Topic: Question Regarding Live (Read 358 times)

remedee · « **on:** August 21, 2004, 08:56:00 PM »

I'm aware similar questions have been asked and the standard response is "NO"... but during my research, I havent found an answer that really satisfied my curiosity, so here goes.

I'm not a programmer, so I wouldn't know where to begin looking, but if the dashboards can be upgraded by M$ and still connect to the Live servers properly, it seems logical (to me at least) that the connection information would lie somewhere in those dashboard files, rather than the bios/eeprom. With that in mind, does it not seem theoretically possible to alter the code, not to be able to connect to Live itself, but to point to another ip/domain?

I know Live checks the eeprom info etc. when you connect, which may cause other issues in designing the server required to run those games, but without having a way to point a Live enabled game to another location, is there any way to know if those checks would even be required?

KAI and XBConnect are great for their respective purposes, but I think we can all imagine the possibilities of a PC based Live server. I know there would be pros and cons, as with any mod/exploit, especially in an infancy stage, but I distinctly recall a time when "NO" was the standard response to a question like: "Is there any way to run homebrew/backups without a modchip?"

Now it seems with UDE1/2 exploits, and all of the amazing advances with PBL/NKPatcher, we now all have the ability to run our boxes with 99.9% of the same functionality as those with a chipped box, (darn, I can't change my flubber...) and in some cases more options (how many bioses can your HD hold compared to a chip?). A buddy of mine has a chipped box with no on/off switch, I can go Live, he can't. Sorry bout his luck...

Guess I just feel a little bit like this forum has become inundated with a ton of tutorials on how to get the exploits working rather than new and exciting stuff to tinker with. This is by no means a negative statement as quality information is crucial and the current expliots are nothing short of genius. Just seems there isnt much more exploiting to do in order to get unsigned code to run (with the exception of PAL boxes, which there is a workaround for).

So maybe this'll cause a spark in some folks with the know-how to toss us groundlings a new bone, or just a spark that results in me getting flamed for such a rant. In either case, I apologize. This was supposed to be like 3 lines long, not a novel.

Edit = Spelling

This post has been edited by remedee: Aug 22 2004, 04:00 AM

krayzie · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2004, 02:56:00 AM »

*edit* sorry misread

This post has been edited by krayzie: Aug 22 2004, 09:58 AM

zaphur · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2004, 02:40:00 AM »

Yeah it would be good to have a Live server on another computer. You could play all your backups that support live and not just system link for XBConnect/Xlink Kai.

My idea was to create an interceptor program that would let you connect to the M$ live servers but when it sends the BIOS info to M$ the interceptor program running on the PC changes it to the original so M$ is tricked. The only problem is all of the info sent out might be encrypted.

I would love to play Driv3r on a non M$ Xbox Live. Its expensive to go on live.

SargeZT · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2004, 02:43:00 AM »

Well, it's a good idea, except for the fact that the IP's are probably in the XBE's, and changing them would kind of negate the entire purpose of this discussion. However, I'm open to the possibility that there is a setting for the Live Addresses somewhere, dunno though.

-Sarge

SargeZT · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2004, 02:45:00 AM »

Also, the chances of Reverse Engineering a Live! server to work as you suggest would be tedious, to put it VERY lightly. Some of you might bring up the PSO Gamecube example, for running code. The same could probably be done with live if we could change the IP's. But, creating a SERVER to coordinate XBox's is not something you guys should expect.

OliG · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2004, 04:35:00 AM »

If it weren't for pedrospad theorising about the update.xbe we wouldn't have UDE/UDE2. Nice to hear people doing the same even if it is about Live servers. In order to create our own vers of Live, it would be handy to get our hands on a LIVE server. I doubt some how that we'll get one from toysRus though.

remedee · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2004, 09:54:00 AM »

Aside from actually having my question answered as to why this wouldn't work at all, that was the idea of the post. To maybe take another look at the situation and find out why it couldn't be done, as opposed to just saying "no, its just not possible".

I completely understand the fact that the server itself would be an entirely different issue, however, if editing the xbe turns out to be something as simple as an address change (which I doubt), then all the work would turn to developing a server to handle the traffic.

