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[Zod5000]

Isn't the problem that the ps3's cell architecture makes development more difficult, and that its currently easier to program for the 360?

I always thought I read that the biggest problem with the ps3, is developers don't know how to take advantage of the cell processors yet, and the 360 is easier to develop for?

[spinr34]

well, in regards to the content of the article, sony is allowed to dream, aren't they? but on a relative note, i believe that the ps3 as the lead platform is the best for everyone. i mean, as a 360 fanboy, i love seeing games not working right on the ps3 while they work fine on the 360 but, this isn't the way to conduct a business. as a developer, they should release games that work out of the box. if i only had a ps3, i would prefer to wait (delayed on ps3) and get a working product than rushing to the store, bring a game home and get stuck at one point then having to wait for a patch to be rls'd so i could continue. also, i'd like to see more trophy support for ps3 games.

[Chancer]

QUOTE(spinr34 @ Nov 4 2008, 11:04 AM)

well, in regards to the content of the article, sony is allowed to dream, aren't they? but on a relative note, i believe that the ps3 as the lead platform is the best for everyone. i mean, as a 360 fanboy, i love seeing games not working right on the ps3 while they work fine on the 360 but, this isn't the way to conduct a business. as a developer, they should release games that work out of the box. if i only had a ps3, i would prefer to wait (delayed on ps3) and get a working product than rushing to the store, bring a game home and get stuck at one point then having to wait for a patch to be rls'd so i could continue. also, i'd like to see more trophy support for ps3 games.

That bit in bold says everything about your whole post. You don't have the experience. You hear some whisper by an unknown blogger on the internet and think it's fact.
I have 28 titles for the PS3 now and not one game have I had to stop and wait for a patch to be released. If you are going to make a judgement then you need to make sure you have experience of it or are correct in what you state. You are incorrect.
In case you didn't realise most games have patches added these days after release. what do you imagine the 360 is doing when you insert your new disc and a message pops up saying you need an update to play the game??

[ludacrisvp]

QUOTE(little_mak2002 @ Nov 5 2008, 05:54 PM)

Chancer, is that what that means, its updating my xbox.  Wow, I thought it was downloading my email.

Wow, I love how there is never a shortage of smartasses on this forum.

[Chancer]

QUOTE(ludacrisvp @ Nov 6 2008, 12:43 AM)

Wow, I love how there is never a shortage of smartasses on this forum.

usually the ones returning with a new account having previously been banned.
It's a bit like having to constantly wipe dog shit off your shoe. They follow your posts looking for opportunities to make a smart comment about something mentioned in a post.
 I don't think there is a tablet for immature people.

QUOTE

Chancer, is that what that means, its updating my xbox. Wow, I thought it was downloading my email.

Glad I have been able to enlighten you. I am surprised you wanted to admit to being uneducated on a matter that everyone more or less knows.
 You being at university as well.

[Elemino]

To be honest, if the PS3 has all this available raw horsepower... I have yet to see it. The graphics really aren't that much better than the 360. The biggest difference I know of is the disc size, as the PS3 is the only system not using DVD. Don't get me wrong, LBP looks great, but I think the xbox could render that game just as well. In fact, the only real difference I've ever noticed is cars in GRID looked shinier on the PS3 demo than the 360 demo. Then again, I think the 360 demos are intentionally dulled down to reduce space.

[m_hael]

Whether one console is more powerful than the other is not worth arguing as the subject is flawed at its base; they are radically different.

What is worth mentioning is the methods used to program.

360 is DAMNED easy to program for, there is a single application (Visual Studio) that handles compiling of everything and debugging. There are ample examples on almost every possible application both in the SDK and in DirectX land; yes they are VERY similar. There are also many many many users who can discuss various techniques over open forums DUE to the fact that the console is largely DirectX 9.1 AND therefore an open platform (not true for 360 specifics). The CPU is a well known beast and the programming paradigms in use are relatively well known.

It is easy.

Cell is not so easy. It uses an arcane compiler with a separate debugger and no editor, it uses yet another compiler (with separate programs) for its spu execution and it took many years for the debugger to even be capable of debugging the SPU apps.

Into Ps3 specific land you have a gimped GPU resulting in complications with vertex processing and a requirement for specific code in pixel shaders along with a memory split that exacerbates the existing issues. Add to that the fact that the tools are still "in progress" doesn't help anyone (even years into the cycle).


So what you have is one console that can do more on the GPU than the other which in turn can do more with its CPU than the latter.

So the choice isn't "do you downgrade" for 360... the choice is... which is easier for you based on your teams experience, your games requirements and your financial outlook.

