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[BenJeremy]

QUOTE (FIREitUP @ Aug 4 2003, 04:54 PM)

ok i want to learn a new computer language but i dont know what, i need somethign that wont bore me to death and isnt TOO difficult to learn.  also, what is the best ebook or program to learn it?  thanks for replying to this guys i know you hate threads like this. -Mike

Most programmers start with BASIC, which is utterly terrible as a "real" language, since it's not a procedural language. Often this leads to Pascal, followed by a real language, C then C++.

Unfortunately, if you were taking college courses, you might be detoured into Java, which isn't bad, but it's also not terribly useful outside of the web world. It's cool enough in it's own right, but the term 'acedemic' applies to it in many ways.

Unless you are really into computers, avoid Forth and assembler, but those are very useful disciplines for those wishing to get 'close to the metal' - Forth is rarely used, but will give you interesting insights. Assembler is almost never used to write entire code modules any more.

[gamingguru]

Hey, what do you have againt JAVA.It can do everything that anyother language can do, even though some things are a little harder to do in jave than other languages, Gui design is quite easy.

I personally prefer java over c++

[BenJeremy]

QUOTE (gamingguru @ Aug 4 2003, 05:55 PM)

Hey, what do you have againt JAVA.It can do everything that anyother language can do, even though some things are a little harder to do in jave than other languages, Gui design is quite easy. I personally prefer java over c++

That's all fine and well, but it's not a practical language for the real world.

...but what do I know? I've only been programming for over 20 years, and making money doing this since 1983, working with everything from mainframes to PIC chips. I've worked on CGI apps (web databases), image processing, utilities.... just about everything under the sun.

When I tell you Java is not practical, I say so with a bit of experience. As I said, it's a spiffy little language, and certainly had a lot of promise, but it hasn't been fulfilled. Java apps are far more laggy than C++ (which has seen optimizations in speed an order of magnitude over Java in the same period of time). I'm a professional, and I work in a rather LARGE firm (one of the world leaders in the IT industry), with a very good team of software engineers, and to a man, they question the push in academia to teach Java to the many interns we deal with.

How many apps on your PC run on Java? On my own system, I can count MAYBE 3. The vast majority are written using C/C++, followed by VB. How much of Linux is written in Java? Not a single line of the Kernel or drivers. How many VCRs, PDAs, Console Games, Engine controllers, industrial controls, letter sorters, hand scanners, ...and so on... are written using Java?

It never lived up to the promise of many pundits. It couldn't deliver the efficency required in the packages that were affordable. Java processors? I don't even think I've ever seen one spec'd for automotive usage, let alone industrial NEMA classifications.

Now, as a language to play with... Java is fine, but even Pascal (and it's close brethren Modula and Delphi) is used in more "real" systems and apps than Java. Java programming will not impress a single person on a resume, if they know software engineering, at least. It might have been a good tickmark 5 years ago, but time and practicality has passed it by.

[gamingguru]

Yes it does run a lot slower then C++.




I don't know, but can you make cell phone app with c++?

[BenJeremy]

QUOTE (gamingguru @ Aug 4 2003, 06:23 PM)

Yes it does run a lot slower then C++. I don't know, but can you make cell phone app with c++?

Depends on the developer's kit available.

Yes, cell phones have grabbed onto the Java train, but what do you think the OS in that phone is built with? As they become more complex, with color and full blown systems like the Windows CE variant used in many, C/C++ is still the language of choice.

[gamingguru]

Ok, you win c++ reigns supream....for now.
I'm still hoping that when I finish high school that Java will provide me with a nice job somewhere.

[BenJeremy]

QUOTE (gamingguru @ Aug 4 2003, 06:29 PM)

Ok, you win c++ reigns supream....for now. I'm still hoping that when I finish high school that Java will provide me with a nice job somewhere.

It might, in the web page sector, but keep in mind, every snot-nosed CS major is coming out with 4 years worth of Java... and a degree to back it up.

They are a dime a dozen, just like BASIC programmers back in my college days, only there are far fewer applications to write in JAva than there ever were in BASIC.

The problem will be differentiating what you bring to the table versus the other 20 applicants, if the company doesn't, instead, decide to use offshore resources and hire 5 Indians or Phillipinos or 2 Irish developers for what he could pay an entry-level guy for something common like Java.

Hedging your bets in that environment means being very proficient at a number of languages and technologies. Do you know SOAP? COM+? DirectX? SQL? Understand software development processes? UML? Design methodologies? Most of these can be easily book-learned and trained on your PC.... and being familiar enough to navigate your way through an interview without sounding like you are talking out of your ass will be the thing that lands you a good job.

[gamingguru]

Maby I should clarify, I don't quite know java yet.
I mean  I know a little, but a can't sit down and make a hole freaking program by myself.

Also I plan to go to a four year college.

And as for the sql and stuff, I don't know those.

[BenJeremy]

QUOTE (gamingguru @ Aug 4 2003, 06:43 PM)

Maby I should clarify, I don't quite know java yet. I mean  I know a little, but a can't sit down and make a hole freaking program by myself. Also I plan to go to a four year college. And as for the sql and stuff, I don't know those.

Well, with Java, you'll probably be doing SQL Database queries... that's got it's own form of language, even.

