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[chimpanzee]

QUOTE (dailey @ May 24 2004, 08:15 AM)

... or you could have one menu to select all those. Select linux and it loads, copy data from a disk to a folder on your hdd it does it. run a game? sure. Ftp? got it. whats not there can be made.

Um, I must have some misunderstanding of XOS then. As an alternative OS, it can run its own applications without reboot but once say I choose to do something that is orginal intended fo Xbox(playing games), XOS would be out of the picture I believe. I would need a reboot to have it kick in again.

So the only convenience I can see is that instead of booting into linux(that may take some seconds), I load some XOS applications(that may also take some seconds, may be a bit shorter) to do the auxiliary stuff(ftp etc.). The only advantage I see is XOS being the first being loaded don't have to boot into again to run its own applications. May be a few seconds benefit. Once I need to venture out to other things that requires 'BIOS', it lose control of the machine.

This is very different from a VM style OS which can just slice the machine and load Xbox BIOS so I can run games, press a button of the controller and load cromwell to load linux at the same time. Now if that can be done, it would be something special. In fact, there is a project that happens to called 'Xen' that is able to do it.

[chimpanzee]

QUOTE (dailey @ May 24 2004, 08:15 AM)

I mean given the options between the old ways of doing things like installing linux/apps/boises and the new way of doing things, which way is a newbie gonna go? I'm not a newbie and I know how to do pretty much everything with an xbox and I am going to prefer going with XOS. You guys like the old ways then thats your prerogative.

I prefer the new way which in fact is the first question I asked on this forum, using Xenium to load different BIOS and use readily available applications. Xbox BIOS for games, cromwell/linux for Tivo like stuff, hacked BIOS for homebrew.

So all I need is just a loader with a configurable interface(controlled by the joystick or IR), the auxillary applications like ftp, bios flashing etc. is nice but that IMO is the limit. Anything beyond that would take way too much effort and I very doubt is viable.

As I have said before, nothing needs to be installed, linux can run happily from the CD/DVD, same goes for backup games on DVD by hacked BIOS I believe.

[Xbox-Gear]

QUOTE

Where's the true 4th gen features like FTP, HTTP flashing, Prog Scan OS support, etc?

*Built-in FTP server, without relying on launching a second app or OS   
*Full client/server SMB (Windows Networking) support, integrated directly with the file system drivers, allowing you to copy files Xbox->pc and pc->Xbox, from either XOS or your PC – do you understand ? This is more advanced then webflashing by FAR , for many of you who have completely been mesmerized, this means that if you have bios files on your pc , you simply navigate your pc’s network shares , pick the bios file and flash it , same principle with the pen drive support. Webflashing is by far an inferior method and just lets you upload a bios file from a web browser on a pc to xbox.. Samba is a truly 4th generation concept , it has surprassed the method of webflashing and took it up several considerable steps. Now we can even use it to copy files to the xbox from a pc , it’s a whole windows networking system for your box , explain to me how this isn’t 4th generation and how http flashing is ? you have already been shown up for your naivety by not even READING the full feature list …

The new os from OzXodus , is a completely dedicated operated system , legal might I say , it is not based on some modified MS bios code…

To you , I would suggest you actually read the information of which is presented to you and learn the meaning of implicature (reading between the lines).

QUOTE

It's still vaporware. There is still no commited release date. It's going to beta in a few days, so who knows when/if we'll get a release version.

It’s still vaporware ? Not at all , OzXodus hit the scene in emphatic style with the release of the Xenium , they haven’t let anyone down. The reason for delays is to ensure the final product is free of as many defects as possible and gives you the best possible end experience. Xenium OS V2 , will be with us any day now , I admit ‘soon’ can be misleading and frustrating , it’s better this way then releasing several mediocore os’s a month with little improved or added. Is a few days really going to hurt ? One thing you can be sure of , the ozxodus team will always be constantly working hard and diligently.

QUOTE

to be honest the first thing that popped into my mind was "gee the SmartXX people just won the 1.6 race and posted a brief message and a newly available OS" then no less than 2 news posts later the Xenium people post news that's probably larger in bytes than the XOS2 and still nothing tangable.

