Post by: Xbox-Scene on July 03, 2007, 07:09:00 PM
Microsoft Denies Forza 2 Causing 'Major' 360 Issues Posted by XanTium | July 3 20:33 EST | News Category: Xbox360 |
| From 1up.com: Quote
Full Story: 1up.com |
Post by: warbeast on July 03, 2007, 06:44:00 PM
Post by: Pouper on July 03, 2007, 06:46:00 PM
Post by: Heet on July 03, 2007, 07:01:00 PM
Post by: ILLusions0fGrander on July 03, 2007, 07:08:00 PM
funny how a console works fine up until 2 minutes after a game is booted, then ceases to work, yet it isnt the games fault by stressing the CPU to new levels, causing more heat than the console has previously experienced.
im sure if i had loaded splinter cell or rainbow six it woulded have given me 3 ROL anyways, huh?
im tired of ranting about it, tired of seeing it in multiple forum news topics that 360's are failing... no compensation, just frustration.
eh.. whatever.. there is a problem, and its not been addressed properly since launch. this is the first system ive ever had go bad aside from my launch day sega CD that i had to return. but even the one i got day after launch still works!
i have a gamegear with a shattered screen that still works.
/rant /rant. bleh.
edit: id really like to know if there is one particular factor that separates the 360's that cook under stress, and the ones that work fine since launch.
This post has been edited by ILLusions0fGrander: Jul 4 2007, 02:09 AM
Post by: quarky42 on July 03, 2007, 07:20:00 PM
http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EE...FVFhHnbraxF.php
Microshaft tried to tell us that the ring of death errors were "limited" and that reports of widespread problems was simply people being over-reactive... Now retailers are starting to admit what Microshaft isn't willing to admit.
This post has been edited by quarky42: Jul 4 2007, 02:21 AM
Post by: Muzzakus on July 03, 2007, 07:44:00 PM
Obviously this is nothing to do with Forza. It's the shit 360 design again. A great game comes out, more people play it, the console sees more hours of gaming, ensuring more stress. More people playing also equals more likelyhood of people experiencing the 360's inherent random failures.
Add 2 and 2 together. When will it stop M$ ?!?
You've climed to the lofty hights you've enjoyed thus far and your fall will be harder!
I've been bagging the PS3 pretty hard, and as underwhelming as that system is - thank goodness for market competition. Imagine M$ had a monopoly - it would be a disaster.
Muz
Post by: nectar12 on July 03, 2007, 07:12:00 PM
QUOTE(Muzzakus @ Jul 3 2007, 09:44 PM) 
Microsoft Denies, Denies, Denies...
Obviously this is nothing to do with Forza. It's the shit 360 design again. A great game comes out, more people play it, the console sees more hours of gaming, ensuring more stress. More people playing also equals more likelyhood of people experiencing the 360's inherent random failures.
Add 2 and 2 together. When will it stop M$ ?!?
You've climed to the lofty hights you've enjoyed thus far and your fall will be harder!
I've been bagging the PS3 pretty hard, and as underwhelming as that system is - thank goodness for market competition. Imagine M$ had a monopoly - it would be a disaster.
Muz
You know just what to say (speak to me!!)
Post by: willyfonsworth on July 03, 2007, 08:01:00 PM
No backups, all original discs. My Gears disc is pretty banged up too. So the optical drive is not having any trouble reading game discs.
Post by: cloudyimpulse on July 03, 2007, 08:46:00 PM
Other than that, we just talked about the good old days, when all you had to do was blow into your Nintendo and the cartridge to fix your own machine back in the 80's. Man I'm 26 and I'm starting to feel old after talking to my nephew. Ugh... 2 Buttons???
This post has been edited by cloudyimpulse: Jul 4 2007, 03:49 AM
Post by: dmitri on July 03, 2007, 09:04:00 PM
1. The community has Microsoft by the short and curlys. In their most recent interviews, they don't talk about the 'industry standard failure rate' anymore. Expect a response soon, but no response shows the real truth. They usually respond to negative news in the same day.
2. Microsoft knows more than we do about the pirated iXtreme firmware. They stick by their "go ahead and return it", which only the pro modders can do.
#1 is good for pirates, #2 good for Microsoft.
Hmm..
Post by: luther349 on July 03, 2007, 09:10:00 PM
This post has been edited by luther349: Jul 4 2007, 04:23 AM
Post by: willyfonsworth on July 03, 2007, 09:24:00 PM
On a side note, I was very pleased with the way M$ handled my broken 360. Sent box and received refurb unit exactly 1 week later. Not entirely sure why people are having trouble with the repair centers.
Post by: FCTE on July 03, 2007, 09:41:00 PM
The only thing I noticed is it worked the DVD drive real real hard and the disk quit spinning and threw up a "clean disk" error twice on me. But no real "system" crashes, black outs, or graphical issues.
