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[PS3Scene]

Is the GPU holding the PS3 back? Posted by XanTium | 11-6-2008 0:47 EST

From bruceongames.com: GTA IV, quite famously, was delayed from being a 2007 release to being a 2008 release because of problems Rockstar were having with the Playstation 3 version of the game. And now Codemasters admit that whilst the Microsoft Xbox 360 version of Grid runs at a solid 30 fps the Playstation 3 version doesn't. These are just two of the latest of a long stream of disappointments with the comparative performance of the PS3. What is happening here? For the PS3 Sony wanted to have a technology advantage so they developed, in conjunction with Toshiba and IBM, the Cell processor. A clean sheet design with many innovations this took $400 million and four years to develop. The intention was to use two of these in the PS3, one as CPU and one as GPU. However at the last minute Sony realised that the Cell GPU wasn't up to the job so they went to nVidia and bought their 7800GTX GPU. This gave them a number of disadvantages:     * It wasn't designed or optimised as a console GPU. It was designed and optimised as a PC GPU.     * The whole architecture of the console was compromised by the last minute change.     * The 7800GTX has less raw processing power than the Microsoft Xbox 360 GPU. Full Story: bruceongames.com

[njgsng2004]

My only response is

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/muhaha.gif) !Duh! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/muhaha.gif)

(rant)The two gpus are a generation apart, anyone reading this site and is suprised is a n00biot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleeping.gif) (/rant)

[openxdkman]

It depends on the point of view of the coder actually :

1) The coder only wants to code for a classic CPU and a classic GPU.
In that case his code will run better on 360.

2) The coder spends extra time in coding for CPU(PPU)+NxSPU+GPU.
In that case his code is very likely to run better on PS3.
Principle : you do simpler but faster processing in the GPU, but you compensate with preliminary processing through SPU's.
(Remember Shadow of the colossus, appearing very late on PS2. It took time to master hw.)

But there is a factor that is annoying for both 360 and PS3 : the limits that do not really permit to do full 1080p stuff... There is always a decision to make to create graphics at lower resolution, then upscale by any way... Because none of these consoles are really ready for true 1080p. So depending on which compromise is done, results and comparisons will change.

Still these machines are great because of the ratio Technology over Price.
(With a personal strong dislike for the faulty 360 hardware design, at least until a strong and reliable  full 45nm chipsets board model appears)

This post has been edited by openxdkman: Jun 11 2008, 11:25 AM

[Muzzakus]

QUOTE(openxdkman @ Jun 11 2008, 10:17 AM)

It depends on the point of view of the coder actually :

1) The coder only wants to code for a classic CPU and a classic GPU.
In that case his code will run better on 360.

2) The coder spends extra time in coding for CPU(PPU)+NxSPU+GPU.
In that case his code is very likely to run better on PS3.
Principle : you do simpler but faster processing in the GPU, but you compensate with preliminary processing through SPU's.
(Remember Shadow of the colossus, appearing very late on PS2. It took time to master hw.)

But there is a factor that is annoying for both 360 and PS3 : the limits that do not really permit to do full 1080p stuff... There is always a decision to make to create graphics at lower resolution, then upscale by any way... Because none of these consoles are really ready for true 1080p. So depending on which compromise is done, results and comparisons will change.

Still these machines are great because of the ratio Technology over Price.
(With a personal strong dislike for the faulty 360 hardware design, at least until a strong and reliable  full 45nm chipsets board model appears)

All these theories of the SPU's doing prelim gfx etc.  All I can say is dream on.  These sorts of optimisations could just as well be right at home on the 360's 3 core 6 threaded CPU architecture.  And who's to say quality engines right now don't do this?

I have both systems, and the if the state of this "1yr newer" console wasn't such a joke, it would be sad.  

I truly feel sorry for the people that fell for Sony's bombastic hype, and still keep carrying the torch?  WTF, wake up - the 360 is a games machine, the PS3 is only pretending to be one.  I still can't beleive that people can't look past the Sony badge, it must be the only thing keeping this dog alive.  

[twistedsymphony]

yawn...

The story of how the PS3 got it's GPU is all stuff that was known soon after the specs were released long before the console even hit stores.

... of course when it was reported before all the sony fans stuck fingers in their ears and shouted "LALALALALALALALA"....

now that the poor planing has produced rotten fruits it's suddenly news and a surprise that this is what happened  


If you want a system to produce amazing graphics... you start with a graphics chip and you build the rest of the machine around that.

I've seen ancient PCs run with machines costing gigabucks by simply installing top end graphics hardware... it's that simple.

Truth be told as much as we're interested in good AI and physics 95% of the games out there still use scripting that could be run on a P2 without breaking a sweat... even the few games that DO make use of realistic physics and AI don't get their dues because people are so hung up on graphics.

about the only thing the CELL has done for Sony is cost them a whole lot of money and given them good numbers on Folding@Home...

in all honesty have you seen a single PS3 game where the developers have said flat out "this would be completely impossible without the CELL"?

[EvilWays]

QUOTE(openxdkman @ Jun 11 2008, 11:17 AM)

Because none of these consoles are really ready for true 1080p.

That would be because of a lack of enough memory. Both consoles have a total of 512MB of RAM (unified on the 360, 256 Main + 256 Graphics on the PS3), and subtract whatever for kernel and system use, you don't have enough. PCs (particularly, gaming PCs) get away with it from having more RAM available (and is upgradeable), plus a graphics card with dedicated memory. Nowadays, you see 512MB graphic cards being mainstream and >512MB graphic cards becoming a bit more popular for hardcore gamers.

