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Off Topic Forums => General Chat => Politics, News and Religion => Topic started by: S1lenT_X on August 18, 2004, 05:39:00 PM

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 18, 2004, 05:39:00 PM

I was just wondering. I have a firm beleif in my mind as to whom Jesus is, and why he is important to me. However, i understand that different relgions, democracies, and even individuals have different ideas. I think it would be interesting to find out what people think.

I have almost certainly left out some possible ideas. I'm sure they escaped my mind. Please post your thoughts.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: gto65l on August 18, 2004, 05:55:00 PM

There are not enough negative words in all of the languages to begin to explain what I think of Jesus.

Other than that, I have no strong opinion.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 18, 2004, 06:03:00 PM

What do you mean gto65l?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: gto65l on August 18, 2004, 06:08:00 PM

I guess I can't really say anything about him directly. I never met him. I don't think he is anything more than any of the rest of us. But the eradication of entire cultures by his followers, I do have a problem with.

Sorry if you are offended, I'm very hostile about religion right now.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Raver758 on August 18, 2004, 06:10:00 PM

Eeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyy Its a JESUS!

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 18, 2004, 06:20:00 PM

No probs. everyone deserves an opinion. thanks for the input gto65l.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: AnThRaX on August 18, 2004, 06:27:00 PM

Xantium is jesus.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: thomes08 on August 18, 2004, 09:19:00 PM

jesus was a man

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: AnThRaX on August 19, 2004, 12:59:00 AM

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 19 2004, 02:43 AM)

I love how these kids on here like worship xbox modding and the people who started all of thise stuff. You know if you have a modded xbox it dosnt really amount to shit in the real world right? Think about that for a while

Good job assuming I don't have a life, yet your trying to make fun of me and insult me and call me young YET you are on his forum right now chatting it up and trying to insult yourself to make yourself feel better, what you didn't play catch with dad? Dropped on your head a few times when you were younger? Younger brother and sister got more attention then you did?

I don't believe in any jesus or god at all, and no don't say im athiest. I hate religion's period.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Chicken Scratch Boy on August 19, 2004, 01:35:00 AM

abc aaaand f

if i remember what the poll looked like

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: shanafan on August 19, 2004, 01:43:00 AM

QUOTE

I don't believe in any jesus or god at all, and no don't say im athiest. I hate religion's period.

That makes you atheist, Anthrax. Not believing in a higher power, like Jesus or a God, makes a person an atheist.

It's like saying.. I hate bananas, but don't say I don't like them

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: AnThRaX on August 19, 2004, 01:51:00 AM

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 19 2004, 03:23 AM)

lol no what im saying is you could have simpley stated hey i dont believe in jesus but instead you do the whole i and then all your little modding buddys will think your cool. Personly ill say straight up HELL YEAH I BELIEVE IN JESUS! Yeah i do stupid stuff like post on these forums yeah ill admit that haha. Im not proud of it now am I. (think about that to)

Well im sorry you feel that way. I dont see why you would hate religion when in general it helps alot of people. Sure you got some that dont. Think about this for a few moments.... But most likely you dont like it cause religion has a right and wrong .... am i correct? you wana do alota things that the bible aims as bad right? you ever wonder maybe those things make since? i mean think about it "thall shall not kill" that saying is based off religion.... if you based your life on nature then .... what wrong with killing? i mean animals do it all the time? "thall shall not steal" well if you also based everything of evolution and shit then life would be HEY TAKE WHAT YOU CAN TO SURVIVE!

Whats funny is religion is morals . This whole damned country is the way it is cause it was orginaly based of MORALS of religion.

So if you hate religion then what the hell do u base your morals on? science? i dont see anything in science telling u not to steal , or kill or have sex with other men and if science is just the study of whats around you then why not just do those things cause it damn well seems to be all I see.

I choose christ and i choose my religion.

It's not about right or wrong, it's complete bullshit. I am a person who must see shit to believe it.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: AnThRaX on August 19, 2004, 01:53:00 AM

QUOTE (shanafan @ Aug 19 2004, 03:46 AM)

That makes you atheist, Anthrax. Not believing in a higher power, like Jesus or a God, makes a person an atheist.

It's like saying.. I hate bananas, but don't say I don't like them

I meant don't consider or call me atheist. I hate anything to do with religions, and yes calling yourself an atheist has something to do with it!

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: shanafan on August 19, 2004, 01:54:00 AM

Anthrax, the problem is you are too young to be mature enough to have passionate and firm answer about religion. Trust me, being 16 and 23 is a big difference in one's life. You will understand and need God in your life.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: shanafan on August 19, 2004, 01:54:00 AM

QUOTE (AnThRaX @ Aug 19 2004, 03:56 AM)

I meant don't consider or call me atheist. I hate anything to do with religions, and yes calling yourself an atheist has something to do with it!

But that makes you an athiest.. oh well

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: MoeMan949222 on August 19, 2004, 02:00:00 AM

Hello,
I voted for Jesus is a prophet from god because, the Muslim religon believes that "god wasn't gaven birth to and doesnt give birth to". I use to live in my home country (Palestine) and visted many beautiful/religous places The dome of the rock, Betlhem, and more. They are incredible and make you think about religon a lot. I learned many things and looked into other religons but, the most one that seemed right for me was Islam. I studied it and as for Jesus is believd to bring the religon "Christianity" but failed (Many Prophets have been sent before). God "Allah" sent Mohammad as a Prohet to Bring the Holy Qur'aan. I am jumping from one to another but, as for Jesus, Maryum gave birth to him with no sexual intercourse as he was a Miracle from god.

Thanks

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: moistness on August 19, 2004, 03:35:00 AM

QUOTE (shanafan @ Aug 19 2004, 08:57 AM)

Trust me, being 16 and 23 is a big difference in one's life. You will understand and need God in your life.

Why will he? Is there something magic about being 23 that suddenly makes you get religion??

Didn't happen to me, I must be immune thank "god"

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: rms2001 on August 19, 2004, 03:40:00 AM

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 18 2004, 06:52 PM)

I put he is the son of god but still that makes him part of god. Trinity = The father , The son and the holy spirit.

The one thing I dont need right now is another argument but, why do you believe in the trinity?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: moistness on August 19, 2004, 04:06:00 AM

QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 19 2004, 10:43 AM)

The one thing I dont need right now is another argument but, why do you believe in the trinity?

So why start the argument??

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 19, 2004, 04:44:00 AM

Yes, i am sure that as people get older they need to find some sort of fulfillment in their life. Humans are naturally prone to seek a "god." This god need not, however, be a spiritual being.

I am not saying that stuff like this is unimportant and should just be overlooked to prevent trouble. However, you are definately not going about it the right way nagmine. God says to treat others not only with respect, but also in the way we would want to be treated. Refferring anthrax's choices in HIS life to a dog or animal is not exactly a subtle way of "teaching" or a kind way of "loving" your neighbours.

MoeMan949222, thanks for your response. There are a lot of people who see Jesus' death as a failure to do his job. His job, however, was not so much to bring Christianity, but to save us. (I beleive that your post says that he failed his mission to bring Christianity) He did so by dying on the cross after having never sinned. The only way that God says we can be saved, is through the death of one who has not. And to be picky, if his mission was to bring Christianity, in reality he did so. jesus came during a time of upheaval, Greek was the language which had become very common, and thus, the word which he preached spread quickly to the corners of the earth through his disciples. Now i don't wan't to say that your religion is wrong. This is just my opinion. I know for a fact that less radical Islam people are very peaceful, and live what seems to be better lives than many Christians.

And as for the radicals, all religions have had them. In fact, the Christians are the worst. Christians have persecuted other faiths countless times over the years. It is also true that many Christians have been persecuted by their own "brothers"

Oh yeah, and moistness, it isn't an argument. It is a discussion. Or at least it shouldn't be an argument anyway

. rms 2001, just wants to discuss.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: shavedrat on August 19, 2004, 06:40:00 AM

QUOTE (dman7 @ Aug 19 2004, 08:06 AM)

Well, I believe there are only two Gods....the God of Isreal(Jesus Christ) and Satan who also disguises himself as other Gods(Allah, Budda, ect.)

Made me laugh, sorry

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Dagoth on August 19, 2004, 10:10:00 AM

QUOTE

"Who is Jesus to you?"

he was a character in a book of stories that where handed down from generation to generation, long before the first bible was ever written.

where is the physical proof that he ever existed...

And why won't any witnesses come forward to testify

on a more serious note most people don't belive in religion, and I feel that it's up to the individual to discover their own "faith" in whatever shape or form that may be. Be it Christianity, Islam or Jimi Hendrix.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: nagmine on August 19, 2004, 10:45:00 AM

QUOTE

he was a character in a book of stories that where handed down from generation to generation, long before the first bible was ever written.

The old testament was written way way before jesus was even born ...... and in the new testament was written right after his death by people who knew him ..... not passed down over generation so your facts are completely out of whack.

now about facts about jesus im sure what you want is something thats not in the bible right even though the bible states true history of that time and has been seen true by even historians who even dont believe jesus is christ. Well there is stuff out side the bible Pontius Pilate wrote a letter to Tiberius Caesar about jesus about how he looked and everything. If you dont know who they are then you dont even need to be talking about history.so likewise You should look into history before making such comments.

Even most historians believe jesus was a real man.....

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: nagmine on August 19, 2004, 11:50:00 AM

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: ButtersB on August 19, 2004, 12:00:00 PM

He doesn't just talk about dressing up as a woman, he does dress up like a woman. And what, may i ask, is wrong with that?

Oh, and my source of 'religious thoughts' as you put it came from going to church and sunday school up until the age of about 13 until i realised i was wasting an hour or two of my life every week, and stopped. And before anyone whinges at me, i'm all for people being religious, more power to them i say. I wish i was religious, having the certain knowledge that i was going somewhere nice after i died would really lift my day. But, i'm a scientist at heart, and i don't believe, so there you go.

ButtersB

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: BLoTt0_AI on August 19, 2004, 12:26:00 PM

Jesus arrived in a spaceship.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: pepsik on August 19, 2004, 01:31:00 PM

Jesus is the name of my gardener, he has a wife named Maria and 2 kids. I think one of the kids is named Jesus Jr.

He's not a great man, he's not the son of god, not really a prophet either. If anything I'd say he was a hard worker.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: rms2001 on August 19, 2004, 02:14:00 PM

QUOTE (moistness @ Aug 19 2004, 05:09 AM)

So why start the argument??

moistness, was the question directed at you? No, I don't think so. The qurstion was to nagmine.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 19, 2004, 03:53:00 PM

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 19 2004, 06:48 PM)

uhh theres always been tons of proof that jesus was infact a real person. If you actully read the bible it will show you facts that actully happened back in those days.

so if i write a book about some completely fictional character, but throw in some historical and present day facts, does that make the character real?

whenever anyone asks any holy-joly to prove jesus existed, or that the bible is true, they always say read the bible- it doesnt make any sense

the proper response would be- the belief in jesus is a matter of entirely blind faith

do any of the ever increasing bible-basher population on this site have any idea on how many men, woman and children were put to death "in the name of god" in the old testament?

want an eyeopener (or rather earopener)? listen to some lectures by "infidelguy"

edit: just found this quote- not sure where its originally from tho

QUOTE

"Religion is a primitive form of crowd control that got way out of hand"

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 19, 2004, 04:08:00 PM

QUOTE

Tool- Opiate

Choices always were a problem for you.
What you need is someone strong to guide you.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
what you need is someone strong to guide you..
like me
like me.
If you want to get your soul to heaven
trust in me .
Don't you judge or question.
You are broken now
but faith can heal you.
Just do everything I tell you to do.

Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
What you need is someone strong to guide you.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
Let me lay my holy hand upon you.

My Gods will
becomes me.
When he speaks,
he speaks through me.
He has needs
like I do.
We both want
to rape you.

Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life.
Open my eyes, blind me with your light.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 19, 2004, 04:10:00 PM

QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 19 2004, 10:17 PM)

moistness, was the question directed at you? No, I don't think so. The qurstion was to nagmine.

as far as i can see he didnt answer your qurstion

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 19, 2004, 05:26:00 PM

QUOTE

the proper response would be- the belief in jesus is a matter of entirely blind FAITH

therebelious1, yes you are correct. While there may be some who argue differently, in the end, a Christian's choice to follow God is a "jump of faith." However, everyone must do so every now and then. I mean, the beleif that evolution is how humans have developed is a pretty major feat. I beleive that someone once tried to calculate the possibility of evolution leading to the developement of the human species. The first numberwas a one, and the second number was somewhere so high up in the millions, that the people calculating it decided to give up as a hopeless effort.

Yes, i well know how many people, innocents at that have been killed "in the name of Jesus." The "Holy" Crusades is one example of that. Thousands upon thousands of Christians died in order to "obey God's will." It makes me sick to think of the children's crusades, in which groups of children were sent to war. Only 1 out of ten survived. But on top of that, all through history, Christians have died for either "God's will" or what they beleive in. The Nazi massacre of the Jews is one sickening example of this. Hitler ordered the barbaric death of hundreds of thousands, in fact, millions of Jews. There is one reason for this. Sin. The corruption of mankind. Christians are not free from it either. That's why they say things like "sending thousands of children off to be massacred is God's will." NO! NO! NO! It is not God's will. But, the mind of man is corrupt. That is why we have chosen to live with Christ. For in heaven there will be no corruption, no sin, no pain, no evil. It will certainly not be an everlasting church choir however (If it is, send me straight to hell.) We are made in the same way that God is. But sin has taken much of this away. When we go to heaven it will be returned to us. We will be creative, inventive, and genius. There won't be a boring moment in heaven.

Oh yes, and your song... Well i don't know what to say. Neither do i see why it is important to this discussion in any way. Therefore, i will just ignore it.

Nagmine is spot on a bout the trinity. How we understand it is not important to being a Christian. besides, what he has stated is really just as far as the greatest theologian could put it. We don't and can't know everything about God. He is far far greater than us, and beyond our ability to understand. What we can understand, and accept, however, is his love, and forgiveness. For through Jesus death anyone, and i mean ANYONE can be saved. No matter what you have done, God will still love you. All you need to do is to ask his forgiveness, and Jesus' death on the cross will the be for you also.

And, nagmine, i just want to add that i agree about people treating life so worthlessly. But the problem is, there are sooo many people these days who live like that. You need to remember two things. They have probably experienced things which you haven't. Things which have effected what they beleive about life. Second, there are only a small majority of Christians (bible-bashers) over non-Christians in todays socitey. If we want to help others, there must be a better way than simply telling them they are wrong and must change. The Christian reputation has been shat to pieces by all kinds of things over the last few centuries. People don't often look too kindly on us. Making a ruckus will just confirm what people think. But, you need no more lecturing, lol, so thanks for your input, and thanks for the aopology. It's good to see people defending the Christian faith for once.

Thanks to everyone for their input. And i do mean everyone.

(P.S. say hi to your gardener for me pepsik, lol)

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: dman7 on August 19, 2004, 06:26:00 PM

QUOTE (shavedrat @ Aug 19 2004, 02:43 PM)

Made me laugh, sorry

Made me laugh, sorry.

-Dman

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: nagmine on August 19, 2004, 06:30:00 PM

QUOTE

He doesn't just talk about dressing up as a woman, he does dress up like a woman. And what, may i ask, is wrong with that?

QUOTE

Check your sources, please. He didn't dress like a woman, he dressed like any man did in their day. Some men wear earrings. Do you dress like a woman because you wear earrings? No. It's appropriate in our culture, while it may not have been in the past, and may not be in the future.

Everything you wrote was good but this was funny cause you got confused he wasnt talking about jesus he was talking about Eddie Lizard a comedian in the UK im in america and have heard of him but all ive heard is he dresses like a woman and makes a big deal out of it. Im sure you got confused with all the arguments in here.

Other then that Its great to see such a firm believer on here

to S1lenT_X yes I agree with you whole heartedly I am a man and i make mistakes. I need to learn to hold my tounge ( or my twitchy typing fingers

) I am still learning how to to be more of a christian such as talking to nonchristians and I do tend to get a little upset when I know I shouldnt . Thanks for not bashing me in return

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 19, 2004, 06:34:00 PM

Cheers m8

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 19, 2004, 06:36:00 PM

QUOTE

Muhammad forced his religion by the sword. He utterly destroyed those who opposed him.

you just admitted your "god" did the same

QUOTE

wtf?
eddie izzard does and has worn dresses etc
i think you have been drinking too much jesusjuice

am i the only one who is getting hacked off by these bible-bashing-choirboys?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 19, 2004, 06:42:00 PM

QUOTE

am i the only one who is getting hacked off by these bible-bashing-choirboys?

What do you mean? no-one is trying to "hack you off" (whatever exactly that means?

) It's just a discussion that you decided to join. There are going to be responses.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: MoeMan949222 on August 19, 2004, 06:50:00 PM

QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Aug 19 2004, 08:02 PM)

MoeMan, may I ask a few questions? If Islam is the correct religion, why does it fly in the face of everything Christ (Jesus) ever taught?

I mean Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek". He taught, "the greatest love is a man giving his life for one of his friends".

Muhammad forced his religion by the sword. He utterly destroyed those who opposed him. In the Koran and Hadith, he is recorded as telling Muslims to kill the Jews and Christians. Heck, the man even died in battle.

The Koran and Hadith record Muhammad as marrying many, many women, including a six year old girl.

Muhammad himself is recorded as questioning with his wife that he might be demon possessed...

Muhammad has a lot to gain from what he did. He gained thousands and thousands of followers, became incredibly rich, and ruled a growing empire.

Jesus gained death on a cross.

Muhammad taught that submission to God and the following of his commands and the good deeds that you performed was the way to get into heaven.

Jesus taught that no man could work his way into heaven, but God loved them enough that he sent himself to die on a cross for all men who would accept the gift.

So I ask you, which religion seems inspired by man, and which religion seems inspired by God?

The fact that in under 300 years, a persecuted religion glorifying the son of a Jewish carpenter that died on a Jewish cross became the religion of the pagan Roman empire is evidence enough. Think about it, the Jews hated Christianity, the Romans hated it. Jesus is a much less unattractive figure than let's say Jupiter or Saturn. The Romans had much more powerful gods, why choose a God from a nation which the Romans were disgusted by?

I think Christ's very words and actions are witness enough. You will not find a story in the history of man which shows more grace, intelligence, and love. To say that this incredible story was written by liars is incredible.....

Then again, there are very good witnesses for us these days. For example, a carving in Judea dating to the time period which says, "Pontius Pilate, procurator of the Jews". Pilate existed, who says Christ didn't?

The very fact that it spread at all is incredible. The claims put forth by the Bible about Christ were all easily verifiable. A lot of the events happened with Jerusalem, a 1 mile stretch of area. Surely the Jews wouldn't believe in this absolute lie that is so easy to check? You'll notice that the Jews of the era do not even deny the existence of Jesus, they simply claim that he was a sorcerer, and a bastard. They claim he is illegitamate, the disgrace him, but not once do they deny him. You'd think they'd know better than us, wouldn't they?

Check your sources, please. He didn't dress like a woman, he dressed like any man did in their day. Some men wear earrings. Do you dress like a woman because you wear earrings? No. It's appropriate in our culture, while it may not have been in the past, and may not be in the future.

I don't deny that at all. I agree that it happened. It's not wrong, though. You will find that any man, woman, or children put to death in the OT were put to death for their sins, and they were put to death because God warned them and they continued sinning, and he warned them again, and still they continued to sin, so finally, he did what he had to.

It was the case of any of the nations Israel displaced. These people sacrificed their sons and daughters in fires and worshipped sick, sick dieties. They were warned over and over but did not stop. Thus God gave them what they wanted.

I think that shows a lot of grace and justice. He gave them plenty of warning, and gave them more than a few chances to change. They didn't so he did what he had to. Does God not have the right to correct someone if they are wrong?

Is your real reason that you couldn't find scientific reason to believe, so you stopped believing, or is your real reason that you found moral objections to what you wanted to do, and found the scienfitic validity to not believe?

I'm just as logical and scientific as you, and I sure as heck wasn't gonna believe unless something was proven to me, but heck, I did my research, and I can honestly say, the evidence is there that God exists, and this evidence was further verified by God acting in my life. It is the due process of faith. God could come down and slap you in the face and it isn't proof that he exists, it's all what you believe based on the evidence....

Very well said, Silent, I"m not sure I could've said it better myself. It's interesting to note that while 6 millions Jews died in Nazi Germany, 3 million Christians of all races and nations died by German hands, and no one seems to make a big deal about that.....

Oh, and a funny story, kinda going along with pepsik's gardener. I have this friend named Rutul who is a really cool guy, and he is Indian, and his family is Hindu. Really Rutul doesn't believe in the Hindu traditions, heck, he doesn't really know what to believe, but by family he is one.

Anyway, one day I sat down with him to try and explain to him who Jesus was. The only thing around was this really old, nasty Bible with a bunch of pictures in it. So, I pick it up, and I"m leafing through it, and Rutul notices the picture on one of the front pages.

"Oh, I know who he is!" he says. "He works by the vending machines at Six Flags"...

Yes, Rutul, while he works at Six Flags, and he may work in gardens across the nation, Jesus is also the name of a man I believe to be God.....

That's a lot like the time I was debating with some people on some message boards and someone dead serious brought up the point that since Jesus and Mary were Hispanic names, the Bible couldn't be real....after all, how could these Mexican names be in the Bible?

