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[lostboyz]

hrm VC-1 a MS codec, and what format are they pushing? oh yea HD-DVD

so even if sony/samsung team are purchasing the rights to use VC-1 (which was news to me) then they are helping out the opponent anyway

[ConteZero76]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VC-1

"SMPTE standard, VC-1 is open to implementation by 3rd parties which in turn have to pay licensing fees to the MPEG-LA licensing body."

As you can see there's also a FFMpeg free implementation.

[incognegro]

QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Jul 7 2006, 08:46 AM)

I don't see the point.

BD-DVD and HD-DVD are the same when it comes to video quality because they use the same codecs.

Quote (from http://en.wikipedia..../Blu-ray_Disc):
A compliant BD-ROM player must be able to decode at least the following codecs: MPEG-2, the standard used for DVDs; MPEG-4's H.264/AVC codec; and VC-1, a codec based on MS's Windows Media 9. Realistically, when using MPEG-2, quality considerations would limit the publisher to around two hours of high-definition content on a single-layer BD-ROM. The two more advanced video codecs can typically attain four hours of high quality video.

and quote (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD):
Both of the new formats are likely to be backward compatible with DVDs and both employ the same video compression techniques: MPEG-2, Video Codec 1 (VC1) and H.264/MPEG-4 AVC.

They are just a transport medium.
Anyway a single layer only BD-DVD is not funny, but can hold up to 25Gb; an HD-DVD have to be dual layer (and almost full) to store the same data.

hold up, aren't the current HD-DVDs on the market the dual layer 30 gig ones? if so then as far as Im concern BDs don't interest me yet. in fact, I dont really care that much its just nice to be in-the-know of things. I have seen an hd dvd and blu ray player over the weekend and i can confirm that BDs aren't impressive yet. Im not gonna be investing in any of them anytime soon anyway. Dont care for the 360 add on or the ps3 for that matter. They shouldve never been included in the game systems at all. They offer no benefit just higher gaming costs!

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(h4xx3d @ Jul 25 2006, 10:13 PM)

How do they offer no benefit? Of course they offer a benefit.. Sure at the moment 9 gigs is more than enough for developers with their current games. But I doubt that will be the case in 3 years when the consoles are at their peak. Of course a bigger game does not necessarily mean a better game, but as games become more complex, disc size could become a limiting factor.

if DVD9 would not be enough we would have figured that out by now.  high resolution textures are high resolution textures, just because they get more out of the system doesnt mean that they will need more out of the disk format.  also how complex a game is means nothing on game size as can be seen with oblivion, not to mention the fact that almost no games is using precederal synthesis yet and when developers adopt to this new technique, disk space worries will be a thing of the past

[incognegro]

QUOTE(h4xx3d @ Jul 26 2006, 03:13 AM)

How do they offer no benefit? Of course they offer a benefit.. Sure at the moment 9 gigs is more than enough for developers with their current games. But I doubt that will be the case in 3 years when the consoles are at their peak. Of course a bigger game does not necessarily mean a better game, but as games become more complex, disc size could become a limiting factor.

Ppl still believe that devs are gonna need more than dvd9!....lol

poor guy

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE

if DVD9 would not be enough we would have figured that out by now. high resolution textures are high resolution textures, just because they get more out of the system doesnt mean that they will need more out of the disk format. also how complex a game is means nothing on game size as can be seen with oblivion, not to mention the fact that almost no games is using precederal synthesis yet and when developers adopt to this new technique, disk space worries will be a thing of the past

MGS4 cannot be fit onto a dvd9.  If they are making such a high quality game, and state that, in its current form, cannot be fit onto a dvd9, then obviously for the higher rated titles we WILL need more than 9 gigs.

MS is leading you to believe that devs don't need more than 9gbs.  Itadaki has expressed discontent w/ MS b/c he did not get the HDDVD that he was led to believe.  Dev's can work wonders w/ HDDVD and Bluray, considering they have the format to work with in the 1st place.

What people aren't understanding, is that not only you need to have high-resolution textures, you have to have low resolution textures as well to compensate for people who have 480P and lower.  Not only do they require a high resolution video, they also need a lower resolution video as well.  Fitting HD video is bad enough, but standard def as well?  This should already be common knowledge by now.

You cannot run 1280x720 progressive video on a 640x480 interlaced television.

[incognegro]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 4 2006, 05:15 AM)

MGS4 cannot be fit onto a dvd9.  If they are making such a high quality game, and state that, in its current form, cannot be fit onto a dvd9, then obviously for the higher rated titles we WILL need more than 9 gigs.

MS is leading you to believe that devs don't need more than 9gbs.  Itadaki has expressed discontent w/ MS b/c he did not get the HDDVD that he was led to believe.  Dev's can work wonders w/ HDDVD and Bluray, considering they have the format to work with in the 1st place.

What people aren't understanding, is that not only you need to have high-resolution textures, you have to have low resolution textures as well to compensate for people who have 480P and lower.  Not only do they require a high resolution video, they also need a lower resolution video as well.  Fitting HD video is bad enough, but standard def as well?  This should already be common knowledge by now.

