Well personally speaking, It wouldn't bother me if I was killed before I was aware of my own existence!
I guess there's nothing to argue about. Did I sum it up that well?
You omitted the major premise:
Killing a human is wrong.
I don't agree with that universally. A human that is less than 3 months, not wrong to kill. A repeat offender, not wrong to kill. Somone attaking you or threatening you, not wrong to kill.
Ummmmm... you might want to talk to the courts about that one. The last time I checked, murdering someone was illegal. Sure someone can be sentenced to death, but that's through a jury of their peers.
Is it fair then to say that each abortion should require a jury? And where would you find equal representation of the baby?
Also, you mention that you can murder in self defence. Though it's an extreme case, it's very true. How does a baby equate to a knife weilding intruder though? Would you say then, that if the baby was no threat to the mother's life, an abortion could not be made, and abortions should only be performed in 'self defence'?
Well, we're making progress. You acknoledged that babies are human!
...say hi to Hitler for me, we have the same birthday
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Right, but how does this apply to abortion?
Umm... because its her body...?
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Just for kicks, what if this woman actually tried to better herself in light of her situation?
Ok, then, just for kicks, let's see what might happen. The woman might get a job flipping burgers, might go back to college, spend hours on the other job she got, and leave here child alone all the time because his/her mom is bettering themselves, how did that fix the problem? The woman still isnt there. Just because you say you want to better yourself doesnt mean your automatically better off, you just accepted responsibility for fucking up your life and the kids possibly.
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Men are being conditioned to think that they have no choice when it comes to the murder of their children.
Im pretty sure that if you can prove your the father of the child, you do have a say in the abortion, although in the end it is the womans choice, know why? Cause she's the one who has to go around with a fetus inside her for 9 months, the father sits there and, at best, says "I know what your going through".
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Why am I treated as if I am some sort of inanimate semen dispenser who could never have an emotional attatchment to his unborn child?
Because in this manner, you are, welcome to life buddy. Its hell. And why exactly would you have a say in it? You say your pro life and that if the woman doesnt want the child she should have taken preventive measures (something I agree with completely), why didnt you wear a condom? Why didnt YOU take pre-emtive measures?
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If you support abortion, I have to assume you have a weak mind and at some point you succumbed to good marketing.
A 'weak mind'? How do I have a weak mind, I made the choice of what I support all on my own. Which I dont support abortion by the way, I support letting a woman do what she wants with her body, I think the physical act of abortion is horrible, but its the womans body.
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Take the way they bundled the whole issue in a neat and tiny package..."Choice"
Yeah, it comes down to one thing, choice. Its not your body, its not your woman, if you care about "your blood" and lifeline being passed on in the fetus in the womans body (ie your child) then you should have found out by talking that the woman didnt want to have a child and you should have worn a condom, or just not get laid at all. THATS WHY GOD GAVE US THE INTERNET! Its not always the womans responsibility to prevent herself from getting pregnent. You talk about being an "inanimate semen dispenser" yet you dont seem to talk about doin much more than getting laid. Your points all point the blame on women that they are evil for getting an abortion because they got knocked up.
Imagine this, your a young, 17 year old girl, you got pregnent from your 18 year old boyfreind, and he ran out on you. What do you do? A 17 year old cant raise a child, much less support him/her. And imagine being that child, you would grow up cold and bitter I can only imagine, your mother is always working, never has money, probably blames you because your father left and your the only one their.
Im not an extremest either, and I dont think I have a "weak mind".
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Imagine this, your a young, 17 year old girl, you got pregnent from your 18 year old boyfreind, and he ran out on you. What do you do? A 17 year old cant raise a child, much less support him/her. And imagine being that child, you would grow up cold and bitter I can only imagine, your mother is always working, never has money, probably blames you because your father left and your the only one their.
Imagine being that very same child only this in this scenario, the mother decided to stop feeling sorry for herself, realized that she's a fuckup, and decided to better herself. She realized that raising a child wont be easy and actually put forth the effort. I imagine that child would turn out a lot better than he/she did in your story. In your story, you expect nothing of the mother, much like our society.
I find it hard to believe that you really think that a 17 year old mother cannot support a child....look to our history and see just how full of shit you are. It's possible...very hard, but possible.
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Cause she's the one who has to go around with a fetus inside her for 9 months, the father sits there and, at best, says "I know what your going through".