This is a common technique used by all modchip teams , why did Xecuter release ‘their’ specs list in December ? And a revised one , conveniently a little time after the Xenium OS2 feature list… Take a look at the SmartXX os releases “- Some small things, users wrote to our whishlist”  , this is incredibly ambiguous , why not just tell us the small things… ? If you go everything with a fine toothcomb you will see there is consistent patterns emerging  , noticeably Xecuter posts smack on bang of OzXodus.

QUOTE

Find me someone thats willing to do that using the XOS as a platform, no one ! They rather do it via cromwell/linux. IF your gonna put that much work into something, might as well make it so everone can use it.

With all due respect , I am sure there will be people willing to do such things using the XOS platform in the future ,  you do not speak for everyone .. , you and heinrich are clearly against OzXodus and very pessimistic , if you can’t handle their useful developments as you are shacked up with other teams , work with them and challenge ozx with your work , rather then your mouth… honestly , why do you need to play it all down with regards to ozx  ?

QUOTE

So what is cromwell if not a bios? Illegal/legal, who cares.

Cromwell is limited for starters. People will care if the X3 bios turns out to be illegal , retailers will carry the risk of selling copyrighted code with every mod they sell..

Anyone who wants to debate this, please don’t bother. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, these ‘opinions’ are really by the majority unjustified and triggered by alterior motives… Ozxodus , are the innovators of the 4th gen modchip – thus being an onboard operating system , closely followed by smartxx , and perhaps Xecuter3 IF and WHEN it is actually out. Why is an unreleased product still getting compared to the likes of the xenium , X3 is vaporware , you want to look at people who have been ‘stringing’ along the scene , look no further than them , Xecuter 3 was due for release , let me think , 2 months ago , no 4 actually a whole year ago. The reason for this delay is because OzXodus have made them go back to the drawing board on a number of occasions , making them the true innovators of the 4th generation. Credit given to where credit is due, OzXodus certainly deserve it.

It's pretty pathetic when you think about it , all OzXodus are doing are adding new features to their mod and people are actually Whining and complaining about them... (biased and people who don't read information comprehensively).

[ViRAL]

what and xecuter hasn't? don't forget, they have the bios that is prob on 90% of modded xboxes, and the chip(X2) which i think most modded xboxes also have.

unfortunatly 48 hours has past and no vid's or beta testers reports yet....i hope this doesn't turn into 3 months again....i want a release on May 28(my 14th b'day!)

[Josh Adams]

x2 bioses are a bios that does what? plays copied games (oh sorry backups).

so does evox actually.

I know its a vital ingredient in the scene but you can't tell me that modifying a kernel from leaked source code is in the same league as writing an OS from the ground up. I'm not trying to put down xecuter's contribution but simply saying that I think that ozxodus has the guys with the most talent.

It is to be expected though, look who is in the team. It is the combination of OzXChip and Xodus afterall, two teams that have innovated in the scene for the entire time they have been around.

[ncaissie]

QUOTE (greengiant @ May 24 2004, 07:06 AM)

greengiant Notes so you ppl get it straight: -You wont find XBMC redoing their app just so it will run as a legal app on XOS only. Whats the point of having the XOS modify the default dash path in a ms bios to boot a diff xbe, when you can just use a new das (evox, ava, nexgen) and load up whatever xbe you want XBMC would not be made for only xecuter, or smartxx, or xenium (in theory) because that cuts out to much of the user base, the user base that will benefit from the app. The only apps you will truly need to dev directly for the XOS would be things that use the xen itself, like the spi port or bank stuff, or possibly ftp/web/telnet sort of stuff.. but tools and apps will not be practical. What if Sony decided to make their line of DVD Videos only work on Sony DVD Players, well thats pretty stupid as theyr loosing out on a major area of the market. But if they made a DVD that would allow sony dvd playrs to play mp3's then oviously you make it only for the sony dvd player.

You have no clue do you?

Who said XBMC needs to build for the XOS? Xenium dev fans will build a different and maybe better one. (Legal one)

the point of the XOS changing the bios XBE is do you won't need a dash!
Build your own menu system in XOS. This would save on boot time.

As a dev and a Xenium Owner I could care less if the scene uses apps I build.
It will be offered free for anyone that wants them, but I will develop for my own needs. (selfish but I will know what I'm getting and have control offer fixes)


and last but not least! Ever heard of the Sony Mini Disc? they didn't make them for every cd Player.