Personally i would always lead on ps3 simply because it being the hardest means it requires the most learning and said learning will shorten the dev cycle. Leading with it means you write FOR ps3 and code written FOR ps3 will work VERY well on 360... so you tailor to the pain in the ass without hindering the less painful console.

[Foe-hammer]

QUOTE(m_hael @ Nov 6 2008, 08:07 AM)

Whether one console is more powerful than the other is not worth arguing as the subject is flawed at its base; they are radically different.

What is worth mentioning is the methods used to program.

360 is DAMNED easy to program for, there is a single application (Visual Studio) that handles compiling of everything and debugging. There are ample examples on almost every possible application both in the SDK and in DirectX land; yes they are VERY similar. There are also many many many users who can discuss various techniques over open forums DUE to the fact that the console is largely DirectX 9.1 AND therefore an open platform (not true for 360 specifics). The CPU is a well known beast and the programming paradigms in use are relatively well known.

It is easy.

Cell is not so easy. It uses an arcane compiler with a separate debugger and no editor, it uses yet another compiler (with separate programs) for its spu execution and it took many years for the debugger to even be capable of debugging the SPU apps.

Into Ps3 specific land you have a gimped GPU resulting in complications with vertex processing and a requirement for specific code in pixel shaders along with a memory split that exacerbates the existing issues. Add to that the fact that the tools are still "in progress" doesn't help anyone (even years into the cycle).
So what you have is one console that can do more on the GPU than the other which in turn can do more with its CPU than the latter.

So the choice isn't "do you downgrade" for 360... the choice is... which is easier for you based on your teams experience, your games requirements and your financial outlook.

Personally i would always lead on ps3 simply because it being the hardest means it requires the most learning and said learning will shorten the dev cycle. Leading with it means you write FOR ps3 and code written FOR ps3 will work VERY well on 360... so you tailor to the pain in the ass without hindering the less painful console.

Thanks for the experienced info, again.  Your posts are always looked forward to.

[throwingks]

QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Nov 6 2008, 10:44 PM)

Thanks for the experienced info, again.  Your posts are always looked forward to.

+1

[bucko]

If you guys are comparing consoles, the only thing that boggles my mind is why the Text on the 360 doesn't appear to be as sharp as the PS3. Event at dashboard Level. Both my consoles are hooked up by HDMI, but for sure I have a cheap HDTV (since I'm a student) but I can't figure out why PS3 fonts seem more crisp. Is it something to do with the way anti aliasing is handled? I've noticed it on other TV's as well, maybe it's a PAL60 thing. Hopefully NXE will be more crisper, I don't really notice it much in games because of all the motion blurriness or do they just use a different font? Ta...

[m_hael]

there are many ways to render a font.

* vector based using complex pixel shaders
* bitmap based where the entire font exists as a UV map within large texture
* distance field based where the entire font exists as a distance field allowing smoother edges

i would guess that your issue is largely due to the USE of fonts rather than the machine.

[TexT]

PS3 may have a stronger CPU but 360's Xenos GPU is better than PS3 RSX.. if you to believe what 3rd party developers say.

RSX can use  cell for calculations to keep up with 360 but that's telling itself.. developers could be using this extra processing for other things.

The advantage both consoles have over each other is canceled out.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(m_hael @ Nov 6 2008, 10:07 AM)

So what you have is one console that can do more on the GPU than the other which in turn can do more with its CPU than the latter.

I know what you mean (one can do more on GPU while other can do more on CPU), but how it's worded here almost sounds like one could do more on it's GPU thus freeing up the CPU to do more than the other.

Just pointing out that it took me a few seconds to grasp the wording  

Regardless of this pointless bickering over what's probably a 10% difference in power (uneducated guess here), I'm just happy to see these systems pushed further and further.  Can't wait to see how games look/run at the peak of this generation.

[glitch666]

QUOTE(wassco @ Nov 21 2008, 02:38 PM)

Fight night on ps3 blows 360 away, same for gta 4 (both HD on 52 inch tv), its all about processing power and rendering.

I also own both and I will agree with you on GTA4, I have done the same tests, but I found fight night to be dull and to bright on the PS3. Both were tested on my friends hd tv over hdmi(don't recall the size of it at the moment). I tried different settings and the 360 looked better.

[m_hael]

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Nov 21 2008, 02:10 AM)

I know what you mean (one can do more on GPU while other can do more on CPU), but how it's worded here almost sounds like one could do more on it's GPU thus freeing up the CPU to do more than the other.

Just pointing out that it took me a few seconds to grasp the wording  

lol - sorry, programmer brain applies & tracks context in everything.