You cannot run 1280x720 progressive video on a 640x480 interlaced television.

MGS4 can't fit on a DVD9? How are you so sure that the reason it can't isn't because of sloppiness on the devs side? I mean lets be honest, the game is probably gonna have like 2mb of gameplay and 50 gigs of movies/ audio. to this day I can't figure out what is on that metal gear solid substance dvd to make it dvd9! and Itagaki was "dissapointed" because he can't fit his 1 gig CG trailors that he is notorious for on the DVD9s. He is japanese developer and we all know they love to add alot of "flash and bang" to there games to make them seem much more than what they actually are. No matter how much you try to spin it, the truth is DVD9 is big enough for "games". I didn't need MS to tell me this. After going through DOA3 on the xbox (which is about 3 gigs) and stripping down the unnecessary content on the disc, I feel ripped of when I found out that the game is only about 800mb. Nobody said anything about the gamecube discs in the last gen. The only reason ppl think more space is necassary is because sony said so! seriously, If all three systems used DVD9 then we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. You talk about MS wants you to think DVD9 is all you need; but fail to realise that Sony wants you to believe that DVD9 is not enough to justify putting blu ray in an already expensive box!

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE(incognegro @ Aug 4 2006, 01:12 PM)

MGS4 can't fit on a DVD9? How are you so sure that the reason it can't isn't because of sloppiness on the devs side? I mean lets be honest, the game is probably gonna have like 2mb of gameplay and 50 gigs of movies/ audio. to this day I can't figure out what is on that metal gear solid substance dvd to make it dvd9! and Itagaki was "dissapointed" because he can't fit his 1 gig CG trailors that he is notorious for on the DVD9s. He is japanese developer and we all know they love to add alot of "flash and bang" to there games to make them seem much more than what they actually are. No matter how much you try to spin it, the truth is DVD9 is big enough for "games". I didn't need MS to tell me this. After going through DOA3 on the xbox (which is about 3 gigs) and stripping down the unnecessary content on the disc, I feel ripped of when I found out that the game is only about 800mb. Nobody said anything about the gamecube discs in the last gen. The only reason ppl think more space is necassary is because sony said so! seriously, If all three systems used DVD9 then we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. You talk about MS wants you to think DVD9 is all you need; but fail to realise that Sony wants you to believe that DVD9 is not enough to justify putting blu ray in an already expensive box!

Ok, a few things here.

1. You "STILL" question that MGS4 can't be fit onto a DVD9, EVEN AFTER I just told you that on today's high-def games, you require double copies of textures and video? Yeah we know textures aren't that big, but videos are.  In fact you completely missed that point.  You know, you're not the only guy they are making games for.  Other people have HDTV's too ya know, and other people have standard-def tvs.

2. Just because a "fighting game" is 800MB (which most of them are in fact) doesnt mean most games are.  That's totally false.  Look at Suikoden 3, I remember trying to downsize that game to a CD and it was just impossible because there was too much game data.   The fact is, the amount of game data needed is growing higher because we need double copies of what used to be single copies.

3. Gamecube disks were heavily looked down upon by developers.  Of course, that didn't stop Capcom from releasing RE4, but it was still an obstacle in developing games.  Even poured over to other console's b/c of it.  It got so bad they turned to divX.

4.  Ok 2 things is happening here.  You're telling me, that Sony is telling me we need more space.  A developer, Hideo Kojima, is telling the world, that MGS4 can't be fit onto a DVD9.  Who am I to believe? Are you a developer? No.  I believe Hideo Kojima. I hope you don't feel too bad I picked him.

[Mr Invader]

the only reason why a game like mgs4 can't be fit onto a dvd9 is because of the high def 1080p it supports

you take away the 1080p, then you change it to 720p, and it will fit.

[incognegro]

QUOTE

1. You "STILL" question that MGS4 can't be fit onto a DVD9, EVEN AFTER I just told you that on today's high-def games, you require double copies of textures and video? Yeah we know textures aren't that big, but videos are. In fact you completely missed that point. You know, you're not the only guy they are making games for. Other people have HDTV's too ya know, and other people have standard-def tvs.

lol...Umm how bout they just use less cg and more in game cinematics? I mean umm if the ps3 can do "killzone" then what do they need cg for?...lol... Seriously though, MGS4 is gonna use more in-game than CG so what is filling all that space? If theyre using in-game cinemas your point is null.

QUOTE

2. Just because a "fighting game" is 800MB (which most of them are in fact) doesnt mean most games are. That's totally false. Look at Suikoden 3, I remember trying to downsize that game to a CD and it was just impossible because there was too much game data. The fact is, the amount of game data needed is growing higher because we need double copies of what used to be single copies.

I know that but how about games like san andreas that is just 2 gigs? That game is huge and oblivion, thats huge too. And I know not all games are gonna be able to fit on a CD and thats obvious but DVD9 have not yet seen their prime for games. So why all of a sudden they should be absolete? If its sony's opinion that they are, who is paying for it? Us, Devs....not them.

