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[Large Dopant white]

QUOTE (the joker @ Jan 23 2004, 04:02 AM)

QUOTE (Large Dopant white @ Jan 15 2004, 06:40 AM) How about potential developers? Or do you think that you need a gold-plated card issued by Ubergeek to be a developer? Ever consider that someone might become a developer because of one opensource project or another? Or the afformentioned point that it's nice to see multiple working models of the same goal? You may as well use the "XDK's illegal so the GPL means nothing beatch |00z3R!" argument. I know you'd like to play poker where everyone shows you their cards, but that's not how things works. If you were to work at an office free of charge for a month, and you get a 500 usd bill for rent of desk and office space since these things is actual cost for a company. Would you have payed it or told your boss to get real ?

I regretfully do not understand your allegory. Perhaps I've missed something... or it just legitimately doesn't make sense. Either way, you've thoroughly led this thread off the path from the misunderstanding of MissSplitch, who, may I remind you, mistook the whole "GPL in relation to the XDK" thing as "Users demanding source code".
Again, No one demands open source. But, by logic of the message in which my quoted reply is to (which I shall post here):

QUOTE

GPL on that xbox ? pffft. XBOX-Devs owes nothing to to the users, it's just about xbox devs respecting other devs wishes regarding their own sources.

You made it seem like a "developer" is a class of people hand-picked, which you then contradic by saying, "I wish devs would be treated as users". I hate to tell you this, but developers with your attitude is what makes developers like yourself get treated like so. You act elite, well, then, you damn well better step up to the plate and *be* elite. You want to act like you're not any more special than the normal joe (which, let me remind you, you're not, you just have an aquired skill), then no one will actually depend on you to, say, release an app on time or with this and that feature.
And a little off the subject of coding and whatnot, why the hell are you programming for free when you have claimed to make only $10,000 a year and you have a mortgage? No offence, but get off your ass and work a little more/get another job/better job/etc. No one's gonna recieve updates if you're homeless, after all, and the point of us "demanding" opensourced XBox programs will be a moot point.

[the joker]

QUOTE

You made it seem like a "developer" is a class of people hand-picked, which you then contradic by saying, "I wish devs would be treated as users". I hate to tell you this, but developers with your attitude is what makes developers like yourself get treated like so. You act elite, well, then, you damn well better step up to the plate and *be* elite. You want to act like you're not any more special than the normal joe (which, let me remind you, you're not, you just have an aquired skill), then no one will actually depend on you to, say, release an app on time or with this and that feature. And a little off the subject of coding and whatnot, why the hell are you programming for free when you have claimed to make only $10,000 a year and you have a mortgage? No offence, but get off your ass and work a little more/get another job/better job/etc. No one's gonna recieve updates if you're homeless, after all, and the point of us "demanding" opensourced XBox programs will be a moot point.

...and this is why many people don't want to program for the xbox. And for information, low income does not mean that I work little.  I work 12 to 15 hours every day in the prototype lab I own ( and trying to start )... and the rest of the day goes to developing free for assholes like yourself. Why is it so hard to leave devs in peace - what did I ( or any other dev ) ever ask from you.....or anyone else ?  And more importantly, why is thinking that giving me a bad attitude ?  

Anyone can be a developer, it's not hard at all. Its hardly as skill. You should try it, this is the deal :

You give :

-few 1000s hours of research and developing.
-whatever people wants
-support to the 100s of people that didn't really get it right on the last release.


You (naturally) expect :

-to get some thanks for the free work
-to get some deserved recognizion

You get :

-People telling you to not act so l33t just because you're a programmer
-People asking for the code ( happened in every occation so far )
-Assholes that tells you that the stuff you made is shit
-Smartasses that treats you like if you belive you were god
-people that belive you work for THEM
-a handfull people that thanks for the efforts
-a few people that seriously threatens you ( for odd reasons always )


Now keep in mind one thing.... I never spoke for myself, I speak for the general developer. Does that mean I'm acting l33t ?  That I care about the people that busts their asses off for you ?   I fail to see where you're heading.

[Nailed]

QUOTE (the joker @ Jan 25 2004, 05:35 AM)

You (naturally) expect : -to get some thanks for the free work -to get some deserved recognizion

I believe all developers ultimately want some respect for their hard work... I know I do.   As a matter of fact, it's respect that will ultimately give me my next job promotion.  My end users respect my software for making their lives easier, my peers respect me for my technical know-how, and management respects me for bettering the company.

Now imagine I'm your peer, not an end user.  To gain my respect, I would like to see source code and/or technical know-how.  Are these outrageous requests?   I don't think so.  I don't demand your respect... don't demand mine.

[the joker]

QUOTE

Last, I just like to mention that my highest respect goes to those devs who've released tech docs and/or source... Ben Jeremy, the XBox-Linux team, & the XBMC team come to mind among many others. Do you see the Avalaunch team joining their ranks someday?

We have actually released sources and documents for a lot of different things since the early days of xbox scene, but as you see yourself....you werent aware because you don't really care about bits and pieces. You want either the entire package or it doesn't really matter.

