvidia's website and search for the proper drivers?
Post by: Millenia1x on May 20, 2007, 11:32:00 AM
this is a losing battle for ms\
i bet ms is pissed because linux is starting to outclass windows with linux mce and whatnot
Post by: yaazz on May 20, 2007, 11:58:00 AM
Linux really isnt as scary as it looks, its just different. Allow me to explan your problems..
sh means to run a script.
"sh SCRIPT.run" means run the script called SCRIPT.run
sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-9755-pkg1.run simply means run the install script for Nvidia drivers(although I agree, that is a *terrible* filename)
The closest windows equivalent is a bat file.
'man' is short for manual
so "man nvidia-xconfig" opens the manual for the program nvidia-xconfig
An X server is another way to say the Linux GUI window system. A windows example is you could call the window system for Vista, Areo.
as I said, Linux isnt overly complicated, its just different.
Also: As someone mentioned earlier, soon it wont matter how many patents MS says OSS infringes on. Because of various alledged patent infringments on both sides of the deal, two software giants, MS and Novell, recently signed a deal, similar to a truce, stating that each party was free to use the others patents they alledgedly infringed on. A lot of money was exchanged in the deal, with Novell obviously getting the better end of the stick because of the much larger Windows userbase.
This deal was effectively a loophole around the current GPL system, and the Linux community was pissed to say the least. A complete rewrite was in order for the GPL liscensing system to avoid this from happening again. In the new GPLv3, patent sharing is no longer implied. Instead, it was explicitly written out that any distributer of OSS must share his patents through a sort of "Liberty or Death" clause (i.e everyone gets to use the patent or nobody does.), effectively avoiding any future loopholes.
This isnt the most interesting part of the rewrite.
Part of the deal Microsoft made with Novell included vouchers that could be turned in for SUSE linux that were to be distributed by MS. This effectively makes MS a **distributer of Linux**! If any one of these vouchers are redeemed after GPLv3 comes into effect, MS instantly becomes bound to the terms of it, and All patents that Linux alledgedly infringes on must now be shared with everyone so it doesn't matter anymore.
.
In otherwords, the GPL group found a loophole around the original loophole that MS/Novell attempted to exploit!
Funny stuff.
Post by: Mr Invader on May 20, 2007, 01:43:00 PM
QUOTE(D3solator @ May 20 2007, 10:32 AM)
I have tried the latest distro of Ubuntu and it's pure garbage.
my friend has it on his laptop and has problems with it as well, he can't seem to find a driver for his wireless card, along with other issues
Post by: D3solator on May 20, 2007, 01:55:00 PM
Post by: LightningStruckMyXbox on May 20, 2007, 02:07:00 PM
Post by: epsilon72 on May 20, 2007, 03:30:00 PM
QUOTE(D3solator @ May 20 2007, 08:32 AM)
I have tried the latest distro of Ubuntu and it's pure garbage. Just to install the drivers you DONT point and click. One example would be Nvidia drivers for my graphics card. I downloaded the latest drivers for my card, and hmm look at the instructions:
Type "sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-9755-pkg1.run" to install the driver. NVIDIA now provides a utility to assist you with configuration of your X config file. Please see Chapter 3 of the README or run 'man nvidia-xconfig' for details on usage. Instructions for those wishing to edit their X config file by hand can also be found in the README.
Wtf is a X config file, hmm SOUNDS like hard core geek stuff to me. To this day i still run linux in a crappy res because its too complicated to install the drivers.
Now lets compare this to windows installation instructions:
Oh wait there is none because all you have to do is double click
on the icon, JUST like with any other driver for windows. There is no point in getting linux
because it is not user friendly, and everything it can do, windows can already do better. Yes i agree its good for servers but thats about it, for the average person it is complete garbage.
Type "sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-9755-pkg1.run" to install the driver. NVIDIA now provides a utility to assist you with configuration of your X config file. Please see Chapter 3 of the README or run 'man nvidia-xconfig' for details on usage. Instructions for those wishing to edit their X config file by hand can also be found in the README.
Wtf is a X config file, hmm SOUNDS like hard core geek stuff to me. To this day i still run linux in a crappy res because its too complicated to install the drivers.
Now lets compare this to windows installation instructions:
Oh wait there is none because all you have to do is double click
on the icon, JUST like with any other driver for windows. There is no point in getting linux
because it is not user friendly, and everything it can do, windows can already do better. Yes i agree its good for servers but thats about it, for the average person it is complete garbage.
Well, you can just keep on using windows for everything then. Have fun.
Post by: tomato72 on May 20, 2007, 04:14:00 PM
Yes, I know my way around a windows box, I am not just an idiot who doesn't know how to install drivers
Yes, this actually happened, not an elaboration
Don't claim that windows drivers are easier to install in every cases, because in most cases, linux drivers are just as easy as windows, and for the cases you find that its tough on linux, I'll find a case where its tougher on windows
Post by: bigtrouble777 on May 20, 2007, 04:29:00 PM
That's unrelated to the main discussion here. Anyone that's owned a modded xbox with Xport's emulators (and others) should understand the value of linux and OSS. Virtually the entire homebrew community is based on OSS. MS using FUD is an attack on the homebrew community as well. XBMC uses many OSS technologies that probably fall under MS' 'alleged' patent violations. I agree everyone should use the tools they feel does the job best for them, but being forced to use something is unacceptable when there are potentially better alternatives out there. For those of us that want to use Linux, we shouldn't be forced to use windows.
Post by: Altima NEO on May 20, 2007, 05:58:00 PM
Although I didnt understand what Linus meant by losing patent protection?