QUOTE

3. Gamecube disks were heavily looked down upon by developers. Of course, that didn't stop Capcom from releasing RE4, but it was still an obstacle in developing games. Even poured over to other console's b/c of it. It got so bad they turned to divX.

Yea but they games were still decent size in terms of gameplay so the gamers weren't complaining.

 

QUOTE

4. Ok 2 things is happening here. You're telling me, that Sony is telling me we need more space. A developer, Hideo Kojima, is telling the world, that MGS4 can't be fit onto a DVD9. Who am I to believe? Are you a developer? No. I believe Hideo Kojima. I hope you don't feel too bad I picked him.

I'd rather believe every other developer than a couple! Listen, Tons of devs have said that blu ray is too expensive and not necessary in the current game space. Just because hideo kojima (the same guy that said the xbox and the ps2 is similar in power! I mean you trust a guy that would say that!?....lol) said so doesn't mean its gospel. I don't believe him, he has said some stupid shit in the past so he has no credibility with me. Ill say it again, only japanese devs are complaining for the reason I mentioned before. As a gamer none of these things affect me cause I play games not watch them.

[Kira Yamoto]

http://www.crutchfie...mp;i=305BDP1000

check that out.  sounds really nice I'd like to get my hands on one.  It also features built in DTS plus decoding, so you can utlize this high-end feature w/o a state of the art amp.  For the extra features on the hardware itself (and future proof 1080p capability), and more titles, I'd pick this one up.

http://www.crutchfie...c...&I=052HDXA1

this one is pretty nice, but I like the upconverting features on the Samsung that the Toshiba one doesnt offer.  Also, this machine doesnt output in 1080p, so future machines will outdate it, I'd rather wait till the 360 drive.

[incognegro]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 9 2006, 07:40 PM)

http://www.crutchfie...mp;i=305BDP1000

check that out.  sounds really nice I'd like to get my hands on one.  It also features built in DTS plus decoding, so you can utlize this high-end feature w/o a state of the art amp.  For the extra features on the hardware itself (and future proof 1080p capability), and more titles, I'd pick this one up.

http://www.crutchfie...c...&I=052HDXA1

this one is pretty nice, but I like the upconverting features on the Samsung that the Toshiba one doesnt offer.  Also, this machine doesnt output in 1080p, so future machines will outdate it, I'd rather wait till the 360 drive.

got both of them at work...we use them for reviews. They are both nice

[twistedsymphony]

personally with technology where it is I don't think we should be seeing pre-rendered CG in games anymore. It's distracting...

In the PS1 era and even some last gen games it made some sense because the in game graphics were so horrible that when they showed the pre-rendered cut scene it was like "OH so THATS what my character looks like"  

On a whole it was terribly distracting though. Nothing bothers me more then playing a game with GOOD graphics, using a non default weapon wearing a non default outfit, then the game goes to a loading screen for a while and comes back with a video that looks only slighly better then what I was just playing but now has video compression artifacts and my character is outfitted completely different from what I just saw. (particularly annoying if you were playing the game in widescreen and the cutsceen has vertical black bars)

Playing Tomb Raider Legends I honestly appreciated the REAL TIME cut-scenes where the game just took over... no loading... my character looked exactly how I left them with the same weapon and outfit I was using and it just flowed like one smooth well oiled machine. IMO THAT is part of what makes next gen exciting... all the little details that make things come together to make a game TRUELY IMMERSIVE. Things swaping out on you like a low budget B movie push you right out of the experience and don't do the game any favors.

I'm sorry but if MGS4 has graphics so horrible that they feel the need to pre-render the cut-scenes the game probably wont be worth buying.

As for space requirements... if you get rid of the video files (which as I said... shouldn't be needed from this point forward) then games take up next to nothing for space even if you "double" all of the super high res textures, 3D model and animation resolutions. Oblivion is the perfect example... that game is MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE and it doesn't have so much as an ounce of CG ... on top of that both the 360 version and the PC version are GIGS below the limits of a DVD9.

Heck even last gen I can count the number of Xbox 1 games that required a 2nd layer on one hand... even if the space requirements doubled (which they haven't) there would still be enough room for 99% of the games.

[Kira Yamoto]

but with the advent of 1080p, it calls for double video files.  You can't downsample 1080p on the fly to get it to display on a standard interlaced scene.  thats like getting computer de-interlaced videos and putting them directly on XBMC or SMS. or watching uncompressed dvd on pc

[incognegro]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 9 2006, 09:46 PM)

but with the advent of 1080p, it calls for double video files.  You can't downsample 1080p on the fly to get it to display on a standard interlaced scene.  thats like getting computer de-interlaced videos and putting them directly on XBMC or SMS. or watching uncompressed dvd on pc

yes ofcourse, cause ps3 will be able to do true 1080p in most of the games  

I would love to see that.