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[KAGE360]

QUOTE(nickthegreat @ Aug 23 2006, 01:02 PM)

no i understand that; my point was if PS3 can do MGS @1080   - then according to Kojima so can the 360. A trade off Im willing to accept: Kira is right, but therefore the 360 can run games @1080p also.

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“It’s technically possible (for the 360 to run MGS),” he said (kojima), “[except for] maybe some nuance or a small detail here and there might be different".
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-Im sorry, but 1080p is not a small nuance or detail; God Im looking forward to PGR1 @1080

At least someone is willing to use 'technical' comparisons.................

running a game at 1080i vs 1080p is entirely different.  DoA4 is rendered internally at 1080i so of course its possible.  im telling him that no ps3 game (or 360 for that matter) will run at 1080p with next gen graphics, including MGS4.

also i dont recall any comment/interview from kojima stating that he's shooting for 1080p in MGS4.  if he is using that fake kojima interview that has been roaming around then that is quite sad.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(nickthegreat @ Aug 23 2006, 01:14 PM)

no mate, you misunderstand: that was me that found an interview with kojima stating that MGS was possible on the 360, but he wanted to do it on the PS3 so that he could do something 'first' (whatever that means.) He stated that it was technically possible to achieve MGS on the 360, so therefore, by my assertion, if kira believes MGS will be @1080p (look up -1080i/p-, I edited that bit just before you replied, i do have some knowledge, 'without knowing shit'   ) Kojima therefore infers this is also possible on the 360. Which would piss Sony off just a bit  

ahhh now i get it sorry, to be honest with you i havent checked out any of the provided links because i am at work and with their filters i am very limited to what i can see here.  now i know what you mean, sorry

regardless, MGS4 may be in 1080i (which is what the TGS trailer was running at i believe) but no way will it render at 1080p.  the graphics in MGS4 have been toned down considerably since the first TGS trailer but that doesnt mean that 1080p is possible

notice how he is silent now?  its sad he rather not respond to educated post and admit we have good points, instead he will just not post at all.  i try to give credit where its due at least.

[Kira Yamoto]

no link no argument.  Duly noted on 360 capable of MGS thanks Nick.  I never brought up, nor disputed it the 360's ability anyways.

my argument is that, there are absolutely ZERO productions and/or products for the cell chip, outside of Playstation 3 software.  Since there are no results, and no official releases, we only have the word of the dev to go on, which btw, NONE of you have provided.  Kage360 is sitting there claiming facts and shit when he didn't quote a single source.  Said source (if it exists) was probably second-hand too.   Again, I don't claim to know anything intimate about the Cell, but neither do any of you, and none of you can attest to what happens during Cell development.  This is pretty much common sense, yet, none of you are attempting to bolster your stances on this subject.  I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here and if I see the same post repeated over again I will not reply.

@kage360

your post was far from educated.  My common sense > your supposed educated post.  There is one thing absolutely missing that is detrimental to your argument.  You lack sources.  Since I claim no knowledge on the subject, but, you claim knowledge due to other sources, you did not provide said sources and your argument collapses.

Also, you claim that I went silent when I just havent gotten to it yet.

since you guys are so educated, maybe you'll want to eat a piece of this, I'm sure you'll attempt to debunk it anyhow, even though it makes perfect sense if you know the topics discussed.

http://blogs.guardia...rogramming.html

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE

The article indicates that many developers are losing faith in SCE's vision gaming evolution driven solely by technology. It does not refer to difficulties in programming for the PS3 the main concern listed is the development cost increase & the fact that Kutaragi Sensei has indicated that producing games of the same quality as the PS2 is unacceptable.

The fact that the Xcast 360 will have a lower price point in Japan is also used to point out that Sony risk positioning themselves as a Macintosh in a PC world.

The article points out that MS have been very successful in taking advantage of these concerns to sign major Japanese developers.

Seems like the Sony developer relations people have their work cut out for them in getting real buy-in on the agenda.

QUOTE

Translation from Dutch to English:

Developers seem to abandon the PS3, Sony's new
game console. Development-costs seemingly
weight in at a hefty 20 million on average,
which many developers think is over the top.
These developers, called third-parties (DUH),
are said to move on to Xbox360.