9 months? Boo hoo
What is nine months compared to a lifetime of raising, teaching, supporting that child? Give me a fucking break. Stretch marks? Overactive bladder? Morning sickness? Getting *GASP*....fat?! Cry me a fucking river. That's nothing compared to the effort, devotion, hardship it takes to raise a child.
I believe abortion is sick and wrong. This is because I see abortion as being the same as murder. The way anyone should ever think of it is if they are rapped or if their life is in danger due to complications with the pregnancy.
QUOTE(Arvarden @ May 23 2005, 07:54 AM)
So what you are saying is we should implement a conception certificate and then when the child is born produce a birth certificate?
, next week im taking my gf to get an abortion. end of story!! literally.
QUOTE(mr_kill_666 @ May 26 2005, 11:53 PM)
next week im taking my gf to get an abortion. end of story!! literally.
I believe in choice. Many good points have been made as to the fact it is the womans body, it is her choice. When it comes down to it, I believe the fetus is a leech or parasite until a certain point, maybe the third trimester is a little late, but the fetus would not live without the mother, and it does not think, or show any similarity to a rational thinking human being, regardless of age.
If you dont like my opinion, I really couldnt care less. If you want to argue with me though, let me say a few things first. You have absoloutly no say on the matter, whatsoever. Forcing your beliefs on other people is wrong (for some reason it seems right in US...Bush pushing religion). Regardless if you think pro choice is disgusting, or wrong, or whatever.... it is not your choice to decide that. Nor, for that matter, is it the governments.
What I find wrong and disgusting though, is you anti-abortion people. For some reason, you think its your business what some woman somewhere in the world does with her unborn fetus. Its not. It may become your business if someone in your life is making that decision, but it is still not your choice.
QUOTE(Atrocity @ May 20 2005, 03:33 PM)
I find it hard to believe that you really think that a 17 year old mother cannot support a child....look to our history and see just how full of shit you are. It's possible...very hard, but possible.
9 months? Boo hoo
Are you stupid? I have 3 female friends who got pregnant when they were teenagers. And you want to know how they turned out?
Mother #1 got pregnant when she was 16. She was going out with a 30 year old, neither of them had jobs. She wanted to get an abortion, but he boyfriend beat her for even thinking of it. Today, she lives off welfair, doesnt have the time to get a job and pay a baby sitter, and raise her child. Her boyfriend was restrained for beating her numerous times. Is that what you think a good life is?
Mother #2 got pregnant when she was 15, and shes about 24 now. She too lives off welfair, smokes weed like a god damn chimney, lives with a druggie boyfriend who deals, and they move from house to house regularily.
Mother #3. I used to hang out with her a long while ago. She used to always be in school, always had a job and nice things. Two years ago she was raped. About 6 months after the rape she dropped out of school, quit her job, and now shes living with a scum bag drug dealer. How did that happen? I dont know, but it did.
I dont have any positive outcomes that would match your moronic story. How the fuck is a 17 year old supposed to graduate from school, maintain a decent paying job, and support her child (and most likely an apartment or home)? You want to answer that? Oh wait, you probably cant. And please dont bother creating some bullshit story to back yourself up. Just save yourselve the trouble and dont post, for lack of knowledge.
QUOTE(Code-Red @ Jun 6 2005, 05:53 PM)
When it comes down to it, I believe the fetus is a leech or parasite until a certain point, maybe the third trimester is a little late, but the fetus would not live without the mother, and it does not think, or show any similarity to a rational thinking human being, regardless of age.
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Erica Basoria acknowledged asking Flores to help end her pregnancy. But the 17-year-old can't be prosecuted because of her legal right to abortion.
QUOTE(Ween311 @ Jun 7 2005, 04:48 AM)
Article
There's principly no difference between performing an abortion and forcing a miscarriage. I suppose the only difference is that a doctor is licensed and the process of an abortion is approved and tested... probably a great deal safer than jumping on someone's stomach. The courts definitely can't allow this behavior or stupid teenagers would kill themselves while trying the same thing.
The guy shouldn't be charged for murder... that's pure hypocrisy. Rather he should just be charged for assaulting his girlfriend.
I agree 100% with thewickedjester and i think that there should and shouldnt be abortion..rape i believe that it is the girls choice if it wasnt part her decision to have it then she should have the decision...
Kain
QUOTE(Kain462 @ Jun 19 2005, 12:05 AM)
I agree 100% with thewickedjester and i think that there should and shouldnt be abortion..rape i believe that it is the girls choice if it wasnt part her decision to have it then she should have the decision...
