Post by: Xbox-Scene on October 29, 2007, 06:49:00 PM
Lobbying group believes gamers need exceptions to DMCA Posted by XanTium | October 29 19:13 EST | News Category: Xbox360 |
| From arstechnica.com: Quote
Full Story: arstechnica.com |
Post by: MysticalMagnet on October 29, 2007, 07:02:00 PM
Post by: pirichios on October 29, 2007, 07:25:00 PM
Its about time the DMCA should be looked at for revisions
Post by: Hopeful on October 29, 2007, 07:40:00 PM
QUOTE(pirichios @ Oct 30 2007, 02:25 AM) 
fair use and homebrew for the win!
Its about time the DMCA should be looked at for revisions
So true
Even if "copyright" weren't a proposterous and unrightful idea to enforce upon people
Its current invasiveness needs to be cut down a LOT
Post by: g8crapachino on October 29, 2007, 10:22:00 PM
Post by: pirichios on October 29, 2007, 10:36:00 PM
QUOTE(g8crapachino @ Oct 30 2007, 06:22 AM)
Let's be realistic and stop being so one-sided. If fair use, homebrew, and backups of personal property was all people were really interested in then the DMCA and ECA wounld't even be necessary. But, so long as games are available for download and thousands of people trading, copying, and selling games that they never actually own the odds of the ECA succeeding are next to nothing. Every moron who brags in a forum about "owning" dozens of backups only hurts the situation. Call them pirates or whatever but so long as those people exist everyone will have to deal with copy protection and copyrights.
that is true, but i dont believe that people that strive for what is fair should be punished by the actions of those who dont respect copyrights.
Post by: Hopeful on October 30, 2007, 12:49:00 AM
The very idea that you can slap a legal sticker on something you design and build
telling others they're not allowed to craft themselves a duplicate of the same design, is ludicrous anyway
and seems like something people have no right to dictate
and seems no far stretch from being able to get a license telling folks they can't legally copy the way you breathe or build arts and crafts
just because you worked hard on something and can potentially make money off it, doesn't mean you have a right to fence it off and be the only one who can re-create it
sole sales rights I can understand, since it's just a license to scramble for legal tender which belongs to the gov't anyway. But that doesn't mean people should HAVE to buy it to recreate it. Just that the inventer can be the only one to TRY selling it.
Copyright itself though, just seems like authority masturbation, for the mere sake of entertainment industry wealth and health
And, even though it feeds the industry and keeps us rolling in available games to choose from
personally, the pleasure can never blind me to see it as right or acceptable
***
***
***
But, even within those boundaries there is a legal use for backups
We don't have to pretend anyone has the right to "outlaw" products that never actually "break copyright", just because someone can POTENTIALLY break copyright if they COMBINE their own "illegal software" with it
Which is like banning cigarette rolling papers because they CAN be combined with dope.
Personally, I'm rooting for these guys.
This post has been edited by Hopeful: Oct 30 2007, 07:56 AM
Post by: SueMiBlitch on October 30, 2007, 02:54:00 AM
if u bought a game you should be able to make copies for your personal use (ie. a backup) - its 60 bucks for a game and one scratch screws you over
people who sell burnt games should be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law because they are using someones elses hard work to make money without compensation to the author
Post by: Jstraw on October 30, 2007, 05:40:00 AM
DCMA is a laymen terms for milking the consumer wallet. As a consumer, we are the ones who pay for all these laws and restrictions through inflated costs. If the media industry was all that concerned about copy protection than there would be different ways of distributing material to the consumer that ensure limited copying ability as well as a product that is physically stronger and able to handle abuse. What we don't realize, THERE IS A MARKET FOR EXPENDABLE ITEMS! that greatly increases profit and can sometimes double or triple a profit margin.Why do you think we have format wars every couple of years?
My answer is, so we, as a consumer, have multiple copies of items that do the same thing.
Think about the evolution of gaming consoles, from expensive cartridges to cheap laser disc media.
Think about why media is so cheap now.
Until consumers realize there is a market for disposable product (the WalMart factor) then we will continue to pay for invisible product like DCMA, which is just words on paper.
Post by: 1nsan3 on October 30, 2007, 06:23:00 AM
Post by: alexh on October 30, 2007, 06:24:00 AM
QUOTE(Jstraw @ Oct 30 2007, 01:16 PM) 
Think about the evolution of gaming consoles, from expensive cartridges to cheap laser disc media.
Think about the evolution of gaming consoles, from cheap games in months with 4 people paid just above minimum wage to expensive games which take years to develop, hundreds of people paid high salaries.
As the price of media came down, and the price of games went up (above inflation), the budget of the games production went up as much as 10x.
