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[robdav99]

I have a PAL V1.0 and a x2vga but i had to switch my xbox to ntsc using the enigma region changer or whatever the hell it is called. works perfect now.

there are a few of my PAL games that dont like being played on the wrong region tho namely GTA3 and VC and The Matrix

[EvilWays]

PAL doesn't support the HDTV specifications we have in NTSC-land, so switching it to NTSC is your option.

[Dreamcazman]

There are NO v1.0 PAL progressive Xboxes in existence, none, never will be, never was...

M$ did release the HDAV pack in PAL territories, but later removed them from store shelves as they caused problems with the dashboard.

Maybe future consoles will support PAL progressive @ 576p (I'm hoping anyways) and the picture quality is far better than NTSC progressive @ 480p.

Actually, stuff the enhanced definition modes, I want 720p or 1080i as standard  

The only way you can get pro-scan signals from your PAL Xbox is to change it to NTSC. The few games that don't run in NTSC can usually be patched.

[Dreamcazman]

I never said it didn't work, it worked just fine with games, but caused problems when you went to change video settings under the dashboard when your Xbox is set to PAL.

It keeps asking, DO YOU WANT TO ENABLE 480P, where it should ask, DO YOU WANT TO ENABLE PAL60, or something along those lines.

It was simply a software glitch in the dashboard and I'd say M$ thought it'd be easier to remove the HDAV pack instead of recalling all the Xboxes, which would've cost alot more to do.

It's also true that at the time there wasn't a PAL progressive standard which is why it wasn't implimented.

[Dreamcazman]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I tend to expect people know and not go into too much detail...

The HDAV pack works fine with PAL Xbox's in INTERLACED only, not PROGRESSIVE or HD. Which is why you would like to at least have PAL60 instead of only PAL50. If you wanted PAL60, you would have to turn off the Xbox, plug in a standard AV cable, switch on, change to PAL60, switch off, plug in HDAV pack, then turn on again. It was a pain in the arse quite frankly.

After a bit more thought, I think that the problem might be in the EEPROM rather than the software for the dashboard. I'm not totally sure on this, so if anyone knows for certain, feel free to jump in

That is alot harder to update by M$ and no doubt would have been fixed with the new model Xboxes, if it were at all possible.

By way of differring between NTSC and PAL Progressive is the frequency, PAL is 50Hz and NTSC is 60Hz, it's the same with all the HD resolutions.

For Enhanced Definition

NTSC - 480p @ 60Hz
PAL - 576p @ 50Hz

Once you get into the HD stuff, both resolutions are the same but at either 50 or 60Hz. It's only in the ED resolutions you really notice a difference.

It simply isn't possible. Leave you Xbox set to NTSC and enjoy progressive as it is.

[Dreamcazman]

QUOTE (newbie1300 @ Mar 19 2004, 04:37 AM)

No - progressive is not part of the PAL/NTSC specs!  DTV is NOT PAL or NTSC!  The only similarity is the scan rate, the signals are no longer PAL or NTSC, there is no such thing as progressive pal, to my knowledge.  Hell, maybe I'm completely wrong here, but you're off topic

WTF are you talking about? Of course there is a difference, like I said, not in HD resoulutions but ED resolutions 576p IS NOT the same at 480p.

QUOTE

The evidence points to MS disabling the HDAV pack and this mode on PAL boxes because not all display devices in all PAL regions support 480p, all I'm trying to do is confirm this and locate one of these early PAL v1.0 boxes to see what behaviour a HDAV pack exhibits, if it will output 480p@60Hz or 50Hz or, as you suggest, only an interlaced signal.  Why would it ONLY allow you to select 480p and not PAL60 if it couldn't actually output a 480p signal?  How were you viewing this, with what cable and in what display mode?  Does your display accept 480p, were you able to actually test it or is this all speculation on your part?

I've got a HDTV that can do any resolution (480p/576p/720p/1080i) and anyways, if you cared to check your Xbox and booted with a HDAV pack set to PAL and entered the video setup, you will see it gives you the option to set TV type and PAL60 option. Upon entering the PAL60 option, instead of it asking "Does your TV support PAL60?", it asks, "Does your HDTV support 480p?" No matter what you choose, it keeps PAL60 set as it was before you entered the menu and does not enable 480p. This is the same with all Xboxes. Mines a v1.0 incidentally, one of the first off the assembly line.