On a different matter, there is GPL code and there's the kind of code you only are allowed to use as long as you DO NOT release it. I'm from a nordic amiga-group that has done a lot for the demo-scene upthrough the years, we call us "Crusaders". We got a ton of people in game-companies programming neat stuff and they gave us some pushes in the right direction with a few engines.  But if we released it, it could cause them a lot of problems. So we can't release more than bits and pieces which we have done for a year or so since mid 2002.

QUOTE

Now imagine I'm your peer, not an end user. To gain my respect, I would like to see source code and/or technical know-how. Are these outrageous requests? I don't think so. I don't demand your respect... don't demand mine.

I think most devs don't exactly want people to bow for them, just the kind of respect that let them feel good about what they have done. This is the only "payment" they will get, and it's not asking for a lot imho.  It's a good deal for the users.
-If you really are not the end user....you wouldn't really need the sources.  I never had a single line of source when I started programming on the xbox - and I'm not even a skilled programmer. Still, it worked out and I learned a lot doing it, just like everyone else.


----


Dunno, dont get me wrong - I'm not upset in any way, I'm just curious about what you really want.  If you got the sources of UX or AVA or whatnot, what would you do with it, that you couldn't do with any other released source?

[the joker]

hehehehe, good answer.  At least honest one.

[Jsmith]

Then just look at the sources for MXM or for XBMP.  Unless you want to learn how to do something specific that only Ava or Unleash has done, then there's no reason why you need those sources.  And if there is something specific, just email them and I'm sure you'll get a reply.

Again...if you want to poke around the code of an entire xbox app, then look at the open source apps, and read the development tutorials...don't waste your time hounding the authors of closed source apps.  It won't get you very far.

[Nailed]

QUOTE (Jsmith @ Jan 27 2004, 01:34 AM)

Then just look at the sources for MXM or for XBMP.  Unless you want to learn how to do something specific that only Ava or Unleash has done, then there's no reason why you need those sources.  And if there is something specific, just email them and I'm sure you'll get a reply. Again...if you want to poke around the code of an entire xbox app, then look at the open source apps, and read the development tutorials...don't waste your time hounding the authors of closed source apps.  It won't get you very far.

I'm not hounding... I've kept all conversation regarding open source to this thread.  And yes, I have looked at the sources of many scene related apps.  Anyway, I'm done on the subject.  Whether the source is released or not... at least I asked.  

Off to rant about something else.
- Nailed

[hydraulix]

Open source = not good.

UnleashX will have of what you mentioned fixed/added in the next release.

I can't speak for him personally on this, but I can tell you open source is bad. just take a look at linux, if open source is so good, why isnt linux on everyones desktop instead of windows?

[heinrich]

I dont think that has anything to do with it being opensource... there is a learning curve from windows -> linux, not everyone can take that leap.  With your analogy, free software is bad for the same reason.

I dont see how an open source dash (MXM, Nexgen) is any worse off because of it...

[joseph_hac]

QUOTE

If you want maybe to keep a tight control over 'spin-off' versions. you maybe could enforce via license that only source patches are to be published and no versions could be derived (like the SSH client for windows, "putty")

How do you expect him to enforce a license on ILLEGAL software.  Forgive me if I'm wrong, but UnleashX was developed with a stollen XDK.  

QUOTE

I can't speak for him personally on this, but I can tell you open source is bad. just take a look at linux, if open source is so good, why isnt linux on everyones desktop instead of windows?

How the hell can you say Linux is bad?? Have you ever used Linux? NO! Because if you did you would know that it is a very stable, secure, and highly customizable platform. It isn't in every home because it isn't easy for the average idiot to use. Why? Because it is geared towards tech savvy users. Imagine the tie ups at the MS support centre if they let the average user recompile the kernel! Take a look at some reports on the server market. Linux servers are going up while MS servers are crashing and burning! *Pun Intended*

If your going to voice an opinion, at least educate yourself on the subject before doing so.

[Rollo]

QUOTE

If your going to voice an opinion, at least educate yourself on the subject before doing so.

Ahhhh....fuck that......just say what you want and let somebody else take your foot out of your mouth.  that way they can feel superiorand you can feel good that you made them feel good and everybody wins.

[Rollo]

i love smart remarks.......arguements are a close second.

[Frop]

Personally, I'd love it to be open source... Could take care of little things that I want myself.

However, that is ultimately the creators decision and perfectly reasonable to keep it closed.


---
Linux isnt non popular because it is open source, it is because windows is so much more n00b friendly and has a much larger software base, especially for home computing/gaming.

[Rollo]

if you didn't waste all your space gushing about your xbox you could have a pretty nice set of guns too!......FIRE AT WILL! ....i used to have info about my xbox ....it said "Emulators Up Yo Ass".....nobody really cares.....so its gone......

[Rollo]

QUOTE

ladies...ladies...settle down... this doesn't really matter...common now

here's one for you Cali...

P.S. ....i'm not talking to you anymore