In the (Japanese) game industry, many people
are losing trust in Kutaragi's non-stop pursue
of this evolution, people are leaving PS3 at a
rate worse than Nintendo's GameCube era.

Yesterday for instance, news broke of Sega's
Condemned being canceled for PlayStation 3.
At least, that's what the official website
states.
At this point, there have been 103 titles
confirmed in development for PS3 versus over
200 for Xbox360.

Oh gee, way to present your argument over an article that had NOTHING to do difficulty of developement, in a debate ABOUT difficulty of development.  Which only goes to show you, you HAVE no sources and everything you say is complete bollocks.  So far, I haven't seen a credible source that said Cell or PS3 development was actually "a bitch to develop for"

[Reaper527]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 23 2006, 01:43 PM)

my argument is that, there are absolutely ZERO productions and/or products for the cell chip, outside of Playstation 3 software.  

thats not true, like i said, the cell is available in computers now, its released by mercury computers. there IS development going on with the cell chip and everything i've heard was negative, including the fact that compiling software takes extra steps as it requires two seperate compilations for the the differant cores and then a special linking process. this is definately productions/products outside of playstation3 software.

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE(Reaper527 @ Aug 23 2006, 07:19 PM)

thats not true, like i said, the cell is available in computers now, its released by mercury computers. there IS development going on with the cell chip and everything i've heard was negative, including the fact that compiling software takes extra steps as it requires two seperate compilations for the the differant cores and then a special linking process. this is definately productions/products outside of playstation3 software.

no link no argument. YOU are presenting the case, not I.  Also, we were debating difficulty in developing or PS3, not computer programs made for the cell.  OK, now you're claiming that said apps exist.  But in order to bolster your argument as firm, you need evidence, in the form of various sources (mostly directly from said developer) I would also like you to prove that these apps are being developed for consumers.  Otherwise anyone can assume that you just made all that up to continue the debate in your favor.

[Kira Yamoto]

@nickthegreat

you shouldnt.  as I said, unless its offical or direct from dev's it shouldn't be taken seriously.  But in the end, I posted it because that area of debate has not been disputed. speaking of course, graphics dev.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 23 2006, 02:14 PM)

btw, I just read that article you were talking about Kage360 and its a bunch of bollocks.  Lol that you would ever claim to use such an article as your source, and claims that it "came from devs".  Suuuuuure.  I ended up reading the translation and it basically says that developers were losing faith in Ken Kutaragi and his vision for evolution.  They attribute most of the blame to cost of development.  None of which translates to actual difficulty of development mind you.  It's just game politics at work here.
Oh gee, way to present your argument over an article that had NOTHING to do difficulty of developement, in a debate ABOUT difficulty of development.  Which only goes to show you, you HAVE no sources and everything you say is complete bollocks.  So far, I haven't seen a credible source that said Cell or PS3 development was actually "a bitch to develop for"

what the fuck is wrong with you and what the fuck are you talking about?  i have spoken of many articles and the facts i have posted are well documented.  

ok you dumb son of a bitch, you want links??  i will do the best i can while i am at work which limits me greatly.

link that Cell is being used in something else besides ps3....
http://www.wii60.com...read.php?t=3914

that article you posted i have no idea what that is from.  the article i spoke about with development difficulties came from a gameinformer magazine, here is the link....
http://onthexbox.com...15395#post15395

ask me to link anything else and i will try, as for the info i provided on the Cell....

-The Cell's seven SPEs have no cache, no direct access to memory, no branch predictor, and a different instruction set from the PS3's main CPU.

-Cell must emulate dot product using multiple instructions.

-A lot of the game code consist of AI and path-finding, which require random access to memory and frequent branches, which the SPEs are ill-suited to.

-designed more for serialized streaming math code, more common in video codecs and audio processing, the traditional domain of digital signal processing chips.

these are all commenly known FACTS about the Cell chip you dumb-shit.  i cant provide links as i am at work, but ask ANYONE at these forums with any knowledge and they will approve them to be correct.  make a fuckin effort to learn something new instead of disputing what others say.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(nickthegreat @ Aug 23 2006, 03:24 PM)

I find this quite humerous, because I knew he could prove most of that shit, because Ive also read it from respectable sources............ Im neither as knowledgable nor as involved in this conversation however, and finding old sources is a bitch. But I knew you'd be taunted into it Kage, so I kept quiet  

i dont know if your stating i can prove it or he can but he is really getting annoying.  finding old sources is a bitch but because of mangina's like kira over here i will be sure to save every little link to every bit of info i digest from now on to avoid future bullshit.

ahh another link for his assinine almighty...