In the PS3's case, 256MB isn't a whole lot of room for models, textures, AND fancy graphic effects at 1080p (and in some cases, even 720p...GTA4 for PS3 is 640p upscaled IIRC). At least there is separate RAM everything else...unlike the 360, where it's a case of juggling code, graphics, sounds, etc in one pool of memory. Many developers seem to be able to pull off that trick, but again, even developers admitted that it's a trade-off between 1080p and basically no AA and whatnot, or 720p and at least some AA and whatnot. IIRC, Halo 3 is also a 640p game scaled up since Bungie decided to utilize dual frame buffer trickery for the lighting scheme and detailing they wanted.


And as far as porting, I wish developers (including middleware devs) would actually take the time to take advantage of the native hardware so as to truly push the performance of a particular title.

[m_hael]

i gave bruce the real info on this early today... hopefully he'll correct his blog soon.

In short.. its ill-informed... but bruce isn't a tech guy so he has to believe those who talk to him.

[man_the_king]

QUOTE(m_hael @ Jun 11 2008, 11:03 AM)

i gave bruce the real info on this early today... hopefully he'll correct his blog soon.

In short.. its ill-informed... but bruce isn't a tech guy so he has to believe those who talk to him.

Hey m_hael

     Ignoring the "There I told you so..s" and "No, that's not true..s" from the other posters on this forum, I would like to get to know more facts. I was wondering if you could email me whatever you sent to the blogger. My email address is [email protected]. If you can post the same here, that's fine as well.

Regards,
     MTK

[apexad]

The PS3's GPU is holding it back from competing with the 360, maybe.  Look at the Wii though.  You might argue that the Wii is not about graphics and that's fine.  However, let's not forget that the PS3 has had the SIXAXIS since it's initial release.

Take a game like GTA4.  Sure it might look a litter better on a 360, but the SIXAXIS makes the game all that much better to actually play.

It all comes down to what you want, and the I think the PS3 is definitely the middle ground console this generation.

I think what has held the PS3 back is the price, pure and simple.

[hardcandy]

From January 2007, Gabe knew what he was talking about. The PS3 is nice, I own one, but the 360 is just so convenient and the games run good on it.
The PS3 version of Alone in the Dark 2008 is delayed until the fall because the developer was having difficulty getting good frame rates to run on the PS3. They started all the versions at the same time. The PC, Wii and 360 versions are being launched June 24 in the USA. They have no problems.  

QUOTE

 Valve Software's chief Gabe Newell has unleashed a stinging attack on PS3, saying Sony should cancel the console and start all over again.

"The PS3 is a total disaster on so many levels, I think It's really clear that Sony lost track of what customers and what developers wanted," Newell reportedly said in an interview with Game Informer.

He continued: "I'd say, even at this late date, they should just cancel it and do a do over. Just say, 'This was a horrible disaster and we're sorry and we're going to stop selling this and stop trying to convince people to develop for it'."

It's a different story with Nintendo, however, Newell revealing he really likes "everything that Nintendo is doing."

"The happy story is the Wii," he said. "I'm betting that by Christmas of next year, the Wii has a larger installed base than the 360. Other people think I'm crazy."

CVG-website

This post has been edited by hardcandy: Jun 11 2008, 06:06 PM

[m_hael]

QUOTE(man_the_king @ Jun 11 2008, 11:25 AM)

Hey m_hael

     Ignoring the "There I told you so..s" and "No, that's not true..s" from the other posters on this forum, I would like to get to know more facts. I was wondering if you could email me whatever you sent to the blogger. My email address is [email protected]. If you can post the same here, that's fine as well.

Regards,
     MTK

I'm afraid i can't do that... what i posted to Bruce is covered under NDA of which he has signed many covering him. The forum i posted it on is private only.

sorry.

[PowderDay]

Games run better on the 360 as of now, and some of the more recent releases run the same on both platforms. Considering the 360 is closer to what dev's are used to programming for then the PS3, of course this is going to be the case. Now, give the devs time to learn how to properly code for the ps3 (ie, no big installs, using the HD as a crutch), and you will see much better games comming out on the PS3. This has always been the case when next gen hardware is introduced. It takes time for the dev's to catch up and really push the console.

All you fanboys just wait. Theres a reason 360's are popular amoung teens, and the PS3 is popular amoung adults.

[m_hael]

QUOTE(PowderDay @ Jun 11 2008, 12:45 PM)

Theres a reason 360's are popular amoung teens, and the PS3 is popular amoung adults.

adults have more money.

[man_the_king]

QUOTE(m_hael @ Jun 11 2008, 12:45 PM)

I'm afraid i can't do that... what i posted to Bruce is covered under NDA of which he has signed many covering him. The forum i posted it on is private only.

sorry.
 

No problem - Quite understandable. I would have liked to know more, but oh well...

Anyway, I hope Bruce (the blogger) corrects/updates his blog according to what was posted to him so that us non-NDA folks can take a gander at it as well

Thanks for following up though

[hardcandy]

QUOTE

All you fanboys just wait. Theres a reason 360's are popular amoung teens, and the PS3 is popular amoung adults.

Where do you get that info? Might it have something to do with adults buying it for the BD player and not games?