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[ressurectionx]

QUOTE(kenshiro @ Nov 16 2009, 03:40 PM)

@BP: remember what i told you on MSN this morning, don't come on the forums without taking your medecine before! If medecine are not enough, you know i can give you a small kiss if necessary (or at least i can find someone to kiss you).

@others people who posted here: same but without the kiss (or maybe to Neil lol).
Come on! That's stupid!
 
You gonna have this problem in anyplace. Emulation scene is one of favorite place for the mister "i know everything", "i want this", "your work is shit", "my work is the best of the world", "i've the biggest d***".
Take Xbox emulation scene, it is the same problem X 10. Well whatever... What i mean is if you wanna live in peace you're actually in one of the worst place of the world lol. Just do what you love that's the most important but you already know that, isn't it?

Actually, it's not stupid, and we don't really have this problem here because of how we do things.  We get the occasional hater, but usually they end up doing work for the project.  That's because they don't have a million other idiots chiming in and ganging up on us, because they're still waiting for the emu.  Only contributors have betas, and they appreciate them enough that they've never been leaked.

This is why I defend BP.  Don't you be added to the list of people who come in here and insult our choices too Ken.  You're a coder, and even though you handle things differently, you're above doing that to people who have done the work we've done so far.

We have many other reasons not to release things.  The Xtras really need to be done for a lot of the features to work.  There's a lot of working updating videos and artwork now, wrapping up loose ends, starting new emulators and a million other little things I organize around here.

There's an NES beta out there now.  My apologies to anyone who wants more at this point but doesn't want to contribute, but there are ways of getting betas and there are plenty of people around here now that are aware of that.

Later,
~Rx

[cbagy]

As long as one can play there games and are happy with what they see or even how they see it, all is good. I think the info here is for guidelines only. I have myself always tried to display my games un-squished and not necessarily to a mathmatical formula, although 99% of the time thats the method i choose. I posted some time last week commenting, that regardless of whats considered most accurate, my older TV's always displayed in 640x480 so regardless of whats correct, thats what your getting anyway. Havent heard of any old school TV's available at the normal price that would display 320x240 / 320x224. It was good enough back in the day, in fact we "all" played that way ! Its only now that we have good emulators linked to our TV's that we have a method of re-sizing. If the truth be told and we were to stick to the original then most TV's would show a game @ 1/4 of the screen total area, even smaller for HD users. So we have to take a little poet license in trying to fill the screen. I do believe we have had a sensible debate here on the forum and "not" petty arguing. I myself have read every post with interest as i believe everyone has had a valid point. Just the points have been from a different view point. We havent discussed this in order to find common ground but merely to outline whats possible and what isnt. Any new users could find the info invaluluable. Perhaps some old hands find the info usefull. I think your all right. Its down to which game, which emulator, which TV, what filters if any etc.

One of my pet hates is to go to peoples houses and watch TV. 90% of them watch older 4:3 broadcast on their WideScreen TV's with no letterboxing. So everyone onscreen shrinks by a foot and gains 60 lbs. They will sit and watch FootBall or Snooker with oval balls (onscreen and not between their legs lol). Im over that now though. Just.

[Cospefogo]

QUOTE(Likklebaer @ Nov 16 2009, 06:40 AM)

The examples of R-Type and Super GnG sprites on the SNES are interesting because it seems the game designers actually made the sprites smaller so that they would look correct when stretched to 4:3.
So for some games, running a screen size of 512x448 is actually giving you distorted graphics since they were designed to be shown stretched to a 4:3 display.

Hey hey, nice article!

Did you guys know that we ALMOST have a perfect solution for our pixel perfect world to eliminate the black bars in emulators like NES, SNES and few others? But unfortunalely the feature is on a inverse fashion - natively on Xbox, and nothing can change it.

It is the 10x11 pixel aspect ratio!

On it natural shape, it takes the full image and transform its pixel aspect size from SQUARE to RECTANGLE, where the pixels became smaller on width, shorter on width. The function shrinks a bit the image horizontally. Then I asked Mr. MadMab about this feature - Is it a native function that belongs to the XDK development kit? YES. It belongs (sorry for my lack of technical info) to the Xbox's native "kernel". It is on its depth.

IF WE COULD INVERT the 10x11 function, the holy grail could be ours!!! We could FORCE a 512x448 screen to be stretched to the FULL 640 screen, on the HARDWARE, with no distortion on the graphics, just like the real NES or SNES consoles do.

But... Sadly there is no way to transform the 10x11 function into a 11x10 function. At least it was what Mr. MadMab said. Sad but true...

Best regards,
Cospefogo.

QUOTE(cbagy @ Nov 16 2009, 07:43 PM)

(...) Havent heard of any old school TV's available at the normal price that would display 320x240 / 320x224. It was good enough back in the day, in fact we "all" played that way ! Its only now that we have good emulators linked to our TV's that we have a method of re-sizing. (...)