QUOTE(lebriznon @ Apr 14 2005, 03:11 AM)
i dont support abortions.
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. . . A 17 year old cant raise a child, much less support him/her. And imagine being that child, you would grow up cold and bitter I can only imagine, your mother is always working, never has money, probably blames you because your father left and your the only one their.
Lance Armstrong was born to an unmarried 17 year old mother and he has just lived a horrible horrible life. My bet is that he wakes up every morning saying "Why oh why did my mother not abort me".
On the other hand because of her selfish selfish decision to keep her child we americans get to vicariously stick it too the frenchies every year.
when we can kill an innocent unborn but not a convicted criminal... Ok, thats all i have to say.
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when we can kill an innocent unborn but not a convicted criminal... Ok, thats all i have to say.
well said
QUOTE(damam @ Jun 26 2005, 11:02 PM)
Lance Armstrong was born to an unmarried 17 year old mother and he has just lived a horrible horrible life. My bet is that he wakes up every morning saying "Why oh why did my mother not abort me".
QUOTE(thewickedjester @ Jul 22 2005, 12:01 AM)
Look, I'm not saying a 17 year old CANT raise a child. My point is that people should have a CHOICE. The daughter of my moms freind is 19, has a child, and barely ever see's her. She's to busy out party-ing to bother with the child. She's a 14 year old trapped in a 19 year old's body, and she isnt fit to be a mother. THESE are the types of people who should have the chioce (again, I emphasize CHOICE) to have had an abortion.
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This sounds a lot more like a cry for an adoption than an abortion.
Not neccissarily, in the end the woman/girl shouldn't have had sex or taken measures to prevent it in the first place. But if it happens, then we have to consider how many kids are waiting for adoption.
Don't get me wrong, I would much rather see a child born and then adopted rather than aborted, but this isnt a disscussion which is better, its a disscussion on the morality of abortion as an act.
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So, because she's a shitty mother, then that kid should have died to make her life easier?
Look, in my example, I've met this girl, she is a shitty mother. Its not that she's balancing her social life and her child, she dumps the kid with her mother (the childs grandmother) and doesnt show up for days, when she does show up shes either drunk or stoned off her ass. The grandmother (my mothers freind) is thankfully a good mother and takes very good care of her, but the troubled partying child is about to move out to Colorado (or some state out West) with the father who abuses her, does drugs, drinks HEAVILY, and will probably do some of the same to the child. I dont think thats a good way for a child to grow up in. But the 19 year old wont give her up for adoption. So this child is going to grow up having a pretty shitty childhood.
So whats the alternative there? Granted, she will eventually have the child taken away from her (someone has to call child services, hell I'm comtemplating doing it right now) and she gets addopted, most likely to a loving family. But how long will that take? What mental damage will this kid grow up thinking?
I dont like abortion, I think its horrible, but I do think that its the mothers chioce in the end. Whatever reason, selfish, rape, whatever, its the mothers choice.
I do like one idea, make abortion a flat out crime.
Now hear me out on this, if the reason for the abortion is justified, then by all means you have nothing to worry about. Even if the judge is a conservative, and rules against you for personal reasons, you could always appeal.
I mention this because i would wager the vast majority of abortions are completely elective. I know about rape, and other special situations, but honestly how often are they an issue. This is approaching the issue in the wrong direction, you dont use the exceptions to justify the rule. You justify the rule, and then make exceptions.
I, for one, am completely against abortion.
I do however respect the opinion of the courts, unlike a bunch of these American hating bastards.
I dont think that it will now be completely outlawed, but i dont see why the pro-choice people fear concessions.
No one can really justify partial birth abortion, except to say that if you banned it you were on your way to stopping all abortions. Thats not a good enough reason to kill.
As far as the bad mother scenario goes, a flaw. She could have wanted the child and still been a bad mother. I dont really think her actions indicate anything but someone who is irresponsible. Thats a bad thing, her being a mother and all, but its not justification for abortion by a long shot
i dont know where you get that?
Basically pro-choice people have said with their support of partial birth abortion that abortion is just one act, there are not any variants or degrees. This is obviously not true, since even if you treat it as a medical procedure, there are still degrees of necessity.
Almost all partial birth abortions occur because of what is perceived as defects with the baby.