Post by: willyfonsworth on July 03, 2007, 09:09:00 PM
QUOTE(FCTE @ Jul 3 2007, 11:41 PM)
I've never had any problems and I played for four weeks straight almost, only quit recently after being burnt out on the game and getting Overlord.
The only thing I noticed is it worked the DVD drive real real hard and the disk quit spinning and threw up a "clean disk" error twice on me. But no real "system" crashes, black outs, or graphical issues.
This may actually make sense because the game only freezes during load screens. Oh well nothing much that can be done really. Possibly hope that my box will die before the warranty is up
Maybe the next one will be a good refurb unit
Post by: HaredX on July 03, 2007, 09:45:00 PM
That's what they say about every single problem that comes up with the 360
Post by: 0794 on July 03, 2007, 09:46:00 PM
but when a thread is removed and "protected" for the moderators only because those in charge did not like the problems that the thread revealed - that is exactly similar to sweeping the problem under a rug. you can just as easily close a thread from further responses - but this thread was removed. dirty, very dirty...
Post by: FCTE on July 03, 2007, 09:31:00 PM
QUOTE(willyfonsworth @ Jul 3 2007, 10:45 PM)
This may actually make sense because the game only freezes during load screens. Oh well nothing much that can be done really. Possibly hope that my box will die before the warranty is up
Maybe the next one will be a good refurb unit
Yeah the load screens will feeze and the music will get stuck, it will either bounce back and start the race most of the time, or the disk will stall and you will either get a black screen or disk clean error. I think if anything Forza 2 may be a DVD drive killer.
I'm in the same boat, If it's going to die I want it within warranty. It's a catch 22, I know I can modify it to run really cool and void my warranty, or keep my warranty and let it fry and be fixed for free. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I really don't want a refurb some 12 year old kicked the crap out of, I keep my box in pristine condition.
QUOTE(794 @ Jul 3 2007, 10:46 PM)
but when a thread is removed and "protected" for the moderators only because those in charge did not like the problems that the thread revealed - that is exactly similar to sweeping the problem under a rug. you can just as easily close a thread from further responses - but this thread was removed. dirty, very dirty...
Frequent the Xbox.com forums and you will see all kinds dissappearing Xbox problem threads.
Post by: lilgamer327 on July 03, 2007, 10:15:00 PM
Post by: ThaCrip on July 03, 2007, 10:13:00 PM
QUOTE(Pouper @ Jul 3 2007, 08:46 PM)
No problems here. I've been playing FM2 since the day it came out and my Xbox has been running great.
same here i aint had any issues with the game either.
p.s. forza 2 is by far the best simulation game ever (only other game close is original forza on xbox 1)
Post by: jaymeturner on July 03, 2007, 11:35:00 PM
went into target 1/2 hour later and their 360 was the same. maybe linked to Forza 2?
Post by: Muzzakus on July 03, 2007, 11:38:00 PM
QUOTE(jaymeturner @ Jul 4 2007, 05:35 AM)
Dont know if it is related or not but the other day I went into Bigw and saw a 360 with heaps of Forza 2 posters around it, had a flashing red light and E65 on the tv, I thought to myself "good marketing guys".
went into target 1/2 hour later and their 360 was the same. maybe linked to Forza 2?
The only relations would be perhaps...
If Forza2 has above average disc access = HEAT
If Forza2 wallops all 3 CPU cores constantly = HEAT
If Forza2 wallops THE GPU constantly with it's the 60fps goodness = HEAT
360 design + HEAT = DOOM
Other than that, any 360 game can cause failure as any use of the 360 is a fast train to 3RLOD.
Muz
Post by: sandmanza on July 04, 2007, 12:22:00 AM
No it did not, your console finally stuffed out, all the game did was put the console under enough stress to finally push it over the edge. With games coming out that push consoles more and more we will see more and more "The game bricked my console" threads. Microsoft better start making their consoles better than they are now, which wouldn't be hard at all, I mean they make them any worse and the first thing to greet you when you take out your brand new 360 would be 3RLOD.
Post by: Vrtclhykr on July 04, 2007, 12:26:00 AM
The machine is now FW Orig and freezes on any original game ....that is if it makes it to the dashboard at all without ROD.
All I can say if this turns true.....WOW!!!! WTF are these clowns up to.
VrT
Post by: sandmanza on July 04, 2007, 12:31:00 AM
Vrtclhykr: Firmware wouldnt have made a difference at all, how my console started out was sometimes getting the RLOD to getting it most of the time to getting it all of the time.
When my 12 month warranty comes to an end, first thing I am going to do is improve the cooling and get rid of the x-clamps.
This post has been edited by sandmanza: Jul 4 2007, 07:32 AM
Post by: cerberus414 on July 04, 2007, 01:31:00 AM
Like..... Can people learn how technology works.