Cbagy,

I don't know if I got your point about the CRT TVs, but when I say that the arcade game is 320x240 or 320x224, I mean the 640x480 and the 640x448 on the Xbox language.

Every oldskool/classic title on the Xbox has its resolution doubled, and this the very dangerous point of it all... when people don't make the double-ing thing correctly, they destroy the aspect ratio.

BUT, if they use bilinear - never mind --- everything is perfect, they can't see the problems, they will live a happier life... although they screens will be a bit blurry. If people turn off the bilinear and their flicker filters, they will have screen tearing and a of of annoying artifacts on the game screen.

Well that's it.
Just to clear to everybody that you should multiply by 2 the screensizes mentioned on my tip earlier on this topic!

Best regards, pal!
Cheers,
Cospefogo.

[Likklebaer]

QUOTE(kenshiro @ Nov 17 2009, 12:33 AM)

My english is getting worst and worst. I readed this sentence at least 15 times and still not completly understand it. Thanks to explain it to me lol

My english is perfect and I rarely get any of what ressurectionx is ranting on about. Sometimes I think him and BP are having some sort of incoherent rambling post contest.  

QUOTE(Cospefogo @ Nov 17 2009, 01:05 AM)

IF WE COULD INVERT the 10x11 function, the holy grail could be ours!!! We could FORCE a 512x448 screen to be stretched to the FULL 640 screen, on the HARDWARE, with no distortion on the graphics, just like the real NES or SNES consoles do.

But... Sadly there is no way to transform the 10x11 function into a 11x10 function. At least it was what Mr. MadMab said. Sad but true...

Now that would be cool if only it were possible. But if you actually check out how a real console displays on a CRT TV the horizontal width is not even close to 640. On most systems it seems to be around the 584 mark give or take a few pixels. I wish we could get a list going where people who own original systems could post the screen sizes that most closely match the original on their TV.

And still to anyone who is saying bilinear filtering is blurry I say post some screens of pixel-perfect settings next to bilinear settings with Simple2x and flicker at 0. I'd be very surprised if there was any noticeable difference in sharpness or clarity.

[FrankMorris]

QUOTE(Likklebaer @ Nov 17 2009, 01:42 AM)

And still to anyone who is saying bilinear filtering is blurry I say post some screens of pixel-perfect settings next to bilinear settings with Simple2x and flicker at 0. I'd be very surprised if there was any noticeable difference in sharpness or clarity.

I don't know if it's noticeable on SDTV, but even those settings cause little amount of blur.

Pics were taken from Nokia 5800
Take a look at the Mario and you should see the difference.

Pic 1
Hardware Filter: Bilinear Filtering
Software Filter: Simple 2x
Flicker Filter: 0
Gamescreen: 768 x 672 (256x224 * 3 = 768 x 672)

Pic 2
Hardware Filter: Point Filtering
Software Filter: None
Flicker Filter: 0
Gamescreen: 768 x 672 (256x224 * 3 = 768 x 672)

[FrankMorris]

...Moving the discussion to Genesis/Mega Drive (just cos it isn't discussed yet )

Have you guys aware, that some Genesis games use 256x224 instead of 320x224?
Even the "official test rom" Toys is 256x224. Just like its SNES brother.

Left = SNES
Right = Genesis



Just for heads up.

[cbagy]

Yes theres quite a few Frank. I noticed when i was resampling some screenshots i had taken.

[cbagy]

Wow, glad you pointed that out, i thought i was going nuts !
Just couldn't work it out. Now it all makes sense.

[ressurectionx]

QUOTE(Likklebaer @ Nov 16 2009, 05:42 PM)

My english is perfect and I rarely get any of what ressurectionx is ranting on about. Sometimes I think him and BP are having some sort of incoherent rambling post contest.  

Ha... Methinks you need some reading lessons little girl.  I'm actually an award winning writer in "real" life.  Perhaps the excessive drinking I do while working on this project is muddling some of what I have to say here though, so I'll give you that.

I do find it funny how people who seem to have a problem with me are the only ones who ever seem to have a problem figuring out what I'm trying to say.





Anyways... What I meant Ken, should be easily decipherable from the rest of the post.  

We will continue to do things our way, and shame on you for being a coder and coming down on us for our decisions.  

Personally, I'd prefer it if both you and BP stopped posting at this site if you have nothing positive to say.  There's plenty of hate and negativity to go around on the other boards, which is why I choose to spend a majority of my time here.


Regards,
~Rx

[Likklebaer]

QUOTE(FrankMorris @ Nov 17 2009, 03:12 AM)

I don't know if it's noticeable on SDTV, but even those settings cause little amount of blur.

Pics were taken from Nokia 5800
Take a look at the Mario and you should see the difference.

Pic 1
Hardware Filter: Bilinear Filtering
Software Filter: Simple 2x
Flicker Filter: 0
Gamescreen: 768 x 672 (256x224 * 3 = 768 x 672)

Pic 2
Hardware Filter: Point Filtering
Software Filter: None
Flicker Filter: 0
Gamescreen: 768 x 672 (256x224 * 3 = 768 x 672)

Ok there is a visible difference from that distance. Therefore I will concede that point filtering is clearer for people that like to play with their face pressed up to the screen   . But no seriously, thanks for the pics I honestly can see no difference on my TV but it's good to know there is one.