Post by: 0794 on May 20, 2007, 07:05:00 PM
Linux is a great OS and many enjoy using it. As for me (and most people with moderate computer knowledge) Windows just works fine for everything that I do - video/image editing, desktop server, office tasks, etc. I have tried several Linux distributions and it is not very easy to get everything working just like windows does on first boot. Stable and fast Linux is - easy to set up and use Linux is not.
Post by: damam on May 20, 2007, 07:40:00 PM
its just a matter of time for linux to become as easy to install as MS.
Post by: raufemann on May 21, 2007, 01:07:00 AM
MS monopoly will be down ppl, MS can't stop it, so say shits like that ... who like Windows, ok, but don't flame about linux, just be happy with all your cracked software that don't have support and crashes a lot of times all the day ...
Search Beryl on youtube, Vista sucks nears of this ...
Post by: pdottz on May 21, 2007, 04:44:00 AM
i have xp on my main box and aside from the os itself, everything i use on it is completely freeware or opensource.
my laptop has ubuntu studio installed on it and everything worked out of the box except for the bcom wireless card; and that ones not even linux's fault. bcom restricts it's drivers from being included in a distribution. so like even on windows if you didn't have the drivers, you'd still have to go searching for them.
gfx cards are something different, my onboard intel card didn't work properly so i searched in synaptic and have it working in 5 secs and installed. log out, log back in and everything working in full res.
community based. even the most noobish person can go and search a problem and find an answer if one exists.
ms has the knowledge base.
-do this.
-didnt work?
-do this.
-still no?
-call support.
-still doesn't work?
live with it.
people are afraid of change and always will be. i work with computers all day and you could consider me a hardcore geek; but i've converted countless people to install ubuntu on their old/new hardware (when vista proves to much of a pain to use) and they don't turn back nor regret the switch.
both os' have their strong point but just like firefox is slowly catching it's own percentage of usage, so is linux.
best way to defame and try to get rid of the competition? make outrageous patent claims.
oh, and lets not forget the insane amount of resources needed for the latest and 'greatest' incarnation of windows to even sluggishly open a window or program. try going to the store and picking up a desktop/laptop with anything less than 1GB of ram and see how long you last before wanting to take a hammer to it.
Post by: raufemann on May 22, 2007, 10:22:00 AM
QUOTE(pdottz @ May 21 2007, 08:20 AM)
i think the whols ms vs linux argument is stale and old already. ms is getting worried now with linux distros becoming increasingly easier to use and install. ubuntu coming first to mind.
i have xp on my main box and aside from the os itself, everything i use on it is completely freeware or opensource.
my laptop has ubuntu studio installed on it and everything worked out of the box except for the bcom wireless card; and that ones not even linux's fault. bcom restricts it's drivers from being included in a distribution. so like even on windows if you didn't have the drivers, you'd still have to go searching for them.
gfx cards are something different, my onboard intel card didn't work properly so i searched in synaptic and have it working in 5 secs and installed. log out, log back in and everything working in full res.
community based. even the most noobish person can go and search a problem and find an answer if one exists.
ms has the knowledge base.
-do this.
-didnt work?
-do this.
-still no?
-call support.
-still doesn't work?
live with it.
people are afraid of change and always will be. i work with computers all day and you could consider me a hardcore geek; but i've converted countless people to install ubuntu on their old/new hardware (when vista proves to much of a pain to use) and they don't turn back nor regret the switch.
both os' have their strong point but just like firefox is slowly catching it's own percentage of usage, so is linux.
best way to defame and try to get rid of the competition? make outrageous patent claims.
oh, and lets not forget the insane amount of resources needed for the latest and 'greatest' incarnation of windows to even sluggishly open a window or program. try going to the store and picking up a desktop/laptop with anything less than 1GB of ram and see how long you last before wanting to take a hammer to it.
For Broadcom Wi-Fi cards just search it on google NDISWrapper or FWcutter, work's 100% i have a Broadcom too and work's fine with WPA, WEP on ubuntu ... just try, it's really easy, both programs use your proprietary drivers for windows under linux ...
Post by: MrMikeJJ on May 22, 2007, 10:44:00 AM
When i installed ubuntu i needed the Ubuntu cd. and that's it. It did all the drivers itself.
QUOTE("Linus Torvalds")
the source code for Windows could be subjected to the same critical review that Linux has been, Microsoft would find itself in violation of patents held by other companies.
Well the windows 2000 source code is avaiable to download of the internet if you look hard enough (and if it is indeed what it says). Maybe we should point some open source guru's in it's direction, and see how many patents m$ have broken back in 2000. Never mind XP and Vista. 
Post by: 1nsan3 on May 22, 2007, 12:36:00 PM
go fuc* yourself M$!!!!
thats why there scared to release there source code, because there so many violations.
everyone violates patents, laws etc, so get used to it M$!!! ( bill you should be used to this by now! )
fuc*ing thief
Post by: Navillos on May 22, 2007, 01:45:00 PM
Post by: FCTE on July 03, 2007, 10:01:00 PM
I'm sure Unix, IBM, Xerox, PARC, and Apple have quite a few questions for MS about the origins of their so-called "original ideas" and patents as well. Everyone knows they stole everything and stabbed everyone in the back while doing so. Microsoft has been ripping off ideas from FOSS long after they initially stole all of their base ideas from all of those companies way back in the beginning, that's just part of the double edged sword of being an open source product and operating under the GPL. MS keeping their source code closed sure has kept it secure. [/sarcasm]
Imitation is flattery, but....................
MS is just pissed that their OS still sucks and that you need at least 3 different crutch programs just to keep their DRM hobbled bloatware running at all. Hell, they have created a whole industry of companies and products just to keep Windows running. As for their user base and it being superior because of sales numbers, most people use whatever comes on their computer because they have the IQ of a carrot when it comes to computers, most people have no idea how to install an operating system, that's why they just use what the computer came with............Windows............ and quantity is not quality.