Don't you think with all the hackers out there that someone would have figured out if a PAL Xbox could do progressive output?  Where did you hear this 'rumour' anyways?

I don't particularly feel like getting into an argument about whether the PAL Xbox can do progressive or not - It's a stupid argument.

[newbie1300]

QUOTE (Dreamcazman @ Mar 19 2004, 08:35 AM)

QUOTE (newbie1300 @ Mar 19 2004, 04:37 AM) No - progressive is not part of the PAL/NTSC specs!  DTV is NOT PAL or NTSC!  The only similarity is the scan rate, the signals are no longer PAL or NTSC, there is no such thing as progressive pal, to my knowledge.  Hell, maybe I'm completely wrong here, but you're off topic WTF are you talking about? Of course there is a difference, like I said, not in HD resoulutions but ED resolutions 576p IS NOT the same at 480p.

Where did I claim there was not a difference?  Where did I claim 576p is the same as 480p?  WTF are YOU talking about?!?

QUOTE

I've got a HDTV that can do any resolution (480p/576p/720p/1080i) and anyways, if you cared to check your Xbox and booted with a HDAV pack set to PAL and entered the video setup, you will see it gives you the option to set TV type and PAL60 option. Upon entering the PAL60 option, instead of it asking "Does your TV support PAL60?", it asks, "Does your HDTV support 480p?" No matter what you choose, it keeps PAL60 set as it was before you entered the menu and does not enable 480p. This is the same with all Xboxes. Mines a v1.0 incidentally, one of the first off the assembly line.

Clearly the dashboard is at fault here, by displaying 480p at all and/or ignoring the option and keeping it set to PAL60.  Definitly something MS should have fixed up, but it's irrelevent - it just goes to show how supremely they've stuffed this up, when they can't even get their dashboard to hide all mention of the HD modes.

The point is, is the video chipset capable of outputting 480p@60Hz/50Hz when the box is set to PAL?  Is it physically capable of this, not "has MS disabled it?" as we know that to be true.  Finding one of these rumoured v1.0 boxes that didn't have their HD modes disabled would confirm this.  The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, mate.  There's a debug dashboard that apparently lets you set these modes on a PAL box, but it won't run any retail code.

QUOTE

Don't you think with all the hackers out there that someone would have figured out if a PAL Xbox could do progressive output?

Err, they can - according to the documentation at xbox-linux.org people are viewing 480/720p on PAL boxes, in PAL mode.  i.e. MS have disabled it in their bios and (badly) in their dashboard i.e. yes it is technically possible for a PAL box to output progressive.  Maybe I am wrong, and this simply isn't possible, but all of the references that I've found online hints to it being a distinct possibility, that the hardware is capable of it (probably only @60Hz), that MS only disabled it due to display compatibility problems AFTER the Xbox was launched.

QUOTE

Where did you hear this 'rumour' anyways?

Funnily enough I can't find the original reference to it anymore, but it's out there somewhere.  Try google.  There are plenty of references to the HDAV cable being on store shelves in Australia for several weeks until they were pulled - I simply cannot believe that the HD modes weren't even enabled in the dashboard, that would have been a royal fuckup, though I admit that it's possible.  Very few would have complained, and there would have been no reason to recall them from sale, if the dashboard simply made no mention of the HD modes and allowed PAL boxes to use the cable in interlaced mode only.  Then there was a chroma sampling problem with DVD playback...  complete clusterfuck, so they're saving face instead of actually fixing the problem.

QUOTE

I don't particularly feel like getting into an argument about whether the PAL Xbox can do progressive or not - It's a stupid argument.

You may find it stupid, but this doesn't mean it's not a valid or constructive point to debate.  Move to another thread!

[Dreamcazman]

QUOTE

Where did I claim there was not a difference? Where did I claim 576p is the same as 480p? WTF are YOU talking about?!?