Unless, there are special instruction in the game to shutdown the CPU FAN or make the hard drive spin backwards, then I understand, other than that, there is theoretical no other way to make the software break the console physically.... So stop whining
Maybe people just get so picky about little glitches that they automatically think the system is broken.....Just maybe.
This post has been edited by cerberus414: Jul 4 2007, 08:32 AM
Post by: d-range on July 04, 2007, 02:18:00 AM
QUOTE(cerberus414 @ Jul 4 2007, 09:31 AM) 
Like..... Can people learn how technology works.
Unless, there are special instruction in the game to shutdown the CPU FAN or make the hard drive spin backwards, then I understand, other than that, there is theoretical no other way to make the software break the console physically.... So stop whining
What a load of BS. Maybe, just *maybe* the *hardware* does not have enough cooling capacity? Or the infamous CPU/GPU solder connections are not sufficiently resistant to the heat dissipation the 360 was designed with? If the game pushes the machine over some limit that should not cause any problems, but it does, then the console might have fundamental heat dissipation design flaws, or just shoddy manufacturing. It has nothing to do with 'software destroying your hardware', because it is just software causing the hardware to break the hardware itself. As for the 'special instruction in the game to shutdown the CPU fan': I think you should learn about 'how technology works' some more yourself. The fan *is* actually driven by software, just not by the game but by the kernel which monitors the heat sensor on the motherboard. So yes, if there's a software flaw in the kernel it might actually cause the fan to spin too slowly or indeed even stop. Ofcourse it is highly unlikely the kernel has such flaws, but it does show that you actually can break hardware by faulty software.
I've been playing Forza 2 a lot but gladly no problems (yet). Have to admit my machine seems to be from a better batch or something anyway, because I only had it freeze on me twice, both times in Just Cause. I suspect that might have been a software issue after all, because it is not nearly the most demanding game I played, I never played long sessions of it, and for now no other game has ever frozen on me...
I know for sure that tonight I will flash to iXtreme 1.2b. With the slower read spead I can imagine the DVD drive will generate just that little bit less heat to stay safe.
This post has been edited by d-range: Jul 4 2007, 09:25 AM
Post by: cerberus414 on July 04, 2007, 02:28:00 AM
QUOTE(d-range @ Jul 4 2007, 03:18 AM)
What a load of BS. Maybe, just *maybe* the *hardware* does not have enough cooling capacity? Or the infamous CPU/GPU solder connections are not sufficiently resistant to the heat dissipation the 360 was designed with? If the game pushes the machine over some limit that should not cause any problems, but it does, then the console might have fundamental heat dissipation design flaws, or just shoddy manufacturing. It has nothing to do with 'software destroying your hardware', because it is just software causing the hardware to break the hardware itself. As for the 'special instruction in the game to shutdown the CPU fan': I think you should learn about 'how technology works' some more yourself. The fan *is* actually driven by software, just not by the game but by the kernel which monitors the heat sensor on the motherboard. So yes, if there's a software flaw in the kernel it might actually cause the fan to spin too slowly or indeed even stop. Ofcourse it is highly unlikely the kernel has such flaws, but it does show that you actually can break hardware by faulty software.
I've been playing Forza 2 a lot but gladly no problems (yet). Have to admit my machine seems to be from a better batch or something anyway, because I only had it freeze on me twice, both times in Just Cause. I suspect that might have been a software issue after all, because it is not nearly the most demanding game I played, I never played long sessions of it, and for now no other game has ever frozen on me...
I know for sure that tonight I will flash to iXtreme 1.2b. With the slower read spead I can imagine the DVD drive will generate just that little bit less heat to stay safe.
Ever heard of CPU Temperature threshold. Pretty much hardwired into any CPU to shutdown when it reaches like 110 Celsius or whatever. The problem is that the soldering which is lead-free (plus the X-clamp flaw) melts before the CPU can reach that threshold. Maybe you can consider that as being a hardware flaw and I do agree with you that more demanding games = more cpu usage hence more heat, but games DO NOT control the cpu fans. I mean there is a direct relationship, but they don't have control over it.
BTW, the temperature sensor is not really a sensor because its a just a piece of wire through which a constant current is passed through to calculate resistance and approximate temperature. And isn't it inside the CPU not the mobo?
This post has been edited by cerberus414: Jul 4 2007, 09:35 AM
Post by: forzadude2 on July 04, 2007, 02:34:00 AM
Post by: ConteZero76 on July 04, 2007, 02:35:00 AM
QUOTE(cerberus414 @ Jul 4 2007, 08:31 AM)
Honestly......
Like..... Can people learn how technology works.