I guess they might have a point there......(I might have to look into that

)

NO, no, no get your facts straight! who told you that? because, it is utterly BULL. We do not hate anybody! I guess people have a very bad picture of Islam. I wouldn't judge something unless i look into it. Mohammad is a good man, he did not marry a six year old girl (What the hell were you thinking). Tell me something, if somebody takes over your land and They start ruleing over you, wouldn't you hate them? Seriously. We do not hate Christians! we even respect that religon. Islam believes that the Holy Bible is a book from God.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 19, 2004, 06:51:00 PM

i'm sure when people become christians something happens in their brain which turns them into drones, they just roam the earth and deliver leaflets, preach on street corners and are completely closed to anything other than their programmed point of view- its just a bt frustrating is all. you call it a discussion, but you never really take anyone elses point onboard, its really just a sermon with the aim of creating more drones.

deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow

read the lyrics again, but try and read between the lines

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 19, 2004, 06:58:00 PM

QUOTE

the proper response would be- the belief in jesus is a matter of entirely blind FAITH

therebelious1, yes you are correct. While there may be some who argue differently, in the end, a Christian's choice to follow God is a "jump of faith." However, everyone must do so every now and then. I mean, the beleif that evolution is how humans have developed is a pretty major feat. I beleive that someone once tried to calculate the possibility of evolution leading to the developement of the human species. The first numberwas a one, and the second number was somewhere so high up in the millions, that the people calculating it decided to give up as a hopeless effort.

Didn't you read that, rebellious1?

I took your point seriously. I am NOT just an evangelical, wierd, religious, super holy Christian guy. Neither am i trying to "dronify" you. Besides, Christians are what they are because God has given us choices. I can choose to live freely from him, and suffer for all eternity in hell (That isn't black-mail from God, that's his ONLY option for non-Christians), or i can choose to follow him and be saved to live in eternity with God. That's my choice, which DOES require faith. I am not trying to change your mind. I just want to know what other people think.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 19, 2004, 07:20:00 PM

QUOTE

I beleive that someone once tried to calculate the possibility of evolution leading to the developement of the human species. The first numberwas a one, and the second number was somewhere so high up in the millions, that the people calculating it decided to give up as a hopeless effort.

you just invent some bullshit to try to prove there must be a creator

there is no need to calculate the probability of something that has been observed happening, its indesputable that evolution is happening around us, but as a christian its your duty to poopoo anything which seemingly proves a viewpoint of the church is wrong- its happened all throughout history, you people will never change

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 19, 2004, 07:26:00 PM

I was just showing you the difference between two choices. The first, evolution. To choose to beleive this is a bit of a "jump of faith." Personally i don't beleive it, not because it isn't assuredly incorrect, but because i chose something else. My choice, to you also seems unlikely. That is your opinion, to which you are entitled.

EDIT> true however, that i may have overstated myself by using the "bull shit" that someone tried to calculate the probability of evolution. For that i apologize.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 19, 2004, 07:56:00 PM

I guess you could say we are evolving. Just show an example, there are some great ones I'm sure. On the technology front we are doing great. But as for the quality of life, the life expectancy in North America, the wealthiest land in the world is decreasing. diseases and depression run rampant. Seriously, how are we better off now, because we have more technology and wealth? The hole in the ozone increases and natural disasters, starvation and poor quality of life loom. That. in itself, is depressing.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 19, 2004, 07:58:00 PM

lol, that's why we have xbox's m8!!! lol

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 19, 2004, 08:00:00 PM

I'm familiar with it. Order cannot come from disorder.
You're right, It does raise some questions about darwin theory.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: pepsik on August 20, 2004, 12:55:00 AM

QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 20 2004, 03:59 AM)

But as for the quality of life, the life expectancy in North America, the wealthiest land in the world is decreasing. diseases and depression run rampant. Seriously, how are we better off now, because we have more technology and wealth? The hole in the ozone increases and natural disasters, starvation and poor quality of life loom. That. in itself, is depressing.

Nice to see someone else notices. I'm sorry don't mean to offend but I believe King Bush Jr is convinced about some sort of biblical doomsday prophecy. Just seems odd that the world is at war again, and this time religious flags are being displayed by 2 of the combatants, Israel, and the radical Isalmics. America was started by protestants and is still dominated by the same right wing agendas, and I can't think of a more right wing president. 9-11 set his little born-again mind on mission. Holy War. It's fucking scary to think that thousands of people are dying everyday because they have taken a side in this and decided to waive the flags of the almighty.

If I learned anything from xtainity it was to be a good person, the ideas of the bible are just, but I've come to the realization that the ideas are just to guide us, there is no god, you can only hope that you are worthy to know him through your actions.

Religion is a filler for lifes questions, if you can't figure them out you can always just read this book. It's for the feeble minded who can't grasp that they control their actions, it answers the questions that everyone wants to know. In essence organized religion is the anit-depressant that keeps people level headed beacuse it gives them purpose. Metaphorically like that blankett kids never want to throw away when they are younger because they don't know how to sleep without it .

I guess what I'm trying to say is, just be a good person. The flags of religion are tainted with "sin" history tells us this. If there was a true path then we would all be saved.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 20, 2004, 02:01:00 AM

QUOTE

The flags of religion are tainted with "sin" history tells us this. If there was a true path then we would all be saved.

are you speaking about the crusades?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 20, 2004, 07:14:00 AM

). And yes, Christianity does fill that "hole" in human lives.

I don't say i agree with the part about no god, but i do like the answer. You have my respect (probably not that it would mean much to you, lol)

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 20, 2004, 07:48:00 AM

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 20 2004, 03:32 AM)

Hey therebelious1 last time I checked evolution was still a theory...... do u know what a theory is? well heres a clue its not fact.

but a theory is always based on observations which are facts, so its an explanation of what we see around us

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 20 2004, 03:32 AM)

So you believing in a theory is just as stupid as u think of us who believe in god.

it not that i believe in the theory of evolution, its that the scientific way of dealing with things like this is fair and entirely unbiased

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 20 2004, 03:32 AM)

You can not 100% show me that evolution is true. So i cant show you that god is real either. So the fact is we both are fallowing faith. You have faith that a theory is true and i have faith god is true.

theories by their nature can never be taken as truth, even the "laws" of thermodynamics is still a threory, every time a theory works out ok its given a bit more credibility, but if ever its proved wrong, then the theory is either modified to work again, or binned entirely- this is the basis of any scientific research. science is never a question of faith, when faith comes into it then objectivity is lost, and its no longer science

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 20 2004, 03:32 AM)

Think about that? Evolution is just another religion.

wrong, look up the definition of science (dictionary.com):

QUOTE

Science is literally knowledge, but more usually denotes a systematic and orderly arrangement of knowledge. In a more distinctive sense, science embraces those branches of knowledge of which the subject-matter is either ultimate principles, or facts as explained by principles or laws thus arranged in natural order.

wheres the part about it being a religion?

pepsik: good explanation, marx's exact quote was:

QUOTE

Religion is the opiate of the masses

he got it pretty much bang on

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 20, 2004, 09:05:00 AM

QUOTE

when faith comes into it then objectivity is lost, and its no longer science

therebellious1,
but where else does objectivity come from. Man's mind? What proof is there that man's mind is the ultimate source of objectivity? Where else? What we see around us? Again, what we see around us is processed by the brain. What proof do we have that the brain is correct.
Where does your objectivity come from? We choose faith in God. God becomes our source of objectivity? Science based on objectivity from God is just as "scientific" as objectivity which is derived from the mind of man.

Or do you have another answer? If so (and i am sure you do) please tell us.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 20, 2004, 09:26:00 AM

QUOTE (S1lenT_X @ Aug 20 2004, 05:08 PM)

Or do you have another answer? If so (and i am sure you do) please tell us.

nope, theres no point- its just gonna waste a few mins of my life, then you're just gonna tell me i'm wrong. so neither of us have anything to gain, and i could be doing more constructive things like trying to explain quantum physics to a friggin chipmunk

i'm starting to realise that christians have chosen to take fairytales and fiction as being truth, once that happens logic and reason are long gone- i hope you get a lot of enjoyment and fulfillment from your fairytales, but do me one favour- in future, please think twice about ramming religion down peoples throat; they may not want it

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 20, 2004, 09:40:00 AM

By the way rebellious1, do you realize that i AM only 15??? So teaching quantum physics to a chipmunk.....
Like i have said over and over... It's just a discussion... though it is probably getting a bit too heated now....

Thanks for being a bit more reasonable ButterB. And like you, neither do i have all of the answers. In fact, several of my posts previous to this, have had holes in them big enough to drive a truck through!

According to man's description of science, it requires objectivity in order to be "plausible." However, "faith" is very much subjective. I have chosen it subjectively in my mind.

I don't have a brilliant answer to that question. I have tried answering in several ways, but keep coming to a dead end. Right now it's 2:00 Pm, and i am as tired as anything... maybe i will have a better answer tomorrow.....

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: ButtersB on August 20, 2004, 11:47:00 AM

I believe that natural evolution will only take a species so far, and to take humans as an example, we have evolved far enough to be able to override some of our natural impulses. We started off as animals, and evolution has given us the intellect necessary to allow us to take ourselves to the next level, which is technological evolution. The next major steps in humanity have already started to take place. Genetic engineering and human/computer interaction will make us more than we currently are. As a race, we strive to be better than we are, and so when we saw birds flying, we had to make it happen for ourselves, and now we have computers that can do many things that we cannot, so we will begin to integrate some of those abilities into ourselves. There are other creatures in nature that can do things that would benefit us, such as some reptiles being able to re-grow limbs when cut off. Via scientific and technological methods, we will eventually work out how to do this as well.

Evolution has provided us with a marvellously constructed body and instincts, and its final gift to us was intellect. With that intellect, we have created our own morals. You say that religion has given us these morals, but i disagree. I believe that religion grew out of these morals, and the desire for people to follow the same moral code as you do (from the perspective of whatever group or individual created the religion).

My morals are my own and nobody elses, no religion tells me i have to be a good person, I am a good person (within my own moral code) because i want to be, not because i'm frightened of being sent to hell if i'm not.

ButtersB

Edit: Hmm, this seems to have become a discussion about evolution, oh well.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 20, 2004, 11:50:00 AM

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 20 2004, 06:48 PM)

To therebelious1

Since you believe in science and science only what makes you think killing is bad ? I mean if evoltution is true then what was wrong with hitler purifying his race so they could evolve faster. I mean isnt evolution all about survival of the fittest anyways. thats something that makes me laugh about science ... ofcourse im sure scrientist will say ooh killing is bad but hell show me some scientfic proof haha. The fact is the only thing that shows that killing is bad is morals caused by religion. Your basic morals not killing, not stealing , not raping where do you find these things in science. The fact is you dont cause in natures all those things happen all the time .