[wiqd]

)  I have this to say:

Someone, I believe it was Dailey, said that people may fault him for being overly passionate about all this. I say, if it weren't for people who were overly passionate about things they believed in, we wouldn't have MANY of the innovations found in just about every aspect of our lives today. People sit down and TRULY want something, so they whack away at it for god knows how long until they get it. Some people forfeit their social / family lives to accomplish exactly what it is they want. OzXodus seems to be pretty passionate about doing things different, trying new things. Everyone fails, there's no other way to learn. Will XOS succeed (I'm not just talking 2.0 either)? Only if people are truly overly passionate about MAKING it succeed. They gave the community something to nurture, something to help grow. They didn't say "hey, here you go, this will do EVERYTHING you ever hoped for with absolutely no work from anyone else, ever." Sure they promised things that haven't been released yet. Sure they use a lot of big words and funny phrases (FUCKIT) to explain things. *shrugs*

Someone else made the comment that "A lot of the Xbox linux apps, current dashes, etc... can do the things that the XOS promises to do or give the possibility to do." Mmmk, seems like if people in history thought that we should just walk instead of using cars to get from point A to B, or to continue using boats to cross the oceans instead of planes, or using snail mail instead of creating the internet usage of email to contact people, we'd be in a pretty piss poor efficient world eh? It's not about redoing things that have already been done. It's about doing things that have already been done better, more efficient, AND adding the ability to expand on that to create new things.

*As a side note, anyone remember the BASF commercial that goes something like "At BASF we don't made the *insert product here*, we make the *insert product here* better.*

Granted, if they ONLY tried to reinvent those things that have been released, thats prett shitty as well, but they haven't. They've created a nice way for new things to be done. Ok, its proprietary and aims at a small user base, which could be bad. But it could also be good, if people pick up on it and develop for it. Everything has the chance to be good or bad, it all depends on the people who support it, and of course, the creators (OzXodus) to continue to support it as well.

Meh, I don't like to post much cuz I ramble, but the arguments surrounding the OS lately are just dumb. If you feel betrayed because something wasn't released, then that's up to you and you can vent however you want, but don't short sight everything just because 1 or 2 things that very well COULD be implemented in a short amount of time BECAUSE OF the way the OS now works weren't put in now.

I'm not gonna comment on specific things because this was just meant as a general overview of stuff, there's way too much to be caught up in when dealing with specific arguments here but seriously, remember the last time you knew something, something SO kewl that you just HAD to tell someone, even if someone told you not to?Or the last time you made such a great accomplishment you wanted everyone to know? While a lot of the hype OzXodus puts out is probably for marketing purposes and could be considered propaganda, I'm sure a lil of it is pride in their work and they just wanna say "hey, look what we did" every once and a while.

Wiqd

[chimpanzee]

QUOTE (dailey @ May 24 2004, 09:15 AM)

Dont get me wrong, I like linux but developing applications to be used on an Xbox while going through the linux kernal? One of the ideas I like is actually an older one. people wanted to make their xbox into a TiVo type system and wanted it to be implemented into XBMC. The problem with this idea was that a USB tv tuner card was needed in order to capture the signal, drivers needed to be made for the hardware as well. There were linux drivers available and a system could be set up under linux but after loading the file system and everything there just wasnt enough resources to encode a good bitrate. Before I couldnt see the Xbox being made into a TiVo type unit, but now I can in XOS 2 with it's asynchronous USB support, dll support, LBA48 & multiple hard drive support the sky is the limit.

Linux has proved itself to be able to run from very limited hardware(my old wireless router which is 486 with 4M RAM) to very powerful hardware. So I can't see why it can't be done on Xbox(Celeron 733, 64M). In fact, as I said it is already there(Freevo, the Tivo equivalent). TV tuner/capturing has been done and someone is running in on Xbox/linux too. The base linux kernel with the drivers supporting all the Xbox hardware may take at most 10M RAM. There is still a lot for many things. Beside, for applications like Tivo, it is the CPU that would be the bottleneck and I can't see how Xenium developer can easily beat developers around the world working on optimizing linux.

I just wanted to say it one more time that what you are imagining that may be possible in the future on XOS is arleady here, on linux running on Xbox.