Unless, there are special instruction in the game to shutdown the CPU FAN or make the hard drive spin backwards, then I understand, other than that, there is theoretical no other way to make the software break the console physically.... So stop whining
Maybe people just get so picky about little glitches that they automatically think the system is broken.....Just maybe.
Hey, would you drive a Ferrari F40 with NOS addon without ABS ?
I can assure you that there will be no "disable brakes" switch so there's no way the NOS (or the lack of ABS) will make the car unstable from a theoretical point of view.
So stop whining (and/or screaming) when you'll go downhill at full throttle.
When something is engineered in a BAD way every little push can break the whole, Forza Motorsport 2 is a big push on the hardware and since the hardware is unable to handle the heat the whole thing could (and sometimes DOES) break.
Heck, with an air conditioner over the XBox360 this shouldn't be an issue but since we're living in a REAL world where HEAT exist, dust DO decrease airflow and people get angry when things break down... well, you know.
Microsoft and SiS (the actual board designer) screwed big time with the thermal design and they are unwilling to fix the issue, they'll leave the things as they are until, someday, 65nm will come and, when the failure rate will decrease, some half assed marketing manager will come and tell "as you can see XBox360 is rock stable".
When this will happen every "early" (two years) adopter will go to that famous site with the "you are an idiot.. ohohoh-ohohohoh" song.
This post has been edited by ConteZero76: Jul 4 2007, 09:43 AM
Post by: sandmanza on July 04, 2007, 03:19:00 AM
COOLING:
There is a standard cooling setup to the xbox 360, unlike a PC where you mite have a sucky cooling setup and you get pushed beyond the limits by some demanding software causing your PC to crash due to heat you are already handed a sucky cooling setup with the xbox 360 which to change you would have to mod yourself or end up getting one of those improved cooling setups that has been seen by 360's coming back from the repair center. However when forza 2 was being made these would not have been on the market.
USER ERROR:
I doubt every single person has their console away from heat sources and in well ventilated areas, I bet lots sit on carpets, in cabinets, on top of other electronics etc... I also doubt that everyone has nice "clean" surge free power feeding their xbox 360 either this can also degrade electronics
SOFTWARE DAMAGE:
The most software can do is stress the existing components more than usual causing excessive heat in the CPU/GPU side of things or extra wear and tear on the dvd drive.
END NOTE:
If your console has failed you have fallen victim to poor design that is rampant in the xbox 360. If your 360 is out of warranty I suggest you get the cooling improved, there are many mods out there that will help you out.
dont blame the game, blame the hardware.
Post by: elitegamer360 on July 04, 2007, 04:35:00 AM
I know for sure all the people who is suffering from problems are not keeping their 360's in a well ventilated area and away from any thing that it can block its intake and exhaust.
even if you put it some where in the TV cabinet thats not good at all, the 360 needs to be on its own in an open area with nothing sourounding it. I even open the windows in my room when I'm playing day or night and thats helps very much if you dont know.
NO air circulation X360 breaks down. FULLSTOP
Post by: goodl on July 04, 2007, 04:39:00 AM
Post by: elitegamer360 on July 04, 2007, 05:04:00 AM
the X360 inside a living room at normal room temps is not enouph and it will be bricked sooner or later you need to open windows or have a fan placed at its air intake, any way most of the blame goes to MS for the bad cooling design.
Post by: tehd00d on July 04, 2007, 04:32:00 AM
http://www.news0r.com/index.php?p=2801
Considering how Sony's anonymous writers at the official Sony blog recently bashed Microsoft's Larry "Major Nelson" Hryb for hiding behind a pseudonym, perhaps Sony is still desperate enough to resort to such earlier tactics again. Sony is going to soon be hyping the next Gran Turismo as one of the defining reasons to buy a PS3, and the worse Forza 2 looks by comparison, the better off Sony will be.
Post by: Winchy on July 04, 2007, 05:08:00 AM
But a friend had a retail version which he was playing a fair bit on a rarely used console he's got.
I kept seeing the Forza thing come up but didn't pay attention as it wasn't affecting me. Then my friend says he's been getting black screens in Forza, TP8 and Rainbow 6.
I said that his laser might be off or something but I wouldn't be able to do anything for that as it would be a first for me.
Then it occurred to me he had played Forza quite a lot. I told him and said don't play it as much.
I guess there could be a link.
Post by: Neilor on July 04, 2007, 05:24:00 AM
A few points specific to my situation, which I believe don't categorize me as crying wolf:
1. The box has never been modded, never seen a backup disc.
2. It has never hung since I got it... +4 months.
3. The screen would freeze in game and in dash, hot or cold.
4. While I was enjoying playing Forza, I didn't play more that 1-2hours a night... same as any other game I've had in the past 4 months.
5. I've stopped playing Forza for the last 3 days, and I have not seen a single glitch or freeze-up.
This issue, whether it's a small percentage or not, is real and is related to Forza... of this I'm a 100% certain.