So where do your morals come from?

also how you had to hook up stuff in the dictonay to show me what science means because you became offeneded i was showing u how science was. lol still make it sound like its a religion. If scientist found that evolution wasnt true and found another idea , you would just jump to that with out even thinking. You still have to have faith . The fact that you ur self can not show that evolution is true and is just fallowing some other scientist example .... hmmm sounds alot like religion and yeah you have faith in that scientist

so are you saying man cannot be good to his fellow man without there being religious influence?

hence everyone who isnt religious is evil?

people dont follow "the scientist", they look at his work, and learn from his work, then maybe add to his work, its not like the scientific community follows one leader, but "[you] was showing [me] how science was" who am i to disagree

edit: dead on ButtersB

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 20, 2004, 01:56:00 PM

you have so many misconceptions about evolutionary science that seriously dude, it sounds like you heard all you know about evolution from a strongly devoted (read biased) christian or creationist- go read a textbook and make up your own judgements

how old are you btw?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 20, 2004, 02:39:00 PM

well you clearly didnt pay much attention

(in an ULTRA basic way) evolution theorises that apes and humans have common ancestors

that doesnt mean that in the evolutionary scheme of things than xxx became primates, then became humans and left some apes behind. it means that xxx changed into many different sub-species, two of which happen to be apes and humans.

maybe you should have taken evolution a little less personally

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: AnThRaX on August 20, 2004, 02:47:00 PM

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 19 2004, 10:24 AM)

Hey S1lenT_X yeah im sorry for my outburst. That wasnt very christian of me. I always have more respect for people who atleast try to learn. But when people just take life like anthrax i tend to get angry. When you say you hate religion its almost like saying i hate how this country is founded thus all my rights i have today. But even though people are like that you should still show them love and understanding Im we all get confused one time in our life.

so sorry to anthrax or anyone else i offended

That thing about the country thing is just BS, that's like saying everyone here should believe in GOD just because they live here. I know that the English came here to seek religion, but they were serious back then about it, unlike now, they were willing to sacrifice there own lives for religion. But, I don't believe I need god in life. I don't take LIFE for granted. Unless you can PROVE to me with FACTS not a big ass book that has been reedited countless times including King James (I think that was the King at the time) He pretty much reedited EVERYTHING. So anything about the Marriage and other crap that you seem to follow might be coming from him not just from your so called God.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: nagmine on August 20, 2004, 04:06:00 PM

people came here seeking freedom of religion. Thats what we got you have the right not believe anything I say. But the fact that they came here seeking freedom of religion gave you that right. You could be born in a islamic country and not have the right of believeing what u want. Thats my point you got to have a little respect .

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: AnThRaX on August 20, 2004, 05:13:00 PM

QUOTE (nagmine @ Aug 20 2004, 06:09 PM)

I agree but, you need to have respect to my point of views as well. Regardless.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 20, 2004, 05:27:00 PM

QUOTE

originally , yes. It is said that Apes reproduced until they were humans. But now when the say whales evolved into land animals...., well you have be a little skeptical about that.
And Dinosaurs, sprouting wings, it's simply not true. The theory goes that the scales evolved into feathers, did you know? There still hasnt been any findings of that. Well, there was one "Archoplyonix" or something. That was proven to be a fake made in china.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 20, 2004, 05:41:00 PM

you must have been reading the "creationist's handbook book of evolution" dude

when you think about the periods of time involved in evolution, then anything is possible

and to be perfectly honest, a dinosaur sprouting wings over a few million years is a bit more believeable than the earth as we know it today being created in just over a working week by some omnipotant bearded white dude

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 20, 2004, 11:13:00 PM

I'm just saying there has to be a better explanation than sprouting wings.

It is neccesary to criticize what is generally accepted. All these "scientific leaders" are on the same payroll. The moment they stop beleiving, they lose their job. You can't pass most classes if you don't accept evolution. Also, not biblical creationism, but Intelligent Design is now a huge movement in the scientific community.

Omnipotent beardead old man? lol...let's get real for a second. Forget the pearly gates and winged angels. That is all just artisitic interpretation from the renaisance period.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 21, 2004, 06:30:00 AM

no no no dude, you have it all wrong. thats a very cynical view of the scientific community- much like if i were to say that all christians are "holier than thou" arrogant hypocritical con-artists.

fair enough, in debating and disecting scientific arguments you will either strengthen them or raise questions about their validity- that is required, but the way the creationists do it is underhand and unfair. they use the public's ignorance of scientific methods as ammunition, they pounce on disagreements between scientists, and feed on anything which can be used to erode the public's confidence in scientific method.

renaming creationism to intelligent design is just that, renaming it. the idea and tactics are the same. creationism just (and rightly so) got a bad name so the church decided to remane it.

if the ideas of creationism and intelligent design are entertained for just a moment, the implacations would be world changing; the sciences of geology, palenotology, archaeology, cosmology and nuclear physics would have to be totally re-written in order to have some continuity between scientific disceplines.

this kind of thing has been attempted since the dawn of science, the church tries to tell the scientists what they see in their experiments. maybe the whole world should just abandon any research altogether, scientists could just read the bible and find the actual answers they were looking for.

also its worth adding that modern creationism is mainly an american problem, the rest of the world are totally amazed that a technologically advanced nation still believe in the literal translation of the bible- its pretty worrying

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Baner on August 21, 2004, 08:08:00 AM

QUOTE

it not that i believe in the theory of evolution, its that the scientific way of dealing with things like this is fair and entirely unbiased

What proof do you have that we came from a single celled being, with nothing else around us. doesn't your theory of evolution contain just as much fact as religion?

QUOTE

and to be perfectly honest, a dinosaur sprouting wings over a few million years is a bit more believeable than the earth as we know it today being created in just over a working week by some omnipotant bearded white dude

How about the Big Bang theory... correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it state that the entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Then, for no apprent reason, it exploded, raising the temperature from nothingness to over a trillion degrees celcius. Inturn creating Time and Space, which before this did not exist, and our whole Universe? Seems a bit farfetched does it not? How about this... How did the original universe (which was compressed to the size of an atomic nucleus) get there?

Bearded white dude? Okay... So you've seen painting of God, that portray him as White (believed to be the superior race at the time). dude? Again.. males were believed to be superior, therefore he was protrayed as a male. Bearded... now I'm confused... Where'd you get this from? That pic of Holy Toledo? Cause that's a reliable source and all. Why don't you try reading through the bible? I'm not trying to change (or give you) your religion, but just read it as a scientific piece of work from many centuries ago. You seem to like science.

Doesn't the bible state that God is perfect? So why would he be white? Don't we get sunburns easier(bad example...but just showing a flaw). Male... Aren't we on average less flexible than our female counter-parts... higher center of gravity.. the list goes on. The same can go for females, weaker on average.. so-on and so-on. I could go through and list all races and blah blah blah... but it'd be pointless...

To sum up that last paragraph, God has no race, gender, or form. He is God, nothing is like him, or can be like him.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: ButtersB on August 21, 2004, 08:30:00 AM

ButtersB

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Baner on August 21, 2004, 08:48:00 AM

Hmm where to start...Ok this one caught my eye...

QUOTE

Ok, i'll counter that by asking you how God got there? And if you say 'he's always been there', then i'll just answer by saying 'the universe has always been there', which is equally as ridiculous.

God isn't a touchable entity much like our universe is. He isn't something you can see, touch, smell... all the rest... As shallow as it may sound, but something that doesn't take up space, doesn't need space to exsist. I know, that last sentence sounded like crap... I'll come back to this descussion when I have more resources i can use. (at work, half of the internet is blocked, along with ALL search engines...damn IT)

QUOTE

We have some evidence that makes it seem like evolution is the answer. You have no evidence that a creator did it all.

It's hard to see the same single celled organism created everything that is around us, mainly because I can't see the true relation between us and primates. If we did eveolve from a form of Primates, then why don't the middle stages of the evolution still exsist? If your answer is that they weren't a superior form... then why do monkeys and gorillas exsist, rather than all of them evoling into the more superior human? And to a futher extent... I don't see the relation of a plant and a giraffe.

If I missed any of your points below, just tell me.
(I get off work in 3 minutes, so this may be my last post till monday afternoon, unless I get bored later today)

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 21, 2004, 10:21:00 AM

QUOTE (Baner @ Aug 21 2004, 04:11 PM)

Bearded white dude? Okay... So you've seen painting of God, that portray him as White (believed to be the superior race at the time). dude? Again.. males were believed to be superior, therefore he was protrayed as a male. Bearded... now I'm confused... Where'd you get this from? That pic of Holy Toledo? Cause that's a reliable source and all. Why don't you try reading through the bible? I'm not trying to change (or give you) your religion, but just read it as a scientific piece of work from many centuries ago. You seem to like science.

Doesn't the bible state that God is perfect? So why would he be white? Don't we get sunburns easier(bad example...but just showing a flaw). Male... Aren't we on average less flexible than our female counter-parts... higher center of gravity.. the list goes on. The same can go for females, weaker on average.. so-on and so-on. I could go through and list all races and blah blah blah... but it'd be pointless...

To sum up that last paragraph, God has no race, gender, or form. He is God, nothing is like him, or can be like him.

tbh i dont care what the bible says god is

and my describimg god as "a bearded white dude", wasnt meant to be the point of the sentence. re read it and see if you can figure out what was

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 22, 2004, 01:04:00 PM

QUOTE

Well, I believe there are only two Gods....the God of Isreal(Jesus Christ) and Satan who also disguises himself as other Gods(Allah, Budda, ect.). I follow the Lord Jesus Christ. It really bothers me how America started out as a Christian country but now has been diluted by heathan religions and Gods.

[Sarcasm]Heil Hitler![/Sarcasm]... go to Germany and hang out with ur pals... you don't deserve to live in tha US.

QUOTE

uhh theres always been tons of proof that jesus was infact a real person. If you actully read the bible it will show you facts that actully happened back in those days. Also this comment is really funny

Bible and Facts just don't really fit in tha same sentence... kinda of an oxymoron(sp?)... I think he could've been a real person... tha same kind of person that sits in front of tha local 7/11... but a person none tha less. And he was crucified because he preached beliefs that tha rulers, at tha time, didn't like. So killing him was tha thing to do in those times. He died out of concequince(sp?)... not because he was dying for YOU... he didn't know you.

QUOTE

Also dosnt eddie lizard talk about dressing like a woman? hmmm yeah thats the kinda person everyone should listen to

And that makes him lesser of a person?... He's funny as hell. You SHOULD listen to him.

QUOTE

I could show you that it's prolly 89% true (and growing)... religion... you can show me it's 10% true (and declining). I'm not folowing faith. I'm following facts that are presented to me. I'm not assuming stories that were supposedly written (then translated... and translated again... and then who knows how many times that was repeated) 2000 years ago.

QUOTE

But as for the quality of life, the life expectancy in North America, the wealthiest land in the world is decreasing.

HAHAHAHAHAHA..... ummmm, tha last i time I checked, tha life expectancy is rising. The average life span of a person in the US is somewhere around 75... where as 100 years ago, it was somewhere below or around 60 (I'll have ta recheck that sometime so I can get the exact numbers)

QUOTE

Religion is a filler for lifes questions... (saving space) ...don't know how to sleep without it .

Couldn't have been said any better (Or not by much, lol)

QUOTE

Again, what we see around us is processed by the brain. What proof do we have that the brain is correct.

QUOTE

Since you believe in science and science only what makes you think killing is bad ? I mean if evoltution is true then what was wrong with hitler purifying his race so they could evolve faster. I mean isnt evolution all about survival of the fittest anyways. thats something that makes me laugh about science

QUOTE

So where do your morals come from?