Languages are always "religious" topics. Everyone thinks the language they've mastered is the best. I've mastered more than a few... I just offer my advice.    

You can't go wrong with C/C++, but for starters, try BASIC or Pascal.

[BenJeremy]

QUOTE (FIREitUP @ Aug 4 2003, 06:56 PM)

QUOTE (BenJeremy @ Aug 4 2003, 06:48 PM) QUOTE (gamingguru @ Aug 4 2003, 06:43 PM) Maby I should clarify, I don't quite know java yet. I mean  I know a little, but a can't sit down and make a hole freaking program by myself. Also I plan to go to a four year college. And as for the sql and stuff, I don't know those. Well, with Java, you'll probably be doing SQL Database queries... that's got it's own form of language, even. Languages are always "religious" topics. Everyone thinks the language they've mastered is the best. I've mastered more than a few... I just offer my advice.     You can't go wrong with C/C++, but for starters, try BASIC or Pascal. so visual basic or pascal? i think im leaning towards VB, what do you think?

VB is easy enough to get into, and there are a ton of resources.... plus you'll immediately be making useful applications, which is a plus if your attention span is challenged by the attention span of a fly.

[The unProfessional]

Looks like i may've missed the boat on throwing in my 2 cents.  Ben's take on the whole thing is just fine.  I just wanted to re-iterate that Java is designed to be a portable programming platform.  Basically, a virtual machine is used to run java code.  This is an extra layer that basically translates compiled java binaries into machine code native to the system it's running on, thus far slower than compiled C++, as it's compiled into native machine code.

C/C++ is definitely the most widely used, and most versatile language.  it will remain to be the most used for professional applications.  It's taught in all related curriculums, and possesses a great deal of power.  I'll also say, as much as I dislike the inherent lack of control in visual basic, it's great for rapid development of small applications.  If there is a "tool" you need, or a simple app just to get something done, VB, or C#/VB.NET will work great for you.

But, in the enterprise world, you'll get nowhere w/o C++.  But, you can get anywhere w/o Java.  Even in the web world, it has increasingly limited application.  For instancce, Flash has native socket support.  I recently ported my web-based chat client from java over to flash, and I'm quite glad I did.  Also, M$ stopped support java, which sucks, but it's reality... and that does have a large effect on how easy it is for the n00b with the new PC to run java apps. (pain in the ass, java.sun.com)

Edit: Also, VB/C#.net is great for database-driven apps... ADO.Net is a huge improvement over standard ADO with VB6.  Database apps in C/C++ are considerably nastier

[LinksAwakening]

CODE

#include #include int main() {    int a;    int b;    int answer;    char temp[3];    char temp2[3];    char endding[1];    printf("Enter A Number:n");    gets(temp);    a=atoi(temp);    printf("Enter A Second Number:n");    gets(temp2);    b=atoi(temp2);    printf("You chose the numbers: %i and %in",a,b);    answer=a+b;    printf("The sum of %i and %i is %in",a,b,answer);    if (a>b)    {  printf("Your first number was bigger than your second numbern");      }        else if (a==b)    {  printf("Your numbers were equaln");      }    else    {  printf("Your second number was bigger than your firstn");      }    printf("Press Enter to end program...n");    gets(endding);    return 0; }

I wrote this from my understanding of C++ (meaning not by looking back and forth from a guide every 2 seconds), and I kind of improvised at the end to get it to run the way I wanted...

I will more than likely choose to not try to cram in BASIC, when I can just learn C++, and I'm picking up some C++ books at Borders soon, so I can learn more C++...

[BenJeremy]

but as you get more into it, you'll start seeing the value of using object to encapsulate functionality, and later for the code reusability - particularly with larger apps.

The nice thing about the C/C++ track is that it's fairly smooth transition from beginner to pro.

[Iriez]

QUOTE (LinksAwakening @ Aug 4 2003, 06:14 PM)

I've recently decided to get into C++ programming (with my Visual C++ 6 Introductory Edition), and I have a great Beginner's understanding of it...

Im in the same boat with you ; )

I decided to skip the VB and go straight to c++. I've played with TCL for a while, so im not a complete moran.

Ive been using these tutorials here to teach myself...

http://www.cprogramm...m/tutorial.html

Check em out, perhaps it could be of some use.

[LinksAwakening]

QUOTE (Iriez @ Aug 5 2003, 02:47 AM)

QUOTE (LinksAwakening @ Aug 4 2003, 06:14 PM) I've recently decided to get into C++ programming (with my Visual C++ 6 Introductory Edition), and I have a great Beginner's understanding of it... Im in the same boat with you ; ) I decided to skip the VB and go straight to c++. I've played with TCL for a while, so im not a complete moran. Ive been using these tutorials here to teach myself... http://www.cprogramm...m/tutorial.html Check em out, perhaps it could be of some use.

Sweet... That looks like an awesome site, and I'll check it out a little more in a few minutes...

I was looking on Borders' website for C++ Programming books, and I found some good ones, and THIS ONE seems to be the best for my needs, and I hope to pick up a copy soon...

I also find it's helpful to look at open-source applications, and try to see how they are creating what they want (with functions and so-forth)...

I can't wait to learn more... and it's good to know I have many options to turn to...