And before the lucky ones that haven't seen a problem start to ring in with the flame posts....I've worked in the electronics industry for over 15 years making devices as complicated and in some cases more complicated than the 360.... and Yes I have seen software that can, not through design or intent, overstress and crash/damage hardware.... it's a bit disingenuous of Turn 10 to dismiss their software as being a contributor to the problem out of hand, and hide the forum topic away from the general public, their customers.
This post has been edited by Neilor: Jul 4 2007, 12:27 PM
Post by: bucko on July 04, 2007, 06:10:00 AM
People just get it over it, send it back to MS or complain that the 360 has a crap cooling system and ask for a product recall.
This post has been edited by bucko: Jul 4 2007, 01:10 PM
Post by: billyUsuck on July 04, 2007, 06:23:00 AM
edit:spelling
This post has been edited by billyUsuck: Jul 4 2007, 01:27 PM
Post by: d-range on July 04, 2007, 06:55:00 AM
QUOTE(cerberus414 @ Jul 4 2007, 10:28 AM)
Ever heard of CPU Temperature threshold. Pretty much hardwired into any CPU to shutdown when it reaches like 110 Celsius or whatever. The problem is that the soldering which is lead-free (plus the X-clamp flaw) melts before the CPU can reach that threshold. Maybe you can consider that as being a hardware flaw and I do agree with you that more demanding games = more cpu usage hence more heat, but games DO NOT control the cpu fans. I mean there is a direct relationship, but they don't have control over it.
BTW, the temperature sensor is not really a sensor because its a just a piece of wire through which a constant current is passed through to calculate resistance and approximate temperature. And isn't it inside the CPU not the mobo?
BTW, the temperature sensor is not really a sensor because its a just a piece of wire through which a constant current is passed through to calculate resistance and approximate temperature. And isn't it inside the CPU not the mobo?
It would surprise me if the 360 had something like CPU frequency scaling built-in, because that would mean in-game performance would not be reliable for different setups (environments) anymore. There might be a 'shutoff temperature' like you describe and most CPU's indeed do have, but this would not help much if the console breaks because of bad soldering *before* that threshhold is reached. So we agree about that. I specifically did not say games control the fan, the kernel controls that, just that software *can* wreck your hardware (the kernel is also software, remember). That's not to say that any game can be blamed for breaking the hardware, because if that were true, Microsoft made an unreliable system and/or unreliable kernel.
QUOTE(bucko @ Jul 4 2007, 02:10 PM)
lol lol, same people that think updates brick peoples consoles, now they think games are, lmao.
I remember that when the fall update was released unmodified consoles were also bricked with the E74 error. Something with refurbished consoles that had the DVD drive swapped for a different model. So in fact it is not completely nonsense that an update could break the console.
Post by: Hoyt on July 04, 2007, 07:45:00 AM
QUOTE
Microsoft and SiS (the actual board designer) screwed big time with the thermal design
Holy cow. I have been in the PC industry for over ten years now. In my experience some of the worst motherboard designs with the least reliability were from SiS.
Man, that little tidbit of information alone tells me all I need to know about the Xbox 360s reliability.
I wonder if SiS is making the boards for the Elite version as well?
This post has been edited by Hoyt: Jul 4 2007, 02:46 PM
Post by: JaXbox on July 04, 2007, 08:01:00 AM
QUOTE(Hoyt @ Jul 4 2007, 03:45 PM)
Holy cow. I have been in the PC industry for over ten years now. In my experience some of the worst motherboard designs with the least reliability were from SiS.
Agreed. I have terrible experience with SiS aswell.
Edit: I had no idea this problem existed untill I visited XS-site today. Haven't had any problems with my 360, as of yet. But I usually don't play Forza2 for more than 1/2 hours a time.
This post has been edited by JaXbox: Jul 4 2007, 03:03 PM
Post by: Gobelet on July 04, 2007, 08:07:00 AM
Post by: BecomethemonsteR on July 04, 2007, 08:10:00 AM
Post by: Hoyt on July 04, 2007, 08:44:00 AM
QUOTE
Everyone that doesn't have shit for brains knows this is a fad.
I'll leave it for folks with better etiquette than me to respond to that one.
I'll try to give an analogy I thought of. In the late eighties and early nineties GM was using the famous 700R four speed automatic transmission in their trucks. Almost everyone I knew of that had one (including the previous owner of my truck) had it fail before 75,000 miles. You ask any transmission tech about that tranny and he will tell you that they used weak components in the unit. When they rebuilt them they would use stronger components and it would be much more reliable. A lot of folks never had one fail. Quite often these were people that never hauled any loads or towed anything.
So to complete a possible analogy:
Most games=light load
Forza 2=heavily loaded
The heavy load could push a unit past the threshold of failure.