If your game is not a hit these days, you can almost guarantee you loose money on it. It's the one hit game every few years which pays for the flops.
As for backups, lots of companies are offering replacement media for $10 including shipping. There is no need for backups if there is a lifetime guarantee on your media.
If you still want modchips and backups with a "lifetime" guarantee on original game media, you gotta be no more than a common thief!
All those complaining about DMCA/modchips for "backups" are just upset that they cant get something for nothing without a risk any more, boo hoo. If you want to steal something, go ahead, use any self justification you like, you wont be the first and certainly not the last, but please dont get all righteous on us (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Homebrew is something else, I do feel that they should offer some outlet for homebrew. Without it, it stifles a generations creativity. Imagine where the games industry would be now without homebrew on the Amiga, C64 and Spectrum etc.
This post has been edited by alexh: Oct 30 2007, 01:34 PM
Post by: Jstraw on October 30, 2007, 06:04:00 AM
Modchips would then only be for homebrew which would be legal.
Boohoo for ppl like you who don't realize DCMA isn't for copy protection it is for inflation. Digital pirating is the opposite of DCMA which is the result of greed.
Give the ppl a secure product and warrenty at a fair price, there is no need for pirating and DCMA!
Post by: alexh on October 30, 2007, 07:24:00 AM
QUOTE(Jstraw @ Oct 30 2007, 01:40 PM)
Well then why quit making hard to reproduce cartridges?
Money. CD-ROM drives came down in price to a point where the CD-Drive wasnt a significant part of the BOM of the console. The media was much cheaper and the capacity 100x more.
They werent that hard to reproduce anyhow, SuperMagicom anyone?
QUOTE
Modchips would then only be for homebrew which would be legal.
If modchips were only for homebrew, they probably would never get made due to lack of demand and no incentive (profit) for the creators/manufacturers.
QUOTE
Boohoo for ppl like you who don't realize DCMA isn't for copy protection it is for inflation. Digital pirating is the opposite of DCMA which is the result of greed.
They make it, they set the price, you pay for it, or do with out. Simple as that.
QUOTE
Give the ppl a secure product and warranty at a fair price, there is no need for pirating and DCMA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pop.gif)
Agreed, but it is you and I and those around us, and their willingness (or lack of it) to part with their hard earned cash which sets the prices (and the budgets of todays games).
Plus it's never about the price, it's always about getting something for nothing! Back when games were $1.99 each you still had people trying to steal them. Twin-deck tape machines anyone?
This post has been edited by alexh: Oct 30 2007, 02:35 PM
Post by: lostboyz on October 30, 2007, 08:16:00 AM
Post by: Martinchris23 on October 30, 2007, 08:51:00 AM
QUOTE(alexh @ Oct 30 2007, 01:24 PM)
As for backups, lots of companies are offering replacement media for $10 including shipping. There is no need for backups if there is a lifetime guarantee on your media.
Of course there is - why should you be forced to pay for a replacement copy of the game? Is it your fault the game is presented on a medium prone to damage through scratches, heat, cold, etc? Why penalise the consumer with this fee?
My opinion is, either let people make a backup of the games they OWN or offer lifetime free replacements of the media. It costs pennies to press a disk and ship it out. At $10 (in the UK they want $20) they are still making money out of the medium failure - is this fair?
Post by: irnchriz on February 03, 2020, 09:09:00 AM
As for backups, this is never going to happen. And why would you want it to. There is no arguments FOR backups (unless you a re a thieving Pirate).
Homebrew. Microsoft should open up the XNA program more so that you would be able to run your own media center software etc easily. This would put a nail in the coffin for the people who scream that its their god given right to backup there games (yep, the Pirates again).
Post by: Chancer on October 30, 2007, 09:46:00 AM
QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Oct 30 2007, 03:27 PM)
Of course there is - why should you be forced to pay for a replacement copy of the game? Is it your fault the game is presented on a medium prone to damage through scratches, heat, cold, etc? Why penalise the consumer with this fee?
Is it fair that when you damage something someone else foots bill? Hardly.
I pay a lot of money for my games and as such , treat them with respect and store them correctly. Guess what? I have never had to replace one for being scratched.
Yes I have Kids that use them and they know to take care of them as well. Where do you think the extra costs involved in replacing games for free is made up. It will be added on to the games or in some other stealth tax. So you think I should pay to have peoples games replaced for free simply because they don't look after them.
I have seen far too often the way discs are treated by people. Out of cases, Thrown on the floor etc etc.
The old " Consoles scratch the games sometimes" doesn't wash either. In the rare case a console is faulty and damages a game that one game should be exchanged or paid for by the console manufacturer after inspection of the console to verify the fact.