In terms of evolution and nature there was nothing wrong with it (Except for tha fact it wasn't nature and it was all based on RELIGION!... Tha Christian faith too, if I remember correctly)... But ever since evolution, a lil thing called emotion developed, and along with emotion, comes morals. But no one seemed to understand that... so where were they to get the information as to where this came from, when they didn't have science?... That's right... tha bible.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 22, 2004, 07:13:00 PM

QUOTE (Owtlaw333)

QUOTE (Mr. Chips)

But as for the quality of life, the life expectancy in North America, the wealthiest land in the world is decreasing.

what I meant to say, was unhealthiness and obesity are worse than ever. Try living that way. These are real killers. Heart disease etc. The threat is real. In those statistics you heard, it isn't likely that the information gathered correctly represents the current state of unhealthiness.

QUOTE

he didn't know you.

he does know us. Right here:
John 8:19
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

that says him and god are the same. He knows you, you chose to deny him.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: moistness on August 22, 2004, 07:27:00 PM

QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 21 2004, 12:30 AM)

Um, chicken legs have scales!

And doesn't pterodactyl or pterodon ring any bells to you?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 22, 2004, 09:01:00 PM

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: moistness on August 22, 2004, 09:16:00 PM

QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 23 2004, 04:04 AM)

pterodactyls don't have feathers.
And chickens don't fly.
And their legs are scaly, what are you suggestingt?

Pterodactyl=dinasaur with wings!

Did scientists make those up?

chickens legs show part of evolution in that they have skin which closely resembles scales (they are not true scales, they have evolved)

Oh sorry, yeah chickens dont fly, that must prove gods existance, sorry my mistake!

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 22, 2004, 10:06:00 PM

QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 22 2004, 07:16 PM)

So ur telling me that life expectancy changes within a period of 5yrs (maybe 10 at most)?... I don't think so. Obesity has not gotten worse over tha last 20 years... ur just more aware of it because you get ads shoved down ur throat saying you need ta change ur ways by eating less carbs, less fat, less calories, because it's some "HUGE" problem. All obesity really is (in terms of recent days) is a way to make money off people like you who think it's some kind of epidemic.

QUOTE

... that made me laugh

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 23, 2004, 01:33:00 AM

words being put into my mouth, from stupid people like you two. Who don't know me. I have seen your epidemic, it IS one don't deny it. I have visited and seen your kids running around (more like bouncing)
I never fell for that low carb craze. I don't think that chickens not flying proves gods existence. I'm not a sucker, I hate advertising, I also hate it when people assume too much.
Moistness, why do you keep rolling your eyes? at your own comments! Wings dont mean feathers on dinosaurs. I am not denying that, kid. Although sure scientists make stuff up. It's part of a theory process. And so what, the legs on chickens are not not true scales, in fact it is more like skin. So that is REVERSE evolution, you stand a beter chance with scales than hard skin. Come to think of it, having fur is an advantage too, so us "losing" it through mutation is REVERSE as well. We don't stand a good chance stark naked in the north pole my friends. An ape might.
PS I mentioned life expectancy...but I was more talking about the quality of life.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 23, 2004, 02:23:00 AM

QUOTE

Although sure scientists make stuff up. It's part of a theory process

ha ha you sound so authoritative there, like you know what you're talking aboot

QUOTE

And so what, the legs on chickens are not not true scales, in fact it is more like skin. So that is REVERSE evolution, you stand a beter chance with scales than hard skin. Come to think of it, having fur is an advantage too, so us "losing" it through mutation is REVERSE as well. We don't stand a good chance stark naked in the north pole my friends. An ape might.

you really have been reading "the creationist's handbook of evolution" havent you? evolution's main 'engine' is natural selection. this is based on the traits of animals which make them best suited for their environment. there arent many humans at the north pole, but the few that are there have a different physique and have traits that make their life easier in their environment.

all humans are covered in thin fur- its part of the definition of being a mammal. if we had thich fur, then we'd be too hot, so again humans, being in temperate regions of the planet have changed to be better suited to their environment.

do you dispute this? or do you maintain (in the face of facts which are almost common knowledge) that every human on the planet are as they were when god made two humans in his image about 6000 years ago?

on a side point, have you any idea how many genetic mutations we'd have if we all had the same two common ancestors? or do you dispute the premise of genetic mutations in its entirity?

a challange: please answer these questions without quoting from the bible- as is it not the validity of the bible we try to prove here? coroborating (sp?) evidence my man

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: melon on August 23, 2004, 07:33:00 AM

You raise a good point there rebelious. If all humans come from Adam and Eve (which is completely retarded), why are humans today different colours and sizes?

Different races are better adapted to their enviroments, hence Africans are black as this skin colour is better suited to hot temperatures. Its why people in England are white, because its cold.

I could go on and question why black people are better sprinters or why in proffesional sports there is a far higher percentage than in society.

Or why Arab people are hairier than europeans (genetically you in the US are european), as that would be more beneficial in desert like conditions.

This is evidence of evolution, people have adapted to their surroundings.
I would like anyone to give an alternative explanation using fact not an old story book.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Baner on August 23, 2004, 12:10:00 PM

)... We just don't believe that it's the way we got here in the first place. You may want to do some research before you make assumptions about people... you won''t get far assuming. Alternative Explanations(edit:thinking about something and typing something else... should make more sence)... there are none. We have proven that animals evolve... we just don't know where we came from.

I don't use the bible as a source of "facts". I believe the bible is a book of ethics and rules for living your life. Much like a book of answers to your problems, and examples of different situations.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 23, 2004, 12:43:00 PM

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 23, 2004, 12:45:00 PM

QUOTE

I believe the bible is a book of ethics and rules for living your life. Much like a book of answers to your problems, and examples of different situations.

this was discussed earlier; religion is a form of crowd control.

QUOTE

Alternative assumptions... there are none.

so the choices are between
* a theory built up to explain what we see using logic and common sense
* a text written a comparatively short time ago, which has been translated, edited and re-edited countless times

seroiusly there are fairly valid arguments against evolution- and i dont mean ones that creationists and other christians pounce on and use as ammunition. i think its only fair that these arguments are found out by people who study evolution in depth (btw i dont claim to be one of those people!)

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 23, 2004, 12:54:00 PM

QUOTE

within the first few generations, all the offspring would be sterile and the story would end.

NNT! wrong!

you are working with the assumption that the original human genteic code contained errors as it does now. It did not. Before the original sin (bear with me for a sec) human kind was perfect, no death, in perfect peace with God. Afterwards, the code became spoiled. But it was still ok to "inbreed" as you call it, God instructed the first people to do it. It did not cause mutations as it does now. You look at other areas of the old testament God says not to sleep with your sister, etc, obviously there were problems with bad genetic code causing mutations, as well this is low God lets us see it is wrong for inbreeding because it is no longer neccessary.

I also want to reiterate that a SINGLE CELLED organism is more complex than a space shuttle. This is why it could not arise by chance.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 23, 2004, 12:54:00 PM

QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 23 2004, 08:46 PM)

melon, you say adam and eve is retarded,
then you cite SKIN COLOR as evidence for evolution?!!
HAHAHAHAA

AS FOR MUTATION:
Mutation has been DISPROVEN as a facet to Evolution. IT DOES NOT create new features on an animal. Haven't you seen that mutations COPY code that already exists, eg, you get 4 eyes, or 2 heads, NOT WINGS!
Check out chernobyl for example. You will see mutation HINDERS growth and advancement. Just like the theory of Evolution HINDERS modern science. I'll give you an example: A new species of fish was found, fossilized. It was dated to be 40 million years old. Then they found the exact same species swimming in a lake nearby!! OOPS!!! there goes your carbon dating method!!!! And can you beleive their reaction?!??! "Wow, isn't that amazing, it survived here for 40 million years..."

you my friend have a VERY limited knowledge of evolution and mutation.

how the hell did you come up with the "fact" that mutations copy bits already there

evolution is based on RANDOM mutations, random ones are just that, RANDOM. as in not based on anything at all

evolution hinders modern science eh? i'd say its creationists that hinder kids being taught evolution properly in school, which in turn propogates the non-science of creationism or "intelligent" design

again you arent listening and taking in what anyones saying, animala adabt to their environment, it could be that your (probably invented) fish was well enough suited to its environment so as to not need to change physically at least.

so your fishy story buggers up carbon dating eh? you should probably start re-writing nuclear physics then, i bet it'll take you a while. if i were you i'd start reading up on the theory behind carbon dating, it really isnt that complex

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 23, 2004, 01:01:00 PM

QUOTE

so your fishy story buggers up carbon dating eh? you should probably start re-writing nuclear physics then, i bet it'll take you a while. if i were you i'd start reading up on the theory behind carbon dating, it really isnt that complex

radiometric carbon dating is flawed at best.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 23, 2004, 01:03:00 PM

QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 23 2004, 08:57 PM)

you are working with the assumption that the original human genteic code contained errors as it does now. It did not. Before the original sin (bear with me for a sec) human kind was perfect, no death, in perfect peace with God. Afterwards, the code became spoiled.

wasnt the original sin committed by eve

afaik there were only two humans about at that time

QUOTE

But it was still ok to "inbreed" as you call it, God instructed the first people to do it.

where the hell is that in the bible?

QUOTE (God_The_Almighty @ Aug 23 2000BC, 08:57 PM)

Thou shalt get jiggy with thine siblings, it be fun for all the family

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 23, 2004, 01:07:00 PM

QUOTE (Mr. Chips @ Aug 23 2004, 09:04 PM)

you say I don't have an understanding of mutation, when it is clear that I do, and I know plenty on the subject. Mutations copy? of course buddy!!
What, you say they just randomly assemble bits that make up the blueprint of a wing??
Go see a geneticist, he will tell you you are wrong!
Do you understand how complex the design of a wing is??! Get outta here, I think your lunch break is over kid!

radiometric carbon dating is flawed at best.

well from what you type its clear you dont
and you obviously cant read either

it has never been said that instantly there was a wing just out of nowhere
the periods of time evolution needs to make changes are so vast that we cant hope to comprehend them, i can t remember much of 10 years ago let alone think what 10 or 100 million years is like

prove that radiometric carbon dating is flawed at best, go on, if its such a fact then demonstrate it- anecdotes dont count

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 23, 2004, 01:11:00 PM

"wasnt the original sin committed by eve?"

well, they both sinned really

"Thou shalt get jiggy with thine siblings, it be fun for all the family"

lol

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Mr. Chips on August 23, 2004, 02:26:00 PM

I could be wrong, yep.
I want to see rebellious admit that too.
It is hard to continue arguing with someone who's ideas are in complete contradiction. I get upset too, because I don't have the money backing up my theory as Evolution's proponents have...it's not an attack, it's just a fact.
With that aside... you weren't being nasty, ButtersB.
that's a good question.