Post by: ConteZero76 on July 04, 2007, 08:21:00 AM
Sis also supplies (design, build and such) the southbridge.
Post by: luther349 on July 04, 2007, 08:48:00 AM
QUOTE(FCTE @ Jul 4 2007, 05:41 AM)
I've never had any problems and I played for four weeks straight almost, only quit recently after being burnt out on the game and getting Overlord.
The only thing I noticed is it worked the DVD drive real real hard and the disk quit spinning and threw up a "clean disk" error twice on me. But no real "system" crashes, black outs, or graphical issues.
now that makes more sence then the orignal post. that might be a inbalenced disk i have a copy of splintercell that does the same thing and the disk has no scraches. but it doesent do it all the time and the games still very playble. but thats a defect that happones often when the press they and normaly has no effect on the disk but sometimes it does.
Post by: Viper323 on July 04, 2007, 09:12:00 AM
Post by: Knasen on July 04, 2007, 09:18:00 AM
When GuitarHero2 came people said it bricked their 360.
When GoW came people said it bricked their 360.
Now people claim Forza 2 bricks it? Come on, you people can't be serious...
Yes, 360s can break but imo its just bad luck and nothing to do with the actual coding/bugs of a game but perhaps if it puts alot of stress on the CPU/GPU for a very long time that it finally overheats the motherboard or circuitry, but in that case that's a hardware problem (not shutting of when temperature exceeds critical value or proper cooling) and not related to a specific game.
Post by: bob_barker on July 04, 2007, 10:23:00 AM
This pedantic bickering about whether games can cause failures is ridiculous. YES, the issue is OBVIOUSLY that the game stresses the console! So what?
Gears bricked my first console, brand new, after 4 hours of play. And when I try to find out anything about it, all I get is fanbois ranting about how I must have moved the console, or stood it on its side, or done something wrong. And now this news comes out.
The failure rate for the 360 is _UNACCEPTABLE_, and it seems clear to me that MS rushed the design to market without adequate testing. 4 hours of Gears of War, in a room that is 75 degrees Fahrenheit, adequate space on all sides (only device on the shelf), screws up a piece of consumer electronics?
I'm an engineer for a _VERY_ large radio and other electronics company. I think I know WTF I'm doing with a piece of consumer electronics. I also know that the failure rate of the 360 is way higher than anything we've experienced, at least once we've gotten the design down, gone through rounds of environmental and stress testing, etc. You're telling me MS didn't have a test suite that could stress the hardware like Gears and Forza have? Bullshit. There is NO reason for these issues to be coming to light now, except for gross incompetence on MS's part (not likely) or a rushed product with flaws they're unwilling to admit to (very likely). And we, the consumer, their base, are paying the price.
I will say that, at my company, when we moved our radio product to lead-free solder for RoHS compliance we experienced much, MUCH higher failure rates, and it has been a struggle to adapt our manufacturing. I would expect for a company like SiS to have this down pat, though.
In short, screw MS, and screw the people defending their actions. We're all in this together, as gaming fans, right? All I want is for my very expensive 479 dollar console to work with some degree of reliability!
Post by: pRtkL xLr8r on July 04, 2007, 12:15:00 PM
It seems that the latest popular games (Gears, Guitar Hero, H3 Beta, Forza) have been blamed, but that is I think because the 360 you have *will* eventually fail, especially if it's a launch one. These new games are coming out now, when the 360 has been now weakened to the point that it only takes one good game to push it over the falls, so to speak. I was a casual user of the system, so since Nov of 2005, I'd say I played maybe 10 hours a week (that's probably high). When Gears came out, I played that baby non stop for a few weeks. That right there I thought was the test. Never a problem. It was when I played the H3 beta that it finally died. Were I a more avid gamer, it would have died with GOW. Were I a less avid gamer (or didn't get into the beta), it would have died with Forza.
I saw someone say in one of the posts of this thread that replacing the firmware would make the 360 run cooler -- how exactly is this possible?
Post by: ThaCrip on July 04, 2007, 12:57:00 PM
QUOTE(bob_barker @ Jul 4 2007, 12:59 PM)
The amount of ignorance displayed by Xbox fanbois is amazing...
This pedantic bickering about whether games can cause failures is ridiculous. YES, the issue is OBVIOUSLY that the game stresses the console! So what?
Gears bricked my first console, brand new, after 4 hours of play. And when I try to find out anything about it, all I get is fanbois ranting about how I must have moved the console, or stood it on its side, or done something wrong. And now this news comes out.
The failure rate for the 360 is _UNACCEPTABLE_, and it seems clear to me that MS rushed the design to market without adequate testing. 4 hours of Gears of War, in a room that is 75 degrees Fahrenheit, adequate space on all sides (only device on the shelf), screws up a piece of consumer electronics?