I don't think the Cell is as well designed for game development as Sony would have you believe. Some aspects of the SPEs, such as the lack of branch prediction, make them particularly unsuited to running most game code, which contains a lot of branches. They appear to be designed more for serialized streaming math code, more common in video codecs and audio processing, the traditional domain of digital signal processing chips. The memory architecture of the SPEs, specifically their lack of automatic cache coherency in favor of DMA transactions, seems like a lot of overhead is needed to feed work units to the SPEs and copy the results back to system memory.

http://arstechnica.c...e/mattlee.ars/4

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE

you point as us "AMERICAN" developers complaining, i have heard complaints from all over the globe.

Which led me to believe that these articles were what you were referring to.  Which most likely ARE, but you're going to disavow anyways to save face.
#5.  You pointed to an article in Game Informer.  But an article in Game Informer is hardly credible considering that:

1. Sources are annonymous
2. Devs could be anybody including the random guy on the most basic level
3. Sources do not claim they are developing for the PS3 specifically
4. Only ONE question/poll pertained to actual PS3 developers who had kits to work with.

It's pretty obvious that you can basically throw this poll out the window as it doesnt paint a big enough (and credible enough) picture.  There is nothing in there that specifically says the PS3 is harder to develop for either.  Just that (again) it costs too much.

---
for your newest post:  the source came from a 360 developer who has not worked on a PS3 system in his life.  That comment was made "IN THEORY" like I've been saying all along.  Remember earlier in this thread that members of opposing camps, and interviewers would only cater to THEIR propaganda as it suits them? Why would this 360 developer praise his rival company?

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 23 2006, 04:26 PM)

I find this quite humorous too because he's actually taking this seriously to be using such profane words.  The battle isnt with me, but with his own posts.

#1.  Link was to a forum dedicated to Wii and Xbox 360, therefore its Biased against the PS3.  Even the posts after it bolster my argument further.
#2. Said article was about hardware specifications for their PC Cell workstation and not consumer, nor the difficulty of development for PC.  This still doesnt provide the existence of applications developed on a Cell workstation, only the hardware used to make one.
#3. The minor facts about the Cell were never at dispute, what really were at dispute was the fact that you would not provide a source to your arguments, thus rendering it useless and pointless.  Even for these so called, "common knowledge"
#4. You were talking about global opinions that developers thought the cell was hard to develop for.  The article I spoke of (dutch and japanese articles in their own languages) here's your original quote
 Which led me to believe that these articles were what you were referring to.  Which most likely ARE, but you're going to disavow anyways to save face.
#5.  You pointed to an article in Game Informer.  But an article in Game Informer is hardly credible considering that:

1. Sources are annonymous
2. Devs could be anybody including the random guy on the most basic level
3. Sources do not claim they are developing for the PS3 specifically
4. Only ONE question/poll pertained to actual PS3 developers who had kits to work with.

It's pretty obvious that you can basically throw this poll out the window as it doesnt paint a big enough (and credible enough) picture.  There is nothing in there that specifically says the PS3 is harder to develop for either.  Just that (again) it costs too much.

---
for your newest post:  the source came from a 360 developer who has not worked on a PS3 system in his life.  That comment was made "IN THEORY" like I've been saying all along.  Remember earlier in this thread that members of opposing camps, and interviewers would only cater to THEIR propaganda as it suits them? Why would this 360 developer praise his rival company?

.

i knew it, you will find a reason to dispute anything i post.  his opinion is just that, but what he states is fact.  the cell does not have many features that developers favor for game development, why the hell is that so hard to understand?

i posted the link of Cell in a PC because you commented that Cell is only being used in the ps3 so far.

the poll questions developers.  more then one poll pertained to developers with kits.  the saturn comment should answer all of your doubts right there.  but noooooooooo, its against what you think so its hard to comprehend.   of course the sources are annonymous, but GI would only ask developers on a developer poll.  its the results that should matter not who specifically is asked.  

ask M_hael, go ahead and he will support these "commen knowledge" that you dont care to learn.  until you can prove me wrong why not just shut the fuck up.