There may be a handful of very talented people here who can manipulate the executable files handled by the xbox, but there are a lot more people out there familiar with coding programs for windows/linux that would ultimately be the server-side coding. Perhaps I'm just a dreamer, but something tells me this not only could work, but should. Ultimately it boils down to data sent, received and translated right? If you were a legitimate developer for M$ and using the XDK, there would have to be SOME way to code a game to enable Live right?

ToysRUs may not have a Live server on hand, but something tells me if this topic really begins to generate interest, we may have one come the holiday season.... Halo2 anyone?

Flame2k · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2004, 10:42:00 AM »

interesting, if we could get hold of the technology this scene can do whatever ms can do and 10x better and minus attempts at world domination

i beleive it could be done....

remedee · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2004, 11:31:00 AM »

Ok, rather than just suggesting others undertake this quest, I've decided to try and get my hands a little dirty. I've managed to acquire a Dev Kit, so with no knowledge whatsoever, I figure it can't hurt to take a look... I have my inspiration though. Any of you guys remember a post by Tomilius titled something like:

"PBL should be changed"
(shouldn't it)

That post resulted in PBL Lite, PBL-Metoo and FBL, all of which significantly advanced softmodding in general and allowed 5530+ users some new goodies.

I have no idea whether I'll even be able to make sense of what I'll be looking at when I open up the Dev Kit, but I'm curious about this and sitting on my hands and hoping others can figure it out simply isn't going to do. So with nothing more than an idea, Im off to seek the "impossible"...

eh. · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2004, 11:24:00 AM »

remedee · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2004, 12:12:00 PM »

After reading that, I wonder if the AS.XBOXLIVE.COM server may be something like "Authentication Server" since it seems to be the first connection it makes. And the line

"After this, the Xbox makes another DNS inquiry, sends another Kerberos Request, and gets another Kerberos reply. These have been omitted."

makes me wonder just what has been omitted. Maybe specs on his personal xbox? But back to my inital comment about running our own servers, we don't yet know if those checks would even be necessary. If they could be avoided, I could certainly deal with not having to transmit the serial etc. of every one of my friends' boxes that connects to my server. But if if does in fact need to be implemented, that info could be very useful in the future.

Angerwound · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2004, 12:12:00 PM »

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Making Our Own Live Servers"
Isn't this what xbconnect and xlink have accomplished already?
As for creating your own, I doubt anyone knows the exact calls to the live servers during games; you would have to emulate each and everyone.

remedee · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2004, 12:57:00 PM »

Angerwound, xlink and xbconnect allow system link enabled games, which is great, but what I was considering is the ability to re-route the actual Live connection. Granted, the server may be a greater feat than we can understand at the moment, but until we know if we can make the system connect where we say, rather than where M$ says, we won't know exactly what we're up against.

The idea was to determine if it "could" be done, and if not, why? From what I've been reading up on, to develop a live enabled game, you must use certain strings. Knowing what strings need to be SENT at least gives an idea as to what the server is expecting to see. The response to those requests is another issue.

It does appear that there is a standard communications language with the server, which leads me to believe the actual game interaction would be partially handled by the server, but primarily handled by the game itself, which all parties would need to have in order to play anyways. I'm going to keep reading up, and once I have some kind of grasp on the situation, maybe I can talk some of the guys from xlink or xbconnect to take a peek.

Angerwound · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2004, 02:55:00 PM »

Okay, I have a better understand now of what you meant.
Reading XDK docs is an excellant idea at the moment to find out exactly how the servers operate. I also suggest talking to the xlink/xbconnect guys for they would have a better understanding of how multiplayer works and possible a bit about the live servers. You may ask a few questions in the Live forum, their might be a few guys in there with some technical knowledge about live.

This post has been edited by Angerwound: Aug 22 2004, 09:56 PM

SargeZT · « **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2004, 03:41:00 PM »

Well, just a thought. Instead of editing the XBE's themselves, perhaps set up a DNS server on a computer. It Queries AS.XBOXLIVE.COM, set the DNS server to redirect that to the local host. Sends authentication to that address, waits for a verification from the Authentication Server. However, that's only for a few games (To the best of my understanding.). Most of the live traffic goes through TGS (The Game Server? Dunno), which uses the same authentication protocol.

What does this mean? Very little. Perhaps send a malformed packet to the XBox in the authentication, cause it to run some unsigned code. Induce a buffer overflow, I have no idea. Either way, this could lead to something good in the exploit world.

Author Topic: Question Regarding Live (Read 358 times)