I'm an engineer for a _VERY_ large radio and other electronics company. I think I know WTF I'm doing with a piece of consumer electronics. I also know that the failure rate of the 360 is way higher than anything we've experienced, at least once we've gotten the design down, gone through rounds of environmental and stress testing, etc. You're telling me MS didn't have a test suite that could stress the hardware like Gears and Forza have? Bullshit. There is NO reason for these issues to be coming to light now, except for gross incompetence on MS's part (not likely) or a rushed product with flaws they're unwilling to admit to (very likely). And we, the consumer, their base, are paying the price.
I will say that, at my company, when we moved our radio product to lead-free solder for RoHS compliance we experienced much, MUCH higher failure rates, and it has been a struggle to adapt our manufacturing. I would expect for a company like SiS to have this down pat, though.
In short, screw MS, and screw the people defending their actions. We're all in this together, as gaming fans, right? All I want is for my very expensive 479 dollar console to work with some degree of reliability!
i would agree with you here quite a bit cause i think the bottom line is (like you said) ... certain games (like forza 2) strees the CPU/GPU quite a bit which jacks up heat which = stuff dies.
QUOTE(pRtkL xLr8r @ Jul 4 2007, 02:51 PM)
I had a launch 360, and never gave me a blip of problems, so I thought I was in the clear. I had put the intercooler thingy on just in case though. It seems maybe it just delayed the inevitable, because during the Halo 3 beta (of all fricken' times) I got the 3 red rings, 0402 or 0403 general hardware failure. Searched online and did the towel trick. Worked for a day or so, then locked tight and ringed again. Couldn't play that game forever, so I went and bought a new core system at Walmart so I could just transfer over the HDD. They asked if I wanted a 2 year service plan for 17 bucks. I thought they were absolutely insane for offering, and more than gladly took them up on the offer.
It seems that the latest popular games (Gears, Guitar Hero, H3 Beta, Forza) have been blamed, but that is I think because the 360 you have *will* eventually fail, especially if it's a launch one. These new games are coming out now, when the 360 has been now weakened to the point that it only takes one good game to push it over the falls, so to speak. I was a casual user of the system, so since Nov of 2005, I'd say I played maybe 10 hours a week (that's probably high). When Gears came out, I played that baby non stop for a few weeks. That right there I thought was the test. Never a problem. It was when I played the H3 beta that it finally died. Were I a more avid gamer, it would have died with GOW. Were I a less avid gamer (or didn't get into the beta), it would have died with Forza.
I saw someone say in one of the posts of this thread that replacing the firmware would make the 360 run cooler -- how exactly is this possible?
only thing i can think of that makes sence is... if you run the 4x reading speed firmware (iXtreme 1.2b) it will reduce heat of the dvd-rom drive itself since the drive motor aint going to spin it @ 12x (stock speed) so less motor movement to me would mean less heat... even though im guessing it's a minimal difference that i highly doubt would mean the difference between a working 360 and a dead 360.
Post by: Havok on July 04, 2007, 01:54:00 PM
QUOTE(BecomethemonsteR @ Jul 4 2007, 10:10 AM)
Everyone that doesn't have shit for brains knows this is a fad. Every time a new game is released, there is a slew of topics like 'FM2 killed my 360!' or 'WTF FM2 is a 360 killer'. I have looked solely for topics like this on release days. Surprisingly, I haven't seen a '_________ killed my 360' thread for Harry Potter: OotP yet...
Actually I can start that tread... LOL... its all I have been playing lately and BAM.. graphical glitches and a freeze.. my 360 will only run cold and then hang when heat builds.
Do I think the game killed my console because its uber stressing the system... ahhh... NO.
With regards to Forza 2... if the game hangs and it doesn't adversely affect your box as a whole... then the game is at fault.
If its a case like mine where all of a suddenly NO games work or you get a 3ROL... then it sthe hardware and has nothing to do with the game but cooincidence.
Post by: RudiBergers on July 04, 2007, 05:27:00 PM
Post by: Muzzakus on July 05, 2007, 01:12:00 AM
QUOTE(smokeynerd @ Jul 5 2007, 06:10 AM)
So I got forza on launch day , have played it every day since then with no problems, I read this thread this morning and went to play today and it locked while I was selecting a car, I reset the console and saw the 3 dreaded lights. I reset the console again, it froze during the 360 splash screen and gave me one red light. I yanked the HDD and reset it , it loaded ok then said it couldnt read the disc. I removed the disc and the HDD , started it up , then shut it down and put everything back. it played for an hour or so then froze.
BUT...... I did something the last time i played that I have never done before , I shutdown the console right after heavy playing without letting it idle for a while.