And I beleive RCD to be flawed because it is based upon an assumption that the earth is hundreds of million years old. I don't accept that because I have seen otherwise pointing to the age of the earth to be much younger. That is just my beleif, if you disagree fine. Please don't get worked up, or ask for proof. There is no prooving what is in direct contrast to your thinking.

Much love, Chips

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: melon on August 23, 2004, 02:39:00 PM

QUOTE

you are working with the assumption that the original human genteic code contained errors as it does now. It did not. Before the original sin (bear with me for a sec) human kind was perfect

Am i right in saying that eve was created with one of adams ribs?
You cant honestly belive that can you?

Mr Chips you mock me but provide no evidence to counter what we are saying. All you are doing is belittling us and exaggerating what is being said. Nobody stated that one day a reptile was born with feathered wings.

Carbondating is a simple premise which is scientifically sound. You ridicule scientists when a fish hasnt changed in 40 million years but are sceptic over evolution, that is a paradoxical point of view. Take crocodiles, they have not changed in about 100 million years because they are a perfect design for there surroundings, while other creatures such as giraffes or camels have apapted to ensure they can survive.

In fact evolution can be proved easier today. Rapidly changing habitats (forcibly changed by man), are leading to the extinction of many species. This is because animals are not able to adapt in time to there new surroundings. Species that have been around far longer than man and have survived drastic climate changes in the past that have happened over many, many years are now dying out.

Stop lowering this debate and try and stick to facts in future

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Baner on August 23, 2004, 02:51:00 PM

) I admit defeat

Since so much has happend in the last hour... I'll just disect the post directed towards me...

QUOTE

you speak about long odds that the human race evolved by chance

You want to speak about odds? How about the Big Bang Theory? I think butters stated the chance of that happening. And if we did come from the same organism... wouldn't that be inbreeding too? We all have the same ancestor do we not?

QUOTE

Melon proposed a point in the argument and backed it up with reason and logic. many christians would do well to learn from the example.

Logic? Saying we don't believe in evolution? You have to be stupid (sry Chips) to believe that it's impossible to evolve. You can see it in many birds and other animals... it's quite evident.

QUOTE

this was discussed earlier; religion is a form of crowd control.

Crowd control? Telling people that killing each other, stealing, raping, (the list goes on) in order to excel in life is a bit more than crowd control.

QUOTE

so the choices are between
* a theory built up to explain what we see using logic and common sense

The idea that we evolved form a single organism is as logic as any of our arguements.

(done for the day, be back tommarrow at 1:00

)

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 23, 2004, 03:25:00 PM

QUOTE

The Panda's Thumb is dedicated to explaining the theory of evolution, critiquing the claims of the anti-evolution movement, and defending the integrity of science and science education in America and around the world.

i guess you christians will think its just a bunch of scientists teaming up to delude the general public and secure their jobs

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 23, 2004, 05:52:00 PM

QUOTE

evolution hinders modern science eh? i'd say its creationists that hinder kids being taught evolution properly in school, which in turn propogates the non-science of creationism or "intelligent" design

hmmm, yep. it sounds like those atheist schools are REALLY doing a good job doesn't it...

Psalm 139: 14a "I praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made;"

God made all living organisms including man with this genome pool.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 23, 2004, 07:03:00 PM

QUOTE

hmmm, yep. it sounds like those atheist schools are REALLY doing a good job doesn't it...

i'm quite insulted by this, but i suppose its clearly you who havent had an unbiased education- i offer you my pity

QUOTE

Psalm 139: 14a "I praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made;"

God made all living organisms including man with this genome pool.

so you think the psalm proves the statement?

are you sure you're 15? did you get daddy to type the above for you? or is it the superior christian education coming into play?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 23, 2004, 07:35:00 PM

QUOTE

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html

Damn! Why did i know that "English Peppered Moths" were going to come into this! lol.

(And in response to your insult

: No, dad doesn't know much about genetics

, he was taught in a non-Christian school) And besides, i was just joking around about schools. There are plenty of good theist schools from which great scientists have come.

Oh, and I didn't need Psalm 139 to prove what i said. I already provided plenty of info prior to that. It just confirms in my mind that God is not just some "omnipotent bearded white dude." He is a wise, creative, loving God.

"http://www.godandsci...n/evol1999.html
Natural selection's most famous example, the peppered moth, based upon bad science
The "evolution" of the peppered moth, Biston betularia, whose story is recounted in almost every textbook on evolution, now appears to be based upon spurious data. According to the standard account, only one version of Biston existed before the mid-19th century: a white variety, peppered with black spots. During the Industrial Revolution its numbers plummeted because it became easy prey for birds as it rested on the pollution-blackened trunks of trees. In its place a mutant, pitch-black form of the peppered moth began to thrive, as it could rest on tree trunks without fear of being eaten. Precisely as predicted by Darwin's theory of natural selection, this more fit mutant moth rapidly outnumbered the white version, reaching 100 per cent levels in some industrial areas. However, during the 1950's, naturalists discovered a resurgence of the white variety, thought to be the result of the Clean Air Acts. Scientists soon discovered that the white variety flourished again well before the return of pollution-free trees, while the black type continued to thrive in areas unaffected by industry. In addition, experiments showed that neither variety of moth chooses resting places best suited to its camouflage. Despite 40 years of effort, scientists have seen only two moths ever resting on tree trunks - they never have landed consistently on tree trunks, but hide under branches! It looks like the evolution textbooks will have to be rewritten. Evolutionist Richard Dawkins dismissed the new data, saying that, 'nothing momentous hangs on these experiments.' "
"http://www.projectcr.../v9n2-meek1.htm
More recently the peppered moth hoax was exposed in which moths were glued to trees in order to trick people into believing that they lived there and that polluted air had caused a change in their color"

Your site on mutation has based its evidence on inaccurate scientific facts.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 01:30:00 AM

QUOTE

Crowd control? Telling people that killing each other, stealing, raping, (the list goes on) in order to excel in life is a bit more than crowd control.

i must have missed the part where christianity patented being good to one another, there doesnt seem to be anything here. anyone have any resources i'm missing?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 24, 2004, 02:24:00 AM

QUOTE

i must have missed the part where christianity patented being good to one another, there doesnt seem to be anything here. anyone have any resources i'm missing?

Loving one another is what God tells us to do again and again in the Bible. He says that just as he loves us, we must love, and be good to others. When Jesus was on earth as a man, he told this to people countless times. As Christians it is our responsibility to show others what God is like throught the way we act. (That's why i had a go at Nagmine earlier.) Missing something? Yes you are! It's called the Bible. THE foundation of the Christian faith, and religion.

Just as i need to research on evolution (on an unbiased, as well as biased material) before i can argue with an evolutionist, you need to know about the Bible. At LEAST the basics of Christianity before you argue with Christians.

Cheers dude,

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 24, 2004, 02:37:00 AM

QUOTE

It is hard to continue arguing with someone who's ideas are in complete contradiction.

That's exactly what you said my arguments were ("Contradicting"). You really have no idea how contradicting YOUR (meaning you and right wing religious people in general) arguments are do you? (when it comes to ur bible info on morality and creationism)

QUOTE

And I beleive RCD to be flawed because it is based upon an assumption that the earth is hundreds of million years old.

It's actually based on the calculation (or mesurment, can't remember, lol) of decaying atoms and the number of them if I remember correctly. (Or at least something of tha like)... not on how old the earth is. Tha estimation of the earth's age is based on quite a few other things.
And it isn't flawed like you think it is. That whole fish thing (which I have never heard of up until now) was most likely a HUMAN error... not a scientifical error.
As for tha accuracy of that system of dating... it's not completely inaccurate after 40,000 years (I believe it's actually 50,000, but either way...). After that time period, it's usually a ballpark figure. That doesn't mean that a 100 million yr old fosile might come up as 500,000 yrs. It more or less means something that may be 12,349,100 yrs old might show up as 16million, or maybe 10million. I'd rather those kind of figures rather than a random "yeah... humans were made like 5000 years ago." (Or whatever the assumption is by Christians, or tha like.) Which brings me to a question... When IS tha time period that Adam and Eve were supposedly created? (Always kinda wondered, but haven't really gotten around to asking anyone yet, haha)

QUOTE

...of the big bang happening were i believe the chances of it happening again in a particular place...

Tha chances of it happening again I believe are zero (or close to)(in our universe... if there is another

... who knows, lol). According to the cosmological constant (which was revised a few times by a few people, including Einstien, but was later fixed by, I think, a couple guys later after Einstien died) all the matter in the universe is exanding (and at an accelerating rate) which would make it highly improbable that tha matter will contract and start another "bang."

QUOTE

hmmm, yep. it sounds like those atheist schools are REALLY doing a good job doesn't it...

Athiest schools... riiiiight... my HS is located in prolly one of THE most right wing areas I know of. (Meaning extremely religious, conservative... or close minded in other words

) That school even has several bible classes (including an AP bible class... or was it IB... same thing...) Just because a school teaches both sides of an issue, doesn't make it an athiest school... and if it does, then athiest schools are tha best ones because they can actually teach and educate.

QUOTE

whose story is recounted in almost every textbook on evolution

I never learned about any moth

QUOTE

they never have landed consistently on tree trunks, but hide under branches!

SO THAT PROVES EVOLUTION IS FALSE!!!!

(that was sarcastic btw.... juss so there's no mix ups, lol)

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 02:57:00 AM

for your information:

i have grown up and still stay in a christian home, i started being taken to church from whenever i was old enough to stay quiet during the service, a bretheren christian church, so pretty strict. I went to sunday school from the age of like 5 to 16. i sang hymns, read from the bible, and was a complete believer. i got saved when i was 12 after having many sleepless nights worrying about my family eventually being taken from me and me being left alone for judgement. i used to wake up in cold sweats after having nightmares about God asking me why i didnt get saved. when i did get saved i felt this unbelieveable weight being lifted from my shoulders- it truly was bliss.

my education was mainly secular, but as is required i had to do some religious education in secondary school. from that point on i started becomming very interested in science, and chose a chemistry route through school. all the time i went to the gospel on sunday evenings and was sometimes very emotionally affected by the service- especially peoples testimony and baptisms which were usually done together.

through university i learned lots about biology, and from discussions with my girlfriend (a microbiologist) i learned loads about evolution. whenever i went home at the weekend i started picking up on things the preacher said about the bible being fact that contradicts all scientific belief- i think one preacher once said: "the theories of evolution spread like a disease these days- when evolution is merely a tool of the devil" (i cant remember the exact phrasing of this, but you get the picture) from what i'd studied about evolution, i had heard nothing to suggest that it was falsified, so i read into it further. over time whenever i've gone to church with my family i've heard lies being preached as gospel truths, false accusations of the scientific community which i feel a part of.

through the church i've been exposed to some of the most evil people i've ever met- i cant and wont go into details about that, but there are some very cold elitist individuals who pervert the scriptures to suit their own goals. it also hurts me to think that these people teach their children their beliefs, and force them to adhere to their strict rule. it mainly hurts me that they dont understand that this type of childhood is completely counterproductive- 98% of the children in the church only go there to please their parents, and afterwords they go round to the other kids houses and get high and drunk among other non-christian things.

the hypocrite population of the church is staggering- it just makes me ask "wtf is the point?"

since starting my education properly, i've came to the conclusion that religion is the most dangerous thing on the face of the planet. forget nuclear weapons or terrorists or hemoragic viral bioweapons.

think about it for a moment, if just for a second you remove the possibility of a god, but treat the bible as an accurate record of percieved fact at the time of writing, how many billions of people from the start of the bible until now, have been put to death in the name of god?

religion is BY FAR the biggest killer the world has ever seen

--------------------------------

so S1lenT_X my little bit with the intention of telling you i know a lot about christianity has turned into a big bit- i hope you can take something from it

in the words of someone the christian chirch believes to be the antichrist:
think for yourself, question authority

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 24, 2004, 02:57:00 AM

QUOTE

you need to know about the Bible.