They are not childbirth preventitive(since you have to give birth anyway)
they arent due to rape(almost all of those occur in the first trimester),
and they arent protective of the mother(once again the child actually could come out alive or dead, its not going to effect her health in any different way)
Now what if we allowed them all to be born, then if the child was defective, we euthenised it. This would be a much better solution, since there exists a chance that children destroyed through partial birth abortion wont be defective. So the pro-life people win because they save a baby. The pro-choice people win because they get to destroy it if its messed up.
Wait i cant say that, its barbaric, it completely immoral, but it actually would be more logical than a partial birth abortion. So why cant a concession be made on that? Just because someone doesnt want to kill a fully developed baby doesnt mean that they will support the banning of abortion. It just means that they arent so blinded by having to choose sides.
Euthanasia is dangerous game especially if you are on about murdering a defective new born child.
im not, im against killing babies
im just saying it makes more sense then some forms of abortion
...Um what makes since is having a pill that sterilizes men. The government apparently has something similar to that but hte fda wont approve it.. Since the early 80s.. Here is is 20 years later and we still cant have it I say bull shit..
Secondly, I don't care what anyone thinks. Make abortions illegal, cause , jsut like drugs, sex, and Nuclear weapons, someone will still sell them. And you knwo what I woudl DAMN SURE buy them. Everyone acts like this is such a horrible crime, and that so many people get hurt and blah blah blah.. what a bunch of shmucks. What really hurts people is having to many mouths to feed or kids tht grow up with no one to care for them, or parents who have kids that cant afford them.
I say, screw govt. supplied condoms. Where's my govt supplied abortions, or sterilization for me, or better than all that, Just lay me down on a table, and give me a visectimy.
Yeah, but that is somewhat of a false analogy, but is still correct because it really is no her body it is a dependent being with its own set of 46 chromosomes, which are only 50% the mother's.
But there is no real difference to me killing the unborn and the born.
Another thing:
Isnt kinda messed that you cant kill a convicted murderer butyou canan innocent child?
OK, enough religion.
Also, the "it's my body" argument can be held for the baby too, who speaks for it?
Do you guys remember when that psycho whore killed that pregnant lady and stole her "fetus", which turns out as soon as she cut it out of the mom's belly became a "baby"? Well what's the difference?
I don't believe I can force my opinion on other's however. This is why we live in a demcoracy. People may vote on laws the way their convictions lead them. This means that if one of my friend's are pro-choice...which a lot are, I won't hate them, just disagree with them.
Yeah murder isn't the christain way, jesus just told them to slaughter thousands that wouldn't convert on the crusades.
QUOTE(EverestX @ Jul 22 2005, 02:12 PM)
Yeah murder isn't the christain way, jesus just told them to slaughter thousands that wouldn't convert on the crusades.
QUOTE(deftonesmx17 @ Jul 22 2005, 08:17 PM)
You might want to research the Crusades...............and the difference between Christianity and Catholicism
QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 22 2005, 02:38 PM)
Yeah lets do that
good response
all i was saying is that catholics are christians too
since catholicism teaches that Jesus was the messiah. They also think Jesus=God, just like you. I didnt say christians were catholics, i said catholics were christians
QUOTE(EverestX @ Jul 22 2005, 02:12 PM)
Yeah murder isn't the christain way, jesus just told them to slaughter thousands that wouldn't convert on the crusades.
QUOTE(puckSR @ Jul 22 2005, 02:56 PM)
good response
... I was kidding about jesus commanding them to do it.. Damn, you guys took that way too serious. I was jsut amking a joke..
Hoever the crusades were none the less a bunch of not jobs that are/were christain. And my pops is catholic and my mom is church of christ, they may not see eye to eye on shit but they still think Jesus was a savior of some sorts. So they are both christian. ..
"Jesus" I know now not to bring you to an abortion debate next time...
-- My point in that statement is that people of all faiths, social classes, an races can be fore or against abortion. Some are, some aren't, and some people blow up abortion clinics usually killing some people becsaue "Abortion is wrong" But they dont feel that killing a bunch of people at one isn't.. WTF?
QUOTE(EverestX @ Jul 22 2005, 03:33 PM)
... I was kidding about jesus commanding them to do it.. Damn, you guys took that way too serious. I was jsut amking a joke..