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE

i posted the link of Cell in a PC because you commented that Cell is only being used in the ps3 so far.

SOFTWARE DUMBASS SOFTWARE, in which NONE of you have produced an application (or a name of) outside of PS3 development, only of the hardware USED to develop.  Not only have none of you have produced an application, but none of you have produced an article, interview, or offical source backing up that those developers had trouble developing for this specific platform.  Thus all arguments rendered broken.

in response to your latest argument.  You can't produce a successful 'credits' link, linking Matt Lee to development of that game.  Regardless, he is with MS.  Thus, "MS's Matt Lee" Also even if he WERE on THP8, he would be on the 360 developent side, NOT PS3's.  You would think that with the same game on both platforms, they would have the same team coding for them.  But that is not true.  Look at the most recent being EA's Madden 07, with the 360 and PS2 versions being different.  There are two different teams moron.  Do your fucking research.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 23 2006, 04:49 PM)

BECAUSE HE ISNT A PS3 DEVELOPER YOU MORON.  I'm over with this argument.  I've said what I needed to say, and your shitty "sources" are revealed.  Good day.

yes he is you fucking moron!  tony hawk project 8 is going to be on the ps3.  

again showing how much you DONT know.  

also these sources are the best I CAN DO AT WORK.

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE(STICKY_BUD @ Aug 24 2006, 03:03 AM)

@ everyone except the MANGINA - please do yourself, and everyone else, a favor and simply ignore the idiots posts. this will help many others too because we come in here to read thoughtful comments on interesting topics, but when you, and everyone else, post a reply to the same dumbass, it becomes very hard to ignore his useless opinion.

how is it thoughtful when you can't prove a single word you say? kinda defeats the whole purpose isn't it?  seems to me like all this forum was created for was to hate on the PS3.  Which is what everyone seems to be doing, circle jerking each other.  Look at my game's list thread.  That thread was meant to incite positive reactions about the upcoming games and it turned out to be, "oh well, Xbox 360 is gonna have this so who really gives a damn?" and, "Oh well I don't play that series anyways, so who cares?" Let me point out as well, that there are also posts about "so and so game is taken away from PS3!!"  This is totally the OPPOSITE reaction and kind of topics that are out of place with the PS3 boards. This very topic was ABOUT video files and formats used to play back on the PS3, and it's turned to, "GOD DAMNIT KIRA I'M RIGHT JUST ADMIT IT" thread.  I'm ashemed to even be posting here, as the only REAL optimist looking forward to PS3.  It's sad because it's I that have actual useful posts such as what games are coming out, and ways to address HD in a cheap solution.

thoughtful comments? about someone who posts biased comments and theories from a MS employee after it was commonly accepted that you don't take word seriously from someone who was being interviewed solely for the support and favor of your own company?  He also fabricated the fact that he was a Neversoft employee, which was false, because he was made out to be a MS employee in that very same article they rolled out.  I asked him to prove by giving me Neversoft credits and he failed to produce it.  Dumbass? I don't fucking think so.  I'm no fucking tool. I don't believe what everyone says including Sony.

good fucking lord, I've been here on Xbox-scene for awhile, and have never seen such idiocy all rolled up into one place.  It's one thing to be a total dumbass, but its common sense that you back up your own arguments.

[nickthegreat]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 23 2006, 06:43 PM)

no link no argument.  

since you guys are so educated, maybe you'll want to eat a piece of this, I'm sure you'll attempt to debunk it anyhow, even though it makes perfect sense if you know the topics discussed.

http://blogs.guardia...rogramming.html

umm - this proves my point why the guardian is rubbish: in your article they state that a Ps3 programmer has stated 'its not that hard, honest' - and then they quote Carmack as stating the PS3 is a 'pain in the ass'. -http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,1835502,00.html

and I obviously don't like quoting the guardian so here are carmacks comments from elsewhere
http://www.next-gen....c...86&Itemid=2