I was told that by someone once, and think that's completely true that you need to know the other side's point of view before arguing. But I've never been a big fan of fiction novels. They've never interested me. I've only read 2 books, completely through, on my own free will. (I've read books for school, but only 2 for my own liking) Tha first one happened to be The Echo Of the Big Bang and the other was Einstien's Cosmo's... both of which are more or less biographies rather than text books on tha knowlege of such subject matter. But none tha less give much insight on it. I highly recomend those books (or at tha very least, Einstien's Cosmos... Echo kinda dragged on a lil too much for me.
So instead of reading books, I ask people, listen to people, and/or watch programs on TV about what I wanna know about. Discovery Channel is always good... they even had a thing on Jesus. I didn't get to see tha whole thing tho

.
So tha bible isn't the ONLY source for these things. It's just a printing of tha stories... it's not like some SUPER special thing that you NEED ta have other wise something bad happens to you.
(And no, I'm not illiterate... I can read (and write when I want to) quite well. I just don't have tha pacience to read large books. I'll read artcles or something like that, but usually not whole books. And it's not ADD either, lol. I can spend hours and hours doing one thing (such as sit on tha computer

, draw a picture, research (when I want to), and many other things. It's all a matter of interest.)

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 03:05:00 AM

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 24, 2004, 03:13:00 AM

EDIT:...Actually I think I'm thinking of a different book 'cause I can't seem to find tha one I thought was by him... hmmmm... Oh well, haha.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 03:30:00 AM

http://www.amazon.co...3552759-6327652
this is da one- possibly the best book ever written

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: melon on August 24, 2004, 03:45:00 AM

That is a momentous book!!!!

Just for the record too was brought up in a strict religous family.
My mother and half my family are Irish, thus Catholic and I had to go to church and sunday school. Even in school we had daily prayers and once a wek would walk to the local church for a service.

Its just I have a scientific mind and question everything. The bible doesnt add up and I couldnt stand all the contradictions, they were not logical.

And about the gene pool, that is a shit arsed argument. Where Adam and Eve created with this gene pool as part of them or did it develop over time?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 24, 2004, 03:50:00 AM

. I've been lucky. Nothing bad has happened to me, and i haven't had to experience the horribles things that can and do happen in churches. Yes... sometimes you have to wonder about "the point"

.... but that might be a conversation for some other time.

And i want to second you on this,
"i've heard lies being preached as gospel truths, false accusations of the scientific community which i feel a part of"

and also this,

"the hypocrite population of the church is staggering"

People are sinful and do evil things. This is not and never was God's will. But it can still be hard to understand why God lets these things happen....

I think that the one MAJOR thing i have against many Christians is their disrespect for science. Science has served man well. Through it we have made medical discoveries and major acheivements. We are far more technologically advanced since the scientific community really hit it off in the early 18th century. I could go on, but you get the picture. However, Christians have mixed feelings about science. These range from extremes such as "IT IS THE WORK OF THE DEVIL", to less extremes such as "Science isn't important, only love' *gaggs*. I can see (in a superficial sort of way, i haven't experienced what you obviously have) why you would be angry with Christianity.
It is also true that Christians go about what they do in the wrong way. For example, the arguments against Evolution. Christians often start these off with ideas such as "Evolution is a satan spawned beleif which is clearly wrong.) The fact is, it is a theory. Since man first started to wonder why everything is the way it is, science has been based on theories. Evolution is just another one of these. The laws we now have on physics (thank you Newton) were originally based on theories. These theories may or may not have seemed redicuolous to the people at the time, but one thing is for sure, the church argued strongly against them.

Therefore what i am saying, is that it is unfair for Christians to argue against Evolution on the basis of facts. Because the "fact" is, humans are prone to error. On top of that, Evolution is a theory (yes, it isn't a law), and theories have been so important to science.

I don't remember the exact verse, but can't be bothered finding it. In the bible in Genesis i beleive, it says that man is to take dominion of the earth. Science is one of the ways we can do that. Attacking Evolution as a means of "proving" God doesn't help anyone!! Even if Evolution could be proved to be wrong, how will it help a Christian to "convert people to Christ"???

I don't know why i said all of that. It doesn't really help my argument. But i think you have shown me something rebellious1. Maybe not exactly what you wanted to show me, but you showed me never the less. Attacking science from a Christian point of view isn't going to do anything except for causing hard feelings.... No hard feelings therebellious1.

Owtlaw333, i was not saying that the whole Bible needed to be known, in fact i said "At LEAST the basics of Christianity." I'm a steadfast Christian and i haven't read the WHOLE bible *shivers at the thought.*
But the reason i beleive that the bible is so important is that it is God's direct word. He was the one who inspired the writers. It is a compilation of facts, poetry, proverbs, and meaningful insite into God. The writers didn't just make these things up, they were inspired by God, that is, he guided them in the writing of it.
It's so very important because, unlike the words of men (such as on the Discovery Channel, or in Sermons), the bible is "divine" it comes from God. There may well be mistakes in it, but these are more or less misunderstandings, or poor translations.
There is arguments, and people do make mistakes about what the bible means. These however, are not due to the bible, these are due to man's corrupt minds.

Edit> Sorry about the bad grammar and spelling. I wrote this in a hurry. Gotta do my History homework. Then on to Biology. I love learning about science and the world.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 03:51:00 AM

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 24, 2004, 03:55:00 AM

Come now? The gene-pool isn't a "Christian" idea. Geneticists know of it. All animals have their species' "gene-pool" from which all traits can be selected. I tried to tackle that one from a scientific point of view.

Edit> The gene-pool doesn't change (or at least, there is no evidence of this), it doesn't "develope" over time. So yes, in essence, the gene-pool from which your characteristics are taken are exactly the same as the ones an African's might be taken from. And his/her are taken from the same gene-pool with which Adam and Eve were given.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 04:04:00 AM

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 24, 2004, 04:08:00 AM

Teach me. In my mind, a theory is an hypothesis which has stood up to observation and experimentation. Nothing can be proved to be exact. Therefore, they are a theory. Where am i wrong?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 04:12:00 AM

QUOTE (S1lenT_X @ Aug 24 2004, 11:58 AM)

ok dude, firstly i'll deal with your gene pool question
(secretly i was trying to get you to buy Prof H's book

)
from talk origins:

QUOTE

Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population over time. One example is insects developing a resistance to pesticides over the period of a few years. Even most Creationists recognize that evolution at this level is a fact. What they don't appreciate is that this rate of evolution is all that is required to produce the diversity of all living things from a common ancestor.

gimme a bit of time to see if someone has reproduced hawkin's bit on theories on the net- i dont want to have to type it out......

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 24, 2004, 04:15:00 AM

oh yeah, and by the way guys, I am firm in my beleif. It would take a hell of a lot to change my mind. But that doesn't mean i am not interested. Science has always caught my attention. And Evolutionists do make good points.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 04:34:00 AM

i posted a link to hawkings book a little earlier on- it really is well worth reading

i searched a bit for hawkings bit about laws, but all i could find was this. its not by hawking, and its not really what i was looking for.

its pretty amazing that you are actually listening to arguments, i would have never thought it possible!

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 24, 2004, 04:39:00 AM

Too many Christians just assume that they are correct and that everyone will listen to and beleive them. When they don't they just assume that the person is a d*** head. They forget that just as the person they are talking to could be wrong, so could they, but also refer to my previous post.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: ButtersB on August 24, 2004, 04:43:00 AM

I'm not here to change anyone's views on religion, and in fact i would hate to think i played a part in someone walking away from their beliefs (apart from some crazy religious extremists of course). As I have have said multiple times, i'd love to be religious and believe in the afterlife and stuff.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: wafflez on August 24, 2004, 04:49:00 AM

QUOTE

I'm just learning about this, but the gene pool seems to change through mutant allele's, which are a modification not considered 'normal' to the organism in question.

Oh, and whoever said that theres no visible evidence of evolution working, how about insects that become resistant to pesticides? Scientists have actually observed this happening over a number of years. This has happened a lot, with lots of different types of insects, and different types of chemicals, so you're not telling me that these insects happen to have the resistance as part of their possible standard gene pool?

I am a firm believer in christ and i still believe that microevolution is happening everyday just like it did with you example of insects. Christians can believe that God created the heaven and the earth and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins while still believing in science. We don't just throw it all out the window.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 24, 2004, 04:51:00 AM

Why exactly don't you. God intends for science and Christianity to go hand in hand? Many people however, beleive that God isn't "realistic" enough for science. But then, what exactly is "realistic" science.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 04:54:00 AM

QUOTE

The bucket approach to forming a hypothesis
In the bucket approach, a scientist starts with an interest in a portion of the world, like kids at at beach scoops up stuff into their bucket. In this approach, the scientist starts by observing some aspect of the natural world and literally works her way up, observing, forming and testing hypotheses, establishing the facts, laws and inferences, finally constructing a theory which explains how that bucketful of the world works.

i think i may have misunderstood you initially- sorry

wafflez i recommend you read hawkings book, it'll present you with difficult questions...

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: wafflez on August 24, 2004, 04:56:00 AM

QUOTE

So you just have a problem with macroevolution?

yes, btw how do you get it to have the name of the person who said the quote and the date and time?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 24, 2004, 05:00:00 AM

therebellious1, i've been thinking. It's not the only reason, but the MAIN reason that i wan't to read this stuff is because of what you said earlier. Everything i have read so far has been "biased." It has all been very easy for me to consume as it ties in with what i beleive. However, i am realizing more and more that there is a whole world of materials out there which i have never touched. Like you said to Waffelz. It will challenge me. I wan't to be challenged. I also want to learn what others have to say. That's the reason i began this poll in the first place (not that you could really call it a pol anymore, lol)

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: melon on August 24, 2004, 05:05:00 AM

).

You said all humans must come from the gene pool of Adam and Eve, this is not possible. By this logic it wouldnt matter what your genes are, you are saying that two Etheopians could give birth to a blonde child because it picked genes out of the gene pool contained within its parents. It doesnt work that way.

The genes you select is soley dependent on the genes of your parents. You are made from parts of your mothers and parts of your fathers genes. It is why twins can run in families, or to why families can all have ginger hair. Adam and Eve with the genes they had in them could not create the different traits you see in humans today.