You are right though that once we are not limited by MS software, the sky is the limit.

I am not saying XOS is no good, just that it would be a long long way to go as it starts everything from scratch and the things I have mentioned(compiler, developing environment, what graphic  API system to use etc.) is just way too much thing for a small team to do.

[mcsenerd]

All I'm going to say once again...is that to all those making comments about "supposed" feature lists and such...it's all conjecture unless you've got your hands on something that you'd like to share with other Xenium customers...

[marksu]

QUOTE

I am not saying XOS is no good, just that it would be a long long way to go as it starts everything from scratch and the things I have mentioned(compiler, developing environment, what graphic API system to use etc.) is just way too much thing for a small team to do.

Well it presume the DLL support is not intended in any large scale stuff. It's would be more like some small nice utilities.

They are not trying to invent a other Linux.

[chimpanzee]

QUOTE (wiqd @ May 24 2004, 12:07 PM)

Someone else made the comment that "A lot of the Xbox linux apps, current dashes, etc... can do the things that the XOS promises to do or give the possibility to do." Mmmk, seems like if people in history thought that we should just walk instead of using cars to get from point A to B, or to continue using boats to cross the oceans instead of planes, or using snail mail instead of creating the internet usage of email to contact people, we'd be in a pretty piss poor efficient world eh? It's not about redoing things that have already been done. It's about doing things that have already been done better, more efficient, AND adding the ability to expand on that to create new things.

That is true, except that I can't see why this XOS is in anyway better than linux. Xbox is just a X86 legacy free PC, the linux team has been working on that for over 10 years.  

In what way do you think XOS can do it better ? What VM model will it use ? What file system will it use ?

If its goal is just a simplified OS that is targetted to do the general things like a ftp server, BIOS flashing, or some HDD management of existing Xbox and all in a legal way, I can understand. Anything beyond this kind of things especially involving UI, soon people will find that it is much more complex than they thought. You want it to be efficient, you need to cut features(think DOS, that is the most efficient OS on x86), once you start to make it feature rich, it begins to add loads to the OS.

[chimpanzee]

QUOTE (marksu @ May 24 2004, 01:14 PM)

Well it presume the DLL support is not intended in any large scale stuff. It's would be more like some small nice utilities. They are not trying to invent a other Linux.

well, that is not the impression I got :-)

As I said, it would be a viable option to be a 'clean room' implementation of EVOX, but a general purpose OS that allows people to develop all sorts of application on it(the sky is the limit), I would say wishful thinking.

I believe it would be more DOS like, than linux.

[marksu]

Well i would agree that OS 2.0 will newer be in same level of development as linux.

Still some small apps it is nice to have available straight on the OS 2.0. There is nothing wrong in having new development tools/ways to work on in modding community. It is only a good thing in my opinion.

There is nothing to stop Linux developers to make cromwell bases applications.

[marksu]

[OpusDei]

QUOTE (Josh Adams @ May 24 2004, 10:25 AM)

x2 bioses are a bios that does what? plays copied games (oh sorry backups). so does evox actually. I know its a vital ingredient in the scene but you can't tell me that modifying a kernel from leaked source code is in the same league as writing an OS from the ground up. I'm not trying to put down xecuter's contribution but simply saying that I think that ozxodus has the guys with the most talent. It is to be expected though, look who is in the team. It is the combination of OzXChip and Xodus afterall, two teams that have innovated in the scene for the entire time they have been around.

Unfortunatley this kind of post warrants this kind of reply...

Innovation ?

Oh please....Here is a memory Jog

How about being involved in the first ever Xbox mod
How about the first crack of the v1.1 RC4 key
How about coding most of the hacks you use today - how you can belittle spending many many months developing on original source ??
How about more importantly the first ever LPC hack

You talk about innovation - Xodus came in about a year later - innovation? Adding pogo pins to an already established cheapmod by andy green and making $60 a pop in the process - as you say innovated since they've been here - please

I'm sure this new XOS will be a bright and happy thing for some - but some of you talk like these guys invented the scene or some shit. They even say themselves they are re-inventing it. A huge boast im quite sure will fall flat in the months to come - in the meantime im playing with KAI - which can be used on all mods / bios's and xbox's