Man this might piss all you off, but fuck it it's an abortion topic.
kids are the devil they terrify me.. if a girl tells me she is pregnant, she is getting into my car, and going to have an abortion, no questions asked. There is no other option. I refust to have another me running around, god knows we dont need antoher one of them.. plus even if I tell her to get an abortion and she doesnt she can take me to court and make me pay child support for the rest of my life for some little shit I never wanted. Women use kids like a leash on some guys, it aint happening to me. And dont pull that adoption bill on me.. Who wants to harbor something in them for 9 months they wont keep. And what about crack heads. You think we need more Base head babies? Shit I know with all the shit I have donte in my life if I *had* a kid it would probley have 3 arms, be deaf, and never be able to function in life. the only thing that is worse than not ever being able to function in life is not being able to stop it befoer it happens/
There's an esier way to not have to worry about child support, it's called wearing a condom or abstinence. Practice a little common sense and you won't have to worry about those things. And there are a lot of people who have messed up and got pregnant and made the wise decision for their baby to give it up for adoption, because they weren't just thinking about themselves, but for their child. Just because you give it up for adoption doesn't mean you're dooming it, it probably will have a better life.
"because they weren't just thinking about themselves, but for their child"
You're right.. cause they are HAVING it.. I sure wouldn't, Casue I wouldn't ever plan on having it. You make it sound like I frequent abortion clinics with multiple broads all the time. .fact is I have had one my chicks get in that situation *KNOCKS ON WOOD*.. Casue I know better. But none the less i nthe event, you know what waiting room I would be in.
this is the same debate that has been in the section of the forums since we got a political section, I'm not going to post my views on this, just search and you'll find the many topics found on this.
keep your wiener in your pants then.
QUOTE(pepsik @ Jul 22 2005, 10:49 PM)
QUOTE(Tony42077 @ Jul 22 2005, 11:58 PM)
Gee, thanks for chiming in Pepsik. That really helped to furthur the discussion. Almost as much as I am helping it right now. I can't wait to search for your previous replies...
There is a point to chime in. You should let others know your feelings on the subject, but there is no need to debate. Everyone is different and has different views. Why argue over if it is right or not? There is a reason we live in a democracy.....................
The problem is.......................many people don't vote. They bitch about everything yet fail to voice their opinion.
werd
All's been said already, and simply put, I'm against abortion. And picking up on what Jaguar God Imix said, it is really scary how our modern world fits the description of what the book of Revelations in the Bible says.
hmm old topic but i wanted to give my opinion. I believe abortion is a good thing to have around. I mean sure you are taking a life, but its better to end it early then later. Look at it this way. Woman is raped and gets pregnant why should she keep the child? They have been tramatized(sp?) enough so why keep the kid as a bad memory. The next thing is when some skanky slut that sleeps with every guy gets pregnant. Sure she should keep the baby. Then you have to look at it this way..Baby is born...she kills it and we have another dumpster baby or something, why should that have to happen, let her get an abortion. or the other scenario the girl has the baby, isnt ready for it, ignores it and treats it like shit. So kid isnt raised right, not even parents ready for kids are ready lots of times. They let there kids do whatever, they are spoiled little pieces of shit that do whatever because their parent wont tell them no. The other reason I believe in abortion is if you find out your child might be retarded or have some serious isssues with health. There is no point in letting the child have to go on. I mean its difficult for the parents and the kid can't live a normal life. Also taking care of the child might cost the parents to much $$ and they shouldnt have to live with the burden of having to take care of a retarded child. The final one is the parent thats not ready and isnt a raging slut/whore. If they arent ready for the child they have the choice to choose whether they keep the child or have an abortion. I look at life this way. All these people are angry and dont agree with stem cell research. Look at it this way. We kill a young calf to eat veal. We do studies on animals and use them in labs. Not every person except for stupid ass vegetarians or animal freaks get upset over that. So what makes a human life more important then the life of an animal? Nothing we are both animals. So why get upset over abortions? If you dont like abortions, then do this. Don't eat anything made with chicken eggs, doh, there goes most deserts and breakfast. Quit eating meat and animal bi products.. If you think all life deserves a chance then don't eat the animals. Enough said. Everyone has a choice, it might not be the right choice but let me ask you this again, what is worse..a fetus being removed from a woman's body? or a mother/father killing a 9 month + old born child that went through the whole pregnancy? I know you might say well they are both murder, but in the end what is worse?
QUOTE(dmack_901 @ Jun 26 2005, 11:43 AM)
Women have had to give birth for thousands of years, and I understand it hurts, but... get over it. You can't just say, "oops, the condom broke"; "oops, I forgot to take the the pill"; "oops, I didn't know I'd get pregnant".