Don't you remember typing this

QUOTE

No - progressive is not part of the PAL/NTSC specs! DTV is NOT PAL or NTSC! The only similarity is the scan rate, the signals are no longer PAL or NTSC, there is no such thing as progressive pal, to my knowledge. Hell, maybe I'm completely wrong here, but you're off topic

Hmm...

Anyways, why the hell should I move to another thread? I'm the only one talking you you about this, besides Ug Lee who pretty much confirmed what I had already said.

It all boils down to that M$ stuffed the whole thing, and it simply does not work at this present time. Whether some sort of patch or hardware fix is released in the future remains to be seen, but I don't think anything will ever eventuate.

I will be honest and say that I do not know the full in-depth inner workings of the video decoder chip (be it Connexant, Focus or the Xcalibur) as to whether they can or can't do PAL progressive, but as you say the linux mob have done it...  

I'm done with this conversation.

[newbie1300]

QUOTE (Dreamcazman @ Mar 20 2004, 05:35 AM)

QUOTE Where did I claim there was not a difference? Where did I claim 576p is the same as 480p? WTF are YOU talking about?!? Don't you remember typing this QUOTE No - progressive is not part of the PAL/NTSC specs! DTV is NOT PAL or NTSC! The only similarity is the scan rate, the signals are no longer PAL or NTSC, there is no such thing as progressive pal, to my knowledge. Hell, maybe I'm completely wrong here, but you're off topic Hmm...

It means what it says, not what you THINK it means.  Read it again, nowhere do I say that there is not a difference, nowhere do I say that 480p is the same as 576p, I'm trying to explain to you that DTV is not PAL or NTSC - its something completely different.  They use the same scan rate, and usually share ONE common resolution, but they are not the same thing.  480p is not "progressive NTSC", just as 576p is not "progressive PAL".  What do you think I'm talking about, just what are you trying to say?!?

QUOTE

Anyways, why the hell should I move to another thread? I'm the only one talking you you about this, besides Ug Lee who pretty much confirmed what I had already said.

Because you think it's a stupid argument, and this is turning into a discussion about video chipsets and DTV modes - it's now completely off-topic.  If you think it's stupid, or that I'm wrong, just say so and move on - there's no point hanging around here arguing your point when you're unable to actually answer my question, only provide your opinion.  I'm after facts here, if you have nothing else to contribute, move along...

QUOTE

It all boils down to that M$ stuffed the whole thing, and it simply does not work at this present time. Whether some sort of patch or hardware fix is released in the future remains to be seen, but I don't think anything will ever eventuate.

I agree, but it's IRRELEVENT!  I'm talking about the possibility of a v1.0 PAL box that did support the HD modes, before the cables were pulled from store shelves and before they disabled support for the HDAV cables in subsequent versions.  You're just restating the obvious.

QUOTE

I will be honest and say that I do not know the full in-depth inner workings of the video decoder chip (be it Connexant, Focus or the Xcalibur) as to whether they can or can't do PAL progressive, but as you say the linux mob have done it...

Ok.  Thankyou for contributing your opinion.  Does anyone ACTUALLY KNOW?

QUOTE

I'm done with this conversation.

[alexcs]

sorry to bring up an old thread, but a lot was left unanswered here.

i understand that the 576 number comes from the number of horizontal lines of information output from a standard definition PAL signal.

480 is the number of lines output from a SD NTSC signal.

is this correct?

i will assume it is just to proceed to my next points.

480i and 576i are therefore the old signals, in that they are interlaced.

so 480p and 576p are the progressive scan signals of ntsc and pal respectively right?

if this is the case, and it may not be at all, then why assuming you have a tv capable of 576p and the HDAV pack, would a PAL xbox not output its games and (pal)dvd-playback at 576p?

unless there are issues with the games not being able to output properly at 576p, it should work right? is the issue that PAL games are only able to be displayed at 576i?

a lot of this is confusing, so im not even going to talk about the higher resolutions for now. perhaps if someone has at least some definite answers to these questions, it would help some people.

as an aside, progressive scan dvd players output 576p to 576p capable tvs and it improves the picture remarkably. it would seem simple that at the very least a PAL xbox could output a PAL dvd at 576p with the right cables and av packs right?

thanks for any ideas here.