As for the Genesis, I'm afraid the pixel-perfect settings for this system are even more unforgivable than the SNES. Although you get black bars on the SNES at least you can see the whole image. The horizontal pixel-perfect setting for Genesis is 640 which is way larger than the overscan on most TVs, meaning that substantial portions of the game screen are cropped off on either side. Again my Megadrive would have been on its way back to the shop if the original console had done this. I'm not sure if the 10x11 setting fixes this at all but surely if you use that then you're back to circles that are not perfectly circular.  

[Cospefogo]

Hey guys...
I just made some tests in a minute ago. Listen:

First, why someone could use BILINEAR? It is just to "mask and hide" the aspect ratio distortions, and it also can be used on the same fashion as a soft flicker filter, because it is not too blurry as the flicker filter feature.

To make the bilinear take the real effect, you should use on NES:
Hardware Filter: Bilinear Filtering
Software Filter: NONE
Game size... ANY! stretched, adjusted to any given size, it does not matter.

To avoid the blur, you should use:
Hardware Filter: Point Filtering
Software Filter: Simple 2X
Flicker Filter: 0
Game size: 512x448 on a CRT TV.

I repeated the Frank Morris procedure here on my SDTV and alas - I also can't notice the blur. To make the bilinear take effect you should change to software filter none. Try it, Frank! Then you will see a real blurry bilinear in action! It is impossible to not see the blur when we try my above suggestions, at least on a CRT TV running 480i through original MS component cables.

Frank's pictures are almost identical, indeed.
Cospefogo.

PS. Forgot to mention earlier, the 10x11 pixel aspect ratio mode is the same as 720x480 mode. A trick I used to fool my eyes and to crop out the NES black bars was the following (always on a CRT TV thru component 480i):

- Change the screen size to 640x448, but it will generate overscan on right and left
- Turn ON the 10x11 feature...
- Tá-dá! The screen will fit perfectly with no black bars, but unfortunately the pixel aspect ratio is not 100% correct. I was able to use this config for a long time, but when you make the screen scroll, if you pay attention, carefully, you will see there is something wrong.

[BritneysPAIRS]

All I say is run all the developers out of town we dont need those kinds around here...

yeah im looking at you ken.... run you little bstrd

[cbagy]

I backtracked and read the earlier posts, i think you chaps "may" have your wires crossed here.
Something may have gone astray in translation me-thinks ?
Not that its any of my business.

[ressurectionx]

QUOTE(kenshiro @ Nov 16 2009, 03:40 PM)

You quoted me saying:

What is happening in this and many other threads is the exact reason why I don't want the Madmab Edition emulators released to the public.

Your reply:

Come on! That's stupid!

Actually... Madmab has my back on this one 100%.  Our experience at SX pretty much solidified this desire.  Also, I'm glad you're friends with Gilles too.  He's a great guy and a brilliant artist, as well as his girl who taught him everything.  I believe he's on board with not releasing these things until they are ready too.  Why put out a half finished product that a hundred idiots who aren't going to lift a finger to help us are going to bitch about what still doesn't work?


Which brings us to.....

QUOTE

You quoted me as saying:

so why rush it just to have 100 new people come in here and tell us how we SHOULD be doing things.

And your reply:
 
You gonna have this problem in anyplace. Emulation scene is one of favorite place for the mister "i know everything", "i want this", "your work is shit", "my work is the best of the world", "i've the biggest d***".
Take Xbox emulation scene, it is the same problem X 10. Well whatever... What i mean is if you wanna live in peace you're actually in one of the worst place of the world lol. Just do what you love that's the most important but you already know that, isn't it?

I agree with some of that, but basically I was telling you that we don't have to deal with 95% of the BS that other coders and tinkerers have had to put up with because most of this work hasn't gone public, and it won't until it's ready.

I don't know how our own conversations have devolved to this, but all I was asking was that if you're going to insult the decisions me or anyone on my team makes that you take those insults to another forum and leave them out of here.  

Maybe I misread what you said, but that is what you said.  My apologies for pissing you off if you didn't mean this stuff as it was read.  Conversely, don't let the screen door hit you on the ass on the way out if that was how you meant them.

Regards,
~Rx


And BTW... with posts like the one below yours, I'm quickly changing the tune I've had towards some eccentricities we see rear their ugly head in here.  I've seriously had enough of this crap now.

Go away.  You know who I'm talking to.

[Cospefogo]

WHY YOU PEOPLE KEEP BRAWLING HERE?
Please STOP.

Let's dicuss the original topic subject.
Game screen sizes!
Thank you VERY MUCH for your attention, understanding, collaboration and faith in a new world free of war.

You may say I am a dreamer, but I am not the only one.
Best regards,
Cospefogo.