Unless you are saying that there is the slightest possability that things can go a bit wrong and the odd gene can change or mutate when a baby is concieved, then a new gene has been created which is different to the corresponding gene in each of its parents. Over millions of years or however many years ago Adam and Eve lived, the gene mutating through each generation could create a gene pool. But this is evolution!

Edit: to quote without the name click the quote button just above the text box and paste, then click quote again.

to quote with name just click the quote button at the top of there post.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: wafflez on August 24, 2004, 05:10:00 AM

QUOTE

Unless you are saying that there is the slightest possability that things can go a bit wrong and the odd gene can change or mutate when a baby is concieved, then a new gene has been created which is different to the corresponding gene in each of its parents. Over millions of years or however many years ago Adam and Eve lived, the gene mutating through each generation could create a gene pool. But this is evolution!

That is microevolution, i'm guessing that many christians don't have a problem with microevolution because it really does make sense.

I have a question about evolution. So with evolution you believe we came from a cell that just kept on going like the energizer bunny until eventually it gets an organism. If it was like that, in evolution wouldn't that be incest somehow too? Sorry i'm still learning. I'm open to all that you have to say.

Wafflez

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 24, 2004, 05:19:00 AM

Let me quote from my "biased" biology manual,

Chapter 6b, Modern Genetics; The Gene Pool and Population Genetics (page 1): "Geneticists often refer to the sum of all the genes that all the members of a species of an organism can conceivably possess as the gene pool for that organism. Every nomral individual has a complete set of genes from the gene pool. That complete set does not have every possible allele of every gene. For example, all the possible genes that Mendel's peas could have had constituted the gene pool for peas, but every pea plant does not have ALL the possible alleles of every gene. A short pea plant (homozygous recessive) does not have the allele for being tall.
The human gene pool has genes for hemophillia in it, but most people do not have this gene. If a person's parents do not have the gene for hemophillia, there is no chance of his having it (unless a mutation occurs). An individual has access to the gene pool only through his parents, who are two seperate accesses to the gene pool. In other words, one parent brings his children one set of genes, and the other parent brings another set. Some genes in a cross are homozygous, each parent giving the same allele as the other . For some genes, however, the parents give different alleles and thereby produce offspring which are not exactly like themseleves. These natural differences between individuals from the same gene pool are called VARIATIONS" Not evolution.

Edit: In evolution new species are created.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: melon on August 24, 2004, 05:23:00 AM

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: S1lenT_X on August 24, 2004, 05:25:00 AM

I don't care whether Adam and Eve were black or white. In fact it wouldn't bother me if they were Yellow! (except for the problems it would pose to genetic possibilities) I don't beleive in a dominant race.

anyway, i gotta go and think about all of this. My head is hurting and the homework looms. cy u guys tommorrow or something, bye

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 05:26:00 AM

a common misconception is that common descent starts with two and only two initial organisms

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: wafflez on August 24, 2004, 05:33:00 AM

I'm sorry guys it's almost 7 in the morning and i need my sleep, i'll try to catch up tomorrow night, i just started to read this tonight and it really interested me i'll definately be thinking about all of this and i'll get back to you with what i think. Have a good day.
Wafflez

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 05:36:00 AM

ButtersB
it doesnt really make for a fair argument doesnt it?

imagine the chaos if the AllBlacks played ManchesterUnited, each team using their respective rules.

post slightly edited to keep this more on topic

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 05:44:00 AM

post edited to preserve the serious discussion- sorry, twas immature

this may be arrogant, i'm pretty sure that the logic and evidence FOR all evolution will prevail, else the integrity of scientific method will be compromised. the only problem is with people chosing to dis-believe factual evidence and claim conspiracy

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: melon on August 24, 2004, 05:52:00 AM

I dont know how we can argue with people who are discounting facts. Its like religous people didnt belive it when they found out about the universe and the earth rotating around the sun. Maybe in time they will belive, the church now except the earth is not the centre of the universe so you never know.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Arvarden on August 24, 2004, 07:08:00 AM

It's a forum ffs...

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 07:21:00 AM

QUOTE (melon @ Aug 24 2004, 01:55 PM)

a dude called Aristarchus proposed most of the Copernican theory about 1700 years before Copernicus was on the go, but Aristarchus was shot down in flames by Aristotle initially.

Copernicus was actually first a lawyer, then became a cannon in the church before diverting to medicine then astronomy before he rediscovered Aristarchus' theories

so we've got a helluva long wait, then we need someone inside the church to rediscover evolution before the church will accept it

also i think his freaky nose had something to do with it

this was what he had to say about his doubters:

QUOTE

Perhaps there will be babblers who, although completely ignorant of mathematics, nevertheless take it upon themselves to pass judgement on mathematical questions and, badly distorting some passages of Scripture to their purpose, will dare find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent as despising their criticism as unfounded.

seems familiar

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: shiyoushi on August 24, 2004, 10:56:00 AM

my 2c - I'll beleive there is a God (or Goddess, whatever floats your boat) when you can provide me with irrifutable proof.

In the mean remember the bible was written a fair while ago, and before that it was word of mouth... stories get warped and changed subtly as they pass from person to person (just play Chinese Whispers!), and whoever wrote the Bible onto paper first would have had his on personal prejudices and opinions which probably reflected in his interpretation.

Also, I don't believe that having the opinion that your God and ways are "better" or the only "true way of god" is a good reason to go genocidal on races and peoples with different religions and ways from the society you come from. This has been my only beef with organised religion. Well that and the whole "evolution? god just plonked us here and left fossils to confuse us!" BS

okay okay, I'll shut up now

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: shiyoushi on August 24, 2004, 11:42:00 AM

QUOTE (Owtlaw333 @ Aug 22 2004, 09:07 PM)

[Sarcasm]Heil Hitler![/Sarcasm]... go to Germany and hang out with ur pals... you don't deserve to live in tha US.

Hey! That Germany crack is not cool, my Ma and Da are German! Doesn't make me a Nazi, and I resent you implying such.

QUOTE

And that makes him lesser of a person?... He's funny as hell. You SHOULD listen to him.

Eddy Izzard: agree with you completely Owtlaw333 Eddy Izzard has said some very interesting and serious comments on society, even if they were in the form of jokes (If that doesn't make sense, sorry not expressing myself well I guess). Ellen DeGeneres has also said many things that get you thinking on topics like religion and society. One cross dresses, and the other is a lesbian. So freaking what? Doesn't make them any less of a person than anybody else, just 'cause the bible says its wrong doesnt mean it is (I refer to my above post w/ the bit about personal influences).

QUOTE

Actually, a good percentage of what you see isn't really what ur seeing. Alot of ur periphiral(sp?) is just ur mind creating what it thinks is there (maybe from seeing what was there previously, or just out of what should be there)

In terms of evolution and nature there was nothing wrong with it (Except for tha fact it wasn't nature and it was all based on RELIGION!... Tha Christian faith too, if I remember correctly)... But ever since evolution, a lil thing called emotion developed, and along with emotion, comes morals. But no one seemed to understand that... so where were they to get the information as to where this came from, when they didn't have science?... That's right... tha bible.

New Scientist often has interesting articles on subjects like this... I remember once they were theorising that feathers on reptiles like the Velociraptor (spelling?) started out as scales that were shaped slightly differently making it easier for the Raptors to adjust by using a form of air braking when pouncing on prey that moved at the last minute. (erm... I had a point when I started this paragraph but seem to have lost it somewher)

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: shiyoushi on August 24, 2004, 11:56:00 AM

QUOTE (therebelious1 @ Aug 23 2004, 09:06 PM)

wasnt the original sin committed by eve

afaik there were only two humans about at that time

um... I've only read the bible once then decided it was hokey so I may be wrong... but weren't there three people according to the bible at that time? Wasn't Lillith Adam's first wife or something?

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 24, 2004, 12:10:00 PM

QUOTE

WHy over enough time could these genes mutate to give us what we have now. im talking billions of years. If in 4000 (whatever it is), we have changed from Adam and Eve to give all the different humans all adapted to there surroundings, what could happen in billions???

It's actually more like millions, haha. The sun itself is estimated to be about 4.5 billion years old.

... just a tid bit of info.

QUOTE

Hey! That Germany crack is not cool, my Ma and Da are German! Doesn't make me a Nazi, and I resent you implying such.

I'm sorry that offended you... wasn't my intention. I too am part German. (A couple generations back, but german none tha less) I also could have said Orange County, CA too just to be fair. (It's considered one of tha most neonazi populated areas in California, if not US) That's where I live. So I am really sorry for the offense. EDIT: Tha use of Germany instead of OC worked better with my statement tho because my original comment before that statement was "You don't deserve to live in the US"... So the OC is the LAST place I want him to come to, lol... we have enough of him around.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 24, 2004, 12:35:00 PM

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Owtlaw333 on August 24, 2004, 12:41:00 PM

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Baner on August 24, 2004, 02:48:00 PM

Didn't like where this topic is goign either... More on a modern day level. And on a smaller scale, rather than the huge scale of "Hey, me and that plant are related." I'll be back tomarrow but it'll be to late to respond to anything recent... just be puting my 2 cents in that have nothing to do with whats going on lol.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Maximumbeing on August 28, 2004, 10:38:00 AM

Jesus is kinda like lung cancer...

Yeah, I got nothing.

Support Social Security, kill yourself at 35.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: sgcgirl52 on August 29, 2004, 02:08:00 AM

hehehehehehehehehehehe

Shalom out,

~*~sgcgirl52~*~

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Maximumbeing on August 29, 2004, 09:21:00 AM

I have aboslutely no idea who you are. Please refrain from using my name.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: sgcgirl52 on August 29, 2004, 03:56:00 PM

Oh sha "Maximumbeing"

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Scott12 on August 29, 2004, 04:04:00 PM

I didn't read this thread but I'm still putting in my two cents:

In my personal opinion, Jesus Christ is just a fictional character from an old popular book that happens to have a strong cult following, mostly by confused, stubborn people desperate to find a reason.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: therebelious1 on August 30, 2004, 07:32:00 AM

sgcgirl52, just take deep breaths, calm down, and think about stuff before you cram it all into a post

from the translation i made into what you said, you just restated a load of stuff which wasnt really being disputed, but all that you said was pretty valid..

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: mycotopian on September 15, 2004, 04:04:00 PM

all I know is

"nobody F**ks with the Jesus"

user posted image

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Maximumbeing on September 15, 2004, 04:05:00 PM

Quite the contrary, I'd say the Romans fucked him up good and well.

Title: Who Is Jesus To You?
Post by: Owtlaw333 on September 15, 2004, 06:47:00 PM

QUOTE (Maximumbeing @ Sep 15 2004, 04:08 PM)

Quite the contrary, I'd say the Romans fucked him up good and well.

xboxscene.org forums

Off Topic Forums => General Chat => Politics, News and Religion => Topic started by: S1lenT_X on August 18, 2004, 05:39:00 PM