I have no objections to chips and backups being legal, but if that does not become the case, free replacements is not the answer.
Post by: Jstraw on October 30, 2007, 10:17:00 AM
The only reason our cars aren't cardboard boxes with balloons for wheels with an $80,000.00 price tag is because the consumer spoke out about vehicle manufacturing and now there are laws to protect the people driving them. Is there a replacement program, Yes, but some of it the consumer is responsible for. Governments around the world heavily restrict the manufactures of vehicles right down to the paint, manufactures guarantee the inegrety of the vehicle because they are required to do so. Geared to protect the consumer. Money is still being made.
As for Media vender's, SCREW THEM! by the way, They deserve to be ripped off. A 50 million dollar movie is a work of art not a single serving sugar packet, the same as a video game that has thousands of hours behind it. ARTWORK! Monet, Picasso, blaa blaa blaa... So put the damn thing in a format and a package that has integrity and does not break down after 3 uses or become scratched by looking at it. Then you can arrest people for trying to rip it off.
Post by: Chancer on February 03, 2020, 02:32:00 PM
QUOTE
not all people are anal about the things they own and accidents do happen!
Yes. So why shouldn't you pay for accidents. If the discs are supplied scratch free they don't magically appear.
If I scratch my car paint work it's an accident, but I expect to pay for my accidents. Perhaps when it costs you to replace expensive things you don't take care of you will become more Anal. If you don't Boo Hoo. You pay not me!
QUOTE
So put the damn thing in a format and a package that has integrity and does not break down after 3 uses or become scratched by looking at it.
Complete and utter overstatement . I have 10 year old discs with no problems. If that makes me anal good, it also means I know the value of stuff and don't expect other people to bail out my mistakes, accidents etc.
This post has been edited by Chancer: Yesterday, 11:06 PM
Post by: Jstraw on October 30, 2007, 09:52:00 PM
Not attacking you Chancer or your statement. I get overheated when I see issues like these, DCMA, crackdowns, Arrests, etc... I can't believe people are so obtuse when it comes to laws that restrict consumer rights. (not attacking you) I am laughing right now because Spider Man 3 is being released. The commercial says "Now on DVD and Blue Ray, buy your copy now!"
But I own an HD Dvd Player
. What to do?? I am restricted to buy a copy in a format I no longer use but I would like to have a copy in HD because I just spent $3000.00 on a High Def entertainment system and I would like to utilize that system.Now the only way I see to get this movie in High Def is to purchase another Media system, Blue Ray, for an additional $300.00. That sucks! Now if I buy Blue Ray, I risk purchasing something that may not be supported in the future thus wasting A PILE OF MONEY.
I am now forced into finding alternative ways to get this movie in HD, the native format that is being pushed on consumers right now, and if I modify my system to play Blue RAY cheaper then the cost of buying a media system that will become obsolete, I am considered a pirate under DCMA laws and am subject to fines and jail.
So, to sum it all up, I am forced to buy a media system because the format has changed, High Definition. Then I am forced to buy Multiple media players because some of the media is only available on certain types, and lastly, all of this is NOT GUARANTEED. We are paying for their battles(inflation), when one backs out(recession), the only loser is the consumer.
Somebody needs to stand up and slap laws on the companies and require them to GUARANTEE what they are selling
Post by: HotKnife420 on October 30, 2007, 11:45:00 PM
QUOTE(Chancer @ Oct 30 2007, 05:22 PM)
Is it fair that when you damage something someone else foots bill? Hardly.
I pay a lot of money for my games and as such , treat them with respect and store them correctly. Guess what? I have never had to replace one for being scratched.
Yes I have Kids that use them and they know to take care of them as well. Where do you think the extra costs involved in replacing games for free is made up. It will be added on to the games or in some other stealth tax. So you think I should pay to have peoples games replaced for free simply because they don't look after them.
I have seen far too often the way discs are treated by people. Out of cases, Thrown on the floor etc etc.
The old " Consoles scratch the games sometimes" doesn't wash either. In the rare case a console is faulty and damages a game that one game should be exchanged or paid for by the console manufacturer after inspection of the console to verify the fact.
I have no objections to chips and backups being legal, but if that does not become the case, free replacements is not the answer.
I definately feel you on taking care of something that costs a lot. I have a child, and I'm doing my best to teach him to care for everything we have; namely optical discs. He's broken 3 movies of mine since he's been alive, but once he broke "Who's Harry Crumb?", I HAD to take it upon myself to teach him how to handle a disc(mind you, he's only 3). I've given him some "throw away media" to attempt to teach him, and he's actually doing quite well (you'd be amazed at how easy it is to teach a toddler to use a DVD player).