If you play forza now and your xbox is ok, I would highly reccomend letting it idle for a while before shutting down. letting it idle will let the components flex at a more gradual rate rather than just shutting off. If this becomes a real problem I will deffinatly want to kick myself for shutting down the machine that one time.
Just my 2 cents......
Yeah, but this is a consumer product. You shouldn't need to treat it like a specialist tunnel drilling machine with a 100 page complex operating procedure of do's and dont's. If there is a reason to cool it after powering off like a projector them M$ needed to build it in.
No one should be kicking themselvs about doing anything wrong with this device - it should handle all scenarios even down to a childs misuse.
All the consoles that shit themselves are MS's failure, plain and simple.
Muz
Post by: Chancer on July 05, 2007, 01:19:00 AM
QUOTE(Muzzakus @ Jul 5 2007, 08:48 AM)
Yeah, but this is a consumer product. You shouldn't need to treat it like a specialist tunnel drilling machine with a 100 page complex operating procedure of do's and dont's. If there is a reason to cool it after powering off like a projector them M$ needed to build it in.
No one should be kicking themselvs about doing anything wrong with this device - it should handle all scenarios even down to a childs misuse.
All the consoles that shit themselves are MS's failure, plain and simple.
Muz
I totally agree.
This is not some turbo charged supercar that you should have to let "idle" after playing.
Post by: Guidor on July 05, 2007, 01:22:00 AM
QUOTE(bob_barker @ Jul 4 2007, 05:59 PM)
The amount of ignorance displayed by Xbox fanbois is amazing...
This pedantic bickering about whether games can cause failures is ridiculous. YES, the issue is OBVIOUSLY that the game stresses the console! So what?
Gears bricked my first console, brand new, after 4 hours of play. And when I try to find out anything about it, all I get is fanbois ranting about how I must have moved the console, or stood it on its side, or done something wrong. And now this news comes out.
The failure rate for the 360 is _UNACCEPTABLE_, and it seems clear to me that MS rushed the design to market without adequate testing. 4 hours of Gears of War, in a room that is 75 degrees Fahrenheit, adequate space on all sides (only device on the shelf), screws up a piece of consumer electronics?
I'm an engineer for a _VERY_ large radio and other electronics company. I think I know WTF I'm doing with a piece of consumer electronics. I also know that the failure rate of the 360 is way higher than anything we've experienced, at least once we've gotten the design down, gone through rounds of environmental and stress testing, etc. You're telling me MS didn't have a test suite that could stress the hardware like Gears and Forza have? Bullshit. There is NO reason for these issues to be coming to light now, except for gross incompetence on MS's part (not likely) or a rushed product with flaws they're unwilling to admit to (very likely). And we, the consumer, their base, are paying the price.
I will say that, at my company, when we moved our radio product to lead-free solder for RoHS compliance we experienced much, MUCH higher failure rates, and it has been a struggle to adapt our manufacturing. I would expect for a company like SiS to have this down pat, though.
In short, screw MS, and screw the people defending their actions. We're all in this together, as gaming fans, right? All I want is for my very expensive 479 dollar console to work with some degree of reliability!
The guys got it bang on! I love my 360 but I'm expecting it to fail at some point in the near future which for a console is unacceptable. You have a right when you buy one to expect it to last the life cycle of that generation of console. Not all will but when you expect it to fail then that cant be right and shows it's not suitable for purpose. There will be a mass lawsuit in the future regarding these machine I have no doubts. The disgruntled user base grows daily. Once the PS3 is a more viable alternative it will effect future sales of the 360 as word of mouth and press coverage will dent the 360's reputation significantly.
Post by: Neilor on July 05, 2007, 02:20:00 AM
... the majority of which are in Class Action US of A or Regulatory-MS-hating Europe.... this is a powder keg that I wouldn't like to be sitting on.
Post by: scottmuller28 on July 05, 2007, 04:31:00 AM
When the cover is off it runs really lukewarm....
One thing I have noticed is the demand for mods in the past month has dropped off which I tend to think that sales are going to slow down for the 360. When at the movies watching Transformers and the 360 box was shown people yelled out thats got the ring of death... this is not good sign for the future of the console....
Post by: faithlesssoul on July 05, 2007, 12:05:00 PM
lord of the red rings
field of red rings
microsoft if you build it the three rings will come
lol
Post by: DriveJira on July 07, 2007, 11:08:00 PM
Post by: mercuryblade on July 18, 2007, 06:41:00 PM
Third time upon crashing, the 360 failed to turn back on except for the red lights... Luckily it didn't break, it turned on the next day. Since then I have given it about four more chances and each time the game has stalled. The issue cannot be heat as stalling can take place in less than a minute of being switched on.
There is no point in making a game that pushes the boundary too far, they should never have sacrificed stability for slightly better graphics. I will simply never buy a forza again, but think myself lucky that my 360 didn't need repairs.