For any parents with children and disc problems as a result of such, read this:
Go to Best Buy or wherever and get some dirt cheap discs. Best Buy is good for having Dynex discs for Less than $10 for a 50 pack. These are horrible recordable media and are dirt cheap, so it's under $10 to teach your children this lesson (priceless...there are some things money can't buy...) You will also need a copy of a DVD your child enjoys a lot. With me, Spongebob worked just fine. Make a backup of your movie, put it in the case (or whever the retail copy would normally be) and give that to your child to practice putting in the DVD. When the child wants to watch it (feel free to suggest the idea), have them grab the case and they will be using the backup as a decoy (which still gives them the same result if they handle it properly). This is time consuming, but so are most things when it comes to your children (seriously, think about the day).
I will remind you parents that this was especially hard for me, as I'm a single parent, but sometimes you gotta take one for the team. I hate saying it like this, but it's just one of those "showing responsiblity" times for both you and your child at this point.
QUOTE(Jstraw @ Oct 30 2007, 05:53 PM)
not all people are anal about the things they own and accidents do happen! I think more than anything, Media vender's are exploiting this very thing by creating product that is easily destroyed, there wouldn't be a replacement program if product was created with integrity.
The only reason our cars aren't cardboard boxes with balloons for wheels with an $80,000.00 price tag is because the consumer spoke out about vehicle manufacturing and now there are laws to protect the people driving them. Is there a replacement program, Yes, but some of it the consumer is responsible for. Governments around the world heavily restrict the manufactures of vehicles right down to the paint, manufactures guarantee the inegrety of the vehicle because they are required to do so. Geared to protect the consumer. Money is still being made.
As for Media vender's, SCREW THEM! by the way, They deserve to be ripped off. A 50 million dollar movie is a work of art not a single serving sugar packet, the same as a video game that has thousands of hours behind it. ARTWORK! Monet, Picasso, blaa blaa blaa... So put the damn thing in a format and a package that has integrity and does not break down after 3 uses or become scratched by looking at it. Then you can arrest people for trying to rip it off.
This *IS* a problem as well. Many manufacturers of optical consumable media don't necessairly use the highest standards in their manufacturing process. Just because their ISO 9000 certified, doesn't mean anything, it just means they have a process that's "capable" of creating a quality product, but it can be poor design OR poor manufacturing that renders a poor quality product. The most drastic of differences would be to compare something like a Disney DVD to one of the $1 DVDs at wally world. Both are manufactured, but the $1 DVD is VERY poor quality, and prone to scratching. These being inferior product will also yield more drastic effects of a scratch versus a scratch of equal or lesser magnitude on a "common" DVD.
Many times, an upgrade in your DVD player can help you avoid issues with retail releases off the shelf, and subsequently, scratching (or playing with mild scratches). I have a GE from 2000 that still works, but once in a great blue moon, it will skip a bit on a movie. Most movies could have mild "hair" scratches and still play fine, as long as they were few. Anything consistant on the disc, however, would make it skip a lot. I have a cheap DVD player I bought from a crackhead for $20 (which now retails for $20 at wally world), that would probably play a pb&j sandwich if I threw it in, which is to say it plays discs that even have quite a few scratches).
Just because equipment can play a difference in how long your discs lasts, however, is no reason not to really try to come up with a solution to "accidents". I only have one child, but any "accident" on discs now will definately result in an "accidental ass-whoopin" (note quotes). The past 3 months I haven't had a single disc damaged, so I think it's accomplishable for most.
Post by: Chancer on February 04, 2020, 02:11:00 AM
QUOTE
I definately feel you on taking care of something that costs a lot. I have a child, and I'm doing my best to teach him to care for everything we have; namely optical discs. He's broken 3 movies of mine since he's been alive, but once he broke "Who's Harry Crumb?", I HAD to take it upon myself to teach him how to handle a disc(mind you, he's only 3). I've given him some "throw away media" to attempt to teach him, and he's actually doing quite well (you'd be amazed at how easy it is to teach a toddler to use a DVD player).
I definitely agree with teaching kids very young, the correct way to use equipment and handle media. I started with the old VCR with my kids when they were 2. It is amazing how versatile kids are and they learn very quickly the correct use.
The problems occur when kids are allowed to use discs as dance mats or frisbees. The amount of calls I get where discs and such are thrown everywhere and young kids are standing on them or playing with them as a toy.
It is a matter of taking as many precautions you can.
Faulty equipment can happen and I do believe this should be covered by the Manufacturer but only for one disc. I have had machines where the owner complains of having 6 or 7 discs scratched. After the first one don't put any more in the machine until the fault is examined.